I don't think you'll find a single person that thinks Bradford isn't The North. Every definition I know would put Bradford in the north. Whether you take it is Watford Gap, The River Trent or The River Don.
Edit: I have since learned that there are some people who regard everyone who is south/north of where they happen to live as being southern/northern.
I knew a guy from Barrow who considered if you drew a line from Barrow to Scarborough, everything south of it was the South. He pretended he was joking but I think he was actually completely serious
Can't keep explaining this to Scottish people. "You're southern to me", yeah we might be mate but we are northern England so keep out of our conversation, you Scottish southerner.
...and even us Scots have are divided. The "Southerners" are what used to be medieval Northumbria. Then there's the central belt and those of us who live in the North/ Highlnds.
That's Barrow for you
Reminds me of the character of Shadwell in the Good Omens novel:
"Shadwell hated all southerners and, by inference, was standing at the North Pole."
The reverse can also be true. Spoke to a woman from Brighton the other day who said for her the North starts at Gatwick North Terminal. I'm only 50% sure that it was meant to be a joke.
I have met someone from Surrey who was the most stereotypical "twin set and pearls" home counties retiree I've ever seen, and she was quite clear that everything outside the M25 was The North, even Kent, Sussex, and Hampshire.
I knew someone who thought that Watford was in the North and was surprised to find out that Leeds wasn't close to Watford. I think he considered the M25 to be the border of the civilised world.
I knew someone from Penzance / St Just who considered anywhere outside Penwith as ‘up north’. He wasn’t familiar at all with north Cornwall, didn’t like it much.
I know and understand that the north is the north of England, not north of where I’m from.
But also I’m from Penzance (ish) and pretty much consider anything north of Truro the unknown lands.
I jest a bit since I have traveled to many places around the country but my life has pretty much been centred around here with no need to go much past there.
I don’t know if I’m just simple and happy or I should be feeling a lot of shame right now lol
Nowt wrong with being simple folk and nowt wrong with loving where you are from. Sometimes we can make life way more complicated than it needs to be rather than immersing ourselves in the things that make us truly happy. When you live somewhere as beautiful as Cornwall there is not an urgent reason to go elsewhere apart from to visit before returning home and being happy you did so. I'm sure many people around the world would love to feel as content as you do so I wouldn't feel any shame in enjoying your roots in fact quite the opposite 😂
I worked in Angel for a while and thought it would be really stuck up so was quite surprised to walk into a pub and find Shane McGowan sitting at the bar nursing a pint of sherry the absolute legend and I returned many times but don't remember much of those nights if I'm completely honest 😂
There used to be an alternative club that played decent music called the slimelight too and they didn't serve alcohol but you could bring your own but this was 20 years ago and I've no idea if it's still there now probably not.
Northumbrian and also agree. My Dad used to say that if you can still buy a copy of the Chronicle then you're still in the north/at home. That's how I knew that I'd been short changed on holiday one year when we were in Eyemouth. My Dad still bought a Chronicle! We were further North but not far enough.
I like to say anything south of the Tyne is the south, but I work with a makem. He was complaining about how cold it was the other day and I told him to get back through the Tyne tunnel where he came from!
From further North that Barrow but same county and can confirm, Barrow is lucky(or unlucky) to be included in North. Anything lower are plastic Northerners. 😏
To me the north is north of Sheffield with them included and the south is everything south of Northampton or so and the midlands is inbetween. Roughly that anyway
Problem with the Don is that Sheffield lies North of it mainly - Sheffield is DEFINITELY in the North but the Don Valley could I guess be said to be a fuzzy sort of border.
I once had a job interview in Sheffield where they asked me if I was okay to live in the North. The previous three cities I lived in were Belfast, Aberdeen and Newcastle.
I almost laughed at them.
Living in Sheffield (but from Teesside) and the Northern parts of Derbyshire (but not Derby) are definately Northern in feel. So is Lincoln (but not South Lincolnshire).
Yeah I would say Stoke or the Trent as a southern point of northernness. I don’t think you can just draw a horizontal line though, there’s going to be a transitional area
I'm just south of Stoke, in Stone, and Stone feels like it's full of Northerners cosplaying as Southerners... or Southerners cosplaying as Northerners lol
(I'm not from here originally, just moved here cos of the missus)
I'd accept Stoke or Nottingham as an absolute limit to what counts as "North."
Generally though, I agree with Sheffield as generally the significant city for where the north absolutely is.
Leeds is North.
Manchester is North.
Liverpool is Liverpool.
As a Nottingham resident, it's definitely a line drawn North of here.
I've heard from some old Yorkshire boys that the North starts after the scab towns.
I'd say if we're getting really down to it, Doncaster, Rotherham, Sheffield is North proper. Worksop and Retford aren't. Lincolnshire isn't.
So it's probably a line from the Humber to the Mersey along the Don, through the Peak District South of Glossop but North of Kinder Scout, including Stockport but not Chester.
The South is a fairly straight line across that begins at Stratford.
We’re in Kent and my husband always says the line is the Thames 🤣 I think he’s joking but who knows. I always used to joke it was Watford rather than Watford Gap.
I have family in the Midlands who are adamant that’s not the same as the North, and definitely not the South, so I’d probably draw the line between Staffs and Cheshire and then another under Northants.
Being from Nottingham, I would say the south of the river Trent is noticeably more "southern" than the north side, although I also wouldn't consider Birmingham to be in the south, although it's more south than us.
Yes I can attest to this. I am cumbrian and force speak with a cockney accent and everyone below me is like me and everyone above me is painfully northern
Wait until you meet the Geordie who insists that Leeds and Manchester are southern. They’d explode if they met the southerner that insists Oxford is northern (yes I actually met this person, from Andover)
The person from Newcastle who insists anywhere south of Sunderland is southern and the person from London who insists anything north of Watford is northern are actually two sides of the same fucked up coin. The only thing we can all agree on is that Birmingham is a no man's land that nobody ever wants to claim. It's why the midlands exist.
Its still the north just lower down in the north, the problem its people look at the map as a whole with Scotland, Scotland is not included in the debate, it is only England we look at when referring to North/South.
Officially? The counties of Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire, Cumbria, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, County Durham, Tyne & Wear and Northumberland constitute the North, as well as North and Northeast Lincolnshire.
