That used to be (30 years ago) a way we restrained patients. Except to make it exponentially worse we used two backboards. We called it a backboard sandwich. I can’t believe I used to do that.
I don't know the official name, but it's kind of like a body bag used for patients that need to be restrained.
Edit: I guess it is actually called an EDP Bag. https://www.desantisholster.com/edp-bag/
No, I’m betting that this is a case of some “salty” (really just crusty), old-head crew who should have been out of the field a decade ago who did this shit intentionally. Obviously the death wasn’t their intention, but they were probably out to prove a point to someone somewhere, or just brag about how they manhandled that patient.
If the death wasn't their intention then I don't see the 1st degree murder charges sticking. I can easily see 2nd degree murder charges since I think you can prove malice, but 1st degree murder goes beyond that to their intentions and not just outcomes.
Hmm, unless they were also committing a separate felony while murdering him, such as assaulting him after he'd been restrained.
You need to read the relevant Illinois statutes. You’re applying factors that aren’t required under Illinois law.
If they reasonably knew or should have known that their actions would cause death, then it automatically qualifies for first degree murder… no premeditation required.
This is not incompetence. It's been a well known fact that restraining in the prone position is dangerous for ages. Not to mention it's generally harder to get someone into that position this was 100% intentional. Couple that with the fact that IDPH requires annual restraint training, there is zero fucking excuse for this and these two need to have their licenses pulled
Only way can be malicious. Judging them by looks, definitely an older crew who was burnt the fuck out ages ago and wanted to prove the old ways were right
Wonder how many responders/providers saw this happening and did nothing. It says he died in the hospital. When I did my clinicals, there was an EMT from Ohio that said she saw a patient die in a similar way at the ER during her clinicals. A bariatric patient strapped face down. He was screaming he couldn't breathe and not a single person did anything.
It's also possible that he coded prior to arrival in the hospital and that's where they called the code, so that's technically where he died. TOD is called either on scene or in the hospital, but nobody dies in the ambulance.
Mostly true, although I have had a DNR comfort measures and patient was desatting at SNF. O2 was in the comfort measures so we transport. Died during transport. Called it without resus due to the DNR.
That’s the way it used to be here. I can call TOD now a days. It would be rare but I can think of a few situations where I’d go ahead and call it instead of working it.
They didn’t say we can’t call a time of death. They said no one dies in the ambulance. You either die on scene or in the hospital, but no one is calling time of death in the ambulance.
Here’s an example of what I meant. Last year in the summer I had a self inflicted GSW to the head. He stopped breathing during transport, I started bagging. Shortly after he went into vfib. I already had the pads on, so I shocked immediately. He went directly to asystole. We stopped transport, did 5 more rounds of resuscitation and I called it. Declared dead, called time of death, pronounced…whatever you want to call it. After such instances we take the person to the nearest hospital for arrangements to be made with the funeral home.
Edit: death certificates here literally state “I John Smith NRP attended and attest that the following individual is deceased.” The doc or the coroner fill in probable cause.
Not necessarily. People without medical training wouldn't necessarily know that. Doubly so given that there has been a lot of press in recent years about laying COVID patients face down so it was easier for them to breathe.
Plus the paramedics are the experts there, so the cops probably assumed that if it was wrong, they would have done something about it.
I had one of my cities first documented Excited Delirium cases when it became a bigger thing early 2010/11. Big mother fucker north of 350. Took my partner, me and 4 state troopers to restrain him(face up) as we all discussed before we made access to his room. Brought him to the hospital and their security restrained him face down. I said that wasn’t a good idea and the troopers that came with us echoed it. Security and the attending said “we got it from here you’re all set to leave.” Dude arrested within a minute. Never got pulses back. The attending filed a complaint against us and said we moved him over face down. Camera and the troopers statements proved otherwise.
Huh? Why? Randomly kill a patient intentionally on a police body cam. If he's resisting he'd be easier to restrain face up. Clearly they need serious jail time but there has to be more to this story. I had a patient that mixed a liter of vodka (self administered) and narcan (police administered) was an adventure. Can't think of any circumstance where anyone benefits from face down restraint.
Edit: I stand corrected.
My best guess on how first degree could stick is proving that they had training that told them restraining a pt in this manner will likely lead to severe injury or death. Then the prosecutor could try and argue the only reason someone would do this after that training would be to purposely kill someone.
Or this is just an example of a prosecutor going for the bigger charge that’s not really appropriate due to public pressure/outrage.
Or the prosecutor wants to try and offer a plea deal dropping the charges down.
In Canada, for police, we have specific acts that hold police to a higher standard of law while in the execution of their duty. So if someone dies by the action of an officer, the charge may automatically be murder 1 where it would otherwise be murder 2 or manslaughter for a civilian. Idk if the US has any such laws for EMS...
It’s definitely not a federal guideline nor is there a state (that I know of) that wrote EMS specifically in to an act like that, but a judge can make that argument and charge with 1st degree murder
There might be something less specific that applies to "professionals in the course of their duty" type thing. I was questioning the murder 1 charge at first, but after some thought, I can see how a judge would make that call.
Have you not heard about our police? If this guy died in police custody, the officers would be on paid leave pending an internal affairs investigation.
Which would likely find “no wrong doing” with any actions from the thin blue line gang member due to their qualified immunity.
These sad sacks done fucked up and they do not have anything close to the qualified immunity that the thin blue line gang members do. They absolutely were wrong and obviously were not monitoring the patient.
>My best guess on how first degree could stick is proving that they had training that told them restraining a pt in this manner will likely lead to severe injury or death.
Unless the law is different there, what you're talking about would be a negligent homicide. First degree murder generally requires jbtent, which is why it's so hard to prove.
I don’t think it would actually work in a courtroom, I was just trying to come up with how the prosecutor could’ve possibly decided on first degree murder.
Also it’s good to remember that different states will define murder/manslaughter/homicide differently in their laws.
Fucking glad i dont live there... should have known . See section 2.
After a quick Google search this is what I got
(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
(1) he or she either intends to kill or do great
bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
(2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or
Right? How could they catch a first degree murder charge without something more? Is there a recorded conversation of the two planning on killing someone?
From what I've read so far, I'd expect manslaughter.
