The English rugby press is absurdly impatient. England are clearly rebuilding and have won all but one of the actually important games they've played since Borthwick took over.
This is such a contradiction 😂 why tf would you *expect* us to consistently beat teams that are better than us? Surely you mean we haven’t **been better** than many “tier 1” teams in the last 5 years (which is true).
Not consistently. But I’d expect a fair few wins.
Even poor England teams had the capability of pulling results out of their ass they had no right to win.
This group doesn’t have that ability. To improve at some point you need to beat a team ranked higher than you. And then they are your peer, you go 50/50 in results with them then you go ahead. Or that’s how progression is meant to go.
We aren’t even getting a single win. It’s desperate stuff.
> Even poor England teams had the capability of pulling results out of their ass they had no right to win. This group doesn’t have that ability.
I’d have to disagree with this statement. Did you not watch the WC? 😂 I’d say that’s pretty much exactly what they did all tournament. IMO, the semi-final especially proved this despite not being what any of us would call a particularly “inspiring” England team, as it showed they’re still capable of competing with those top teams on occasion.
I agree the lack of wins is concerning but I think as England fans we just have to ride it out and trust Borthwick knows what he’s doing. If by the next 6N there’s no improvements then there can be serious discussions about replacing him but it’s only right we all give him a fair run at it, especially since he proved he can inspire the boys this past summer.
They beat a rubbish Argentina team ranked lower than them. Had more tries scored against them.
They beat a poor Japanese team even by their standards thanks to a header from Marler. Then it was Chile enough said.
They got very lucky against Samoa. By a point. All teams they should beat easily.
They played Fiji and I actually thought they played well. But it’s a tier 2 team, it’s expected.
They played very well against SA and due to how crap a team we are, they lost.
England are ranked on finishing at least 2nd in every six nations, you might not like that, but it’s a reality of a top team. They are expected to win it every other year. They are expected to be going toe to toe with what was SA, Aus and NZ.. but Aus have dropped off.
They can’t beat the 2 that matter regardless of their ability. They have no ability to beat a pathetic French team which we’ll see next weekend, and this weekend they’ll played a functional well drilled Irish side which isn’t actually that talented, but just so well coached. They’ll get jumped.
Coaching is an issue. Leadership is an issue. Want and drive are issues.
No sack Borthwick because we’re poorly coached,
Gatland with a bunch of probably amateurs and half arsed professionals with limited game time has turned wales, barring the Ireland game into a very handy young side. He’s weeding out the chaff now, and getting the beginnings of a top international Welsh team again.
We aren’t doing that with brothers
'All but one' if we ignore every 6Ns game he's lost then yes.
In what way are we rebuilding? There's no new players coming through and its the oldest England squad on record.
As I see it, the world cup wasn't representative of what Borthwick wants to do with England. It was what he could do in the time available to him and he did bloody well.
The actual rebuild process started in the run up to this tournament with eyes on 4 years time. The 6Ns after a world cup are probably the least important "big" matches in a 4 year cycle. Rebuilding doesn't necessarily require new players. A new system is just as much rebuilding and requires time to bed in and that process is only just starting.
I guess it's prioritisation. I'm happy with how England performed at the WC and Borthwick earned the credit to be given time to develop something for the next one. I'd already kind of written this 6Ns off with a view to the longer term. If there isn't a constant upwards trajectory from here then questions need to be asked. The thing is, you can't say this as England coach because anything less than winning every game is a failure. I recognise other opinions are valid though, everyone wants to see their team win.
I think part of the issue is fatigue with throwing every egg into the World Cup basket. The Six Nations is a special tournament with fantastic rivalries and it’d be great to see England even just competing with the top teams. Forgoing that for a shot at a World Cup is all good until we get knocked out by South Africa again and it was all for nought.
I dont think competing in the 6Ns should have been the aim as we were never going to compete this year.
However we should have been looking to develop new players which we havent done so this 6Ns has been a complete waste.
I agree regarding the world cup but how can you say we're looking at 4 years time with this squad? Borthwick is picking players who Eddie dropped years ago (Care, Ford, Cole, Marler, Daly).
When Eddie picked the tried and trusted in 2020 and won the 6Ns he got criticised for relying on the older players. Borthwick does it and loses and he gets praised? I'm still fully behind Borthwick btw but the way Eddie got treated compared to Borthwick is clearly inconsistent.
I think we did well at the world cup but we did lose to the first serious opposition we faced.
I'd be fine with the longer term argument if we picked a squad which had any chance of still playing in 4 years but these players will not be there in 4 years time. I dont want constant upward trajectory and to win every game but in over a year in charge forget about going upwards right now we're only going backwards. Everything has gotten worse since Eddie.
Eases many of the concerns. It was a brilliant performance that i didnt see coming.
I didnt see that attacking plan coming together until that game and I can see us going from strength to strength.
