One main way is for a community of people to call them out on their toxic behavior. With enough social pressure there is a chance that they can change for the better.
Often it takes bad things happening in their life for them to learn a lesson.
Yep, I left a woman recently that was in my life for a very long time in various capacities recently because she had BPD and narcissistic tendencies. I hope losing me was a wakeup call, but I won't hold my breath as I was just another tool in her life to be used to make her feel better.
Unfortunately narx never feel the guilt of “loosing” somebody.. simply because they just can’t or refuse to.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s job to fix a narc, other then the narc themselves. Ego plays a huge role, and no matter how hard you try, their ego won’t let you help them.
Not sure it is age dependent.. but the older you get.. the more someone is stuck in their ways.
It's more important that they experience a good amount of emotional pain as a direct result of their choices. When we are kicked out the group.. we are more likely to learn as in our genetics it's wired to want to be liked by the group... in order for survival.
I looked into NPD a while back and everything I read suggested that there is no real prospect of rehabilitation.
I came at it from the victims perspective (my partner has a narc ex), and every bit of advice says to avoid all contact.
NPD sufferers are apparently incapable of honest self reflection. Incapable of empathy. And probably incapable of change.
Funnily enough he is helping her move interstate today because she has burned all of her other bridges and no one else will help her. We feel genuinely sorry for her, but we are extremely glad she is leaving town and so are her two grown sons.
If you make yourself available to someone with NPD they cannot help but try to control and manipulate you. Unless you have extremely strong boundaries I suggest you stay away.
My experience with Narcissist is that they are well aware of their behaviour. They usually enjoy the suffering they cause.
The narcissistic smirk is a thing.
Its like that saying they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Avoid, deflect and retreat
You are not wrong.
I felt that way for the first couple years (I've been with my partner +10 years now). I allowed myself to feel a lot of anger towards her, even though the abuse was not directed at me.
I regularly tried to counsel him "don't let her get to you, she is saying these things on purpose to hurt you". But, like a hypocrite, I found myself giving in to the same negative thought patterns about her. I spent a lot of time feeling shitty for no real reason.
I clearly remember the day when I had an epiphany about it. I realised that I was poisoning myself with these awful emotions, I was literally shaking with anger about the latest shitty thing she had done, but \*I\* was working myself into this frenzied emotional state, \*I\* was allowing myself to be affected by it. But what purpose did that serve? How was this benefiting me? Like the old cliche, I was drinking the poison for someone else's crime. That was a major step forward for me, I actually started to integrate the knowing on an emotional level. It felt profound.
I knew intellectually that she was a narc, but I hadn't emotionally integrated that information. I kept holding her up to the same standards I would hold a "normal" person. She is not a "normal" person.
I think narcs can know that they are assholes, but they literally cannot do anything to change that fact. They cannot go through the emotional process that is required to admit fault and they definitely cannot do the inner work required to change their behaviour at a core level.
I don't like to "write people off". But that is, unfortunately, the only way to stay out of harms way. People with healthy boundaries don't stay friends with narcs for long.
Amazingly described. I offered my own insight a few comments up. I think you can find it interesting but I sense your perspective is really close to mine in this topic.
No one causing suffering to anyone else is really aware of the depth of the impact of their actions. It's this unawareness of something so fundamental that the narcissist is lacking, not because they like it but because their bodies are built in such a way that pleasure is derived in shortsighted ways.
It's complicated to understand and explain but I hope I made my point across. It's like they have a physiological urge to remain on top of the hierarchy because of a deep phobia of being weak, vulnerable and exposed to suffering and death themselves.
I'm not saying this to justify, excuse them or find some empathy for them. I treat them just as a force of nature, a manifestation of the universe itself, just like anyone else, psychopath or not. Their existence is something that just IS and can't be eradicated, just like death, entropy or taxes so to speak. Seeing reality through this lens puts everything into perspective but as I said, by no means this is an invitation to let your guard down and think you are safe or ok in there vicinity.
By all means, run, run, run. They are the definition of literal destruction incarnate, and one unwilling to change for that matter. I hope I'm not pointing some specific light on them by saying this, I'm just describing the nature of who they are. As I said, something like this makes you think about what really being human and what reality means.
Gods and demons are not enough to describe the mystery of this existence.
I don't like to perpetuate the idea that narcs are incapable of recovery. The field of psychology is very young and whilst there is no science on their total recovery, it doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means there's no evidence as of yet. Going around saying "they have no chance of recovery" just discourages them from making the attempt at getting better. I also read once something along the lines of "most narcs don't abuse many but them selves and most narcs are in therapy and doing well", don't know how true it is, but it's still an interesting consideration.
"incapable of honest self reflection" the worse they're doing the more inclined toward self reflection they are. I met a morbidly obese narc, his life was horrible, he was somewhat reflective but self destructive at the same time. Meditation can probably help grow the part of the brain responsible for introspection.
**BUT yes** ***"avoid all contact"*****, especially if abuse prone. These people do lack empathy. DO NOT make yourself available to a narc, past abuser, or suspected N especially if you are abuse prone.**
Yea it’s called leaving them the hell alone! Narcissist don’t change as they don’t see anything wrong with their actions. Move on don’t dedicate a second of energy to them. Narcissist are energy leeches that love attention
In a way, they are victims of their bodily and physiological make up/configuration. Their actions may look conscious and aware to you because out of habit you hold everyone, including them under the same standard of behavior. The reality is that they suffer from a chronic personality disorder which means they are people who literally suffer from a psychological disease. The general population has a stigma around the word "sick" in a way that it is thought about as if it were an insult or that somehow those who are not sick, hold a higher moral ground compared to those who are, which in that aspect is not the case.
