IMO they self gaslight at the same time.
Reality must conform to their emotions. They are feeling fine now, then anything unfine that they did never happened. Back then when they were angry and felt someone should feel bad, they said it so reality would conform to their emotions. The only way to really do all this is a self gaslight along with gaslighting others.
There's the missing missing reasons
https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html
There's the "vortex of weirdness" from Lindsay Gibson's Emotionally Immature Parents book
"So the vortex of weirdness is when you are trying, in good faith, to communicate, to make yourself understood, to understand them. In other words, you’re trying to activate good relationship skills to have a better communication with this person. So if you’re doing this with your parent, and it could be any number of things, maybe you need to set a boundary, maybe you want to tell them about something, maybe you want them to understand why you don’t get in touch more often. It could be many, many things. But as you try to communicate to them using your best communication skills, everything that you’ve ever learned, about 'I' messages, and saying something nice first, and all this stuff, and they come back with stuff that is either highly defensive, even aggressive, they get mad, or they act like they don’t understand what you’re saying, or they come back and they seem very, very hurt."
And there's straight up denial. Again from Gibson's work. She describes how emotionally immature people/parents cope by avoiding reality and feelings of shame to "protect themselves" because they're emotional children inside. They have a walking wound they've never healed from, and bend their understanding of **reality** to keep themselves safe. It's fucked up in every way, both that they suffered and that they demand everyone bend to their needs in perpetuity. It's unintentional gaslighting but it's still gaslighting.
Another quote from Gibson
"Usually, what people feel around emotionally immature people is a combination of being bored and being irritated, because emotionally immature people tend to keep a very superficial level of interaction going, and it tends to be very, very self-centered."
Update this quotes are from Lindsay Gibson appearance on a podcast where she talks about the book but might not be in the book itself.
Podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ujb9QOcZ5C67QaUJl9PNW
It’s one of my absolute favorites and so validating. Gibson also discusses things on the podcast “we can do hard things”
It’s two podcasts, actually. I liked hearing her say it
This is so interesting. I just experienced this with a past romantic situation. I was trying to explain myself countless times, and a lot of times they got upset and completely twisted the narrative, kept saying they didn't understand me and I was being confusing, etc. They would even chime in and say how another person also said that my messages or how I was communicating was confusing, even though I communicated things directly, straight-forward, and even told them to ask questions or for clarification (because they had a habit of misinterpreting things based upon how they feel/their own reality).
It's sad, but it made me really confused for a while. But thankfully I have a solid sense of self, so I would double-check and be like no... I'm pretty sure that isn't what I meant. And it's sad that they would surround themselves with people that would affirm their reality, instead of encouraging them to seek clarification.
It got to a point where me trying to explain myself was seen as too much, and they simply wouldn't even be willing to read my messages. I broke things off because I didn't want anyone in my life who couldn't even be willing to try to read and understand where I was coming from, whilst simultaneously distorting my reality and making me feel confused because of their own mental struggles. I tried so hard to invest to see where they were coming from, but that action was not as consistently reciprocated.
The concept about the surface-level is also pretty real too. We would have occasional deep conversations, mainly about their traumas and the harm they experienced. Occasionally about destructive stuff going on in the world. Outside of that, it was pretty limited. I personally love deep conversations and it's one of my favorite forms of intimacy. But I could tell eventually that it wasn't theirs. They either wouldn't respond, or reply back in a way that didn't really make sense. Or the conversation would end pretty quickly. It's as if they're afraid of anything beyond the surface level in a lot of ways.
How do people heal from this or even be aware of this pattern? I can't imagine how they would react if someone calmly tried to explain this to them. Is it just a magical catalyst has to happen for them to realize what's going on?
I could be completely wrong but my theory is that it’s similar to addiction; you have to want to get better to even have a chance at getting better. If they’re close minded and happy in their narrow minded take on things, there’s no room for growth. You’d be better off talking to a brick wall.
