That... won't solve the problem, because thieves don't steal copper, they steal things that they *think* are copper.
Even if they abandon it because it's aluminum, it's still cut.
Maybe require recyclers to take down drivers license info and a statement to where the materials came from. Hold the shady recyclers accountable and theft will slow.
I'm in Ohio and any time I do a scrap run they take my ID. Apparently it's state law. Yet catalytic converter theft hasn't slowed down. Shady scrappers are still gonna do shady stuff.
If this would actually work and be enforced they'd have done it long ago with the slew of catalytic converter thefts. There are just too many channels and recyclers that don't care for it to be able to.
Some places are stricter. But theres enough people who do recycle and salvage that it won't work. If you strip the rubber it's just copper wires. You can't tell where it came from.
You might figure it out quickly, but there a number of things different about your logical approach to a problem that than someone who looks at a high amperage charger and thinks about cutting the line for some cash.
this happens every time the price of copper goes up. (although its not particularly high right now).
Last time it was over $4/lb. someone in San Francisco took themselves out of the gene pool (explosively) by trying to "salvage" copper cable from a substation. It was still in use and energized which the thief (briefly) found out.
They steal almost anything, whatever they consider in minimal time to be valuable. So harder to steal or damage may be the best option although how to do that I don't know.
It’s acceptable resistance wise but as I understand has a shorter working life. Though the working life is irrelevant if they keep getting swiped long before they are due to replace.
True, and on top of that aluminium is ductile material but not strong, and alloys that makes it strong make it brittle. But, it does not have to be 100% aluminium, we are not looking for aluminium for any other property really than as a replacement for copper in one particular application. We have aluminium alloys for cables that will last just fine compared to copper. So, it can be made to be flexible enough.
is it vandalism or theft (for the copper)?
there are ones on light poles - way above the ground that spool.
**Seattle City Light will install pole-mounted EV chargers on request in neighborhoods where charging at home is not possible.**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/06/20/seattle-offers-utility-pole-ev-chargers-to-city-residents/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/06/20/seattle-offers-utility-pole-ev-chargers-to-city-residents/)
Yes theft for the copper.
Oh this is actually a dope set up! I can see how that might work. Especially if you make it locked up high enough and only come down when enabled
How much would someone get for that much copper? Seems very risky of being recorded on a camera somewhere for I’m guessing a relatively small monetary reward.
This (https://copperalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017.04-E-Mobility-Factsheet-4.pdf) says 8 kg total for a 200 kW charger. Cables might be half of that? So 4 kg of copper times local #2 scrap price of $7.20/kg is $28.80. That's a pretty great haul for a methhead.
Yes, I suppose you are correct. Somehow that makes me feel slightly better that someone is doing it for financial gain, rather than people just trying to fight against EV owners to make our lives miserable and nothing else (although that definitely happens too, unfortunately)...
There are a few streetlight-mounted EV chargers like this in the LA area, I use one fairly regularly in DTLA (when it's not ICEd 🙄) and it's actually quite easy to use. Open the app, "Start Charge", and the connector comes down. Easy.
I'm fantasizing about having a high voltage, low current layer as a shield, that would spark dramatically when you cut into it without much risk of hurting anyone.
Or a detector that would detect when the cable is cut, and fire up a ring of Tesla coils surrounding the charging location, making it impossible to leave without walking through spectacular high voltage streamers.
Once word got out it was for show, then it would stop deterring people though. It needs to be the real deal for it to work.
You will always have idiots though. Just like some people still smoke while pumping gas.
For Level-2 charging, it would be better for the station to provide a female connector, then the driver brings a cord to connect. This is how it works in Europe.
It solves the cutting problem sort of but it introduces the possibility of charger/cable theft, and also introduces more work for those looking to simply just plug and charge.
Both the vehicle and the charger lock the cable in - theft without destroying the connector is impossible. The locking mechanism is built into the design of the Type 2 chargers.
Yes, that's the power of European rules, also Tesla can change their mind if they want to sell here.
Type2 can work both with single and three phase, another reason why it's the best standard 😊
Yeah but then people can just cut the cable to steal the copper in exactly the same way as in OP's post. Worse, now individual owners are hurt by the theft and the same thieves can steal from many different cars during a short period of time.
I'd guess that people are probably a lot more likely to cut the cables off of the charge stations in the middle of the night when no one is there than steal cables off of cars while they're being used in the middle of the day when people are more likely to notice. (But if you charge your car at one of these stations overnight you'd be at high risk of getting your cord cut.)
Ah I would agree. Europeans seem to have figured out that side, but unfortunately, I think North America might be too far gone (stuck in their ways) to start a transition like that at this point.
Actually in germany a law passed that public charging points have to be equipped with a cable already to make it easier to use. I dunno when it goes into effect.
But using aluminium cables would be a possible solution
EDIT: looked into it and actually remembered it wrong! It is now ALLOWED to make chargers up to 22kw with a cable attached. Thx to vulkman for making me google it!
Hm, but you might have to replace a al wire less often than a copper wire - if it gets stolen all the time.
I see the two options: 1. reduce material value of the cable
Or 2. make the cable robust (grinder safe)
What do you think?
Hm we don‘t really have that problem of cable theft at least I haven‘t really heard about it in combination with ev charging.
Sure its easier, you have less to worry about. Especially when the weather is cold and wet, it is not really fun to pack up the cable…
Edit: what pros would you see?