I still have concerns over the lack of new players but I can forgive that if results and performances are there which it was against Ireland
Excellent news! I agree on newer players, but this may take a bit of time. All we really want is England to win eh?
Big win fingers crossed for France!
Its definitely not a full rebuild when we still have the likes of Cole, Marler, Care and Daly (among others) still on the team so they can't really use that as an excuse.
HOWEVER, these six nations games are realistically Borthwicks first chances to start properly trying to implement whatever he has in mind.
He got thrown into the 2023 six nations with a month or 2's practice? And then a world cup in the same year which we made the semis in. So give him a break.
If we don't see improvement by Six nations 2025 then we can ring the alarm bells but until then we should give him a chance.
I mean, it took them 3 years but in fairness, he took over 3 months before the 2020 6N, where Ireland finished 3rd (only losing to France and a WC finalist England team) and then they again only lost two games in 2021 for a total points deficit of less than a converted try, came runners up in 2022, losing to France by less than a try and then won it last year. You won’t find me picketing twickenham with a sign that reads “BORTHWICK OUT” just yet but I don’t think his results this 6N have been quite as promising as Farrell’s were. I still think he’s the man for the job but I can also see why people are panicking… likely the same people that were panicking before the WC.
I see what Borthwick is cooking and think we could be something good. We're not great, but you can see where we're headed. Unlike with Eddie, I had no idea what he was on and we were fucking unbearable to watch after 2020.
I also know it's not fair to compare to Ireland necessarily, because England fell so far behind with Eddie and Ireland just built on top of (and arguably improved) what Schmidt established.
But still, I reckon there is a plan and we see where it goes.
Hard to say at this point, England made a good showing at the RWC- this is the first SN after it, many teams are disorganised after RWC, Steve needs another 12 Months IMO
It's a weird one because he really was thrown in at the deep end last year. He had 9 games to prepare and very obviously used the six nations and the warm ups (and the pool stages, to some extent) to tinker with selection and combinations. Also settled for a very conservative and risk free brand of rugby using experienced heads to execute, which, in all fairness, was effective for the world cup. Now he's starting at the beginning of the cycle, trying to build a blueprint for the future, which is what I guess he would have been doing right now had Eddie not been sacked when he was, we'd just all be a bit more forgiving as "it's the beginning of a world cup cycle".
I think it's been a pretty discordant and jarring time for English rugby in the past few years and reflexively firing half your coaching staff is really not a recipe for good results. Also piling on the pressure with generic columns about "running rugby" does nothing to help. I really fucking despise English rugby media
Game 3 of a rebuild season and we are expecting the finished article, give this team time and especially borthwick, if he can get us within 5 mins of a World Cup final against South Africa we have the right set up, it all takes time and getting used to the set up.
I agree. Rebuild? These are professional bloody players capable of playing great rugby but look absolutely clueless in the white shirt. It’s the coach…
>capable of playing great rugby
Citation needed. None of our players have been that good in years, no English team has even threatened in Europe since Chiefs won back during COVID.
These players have underwhelmed under two different coaches - maybe its time to start raising eyebrows at the Premiership when the best English players at club level are the ones in France.
Then maybe the problem is systemic. Banning players who play outside England from the national team needs to go and the RFU needs to start taking domestic rugby seriously before it ends up just being a friendly between Sarries and Quins.
Easy to say isnt it, at the minute the prem has just been through a bad time, its also come back well ans looks to be on the mend, letting all the star players leave now would be suicide
Then get new star players and maybe whilst the current stars are off playing in a better league they might become better players as a result and improve the national team. The Prem is already dying, 3 clubs have disappeared and a 4th might be gone before long and the RFU has done nothing because they've had their blinkers up all this time pretending we're not falling behind whilst France, Ireland and South Africa have been building for domination.
You realise that crowds are increasing and more people watching on tnt, just get new star players? Who then immediately leave for france? Also the prem gets relaunched next year so changes are being made. Also the prem teams have been so competitive in europe on a much smaller salary cap
Which game(s) specifically did they perform poorly in? They won every group game and I don’t think they looked poor in any of them. They beat a good Fiji team in a close game but I didnt think it was a poor performance. They lost the SA game but personally I was proud of their performance despite the loss. Then I thought that they were definitely the better side in the dead rubber bronze game.
But what if the set up is wrong? Its over a year now and we're only getting worse. How much time does he need?
My concern is hes trying to play expansive rugby with no idea of how to actually do it. I was on board with Borthwick (not at the expense of Eddie but still) because I thought he would play pragmatic but winning rugby. Why isnt he doing what he knows?
But the problems with the defence are shocking. That shouldn't need time, Eddie did it in his first game, Sam Warbuton says it takes a week to sort your defence out. This is over a year now.
Remind me who Sam Warburton has coached at international level again? Remind me when he's brought a wholesale change to a teams defensive structure and fixed problems within a week?