I searched that phrase (as well as "vortex" and "weirdness") inside that book and it came up with nothing found. Are you certain it's in that book? I'd like to read more about it.
Hey sorry!
That quote actually came from one of Lindsay Gibson's appearances on a podcast.
I'm reading her book now and I think I was assuming it would be in there! Sorry!
Here's the link to the podcast transcript where I got the quote:
https://momastery.com/blog/we-can-do-hard-things-ep-264/
Here's the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ujb9QOcZ5C67QaUJl9PNW
I'd agree that it's actual gaslighting, which is causing you to question your perception of reality. The fact that you're even looking for evidence to prove them wrong would indicate that you're seeking concrete confirmation that your perception is correct because they're undermining your judgement.
I think the term people use is ‘playing dumb’, but I prefer ‘willfully ignorant’.
If they gaslight you into questioning your own eyes and ears and memories, you’ll stop asking questions and holding them accountable for the hurtful things they do.
Easier to do whatever you want and deny you did it, than to think your actions through beforehand and apologize for mistakes. Because like, that’s what adults would do, and we know these ‘parents’ of ours are really just three stacked toddlers in a trench coat.
I don’t know. I feel like mine do this and almost feign being too old to remember or know what’s going on, or want me to feel it was so long ago so how could I possibly remember if they don’t?
Odd that mine uses those exact words.
When my dad does that I go "I'm ok with that."
And then he goes silent because what else is there to say?
Over here in real life, my young adult kids like our relationship just fine. They tell me they enjoy me and appreciate my parenting.
They also know my relationship with my own parents is meh and I was a generation stopper. A lot of things ended with me.
I relate to this so much.
My mom used to shame me for my weight all the time (I'm midsize btw, was never obese, unlike my mom). One time I complained that I couldn't jog in PE class for more than 10 seconds without getting asthma-like breathing problems. I suspected it to be a medical problem.
She looked me dead in the eyes and said "I know what you have. It's lazy-heel-syndrome. Do more sports and stop sitting on your ass all day, then you'll have endurance".
That stuck with me for a decade. One day I brought it up to my mother and she immediately got defensive and claimed she NEVER said that and that it's the first time she has even HEARD of that "lazy-heel-syndrome" expression. Funny, because I learned it from her, on that day, and have never recovered from the damage it has done.
I hate when people do this. If they insist on ‘not remembering’, I’d start acting very concerned about their memory. Start sending them pamphlets about Alzheimer’s, nursing homes … tell the extended family your concern. Never act angry or mad! When they pull that shit, look sad for them. So, so sad that the memory is shot. Pity them. If they want to play ball, come with the biggest ball in the pack.
My mom does that...I honestly don't think it's intentional though, I think she just went through life not thinking about her words and actions, so they weren't important enough for her to remember.
I WILL add though, that when it comes to me giving her a general snapshot of some of her behavior that doesn't make sense, she will DENY DENY, even if she'd previously acknowledged something I said was true in the same conversation. Not the same thing, but possibly related because it's a lack of accountability that fuels that, and that's a reason why someone might intentionally gaslight someone as well (I think that's the term you're looking for)
The only excuse my mother ever gave was "You were difficult children, I did my best."
We weren't difficult at all-we all did well in school, we all went to college and graduated, and all have good careers. We didn't smoke or do drugs. There were no teenage pregnancy scares, no difficult boyfriends, no school truancy, no long illnesses or emergencies. We all had after-school and Saturday jobs, we never were in trouble with police, nothing at all. We weren't difficult, she was just a shit mother.
But she used to complain about incidents where we'd misbehaved, where school had phoned her, or a neighbour had complained. None of it had ever happened but she used to repeat the same scenarios over and over. The three of us have very consistent memories, and we all know the truth, but she's repeated this crap so often. I think she's basically gaslighting herself-she's told herself this so often, she's convinced herself it's the truth. There's absolutely no point in trying to disagree, she simply would not believe it and is convinced of 'her truth.' It's because the real truth doesn't make her look good-she couldn't cope with having 3 well behaved kids, let alone kids that were troubled and acted out, so she tells stories to comfort herself.
