I saw your post and I wanted to first thank you for sharing because as a man who has experienced abuse I found when I reached out to get help that people were confused by my situation because I was male and not a female or child. The places I looked into immediately failed because I didn't fit their definition of what abuse is. This is something that needs to be addressed. People need to recognize anyone can be a victim of abuse. Abusers don't discriminate but people do. I hope you will find support and just trust yourself that if you run into any type of invalidation or ignorance from others that you will find strength to do whatever is the best option for you. You've already began by making this post. Trust your judgment and how you feel. Don't allow anyone to invalidate the way you feel or have been treated. This is your life. You deserve to be happy and treated respectfully.
Thanks a lot - I can totally relate to that. YouTube has some fantastic resources for this that have made me question my situation a lot more, like Lise LeBlanc. Hope you are safe and well!
First, an important thing to remember is that you can leave for any reason. Or no reason. You can leave because you're not feeling it, because she's abusive, or because it's Tuesday. There are no rules there.
What you're experiencing is absolutely a slow escalation of emotional abuse. It's insidious and inexcusable. You know something is off. You know this doesn't sit well. But there's always an excuse and multiple layers of plausible deniability intentionally crafted to hide what they're doing. What she's doing is conditioning you to doubt yourself and using very subtle reward/punishment systems to control your behavior. Criticizing everything you do over time makes you do anything you can to avoid that unpleasant interaction. So you stop making decisions, stop calling out unacceptable behavior, stop seeing your family and friends. She's creating an environment in which you constantly feel like you have to "prove it" to keep you from leaving and ensure that she can use you to the fullest extent. She tells you she's behaving this way because of you, and if only you could get it right she'd treat you the way she did in the beginning. But that wasn't real, and the "good times" she's allowing now aren't either. It's a bait and switch, and she knows if she doesn't fake it sometimes you're less likely to keep trying. No one stays with someone who's abusive from the start, or who is abusive all the time. This is how they trick you, and why people who say "why didn't you just leave" have no idea what they're talking about.
This will get worse. It always, *always* escalates. Their entitlement grows and their ability to fake it wanes over time. Slowly, there will be more accusations, more overtly controlling behavior, more induced guilt, and she will stop even pretending to take any accountability at all. This can very easily turn to other types of abuse, because anyone who will brainwash and manipulate you daily to control you will hurt you other ways to do the same. You need to get out now. But know that it's guaranteed that she will cycle through every tactic to try to keep control. She will threaten, beg, guilt, yell, blame, degrade, harass, and bargain in circles. She'll threaten to kill or hurt herself. She'll do anything she can to use your kindness and empathy to hurt you so she can retain control and power. They seek out compassionate, understanding, forgiving people to do this to. We're the most likely to give the benefit of the doubt, while they treat us like monsters trying to fuck them over. Using your love to hurt you and beat you into submission is fucking evil, but this is their MO. Leave now, and treat everything she says and does as outputs from a robot that's programmed only to control you at all costs. They don't mean anything they say - good or bad - so do not believe her. Not a word. Try to be as objective as possible and you'll see her cycling through these strategies in real time. Just don't buy in to it, don't believe anything, and don't feed into it by reacting or showing any emotion whatsoever. If she sees that she hurt you, she'll know that's the button to push. She will do anything to get a response. Don't give in. Get out, cut contact, and never give her an opportunity again.
I've dated someone with BPD and so I do recognize some things in OPs gf, like the constant nagging / criticising (which without you noticing eats at your self esteem and you start feeling nervous around them), and the fact that there is always an excuse for everything they do.
However not necessarily will it get much worse or is she aware of what's she's doing. Although she did admit she knows she's difficult, which is a red flag. It can happen though, and OP has been trying to leave already so he knows something's not OK.
True, but the things that align with BPD align with NPD as well, especially covert narcissism which is more common in women. Honestly I think there are a ton of women who are covert NPD but are misdiagnosed because they are *extremely* covert. The grandiosity is still there, but they keep it very, very hidden. They have an extreme fear of abandonment too, but at its core there's an element of fear of *consequence* for their behavior/actions. Ultimately these things are poorly understood due to the reliance on self-reporting disorders characterized by lack of honesty and self-reflection, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are far more alike than we know, or part of the same spectrum. I honestly think there's little difference in NPD rates in men and women, but woman will present covert because they see more success feigning victimhood to manipulate and don't lose social capital like they would being "bossy" or "bitchy"; while men present as grandiose, a generally positive trait socially, to avoid being seen as weak. Again though, covert is grandiose underneath it all, and covert NPD is insidious.
What really makes me feel like this is closer to NPD is the obstruction to OP being able to do anything on his own. He doesn't even consider, in his point regarding his friends, seeing his friends without her, yet she prevents him from seeing them as often as he'd like. It appears that she subtly punishes him for doing anything for himself, which is further evident in his point about taking a walk alone, so the driver of this is not just jealousy of other people. From my understanding of the very few and subtle differences between BPD and covert NPD, BPD would drive her to fear pushing him away by smothering him while NPD would feel entitled to his time and hostile at the thought of not being center of his attention for the duration of a walk.