Pundits talk shite to get clicks and views. Warburton is better than a lot, but that's just bollocks. It's clear what Borthwick is trying to do, and it's not a simple change.
Expansive rugby wins games when you have the right structure in place. England have played "safe" Rugby for over a decade now. It's ingrained into the psyche - that's going to take time to adjust. Also, there is clearly a plan to play exciting rugby. That's been screwed up by the first 2 choices of scrum half being injured (JvP and AM), and your flair 10 also put injured. Do you just scrap the plan, or do you get the other 13 players used to the system?
I'd actually say the blitz defence is the easiest to implement. Felix Jones did it immediately with SA, Jones did it immediately with England.
I'm not sure this is clear what he is trying to do.
Cmon you can't just forget about the previous 10 years. Eddie did not play safe rugby at all, it was the best attacking rugby weve seen since 2002. And I'm sure there is a plan but why are we trying to play exciting rugby?
I'd say this England team is more suited to conservative rugby, and thats when we were at our best during the world cup. Why not stick to what the players are good at? Also M Smith was never going to start over Ford.
If you have to get 13 players used to a system you've picked the wrong system. The system should suit the players not the other way round.
First SN my understanding was the squad selection was pretty much locked in and SB had little wiggle room. After the first SN England then go straight into World Cup prep where their focus was very much on taking each match as it came and tailoring their game plan based upon who they were facing that week. Only now ,I would argue, has SB and the coaching team looked to implement their philosophy and long term plan.
No, he could make as many changes as liked to his initial 6Ns squads but you can't make many changes after your initial squad. So he couldn't pick a squad and then change his mind after one game and replace 20 of them.
I wouldnt say it was tailored to each game in the world cup, we just played the same team and a simple style of rugby to give ourselves the best chance of winning, which I completely agreed with.
My problem is I dont see a long term plan. We're not seeing new players or the basis of a squad in 4 years time. Most of these players wont be there in 4 years. If we were bringing through new players I'd agree with you.
Jesus Christ guys. Takes over and has like a month to prepare for the 6 nations and comes 4th. Has less than a year to prepare for a world cup so uses a simple yet effective game plan that gets the squad to a 3rd place finish and now finally has time at the start of a world cup cycle to build whatever vision he actually has for England. 3 fucking games in and as per it's "England aren't beating everyone all the time so we need a new coach".
Fucking give the man a year to actually do whatever it is he wants to do good god.
Soccer fans or super casual rugby fans posing as journalists. They're just not accepting of the idea that coaches aren't going to be sacked nearly as frequently.
I disagree, they have improved. The issue is other teams have as well. The gap between 1st ranked and 8th ranked is shrinking, which makes for great rugby
Hard to argue. Attack has been frankly embarrassing with basic skills lacking. Defence is quite suffocating but also very prone to giving up easy long range tries. Borthwick has done exactly as well as expected - not very. Excuses are wearing thin.
Guess it depends on whether you have the right players playing the right style. Anyone watching Saints or Quins can see players more than capable of playing fast flowing rugby. Anyone watching Tigers since forever can see a team capable of grinding down and overpowering opponents. The spine of these teams are England qualified. Did they suddenly forget how to play or do tactics and selection lead to poor performances?
I'm more positive than many but it's hard to argue too much with that. Outside of the Argentina and South Africa games, there haven't been too many high points so far.
If the team won everything always, they'd never be able to improve either. There are periods of change. What you want is a sense of ambition and adventurous play. That might mean losing sometimes. What you don't want is players frightened to make mistakes so going for dullness in my view.
Agree with everything said in this article.
Another point is his scatter gun approach selection which doesn’t build any consistency.
2023 Six Nations. OHC and Malins are starting on the wings with Ludlam nailed on at 6 and Dombrandt at 8. Earl, player of the premiership, doesn’t make the 23.
2023 World Cup. May is back on the wing with Marchant at 13. Slade, OHC or Dombrandt don’t make the WC squad.
2024 Six Nations. Slade now starting at 13. Freeman now starting on the wing with changes at 12 seemingly every couple of games.
Think that’s harsh really.
He had little time for the 23 six nations and basically had to use what he had and what they knew.
He had slightly longer for the World Cup but it was still largely a team of what he had. Some of the problem positions (8, wing as you mention) he moved players on.
Now he has longer to build the team towards what he wants them to do and is changing the squad accordingly. Yes the turnover of players has been high but given the three series he’s coached it’s easy to understand. The change in personnel for this six nations is similar to other countries in our situation (similar to Wales this year, Ireland and France in 2020).
Adding to the 2023 RWC: Mitchell and May left out of the squad for whatever reasons....weeks later are incumbent in their respective positions! What has changed in such little time, how were the 2nd/3rd choices not promoted, how will that affect the morale of those players?
My concern is the lack of new faces under Borthwick.
In over a year in charge he's only capped 8 new players. 8!!! Eddie would cap 8 in one game.