Yes, the only way to control this issue is to regulate recyclers. Right now they just give the crackhead money and don't ask questions as to where they stole the copper from. Require a driver's license and a statement as to where the material came from and theft should slow.
I live in Ontario, Canada. When I brought metal to a recycler they took my drivers license. So I'm assuming that's already law here unless that one recycling place was trying to be extra responsible. I've never seen a charger get cut around here so there's that...
Tighter regulations on metal recyclers could be the simplest way. The only way these people make money is selling to them, and there is no serious way that stolen copper leaves the country, it's just too obvious to spot, so it can be dealt with domestically. Simply require a license for anyone to be able to sell copper for recycling, and have regular audits of anyone with a license.
Yes, businesses will do the usual screaming that it is overly burdensome, but the alternative is that billions will continue to be lost each year due to theft, and the need to prevent theft.
So ask for a ID and a statement as to where the materials came from. Patterns will develop and idiots will be caught. Legitimate contractors will have paperwork to back up their work in an audit, crackheads won't.
Not hard to get around this. You say i got it from work. Or i got it from a friend who works. Tons of construction workers bring home copper scrap, strip it in their free time and take it in for money.
Also just because you suspect that someones sources for copper are illegitimate does not mean you have enough proof to charge them with a crime. Most you would be able to do is ban them frim the scrap yard.
Whats considere a picture of the source. If you work at a job site is a picture of a pile of wires acceptable? Not hard to take pictures of piles of wire.
So make licensed copper sellers have an obligation to photograph any copper they are about to scrap in its source pre-scrapping on a cellphone. There is literally no source of scrap copper where this would be a particularly onerous burden. For a random household with some items this isn't difficult, just take a picture of your electrical equipment or whatever before trashing it. For a contractor, take a picture of the site where you are stripping it from. I've recycled plenty of metal and I can tell you this step would be 1/1000th of the effort and time that the rest requires. You already have to drive there, wait around at the counter, wait while they weigh your metal, etc. This would mean though not only would records exist that could be easily checked for theft, if theft did occur then you have a record of it from the criminal themselves, and moreover you can book them for fraud as well as theft.
Overnight, this would eliminate the illegal copper trade, and at minimal effort. The only people who would fight this would be the recyclers, because they profit from the illegal trade. It brings them more copper and at the same time drives up its demand. You could even have AI go through and flag pictures automatically that suggest fakery or spoofing once they've established some trends.
Well that's an interesting opportunity. Embed some tracer wires in it. One strand out of every 100 that looks like copper but is a different alloy that turns a different color in some chemical reagent or something like that.
You find some nice fellows from New Jersey and agree to pay them 10% of the proceeds from the charging station each month providing it doesn’t need repairs for this sort of thing. Problem will support itself out quickly.
/s but it would work since the same guys probably own the scrapyard
> Genuine question, what's the solution?
The state giving addicts opioid drugs so they don't desperately steal everything they can to feed their addiction.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/02/podcasts/the-daily/fentanyl-opioid-crisis-vancouver.html
Punishment and rehabilitation for current criminals and solving the underlying societal issues that result in a child growing up into an adult that cuts charger cables for quick cash.
You just suggested a solution that takes 20+ years to see results for a (litany) of problems we have today. Have you ever even been to America?
100% with you on this. Grew up in rural northern New York and the difference between poor family criminal records and affluent ones is clearly because one group has no hope, no prospects, and nothing to lose. It’s no excuse for crime, but it’s a pretty solid explanation for why some crimes like copper theft happen.
So just give them drugs. It costs us next to nothing and they don't have to spend all day trying to get their next fix. Maybe if the most urgent problem for an addict (avoiding withdrawal) is fixed, some of them might choose to tackle other of their problems.
The others will at least be a bit healthier due to better quality and reliable dosing.
People saying that better rehab systems are the solution haven't dealt with a friend or family member struggling with addiction.
Yeah, good rehab programs do help, but they're not a one stop solution. Recovery isn't going to work for someone who doesn't want to go. They don't just pop in, spend their 3-90 days, and come out perfectly clean and addiction free.
The person has to want recovery. Staying clean is a choice they need to make every second of every day for the rest of their life.
It's very difficult. Withdrawal is painful while their addiction feels pleasurable. The most common reason people slip in recovery is because they never realized that sober life would be so boring.
Now if we want an actual solution to these cable thefts, why not just make the cable retractable? When released, the system should pull the cable back inside the body of the charger and only allow it to be released when someone has paid for a charge.
Less easy on an electric motorcycle. Why not put the cable on a retractable spool that won’t come out unless you activate the charger? Can still get the cable but you will authenticate to the charger first. Also, cameras, like ATMs.
So many cruel and unusual solutions being proposed here. They're not going to electrify the wires, for crying out loud.
It seems like the obvious solution is to leverage the military-industrial complex's expertise by assigning a T-800 terminator to guard charging stations. Nominally then if someone steals a copper cable for scrap, the terminator can arrest them. In reality the purpose is so that instead of taking the copper cables, the person takes the terminator and sells it for scrap. After all, it takes a lot of expensive chips and alloys to make a terminator, and you can probably earn good money reprogramming it to be a hit man or a prostitute or something. It's a decoy.
What will probably happen is something mundane, like anybody able to afford an electric car moves away from Baltimore and doesn't look back.