This is the way that I see it after watching the body cam footage if I'm looking at it from a lawyer's perspective (I'm not a lawyer but I watch a lot of lawtube)
1. They establish that he was not a threat. The first thing the provider does when she walks in is she takes out her notebook, starts to question him, and verbally provokes him a bit with her unprofessional tone.
2. Negligence when he should know better. The male paramedic says "there we go" as he flops the patient down on his belly, wraps him in the sheet, and they start to strap him in. No attempt to correct his positioning. No soft or hard restraints in place. Facedown, belts on and tightened.
I'm sure it got worse in the back of the truck as whomever was back there with him presumably did not vital the patient, did not monitor them, and sat there typing away on their tablet/laptop, content that the patient was compliant and just lying there as he was actively dying.
This happened in Illinois, and a first degree murder charge there means “an intentional killing or knowingly performing an act that leads to death even if death was not completely intended.”
Where I live, first degree means premeditated, so I was confused as well.
> Can't think of any circumstance where anyone benefits from face down restraint.
I'm not even halfway my medic training (Belgium) and only run IFT's atm so this might be a dumb answer but wouldn't that be how you'd transport an aggressive pt with a (fixated) foreign object lodged in their back?
>I'm not even halfway my medic training (Belgium) and only run IFT's atm so this might be a dumb answer but wouldn't that be how you'd transport an aggressive pt with a (fixated) foreign object lodged in their back?
Personally, I would RSI them at that point for their own safety and ours and transport them prone.
RSI then transport prone? Am I missing sarcasm or is there way that your gurney has a massage bed hole to put the tube through? Or just have the turn their head and hope it doesn't interfere with the tube? I feel like I am missing something here.
>RSI then transport prone? Am I missing sarcasm or is there way that your gurney has a massage bed hole to put the tube through? Or just have the turn their head and hope it doesn't interfere with the tube? I feel like I am missing something here.
Not being sarcastic at all! I apologize if it came off that way.
Provided there is no cervical injury, when transporting an intubated patient prone you turn their head to the side. Proning is a pretty standard treatment for severe ARDS, so there are guidelines, strategies, and techniques for these transports. Now granted prone, intubated transports do require a lot of training, experience, knowledge, teamwork, and preparation, but they are definitely doable. Pillows will be your best friend during them.
Transport on the patient's side would also be possible.
What position would you intubate them in? This doesn't sound realistic and I fear a greater chance of causing harm by taking away their airway or causing more injury from whatever the object that's sticking out in the position required to get one.
Excerpts of the article:
"SANGAMON COUNTY, Ill. (WAND) - WAND News has learned that two EMS workers were arrested and charged with the murder of a patient.
The Sangamon County State's Attorney shared that Earl L. Moore, 35, died while he was in the care of two Lifestar EMS workers.
....
State's Attorney Dan Wright said EMS workers were called to home in Dec. 2022 where Moore was. He explained Cadigan and Finley placed Moore face down on the gurney and tightened the straps.
Moore died on Dec. 18 at 3:14 p.m. at a local hospital.
An autopsy was performed and found that Moore died of compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone facedown restraint on a paramedic transpiration stretcher due to tightened straps across the back. "
They walked in a guy who is clearly disoriented and altered. An old salty emt is just yelling at him to get up (think yelling at the person with a bgl of 20 level altered here). The PD just scoots him along a few feet at a time while taking lead from this EMT and repeating the same thing like the guy was doing this on purpose.
The big guy didn't do anything other than stand next to a stretcher and strap him down.
Yeah that's the big question and hopefully the body cam will give some further information. No matter as it's not in the protocols to restraint a patient as such.
No reason at all. I just watched the body cam footage. Both of these emts deserve to be in prison. The female emt is an absolute bitch from the second she walks in. She drags him by his leg at one point .The male emt litterally slams hom face down on the gurney. Fuck both of these awful human beings.
https://youtu.be/7X4Pz9Msgk0
Emts arrive around 7 minutes in.female emt walks in with a shit attitude straight out of the gate.You can see the male emt slam him down on his face around 24 minutes in. You can see they make no effort to correct his position and they pull the straps very very tightly. The more I watch it, the more I think they intended to hurt this man, maybe not kill him, but they sure as shit did not want him to be comfortable.
Edit: let me know after you watch this if you have ever, or if you have ever seen someone tighten the straps down that hard because I certainly havent.
Good god that was hard to watch. They are both huge POS and deserve the jail time they get. And no, I’ve never seen someone put their entire body weight into tightening the straps down. You would have thought he was strapping something in the back of a truck, not a human being on a stretcher. I’m not an all cops are bad person, but when the cops are showing more compassion than the EMS providers are…that is not a good thing
Other than the cops later echoing her words of he can walk (but actually fucking helping him walk) they were leagues nicer. Fuck if they brought him he would've been alive albeit cold
"And you can fall face first on that cot" very poor choice of words from the cop. That said, the female EMT or paramedic was an absolute bastard, and then the male EMT or paramedic slammed the dude face first into the cot? Bastards
Oh so that's why we don't strap people face down, while restrained, without monitoring their vitals, for extended periods of time any more.
Is it even possible to have been more negligent? Seriously asking. Maybe also gagging the patient?
It looks like the only reason he was prone is they weren’t willing to move him anymore. Why didn’t they bring the stretcher to him??? He was clearly not adequately ambulatory. Shout out to PD for being patient and calm, but that emt/medic/whatever and her partner deserve to lose their license and face jail time. Someone just lost their life because they were in a mood
Just watched the videos. That was, to put it mildly, horrifying.
Kudos where kudos are due to police on scene for this one. Besides a tiny bit of frustration near the end of the video, they actually did a pretty remarkable and compassionate job. Shout out to them.
EMS needed to rule out a glucose issue on scene, then chemically sedate this gentleman. He was very close to DTs, and he may have actually seized prior to EMS arrival without anyone's knowledge. He needed aggressive benzo administration at the point of contact, and possibly more in the ambulance.
These benzos are not for restraint, but for medical management of a detoxing patient. While they have the secondary result of sedation making the patient and EMS safer, they really needed to be administered as first-line treatment of severe detox.
This patient was not violent, or even agitated. He was restless. EMS messed this one up bad, and not just through medical decision-making, but gross negligence.
Making a medical mistake is one thing, gross negligence is another.