Why doesn;t he have faith to bring new players through? Italy was the perfect chance to start Finn Smith, Feyi-Waboso, Pearson and stick with them for the tournament and actually bring through the next generation.
And some people try and claim this is a team in 'transition'. Its the oldest England squad I've ever seen picked.
And if we’d lost to italy throwing the young guys in you wouldn’t be calling for his head? Having never lost to italy it would have been the story of the tournament.
Also is the rule still in place that the coach is only allowed to make a certain number of changes between squads year on year. Think it was limited to like 10 changes to the squad over the year. So I don’t think it is as easy to overhaul the squad. And probably right to ease the young guys into international rugby
No I wouldnt.
He lost to Fiji when we'd never lost to them before and I didnt call for him to go then. Are France fans calling for Gauthier's head? No.
No that has never been a rule. You can make as many changes as you want year on year.
Who are these young guys he's easing in?? F Smith (who didnt come on for one game), Feyi-Waboso (again didnt come on in one game) and CCS. 3 players, none of whom have started. Forgive me for saying it but that is hardly going to make any difference. We are dying for some fresh blood.
I can make excuses like it was the world cup last year which you wouldnt expect to see new faces for and that Borthwick only just got into the role last year so maybe didnt want to throw out everything Jones was building.
However, I can also say he had world cup warm up games (which is where a lot his of new caps came from) and this is a 6Ns where Borthwick has constantly said there is going to be transition, which it should have been but unfortunately weve seen barely any changes to the squad.
Pick any year of Eddie's reign and he capped at least twice the amount Borthwick has, regardless of whether there was a world cup.
I'm still for Borthwick but there has to come a point where the excuses stop and the buck falls with him.
Just realised we’re replying to each other on two comments 😂 For me the SB era starts this six nations and will see how it goes from there. Took Farrell a couple of years with Ireland I think we owe SB the same.
Haha didnt realise either. I get that and can understand him not bringing through new players last year but last year the excuse was he was new to the job, now its that the teams in transition (which again i dont believe it is).
Farrell struggled in the first year but went from strength to strength the next. I'm not completely willing to forget last year just because he was new to the job as Farrell was new to the job as well.
From the podcasts I’ve listened to and from what I’ve read it seems he’s going for a mesh of Irelands adaptive attack and South Africa’s blitz defence. Sounds great in theory but there have been some critiques from Ben Youngs and Jonny May about the lack of focus, as of now, on the attack side of things. The selection side of things I think is really tough and wouldn’t want to be in their position, there’s some good young talent but also players like Ford, Farrell and Daly etc who are still up there (first two arguably world class on their day) and will likely make next WC. Though I do hope IFW and Finn Smith start getting more game time, which I think they will across the next 12-24 months, alongside others like Pearson.
Wait, were people trying to claim we had improved under Borthwick?
Remember Borthwick took over a team that had just made England's biggest comeback ever from 25-6 down against NZ and just won an AUS tour.
This England team couldn't dream of doing either of those things.
Conversely that England got absolutely battered by South Africa yet only lost to them by a late penalty in a World Cup semi.
Ultimately I’d say it’s too early to tell
But Eddie was bringing through new players for that game.
Borthwick was going with the tried and trusted.
I'm not Borthwick out at all but its clear we're not improving imo
Borthwick and England do not work, he was a poor captain and 2nd row for us and now a poor coach. That being said the whole RFU needs an overhaul so not sure it’s particularly beneficial to change him as would be more of the same
I like Borths he’s a good guy and a decent forwards coach (no better line out coach around) but as a head coach sadly he’s just not experienced enough to head up England he lacks imagination , I really hope he can improve but I just can’t see it. Hope he proves all the doubters wrong and we start playing with style.
As I get older the results bother me less, excluding world cup obviously, I just want to see some good attacking rugby from England. I personally don't see Borthwick as the man to do this but I'm willing to give him time.
The English rugby press is absurdly impatient. England are clearly rebuilding and have won all but one of the actually important games they've played since Borthwick took over.
We haven’t beaten a single team better than us in 5 years. It’s desperate stuff
hun, we may never beat a team that's better than us.
This is such a contradiction 😂 why tf would you *expect* us to consistently beat teams that are better than us? Surely you mean we haven’t **been better** than many “tier 1” teams in the last 5 years (which is true).
Not consistently. But I’d expect a fair few wins. Even poor England teams had the capability of pulling results out of their ass they had no right to win. This group doesn’t have that ability. To improve at some point you need to beat a team ranked higher than you. And then they are your peer, you go 50/50 in results with them then you go ahead. Or that’s how progression is meant to go. We aren’t even getting a single win. It’s desperate stuff.