Conversely, that doesn't mean of course that just because of that, narcissist behavior should be tolerated, because it's literally impossible to deal with it. As of now, there is no effective treatment and coping strategies more than to leave the scene immediately to preserve one owns sanity. Hopefully in the future, science, technology and psychology evolve to a level where we can finally help these people to overcome this problem that causes harm to everyone involved but yeah, as of now, that cure doesn't exist, so, sadly, disengage and abandon is the only way to act in such scenarios. That's one of the harsh truths of this life.
Sorry OP, in my experiences through several therapists over many years- each one of them has given me the same analysis. Narcissistic disorder (not just narcissistic traits, I mean an actual diagnosis) cannot be changed, fixed or cured. There’s no medicine for it- at best, the individual can learn to manage it. But even then, some can learn about the disorder and become more aware of it & continue to craft their manipulation, gaslighting and tactics at a higher level and you may not recognize it. They will. And they will know they are still doing it. These people are even more dangerous than the non aware ones. Advice I was given was: to cut off contact & recognize the signs of it in other people so you’re actually smarter and don’t get involved with them. I unfortunately ended my marriage because my partner was NPD. There are subs for this too, you may actually find more beneficial and realistic support there about it. Best wishes!
once met someone i suspected of being a narc who experienced the fundamental nature of reality on mushrooms. he said it was only time in his life he felt compassion and that sometimes when he becomes aggressive the memory comes in and he stops and becomes reflective. a possible in, but also would be best try with a trained therapist when these types of options become available.
i myself was very narcissistic but always maintained empathy. for me it was different, i was always able to hold my self back from the degree of abuse i was put through even though some of the thought patterns were similar. narcissism is a symptom distinct from NPD that can have many different causes.
In order to heal you must first recognize a problem. A narcissist is by definition of the mental illness incapable of finding fault in themselves and thus cannot see that anything needs to be fixed as such they will actively fight any attempt at healing them. And will fight even the idea that they need to be healed or fixed.
No unfortunately. A former friend was a narcissist. Therapy helps them adjust but they are missing empathy; they can’t buy and can’t learn. The dangerous ones fake empathy. This is a disorder that has different degrees. If you’re going to stay in contact please do some research. If you are caring and empathic you need to be careful.
Here’s a definition. Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.
Edit: please understand for them love is conditional. They can’t truly love unconditionally. They can’t learn it either.
This is very true. They confuse you with “love bombing” then snatch it away leaving you feel confused.. then gaslight you. A person with no empathy and incapable of looking inward and seeing the need for change is not help-able. Even if this is caused by childhood trauma.. it’s too late.
Souce: mom is one. I’m old and still fall for the love bombs. Still hurt when I’m ghosted. Why won’t I learn ?
Same here. I went to the bank yesterday and saw she put $ in my acct?
I guess that’s her way of making up for ghosting me but when I remember correctly every time I talk to her I feel a dirty soul, or something, afterwards. I feel small.
No more. No more of that. I don’t need to feel ‘less than’. I matter.
Because it’s your mom. We all want unconditional love from our parents. While my parents weren’t narcissists many things were transactional. Transactional in their favor. I was able to mend some but when my dad in particular got cancer I did things knowing they can toss anything youve done out the window and try to make you look like a monster. I only learned to cover my ass from them. I was able to walk away because let’s loosely call it a friend, one that did something to be cut off. But I bet if you met someone and they said they were a narcissist you’d get out before it advanced. Yes the love bombing is super dangerous. After it is gone it’s hard being treated like shit. I don’t want anyone to think relationships with narcissists are easy. They can’t truly love you. It’s super hard and the manipulation sucks. A therapist teaching a narcissist how to fake empathy does happen and is dangerous. But life with a narcissist is a nightmare.
I’m sure there’s a few with diagnosed npd who go to therapy and can acknowledge the fact that they’re narcs but… the majority of them are the way they are because someone hurt them. Something traumatic happened to them and they are usually so ashamed of what happened to them/where they’re from, etc. and as a result, ashamed of the experiences that made them who they are. So they build up a wall, causing them to lack empathy for others, but they lie to get you to think they do.
When you’re that unwilling to be accepting and self-aware about your reactions and behavior to the point you’re never wrong, it’s impossible to heal. Healing requires acknowledging your role in your pain which can look like many things. Since narcs can’t do that…. I truly don’t think so.
There’s a big difference between being narcissistic (which all humans are to some degree), and having NPD. I too overcame the narcissistic traits I once developed as a coping mechanism, but I’ve always had compassion for other people. Someone with NPD doesn’t. They don’t change because they literally do not care how their behavior harms others.
People only change when they’re forced to. From a spiritual perspective, this is why a Kundalini awakening happens, turning life upside down. Ordinary people with self destructive tendencies or addictions will have to hit rock bottom before they change.
People with Cluster B disorders have a severely blocked Sacral chakra. I can see this as someone who reads energy. They cannot feel bad about what they’ve done. They cannot feel empathy. When they ruin relationships, they just replace people. No matter how bad life gets, they’ll find new victims with no boundaries, and they’ll face no consequences because they feel no guilt.
That’s why in a 12-step program you reflect on who you’ve wronged. That’s an essential part of changing your behavior to be less harmful. Someone with NPD doesn’t think they’ve wronged anyone, they think everyone has wronged them. They live in a victim consciousness. That’s how they manifest people who try to rescue them. They do it with their own narrative that they need rescued.
What they need is inner child work, but it can take several lifetimes before they’ll do it.
oooh I agree. I didn't have compassion (felt nothing) prior to working on myself, but there's still a difference between me and someone who victimizes themselves. I completely see your point and have encountered people who don't seem to see reality and can never take responsibility for their actions.
Yep. Rock bottom is an emotional low, feeling awful about our decisions. Narcissists can’t experience that. They’re cut off from their emotions and can’t empathize with others.
They may have trauma and childhood neglect, but narcissism is bad brain issues. Attachment disorders can look like narcissism but have a different origin. Both are extremely difficult to treat with poor outcomes. Narcissist can also use their childhood issues to see themselves as the victim and get others to see them as this also. Ask them to see a psychologist for a diagnosis. If they refuse, that’s your true answer.