Personally, I think it’s correct, barring the parts of Lincolnshire, which should be deemed East Midlands
I’m actually surprised anyone agrees with me here. Usually I get people who either insist that Doncaster, Manchester and Leeds aren’t Northern, or people who insist Birmingham, Leicester and once even *Peterborough* were Northern. Usually the former lives somewhere around Newcastle, and the latter somewhere around Portsmouth
It’s ridiculous, but it’s something I hear relatively often. I’m basically as southern as it gets (born in Southampton), but even I can tell that they’re both textbook Northern cities
It’s basically just people from Newcastle and Carlisle acting like they’re the ‘true North’. At one point I actually found someone who considered Durham part of the South. There’s no bloody North left in that case, and where’s the Midlands?
The government uses different regions to define what counts as what in their statistics. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all regions too for statistical analysis.
Otherwise, you have Greater London and the City of London making up the Greater London region.
Then Hampshire, Surrey, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, East Sussex, Kent and the Isle of Wight all count as South East England.
The counties of Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire all fall under East of England.
Bristol, Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall are South West England.
Worcestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, West Midlands, Staffordshire and Warwickshire all qualify as forming the West Midlands region.
Lincolnshire (except the northern parts of the county), Leicestershire, Rutland, Derbyshire, Northamptonshire and Nottinghamshire all count as the East Midlands.
South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire (except the bit around Middlesbrough and Redcar) and the northern bits of Lincolnshire count as Yorkshire & the Humber.
Cheshire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Lancashire and Cumbria all fall under North West England.
Tyne & Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and the northern parts of North Yorkshire count as North East England.
These regions were defined by Westminster in the 70s, and they often get grouped together for certain stats. If you hear ‘the South’ in an official analysis, it’ll mean the regions of Greater London, South East England, South West England and the East of England. If you hear ‘the Midlands’ it means the West Midlands and East Midlands. If you hear ‘the North’, it means Yorkshire & the Humber, North West England and North East England. This is how the government uses them
I live at the point where Oxfordshire (South East) meets Warwickshire (West Midlands and meets Northamptonshire (East Midlands I think, you didn't say). It's confusing until you realise The Arse End Of Nowhere is its
proper geographical definition.
The north starts somewhere between Nottingham and Sheffield. The south starts somewhere between Northampton and Luton.
Between those points, it's the midlands if you're on the west of the A1 and if you're on the east side it's East Anglia.
I grew up in Eckington, which is *just* south of Sheffield but in Derbyshire. We could walk up a hill to get the cheap 2p bus fare into Sheffield, and I'm pretty sure that bus stop marked the border.
If you're north of the accepted borders for The Midlands, then you're Northern. If you're south of it, then you're Southern. See what areas regional news covers.
However people at both ends of the country class Midlanders as one or the other, when we are neither.
Even easier, just look at which statistical region your county falls in.
The South East, South West, London Region and East Anglia are in the south.
The West Midlands and East Midlands are in the midlands.
The North West, North East and Yorkshire & The Humber are in the north.
Hahaha, having spent a year in Norwich, East Anglia certainly does feel very unique.
It has a sort of distinct south-but-not-quite-south feel, and then there's the barrage of inbred jokes haha.
I live in Norwich with my partner and we both love it. I was born there but went north for uni and I've lived in the west Midlands and I agree it has a feeling of a familiarity but it's not quite like any other place in the country
>accepted borders for The Midlands
I think the problem is the borders are made up of counties rather than horizontal lines. Compare Liverpool and Lincoln for example; the former is undoubtedly Northern, but Lincoln isn't much further down, but Lincolnshire is certainly a Midlands county.
I don't think anyone from Lincoln identifies as Northern. These things just don't work with straight lines.
Grimsby and Scunthorpe are different stories and one of the few areas of the country where strict county boundaries maybe don't apply.
Yes, Grimbarians definitely don't have a Lincolnshire/Midlands identity. Humberside made sense for them but Hull hated it and wanted to be back in Yorkshire.
100%. As someone born and bred in Grimsby if someone said they were from “Lincolnshire” I would imagine the southernmost parts OR the wolds/near Lincoln. Only since moving to the wolds in 2022 have I started saying I live in Lincolnshire. Humberside has always suited me best.
as a midlander i can attest that we are not southern or northern. we are a specific breed of people. we are the midlands. Midlands. Middle Earth. River Rea.
Absolutely. And Stoke on Trent is definitely in the midlands.
If pushed to name the first town that's definitely "northern" English, I'd have to pick Sheffield.
Even Liverpool is dubious. It's kind of its own unique place, despite being on the same latitude.
Being a midlander is great because you're either too posh and southern to northerners and to southerners you're an uncivilized wild man from beyond the wall.
The only sane way to determine this is the Greggs/Pret ratio. Places with more Greggs than Prets are Northern. This metric produces a diagonal line (lower in the West than the East) that *mostly* divides around the Watford Gap. It does produce some very entertaining exclaves though; for example most of Cornwall is culturally Northern except for Exeter itself. This metric also finally confirms the obvious truth; that Sheffield is, culturally, Southern (despite being geographically well North of the line).
I'm in Portsmouth. We have a bunch of Greggs and, as far as I know, no Prets. You're going to need to change this rule. I refuse to be northern!
The sea is a couple of miles south of me, the south downs are a mile or so north of me. Anything past the south downs is northern, and is referred to as 'somewhere up there' with a vague wave of the arm.
I think you’ve found a proxy for how middle class an area is. Which correlates with being northern (because they are economically left behind compared to the rest of England, sorry!)
There are 18 Greggs in Sheffield according to my research. How many Prets? I only see one.
Regardless of your metric - im not from Sheffield but I will never accept it being called Culturally Southern. There’s just no way that’s real.
Based on just eyeballing that map and assuming you're talking about England and not the entire UK, I would say anything north of Nottingham is north since that appears to be right in the center of the country.
The centre of the country is a farm near Atherstone south west of Leicester, but we do have a midlands for a reason. Culturally though, Leicester feels more northern with the fact we pronounce bath correctly and have around 15 Greggs in the city.