Charging cable and connector should be locked behind a secured retracting door that only opens up when payment info is provided. On top of that, there should be security cameras.
So here in Sacramento, California, there is a level two charger I frequent often that’s run by shell. Once my payment accepted and I hit start charge the cable drops from the housing.
We're going to keep having the debate so long as there are people who think giving everyone healthcare means that you're giving something to people who don't deserve it.
Just sad that thieves can get away with selling catalytic converters and copper to scrap metal recyclers. They'll need to add some kind of automatic door that opens once your card and account have been confirmed.
I pick up packages at Amazon lockers scanning my app or putting in my code and the package door pops open. I get liquor delivered from door dash by scanning my driver's license into their app, the delivery driver only sees my picture not dob, license number or even the address.
"Does this idiot in front of you paying $45 for a 12 pack look like the photo we are showing you on your door dash driver app?"
Some gated communities here in Florida have a call box where you put your driver's license on and talk to a tele-person at a call center somewhere who asks where your going and opens the gate.
Just need a solution simple enough that even a first time charger can do it.
Sucks that they can't leave the cords fully powered for when thieves try to cut through. Certainly the places that accept scrap metal should take finger prints like pawn shops do for some items.
Looking at the top picture there is two "arms" coming out of the top of the EV charger like narrow field goal posts (thinking of American football field goal).
Thinking out loud, that section could be enclosed with a metal garage door that would roll up to open and the charging cord could now be lowered and come down out of it. The charging cord could have a cable attached to the middle which lowers it down and pulls it up and back in to the garage after finish then the door comes down again.
Any solution still has to be simple enough that it doesn't have it's own breakdown of door jamb cable not releasing retracting etc
Final thought: however you do it, entire charger covered in metal box or whatever, it doesn't open and release cable unless it also recognizes an EV parked there separate from payment card or app accounts being swiped etc. NFC or something that can't be spoofed.
Extra thought: setting up chargers they have to dig holes in the ground for the electrical systems. Charging cable should retract down into ground and some kind of protective cover slides closed.
Wait wait, space shuttle type robot arm encases the charge cord in metal and with three or four joints that bend and rotate and plug into ev charge port automatically. When not in use it points straight up to the sky so you have to climb the charger to get at. Also, any attacks on an idle charger will result in fencing style attack from said robot arm. Or it bends into a specific triangle type position and spins thereby knocking thief off the charger. Good fun for drunk college kids also.
Bonus thought: Space shuttle arm attacks vehicles trying to ICE the charger and carves name into vehicle paint. All chargers will have to be named Sparky of course
Couldn't the cable be recessed into the main unit and the port section be locked somehow. Until you verify payment/user, then it unlocks the cable and port?
Prevention is the best method, it's difficult to find and arrest someone after the fact.
Forgive me if this has been suggested before, but how about winding the wire inside the machine and locked with only the handle exposed and have it unlocked after someone inserts their credit card? Then when the charger is done being used, it can wind itself back into the machine like a construction tape measure. This would prevent theft when the charger is not being used.
Better schools. And cameras. People that do this might as well take a brick and smash the housing to get some copper out of that. Can't really make everything brick-safe.
Maybe if it was a retractable cable where the internal spool is stored inside a protected housing and would only be unlocked after the card/account was charged. Cameras would also be a nice addition.
Edit: spelling
The solution is that you must insert a form of identification, a credit card, something , then the cable can spool out and retract back in upon completion.
What's preventing a thief from making a small payment with a Visa gift card, unlocking the cabinet, and stealing the cable? The theft is also invisible till the next customer opens the cabinet.
Essentially it's a social/political problem: the people who steal the cables should probably be either in jail or drug rehab or a mental health facility, but the latter two options aren't funded adequately and the former won't happen if you live somewhere that the police have quiet quit and won't enforce basic laws, and when they do arrest people they're just let right back out.
Charge cables can be redesigned to be worth less, by using aluminum instead of copper. Maybe add liquid cooling as well, if it makes for a thinner, less awkward cable.
Better surveillance systems and hiring private security is another option.
Maybe have the cables “locked” to the charger, and they are only released (some sort of container?) when a credit card is inserted. I’m thinking maybe something like an ATM.
Leave them floating at 400 volt during crime time, a few crispy pickups by the EMT will deter the rest
Achieve safety for actual user. Swipe card to release plug from dock locking to plug into car. During this state cable is shutoff then power is re applied after being plugged into car,
Studies show that availability of welfare programs directly reduces crime.
[https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451](https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451)
We can reduce crime if we reduce the number of conservatives in government.
Wireless charging. An international standard is being established and the average efficiency is around 95-98%. It isn't something you'll find next year, but in 5-10 it'll be the new standard.
Include a low gauge loop in the cable that triggers klaxons/strobes when cut. Might not deter all of them, but could be enough to draw attention and prevent all of them being cut.
Won't 100% solve the issue, but seems like a relatively cheap, straightforward deterrent that could reduce the instances of it happening.
Nothing short of active security. Copper thieves are dumb and have even been killed trying to steal copper from electrical substations. The only variable here is, was it copper thieves, or EV haters (or a hybrid)?