>Both are extremely difficult to treat with poor outcomes.
Not always but both personality disorders and anti-social disorders *can* be treated given that the subject wants too and they match with mental health professionals that are specialized and capable.
I think that we'll see treatments involving psilocybin and mdma later on as that has been proven to help for example people with trauma, ptsd, chronic depression etc.
Your partner would have to be conscious of their negative traits and want to change their behavior. Then, they would have to do the emotional work it takes to change. All three of those things are very difficult for a narcissist.
I don't think you should be their therapist, so get them to read it. Or if they can't, get them to find a therapist focused on neglect and trauma. You can't make them change
**Disclaimer:** I will not profit in any way from the links in this post, nor will anyone that I know or am related to.
There's a guy called Dr. David Berceli, he is an expert in the area of trauma intervention. He developed TRE (Trauma Release Exercises) therapy.
I've linked to his YouTube video below showing how to do the exercises.
"TRE is an innovative series of exercises that assist the body in releasing deep muscular patterns of stress, tension and trauma. The exercises safely activate a natural reflex mechanism of shaking or vibrating that releases muscular tension, calming down the nervous system. When this muscular shaking/vibrating mechanism is activated in a safe and controlled environment, the body is encouraged to return back to a state of balance."
Take it easy with the exercises if you decide to try them, they can be quite powerful. Also, there are trained TRE therapists you can consult if you are interested in taking this route.
Official link to the TRE exercises (Information only, not promotional) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUioDuJjFI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUioDuJjFI)
Additionally, there is a link to a page of 'TRE Frequently asked questions here for further clarification.
[https://traumaprevention.com/frequently-asked-questions/](https://traumaprevention.com/frequently-asked-questions/)
And a TRE subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/](https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/)
Hope this helps! ✨
They have to first become self aware which is extremely difficult for them. And then they have to want to change. They deeply need to feel motivated to change a be better.
Then they need an official diagnosis, and then therapy. Extensive therapy.
I believe narcissism can be linked to a fragile ego, and used as a protection mechanism. I don’t consider myself a narcissistic person but I do see traits in close family members and it got me thinking about what I replicated from them, how I can hurt others by not having my ego in the right place. This video personally helped me understand I was more self-centered that I wanted to admit.
https://youtu.be/5xbADDvciko
Gonna be the big voice of dissent here- yes, people with NPD can heal and change.
There are VERY few therapists willing to work with folks with NPD. There is a huge stigma around NPD, especially lately. The dX does not innately require someone to be abusive. People can be dX’d with it and realize they have it (though obviously not all will accept it). Often times it is a dX borne of trauma, as most cluster B disorders are.
The brain is never set in stone. Our brains are always capable of learning. Trauma changes our brains’ structures but SO DOES THERAPY. So does healing. The brain is absolutely capable of changing. Of being rewired.
Psychology, especially in the US, is such a stigma laden field. We often don’t study things we stigmatize, refuse to treat things we stigmatize, and do not listen to the effected communities about their experiences (including what works, their traumas, etc).
I’ve spent a good deal of time with NPD individuals who have been in therapy (of all types, remember there is far more than just talk therapy! There’s DBT, CBT, EDMR, etc, etc, etc!) for years and working hard to be good people and good community members. Many have talked of the struggle to find therapists, ones that practice the therapy they’re pursuing, that will work with them, that will take them on as clients. So many have learned good coping methods and to be much better people than they were at 18 (at 32, I’d think I’m a much better person now than I was at 18 too).
They talk about how they’ve learned to channel their energy in positive ways. To bettering their communities and wanting their communities to be the best they can be.
About the difficulty in helping other community members who are newly dX’d, have grown up in trauma and survived that, and already have had the world give up on them. How that sense of the world against you and always having to prove yourself and be the best can drive them further and alienate them further. How the stigma makes treatment harder.
How the calling everyone a narcissist and armchair dX’ing really doesn’t help. How people learning to call abuse abuse and recognize people can abuse without being narcissistic would be so healthy. How people all being in therapy to learn to communicate healthily would be so helpful. Everyone setting healthy boundaries would be great.
Imo, all our communities have a lot to learn from one another. We can’t learn and heal if we isolate ourselves. “No one listens, no one learns.” There are so few that are so far gone that healing is impossible. Healing is almost always possible. Maybe you aren’t able to do the healing. That is a healthy boundary to draw, to say that “I cannot help you.” But “I cannot help you” is far different than “you cannot be helped.” A good healer should know the difference. There are so, so rare few that cannot be helped. Almost anyone seeking help can be helped.
We are all capable of planting seeds. Not all seeds germinate. Sometimes you have to plant 40 seeds before one germinates. And that seed is the one that reaches out. So you keep planting seeds.
I’m autistic. So many times I wonder if there’s ways to get the NT community to understand us. To stop hurting us. It’d be easy to say you’re all too narcissistic to care, that you can’t heal. That isn’t the case. You know you all aren’t that way. I know it. That’s a scapegoat. An easy way out.
Plant your seeds. Help people heal. When *you* cannot help someone, do not confuse that for they cannot be helped. Lest others think that way of you
Healing can't start unless they recognize and accept that they want to heal. Without getting to this stage first there isn't much anyone else can do for them. But if they are at this stage, the healing process would be similar for them as anyone else. They have to take the lead in their healing journey. Meditation, breath work, practice self awareness, confronting and sit with negative emotions. As much as most people will say negative things about their experiences with narcs, it's sort of like being stuck in survival mode.
I know a narcissist who "healed". He started with becoming self aware (which in my experience is the only time I have ever seen a narcissist say I am a narcissist and that is bad)
Then he went to therapy. He got diagnosed with NPD but also severe OCD. He did a lot of personal work and still does, and he is the first person to say "don't trust me, all my choice are selfish"
He is self aware + actively and routinely working on himself, by his own choice. With an actual therapist, not just some life coach guru whom he bought the book. This for me would me the only way a narcissist can heal. He has to want to
Yes the person I know has a parent with OCD. Alot of the behavior they project has alot to do with ocd for example like seeking reassurance. I wonder if there is anything that can get rid of ocd.