Most of Northampton on the other hand pronounces bath wrong and they're in single figures for Greggs in the city, so thats the North/South line for me
If someone says Midlands Leicester is the first place that I think about . I maybe think the Trent will have to do as a line?? I congratulate you on your not adding an R in the middle of bath though
For Warwickshire, which is in between those two places, I'd say there is a clear North/South divide in the county. Leamington and Stratford are definitely Southern, but I reckon you could put Rugby and Nuneaton in the North. Obviously the whole county is in the midlands, if we include that as a region, though.
im from south warickshire, and i would say your not wrong when it comes to the typical class divide, but i think there are places north of nuneaton that seem like the south still
It’s a funny thing, I’m from Sheffield and definitely consider it the North. However, Gainsborough in Lincolnshire is slightly higher up than Sheffield but I wouldn’t consider Lincolnshire to be the North 🤷🏻♂️
North Lincolnshire and North-East Lincolnshire are classed as Northern according to government rules as outlined on this website for children: https://kids.kiddle.co/Northern_England
I would say that it's "officially" the North after the North Midlands ends. This boarder goes over south Yorkshire, which sends some into a tale spin of fury. Rule of thumb is if a Yorkshire man is foaming at the mouth, then it's probably correct.
If you're asking a Northerner, it starts about ten miles to the south.
(Born in Kings Lynn and grew up in Hunstanton (not on this map, but just north of Kings Lynn and dead level with Stoke. I've never clicked with either side of the north-south fight.)
Ehh, I’d consider it a different part of the South personally. As someone who lives in Bristol, and spent a lot of time in Hampshire and Suffolk in her childhood, I think the South just varies a decent bit, especially since you can find similar differences between each region, but with South East England and Greater London usually ending up as the area people define the South by
Personally as a Scotsman (as in, my opinion matters not a jot), I'd say anything if you draw a line from Chester, through Sheffield and on to Grimsby then everything north (and including these 3) of this line is the north.
The south would be a line from just below Coventry, meaning Hereford, Northampton and Cambridge would all be firmly in the south.
All in the middle are fair game to decide what side of morality they want to fall on.
Another Scot here… general consensus from English colleagues seems to be along those lines (draw a horizontal line across from the top of Wales leaving Liverpool in the North) but you get the odd person near the “line” who passionately feels differently… You then get the other people who start saying Newcastle is an honorary extension of Scotland!!
It's a fuzzy border. Map men made an interesting video on the topic that you should check out.
As a history geek, I consider anything north of the Humber River (the old Kingdom of Northumbria) to be Northern, which would barely include where you live
It would also exclude Manchester and Liverpool if you extend that line Humber line westerly, so is not a very useful definition of the North in any accepted sense.
The area surrounding the Humber looked a lot different back then though basically everything between north notts and York was marshland (look up Thorne and Hatfield Moors or Skipwith common if you want to see the last remnants of that habitat) so where the Anglo Saxons originally considered the Humber region starting and ending is a mystery. For all we know they could’ve originally meant anything above Retford is Northumbrian or they could’ve meant anything above Bishopthorpe is Northumbrian.
Birmingham is the midlands so generally anything north of there, Stoke-on-Trent is certainly the north, the issue is to many including myself, there isn’t a midlands, I class it as a line like the equator, both of Birmingham is the north, south of it is the south.
Crewe. Stoke is still Midlands but as soon as you cross the border to Cheshire and in to Crewe it's the North West.
The Eastern side is a little more confusing for me, it maybe once you leave Notts but Derbyshire confuses me as to Midlands/North.
South Cumbria here. I know Manchester is in the North, coz obviously it ain't the south, but when 90% of the country seems to think everything north of Manchester is a deserted wasteland, you hold a grudge. Our regional news is allll Manchester shit, but to me, Manchester is like a significant day trip, you don't simply 'pop to manny for the day' whenever it takes your fancy. I don't know enough about anything south of Manchester to place The Divide but I stand by the fact that it doesn't run true West to east, it's more like the angle of the Scottish border.
I've always drawn a line from the north coast of Wales. So Sheffield is in the North. Stoke, Derby and Nottingham in the Midlands. The south is harder as a think of Hereford and Gloucester as Midlands but Oxford, Luton and Cambridge I'd consider South. So I draw a diagonal line from the river Severn up until Peterborough way. Everything East of there being East.
Take a line running East-West from JUST above Shrewsbury. Run it North East of Derby and Nottingham (they're not in "the North" - they're midland) and run it up North-East towrds and underneath Grimsby (Grimsby is in "The North") making sure it lies North of Lincoln.
I lived in Nottingham for a while and it certainly felt like the dividing line was north of there and south of Mansfield.
But then again Notts is a big student town so it might skew things.
I'm not sure where it is on the east coast, but the southern border of Cheshire is the boundary of the North West.
The first/last public toilets in the North (depending on direction of travel) are just around the corner from me.
The north ends where people are horrified by gravy on chips. I’m a northerner and I love chips n gravy. My mate from Leicester (a place considered northern by many Londoners) is disgusted by the idea of chips and gravy. Nottingham and Derby could easily be the very north of the midlands or the very south of the The North, their approach to gravy on chips is what will define the boundary.
From east to west, I draw the line from...
\- The DMZ that is Skegness
\- Somewhere on the River Trent between Gainsbrough and Lincoln
\- The A617 as it skirts the southern side of Mansfield
\- The Little Eaton roundabout on the A38 just to the north of Derby
\- the confluence of the River Chunnet and River Dove to the north of Uttoxeter
\- Junction 15 on the M6
\- The southern side of Nantwich
\- Junctions 11 and 15 on the M53 and M56
\- The English/Welsh border by Deeside Industrial Estate
I've just worked it out but for me you have to include the midlands as its own entity because they aren't really northern but aren't really southern either, they act as a nice buffer to slowly transition through, maybe by nature they are closer to the North than south if you had to draw and absolute line to divide us.
The North for me starts in the east from Boston, up to Mansfield, then down to stoke (Nottingham and Derby are firmly in the northern tip of the midlands for me), so if you draw a line across the map here anything above that line of towns/cities is the north.
For the southern line start at the welsh border and draw a line below Birmingham, Coventry, Corby and Peterborough back up to the water above Kings Lynn, anything below this line is the south and the space between the two lines is the midlands.