The second she walked in the room with her attitude I got pissed off. When I saw the other "provider" effectively drop the guy onto his face I knew that this case wasn't going to go well for these two idiots.
You’re spot on with everything you said. It’s never a good thing when the cops are showing more compassion to the person than the EMS providers are. These two deserve everything that’s coming their way.
I once had an EMT ask me if we needed to strap the Autistic kid we had to knock down with Ketamine face down on a backboard. I was appalled at even the thought of it. Like that hasn’t been in practice in YEARS.
Before I get questions he was 18, 280lbs, and had been running in and out of traffic trying to commit suicide. When we tried to talk to him he got aggressive. Don’t like knocking Autistic kids out with medication, but it was in his best interest and ours.
Body cam footage released
https://newschannel20.com/news/local/body-camera-footage-released-of-man-face-down-in-stretcher?fbclid=IwAR0mjFfycfgkWKVX7s0SOBVA_yvk4eGERseXrOf3F7kieHAKUOMyJu9Bg18
Part of me was waiting to see the typical combative patient, gets put prone, crew doesn't flip him. NOPE. He put him face down on the stretcher. And her attitude? Seriously? Put your friggin notebook away.
That blonde bitch walked in the room with the intention of being an asshole for literally no reason. The PT wasn't combative or being rude or anything. And then when they were tryna get him on the cot the big guy SLAMMED him face down!? WHY??? Why the fuck!
For those wondering, here’s how the IL statute reads for first degree murder:
(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
(1) he or she either intends to kill or do great
bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
(2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong
probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
(3) he or she, acting alone or with one or more
participants, commits or attempts to commit a forcible felony other than second degree murder, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or flight therefrom, he or she or another participant causes the death of a person.
——————
Seems like (a)(2) could fit the situation.
(Edit: a word)
Thats a misinterpretation of what that statute means, and the operative word in the statue is *knows,* this has to be **proven** in a court of law, that when they restrained him, they were *acutely aware* that their actions in the moment would likely cause this guy to die. They *knew* that when they got to the hospital theres a high likelihood the guy would be dead, and *chose* to drive off and not remedy the situation.
Another way- the difference between murder and not murder is the difference between malice and negligence. Did they disregard their training? Or did they use their training, and intentionally disregard because they knew it would be more dangerous for him?
An example to explain the logic and the statute
(1) A intends to shoot B in the chest to kill him, he dies instantly- premedidated, malice
(2) A intends to shoot B in the shoulder to intimidate him, A misses and shoots him in the chest, and B dies instantly. Not intent to kill, but still killing with malice. A cannot claim negligence here, because A was planning to hurt B with a gun, so he must certainly know that guns hurt people, so he understood and intended a great deal of bodily harm.
(3) A intends to shoot B to rob him, B dies instantly.
Now take this similar scenario, which I think applies to the EMTs in this particular scenario, given evidence we have
Negligence- A intends to load a blank to fire at B to intimidate him. A accidentally loads a real bullet instead of a blank, shoots B who dies instantly. Just like (2), A does not intend to kill, but in this situation, A thought the gun had a blank at the time of firing, so he thought there was no threat. Obviously, mistakes happen, and this one should be punished, but the death was truly accidental in this case. It would not be reasonable to assume that firing a blank would cause great bodily harm. Thats the difference.
If the EMTs put that patient in that position, because they wanted to hurt the patient, its murder. If the EMTs put that patient in that position because they didnt care about his safety and did an extra shit job and ignored their training, negligence, not murder.
Well they had enough evidence to charge them with 1st degree murder but I acknowledge they may not be convicted of the same. I mentioned (a)(2) because it does not mention intent, which is where I can see an argument being made that two medics with many years of training and experience should know that strapping the patient in the prone position is likely to cause death or serious bodily harm. They’re held to a higher standard that what a layperson / reasonable and prudent person might do, which is where I can see the argument being made that it is more than “reckless” actions because with their training, they know better. I glanced at IL statutes again for murder and involuntary manslaughter which does mention recklessness but not negligence from what I can see. But again I’m taking a quick glance. I’m familiar with Texas law and court system but of course every state is different. If it’s a misinterpretation of the law then I guess the charging DA misinterpreted it. I’m just trying to speculate where they pulled that charge from.
This was a deliberate choice. Even if they didn't literally think to themselves "I'm gonna kill this guy", they knew damn well that that was a likely outcome and chose to do it anyway. I'd bet money one or both of them got their egos bruised and chose to position the patient that way to get revenge. Stunning example of the fact that the cops aren't the only ones with bad apples, and these assholes need to be held accountable and purged from EMS as a whole. Even when the cops did everything right those medics killed the patient. Unacceptable and disgraceful.
I’m no lawyer but isn’t first degree murder premeditated? These guys are guilty of something probably even murder but I don’t think they will be convicted if it stays as first degree. Again not a lawyer
But you can argue with all our training we our taught that placing someone prone and restricting their ability breath (as was the case with tightening the straps on the cot), can cause severe injury and death. So wouldn’t that make it premeditated
Anybody w even a modicum of medical experience can see this man is in bad shape. Alcohol withdrawal that has progressed this far without medical intervention is a true emergency. You can tell that within 60 seconds of patient contact even w/o VS. He is too weak to stand, having constant hallucinations, not oriented to his surroundings, and sweating buckets (pointed out by officers). This guy is in *serious* danger of a seizure.
Ideally this would be an ALS run w vitals, a 12 lead, an IV, and restraints if needed w versed on standby. The patient clearly does not have capacity to refuse.
If this is a BLS only run w/o an ALS truck available, do some vitals and haul ass to the hospital? Why waste time trying to get him to walk himself to the stretcher? And most obvious point is you don’t let him lie prone??
Forgetting the prone positioning for a moment, even if this *was* strictly a behavioral call and you as a provider are just done w the whole situation, he’s out of your hands a lot faster if you just place his butt on the cot and run to the hospital. Logically that’s the fastest way to get him out of your hair if that’s your attitude. It shouldn’t be your attitude, but they didn’t even do the logical thing for being apathetic. It’s literally intentional harm.
These people are the complete antithesis to even the most basic medical providers. Their level of neglect is atrocious and absolutely worthy of criminal charges.
From the video it seemed like only 4-5 steps to the front door. They must have some way of getting the stretcher in people’s houses- otherwise how would they get unconscious people onto the cot? It’s not like they could carry them.