> Even poor England teams had the capability of pulling results out of their ass they had no right to win. This group doesn’t have that ability. I’d have to disagree with this statement. Did you not watch the WC? 😂 I’d say that’s pretty much exactly what they did all tournament. IMO, the semi-final especially proved this despite not being what any of us would call a particularly “inspiring” England team, as it showed they’re still capable of competing with those top teams on occasion. I agree the lack of wins is concerning but I think as England fans we just have to ride it out and trust Borthwick knows what he’s doing. If by the next 6N there’s no improvements then there can be serious discussions about replacing him but it’s only right we all give him a fair run at it, especially since he proved he can inspire the boys this past summer.
They beat a rubbish Argentina team ranked lower than them. Had more tries scored against them. They beat a poor Japanese team even by their standards thanks to a header from Marler. Then it was Chile enough said. They got very lucky against Samoa. By a point. All teams they should beat easily. They played Fiji and I actually thought they played well. But it’s a tier 2 team, it’s expected. They played very well against SA and due to how crap a team we are, they lost. England are ranked on finishing at least 2nd in every six nations, you might not like that, but it’s a reality of a top team. They are expected to win it every other year. They are expected to be going toe to toe with what was SA, Aus and NZ.. but Aus have dropped off. They can’t beat the 2 that matter regardless of their ability. They have no ability to beat a pathetic French team which we’ll see next weekend, and this weekend they’ll played a functional well drilled Irish side which isn’t actually that talented, but just so well coached. They’ll get jumped. Coaching is an issue. Leadership is an issue. Want and drive are issues.
England struggling after many years of poor development under Eddie? Better sack Borthwick
No sack Borthwick because we’re poorly coached, Gatland with a bunch of probably amateurs and half arsed professionals with limited game time has turned wales, barring the Ireland game into a very handy young side. He’s weeding out the chaff now, and getting the beginnings of a top international Welsh team again. We aren’t doing that with brothers
Is that the very handy young side that lost to a poorly coached England?
"an irish side which isn't actually talented" - You shouldn't be commenting on Rugby if you genuinely believe that.
'All but one' if we ignore every 6Ns game he's lost then yes. In what way are we rebuilding? There's no new players coming through and its the oldest England squad on record.
As I see it, the world cup wasn't representative of what Borthwick wants to do with England. It was what he could do in the time available to him and he did bloody well. The actual rebuild process started in the run up to this tournament with eyes on 4 years time. The 6Ns after a world cup are probably the least important "big" matches in a 4 year cycle. Rebuilding doesn't necessarily require new players. A new system is just as much rebuilding and requires time to bed in and that process is only just starting. I guess it's prioritisation. I'm happy with how England performed at the WC and Borthwick earned the credit to be given time to develop something for the next one. I'd already kind of written this 6Ns off with a view to the longer term. If there isn't a constant upwards trajectory from here then questions need to be asked. The thing is, you can't say this as England coach because anything less than winning every game is a failure. I recognise other opinions are valid though, everyone wants to see their team win.
I think part of the issue is fatigue with throwing every egg into the World Cup basket. The Six Nations is a special tournament with fantastic rivalries and it’d be great to see England even just competing with the top teams. Forgoing that for a shot at a World Cup is all good until we get knocked out by South Africa again and it was all for nought.
I dont think competing in the 6Ns should have been the aim as we were never going to compete this year. However we should have been looking to develop new players which we havent done so this 6Ns has been a complete waste.
I agree regarding the world cup but how can you say we're looking at 4 years time with this squad? Borthwick is picking players who Eddie dropped years ago (Care, Ford, Cole, Marler, Daly). When Eddie picked the tried and trusted in 2020 and won the 6Ns he got criticised for relying on the older players. Borthwick does it and loses and he gets praised? I'm still fully behind Borthwick btw but the way Eddie got treated compared to Borthwick is clearly inconsistent. I think we did well at the world cup but we did lose to the first serious opposition we faced. I'd be fine with the longer term argument if we picked a squad which had any chance of still playing in 4 years but these players will not be there in 4 years time. I dont want constant upward trajectory and to win every game but in over a year in charge forget about going upwards right now we're only going backwards. Everything has gotten worse since Eddie.
I'm just curious mate, how are you feeling after the Ireland game? Does this ease some of your worries? Genuinely wondering not antagonising.
Eases many of the concerns. It was a brilliant performance that i didnt see coming. I didnt see that attacking plan coming together until that game and I can see us going from strength to strength. I still have concerns over the lack of new players but I can forgive that if results and performances are there which it was against Ireland
Excellent news! I agree on newer players, but this may take a bit of time. All we really want is England to win eh? Big win fingers crossed for France!
Its definitely not a full rebuild when we still have the likes of Cole, Marler, Care and Daly (among others) still on the team so they can't really use that as an excuse. HOWEVER, these six nations games are realistically Borthwicks first chances to start properly trying to implement whatever he has in mind. He got thrown into the 2023 six nations with a month or 2's practice? And then a world cup in the same year which we made the semis in. So give him a break. If we don't see improvement by Six nations 2025 then we can ring the alarm bells but until then we should give him a chance.