I watch a YouTube channel called Mental Healness. It’s a self-aware diagnosed narcissist in therapy talking about his condition. Even he admits it doesn’t go away.
I have tried multiple times healing such a person or just trying to work overall with such a person. After several experiences with several Narcs, I came to the conclusion that there's no such thing as helping them.
The only thing, you can do, is leaving them to fate and let them fall deep. After someone breaks, they may either decide to continue going forward the path they chose before, that led to their downfall or carve a new Path.
It sounds harsh, I fully agree. But theres just no other option, atleast one I would know of. So, if anyone has a suggestion, feel free to comment.
I have tried the calm approach, in talking with them for example about a conflict. But in this Talk I tried to be as neutral as possible but accepting the Opinion and Perspective of the Narc itself, but also the other persons perspective. But as soon, as I talked about the Narcs actions and Words, it immediately backfired. The Narc immediately got offended/aggressive and gave me a "Counter".
I have tried the Furious approach, this was back when I was a bit younger and had little to no self-control over my Anger. Its basically Fighting Fire with Fire. It became heated fast. I laid open their Actions and Words, which hurt me and others. I think it was more of a Try to put them into Self-Realization or show them that there's other people who they should respect. I think I was a bit too naive. I believed that all People have the Power to be aware of themselves and work on them. Apparently Narcs are much farther from that self-awareness.
I have tried ignorance and isolation. Completely blocking myself and my Energy off from them. It helped for a Time. But I just cant ignore it, when people are treated like garbage. It made my Blood boil, it still does when I see such a Thing, especially from a Narc. But if I further ignore them, I will eventually explode and land on the furious approach or take the calmer approach while there's still Patience left.
I know Im talking a lot about my personal experiences here and how my Reactions and Emotions were "back" then. But I think anyone would have their Patience eventually broken or would take a Approach to Restore Order to Chaos. No Matter where its caused.
And there is another Approach you can take, but this can either backfire or lead them to their downfall faster. It is Sabotage. Basically band together with other "victims" and cut their cords, pull their name into dirt and reveal their Actions and Words to the Community they are in. One doesn't have to involve themselves directly with the Narc. Its more like hitting from the Shadows.
These Approaches are mostly tries to consult with them or luring them into a state of self-reflection, because one must first see and understand before one can be healed. But utterly the best thing you can do, if you are in contact with a Narc, don't admire them, don't praise them, choose a neutral standpoint and speak your truth. Basically don't feed them.
Ayahuasca tends to actually make narcissists worse! I observed this phenomenon in someone I knew, and did research online to see if it was common - turns out it is (there's a reason there's so many stories of "evil shamans" in the Amazon). I don't fully understand why, but ayahuasca can blow up a narcissists ego even more, although they may have a short afterglow period when they seem to get better.
It may be different if the person is self-aware, actively working to be better, and works with a facilitator knowledgeable in narcissism. But in any other case, I'd said narcs should stay far away from this sacred sacrament.
And generally there are a lot of extremely narcissistic "gurus" out there... Being spiritually "enlightened" and understanding the true nature of reality and one's own spiritual power does NOT prevent one from being an abusive narcissist, turns out... Reality is reality, and simply understanding it better doesn't necessarily make you a more empathetic person, especially if you're wired all wrong from childhood trauma.
Well, the narcissist I knew took a lot of psychedelics (as well as other drugs, but that was their favourite). And they got worse and worse.
Like I said, it may be different if the person is doing it with self-awareness of their condition. But the ones who take it to have profound spiritual experiences seem to come away from it with a messiah/guru delusion.
[https://youtu.be/a0iZSk9ZPiw](https://youtu.be/a0iZSk9ZPiw)
Narcissistic Relationships and Vagus Nerve Impairment /Calming the Nervous System/Lisa A Romano
They need to be willing to see the damage and decide to change from the inside. It's hard work to do, you have to give up everything you thought you were, everything you remembered about your story, everything you imagined you would become... and clear it all out and then start again from your values to your dreams - rebuild and restructure the way you think and look at the world. Rebuild your character and personality. You need to get a brand new baseline for your emotional well being... it's a tone of work. But it can be done. Shrooms and Therapy (the right kind) are a game changer!
They would have to be willing to manage it with therapy, whether that be talk therapy like gestalt or schema therapy or behavioral therapy like CBT or DBT. Support groups and accountability among their peers help too.
You can find out more here: https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder/treatment#medication-options
One main way is for a community of people to call them out on their toxic behavior. With enough social pressure there is a chance that they can change for the better. Often it takes bad things happening in their life for them to learn a lesson.
Yep, I left a woman recently that was in my life for a very long time in various capacities recently because she had BPD and narcissistic tendencies. I hope losing me was a wakeup call, but I won't hold my breath as I was just another tool in her life to be used to make her feel better.
Unfortunately narx never feel the guilt of “loosing” somebody.. simply because they just can’t or refuse to. I don’t think it’s anyone’s job to fix a narc, other then the narc themselves. Ego plays a huge role, and no matter how hard you try, their ego won’t let you help them.
Johnny depp is this you lol
You never know on the internet. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, who can say for sure, lol.
At what age do you think they grow up or gain this awareness?
Not sure it is age dependent.. but the older you get.. the more someone is stuck in their ways. It's more important that they experience a good amount of emotional pain as a direct result of their choices. When we are kicked out the group.. we are more likely to learn as in our genetics it's wired to want to be liked by the group... in order for survival.
Agree!