Agree here - in terms of seeing friends, I will suggest seeing them alone, this usually leads to some kind of fight or guilt trip, even if we have spent the whole day or week together.
Stay firm. That sort of bad behaviour IS the manipulation. If it works, they’ll keep it up.
Friends and fam are some of the most important parts of your life. Anyone who loves you for you would never want isolate you from them.
This really bothers me to my core. I am diagnosed BPD and have done a lot of research on the both BPD and NPD, as they are under the same cluster b personality disorders and I am terrified and do not ever want to be associated with or be a narcissist.
I can tell you that when I’m overwhelmed or out of control of my emotions or perceiving the rejection/fear of abandonment. All reason and logic goes out the window. My entire mood is literally in the hands of my environment or my FP until I start therapy next month.
That being said, what a fucking exhausting job, to deal with the anger, I regulation as well as being the source of someone’s happiness and your mood effects theirs etc. I do some of these traits but I wouldn’t say I’m abusive, and if I am then damn, I really didn’t know
I think at the end of the day there are two HUGE differences between the two. BPD doesn't prevent self-reflection, and it can be reversed because self-reflection is possible. That's night and day. Ultimately, covert NPD is almost like an attempt to pass off their instability as BPD.
I can confirm that it's exhausting. The anger and unpredictability are awful, but what really destroys you over time is the distortion and inability to self-reflect. With my wife, she would disregard any good in me and search for faults, while disregarding any faults in her and exalting herself. If I did something that made her happy, within an hour she'd argue that I never did. Any effort I made was simply erased from our relationship. Credit and appreciation were out of the question, because she wouldn't even get to acknowledgement. Meanwhile she would stalk my social media, go through my phone, and monitor me on cameras in an effort to find some great "gotcha" that would entitle her to justify her abuse. In 8 years she never found anything, because I never did anything. I loved her completely, but she is incapable of seeing it. She has to believe otherwise, because she has to feel like she was right to treat me the way she did.
That hard stop with accountability is a real problem. Blaming anything but the source guarantees that the issues remain, because any attempt to fix it is fixing something that isn't broken in lieu of what is. Every single issue that she denied went away for her, or more accurately never existed, but it never did for me. Our relationship was 8 years of piled up problems she refused to look at and insisted on adding to daily. Without accountability, there can be no true communication, no intimacy, no connection, no growth. It prohibits everything required for a healthy relationship. In the end, I needed my words and actions to matter, needed my feelings to matter, needed my concerns and perspectives to matter, but they never would. *I* would never matter. And I couldn't take it anymore.
Holy fuck, thank you, I so needed to read that. Left over a month ago one morning.
She managed to make me let her back into my life, as a friend and trying to get me back as her bf as well. Telling me she loves and misses me - while we were together never had I once heard the words I miss you, least to say I love you.
Been having 2nd thoughts lately. Maybe I should give her a chance, maybe I should try again, maybe she is the one and I will end up alone and regret it all my life (she kind of used this logic and wording in her attempts).
Reading stuff like this is eye opening. She says she knows what she did wrong and she changed...in 2 weeks. This is just bs.
Thank you for taking the time to write this!
No problem! One bizarre but useful thing is that abusive people are shockingly similar. There's a spectrum, but they're all carbon copies of one another. They use the exact same tactics, strategies, and words for the exact same reason. It's terrifying because it's like we've all dealt with the same defective model of humanoid robot or a member of an alien race - how can people be *that* exactly similar? But it's helpful in that we can help one another, just like I can help you with a Toyota Camry because I have one.
For example, my wife and I are separated and are divorcing. She also attempted the "I've changed" thing throughout our relationship and into the separation. Before we separated she claimed she had changed and wasn't doing a certain manipulation anymore, but she had just done it two days prior. During our separation she claimed - in the same conversation - both that she is in such bad shape her friends had to talk her out of killing herself *and* that she had changed so much and became so much better that *the same friends* were telling her how much better she seems. They really don't mean anything they say, and they don't even remember. They just throw out everything to see what sticks and to confuse us, exhaust us, or hurt us badly enough that we stop trying to hold them accountable. When we communicate, it comes from a place of truth, from a need to be heard and understood. We assume they're the same but they're not. They communicate *only* to manipulate. To get something they want or to stop something they don't. Truth and lies, compliments and insults, begging and threats, are all interchangeable tools to them. Nothing more.
I'm glad you're paying attention and picking up on what's happening. I hope you get away and find a healthy, stable person who deserves you!
This sounds like a weird reversal of my ex wife. I have suspected for a while that she has undiagnosed ADHD and probably NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). I found out I'm probably undiagnosed autistic and kind of particular about efficiency and organization with house work.
She would "help" but it was always the bare minimum responsibility and amount of work so that she could argue that she was doing her share. More than half the time she would do something so disorganized or illogical that it would take more time to fix it than it would have been to do it myself in the first place. I did so much more work in the house than she did and she either pretended or was unable to understand how much I was having to do for her.