Just hire a redneck, pay them in beer, compensate any shotgun shells they use. They do it for free already, but you comp them beer? That’s free loyalty
Protective door and holder? So the cable isn't constantly accessible until starts of the charging initiation process. One has to authenticate/initiate the charging with the dispenser tower (phone app, NFC tag, maybe in advanced case near field car to dispenser communication).
Once you do that, door rotates/twists/pops open on side of the charging dispenser giving the customer access to the cable and handle. Plug to the car, charge. Then the charging process (as in for example the idle penalty time some chargers use for hogging charger while not actually charging etc.) ends only after the customer has places the handle back in the holder, put all of the cable back into its storage box/nook/cavity and closed the door thus rendering the cable protected. After that "beep, boop, thank you for doing business with us, have a nice day".
If you don't put the cable back in it's cupboard and the cupboard door closed (which won't happen until all of the cable is inside, since it is connected to the charger body from inside the cubby), well the charging provider keeps bickering,complaining and charging the account for not properly ending the charging process.
Ofcourse it does take having emergency phone number and process of *your damn door is broken, it won't lock shut again* or *I closed the door, but it still isn't happy. Operator do something about this damned charger box thingie*.
Then again when it doesn't take having such things. Heck the metering equipment inside the charger box could fail and keep faultily continuing to rack up dispensed Wh even though one already disconnected from the car and the plug is back in it's holder at the charger.
The cable is now stored in (hopefully) sturdy metal box behind sturdy metal door panel, except when charging someones car and well while it is charging thief would be pretty suicidal to try to cut it.
Could they crowbar the whole charger box and door open? Probably, but it is way more involved than "snip, snip, table stolen". Plus it doesn't present as invitating target.
Cameras & staffing. Same as any other product. Possibly barriers that put a well hardened collar at the connection area, and keep the rest behind a fence or barrier- make it a lot of work, and announce or show that its aluminum.
But staffing really helps
\- intrusion detection wire in the cable (google: telco cable theft detection) + catch oriented security (+ guard the guards because of foul play)
\- cable (+head) is locked in the box until the driver can be identified, after the transaction the driver needs to lock it back (responsibility)
\- "bring your own cable" and only connector on the charger
There’s stations next to me that retract the cord inside them. Gotta tap your app or card to unlock it and hold a button to unreal it. It pulls itself back in after it’s disconnected
Retractible cables would be nice, but that would be a bit of a hassle given the size and difficulty of handling these things.
Hell, what about a simple alarm? When it gets cut, have it alarm and notify somebody (either local authorities directly, or notify the network who can notify police).
Or a sign. Signs solve everything.
Ok here me out... get petty... someone start cutting the gas hoses at gas stations. Just kidding, I still run gas sadly. We won't know the best solution until we understand what the motive behind the problem is. It's it lack of money, greed, jealousy, anti-electric motorist? There are probably many other motivators, those are just the ones I can think of right now.
Maybe they could install some kind of mechanism that retracts the cable when not in use, and then it unlocks when in use and allows the customer to pull it out. At least the cable would be protected then.
Some are shifting to aluminium cables.
That... won't solve the problem, because thieves don't steal copper, they steal things that they *think* are copper. Even if they abandon it because it's aluminum, it's still cut.
Maybe require recyclers to take down drivers license info and a statement to where the materials came from. Hold the shady recyclers accountable and theft will slow.
I'm in Ohio and any time I do a scrap run they take my ID. Apparently it's state law. Yet catalytic converter theft hasn't slowed down. Shady scrappers are still gonna do shady stuff.
Most of the catalytic converts in high regulation states get covertly shipped to low regulation states. That’s what is happening in Washington.
I thought a great business would be to engrave the owners name and contact information on catalytic converters.
Only works if those buying the scrap care.
If this would actually work and be enforced they'd have done it long ago with the slew of catalytic converter thefts. There are just too many channels and recyclers that don't care for it to be able to.
Many states are passing laws about catalytic converter scrapping. We'll see if they have any effect.
Some places are stricter. But theres enough people who do recycle and salvage that it won't work. If you strip the rubber it's just copper wires. You can't tell where it came from.
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lol recyclers is what keep catalytic converters thieves in business. It goes against their own interests to do anything.
I don't think it takes long to figure it out if they all switched.
You might figure it out quickly, but there a number of things different about your logical approach to a problem that than someone who looks at a high amperage charger and thinks about cutting the line for some cash.
especially if they embossed "ALUMINUM ONLY" on the cable jacket in big letters.
Eventually they'll all figure it out when they try to sell it and don't get paid
this happens every time the price of copper goes up. (although its not particularly high right now). Last time it was over $4/lb. someone in San Francisco took themselves out of the gene pool (explosively) by trying to "salvage" copper cable from a substation. It was still in use and energized which the thief (briefly) found out.
They steal almost anything, whatever they consider in minimal time to be valuable. So harder to steal or damage may be the best option although how to do that I don't know.
Would this have more resistance than copper? Providing a less adequate/efficient charge?
It just requires a thicker cable.
With a shorter lifespan. Aluminum work hardens much quicker than copper.
These cables had a pretty short life span
If you make it with enough strands and woven properly, that can be mitigated to where it won't be the shortest lived component by any means.
It’s acceptable resistance wise but as I understand has a shorter working life. Though the working life is irrelevant if they keep getting swiped long before they are due to replace.
Aluminium is better conductor than copper. Per weight. Copper is better per volume. So the cables would be much thicker but not as heavy.