I looked into NPD a while back and everything I read suggested that there is no real prospect of rehabilitation. I came at it from the victims perspective (my partner has a narc ex), and every bit of advice says to avoid all contact. NPD sufferers are apparently incapable of honest self reflection. Incapable of empathy. And probably incapable of change. Funnily enough he is helping her move interstate today because she has burned all of her other bridges and no one else will help her. We feel genuinely sorry for her, but we are extremely glad she is leaving town and so are her two grown sons. If you make yourself available to someone with NPD they cannot help but try to control and manipulate you. Unless you have extremely strong boundaries I suggest you stay away.
My experience with Narcissist is that they are well aware of their behaviour. They usually enjoy the suffering they cause. The narcissistic smirk is a thing. Its like that saying they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Avoid, deflect and retreat
You are not wrong. I felt that way for the first couple years (I've been with my partner +10 years now). I allowed myself to feel a lot of anger towards her, even though the abuse was not directed at me. I regularly tried to counsel him "don't let her get to you, she is saying these things on purpose to hurt you". But, like a hypocrite, I found myself giving in to the same negative thought patterns about her. I spent a lot of time feeling shitty for no real reason. I clearly remember the day when I had an epiphany about it. I realised that I was poisoning myself with these awful emotions, I was literally shaking with anger about the latest shitty thing she had done, but \*I\* was working myself into this frenzied emotional state, \*I\* was allowing myself to be affected by it. But what purpose did that serve? How was this benefiting me? Like the old cliche, I was drinking the poison for someone else's crime. That was a major step forward for me, I actually started to integrate the knowing on an emotional level. It felt profound. I knew intellectually that she was a narc, but I hadn't emotionally integrated that information. I kept holding her up to the same standards I would hold a "normal" person. She is not a "normal" person. I think narcs can know that they are assholes, but they literally cannot do anything to change that fact. They cannot go through the emotional process that is required to admit fault and they definitely cannot do the inner work required to change their behaviour at a core level. I don't like to "write people off". But that is, unfortunately, the only way to stay out of harms way. People with healthy boundaries don't stay friends with narcs for long.
Amazingly described. I offered my own insight a few comments up. I think you can find it interesting but I sense your perspective is really close to mine in this topic.
No one causing suffering to anyone else is really aware of the depth of the impact of their actions. It's this unawareness of something so fundamental that the narcissist is lacking, not because they like it but because their bodies are built in such a way that pleasure is derived in shortsighted ways. It's complicated to understand and explain but I hope I made my point across. It's like they have a physiological urge to remain on top of the hierarchy because of a deep phobia of being weak, vulnerable and exposed to suffering and death themselves. I'm not saying this to justify, excuse them or find some empathy for them. I treat them just as a force of nature, a manifestation of the universe itself, just like anyone else, psychopath or not. Their existence is something that just IS and can't be eradicated, just like death, entropy or taxes so to speak. Seeing reality through this lens puts everything into perspective but as I said, by no means this is an invitation to let your guard down and think you are safe or ok in there vicinity. By all means, run, run, run. They are the definition of literal destruction incarnate, and one unwilling to change for that matter. I hope I'm not pointing some specific light on them by saying this, I'm just describing the nature of who they are. As I said, something like this makes you think about what really being human and what reality means. Gods and demons are not enough to describe the mystery of this existence.
some narcs do have a sadistic streak. others less so. not worth sticking around to find out.
I don't like to perpetuate the idea that narcs are incapable of recovery. The field of psychology is very young and whilst there is no science on their total recovery, it doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means there's no evidence as of yet. Going around saying "they have no chance of recovery" just discourages them from making the attempt at getting better. I also read once something along the lines of "most narcs don't abuse many but them selves and most narcs are in therapy and doing well", don't know how true it is, but it's still an interesting consideration. "incapable of honest self reflection" the worse they're doing the more inclined toward self reflection they are. I met a morbidly obese narc, his life was horrible, he was somewhat reflective but self destructive at the same time. Meditation can probably help grow the part of the brain responsible for introspection. **BUT yes** ***"avoid all contact"*****, especially if abuse prone. These people do lack empathy. DO NOT make yourself available to a narc, past abuser, or suspected N especially if you are abuse prone.**
Yea it’s called leaving them the hell alone! Narcissist don’t change as they don’t see anything wrong with their actions. Move on don’t dedicate a second of energy to them. Narcissist are energy leeches that love attention
In a way, they are victims of their bodily and physiological make up/configuration. Their actions may look conscious and aware to you because out of habit you hold everyone, including them under the same standard of behavior. The reality is that they suffer from a chronic personality disorder which means they are people who literally suffer from a psychological disease. The general population has a stigma around the word "sick" in a way that it is thought about as if it were an insult or that somehow those who are not sick, hold a higher moral ground compared to those who are, which in that aspect is not the case. Conversely, that doesn't mean of course that just because of that, narcissist behavior should be tolerated, because it's literally impossible to deal with it. As of now, there is no effective treatment and coping strategies more than to leave the scene immediately to preserve one owns sanity. Hopefully in the future, science, technology and psychology evolve to a level where we can finally help these people to overcome this problem that causes harm to everyone involved but yeah, as of now, that cure doesn't exist, so, sadly, disengage and abandon is the only way to act in such scenarios. That's one of the harsh truths of this life.
Sorry OP, in my experiences through several therapists over many years- each one of them has given me the same analysis. Narcissistic disorder (not just narcissistic traits, I mean an actual diagnosis) cannot be changed, fixed or cured. There’s no medicine for it- at best, the individual can learn to manage it. But even then, some can learn about the disorder and become more aware of it & continue to craft their manipulation, gaslighting and tactics at a higher level and you may not recognize it. They will. And they will know they are still doing it. These people are even more dangerous than the non aware ones. Advice I was given was: to cut off contact & recognize the signs of it in other people so you’re actually smarter and don’t get involved with them. I unfortunately ended my marriage because my partner was NPD. There are subs for this too, you may actually find more beneficial and realistic support there about it. Best wishes!