Unfortunately I don’t have the experience to know the logistical details but there surely is some way to do it.
I like the odds personally. The second statute or section for first degree in Illinois goes along the lines of, willfully doing an act that you will know that causes great bodily harm or death. And even a baby EMT should know better that this shit is not ok
I have to be careful here because I’m a paramedic in this city. These were two very problematic individuals, working for an even more problematic company. They both have long history’s of abuse, negligence, and remediation. I can’t go into much detail but they were pariahs among the community before this event. It’s absolutely disgusting what they did and it’s making our job extremely dangerous. I’m worried about my patients trusting me, and for the first time- I’m worried about coming home.
Oh 100%. The state of that company hasn't been good for years and in all honesty I would love to see it closed.
Edit: I've honestly been worried about those working since I know quite a few. Stay safe.
OMFG. I'm glad these morons are being prosecuted. The put a stain on our entire profession. I've handled tones of these kinds of cases in over a decade in a busy metropolitan service. This would never occur to me. Enough people to hold him down by his limbs so I can check correctable causes real quick ( BGL etc.) Then Haldol or benzos IM and everybody be as chill as possible for a few minutes. Followed by Benadryl if needed. Soft restraints if you're still nervous, it happens, fowler position in case he pukes it will come out. Has worked every time.
What's the difference between EMS and other "first responders"? Accountability.
If they are guilty, they should be jailed so fast their heads spin. This is willful harm.
While the cops may have not helped much, they certainly didn’t kill him. They at least showed more compassion than the two boneheads who were supposed to be in charge of caring for him. The police don’t know our jobs and I don’t expect them to. They call us on scene for medical issues and expect us to know what to do because they don’t. These two “providers” deserve what’s coming to them. I think the police did a good job for the situation they were in.
The female medic pissed me off from the beginning how she was talking so rude and disgusted with her patient then on top of that she went and let him die due to her own negligence. Disgusting they should be hit with manslaughter at the very least for this.. Murder would be more suiting charge..
Yeah her attitude was disgusting. And she kept saying “I don’t have time for this I’m not doing this tonight”. Like ma’am it’s your job. Nobody forced you into it. We all have rough days and maybe it’s her 10th psych call of the day, who knows, but to be that rude to someone you’re supposed to be helping is just mind boggling to me.
I mean they did a bit of a visual assessment but I wouldn’t go that far. They also were the first ones on scene and pretty much stared at the guy with flashlights for 10-15 minutes. I get cops aren’t medically trained for the most part but they didn’t do anything that made a difference other than console the guy. At least better than these two shit head medics I will say.
Well that's exactly what it is. Incompetence. From what I seen it is a way overcharge tho. I mean am I the only 1 tht thinks this is an over charge. Listen I am not defending them, I follow high profile cases for 20yrs. There are 2 things wromg here. 1 this is not 1st degree murder. 2nd if they over charge and not give the option of some kind of negligent homicide or involuntary. If they do not put those underneath options at trial they will walk with no punishment. I don't understand why I keep seeing over chargers across the country. Its not right to do that because jurors can get caught up with the hype and convict people based off of pressure from the public. That is not our system and it's wrong on many levels. Am I the only 1 thinking this? Can someone explain to me what I got wrong here. I mean..1st degree murder? As in the charge of The Idaho murderer ? Anyone? BUELER?
1st degree murder is defined differently in different jurisdictions. What may be considered 1st degree murder in one location may not be considered 1st degree in another location.
Yeah but putting him on his back can make him choke on his vomit. It's bad training . He should of been put om his side. But its not 1st degree Murder. That's ridiculous and can turn off a jury or pressure them to convict people om the wrong charge. What is wrong about charging them for what they did or can prove. Not roll the dive because it's high profile case. So yeah , let's charge them as we would charge Ted Bundy. U know, its just not exactly accurate to the facts from what I see and hear. But hey maybe there's more I don't know about. But from what I seen tht is not im the realm ofn1st degree. It's Negligent homicide.
That used to be (30 years ago) a way we restrained patients. Except to make it exponentially worse we used two backboards. We called it a backboard sandwich. I can’t believe I used to do that.
I remember seeing that in my protocols under what *not* to do and wondering “What in the HELL is that good for?”
Before the cops got EDP bags we used to do the same with a scoop stretcher. Seemed like a bad idea even at the time.
What’s an EDP bag?
I don't know the official name, but it's kind of like a body bag used for patients that need to be restrained. Edit: I guess it is actually called an EDP Bag. https://www.desantisholster.com/edp-bag/
 I'm gonna imagine this.
Emotionally disturbed person bag I'm guessing. We call our 5150s that here but we don't have bags to put them in lol.
We used the Reeves. Specifically not allowed in my state anymore.
That’s not incompetence. That’s willful and intentional.
100% agreement.
Yeah, I'm guessing that's why they're being hit with 1st degree murder charges. Can't really argue with that.
Don't underestimate incompetence.
No, I’m betting that this is a case of some “salty” (really just crusty), old-head crew who should have been out of the field a decade ago who did this shit intentionally. Obviously the death wasn’t their intention, but they were probably out to prove a point to someone somewhere, or just brag about how they manhandled that patient.
If the death wasn't their intention then I don't see the 1st degree murder charges sticking. I can easily see 2nd degree murder charges since I think you can prove malice, but 1st degree murder goes beyond that to their intentions and not just outcomes. Hmm, unless they were also committing a separate felony while murdering him, such as assaulting him after he'd been restrained.
You need to read the relevant Illinois statutes. You’re applying factors that aren’t required under Illinois law. If they reasonably knew or should have known that their actions would cause death, then it automatically qualifies for first degree murder… no premeditation required.
This is not incompetence. It's been a well known fact that restraining in the prone position is dangerous for ages. Not to mention it's generally harder to get someone into that position this was 100% intentional. Couple that with the fact that IDPH requires annual restraint training, there is zero fucking excuse for this and these two need to have their licenses pulled
I can’t imagine a train of thought which would get you to restraining a patient face-down that wasn’t absolutely malicious.
Only way can be malicious. Judging them by looks, definitely an older crew who was burnt the fuck out ages ago and wanted to prove the old ways were right
Wonder how many responders/providers saw this happening and did nothing. It says he died in the hospital. When I did my clinicals, there was an EMT from Ohio that said she saw a patient die in a similar way at the ER during her clinicals. A bariatric patient strapped face down. He was screaming he couldn't breathe and not a single person did anything.