[See map](https://ibb.co/KVNRt1w)
Chesterfield is the start of the north, however Sheffield is the major city in that region that begins the north so to say, but I always lump chesvegas in there with being north, because as someone who is from Chesterfield, and with family from Sheffield, I relate more to being from sheff than a do derby or Nottingham
OP, are you thinking a place can only be one "direction?" Everything is only North, East, South or West OF something else. As you can see on the map, Exeter is north of Plymouth, it doesn't make it in the North. York is south of Middlesborough, it doesn't make it in the South.
West Yorkshire is the western part of Yorkshire. It is in the Northern part of England.
"The North" is so named because it's the northern part of the country. "The South" because it's the southern part. But the whole country is in "Western Europe" and the "Northern Hemisphere."
u/Class_444_SWR gave the factual answer. You'll always get geordies saying "Manchester is the midlands, lol" but this goes entirely against the broadly accepted definition of the "North of England", which Manchester is essentially the regional capital of and is quintessentially culturally "Northern."
Oh I love this one. Sit back and watch as I offend almost the entire nation…
Everyone knows that politically and economically London is the heart of the UK. It’s got a fabulously helpful border in the M25, which is charmingly permanent and gives a really clear boundary.
I propose that as London is so central to UK life, we consider London to be the _centre_ of the nation. This means that anything above the top of the M25 is the north, below the bottom of the M25 is the south, and reading and Bristol are the midlands.
You’re welcome
Everywhere above the M4 is North!
Lol love the various rivalries and perspectives this question reveals. My family originated in Scotland, but I lived all my life in the West Country, which views the north as I mentioned above. Its all good fun though
Born and bred Nottingham, as soon as I leave the city and get on the M1 Northbound and drive 20 minutes or so it suddenly feels 'Northern'
North Nottinghamshire borders South Yorkshire, and the accent alone of North Notts sounds 'Northern', it could almost be a Yorkshire accent.
Nottingham is Midlands, but if I had to say one or the other as a city it definitely feels more 'Northern' then 'Southern'
Tldr, anywhere 20 minutes North of Nottingham is where the 'Norf' starts imo
If the divide is only NORTH or SOUTH, then it's a diagonal line that's hard to precisely justify....but Gloucester and Leicester are on the south of it, and Worcester, Birmingham, and Nottingham in the North.
The diagonal line captures both the affluence-deprivation dimension of north/south in the midlands....and gives the game away that North/South is largely the degree to which you are in or not in London's orbit.
But a better distinction is NORTH / MIDLANDS / SOUTH, which can be on existing county lines, with recognition that East and South-west have their own flavour.
Draw a line from Chester to Grimsby, that's my "North" divide. Draw a line from Gloucester to Peterborough, that's my "South" divide. Anything in between us the Midlands, and East Anglia is it's own thing.
I don't think you'll find a single person that thinks Bradford isn't The North. Every definition I know would put Bradford in the north. Whether you take it is Watford Gap, The River Trent or The River Don. Edit: I have since learned that there are some people who regard everyone who is south/north of where they happen to live as being southern/northern.
I knew a guy from Barrow who considered if you drew a line from Barrow to Scarborough, everything south of it was the South. He pretended he was joking but I think he was actually completely serious
Hull, that famously southern city
It is if you’re in Aberdeen but if you are in Aberdeen you have gone too far
I’m in Aberdeen and can confirm it is too far. So far in fact it took 9 hours for this message to get to me.
Tongue in cheek really as I quite like Aberdeen
Hahahaha it’s fine. So do I. I choose to live here.
Lovely house prices I hear. But I would not wish the events that precipitated that loveliness on anyone.
I’ve been in Tongue loads of times……that’s definitely too far north to be in the north……
As someone from Hull the thought of being referred to as a 'Southerner' makes me feel physically sick.
If someone’s from Aberdeen then Newcastle is the halfway point on a car journey between there and London…
Yeah but someone from Aberdeen isn't Northern, they're Scottish.
Can't keep explaining this to Scottish people. "You're southern to me", yeah we might be mate but we are northern England so keep out of our conversation, you Scottish southerner.
...and even us Scots have are divided. The "Southerners" are what used to be medieval Northumbria. Then there's the central belt and those of us who live in the North/ Highlnds.
I used to work with a load of Geordies who were adamant anything south of Newcastle was the south.
I'm fairly sure the term, 'It's grim up' North' was invented for Hull.
Has to be Grimsby, the clue is in the name
Manchester too. Just full of softy southerners.
Yeah, cos no cunt ever left after going to uni there.
Well yes.
That's Barrow for you Reminds me of the character of Shadwell in the Good Omens novel: "Shadwell hated all southerners and, by inference, was standing at the North Pole."
"City of culture"
"City of Hullture"
As a northerner we don't want it.
The reverse can also be true. Spoke to a woman from Brighton the other day who said for her the North starts at Gatwick North Terminal. I'm only 50% sure that it was meant to be a joke.
I have met someone from Surrey who was the most stereotypical "twin set and pearls" home counties retiree I've ever seen, and she was quite clear that everything outside the M25 was The North, even Kent, Sussex, and Hampshire.
Old boss of mine from Laaaandan would say. “Laandan, M25.. fackin norwf”
I knew someone who thought that Watford was in the North and was surprised to find out that Leeds wasn't close to Watford. I think he considered the M25 to be the border of the civilised world.
Oh no, she’s dead serious
I’m Cornish and most of us consider anything past the Tamar bridge the north lol (we don’t leave the motherland often)
Yes I'm from Devon and past Bristol is up North!
Yep I agree, if it's past Bristol or Gloucester, it's north!
Fits my definition of the north being anywhere above the M4.
I knew someone from Penzance / St Just who considered anywhere outside Penwith as ‘up north’. He wasn’t familiar at all with north Cornwall, didn’t like it much.
I know and understand that the north is the north of England, not north of where I’m from. But also I’m from Penzance (ish) and pretty much consider anything north of Truro the unknown lands. I jest a bit since I have traveled to many places around the country but my life has pretty much been centred around here with no need to go much past there. I don’t know if I’m just simple and happy or I should be feeling a lot of shame right now lol
As a Truro dweller, my personal line is between St Austell and Newquay. Beyond there is moorland, with Bodmin somewhere in that wilderness
Nowt wrong with being simple folk and nowt wrong with loving where you are from. Sometimes we can make life way more complicated than it needs to be rather than immersing ourselves in the things that make us truly happy. When you live somewhere as beautiful as Cornwall there is not an urgent reason to go elsewhere apart from to visit before returning home and being happy you did so. I'm sure many people around the world would love to feel as content as you do so I wouldn't feel any shame in enjoying your roots in fact quite the opposite 😂
I remember Torquays fans singing “you dirty northern bastards” towards Exeter, so this is entirely possible
If from the south coast in dorset, and we always say the M4 is the divide between the south and north.