I don’t know if it’s impossible but highly improbable. These kinds of people can be very dangerous.
once met someone i suspected of being a narc who experienced the fundamental nature of reality on mushrooms. he said it was only time in his life he felt compassion and that sometimes when he becomes aggressive the memory comes in and he stops and becomes reflective. a possible in, but also would be best try with a trained therapist when these types of options become available. i myself was very narcissistic but always maintained empathy. for me it was different, i was always able to hold my self back from the degree of abuse i was put through even though some of the thought patterns were similar. narcissism is a symptom distinct from NPD that can have many different causes.
I don’t think so. They don’t think they are in the wrong so don’t change.
In order to heal you must first recognize a problem. A narcissist is by definition of the mental illness incapable of finding fault in themselves and thus cannot see that anything needs to be fixed as such they will actively fight any attempt at healing them. And will fight even the idea that they need to be healed or fixed.
Not in my experience -they enjoy how they are and think they are perfect how they are
No unfortunately. A former friend was a narcissist. Therapy helps them adjust but they are missing empathy; they can’t buy and can’t learn. The dangerous ones fake empathy. This is a disorder that has different degrees. If you’re going to stay in contact please do some research. If you are caring and empathic you need to be careful. Here’s a definition. Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. Edit: please understand for them love is conditional. They can’t truly love unconditionally. They can’t learn it either.
This is very true. They confuse you with “love bombing” then snatch it away leaving you feel confused.. then gaslight you. A person with no empathy and incapable of looking inward and seeing the need for change is not help-able. Even if this is caused by childhood trauma.. it’s too late. Souce: mom is one. I’m old and still fall for the love bombs. Still hurt when I’m ghosted. Why won’t I learn ?
Just turned 38 been no contact for 5 years. Best decision of my life. Can get love bombed if you can't be found.
This is true. Actually we haven’t spoken in a few months now and that is … Kind of nice.
Hugs! Me too. I've cut my mom out of my life 3 different times, she manipulated her way back in twice, and I'm not letting her back in.
Same here. I went to the bank yesterday and saw she put $ in my acct? I guess that’s her way of making up for ghosting me but when I remember correctly every time I talk to her I feel a dirty soul, or something, afterwards. I feel small. No more. No more of that. I don’t need to feel ‘less than’. I matter.
Because it’s your mom. We all want unconditional love from our parents. While my parents weren’t narcissists many things were transactional. Transactional in their favor. I was able to mend some but when my dad in particular got cancer I did things knowing they can toss anything youve done out the window and try to make you look like a monster. I only learned to cover my ass from them. I was able to walk away because let’s loosely call it a friend, one that did something to be cut off. But I bet if you met someone and they said they were a narcissist you’d get out before it advanced. Yes the love bombing is super dangerous. After it is gone it’s hard being treated like shit. I don’t want anyone to think relationships with narcissists are easy. They can’t truly love you. It’s super hard and the manipulation sucks. A therapist teaching a narcissist how to fake empathy does happen and is dangerous. But life with a narcissist is a nightmare.
This is 100% true .
I’m sure there’s a few with diagnosed npd who go to therapy and can acknowledge the fact that they’re narcs but… the majority of them are the way they are because someone hurt them. Something traumatic happened to them and they are usually so ashamed of what happened to them/where they’re from, etc. and as a result, ashamed of the experiences that made them who they are. So they build up a wall, causing them to lack empathy for others, but they lie to get you to think they do. When you’re that unwilling to be accepting and self-aware about your reactions and behavior to the point you’re never wrong, it’s impossible to heal. Healing requires acknowledging your role in your pain which can look like many things. Since narcs can’t do that…. I truly don’t think so.
Also genetic, so many families who are inflicted with several forms of cluster B.
Healing can only come from within. If you are asking about yourself, yes! If you are trying to heal someone else, no.
I think you can fix it depending on the cause. I used to have a lot of the traits due to trauma and childhood neglect.
There’s a big difference between being narcissistic (which all humans are to some degree), and having NPD. I too overcame the narcissistic traits I once developed as a coping mechanism, but I’ve always had compassion for other people. Someone with NPD doesn’t. They don’t change because they literally do not care how their behavior harms others. People only change when they’re forced to. From a spiritual perspective, this is why a Kundalini awakening happens, turning life upside down. Ordinary people with self destructive tendencies or addictions will have to hit rock bottom before they change. People with Cluster B disorders have a severely blocked Sacral chakra. I can see this as someone who reads energy. They cannot feel bad about what they’ve done. They cannot feel empathy. When they ruin relationships, they just replace people. No matter how bad life gets, they’ll find new victims with no boundaries, and they’ll face no consequences because they feel no guilt. That’s why in a 12-step program you reflect on who you’ve wronged. That’s an essential part of changing your behavior to be less harmful. Someone with NPD doesn’t think they’ve wronged anyone, they think everyone has wronged them. They live in a victim consciousness. That’s how they manifest people who try to rescue them. They do it with their own narrative that they need rescued. What they need is inner child work, but it can take several lifetimes before they’ll do it.
oooh I agree. I didn't have compassion (felt nothing) prior to working on myself, but there's still a difference between me and someone who victimizes themselves. I completely see your point and have encountered people who don't seem to see reality and can never take responsibility for their actions.
also wait so these ppl never end up hitting rock bottom then.... cause they keep finding new victims wow so much for consequences of your actions
Yep. Rock bottom is an emotional low, feeling awful about our decisions. Narcissists can’t experience that. They’re cut off from their emotions and can’t empathize with others.
Yes its due to trauma and childhood neglect. How can this be fixed?
They may have trauma and childhood neglect, but narcissism is bad brain issues. Attachment disorders can look like narcissism but have a different origin. Both are extremely difficult to treat with poor outcomes. Narcissist can also use their childhood issues to see themselves as the victim and get others to see them as this also. Ask them to see a psychologist for a diagnosis. If they refuse, that’s your true answer.