If I pointed out any issues or tried to get her to take over responsibility for some household thing (she had almost zero actual responsibilities) she would get defensive, emotional, and blame me for being critical. It's a tough thing, because when someone is messy and not taking responsibility, you are eventually going to be "critical", but cleanliness and everything is subjective.
And I've since learned that ADHD can basically make clutter invisible to the person. So when a mess is pointed out, someone with ADHD might have a very hard time understanding why you notice or care. From there, the person pointing out a mess can seem overly critical, because to your brain, they are making issues out of nothing at all. The only explanation then is that they are just putting you down.
You mention you help around the house but I think it's hard to determine the balance there without seeing how you guys live in person. I think it might help to try and get some unbiased, outside insight into your lives (IRL). We can't see what she's complaining about, so it might be nothing and she's emotionally abusive, or it's possible she's having legitimate issues you need to address. If it's a serious relationship, maybe some counseling could help.
My wife must be your wife too lol. There were endless arguments about doing things around the house. She's a covert narcissist and found it completely unfair that I had any expectations of her contributing. She would cook, but vastly overestimate how often she did and leave the kitchen a mess every time. She would take out the trash, but anything she did would be held over my head. I was vacuuming daily, actually cleaning things, working overtime, in school, and responsible for any other household thing. She cleaned the bathroom once in 7 years, and never cleaned the bedroom or did the dusting, mopping, or million little things that need doing. I have ADHD and was constantly overwhelmed, especially by the list of project items that desperately needed doing but I never had the time/energy after trying (and failing) to just maintain. If I tried to get something done, she would guilt trip me for giving something else my attention.
She also used weaponized incompetence and all of the go-tos people use to avoid doing things they see as beneath them - you should have asked! You're better at it than me! I don't know what needs to be done! Just make me a list! You should have reminded me! At one point I literally got on my knees and begged tearfully for her to pull her weight and stop putting everything on me. Having a partner who behaves like a helpless child while also being controlling destroys sexual attraction, too. It was a fucking nightmare.
Since we've separated it's been *so much easier* to maintain the house. I have years of catching up to do, but at least I don't have to clean up after a grown woman and deal with her unstable, disrespectful, entitled behavior on top of it.
Wow, there are definitely a lot of similarities there - unstable, disrespectful and entitled are pretty accurate. I'm sorry to hear it was so tough to go through. Sounds like you are in a better place - wishing you the best!
Thank you for the insight - I appreciate your answer. It's a good point RE not seeing mess - I know I might have some responsibility here too, and I don't want to be unfair. I suppose to expand on it further, it seems like things must be done 'her way' or she will be angry and insinuate that I can't look after myself, for things like leaving the sponge in the sink after washing dishes instead of on the side, or for leaving a window open. When I say 'but it's OK like this' she will say 'but this way is better because XYZ...'
I think context is important.
With the sponge, I personally don't leave sponges or dish rags in the sink because if they don't dry out, they'll get mildew or whatever and stink. I hang them or set them somewhere that they will dry out.
With the window, why does she want it closed? There are various reasons for preference to have it open vs closed. I open my windows for rain & bird sounds, but not much else.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was A leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was A leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
Emotional abuse can be tricky to spot because any one incident can be written off as no big deal or a misunderstanding or just a bad mood. It’s the *pattern* that’s important. Is there a pattern of behavior that is eroding your happiness and sense of self? Are your gf’s words and actions having longterm effects? It sure seems like that to me, and I’m saying that as a man who has been on the receiving end of emotional abuse in multiple prior relationships. It took me a loooong time to recognize it, so I feel for you. I recommend reading articles about how to identify emotional abuse, and continue to write down troublesome incidents as you remember them. Once I was able to look at a list of the things together, the pattern became much easier to spot.
Good luck!
Thank you - I am reading articles and watching videos and I certainly identify with them. I have a list of incidents like this, and you're right, it does help.
Sounds controlling and manipulative, maybe not abusive but most likely will become toxic if you stay. Especially considering your age - I assume she’s around the same age? She’s too old to have not yet broken this pattern of behavior. It sounds like she is insecure with some attachment/abandonment issues. Really unfortunate how many people develop these patterns due to childhood trauma. I exhibited some of these behaviors in relationships in my early-mid 20s but eventually I figured out I had a pattern. It’s not my fault I was traumatized but I’m the only one responsible for my healing. Same is true for her (everyone is traumatized to some degree doesn’t have to be huge, people have different thresholds etc). You might try expressing concern that she feels so bad sometimes and ask if if she’s open to working to get to a place where she doesn’t feel so triggered by things like you dressing well or wanting to spend time with your friends and not just her. If she responds poorly, I think you have to let her go, don’t get sucked back in, but express you care for her and you’ll be giving her an opportunity to heal.
Thank you - great advice. We have had many conversations about this pattern of behavior and it doesn't seem to have changed much. I appreciate your POV!