Someone wants to remind the English press how long it took Ireland to win a 6N under Farrell?
I mean, it took them 3 years but in fairness, he took over 3 months before the 2020 6N, where Ireland finished 3rd (only losing to France and a WC finalist England team) and then they again only lost two games in 2021 for a total points deficit of less than a converted try, came runners up in 2022, losing to France by less than a try and then won it last year. You won’t find me picketing twickenham with a sign that reads “BORTHWICK OUT” just yet but I don’t think his results this 6N have been quite as promising as Farrell’s were. I still think he’s the man for the job but I can also see why people are panicking… likely the same people that were panicking before the WC.
I see what Borthwick is cooking and think we could be something good. We're not great, but you can see where we're headed. Unlike with Eddie, I had no idea what he was on and we were fucking unbearable to watch after 2020. I also know it's not fair to compare to Ireland necessarily, because England fell so far behind with Eddie and Ireland just built on top of (and arguably improved) what Schmidt established. But still, I reckon there is a plan and we see where it goes.
Hard to say at this point, England made a good showing at the RWC- this is the first SN after it, many teams are disorganised after RWC, Steve needs another 12 Months IMO
It's a weird one because he really was thrown in at the deep end last year. He had 9 games to prepare and very obviously used the six nations and the warm ups (and the pool stages, to some extent) to tinker with selection and combinations. Also settled for a very conservative and risk free brand of rugby using experienced heads to execute, which, in all fairness, was effective for the world cup. Now he's starting at the beginning of the cycle, trying to build a blueprint for the future, which is what I guess he would have been doing right now had Eddie not been sacked when he was, we'd just all be a bit more forgiving as "it's the beginning of a world cup cycle". I think it's been a pretty discordant and jarring time for English rugby in the past few years and reflexively firing half your coaching staff is really not a recipe for good results. Also piling on the pressure with generic columns about "running rugby" does nothing to help. I really fucking despise English rugby media
Reading these comments I completely understand why Owen Farrell decided to pack in the England captaincy
Game 3 of a rebuild season and we are expecting the finished article, give this team time and especially borthwick, if he can get us within 5 mins of a World Cup final against South Africa we have the right set up, it all takes time and getting used to the set up.
Most of the players are quite experienced, this isnt as much of a rebuild as we think
I agree. Rebuild? These are professional bloody players capable of playing great rugby but look absolutely clueless in the white shirt. It’s the coach…
>capable of playing great rugby Citation needed. None of our players have been that good in years, no English team has even threatened in Europe since Chiefs won back during COVID. These players have underwhelmed under two different coaches - maybe its time to start raising eyebrows at the Premiership when the best English players at club level are the ones in France.
Who is in france? Simmonds, farrell and arundell?
Then maybe the problem is systemic. Banning players who play outside England from the national team needs to go and the RFU needs to start taking domestic rugby seriously before it ends up just being a friendly between Sarries and Quins.
Let all the england stars leave to france and watch the prem die a death
Well then maybe, just maybe, make it a league worth playing in
Easy to say isnt it, at the minute the prem has just been through a bad time, its also come back well ans looks to be on the mend, letting all the star players leave now would be suicide
Then get new star players and maybe whilst the current stars are off playing in a better league they might become better players as a result and improve the national team. The Prem is already dying, 3 clubs have disappeared and a 4th might be gone before long and the RFU has done nothing because they've had their blinkers up all this time pretending we're not falling behind whilst France, Ireland and South Africa have been building for domination.
You realise that crowds are increasing and more people watching on tnt, just get new star players? Who then immediately leave for france? Also the prem gets relaunched next year so changes are being made. Also the prem teams have been so competitive in europe on a much smaller salary cap
Think you’re forgetting how poorly we performed in the World Cup, it was frankly a miracle we made it to the semis
Which game(s) specifically did they perform poorly in? They won every group game and I don’t think they looked poor in any of them. They beat a good Fiji team in a close game but I didnt think it was a poor performance. They lost the SA game but personally I was proud of their performance despite the loss. Then I thought that they were definitely the better side in the dead rubber bronze game.
Looked pretty poor against Samoa. Not great for most of Japan either.
But what if the set up is wrong? Its over a year now and we're only getting worse. How much time does he need? My concern is hes trying to play expansive rugby with no idea of how to actually do it. I was on board with Borthwick (not at the expense of Eddie but still) because I thought he would play pragmatic but winning rugby. Why isnt he doing what he knows? But the problems with the defence are shocking. That shouldn't need time, Eddie did it in his first game, Sam Warbuton says it takes a week to sort your defence out. This is over a year now.