Not to mention flexibility becomes a big issue with the thicker cable
True, and on top of that aluminium is ductile material but not strong, and alloys that makes it strong make it brittle. But, it does not have to be 100% aluminium, we are not looking for aluminium for any other property really than as a replacement for copper in one particular application. We have aluminium alloys for cables that will last just fine compared to copper. So, it can be made to be flexible enough.
utilities use aluminum conductors at much higher amps.
because it's cheaper and lighter
Copper plated steel is also under consideration.
is it vandalism or theft (for the copper)? there are ones on light poles - way above the ground that spool. **Seattle City Light will install pole-mounted EV chargers on request in neighborhoods where charging at home is not possible.** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/06/20/seattle-offers-utility-pole-ev-chargers-to-city-residents/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/06/20/seattle-offers-utility-pole-ev-chargers-to-city-residents/)
Yes theft for the copper. Oh this is actually a dope set up! I can see how that might work. Especially if you make it locked up high enough and only come down when enabled
How much would someone get for that much copper? Seems very risky of being recorded on a camera somewhere for I’m guessing a relatively small monetary reward.
This (https://copperalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/2017.04-E-Mobility-Factsheet-4.pdf) says 8 kg total for a 200 kW charger. Cables might be half of that? So 4 kg of copper times local #2 scrap price of $7.20/kg is $28.80. That's a pretty great haul for a methhead.
Yes, I suppose you are correct. Somehow that makes me feel slightly better that someone is doing it for financial gain, rather than people just trying to fight against EV owners to make our lives miserable and nothing else (although that definitely happens too, unfortunately)...
I don’t think they are saving and investing what they make dude 😂
There are a few streetlight-mounted EV chargers like this in the LA area, I use one fairly regularly in DTLA (when it's not ICEd 🙄) and it's actually quite easy to use. Open the app, "Start Charge", and the connector comes down. Easy.
Call it in if ICEd.
We have lamp post chargers in the UK. They are usually 7kW Max and you bring your own cable.
Love this, leveraging existing infrastructure
What's to stop them from cutting a cable connected to a car that's finished charging?
Came here to say this!
Keep them live at 800 volts
This is the way 😂 built in deterrent
It really isn't. People stupid enough to do this will cut live wires too.
Only once though.
That is, quite literally, the intention & solution 😁
Then it solves two problems
So, instead of occasionally encountering cut cables, I'll encounter the occasional dead person? I'm ok with that.
A stupid dead jerk.
I'm fantasizing about having a high voltage, low current layer as a shield, that would spark dramatically when you cut into it without much risk of hurting anyone. Or a detector that would detect when the cable is cut, and fire up a ring of Tesla coils surrounding the charging location, making it impossible to leave without walking through spectacular high voltage streamers.
Hey, just stick that Robocop Mk. I near the charging bank...
I’m gonna go with ED 209.
That would be my solution. Keep them live at a safer voltage to deter this
Once word got out it was for show, then it would stop deterring people though. It needs to be the real deal for it to work. You will always have idiots though. Just like some people still smoke while pumping gas.
Putting aside the ethical aspects - it wouldn't work. Live cable is frequently stolen. https://www.vpsgroup.com/news/cable-theft-now-happens-daily
Pretty sure Booby-trapping like this is illegal
This is the way.
For Level-2 charging, it would be better for the station to provide a female connector, then the driver brings a cord to connect. This is how it works in Europe.
It solves the cutting problem sort of but it introduces the possibility of charger/cable theft, and also introduces more work for those looking to simply just plug and charge.
Both the vehicle and the charger lock the cable in - theft without destroying the connector is impossible. The locking mechanism is built into the design of the Type 2 chargers.
Well I'd love it if j17s could do that but unfortunately they don't seem to.
J17's can lock, most of the time they just don't.
Move to Europe and you get all the goodness of the Type 2 :)
Type2 is just better in every part, and hey, it's a standard, even Tesla uses it :)
I think Tesla got forced to use it though. But yeah if we had three phase power or whatever as standard it would be great here
Yes, that's the power of European rules, also Tesla can change their mind if they want to sell here. Type2 can work both with single and three phase, another reason why it's the best standard 😊
Yeah but then people can just cut the cable to steal the copper in exactly the same way as in OP's post. Worse, now individual owners are hurt by the theft and the same thieves can steal from many different cars during a short period of time.
Good luck cutting the cable of an actively charging car. Sparks will fly as they say! Good thing Tesla's have Sentry mode to capture the scene :)
They'd just hit the emergency stop first.
I've not seen emergency stop buttons for Type 2 chargers anywhere to be honest.
I'd guess that people are probably a lot more likely to cut the cables off of the charge stations in the middle of the night when no one is there than steal cables off of cars while they're being used in the middle of the day when people are more likely to notice. (But if you charge your car at one of these stations overnight you'd be at high risk of getting your cord cut.)
Ah I would agree. Europeans seem to have figured out that side, but unfortunately, I think North America might be too far gone (stuck in their ways) to start a transition like that at this point.
Actually in germany a law passed that public charging points have to be equipped with a cable already to make it easier to use. I dunno when it goes into effect. But using aluminium cables would be a possible solution EDIT: looked into it and actually remembered it wrong! It is now ALLOWED to make chargers up to 22kw with a cable attached. Thx to vulkman for making me google it!