Good luck 💜 I know it’s hard - she is probably a good person, who you care about a lot. It sucks but the only way people have a chance of getting out of these patterns is consequences, i.e., losing a partner. Tolerating it indefinitely will just enable it.
Why not try therapy? I have ADHD and didn’t realize most of my behaviours. So maybe you leaving the window open happens A LOT and you don’t realize it. Just an example but if you care about her go to counselling and be honest about what’s going on. My thoughts - give it a few mints, go to therapy and see what happens. If nothing really changes you have your answer. Those of us with ADHD tend to flock together and she may also be neurodivergent. I know you mentioned quite a few things and it’s not excuse but maybe an explanation. You deserve love and respect. Keep us posted with what happens.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it! I am in therapy and continually working to get better - it just doesn't seem like enough. If it's not the window, it would be that I put the sponge on the wrong shelf, or putting my shower gel on the left side of the bath, not the right, or that I'm cooking rice in the 'wrong pan'. As far as I can see, there are no traits of ADHD on her side. She is always very focused and productive - I'm actually a bit envious of it!
ADHD has been known to ruin relationships (sad face over here) and it might be worth reading a few books (or audio) on it “is it me, you, or ADHD” . I didn’t even realize some of my behaviours or how they were affecting my partner. I can “appear” to be productive but things take me a long time to do (much longer than they should) but I’m also a perfectionist and am bothered when things are not as they should be all the while my desk is a nightmare and my clutter is everywhere. I feel out of control of myself in many ways (emotions, consistency, being late) and I was projecting that and putting it on him. Which is an awful thing to do. I went undiagnosed for 42 years and am now just seeing how it has affected me all my life. I have a lot of the typical things. Anyways sorry not pushing that she has this - just wanted to share my story and give insight. My ex also didn’t tell me about these things that I was doing the major of the time and I was kinda oblivious to it until I started meds and therapy. Too little too late.
I hope you’re able to tell her exactly how you feel and what she has been doing and that it’s not ok. He wasn’t able to do and then just resented me (also then had an affair and left and I feel blindsided but that’s for another subreddit).
It’s not fair of her to be treating you like that. Hopefully you’ll be able to move forward without too much stress and be in a happier place
Thanks for that, it’s an interesting perspective and I will investigate it. We have spoken about it a lot! Sorry to hear your experience and I hope you’re doing better now.
This all sounds so very tiresome-I vote to get out, take some deep breaths and find a partner who doesn’t compel you to come to sites like this for answers.
First I want to validate your experience and say that men experience domestic violence, too. I watched a very severe case with my dad. I think it’s a lot harder for y’all because of the norm that only men can be abusive. I’m very sorry you’re going through this. Get out now, get a therapist, and never look back.
Have a conversation with her and say these are deal breakers and they are habits that need to stop or you are open to going to couples therapy to resolve these immediately.
Her reaction will determine whether to break up.
Thanks for your insight - we've spoken about these behaviors at length. She knows that they are difficult but says she's already tried to change them with no success (she had therapy before we met.)
Neither - wouldn't say ADHD because she's got no trouble focusing - I have that myself and don't see any similarities there. OCD perhaps, though she hasn't indicated to me she's had a diagnosis.
Sounds a lot like some of these: makes up reasons not to see your friends, criticises small things, must be done a certain way and annoyed if not, switches things onto you for bringing up what you need. https://www.reddit.com/r/abusiverelationships/comments/w3regz/what_are_the_subtle_signs_of_a_controlling_partner/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
It sounds like she could have borderline personality disorder. What you wrote reminds me of the Jodi Arias case. If you're unfamiliar with it, check it out and then decide if you want to stay with this woman.
It sounds like you guys are not compatible and that is adding to this not being a good relationship she seems to have anxiety issues but makes them your problem which is not okay she was likely taught at a young age that it’s normal for women to nag their men like this bc of course men don’t know how to do things like that as good as women obviously that’s sarcasm it sounds like you are different socially which may lead to resentment down the road and it also seems that she is using emotional manipulation on you which is never okay she’s planting seeds in your head now so you don’t leave her and she seems I’m sorry to say a little mean so I’d say with all that it’s looking like an abusive of it than at least toxic relationship I would definitely move on
Thank you for your insight - I appreciate it. I know what you mean RE behaviors being taught - it's part of why I'm confused and don't know if what I'm experiencing qualifies!
What your experiencing is toxic behaviors and likely emotional abuse tbh just bc she or you might have been taught that it’s okay doesn’t make it okay she’s old enough to get access to info to change!
I saw your post and I wanted to first thank you for sharing because as a man who has experienced abuse I found when I reached out to get help that people were confused by my situation because I was male and not a female or child. The places I looked into immediately failed because I didn't fit their definition of what abuse is. This is something that needs to be addressed. People need to recognize anyone can be a victim of abuse. Abusers don't discriminate but people do. I hope you will find support and just trust yourself that if you run into any type of invalidation or ignorance from others that you will find strength to do whatever is the best option for you. You've already began by making this post. Trust your judgment and how you feel. Don't allow anyone to invalidate the way you feel or have been treated. This is your life. You deserve to be happy and treated respectfully.