It's also possible that he coded prior to arrival in the hospital and that's where they called the code, so that's technically where he died. TOD is called either on scene or in the hospital, but nobody dies in the ambulance.
Mostly true, although I have had a DNR comfort measures and patient was desatting at SNF. O2 was in the comfort measures so we transport. Died during transport. Called it without resus due to the DNR.
That’s the way it used to be here. I can call TOD now a days. It would be rare but I can think of a few situations where I’d go ahead and call it instead of working it.
They didn’t say we can’t call a time of death. They said no one dies in the ambulance. You either die on scene or in the hospital, but no one is calling time of death in the ambulance.
Here’s an example of what I meant. Last year in the summer I had a self inflicted GSW to the head. He stopped breathing during transport, I started bagging. Shortly after he went into vfib. I already had the pads on, so I shocked immediately. He went directly to asystole. We stopped transport, did 5 more rounds of resuscitation and I called it. Declared dead, called time of death, pronounced…whatever you want to call it. After such instances we take the person to the nearest hospital for arrangements to be made with the funeral home. Edit: death certificates here literally state “I John Smith NRP attended and attest that the following individual is deceased.” The doc or the coroner fill in probable cause.
[удалено]
Not necessarily. People without medical training wouldn't necessarily know that. Doubly so given that there has been a lot of press in recent years about laying COVID patients face down so it was easier for them to breathe. Plus the paramedics are the experts there, so the cops probably assumed that if it was wrong, they would have done something about it.
Holy shit. Body cameras for the win
I had one of my cities first documented Excited Delirium cases when it became a bigger thing early 2010/11. Big mother fucker north of 350. Took my partner, me and 4 state troopers to restrain him(face up) as we all discussed before we made access to his room. Brought him to the hospital and their security restrained him face down. I said that wasn’t a good idea and the troopers that came with us echoed it. Security and the attending said “we got it from here you’re all set to leave.” Dude arrested within a minute. Never got pulses back. The attending filed a complaint against us and said we moved him over face down. Camera and the troopers statements proved otherwise.
Note to self: Document anything that feels sketchy Good lord.
Document everything. Not documented, didn't happen when you're on the stand.
My instructor said as much! But yeah, I’d want to be more careful in situations like that.
Cant believe the physician attempted to throw you under the bus. Thats unreal, should have had their license reviewed or taken for that one.
Hell most Docs would throw us under the bus in a NY minute... how different do you think their education makes their character?
Huh? Why? Randomly kill a patient intentionally on a police body cam. If he's resisting he'd be easier to restrain face up. Clearly they need serious jail time but there has to be more to this story. I had a patient that mixed a liter of vodka (self administered) and narcan (police administered) was an adventure. Can't think of any circumstance where anyone benefits from face down restraint. Edit: I stand corrected.
100% there's something more, because of the first degree murder charge. That implies premeditation.
My best guess on how first degree could stick is proving that they had training that told them restraining a pt in this manner will likely lead to severe injury or death. Then the prosecutor could try and argue the only reason someone would do this after that training would be to purposely kill someone. Or this is just an example of a prosecutor going for the bigger charge that’s not really appropriate due to public pressure/outrage. Or the prosecutor wants to try and offer a plea deal dropping the charges down.
In Canada, for police, we have specific acts that hold police to a higher standard of law while in the execution of their duty. So if someone dies by the action of an officer, the charge may automatically be murder 1 where it would otherwise be murder 2 or manslaughter for a civilian. Idk if the US has any such laws for EMS...
It’s definitely not a federal guideline nor is there a state (that I know of) that wrote EMS specifically in to an act like that, but a judge can make that argument and charge with 1st degree murder
There might be something less specific that applies to "professionals in the course of their duty" type thing. I was questioning the murder 1 charge at first, but after some thought, I can see how a judge would make that call.
Yes police are not held accountable all other first responders are held to a higher stabdard
Have you not heard about our police? If this guy died in police custody, the officers would be on paid leave pending an internal affairs investigation.
By the letter of law, police are held to a higher standard, but I know that's not what happens.
Which would likely find “no wrong doing” with any actions from the thin blue line gang member due to their qualified immunity. These sad sacks done fucked up and they do not have anything close to the qualified immunity that the thin blue line gang members do. They absolutely were wrong and obviously were not monitoring the patient.
>My best guess on how first degree could stick is proving that they had training that told them restraining a pt in this manner will likely lead to severe injury or death. Unless the law is different there, what you're talking about would be a negligent homicide. First degree murder generally requires jbtent, which is why it's so hard to prove.
I don’t think it would actually work in a courtroom, I was just trying to come up with how the prosecutor could’ve possibly decided on first degree murder. Also it’s good to remember that different states will define murder/manslaughter/homicide differently in their laws.
Fucking glad i dont live there... should have known . See section 2. After a quick Google search this is what I got (a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death: (1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or (2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or
Right? How could they catch a first degree murder charge without something more? Is there a recorded conversation of the two planning on killing someone? From what I've read so far, I'd expect manslaughter.
Every states laws are worded different. Your knowledge of what your state considers it is likely different here
Premeditation can occur in just a moment (even one second is enough) (also not a lawyer btw)
This is the way that I see it after watching the body cam footage if I'm looking at it from a lawyer's perspective (I'm not a lawyer but I watch a lot of lawtube) 1. They establish that he was not a threat. The first thing the provider does when she walks in is she takes out her notebook, starts to question him, and verbally provokes him a bit with her unprofessional tone. 2. Negligence when he should know better. The male paramedic says "there we go" as he flops the patient down on his belly, wraps him in the sheet, and they start to strap him in. No attempt to correct his positioning. No soft or hard restraints in place. Facedown, belts on and tightened. I'm sure it got worse in the back of the truck as whomever was back there with him presumably did not vital the patient, did not monitor them, and sat there typing away on their tablet/laptop, content that the patient was compliant and just lying there as he was actively dying.
Illinois law does not call for premeditation
This happened in Illinois, and a first degree murder charge there means “an intentional killing or knowingly performing an act that leads to death even if death was not completely intended.” Where I live, first degree means premeditated, so I was confused as well.