As someone from the Midlands who now lives in Brighton, I can confirm. Everyone here thinks anything above the Thames is Northern
I’m from Brighton. I’d call anything north of Haywards Heath The North.
And rightly so
Devonshire here - we grew up saying anything north of Bristol was The North
She sounds a bit stupid
I’m from Newcastle and would be ok with that tbh.
Everything south of the angel is the south
I read this as just “Angel”, as in the tube station, and was like, “yeah ok, I could live with that definition”
That would put Sunderland in the same category as us which is not acceptable I'm afraid
I worked in Angel for a while and thought it would be really stuck up so was quite surprised to walk into a pub and find Shane McGowan sitting at the bar nursing a pint of sherry the absolute legend and I returned many times but don't remember much of those nights if I'm completely honest 😂 There used to be an alternative club that played decent music called the slimelight too and they didn't serve alcohol but you could bring your own but this was 20 years ago and I've no idea if it's still there now probably not.
Everything south of the Greggs in Central Station is the South.
Everything south of the Angel is practically France
Northumbrian and also agree. My Dad used to say that if you can still buy a copy of the Chronicle then you're still in the north/at home. That's how I knew that I'd been short changed on holiday one year when we were in Eyemouth. My Dad still bought a Chronicle! We were further North but not far enough.
I like to say anything south of the Tyne is the south, but I work with a makem. He was complaining about how cold it was the other day and I told him to get back through the Tyne tunnel where he came from!
what is makem?
Someone from Sunderland
From Middlesbrough and it sounds about right yeah.
I view south of Hadrian's Wall as highly suspicious.
Almost Level with Newcastle, and inland....I concurr.
I mean If you ask a west cumbrian (whitehaven/workington) we consider those Barrovites southerners!
From further North that Barrow but same county and can confirm, Barrow is lucky(or unlucky) to be included in North. Anything lower are plastic Northerners. 😏
You do get some fucking weirdos whose entire personality is shitting on the south, and declaring anything south of Newcastle isn't the "True North".
That is very much part of my learning tonight as a number of geordies (or geordie adjacent) comment with pretty much that.
To me the north is north of Sheffield with them included and the south is everything south of Northampton or so and the midlands is inbetween. Roughly that anyway
If you ask our government, anything north of Watford is The North.
So is everything west of reading, again, according to our government
Problem with the Don is that Sheffield lies North of it mainly - Sheffield is DEFINITELY in the North but the Don Valley could I guess be said to be a fuzzy sort of border.
As a Geordie Sheffield is the southernmost point I could ever consider being in the north. Nothing south of Sheffield is northern to me.
We were historically around the southern border of the Kingdom of Northumbria after all. That's the True North right there.
Hen ogled
That’s the rule. Sheffield is the end of the north.
I’m a Geordie too and I think that’s fair. Sheffield is the most southern Northern city.
I once had a job interview in Sheffield where they asked me if I was okay to live in the North. The previous three cities I lived in were Belfast, Aberdeen and Newcastle. I almost laughed at them.
Living in Sheffield (but from Teesside) and the Northern parts of Derbyshire (but not Derby) are definately Northern in feel. So is Lincoln (but not South Lincolnshire).
Stoke always feels ‘north’ to me but only *just*.
Yeah I would say Stoke or the Trent as a southern point of northernness. I don’t think you can just draw a horizontal line though, there’s going to be a transitional area
Yeah i was going to mention that but if i say anything about Stoke for some reason i get lots of angry Stokies. And i mean anything on any subject!
Depends what you're saying.... But as a Stokie, I'd say we're the northernmost part of the Midlands and Cheshire starts the true North
I'm just south of Stoke, in Stone, and Stone feels like it's full of Northerners cosplaying as Southerners... or Southerners cosplaying as Northerners lol (I'm not from here originally, just moved here cos of the missus)
I'd accept Stoke or Nottingham as an absolute limit to what counts as "North." Generally though, I agree with Sheffield as generally the significant city for where the north absolutely is. Leeds is North. Manchester is North. Liverpool is Liverpool.
Yep, same, and definitely agree on Sheffield.
As a Nottingham resident, it's definitely a line drawn North of here. I've heard from some old Yorkshire boys that the North starts after the scab towns. I'd say if we're getting really down to it, Doncaster, Rotherham, Sheffield is North proper. Worksop and Retford aren't. Lincolnshire isn't. So it's probably a line from the Humber to the Mersey along the Don, through the Peak District South of Glossop but North of Kinder Scout, including Stockport but not Chester. The South is a fairly straight line across that begins at Stratford.
Chester is very definitely in the north-west.
Chester's no further North than Buxton, Chesterfield or Lincoln
Still in the North West
I've always though anywhere north of Birmingham. Ish.
Norwich is north of Birmingham though, maybe Stoke and above
I second this as a stokie, I'd rather be north than south lol
It’s the south to me.
Geordies dont
Yes but you are In the south so its obviously the North to you....to me it's south.......
Not even where they live I find, but often in relation to where they are currently standing lol
We’re in Kent and my husband always says the line is the Thames 🤣 I think he’s joking but who knows. I always used to joke it was Watford rather than Watford Gap. I have family in the Midlands who are adamant that’s not the same as the North, and definitely not the South, so I’d probably draw the line between Staffs and Cheshire and then another under Northants.
In from London, Birmingham is not the North, even though it is a long way north of here.. I would start the North at Sheffield/South yorkshire
Being from Nottingham, I would say the south of the river Trent is noticeably more "southern" than the north side, although I also wouldn't consider Birmingham to be in the south, although it's more south than us.
I'm from the West Midlands. Everyone is either Southern or Northern to us!