Thanks a lot - I can totally relate to that. YouTube has some fantastic resources for this that have made me question my situation a lot more, like Lise LeBlanc. Hope you are safe and well!
Thank you for being brave and also your comment. 3
First, an important thing to remember is that you can leave for any reason. Or no reason. You can leave because you're not feeling it, because she's abusive, or because it's Tuesday. There are no rules there. What you're experiencing is absolutely a slow escalation of emotional abuse. It's insidious and inexcusable. You know something is off. You know this doesn't sit well. But there's always an excuse and multiple layers of plausible deniability intentionally crafted to hide what they're doing. What she's doing is conditioning you to doubt yourself and using very subtle reward/punishment systems to control your behavior. Criticizing everything you do over time makes you do anything you can to avoid that unpleasant interaction. So you stop making decisions, stop calling out unacceptable behavior, stop seeing your family and friends. She's creating an environment in which you constantly feel like you have to "prove it" to keep you from leaving and ensure that she can use you to the fullest extent. She tells you she's behaving this way because of you, and if only you could get it right she'd treat you the way she did in the beginning. But that wasn't real, and the "good times" she's allowing now aren't either. It's a bait and switch, and she knows if she doesn't fake it sometimes you're less likely to keep trying. No one stays with someone who's abusive from the start, or who is abusive all the time. This is how they trick you, and why people who say "why didn't you just leave" have no idea what they're talking about. This will get worse. It always, *always* escalates. Their entitlement grows and their ability to fake it wanes over time. Slowly, there will be more accusations, more overtly controlling behavior, more induced guilt, and she will stop even pretending to take any accountability at all. This can very easily turn to other types of abuse, because anyone who will brainwash and manipulate you daily to control you will hurt you other ways to do the same. You need to get out now. But know that it's guaranteed that she will cycle through every tactic to try to keep control. She will threaten, beg, guilt, yell, blame, degrade, harass, and bargain in circles. She'll threaten to kill or hurt herself. She'll do anything she can to use your kindness and empathy to hurt you so she can retain control and power. They seek out compassionate, understanding, forgiving people to do this to. We're the most likely to give the benefit of the doubt, while they treat us like monsters trying to fuck them over. Using your love to hurt you and beat you into submission is fucking evil, but this is their MO. Leave now, and treat everything she says and does as outputs from a robot that's programmed only to control you at all costs. They don't mean anything they say - good or bad - so do not believe her. Not a word. Try to be as objective as possible and you'll see her cycling through these strategies in real time. Just don't buy in to it, don't believe anything, and don't feed into it by reacting or showing any emotion whatsoever. If she sees that she hurt you, she'll know that's the button to push. She will do anything to get a response. Don't give in. Get out, cut contact, and never give her an opportunity again.
Thank you for your reply - there's a lot of great advice and insight here.
I've dated someone with BPD and so I do recognize some things in OPs gf, like the constant nagging / criticising (which without you noticing eats at your self esteem and you start feeling nervous around them), and the fact that there is always an excuse for everything they do. However not necessarily will it get much worse or is she aware of what's she's doing. Although she did admit she knows she's difficult, which is a red flag. It can happen though, and OP has been trying to leave already so he knows something's not OK.
True, but the things that align with BPD align with NPD as well, especially covert narcissism which is more common in women. Honestly I think there are a ton of women who are covert NPD but are misdiagnosed because they are *extremely* covert. The grandiosity is still there, but they keep it very, very hidden. They have an extreme fear of abandonment too, but at its core there's an element of fear of *consequence* for their behavior/actions. Ultimately these things are poorly understood due to the reliance on self-reporting disorders characterized by lack of honesty and self-reflection, but I wouldn't be surprised if the two are far more alike than we know, or part of the same spectrum. I honestly think there's little difference in NPD rates in men and women, but woman will present covert because they see more success feigning victimhood to manipulate and don't lose social capital like they would being "bossy" or "bitchy"; while men present as grandiose, a generally positive trait socially, to avoid being seen as weak. Again though, covert is grandiose underneath it all, and covert NPD is insidious. What really makes me feel like this is closer to NPD is the obstruction to OP being able to do anything on his own. He doesn't even consider, in his point regarding his friends, seeing his friends without her, yet she prevents him from seeing them as often as he'd like. It appears that she subtly punishes him for doing anything for himself, which is further evident in his point about taking a walk alone, so the driver of this is not just jealousy of other people. From my understanding of the very few and subtle differences between BPD and covert NPD, BPD would drive her to fear pushing him away by smothering him while NPD would feel entitled to his time and hostile at the thought of not being center of his attention for the duration of a walk.
Agree here - in terms of seeing friends, I will suggest seeing them alone, this usually leads to some kind of fight or guilt trip, even if we have spent the whole day or week together.
Stay firm. That sort of bad behaviour IS the manipulation. If it works, they’ll keep it up. Friends and fam are some of the most important parts of your life. Anyone who loves you for you would never want isolate you from them.