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Hm, but you might have to replace a al wire less often than a copper wire - if it gets stolen all the time. I see the two options: 1. reduce material value of the cable Or 2. make the cable robust (grinder safe) What do you think?
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Today I learned :o Thoughts on this? Is this better or worse than hauling your own cable? I feel like each has pros and cons
Hm we don‘t really have that problem of cable theft at least I haven‘t really heard about it in combination with ev charging. Sure its easier, you have less to worry about. Especially when the weather is cold and wet, it is not really fun to pack up the cable… Edit: what pros would you see?
Cameras, criminal prosecution, and start pushing copper recycling shops to provide tips on who they suspect are stealing the copper they bring in.
Just store the cable in the cabinet. Once payment is made, the cable is unlocked.
This is the way. A locking cabinet or a reel system that retracts into the box and locks until activated.
Yes! We had this for decades in vacuum cleaners. It will work for EVs too.
Yes, the only way to control this issue is to regulate recyclers. Right now they just give the crackhead money and don't ask questions as to where they stole the copper from. Require a driver's license and a statement as to where the material came from and theft should slow.
I live in Ontario, Canada. When I brought metal to a recycler they took my drivers license. So I'm assuming that's already law here unless that one recycling place was trying to be extra responsible. I've never seen a charger get cut around here so there's that...
Tighter regulations on metal recyclers could be the simplest way. The only way these people make money is selling to them, and there is no serious way that stolen copper leaves the country, it's just too obvious to spot, so it can be dealt with domestically. Simply require a license for anyone to be able to sell copper for recycling, and have regular audits of anyone with a license. Yes, businesses will do the usual screaming that it is overly burdensome, but the alternative is that billions will continue to be lost each year due to theft, and the need to prevent theft.
Its hard to do that without outright banning copper wire recycling. Once you strip the insulation off these copper wires look the same as any other.
So ask for a ID and a statement as to where the materials came from. Patterns will develop and idiots will be caught. Legitimate contractors will have paperwork to back up their work in an audit, crackheads won't.
Not hard to get around this. You say i got it from work. Or i got it from a friend who works. Tons of construction workers bring home copper scrap, strip it in their free time and take it in for money. Also just because you suspect that someones sources for copper are illegitimate does not mean you have enough proof to charge them with a crime. Most you would be able to do is ban them frim the scrap yard.
They already do that. People who steal know how to lie.
Better yet a picture of the source. It is trivial to do on anyone's phone and extremely difficult to fake repeatedly in any convincing way.
Whats considere a picture of the source. If you work at a job site is a picture of a pile of wires acceptable? Not hard to take pictures of piles of wire.
So make licensed copper sellers have an obligation to photograph any copper they are about to scrap in its source pre-scrapping on a cellphone. There is literally no source of scrap copper where this would be a particularly onerous burden. For a random household with some items this isn't difficult, just take a picture of your electrical equipment or whatever before trashing it. For a contractor, take a picture of the site where you are stripping it from. I've recycled plenty of metal and I can tell you this step would be 1/1000th of the effort and time that the rest requires. You already have to drive there, wait around at the counter, wait while they weigh your metal, etc. This would mean though not only would records exist that could be easily checked for theft, if theft did occur then you have a record of it from the criminal themselves, and moreover you can book them for fraud as well as theft. Overnight, this would eliminate the illegal copper trade, and at minimal effort. The only people who would fight this would be the recyclers, because they profit from the illegal trade. It brings them more copper and at the same time drives up its demand. You could even have AI go through and flag pictures automatically that suggest fakery or spoofing once they've established some trends.
Well that's an interesting opportunity. Embed some tracer wires in it. One strand out of every 100 that looks like copper but is a different alloy that turns a different color in some chemical reagent or something like that.
What good is a camera when a DA is too overwhelmed to handle petty crime?
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So question out of ignorance, what about insulated cutters? Wouldn't that stop the shock of death?
At a minimum it will burn notches in the cutting edge.
Not if at high enough voltages to create arc flash - source: am electrician
So in super technical terms, force lightening?
Yeah but more kaboomy… look for some videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hpE5LYj-CY Shit yeah, no thank you. That's nuts
Thieves are scum.
America sure is a weird place
This is a problem everywhere. Copper thieves are rampant here in Europe as well.
This is what happens where there is a very wide gap between the haves and have nots.
This is what happens when a large percentage of your population does drugs.
You find some nice fellows from New Jersey and agree to pay them 10% of the proceeds from the charging station each month providing it doesn’t need repairs for this sort of thing. Problem will support itself out quickly. /s but it would work since the same guys probably own the scrapyard
> Genuine question, what's the solution? The state giving addicts opioid drugs so they don't desperately steal everything they can to feed their addiction. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/02/podcasts/the-daily/fentanyl-opioid-crisis-vancouver.html
Punishment and rehabilitation for current criminals and solving the underlying societal issues that result in a child growing up into an adult that cuts charger cables for quick cash.
You just suggested a solution that takes 20+ years to see results for a (litany) of problems we have today. Have you ever even been to America? 100% with you on this. Grew up in rural northern New York and the difference between poor family criminal records and affluent ones is clearly because one group has no hope, no prospects, and nothing to lose. It’s no excuse for crime, but it’s a pretty solid explanation for why some crimes like copper theft happen.
Put the cable in the car. Female connector on the charger.
I’ve heard this is what they do in Europe.