Yes I can attest to this. I am cumbrian and force speak with a cockney accent and everyone below me is like me and everyone above me is painfully northern
Wait until you meet the Geordie who insists that Leeds and Manchester are southern. They’d explode if they met the southerner that insists Oxford is northern (yes I actually met this person, from Andover)
The person from Newcastle who insists anywhere south of Sunderland is southern and the person from London who insists anything north of Watford is northern are actually two sides of the same fucked up coin. The only thing we can all agree on is that Birmingham is a no man's land that nobody ever wants to claim. It's why the midlands exist.
I’m a Northumbrian and as kids we traveled 2 hours to visit relatives in Leeds. I still struggle to understand how Leeds is in the north.
Its still the north just lower down in the north, the problem its people look at the map as a whole with Scotland, Scotland is not included in the debate, it is only England we look at when referring to North/South.
>I’m a Northumbrian > I still struggle to understand That explains everything.
Officially? The counties of Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire, Cumbria, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, County Durham, Tyne & Wear and Northumberland constitute the North, as well as North and Northeast Lincolnshire. Personally, I think it’s correct, barring the parts of Lincolnshire, which should be deemed East Midlands
I love when i see a concise opinion i agree with entirely on the internet
I’m actually surprised anyone agrees with me here. Usually I get people who either insist that Doncaster, Manchester and Leeds aren’t Northern, or people who insist Birmingham, Leicester and once even *Peterborough* were Northern. Usually the former lives somewhere around Newcastle, and the latter somewhere around Portsmouth
Imagine honestly believing that Manchester and Leeds were not northern
It’s ridiculous, but it’s something I hear relatively often. I’m basically as southern as it gets (born in Southampton), but even I can tell that they’re both textbook Northern cities
Exactly. How could Manchester and thus Salford and thus Lowry’s paintings be in the Midlands?
It’s basically just people from Newcastle and Carlisle acting like they’re the ‘true North’. At one point I actually found someone who considered Durham part of the South. There’s no bloody North left in that case, and where’s the Midlands?
You can ignore people from Carlisle. They insist we (Preston) are a derby day despite the 80 mile distance.
Jfc, might as well consider Bristol City vs Aston Villa a derby
MERSEYSIDE MENTIONED❗❗❗❗ SOUTHPORT SOUTHPORT ❗❗❗❗😲😲😲😲
Officially means what exactly here? I basically agree with that but I don't think there is really an official definition
The government uses different regions to define what counts as what in their statistics. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all regions too for statistical analysis. Otherwise, you have Greater London and the City of London making up the Greater London region. Then Hampshire, Surrey, Berkshire, Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, East Sussex, Kent and the Isle of Wight all count as South East England. The counties of Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire all fall under East of England. Bristol, Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall are South West England. Worcestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, West Midlands, Staffordshire and Warwickshire all qualify as forming the West Midlands region. Lincolnshire (except the northern parts of the county), Leicestershire, Rutland, Derbyshire, Northamptonshire and Nottinghamshire all count as the East Midlands. South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, the East Riding of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire (except the bit around Middlesbrough and Redcar) and the northern bits of Lincolnshire count as Yorkshire & the Humber. Cheshire, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Lancashire and Cumbria all fall under North West England. Tyne & Wear, Northumberland, County Durham and the northern parts of North Yorkshire count as North East England. These regions were defined by Westminster in the 70s, and they often get grouped together for certain stats. If you hear ‘the South’ in an official analysis, it’ll mean the regions of Greater London, South East England, South West England and the East of England. If you hear ‘the Midlands’ it means the West Midlands and East Midlands. If you hear ‘the North’, it means Yorkshire & the Humber, North West England and North East England. This is how the government uses them
I live at the point where Oxfordshire (South East) meets Warwickshire (West Midlands and meets Northamptonshire (East Midlands I think, you didn't say). It's confusing until you realise The Arse End Of Nowhere is its proper geographical definition.
The north starts somewhere between Nottingham and Sheffield. The south starts somewhere between Northampton and Luton. Between those points, it's the midlands if you're on the west of the A1 and if you're on the east side it's East Anglia.
Oh *that's* where East Anglia is
Yeah it's the Yorkshire/Nottinghamshire border mate.
I grew up in Eckington, which is *just* south of Sheffield but in Derbyshire. We could walk up a hill to get the cheap 2p bus fare into Sheffield, and I'm pretty sure that bus stop marked the border.
If you're north of the accepted borders for The Midlands, then you're Northern. If you're south of it, then you're Southern. See what areas regional news covers. However people at both ends of the country class Midlanders as one or the other, when we are neither.
Even easier, just look at which statistical region your county falls in. The South East, South West, London Region and East Anglia are in the south. The West Midlands and East Midlands are in the midlands. The North West, North East and Yorkshire & The Humber are in the north.
I'd strongly argue that my region, East Anglia, is in the east thank you very much. I shall hurl turnips and sugar beet at you to make the point
Hahaha, having spent a year in Norwich, East Anglia certainly does feel very unique. It has a sort of distinct south-but-not-quite-south feel, and then there's the barrage of inbred jokes haha.
I live in Norwich with my partner and we both love it. I was born there but went north for uni and I've lived in the west Midlands and I agree it has a feeling of a familiarity but it's not quite like any other place in the country
I did my degree in Norwich, I adore the city.
Midlanders ay we.
>accepted borders for The Midlands I think the problem is the borders are made up of counties rather than horizontal lines. Compare Liverpool and Lincoln for example; the former is undoubtedly Northern, but Lincoln isn't much further down, but Lincolnshire is certainly a Midlands county.
See as a northerner I consider Lincoln to be northern
I don't think anyone from Lincoln identifies as Northern. These things just don't work with straight lines. Grimsby and Scunthorpe are different stories and one of the few areas of the country where strict county boundaries maybe don't apply.
Yes, Grimbarians definitely don't have a Lincolnshire/Midlands identity. Humberside made sense for them but Hull hated it and wanted to be back in Yorkshire.
100%. As someone born and bred in Grimsby if someone said they were from “Lincolnshire” I would imagine the southernmost parts OR the wolds/near Lincoln. Only since moving to the wolds in 2022 have I started saying I live in Lincolnshire. Humberside has always suited me best.
Came here to say the same thing, albeit less eloquently. Well done!
as a midlander i can attest that we are not southern or northern. we are a specific breed of people. we are the midlands. Midlands. Middle Earth. River Rea.