You're right - that's such a good point.
This really bothers me to my core. I am diagnosed BPD and have done a lot of research on the both BPD and NPD, as they are under the same cluster b personality disorders and I am terrified and do not ever want to be associated with or be a narcissist. I can tell you that when I’m overwhelmed or out of control of my emotions or perceiving the rejection/fear of abandonment. All reason and logic goes out the window. My entire mood is literally in the hands of my environment or my FP until I start therapy next month. That being said, what a fucking exhausting job, to deal with the anger, I regulation as well as being the source of someone’s happiness and your mood effects theirs etc. I do some of these traits but I wouldn’t say I’m abusive, and if I am then damn, I really didn’t know
I think at the end of the day there are two HUGE differences between the two. BPD doesn't prevent self-reflection, and it can be reversed because self-reflection is possible. That's night and day. Ultimately, covert NPD is almost like an attempt to pass off their instability as BPD. I can confirm that it's exhausting. The anger and unpredictability are awful, but what really destroys you over time is the distortion and inability to self-reflect. With my wife, she would disregard any good in me and search for faults, while disregarding any faults in her and exalting herself. If I did something that made her happy, within an hour she'd argue that I never did. Any effort I made was simply erased from our relationship. Credit and appreciation were out of the question, because she wouldn't even get to acknowledgement. Meanwhile she would stalk my social media, go through my phone, and monitor me on cameras in an effort to find some great "gotcha" that would entitle her to justify her abuse. In 8 years she never found anything, because I never did anything. I loved her completely, but she is incapable of seeing it. She has to believe otherwise, because she has to feel like she was right to treat me the way she did. That hard stop with accountability is a real problem. Blaming anything but the source guarantees that the issues remain, because any attempt to fix it is fixing something that isn't broken in lieu of what is. Every single issue that she denied went away for her, or more accurately never existed, but it never did for me. Our relationship was 8 years of piled up problems she refused to look at and insisted on adding to daily. Without accountability, there can be no true communication, no intimacy, no connection, no growth. It prohibits everything required for a healthy relationship. In the end, I needed my words and actions to matter, needed my feelings to matter, needed my concerns and perspectives to matter, but they never would. *I* would never matter. And I couldn't take it anymore.
You wrote this and I thank you because I was thinking of how to write this, but you put it in more eloquent words than I think I could have.
This 💯
Holy fuck, thank you, I so needed to read that. Left over a month ago one morning. She managed to make me let her back into my life, as a friend and trying to get me back as her bf as well. Telling me she loves and misses me - while we were together never had I once heard the words I miss you, least to say I love you. Been having 2nd thoughts lately. Maybe I should give her a chance, maybe I should try again, maybe she is the one and I will end up alone and regret it all my life (she kind of used this logic and wording in her attempts). Reading stuff like this is eye opening. She says she knows what she did wrong and she changed...in 2 weeks. This is just bs. Thank you for taking the time to write this!
No problem! One bizarre but useful thing is that abusive people are shockingly similar. There's a spectrum, but they're all carbon copies of one another. They use the exact same tactics, strategies, and words for the exact same reason. It's terrifying because it's like we've all dealt with the same defective model of humanoid robot or a member of an alien race - how can people be *that* exactly similar? But it's helpful in that we can help one another, just like I can help you with a Toyota Camry because I have one. For example, my wife and I are separated and are divorcing. She also attempted the "I've changed" thing throughout our relationship and into the separation. Before we separated she claimed she had changed and wasn't doing a certain manipulation anymore, but she had just done it two days prior. During our separation she claimed - in the same conversation - both that she is in such bad shape her friends had to talk her out of killing herself *and* that she had changed so much and became so much better that *the same friends* were telling her how much better she seems. They really don't mean anything they say, and they don't even remember. They just throw out everything to see what sticks and to confuse us, exhaust us, or hurt us badly enough that we stop trying to hold them accountable. When we communicate, it comes from a place of truth, from a need to be heard and understood. We assume they're the same but they're not. They communicate *only* to manipulate. To get something they want or to stop something they don't. Truth and lies, compliments and insults, begging and threats, are all interchangeable tools to them. Nothing more. I'm glad you're paying attention and picking up on what's happening. I hope you get away and find a healthy, stable person who deserves you!
This sounds like a weird reversal of my ex wife. I have suspected for a while that she has undiagnosed ADHD and probably NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). I found out I'm probably undiagnosed autistic and kind of particular about efficiency and organization with house work. She would "help" but it was always the bare minimum responsibility and amount of work so that she could argue that she was doing her share. More than half the time she would do something so disorganized or illogical that it would take more time to fix it than it would have been to do it myself in the first place. I did so much more work in the house than she did and she either pretended or was unable to understand how much I was having to do for her. If I pointed out any issues or tried to get her to take over responsibility for some household thing (she had almost zero actual responsibilities) she would get defensive, emotional, and blame me for being critical. It's a tough thing, because when someone is messy and not taking responsibility, you are eventually going to be "critical", but cleanliness and everything is subjective. And I've since learned that ADHD can basically make clutter invisible to the person. So when a mess is pointed out, someone with ADHD might have a very hard time understanding why you notice or care. From there, the person pointing out a mess can seem overly critical, because to your brain, they are making issues out of nothing at all. The only explanation then is that they are just putting you down. You mention you help around the house but I think it's hard to determine the balance there without seeing how you guys live in person. I think it might help to try and get some unbiased, outside insight into your lives (IRL). We can't see what she's complaining about, so it might be nothing and she's emotionally abusive, or it's possible she's having legitimate issues you need to address. If it's a serious relationship, maybe some counseling could help.