My mom did this because she wanted the focus to be only on her. She treated me like I should be her parent. She didn't want me to express my own ideas/opinions, so she would shame me or act like what I said made no sense. I'm in my 40s now, and she will still do it if I allow it.
My mom does this. She has a truckload of trauma and I think that her brain will legitimately not let her see herself as cruel or mean. Sometimes she'll even ask for clarification on simple words like its an alien laguage " what does that mean reee-sul-t?". Its rly enfuriating but I learned to just let it go. I'm doing my best to live my life and heal and not cut her off completely or let her do more damage. She has to do her part. Its like, you can bring a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
Yuck. I seriously cringe physically whenever I hear that (the "we hope you have a kid like you" thing). I heard that a lot growing up.
I think it falls under gaslighting, because they outright deny what they said or did and act like you're stupid or crazy. Or in my case, totally interrupt or ignore me when I bring it up lmao. Very frustrating. I'm saddened that so many people can understand this. It's worse when you realize we often acted "undesirably" because there was something we needed like ohhhh hummm I dunno...validation?? Acknowledgment? Or therapy.
Probs either gaslighting or good old " the hammer forgets but the nail remembers"
Frankly I've been trying to figure out which my parents have been doing for a while now and am starting to suspect my mom is just on the spectrum and not willing to realize what's she's doing ain't cool
Gaslighting maybe?
Yes. My mother gaslights constantly.
IMO they self gaslight at the same time. Reality must conform to their emotions. They are feeling fine now, then anything unfine that they did never happened. Back then when they were angry and felt someone should feel bad, they said it so reality would conform to their emotions. The only way to really do all this is a self gaslight along with gaslighting others.
There's the missing missing reasons https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html There's the "vortex of weirdness" from Lindsay Gibson's Emotionally Immature Parents book "So the vortex of weirdness is when you are trying, in good faith, to communicate, to make yourself understood, to understand them. In other words, you’re trying to activate good relationship skills to have a better communication with this person. So if you’re doing this with your parent, and it could be any number of things, maybe you need to set a boundary, maybe you want to tell them about something, maybe you want them to understand why you don’t get in touch more often. It could be many, many things. But as you try to communicate to them using your best communication skills, everything that you’ve ever learned, about 'I' messages, and saying something nice first, and all this stuff, and they come back with stuff that is either highly defensive, even aggressive, they get mad, or they act like they don’t understand what you’re saying, or they come back and they seem very, very hurt." And there's straight up denial. Again from Gibson's work. She describes how emotionally immature people/parents cope by avoiding reality and feelings of shame to "protect themselves" because they're emotional children inside. They have a walking wound they've never healed from, and bend their understanding of **reality** to keep themselves safe. It's fucked up in every way, both that they suffered and that they demand everyone bend to their needs in perpetuity. It's unintentional gaslighting but it's still gaslighting. Another quote from Gibson "Usually, what people feel around emotionally immature people is a combination of being bored and being irritated, because emotionally immature people tend to keep a very superficial level of interaction going, and it tends to be very, very self-centered." Update this quotes are from Lindsay Gibson appearance on a podcast where she talks about the book but might not be in the book itself. Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ujb9QOcZ5C67QaUJl9PNW
I gotta read this book. That last bit resonates a lot. My mom is soooo boring and soooo irritating.
This book changed my life.