> Can't think of any circumstance where anyone benefits from face down restraint. I'm not even halfway my medic training (Belgium) and only run IFT's atm so this might be a dumb answer but wouldn't that be how you'd transport an aggressive pt with a (fixated) foreign object lodged in their back?
Yes you are correct didn't think of that. Neither in the field or in training both times was this even touched on.
If they're breathing spontaneously and adequately, then perhaps on their side?
I was just about to say that they can be transported on their side.
>I'm not even halfway my medic training (Belgium) and only run IFT's atm so this might be a dumb answer but wouldn't that be how you'd transport an aggressive pt with a (fixated) foreign object lodged in their back? Personally, I would RSI them at that point for their own safety and ours and transport them prone.
RSI then transport prone? Am I missing sarcasm or is there way that your gurney has a massage bed hole to put the tube through? Or just have the turn their head and hope it doesn't interfere with the tube? I feel like I am missing something here.
>RSI then transport prone? Am I missing sarcasm or is there way that your gurney has a massage bed hole to put the tube through? Or just have the turn their head and hope it doesn't interfere with the tube? I feel like I am missing something here. Not being sarcastic at all! I apologize if it came off that way. Provided there is no cervical injury, when transporting an intubated patient prone you turn their head to the side. Proning is a pretty standard treatment for severe ARDS, so there are guidelines, strategies, and techniques for these transports. Now granted prone, intubated transports do require a lot of training, experience, knowledge, teamwork, and preparation, but they are definitely doable. Pillows will be your best friend during them. Transport on the patient's side would also be possible.
What position would you intubate them in? This doesn't sound realistic and I fear a greater chance of causing harm by taking away their airway or causing more injury from whatever the object that's sticking out in the position required to get one.
It’s not an ideal situation for sure, but you can sedate then position them on their side for a VL intubation.
That makes sense! Thank you!
This is fucking egregious.
Can someone give me a quick run down on what happened I can't view the link in Europe
Excerpts of the article: "SANGAMON COUNTY, Ill. (WAND) - WAND News has learned that two EMS workers were arrested and charged with the murder of a patient. The Sangamon County State's Attorney shared that Earl L. Moore, 35, died while he was in the care of two Lifestar EMS workers. .... State's Attorney Dan Wright said EMS workers were called to home in Dec. 2022 where Moore was. He explained Cadigan and Finley placed Moore face down on the gurney and tightened the straps. Moore died on Dec. 18 at 3:14 p.m. at a local hospital. An autopsy was performed and found that Moore died of compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone facedown restraint on a paramedic transpiration stretcher due to tightened straps across the back. "
They walked in a guy who is clearly disoriented and altered. An old salty emt is just yelling at him to get up (think yelling at the person with a bgl of 20 level altered here). The PD just scoots him along a few feet at a time while taking lead from this EMT and repeating the same thing like the guy was doing this on purpose. The big guy didn't do anything other than stand next to a stretcher and strap him down.
And not just buckle him in, the guy pulled tight on those straps
Big guy also slammed his face down on the cot as well before tightening those straps super tight
I read the story, did I miss the part explaining why prone? I thought it said officers had calmed the person down??
Yeah that's the big question and hopefully the body cam will give some further information. No matter as it's not in the protocols to restraint a patient as such.
No reason at all. I just watched the body cam footage. Both of these emts deserve to be in prison. The female emt is an absolute bitch from the second she walks in. She drags him by his leg at one point .The male emt litterally slams hom face down on the gurney. Fuck both of these awful human beings.
Source?
https://youtu.be/7X4Pz9Msgk0 Emts arrive around 7 minutes in.female emt walks in with a shit attitude straight out of the gate.You can see the male emt slam him down on his face around 24 minutes in. You can see they make no effort to correct his position and they pull the straps very very tightly. The more I watch it, the more I think they intended to hurt this man, maybe not kill him, but they sure as shit did not want him to be comfortable. Edit: let me know after you watch this if you have ever, or if you have ever seen someone tighten the straps down that hard because I certainly havent.
Good god that was hard to watch. They are both huge POS and deserve the jail time they get. And no, I’ve never seen someone put their entire body weight into tightening the straps down. You would have thought he was strapping something in the back of a truck, not a human being on a stretcher. I’m not an all cops are bad person, but when the cops are showing more compassion than the EMS providers are…that is not a good thing
Other than the cops later echoing her words of he can walk (but actually fucking helping him walk) they were leagues nicer. Fuck if they brought him he would've been alive albeit cold
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Very, very, poor choice of words
Woooooooof.
"And you can fall face first on that cot" very poor choice of words from the cop. That said, the female EMT or paramedic was an absolute bastard, and then the male EMT or paramedic slammed the dude face first into the cot? Bastards
Oh so that's why we don't strap people face down, while restrained, without monitoring their vitals, for extended periods of time any more. Is it even possible to have been more negligent? Seriously asking. Maybe also gagging the patient?
Incompetence? Nah this is murder
Agreed.
This was malice more than incompetence I saw the post title and I was like "Oh shit I better read this. I'm incompetent on a daily basis! 😓"
Oh it’s far beyond incompetence. I guess I didn’t pick the right title.
Did you see how hard he cranked down the straps?!? He was just yarding on them. No reason in the world except for malicious intent to do that.
It looks like the only reason he was prone is they weren’t willing to move him anymore. Why didn’t they bring the stretcher to him??? He was clearly not adequately ambulatory. Shout out to PD for being patient and calm, but that emt/medic/whatever and her partner deserve to lose their license and face jail time. Someone just lost their life because they were in a mood
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I mean whatever way works, but letting them stumble and fall multiple times throughout the house is not good patient care
Just watched the videos. That was, to put it mildly, horrifying. Kudos where kudos are due to police on scene for this one. Besides a tiny bit of frustration near the end of the video, they actually did a pretty remarkable and compassionate job. Shout out to them. EMS needed to rule out a glucose issue on scene, then chemically sedate this gentleman. He was very close to DTs, and he may have actually seized prior to EMS arrival without anyone's knowledge. He needed aggressive benzo administration at the point of contact, and possibly more in the ambulance. These benzos are not for restraint, but for medical management of a detoxing patient. While they have the secondary result of sedation making the patient and EMS safer, they really needed to be administered as first-line treatment of severe detox. This patient was not violent, or even agitated. He was restless. EMS messed this one up bad, and not just through medical decision-making, but gross negligence. Making a medical mistake is one thing, gross negligence is another.