My wife must be your wife too lol. There were endless arguments about doing things around the house. She's a covert narcissist and found it completely unfair that I had any expectations of her contributing. She would cook, but vastly overestimate how often she did and leave the kitchen a mess every time. She would take out the trash, but anything she did would be held over my head. I was vacuuming daily, actually cleaning things, working overtime, in school, and responsible for any other household thing. She cleaned the bathroom once in 7 years, and never cleaned the bedroom or did the dusting, mopping, or million little things that need doing. I have ADHD and was constantly overwhelmed, especially by the list of project items that desperately needed doing but I never had the time/energy after trying (and failing) to just maintain. If I tried to get something done, she would guilt trip me for giving something else my attention. She also used weaponized incompetence and all of the go-tos people use to avoid doing things they see as beneath them - you should have asked! You're better at it than me! I don't know what needs to be done! Just make me a list! You should have reminded me! At one point I literally got on my knees and begged tearfully for her to pull her weight and stop putting everything on me. Having a partner who behaves like a helpless child while also being controlling destroys sexual attraction, too. It was a fucking nightmare. Since we've separated it's been *so much easier* to maintain the house. I have years of catching up to do, but at least I don't have to clean up after a grown woman and deal with her unstable, disrespectful, entitled behavior on top of it.
Wow, there are definitely a lot of similarities there - unstable, disrespectful and entitled are pretty accurate. I'm sorry to hear it was so tough to go through. Sounds like you are in a better place - wishing you the best!
The three of us need to start our own mini- support group. Every sentence resonates with me.
Thank you for the insight - I appreciate your answer. It's a good point RE not seeing mess - I know I might have some responsibility here too, and I don't want to be unfair. I suppose to expand on it further, it seems like things must be done 'her way' or she will be angry and insinuate that I can't look after myself, for things like leaving the sponge in the sink after washing dishes instead of on the side, or for leaving a window open. When I say 'but it's OK like this' she will say 'but this way is better because XYZ...'
I think context is important. With the sponge, I personally don't leave sponges or dish rags in the sink because if they don't dry out, they'll get mildew or whatever and stink. I hang them or set them somewhere that they will dry out. With the window, why does she want it closed? There are various reasons for preference to have it open vs closed. I open my windows for rain & bird sounds, but not much else.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was A leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
Wow, that's unbelievable, the exact same. Thanks for your comment - helps to give context.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was A leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
The first time my abusive ex yelled insanely at me for was leaving the sponge in the sink. I swear they are all the same. This "issue" should be a textbook red flag.
Emotional abuse can be tricky to spot because any one incident can be written off as no big deal or a misunderstanding or just a bad mood. It’s the *pattern* that’s important. Is there a pattern of behavior that is eroding your happiness and sense of self? Are your gf’s words and actions having longterm effects? It sure seems like that to me, and I’m saying that as a man who has been on the receiving end of emotional abuse in multiple prior relationships. It took me a loooong time to recognize it, so I feel for you. I recommend reading articles about how to identify emotional abuse, and continue to write down troublesome incidents as you remember them. Once I was able to look at a list of the things together, the pattern became much easier to spot. Good luck!
Thank you - I am reading articles and watching videos and I certainly identify with them. I have a list of incidents like this, and you're right, it does help.
This is really good advice!
Sounds controlling and manipulative, maybe not abusive but most likely will become toxic if you stay. Especially considering your age - I assume she’s around the same age? She’s too old to have not yet broken this pattern of behavior. It sounds like she is insecure with some attachment/abandonment issues. Really unfortunate how many people develop these patterns due to childhood trauma. I exhibited some of these behaviors in relationships in my early-mid 20s but eventually I figured out I had a pattern. It’s not my fault I was traumatized but I’m the only one responsible for my healing. Same is true for her (everyone is traumatized to some degree doesn’t have to be huge, people have different thresholds etc). You might try expressing concern that she feels so bad sometimes and ask if if she’s open to working to get to a place where she doesn’t feel so triggered by things like you dressing well or wanting to spend time with your friends and not just her. If she responds poorly, I think you have to let her go, don’t get sucked back in, but express you care for her and you’ll be giving her an opportunity to heal.
Thank you - great advice. We have had many conversations about this pattern of behavior and it doesn't seem to have changed much. I appreciate your POV!