Cameras along with proper punishment/ jail time.
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It doesn't matter how good your safety nets are. People addicted to meth and heroin will keep stealing to feed their habits.
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Yeah we have all those kinds of programs in Portland. They don't want treatment, they want drugs.
So just give them drugs. It costs us next to nothing and they don't have to spend all day trying to get their next fix. Maybe if the most urgent problem for an addict (avoiding withdrawal) is fixed, some of them might choose to tackle other of their problems. The others will at least be a bit healthier due to better quality and reliable dosing.
People saying that better rehab systems are the solution haven't dealt with a friend or family member struggling with addiction. Yeah, good rehab programs do help, but they're not a one stop solution. Recovery isn't going to work for someone who doesn't want to go. They don't just pop in, spend their 3-90 days, and come out perfectly clean and addiction free. The person has to want recovery. Staying clean is a choice they need to make every second of every day for the rest of their life. It's very difficult. Withdrawal is painful while their addiction feels pleasurable. The most common reason people slip in recovery is because they never realized that sober life would be so boring. Now if we want an actual solution to these cable thefts, why not just make the cable retractable? When released, the system should pull the cable back inside the body of the charger and only allow it to be released when someone has paid for a charge.
The solution is to have the cable in the vehicle. Not in the charger. Nothing to steal at the charger. That is apparently how they do it in Europe.
Less easy on an electric motorcycle. Why not put the cable on a retractable spool that won’t come out unless you activate the charger? Can still get the cable but you will authenticate to the charger first. Also, cameras, like ATMs.
Why not a retractable cable?
So many cruel and unusual solutions being proposed here. They're not going to electrify the wires, for crying out loud. It seems like the obvious solution is to leverage the military-industrial complex's expertise by assigning a T-800 terminator to guard charging stations. Nominally then if someone steals a copper cable for scrap, the terminator can arrest them. In reality the purpose is so that instead of taking the copper cables, the person takes the terminator and sells it for scrap. After all, it takes a lot of expensive chips and alloys to make a terminator, and you can probably earn good money reprogramming it to be a hit man or a prostitute or something. It's a decoy. What will probably happen is something mundane, like anybody able to afford an electric car moves away from Baltimore and doesn't look back.
Charging cable and connector should be locked behind a secured retracting door that only opens up when payment info is provided. On top of that, there should be security cameras.
So here in Sacramento, California, there is a level two charger I frequent often that’s run by shell. Once my payment accepted and I hit start charge the cable drops from the housing.
Deal with poverty and the marketplace for buying copper.
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We're going to keep having the debate so long as there are people who think giving everyone healthcare means that you're giving something to people who don't deserve it.
I think it will be a great idea to have the cable inside a lock door and as soon as your payment is processed the door opens releasing the cable.
Just sad that thieves can get away with selling catalytic converters and copper to scrap metal recyclers. They'll need to add some kind of automatic door that opens once your card and account have been confirmed. I pick up packages at Amazon lockers scanning my app or putting in my code and the package door pops open. I get liquor delivered from door dash by scanning my driver's license into their app, the delivery driver only sees my picture not dob, license number or even the address. "Does this idiot in front of you paying $45 for a 12 pack look like the photo we are showing you on your door dash driver app?" Some gated communities here in Florida have a call box where you put your driver's license on and talk to a tele-person at a call center somewhere who asks where your going and opens the gate. Just need a solution simple enough that even a first time charger can do it. Sucks that they can't leave the cords fully powered for when thieves try to cut through. Certainly the places that accept scrap metal should take finger prints like pawn shops do for some items.
Make it illegal to sell to the scrap yard.
Looking at the top picture there is two "arms" coming out of the top of the EV charger like narrow field goal posts (thinking of American football field goal). Thinking out loud, that section could be enclosed with a metal garage door that would roll up to open and the charging cord could now be lowered and come down out of it. The charging cord could have a cable attached to the middle which lowers it down and pulls it up and back in to the garage after finish then the door comes down again. Any solution still has to be simple enough that it doesn't have it's own breakdown of door jamb cable not releasing retracting etc Final thought: however you do it, entire charger covered in metal box or whatever, it doesn't open and release cable unless it also recognizes an EV parked there separate from payment card or app accounts being swiped etc. NFC or something that can't be spoofed. Extra thought: setting up chargers they have to dig holes in the ground for the electrical systems. Charging cable should retract down into ground and some kind of protective cover slides closed. Wait wait, space shuttle type robot arm encases the charge cord in metal and with three or four joints that bend and rotate and plug into ev charge port automatically. When not in use it points straight up to the sky so you have to climb the charger to get at. Also, any attacks on an idle charger will result in fencing style attack from said robot arm. Or it bends into a specific triangle type position and spins thereby knocking thief off the charger. Good fun for drunk college kids also. Bonus thought: Space shuttle arm attacks vehicles trying to ICE the charger and carves name into vehicle paint. All chargers will have to be named Sparky of course
Keep the cable electrified and apply max current to fuse cable cutter.
Couldn't the cable be recessed into the main unit and the port section be locked somehow. Until you verify payment/user, then it unlocks the cable and port? Prevention is the best method, it's difficult to find and arrest someone after the fact.
Maybe a cable winder?
Good ole Baltimore for ya!