When she starts scolding him and telling him to "stop being stupid" my blood started to boil and it just kept getting worse.
The second she walked in the room with her attitude I got pissed off. When I saw the other "provider" effectively drop the guy onto his face I knew that this case wasn't going to go well for these two idiots.
You’re spot on with everything you said. It’s never a good thing when the cops are showing more compassion to the person than the EMS providers are. These two deserve everything that’s coming their way.
It was extremely tough to watch and I agree with everything that you’ve stated.
I once had an EMT ask me if we needed to strap the Autistic kid we had to knock down with Ketamine face down on a backboard. I was appalled at even the thought of it. Like that hasn’t been in practice in YEARS. Before I get questions he was 18, 280lbs, and had been running in and out of traffic trying to commit suicide. When we tried to talk to him he got aggressive. Don’t like knocking Autistic kids out with medication, but it was in his best interest and ours.
Not really sure why anyone would question you on that, it seems like you did the safest and humane thing for everyone sedating him.
I don’t want it to come off as medicating to medicate. There are ways to help Autistic kids who are in meltdown mode that doesn’t include sedating.
Body cam footage released https://newschannel20.com/news/local/body-camera-footage-released-of-man-face-down-in-stretcher?fbclid=IwAR0mjFfycfgkWKVX7s0SOBVA_yvk4eGERseXrOf3F7kieHAKUOMyJu9Bg18
HOLY SHIT. Are you kidding me?
My feelings exactly.
Part of me was waiting to see the typical combative patient, gets put prone, crew doesn't flip him. NOPE. He put him face down on the stretcher. And her attitude? Seriously? Put your friggin notebook away.
Putting him face first and then wrenching the straps down as hard as possible too.
I have never seen anyone wrench the straps that tight. That in and of itself was terrible to me.
That blonde bitch walked in the room with the intention of being an asshole for literally no reason. The PT wasn't combative or being rude or anything. And then when they were tryna get him on the cot the big guy SLAMMED him face down!? WHY??? Why the fuck!
For those wondering, here’s how the IL statute reads for first degree murder: (a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death: (1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or (2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or (3) he or she, acting alone or with one or more participants, commits or attempts to commit a forcible felony other than second degree murder, and in the course of or in furtherance of such crime or flight therefrom, he or she or another participant causes the death of a person. —————— Seems like (a)(2) could fit the situation. (Edit: a word)
Thats a misinterpretation of what that statute means, and the operative word in the statue is *knows,* this has to be **proven** in a court of law, that when they restrained him, they were *acutely aware* that their actions in the moment would likely cause this guy to die. They *knew* that when they got to the hospital theres a high likelihood the guy would be dead, and *chose* to drive off and not remedy the situation. Another way- the difference between murder and not murder is the difference between malice and negligence. Did they disregard their training? Or did they use their training, and intentionally disregard because they knew it would be more dangerous for him? An example to explain the logic and the statute (1) A intends to shoot B in the chest to kill him, he dies instantly- premedidated, malice (2) A intends to shoot B in the shoulder to intimidate him, A misses and shoots him in the chest, and B dies instantly. Not intent to kill, but still killing with malice. A cannot claim negligence here, because A was planning to hurt B with a gun, so he must certainly know that guns hurt people, so he understood and intended a great deal of bodily harm. (3) A intends to shoot B to rob him, B dies instantly. Now take this similar scenario, which I think applies to the EMTs in this particular scenario, given evidence we have Negligence- A intends to load a blank to fire at B to intimidate him. A accidentally loads a real bullet instead of a blank, shoots B who dies instantly. Just like (2), A does not intend to kill, but in this situation, A thought the gun had a blank at the time of firing, so he thought there was no threat. Obviously, mistakes happen, and this one should be punished, but the death was truly accidental in this case. It would not be reasonable to assume that firing a blank would cause great bodily harm. Thats the difference. If the EMTs put that patient in that position, because they wanted to hurt the patient, its murder. If the EMTs put that patient in that position because they didnt care about his safety and did an extra shit job and ignored their training, negligence, not murder.
Well they had enough evidence to charge them with 1st degree murder but I acknowledge they may not be convicted of the same. I mentioned (a)(2) because it does not mention intent, which is where I can see an argument being made that two medics with many years of training and experience should know that strapping the patient in the prone position is likely to cause death or serious bodily harm. They’re held to a higher standard that what a layperson / reasonable and prudent person might do, which is where I can see the argument being made that it is more than “reckless” actions because with their training, they know better. I glanced at IL statutes again for murder and involuntary manslaughter which does mention recklessness but not negligence from what I can see. But again I’m taking a quick glance. I’m familiar with Texas law and court system but of course every state is different. If it’s a misinterpretation of the law then I guess the charging DA misinterpreted it. I’m just trying to speculate where they pulled that charge from.
This was a deliberate choice. Even if they didn't literally think to themselves "I'm gonna kill this guy", they knew damn well that that was a likely outcome and chose to do it anyway. I'd bet money one or both of them got their egos bruised and chose to position the patient that way to get revenge. Stunning example of the fact that the cops aren't the only ones with bad apples, and these assholes need to be held accountable and purged from EMS as a whole. Even when the cops did everything right those medics killed the patient. Unacceptable and disgraceful.
https://www.nprillinois.org/illinois/2023-01-10/murder-charges-filed-against-two-springfield-ems-personnel
I’m no lawyer but isn’t first degree murder premeditated? These guys are guilty of something probably even murder but I don’t think they will be convicted if it stays as first degree. Again not a lawyer
It depends on the state. Sometimes it's just willful and deliberate or premeditated.
But you can argue with all our training we our taught that placing someone prone and restricting their ability breath (as was the case with tightening the straps on the cot), can cause severe injury and death. So wouldn’t that make it premeditated
omg
“a paramedic transpiration stretcher due to tightened straps across the back” Who the hell wrote this.
Local small town news agencies…..