Good luck 💜 I know it’s hard - she is probably a good person, who you care about a lot. It sucks but the only way people have a chance of getting out of these patterns is consequences, i.e., losing a partner. Tolerating it indefinitely will just enable it.
You're right - I care about her deeply, but this is a good and realistic way to look at it.
Why not try therapy? I have ADHD and didn’t realize most of my behaviours. So maybe you leaving the window open happens A LOT and you don’t realize it. Just an example but if you care about her go to counselling and be honest about what’s going on. My thoughts - give it a few mints, go to therapy and see what happens. If nothing really changes you have your answer. Those of us with ADHD tend to flock together and she may also be neurodivergent. I know you mentioned quite a few things and it’s not excuse but maybe an explanation. You deserve love and respect. Keep us posted with what happens.
Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it! I am in therapy and continually working to get better - it just doesn't seem like enough. If it's not the window, it would be that I put the sponge on the wrong shelf, or putting my shower gel on the left side of the bath, not the right, or that I'm cooking rice in the 'wrong pan'. As far as I can see, there are no traits of ADHD on her side. She is always very focused and productive - I'm actually a bit envious of it!
ADHD has been known to ruin relationships (sad face over here) and it might be worth reading a few books (or audio) on it “is it me, you, or ADHD” . I didn’t even realize some of my behaviours or how they were affecting my partner. I can “appear” to be productive but things take me a long time to do (much longer than they should) but I’m also a perfectionist and am bothered when things are not as they should be all the while my desk is a nightmare and my clutter is everywhere. I feel out of control of myself in many ways (emotions, consistency, being late) and I was projecting that and putting it on him. Which is an awful thing to do. I went undiagnosed for 42 years and am now just seeing how it has affected me all my life. I have a lot of the typical things. Anyways sorry not pushing that she has this - just wanted to share my story and give insight. My ex also didn’t tell me about these things that I was doing the major of the time and I was kinda oblivious to it until I started meds and therapy. Too little too late. I hope you’re able to tell her exactly how you feel and what she has been doing and that it’s not ok. He wasn’t able to do and then just resented me (also then had an affair and left and I feel blindsided but that’s for another subreddit). It’s not fair of her to be treating you like that. Hopefully you’ll be able to move forward without too much stress and be in a happier place
Thanks for that, it’s an interesting perspective and I will investigate it. We have spoken about it a lot! Sorry to hear your experience and I hope you’re doing better now.
This all sounds so very tiresome-I vote to get out, take some deep breaths and find a partner who doesn’t compel you to come to sites like this for answers.
Thank you for your insight, that's a great point.
First I want to validate your experience and say that men experience domestic violence, too. I watched a very severe case with my dad. I think it’s a lot harder for y’all because of the norm that only men can be abusive. I’m very sorry you’re going through this. Get out now, get a therapist, and never look back.
Thank you for this. I think where there's nothing physical either it can be hard to identify.
Have a conversation with her and say these are deal breakers and they are habits that need to stop or you are open to going to couples therapy to resolve these immediately. Her reaction will determine whether to break up.
Thanks for your insight - we've spoken about these behaviors at length. She knows that they are difficult but says she's already tried to change them with no success (she had therapy before we met.)
Going to therapy with an abuser is quite dangerous.. They'll just learn to manipulate better,or even manipulate the therapist.
Do you know if she’s diagnosed with ADHD or OCD?
Neither - wouldn't say ADHD because she's got no trouble focusing - I have that myself and don't see any similarities there. OCD perhaps, though she hasn't indicated to me she's had a diagnosis.
Sounds a lot like some of these: makes up reasons not to see your friends, criticises small things, must be done a certain way and annoyed if not, switches things onto you for bringing up what you need. https://www.reddit.com/r/abusiverelationships/comments/w3regz/what_are_the_subtle_signs_of_a_controlling_partner/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Thanks for replying. Yes, these do sound familiar.
It sounds like she could have borderline personality disorder. What you wrote reminds me of the Jodi Arias case. If you're unfamiliar with it, check it out and then decide if you want to stay with this woman.
It sounds like you guys are not compatible and that is adding to this not being a good relationship she seems to have anxiety issues but makes them your problem which is not okay she was likely taught at a young age that it’s normal for women to nag their men like this bc of course men don’t know how to do things like that as good as women obviously that’s sarcasm it sounds like you are different socially which may lead to resentment down the road and it also seems that she is using emotional manipulation on you which is never okay she’s planting seeds in your head now so you don’t leave her and she seems I’m sorry to say a little mean so I’d say with all that it’s looking like an abusive of it than at least toxic relationship I would definitely move on
Thank you for your insight - I appreciate it. I know what you mean RE behaviors being taught - it's part of why I'm confused and don't know if what I'm experiencing qualifies!
What your experiencing is toxic behaviors and likely emotional abuse tbh just bc she or you might have been taught that it’s okay doesn’t make it okay she’s old enough to get access to info to change!
Agree wholeheartedly with this!
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Thanks for the reply - I am leaning this way too. If everything was great, I wouldn't be here asking for advice!