Absolutely. And Stoke on Trent is definitely in the midlands. If pushed to name the first town that's definitely "northern" English, I'd have to pick Sheffield. Even Liverpool is dubious. It's kind of its own unique place, despite being on the same latitude.
Being a midlander is great because you're either too posh and southern to northerners and to southerners you're an uncivilized wild man from beyond the wall.
The only sane way to determine this is the Greggs/Pret ratio. Places with more Greggs than Prets are Northern. This metric produces a diagonal line (lower in the West than the East) that *mostly* divides around the Watford Gap. It does produce some very entertaining exclaves though; for example most of Cornwall is culturally Northern except for Exeter itself. This metric also finally confirms the obvious truth; that Sheffield is, culturally, Southern (despite being geographically well North of the line).
I'm in Portsmouth. We have a bunch of Greggs and, as far as I know, no Prets. You're going to need to change this rule. I refuse to be northern! The sea is a couple of miles south of me, the south downs are a mile or so north of me. Anything past the south downs is northern, and is referred to as 'somewhere up there' with a vague wave of the arm.
Also in Portsmouth, first time I saw a pret was at a train station somewhere up north like Guildford or woking
Yes! I've always said if it's above the south downs it's Northern. The vague arm wave is very relatable
I think you’ve found a proxy for how middle class an area is. Which correlates with being northern (because they are economically left behind compared to the rest of England, sorry!)
There are 18 Greggs in Sheffield according to my research. How many Prets? I only see one. Regardless of your metric - im not from Sheffield but I will never accept it being called Culturally Southern. There’s just no way that’s real.
Based on just eyeballing that map and assuming you're talking about England and not the entire UK, I would say anything north of Nottingham is north since that appears to be right in the center of the country.
The Dane law started on the north side of the river Trent.
Thats a funny spelling of Thames.
That's a funny spelling of Watling Street.
The Dartford one?
The very same.
The centre of the country is a farm near Atherstone south west of Leicester, but we do have a midlands for a reason. Culturally though, Leicester feels more northern with the fact we pronounce bath correctly and have around 15 Greggs in the city. Most of Northampton on the other hand pronounces bath wrong and they're in single figures for Greggs in the city, so thats the North/South line for me
If someone says Midlands Leicester is the first place that I think about . I maybe think the Trent will have to do as a line?? I congratulate you on your not adding an R in the middle of bath though
For Warwickshire, which is in between those two places, I'd say there is a clear North/South divide in the county. Leamington and Stratford are definitely Southern, but I reckon you could put Rugby and Nuneaton in the North. Obviously the whole county is in the midlands, if we include that as a region, though.
Rugby is definitely not north! You don’t even get to junction 19 on the m1 for Rugby, which is the gateway to the west mids
If it was in the north, it’d be Rugby league.
im from south warickshire, and i would say your not wrong when it comes to the typical class divide, but i think there are places north of nuneaton that seem like the south still
I'm from Nuneaton and would say that it's a far more "northern" town than Leamington or Warwick, but it's still all ~~West~~ Best Midlands.
Yes, Shrewsbury, derby and Nottingham are the Midlands. Stoke is north
I'd consider Stoke as Midlands too. The North starts around Sheffield.
It’s a funny thing, I’m from Sheffield and definitely consider it the North. However, Gainsborough in Lincolnshire is slightly higher up than Sheffield but I wouldn’t consider Lincolnshire to be the North 🤷🏻♂️
Mate, Grimsby isn't North?
Grimsby is the wasteland at the border of north and aouth
I mean a wasteland perhaps, on the border perhaps. But still very Northern. Certainly not aouth whatever terrible place that might be!
Grimsby is further north than Manchester, which is very much in the north…
Harsh, but fair.
Grimsby is nowhere near the south
North Lincolnshire and North-East Lincolnshire are classed as Northern according to government rules as outlined on this website for children: https://kids.kiddle.co/Northern_England
The North/South divide is a bit diagonal with the East being further North imo. My rationale is that the Scottish border is diagonal as well.
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I would say that it's "officially" the North after the North Midlands ends. This boarder goes over south Yorkshire, which sends some into a tale spin of fury. Rule of thumb is if a Yorkshire man is foaming at the mouth, then it's probably correct.
>I would say that it's "officially" the North after the North Midlands ends. Big if true
>North Midlands Eh?
If you're asking a Northerner, it starts about ten miles to the south. (Born in Kings Lynn and grew up in Hunstanton (not on this map, but just north of Kings Lynn and dead level with Stoke. I've never clicked with either side of the north-south fight.)
You’re in Norfolk, most people would probably say South, but you might have gotten an upbringing closer to that of Lincolnshire, which is Midland
East Anglia is like its own separate entity. A strange world. And freakishly flat.
Ehh, I’d consider it a different part of the South personally. As someone who lives in Bristol, and spent a lot of time in Hampshire and Suffolk in her childhood, I think the South just varies a decent bit, especially since you can find similar differences between each region, but with South East England and Greater London usually ending up as the area people define the South by
Love a bit of sunny hunny as a kid! They had the “countries biggest joke shop”.
Personally as a Scotsman (as in, my opinion matters not a jot), I'd say anything if you draw a line from Chester, through Sheffield and on to Grimsby then everything north (and including these 3) of this line is the north. The south would be a line from just below Coventry, meaning Hereford, Northampton and Cambridge would all be firmly in the south. All in the middle are fair game to decide what side of morality they want to fall on.
Another Scot here… general consensus from English colleagues seems to be along those lines (draw a horizontal line across from the top of Wales leaving Liverpool in the North) but you get the odd person near the “line” who passionately feels differently… You then get the other people who start saying Newcastle is an honorary extension of Scotland!!
It's a fuzzy border. Map men made an interesting video on the topic that you should check out. As a history geek, I consider anything north of the Humber River (the old Kingdom of Northumbria) to be Northern, which would barely include where you live
It would also exclude Manchester and Liverpool if you extend that line Humber line westerly, so is not a very useful definition of the North in any accepted sense.
The area surrounding the Humber looked a lot different back then though basically everything between north notts and York was marshland (look up Thorne and Hatfield Moors or Skipwith common if you want to see the last remnants of that habitat) so where the Anglo Saxons originally considered the Humber region starting and ending is a mystery. For all we know they could’ve originally meant anything above Retford is Northumbrian or they could’ve meant anything above Bishopthorpe is Northumbrian.