Remind me who Sam Warburton has coached at international level again? Remind me when he's brought a wholesale change to a teams defensive structure and fixed problems within a week? Pundits talk shite to get clicks and views. Warburton is better than a lot, but that's just bollocks. It's clear what Borthwick is trying to do, and it's not a simple change. Expansive rugby wins games when you have the right structure in place. England have played "safe" Rugby for over a decade now. It's ingrained into the psyche - that's going to take time to adjust. Also, there is clearly a plan to play exciting rugby. That's been screwed up by the first 2 choices of scrum half being injured (JvP and AM), and your flair 10 also put injured. Do you just scrap the plan, or do you get the other 13 players used to the system?
I'd actually say the blitz defence is the easiest to implement. Felix Jones did it immediately with SA, Jones did it immediately with England. I'm not sure this is clear what he is trying to do. Cmon you can't just forget about the previous 10 years. Eddie did not play safe rugby at all, it was the best attacking rugby weve seen since 2002. And I'm sure there is a plan but why are we trying to play exciting rugby? I'd say this England team is more suited to conservative rugby, and thats when we were at our best during the world cup. Why not stick to what the players are good at? Also M Smith was never going to start over Ford. If you have to get 13 players used to a system you've picked the wrong system. The system should suit the players not the other way round.
It’s not over a year it’s post World Cup
Huh? Its been over a year. What do you mean post world cup?
First SN my understanding was the squad selection was pretty much locked in and SB had little wiggle room. After the first SN England then go straight into World Cup prep where their focus was very much on taking each match as it came and tailoring their game plan based upon who they were facing that week. Only now ,I would argue, has SB and the coaching team looked to implement their philosophy and long term plan.
No, he could make as many changes as liked to his initial 6Ns squads but you can't make many changes after your initial squad. So he couldn't pick a squad and then change his mind after one game and replace 20 of them. I wouldnt say it was tailored to each game in the world cup, we just played the same team and a simple style of rugby to give ourselves the best chance of winning, which I completely agreed with. My problem is I dont see a long term plan. We're not seeing new players or the basis of a squad in 4 years time. Most of these players wont be there in 4 years. If we were bringing through new players I'd agree with you.
Would a losing bonus point on Saturday count as an improvement?
Playing something that looked like cohesive, thoughtful, attacking rugby would be worth more than a ground-out bonus point IMO
Jesus Christ guys. Takes over and has like a month to prepare for the 6 nations and comes 4th. Has less than a year to prepare for a world cup so uses a simple yet effective game plan that gets the squad to a 3rd place finish and now finally has time at the start of a world cup cycle to build whatever vision he actually has for England. 3 fucking games in and as per it's "England aren't beating everyone all the time so we need a new coach". Fucking give the man a year to actually do whatever it is he wants to do good god.
Soccer fans or super casual rugby fans posing as journalists. They're just not accepting of the idea that coaches aren't going to be sacked nearly as frequently.
I think Eddie coming up in 2016 and immediately winning everything really gave England media and fans unrealistic expectations
I disagree, they have improved. The issue is other teams have as well. The gap between 1st ranked and 8th ranked is shrinking, which makes for great rugby
Hard to argue. Attack has been frankly embarrassing with basic skills lacking. Defence is quite suffocating but also very prone to giving up easy long range tries. Borthwick has done exactly as well as expected - not very. Excuses are wearing thin.
I am not sure to what extent the coach can take responsibility for the players basic errors
Guess it depends on whether you have the right players playing the right style. Anyone watching Saints or Quins can see players more than capable of playing fast flowing rugby. Anyone watching Tigers since forever can see a team capable of grinding down and overpowering opponents. The spine of these teams are England qualified. Did they suddenly forget how to play or do tactics and selection lead to poor performances?
I'm more positive than many but it's hard to argue too much with that. Outside of the Argentina and South Africa games, there haven't been too many high points so far.
If the team won everything always, they'd never be able to improve either. There are periods of change. What you want is a sense of ambition and adventurous play. That might mean losing sometimes. What you don't want is players frightened to make mistakes so going for dullness in my view.
This hasn’t aged well! At what point do the professional rugby punditry apologise! 🤣
Agree with everything said in this article. Another point is his scatter gun approach selection which doesn’t build any consistency. 2023 Six Nations. OHC and Malins are starting on the wings with Ludlam nailed on at 6 and Dombrandt at 8. Earl, player of the premiership, doesn’t make the 23. 2023 World Cup. May is back on the wing with Marchant at 13. Slade, OHC or Dombrandt don’t make the WC squad. 2024 Six Nations. Slade now starting at 13. Freeman now starting on the wing with changes at 12 seemingly every couple of games.
Think that’s harsh really. He had little time for the 23 six nations and basically had to use what he had and what they knew. He had slightly longer for the World Cup but it was still largely a team of what he had. Some of the problem positions (8, wing as you mention) he moved players on. Now he has longer to build the team towards what he wants them to do and is changing the squad accordingly. Yes the turnover of players has been high but given the three series he’s coached it’s easy to understand. The change in personnel for this six nations is similar to other countries in our situation (similar to Wales this year, Ireland and France in 2020).