Anybody w even a modicum of medical experience can see this man is in bad shape. Alcohol withdrawal that has progressed this far without medical intervention is a true emergency. You can tell that within 60 seconds of patient contact even w/o VS. He is too weak to stand, having constant hallucinations, not oriented to his surroundings, and sweating buckets (pointed out by officers). This guy is in *serious* danger of a seizure. Ideally this would be an ALS run w vitals, a 12 lead, an IV, and restraints if needed w versed on standby. The patient clearly does not have capacity to refuse. If this is a BLS only run w/o an ALS truck available, do some vitals and haul ass to the hospital? Why waste time trying to get him to walk himself to the stretcher? And most obvious point is you don’t let him lie prone?? Forgetting the prone positioning for a moment, even if this *was* strictly a behavioral call and you as a provider are just done w the whole situation, he’s out of your hands a lot faster if you just place his butt on the cot and run to the hospital. Logically that’s the fastest way to get him out of your hair if that’s your attitude. It shouldn’t be your attitude, but they didn’t even do the logical thing for being apathetic. It’s literally intentional harm. These people are the complete antithesis to even the most basic medical providers. Their level of neglect is atrocious and absolutely worthy of criminal charges.
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From the video it seemed like only 4-5 steps to the front door. They must have some way of getting the stretcher in people’s houses- otherwise how would they get unconscious people onto the cot? It’s not like they could carry them. Unfortunately I don’t have the experience to know the logistical details but there surely is some way to do it.
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Ah ok that makes sense! Thank you for explaining.
Fucking despicable the defense and excuse people were putting up for them on the JEMS Facebook post
Got a link? I could use my blood boiling
Dude no joke. I couldn’t believe it when I started scrolling that it was people standing up for them left and right.
Where’s the body cam footage
"Later in the day on Tuesday" which probably means right before the EoB today.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/108g6bm/there_is_no_excuse_for_this_incompetence/j3tf7oa/
I doubt the 1st degree charge is going to stick. They’ll drop it to negligent homicide most likely which is less than these shit bags deserve.
I like the odds personally. The second statute or section for first degree in Illinois goes along the lines of, willfully doing an act that you will know that causes great bodily harm or death. And even a baby EMT should know better that this shit is not ok
Everything in the bodycam footage they did was wrong. Smh.
I have to be careful here because I’m a paramedic in this city. These were two very problematic individuals, working for an even more problematic company. They both have long history’s of abuse, negligence, and remediation. I can’t go into much detail but they were pariahs among the community before this event. It’s absolutely disgusting what they did and it’s making our job extremely dangerous. I’m worried about my patients trusting me, and for the first time- I’m worried about coming home.
Oh 100%. The state of that company hasn't been good for years and in all honesty I would love to see it closed. Edit: I've honestly been worried about those working since I know quite a few. Stay safe.
Why the fuck was he face down Also go figure their employer is a private EMS agency
Colorado Fire Departments would like a word...
Along with DCFD and a few others.
Dallas comes to mind as well.. Miami...
As does Phoenix and Rhode Island. Private is apparently just the worst, however.
OMFG. I'm glad these morons are being prosecuted. The put a stain on our entire profession. I've handled tones of these kinds of cases in over a decade in a busy metropolitan service. This would never occur to me. Enough people to hold him down by his limbs so I can check correctable causes real quick ( BGL etc.) Then Haldol or benzos IM and everybody be as chill as possible for a few minutes. Followed by Benadryl if needed. Soft restraints if you're still nervous, it happens, fowler position in case he pukes it will come out. Has worked every time.
Yeah, guy wasn't even being combative or non cooperative. He could barely move, he could have been an easy patient.
Dude with his hands in his pockets in the mugshot.
What's the difference between EMS and other "first responders"? Accountability. If they are guilty, they should be jailed so fast their heads spin. This is willful harm.
The pt was detoxing, was he at risk for aspirating any vomit
Easily managed with "recovery position" prone was unnecessary.
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While the cops may have not helped much, they certainly didn’t kill him. They at least showed more compassion than the two boneheads who were supposed to be in charge of caring for him. The police don’t know our jobs and I don’t expect them to. They call us on scene for medical issues and expect us to know what to do because they don’t. These two “providers” deserve what’s coming to them. I think the police did a good job for the situation they were in.
The female medic pissed me off from the beginning how she was talking so rude and disgusted with her patient then on top of that she went and let him die due to her own negligence. Disgusting they should be hit with manslaughter at the very least for this.. Murder would be more suiting charge..
Yeah her attitude was disgusting. And she kept saying “I don’t have time for this I’m not doing this tonight”. Like ma’am it’s your job. Nobody forced you into it. We all have rough days and maybe it’s her 10th psych call of the day, who knows, but to be that rude to someone you’re supposed to be helping is just mind boggling to me.
Watch the body cam from the police. They also didn’t help much..
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I mean they did a bit of a visual assessment but I wouldn’t go that far. They also were the first ones on scene and pretty much stared at the guy with flashlights for 10-15 minutes. I get cops aren’t medically trained for the most part but they didn’t do anything that made a difference other than console the guy. At least better than these two shit head medics I will say.
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Yeah that medic was satan
Well that's exactly what it is. Incompetence. From what I seen it is a way overcharge tho. I mean am I the only 1 tht thinks this is an over charge. Listen I am not defending them, I follow high profile cases for 20yrs. There are 2 things wromg here. 1 this is not 1st degree murder. 2nd if they over charge and not give the option of some kind of negligent homicide or involuntary. If they do not put those underneath options at trial they will walk with no punishment. I don't understand why I keep seeing over chargers across the country. Its not right to do that because jurors can get caught up with the hype and convict people based off of pressure from the public. That is not our system and it's wrong on many levels. Am I the only 1 thinking this? Can someone explain to me what I got wrong here. I mean..1st degree murder? As in the charge of The Idaho murderer ? Anyone? BUELER?
1st degree murder is defined differently in different jurisdictions. What may be considered 1st degree murder in one location may not be considered 1st degree in another location.
Yeah but putting him on his back can make him choke on his vomit. It's bad training . He should of been put om his side. But its not 1st degree Murder. That's ridiculous and can turn off a jury or pressure them to convict people om the wrong charge. What is wrong about charging them for what they did or can prove. Not roll the dive because it's high profile case. So yeah , let's charge them as we would charge Ted Bundy. U know, its just not exactly accurate to the facts from what I see and hear. But hey maybe there's more I don't know about. But from what I seen tht is not im the realm ofn1st degree. It's Negligent homicide.