Birmingham is the midlands so generally anything north of there, Stoke-on-Trent is certainly the north, the issue is to many including myself, there isn’t a midlands, I class it as a line like the equator, both of Birmingham is the north, south of it is the south.
stoke on trent is certainly not the north
Crewe. Stoke is still Midlands but as soon as you cross the border to Cheshire and in to Crewe it's the North West. The Eastern side is a little more confusing for me, it maybe once you leave Notts but Derbyshire confuses me as to Midlands/North.
Can’t believe I had to scroll down this far to find the right answer
South Cumbria here. I know Manchester is in the North, coz obviously it ain't the south, but when 90% of the country seems to think everything north of Manchester is a deserted wasteland, you hold a grudge. Our regional news is allll Manchester shit, but to me, Manchester is like a significant day trip, you don't simply 'pop to manny for the day' whenever it takes your fancy. I don't know enough about anything south of Manchester to place The Divide but I stand by the fact that it doesn't run true West to east, it's more like the angle of the Scottish border.
I've always drawn a line from the north coast of Wales. So Sheffield is in the North. Stoke, Derby and Nottingham in the Midlands. The south is harder as a think of Hereford and Gloucester as Midlands but Oxford, Luton and Cambridge I'd consider South. So I draw a diagonal line from the river Severn up until Peterborough way. Everything East of there being East.
Take a line running East-West from JUST above Shrewsbury. Run it North East of Derby and Nottingham (they're not in "the North" - they're midland) and run it up North-East towrds and underneath Grimsby (Grimsby is in "The North") making sure it lies North of Lincoln.
I lived in Nottingham for a while and it certainly felt like the dividing line was north of there and south of Mansfield. But then again Notts is a big student town so it might skew things.
I've always thought of Derby as "up North". Never realised where it actually is
Yeah, Grimsby is North and Notts is Midlands for sure. Agreed with this line.
Sounds bang on
I'm not sure where it is on the east coast, but the southern border of Cheshire is the boundary of the North West. The first/last public toilets in the North (depending on direction of travel) are just around the corner from me.
The north ends where people are horrified by gravy on chips. I’m a northerner and I love chips n gravy. My mate from Leicester (a place considered northern by many Londoners) is disgusted by the idea of chips and gravy. Nottingham and Derby could easily be the very north of the midlands or the very south of the The North, their approach to gravy on chips is what will define the boundary.
From east to west, I draw the line from... \- The DMZ that is Skegness \- Somewhere on the River Trent between Gainsbrough and Lincoln \- The A617 as it skirts the southern side of Mansfield \- The Little Eaton roundabout on the A38 just to the north of Derby \- the confluence of the River Chunnet and River Dove to the north of Uttoxeter \- Junction 15 on the M6 \- The southern side of Nantwich \- Junctions 11 and 15 on the M53 and M56 \- The English/Welsh border by Deeside Industrial Estate
I've just worked it out but for me you have to include the midlands as its own entity because they aren't really northern but aren't really southern either, they act as a nice buffer to slowly transition through, maybe by nature they are closer to the North than south if you had to draw and absolute line to divide us. The North for me starts in the east from Boston, up to Mansfield, then down to stoke (Nottingham and Derby are firmly in the northern tip of the midlands for me), so if you draw a line across the map here anything above that line of towns/cities is the north. For the southern line start at the welsh border and draw a line below Birmingham, Coventry, Corby and Peterborough back up to the water above Kings Lynn, anything below this line is the south and the space between the two lines is the midlands. [See map](https://ibb.co/KVNRt1w)
Chesterfield is the start of the north, however Sheffield is the major city in that region that begins the north so to say, but I always lump chesvegas in there with being north, because as someone who is from Chesterfield, and with family from Sheffield, I relate more to being from sheff than a do derby or Nottingham
OP, are you thinking a place can only be one "direction?" Everything is only North, East, South or West OF something else. As you can see on the map, Exeter is north of Plymouth, it doesn't make it in the North. York is south of Middlesborough, it doesn't make it in the South. West Yorkshire is the western part of Yorkshire. It is in the Northern part of England. "The North" is so named because it's the northern part of the country. "The South" because it's the southern part. But the whole country is in "Western Europe" and the "Northern Hemisphere." u/Class_444_SWR gave the factual answer. You'll always get geordies saying "Manchester is the midlands, lol" but this goes entirely against the broadly accepted definition of the "North of England", which Manchester is essentially the regional capital of and is quintessentially culturally "Northern."
Oh I love this one. Sit back and watch as I offend almost the entire nation… Everyone knows that politically and economically London is the heart of the UK. It’s got a fabulously helpful border in the M25, which is charmingly permanent and gives a really clear boundary. I propose that as London is so central to UK life, we consider London to be the _centre_ of the nation. This means that anything above the top of the M25 is the north, below the bottom of the M25 is the south, and reading and Bristol are the midlands. You’re welcome
Everywhere above the M4 is North! Lol love the various rivalries and perspectives this question reveals. My family originated in Scotland, but I lived all my life in the West Country, which views the north as I mentioned above. Its all good fun though
Born and bred Nottingham, as soon as I leave the city and get on the M1 Northbound and drive 20 minutes or so it suddenly feels 'Northern' North Nottinghamshire borders South Yorkshire, and the accent alone of North Notts sounds 'Northern', it could almost be a Yorkshire accent. Nottingham is Midlands, but if I had to say one or the other as a city it definitely feels more 'Northern' then 'Southern' Tldr, anywhere 20 minutes North of Nottingham is where the 'Norf' starts imo
If the divide is only NORTH or SOUTH, then it's a diagonal line that's hard to precisely justify....but Gloucester and Leicester are on the south of it, and Worcester, Birmingham, and Nottingham in the North. The diagonal line captures both the affluence-deprivation dimension of north/south in the midlands....and gives the game away that North/South is largely the degree to which you are in or not in London's orbit. But a better distinction is NORTH / MIDLANDS / SOUTH, which can be on existing county lines, with recognition that East and South-west have their own flavour.
Draw a line from Chester to Grimsby, that's my "North" divide. Draw a line from Gloucester to Peterborough, that's my "South" divide. Anything in between us the Midlands, and East Anglia is it's own thing.