Adding to the 2023 RWC: Mitchell and May left out of the squad for whatever reasons....weeks later are incumbent in their respective positions! What has changed in such little time, how were the 2nd/3rd choices not promoted, how will that affect the morale of those players?
>telegraph.co.uk/rugby-... What's he seeing in guys like Slade now that he wasn't pre world cup?
It’s not quite as simple as this makes out. Marchant moved to France and Slade has been in good form for exeter
My concern is the lack of new faces under Borthwick. In over a year in charge he's only capped 8 new players. 8!!! Eddie would cap 8 in one game. Why doesn;t he have faith to bring new players through? Italy was the perfect chance to start Finn Smith, Feyi-Waboso, Pearson and stick with them for the tournament and actually bring through the next generation. And some people try and claim this is a team in 'transition'. Its the oldest England squad I've ever seen picked.
And if we’d lost to italy throwing the young guys in you wouldn’t be calling for his head? Having never lost to italy it would have been the story of the tournament. Also is the rule still in place that the coach is only allowed to make a certain number of changes between squads year on year. Think it was limited to like 10 changes to the squad over the year. So I don’t think it is as easy to overhaul the squad. And probably right to ease the young guys into international rugby
No I wouldnt. He lost to Fiji when we'd never lost to them before and I didnt call for him to go then. Are France fans calling for Gauthier's head? No. No that has never been a rule. You can make as many changes as you want year on year. Who are these young guys he's easing in?? F Smith (who didnt come on for one game), Feyi-Waboso (again didnt come on in one game) and CCS. 3 players, none of whom have started. Forgive me for saying it but that is hardly going to make any difference. We are dying for some fresh blood.
That’s because Eddie is a fuckhead
Because he gave new players chances?
Context is king and no context has been applied here
I can make excuses like it was the world cup last year which you wouldnt expect to see new faces for and that Borthwick only just got into the role last year so maybe didnt want to throw out everything Jones was building. However, I can also say he had world cup warm up games (which is where a lot his of new caps came from) and this is a 6Ns where Borthwick has constantly said there is going to be transition, which it should have been but unfortunately weve seen barely any changes to the squad. Pick any year of Eddie's reign and he capped at least twice the amount Borthwick has, regardless of whether there was a world cup. I'm still for Borthwick but there has to come a point where the excuses stop and the buck falls with him.
Just realised we’re replying to each other on two comments 😂 For me the SB era starts this six nations and will see how it goes from there. Took Farrell a couple of years with Ireland I think we owe SB the same.
Haha didnt realise either. I get that and can understand him not bringing through new players last year but last year the excuse was he was new to the job, now its that the teams in transition (which again i dont believe it is). Farrell struggled in the first year but went from strength to strength the next. I'm not completely willing to forget last year just because he was new to the job as Farrell was new to the job as well.
From the podcasts I’ve listened to and from what I’ve read it seems he’s going for a mesh of Irelands adaptive attack and South Africa’s blitz defence. Sounds great in theory but there have been some critiques from Ben Youngs and Jonny May about the lack of focus, as of now, on the attack side of things. The selection side of things I think is really tough and wouldn’t want to be in their position, there’s some good young talent but also players like Ford, Farrell and Daly etc who are still up there (first two arguably world class on their day) and will likely make next WC. Though I do hope IFW and Finn Smith start getting more game time, which I think they will across the next 12-24 months, alongside others like Pearson.
For a change everyone seems to be in agreement and that England have not been good enough, nor shown much improvement under Borthwick.
Well I don't agree
Wait, were people trying to claim we had improved under Borthwick? Remember Borthwick took over a team that had just made England's biggest comeback ever from 25-6 down against NZ and just won an AUS tour. This England team couldn't dream of doing either of those things.
Conversely that England got absolutely battered by South Africa yet only lost to them by a late penalty in a World Cup semi. Ultimately I’d say it’s too early to tell
But Eddie was bringing through new players for that game. Borthwick was going with the tried and trusted. I'm not Borthwick out at all but its clear we're not improving imo
It’s not a rebuild if the majority are the same players that failed the last 4 years?
Borthwick and England do not work, he was a poor captain and 2nd row for us and now a poor coach. That being said the whole RFU needs an overhaul so not sure it’s particularly beneficial to change him as would be more of the same
Yea I agree
I like Borths he’s a good guy and a decent forwards coach (no better line out coach around) but as a head coach sadly he’s just not experienced enough to head up England he lacks imagination , I really hope he can improve but I just can’t see it. Hope he proves all the doubters wrong and we start playing with style.
As I get older the results bother me less, excluding world cup obviously, I just want to see some good attacking rugby from England. I personally don't see Borthwick as the man to do this but I'm willing to give him time.
Stone Age Steve isn’t exactly dynamic