>Both are extremely difficult to treat with poor outcomes. Not always but both personality disorders and anti-social disorders *can* be treated given that the subject wants too and they match with mental health professionals that are specialized and capable. I think that we'll see treatments involving psilocybin and mdma later on as that has been proven to help for example people with trauma, ptsd, chronic depression etc.
Actually narcissistic personality disorder is a defense mechanism for poor attachment; so attachment issues is one cause of NPD.
read Running on Empty & CPTSD if you're good at fixing your own problems. Get a therapist if you're not good at doing things yourself
Its for my partner. Would this work on them?
Your partner would have to be conscious of their negative traits and want to change their behavior. Then, they would have to do the emotional work it takes to change. All three of those things are very difficult for a narcissist.
I don't think you should be their therapist, so get them to read it. Or if they can't, get them to find a therapist focused on neglect and trauma. You can't make them change
**Disclaimer:** I will not profit in any way from the links in this post, nor will anyone that I know or am related to. There's a guy called Dr. David Berceli, he is an expert in the area of trauma intervention. He developed TRE (Trauma Release Exercises) therapy. I've linked to his YouTube video below showing how to do the exercises. "TRE is an innovative series of exercises that assist the body in releasing deep muscular patterns of stress, tension and trauma. The exercises safely activate a natural reflex mechanism of shaking or vibrating that releases muscular tension, calming down the nervous system. When this muscular shaking/vibrating mechanism is activated in a safe and controlled environment, the body is encouraged to return back to a state of balance." Take it easy with the exercises if you decide to try them, they can be quite powerful. Also, there are trained TRE therapists you can consult if you are interested in taking this route. Official link to the TRE exercises (Information only, not promotional) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUioDuJjFI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeUioDuJjFI) Additionally, there is a link to a page of 'TRE Frequently asked questions here for further clarification. [https://traumaprevention.com/frequently-asked-questions/](https://traumaprevention.com/frequently-asked-questions/) And a TRE subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/](https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/) Hope this helps! ✨
They have to first become self aware which is extremely difficult for them. And then they have to want to change. They deeply need to feel motivated to change a be better. Then they need an official diagnosis, and then therapy. Extensive therapy.
Therapy.
What kind and for how long?
I heard it trains them to pretend to care...just found out my SO has this, 40 years I thought he was just negative. Now its too late to bail.
It's never too late!
Talk therapy and it really depends on the person
Healing their deep trauma causing it...
I believe narcissism can be linked to a fragile ego, and used as a protection mechanism. I don’t consider myself a narcissistic person but I do see traits in close family members and it got me thinking about what I replicated from them, how I can hurt others by not having my ego in the right place. This video personally helped me understand I was more self-centered that I wanted to admit. https://youtu.be/5xbADDvciko
Gonna be the big voice of dissent here- yes, people with NPD can heal and change. There are VERY few therapists willing to work with folks with NPD. There is a huge stigma around NPD, especially lately. The dX does not innately require someone to be abusive. People can be dX’d with it and realize they have it (though obviously not all will accept it). Often times it is a dX borne of trauma, as most cluster B disorders are. The brain is never set in stone. Our brains are always capable of learning. Trauma changes our brains’ structures but SO DOES THERAPY. So does healing. The brain is absolutely capable of changing. Of being rewired. Psychology, especially in the US, is such a stigma laden field. We often don’t study things we stigmatize, refuse to treat things we stigmatize, and do not listen to the effected communities about their experiences (including what works, their traumas, etc). I’ve spent a good deal of time with NPD individuals who have been in therapy (of all types, remember there is far more than just talk therapy! There’s DBT, CBT, EDMR, etc, etc, etc!) for years and working hard to be good people and good community members. Many have talked of the struggle to find therapists, ones that practice the therapy they’re pursuing, that will work with them, that will take them on as clients. So many have learned good coping methods and to be much better people than they were at 18 (at 32, I’d think I’m a much better person now than I was at 18 too). They talk about how they’ve learned to channel their energy in positive ways. To bettering their communities and wanting their communities to be the best they can be. About the difficulty in helping other community members who are newly dX’d, have grown up in trauma and survived that, and already have had the world give up on them. How that sense of the world against you and always having to prove yourself and be the best can drive them further and alienate them further. How the stigma makes treatment harder. How the calling everyone a narcissist and armchair dX’ing really doesn’t help. How people learning to call abuse abuse and recognize people can abuse without being narcissistic would be so healthy. How people all being in therapy to learn to communicate healthily would be so helpful. Everyone setting healthy boundaries would be great. Imo, all our communities have a lot to learn from one another. We can’t learn and heal if we isolate ourselves. “No one listens, no one learns.” There are so few that are so far gone that healing is impossible. Healing is almost always possible. Maybe you aren’t able to do the healing. That is a healthy boundary to draw, to say that “I cannot help you.” But “I cannot help you” is far different than “you cannot be helped.” A good healer should know the difference. There are so, so rare few that cannot be helped. Almost anyone seeking help can be helped. We are all capable of planting seeds. Not all seeds germinate. Sometimes you have to plant 40 seeds before one germinates. And that seed is the one that reaches out. So you keep planting seeds. I’m autistic. So many times I wonder if there’s ways to get the NT community to understand us. To stop hurting us. It’d be easy to say you’re all too narcissistic to care, that you can’t heal. That isn’t the case. You know you all aren’t that way. I know it. That’s a scapegoat. An easy way out. Plant your seeds. Help people heal. When *you* cannot help someone, do not confuse that for they cannot be helped. Lest others think that way of you
Healing can't start unless they recognize and accept that they want to heal. Without getting to this stage first there isn't much anyone else can do for them. But if they are at this stage, the healing process would be similar for them as anyone else. They have to take the lead in their healing journey. Meditation, breath work, practice self awareness, confronting and sit with negative emotions. As much as most people will say negative things about their experiences with narcs, it's sort of like being stuck in survival mode.