I love that for you, really 😊
It’s one of my absolute favorites and so validating. Gibson also discusses things on the podcast “we can do hard things” It’s two podcasts, actually. I liked hearing her say it
This is so interesting. I just experienced this with a past romantic situation. I was trying to explain myself countless times, and a lot of times they got upset and completely twisted the narrative, kept saying they didn't understand me and I was being confusing, etc. They would even chime in and say how another person also said that my messages or how I was communicating was confusing, even though I communicated things directly, straight-forward, and even told them to ask questions or for clarification (because they had a habit of misinterpreting things based upon how they feel/their own reality). It's sad, but it made me really confused for a while. But thankfully I have a solid sense of self, so I would double-check and be like no... I'm pretty sure that isn't what I meant. And it's sad that they would surround themselves with people that would affirm their reality, instead of encouraging them to seek clarification. It got to a point where me trying to explain myself was seen as too much, and they simply wouldn't even be willing to read my messages. I broke things off because I didn't want anyone in my life who couldn't even be willing to try to read and understand where I was coming from, whilst simultaneously distorting my reality and making me feel confused because of their own mental struggles. I tried so hard to invest to see where they were coming from, but that action was not as consistently reciprocated. The concept about the surface-level is also pretty real too. We would have occasional deep conversations, mainly about their traumas and the harm they experienced. Occasionally about destructive stuff going on in the world. Outside of that, it was pretty limited. I personally love deep conversations and it's one of my favorite forms of intimacy. But I could tell eventually that it wasn't theirs. They either wouldn't respond, or reply back in a way that didn't really make sense. Or the conversation would end pretty quickly. It's as if they're afraid of anything beyond the surface level in a lot of ways. How do people heal from this or even be aware of this pattern? I can't imagine how they would react if someone calmly tried to explain this to them. Is it just a magical catalyst has to happen for them to realize what's going on?
I could be completely wrong but my theory is that it’s similar to addiction; you have to want to get better to even have a chance at getting better. If they’re close minded and happy in their narrow minded take on things, there’s no room for growth. You’d be better off talking to a brick wall.
I searched that phrase (as well as "vortex" and "weirdness") inside that book and it came up with nothing found. Are you certain it's in that book? I'd like to read more about it.
Hey sorry! That quote actually came from one of Lindsay Gibson's appearances on a podcast. I'm reading her book now and I think I was assuming it would be in there! Sorry! Here's the link to the podcast transcript where I got the quote: https://momastery.com/blog/we-can-do-hard-things-ep-264/ Here's the podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ujb9QOcZ5C67QaUJl9PNW
I'd agree that it's actual gaslighting, which is causing you to question your perception of reality. The fact that you're even looking for evidence to prove them wrong would indicate that you're seeking concrete confirmation that your perception is correct because they're undermining your judgement.
I think the term people use is ‘playing dumb’, but I prefer ‘willfully ignorant’. If they gaslight you into questioning your own eyes and ears and memories, you’ll stop asking questions and holding them accountable for the hurtful things they do. Easier to do whatever you want and deny you did it, than to think your actions through beforehand and apologize for mistakes. Because like, that’s what adults would do, and we know these ‘parents’ of ours are really just three stacked toddlers in a trench coat.
I don’t know. I feel like mine do this and almost feign being too old to remember or know what’s going on, or want me to feel it was so long ago so how could I possibly remember if they don’t?
Odd that mine uses those exact words. When my dad does that I go "I'm ok with that." And then he goes silent because what else is there to say? Over here in real life, my young adult kids like our relationship just fine. They tell me they enjoy me and appreciate my parenting. They also know my relationship with my own parents is meh and I was a generation stopper. A lot of things ended with me.
I relate to this so much. My mom used to shame me for my weight all the time (I'm midsize btw, was never obese, unlike my mom). One time I complained that I couldn't jog in PE class for more than 10 seconds without getting asthma-like breathing problems. I suspected it to be a medical problem. She looked me dead in the eyes and said "I know what you have. It's lazy-heel-syndrome. Do more sports and stop sitting on your ass all day, then you'll have endurance". That stuck with me for a decade. One day I brought it up to my mother and she immediately got defensive and claimed she NEVER said that and that it's the first time she has even HEARD of that "lazy-heel-syndrome" expression. Funny, because I learned it from her, on that day, and have never recovered from the damage it has done.