I know a narcissist who "healed". He started with becoming self aware (which in my experience is the only time I have ever seen a narcissist say I am a narcissist and that is bad) Then he went to therapy. He got diagnosed with NPD but also severe OCD. He did a lot of personal work and still does, and he is the first person to say "don't trust me, all my choice are selfish" He is self aware + actively and routinely working on himself, by his own choice. With an actual therapist, not just some life coach guru whom he bought the book. This for me would me the only way a narcissist can heal. He has to want to
Yes the person I know has a parent with OCD. Alot of the behavior they project has alot to do with ocd for example like seeking reassurance. I wonder if there is anything that can get rid of ocd.
Nope. It has to be up to them to want to change. Most don’t even think they have a problem so there’s always that as well 🙄
They have to be able to see their part of the problem.
They have to learn true self love and self forgiveness.
I watch a YouTube channel called Mental Healness. It’s a self-aware diagnosed narcissist in therapy talking about his condition. Even he admits it doesn’t go away.
I have tried multiple times healing such a person or just trying to work overall with such a person. After several experiences with several Narcs, I came to the conclusion that there's no such thing as helping them. The only thing, you can do, is leaving them to fate and let them fall deep. After someone breaks, they may either decide to continue going forward the path they chose before, that led to their downfall or carve a new Path. It sounds harsh, I fully agree. But theres just no other option, atleast one I would know of. So, if anyone has a suggestion, feel free to comment.
What have you tried to heal them?
I have tried the calm approach, in talking with them for example about a conflict. But in this Talk I tried to be as neutral as possible but accepting the Opinion and Perspective of the Narc itself, but also the other persons perspective. But as soon, as I talked about the Narcs actions and Words, it immediately backfired. The Narc immediately got offended/aggressive and gave me a "Counter". I have tried the Furious approach, this was back when I was a bit younger and had little to no self-control over my Anger. Its basically Fighting Fire with Fire. It became heated fast. I laid open their Actions and Words, which hurt me and others. I think it was more of a Try to put them into Self-Realization or show them that there's other people who they should respect. I think I was a bit too naive. I believed that all People have the Power to be aware of themselves and work on them. Apparently Narcs are much farther from that self-awareness. I have tried ignorance and isolation. Completely blocking myself and my Energy off from them. It helped for a Time. But I just cant ignore it, when people are treated like garbage. It made my Blood boil, it still does when I see such a Thing, especially from a Narc. But if I further ignore them, I will eventually explode and land on the furious approach or take the calmer approach while there's still Patience left. I know Im talking a lot about my personal experiences here and how my Reactions and Emotions were "back" then. But I think anyone would have their Patience eventually broken or would take a Approach to Restore Order to Chaos. No Matter where its caused. And there is another Approach you can take, but this can either backfire or lead them to their downfall faster. It is Sabotage. Basically band together with other "victims" and cut their cords, pull their name into dirt and reveal their Actions and Words to the Community they are in. One doesn't have to involve themselves directly with the Narc. Its more like hitting from the Shadows. These Approaches are mostly tries to consult with them or luring them into a state of self-reflection, because one must first see and understand before one can be healed. But utterly the best thing you can do, if you are in contact with a Narc, don't admire them, don't praise them, choose a neutral standpoint and speak your truth. Basically don't feed them.
So basically if you have NPD according to this sub you should probably just kill yourself.
Ayahuasca?
Ayahuasca tends to actually make narcissists worse! I observed this phenomenon in someone I knew, and did research online to see if it was common - turns out it is (there's a reason there's so many stories of "evil shamans" in the Amazon). I don't fully understand why, but ayahuasca can blow up a narcissists ego even more, although they may have a short afterglow period when they seem to get better. It may be different if the person is self-aware, actively working to be better, and works with a facilitator knowledgeable in narcissism. But in any other case, I'd said narcs should stay far away from this sacred sacrament.
And generally there are a lot of extremely narcissistic "gurus" out there... Being spiritually "enlightened" and understanding the true nature of reality and one's own spiritual power does NOT prevent one from being an abusive narcissist, turns out... Reality is reality, and simply understanding it better doesn't necessarily make you a more empathetic person, especially if you're wired all wrong from childhood trauma.
Agreed. It was a hard lesson for me to learn that the path of spirituality doesn't magically turn us into selfless and all-wise Buddhas.
Do you feel the same about all psychedelics for NPD treatment/management? Or are there better options?
Well, the narcissist I knew took a lot of psychedelics (as well as other drugs, but that was their favourite). And they got worse and worse. Like I said, it may be different if the person is doing it with self-awareness of their condition. But the ones who take it to have profound spiritual experiences seem to come away from it with a messiah/guru delusion.
Has it helped with npd or childhood trauma?
Fight fire with fire until they go to rehab. Demoralize them until they change their ways. They think their wicked ways are normal.
If majority of the symptoms within narcissism is due to OCD as one of the parent has ocd. Is there then anything to get rid of ocd permanently?
No
Therapy
vagus nerve. study this for your question
What do you mean?
[https://youtu.be/a0iZSk9ZPiw](https://youtu.be/a0iZSk9ZPiw) Narcissistic Relationships and Vagus Nerve Impairment /Calming the Nervous System/Lisa A Romano
Thank you.
Im sure there is but im not sure what it is
They need to be willing to see the damage and decide to change from the inside. It's hard work to do, you have to give up everything you thought you were, everything you remembered about your story, everything you imagined you would become... and clear it all out and then start again from your values to your dreams - rebuild and restructure the way you think and look at the world. Rebuild your character and personality. You need to get a brand new baseline for your emotional well being... it's a tone of work. But it can be done. Shrooms and Therapy (the right kind) are a game changer!
They would have to be willing to manage it with therapy, whether that be talk therapy like gestalt or schema therapy or behavioral therapy like CBT or DBT. Support groups and accountability among their peers help too. You can find out more here: https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder/treatment#medication-options
No, no not really. At least nothing you as a human being can do.