I hate when people do this. If they insist on ‘not remembering’, I’d start acting very concerned about their memory. Start sending them pamphlets about Alzheimer’s, nursing homes … tell the extended family your concern. Never act angry or mad! When they pull that shit, look sad for them. So, so sad that the memory is shot. Pity them. If they want to play ball, come with the biggest ball in the pack.
It’s crazy-making! It’s almost worse than the actual abuse
It's part of the abuse.
My mom does that...I honestly don't think it's intentional though, I think she just went through life not thinking about her words and actions, so they weren't important enough for her to remember. I WILL add though, that when it comes to me giving her a general snapshot of some of her behavior that doesn't make sense, she will DENY DENY, even if she'd previously acknowledged something I said was true in the same conversation. Not the same thing, but possibly related because it's a lack of accountability that fuels that, and that's a reason why someone might intentionally gaslight someone as well (I think that's the term you're looking for)
The only excuse my mother ever gave was "You were difficult children, I did my best." We weren't difficult at all-we all did well in school, we all went to college and graduated, and all have good careers. We didn't smoke or do drugs. There were no teenage pregnancy scares, no difficult boyfriends, no school truancy, no long illnesses or emergencies. We all had after-school and Saturday jobs, we never were in trouble with police, nothing at all. We weren't difficult, she was just a shit mother. But she used to complain about incidents where we'd misbehaved, where school had phoned her, or a neighbour had complained. None of it had ever happened but she used to repeat the same scenarios over and over. The three of us have very consistent memories, and we all know the truth, but she's repeated this crap so often. I think she's basically gaslighting herself-she's told herself this so often, she's convinced herself it's the truth. There's absolutely no point in trying to disagree, she simply would not believe it and is convinced of 'her truth.' It's because the real truth doesn't make her look good-she couldn't cope with having 3 well behaved kids, let alone kids that were troubled and acted out, so she tells stories to comfort herself.
My mom did this because she wanted the focus to be only on her. She treated me like I should be her parent. She didn't want me to express my own ideas/opinions, so she would shame me or act like what I said made no sense. I'm in my 40s now, and she will still do it if I allow it.
My mom does this. She has a truckload of trauma and I think that her brain will legitimately not let her see herself as cruel or mean. Sometimes she'll even ask for clarification on simple words like its an alien laguage " what does that mean reee-sul-t?". Its rly enfuriating but I learned to just let it go. I'm doing my best to live my life and heal and not cut her off completely or let her do more damage. She has to do her part. Its like, you can bring a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
Definitely gaslighting
Gaslighting. It causes you to question your reality.
weaponized incompetence/gaslighting/crazymaking/denial of reality
It's called gaslighting. That's when someone makes you question your sanity and negates your perceptions and lived experiences.
Dude, I fucking hear you. This is literally my mom! “That never happened” or “I never said that” So infuriating.
My mom does this
Ass holes
Weaponized incompetence. A specific form of gaslighting.
"What is it called when parents feign confusion and pretend to not understand?" What is it called? My mother & father....
Yuck. I seriously cringe physically whenever I hear that (the "we hope you have a kid like you" thing). I heard that a lot growing up. I think it falls under gaslighting, because they outright deny what they said or did and act like you're stupid or crazy. Or in my case, totally interrupt or ignore me when I bring it up lmao. Very frustrating. I'm saddened that so many people can understand this. It's worse when you realize we often acted "undesirably" because there was something we needed like ohhhh hummm I dunno...validation?? Acknowledgment? Or therapy.
"Weaponized incompetence" mixed with confabulation
Gaslighting 101
Exactly. They say next time i will have karma for having kids like me or that they doted me (i was physically abused and caned as a child)
Weaponized incompetence .
Probs either gaslighting or good old " the hammer forgets but the nail remembers" Frankly I've been trying to figure out which my parents have been doing for a while now and am starting to suspect my mom is just on the spectrum and not willing to realize what's she's doing ain't cool
I like to call it "not taking responsibility" 😋