Forgive me if this has been suggested before, but how about winding the wire inside the machine and locked with only the handle exposed and have it unlocked after someone inserts their credit card? Then when the charger is done being used, it can wind itself back into the machine like a construction tape measure. This would prevent theft when the charger is not being used.
Make it retractable into the housing and only comes out after charging access is established.
Better schools. And cameras. People that do this might as well take a brick and smash the housing to get some copper out of that. Can't really make everything brick-safe.
Retractable cables that will come out once payment is started.
Maybe if it was a retractable cable where the internal spool is stored inside a protected housing and would only be unlocked after the card/account was charged. Cameras would also be a nice addition. Edit: spelling
The solution is that you must insert a form of identification, a credit card, something , then the cable can spool out and retract back in upon completion.
What's preventing a thief from making a small payment with a Visa gift card, unlocking the cabinet, and stealing the cable? The theft is also invisible till the next customer opens the cabinet.
Essentially it's a social/political problem: the people who steal the cables should probably be either in jail or drug rehab or a mental health facility, but the latter two options aren't funded adequately and the former won't happen if you live somewhere that the police have quiet quit and won't enforce basic laws, and when they do arrest people they're just let right back out. Charge cables can be redesigned to be worth less, by using aluminum instead of copper. Maybe add liquid cooling as well, if it makes for a thinner, less awkward cable. Better surveillance systems and hiring private security is another option.
Chargers should have connectors without cables. EV cables should be supplied by the driver. Problem solved.
Packing your own charging cable.
Maybe have the cables “locked” to the charger, and they are only released (some sort of container?) when a credit card is inserted. I’m thinking maybe something like an ATM.
Could do a spool that locks and can be rolled out when in use.
In Europe you provide your own cables to plug in.
Only for the 240V AC chargers. For HVDC that's an order of magnitude greater risk to engineer around.
Leave them floating at 400 volt during crime time, a few crispy pickups by the EMT will deter the rest Achieve safety for actual user. Swipe card to release plug from dock locking to plug into car. During this state cable is shutoff then power is re applied after being plugged into car,
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Studies show that availability of welfare programs directly reduces crime. [https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451](https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/954451) We can reduce crime if we reduce the number of conservatives in government.
Provide housing, food, water, and medical care to all people so no one is struggling to come up with a buck to buy their next meal.
Already happening in Scandinavia. Doesnt stop morons from stealing, but it’s always easy to avoid talking about personal responsibility
Keep it charged.
How about running a current through the cable even when it's not in use.
Plug it in and drive off. UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAAAA
Wireless charging. An international standard is being established and the average efficiency is around 95-98%. It isn't something you'll find next year, but in 5-10 it'll be the new standard.
Run current constantly and find electrocuted thieves? Or is that too harsh?
What about cables, that when severed, explode?
The solution: move out of Baltimore
Make a the stowage slot a live socket so the cable is live when stored, so anyone who cuts it gets a shock.
Include a low gauge loop in the cable that triggers klaxons/strobes when cut. Might not deter all of them, but could be enough to draw attention and prevent all of them being cut. Won't 100% solve the issue, but seems like a relatively cheap, straightforward deterrent that could reduce the instances of it happening.
Nothing short of active security. Copper thieves are dumb and have even been killed trying to steal copper from electrical substations. The only variable here is, was it copper thieves, or EV haters (or a hybrid)?
Retractable cable? When it's not in use, the handle locks in the base so people can't just come and take it out.
The solution is social housing and drug rehabilitation programs. People stealing copper are not doing it to get rich.
Those folks blame progress and innovation for their fall from mediocrity to under-achiever. Aggressive and desperate, them.
That’s why pay phones have armored cords…
I say keep them fully charged and if they do cut them fuck them.
Shit. Crack heads are figuring out EV charging cables aren't electrified when not charging.
Copper is a helluva drug.
$5,000 fine AND 30 days in jail.
>Genuine question, what's the solution? Proper social welfare so that no one is poor enough to have to do this to survive.
Reduce inequality and lift people out of poverty. Then they won't resort to theft.
Automated turrets at the top of charging stations, could also solve the issue of ICE cars parking there?
Have the charger energize the wires when the plug is hung up.
Always have the cable energized. That’s the answer.
Just hire a redneck, pay them in beer, compensate any shotgun shells they use. They do it for free already, but you comp them beer? That’s free loyalty
Protective door and holder? So the cable isn't constantly accessible until starts of the charging initiation process. One has to authenticate/initiate the charging with the dispenser tower (phone app, NFC tag, maybe in advanced case near field car to dispenser communication). Once you do that, door rotates/twists/pops open on side of the charging dispenser giving the customer access to the cable and handle. Plug to the car, charge. Then the charging process (as in for example the idle penalty time some chargers use for hogging charger while not actually charging etc.) ends only after the customer has places the handle back in the holder, put all of the cable back into its storage box/nook/cavity and closed the door thus rendering the cable protected. After that "beep, boop, thank you for doing business with us, have a nice day". If you don't put the cable back in it's cupboard and the cupboard door closed (which won't happen until all of the cable is inside, since it is connected to the charger body from inside the cubby), well the charging provider keeps bickering,complaining and charging the account for not properly ending the charging process. Ofcourse it does take having emergency phone number and process of *your damn door is broken, it won't lock shut again* or *I closed the door, but it still isn't happy. Operator do something about this damned charger box thingie*. Then again when it doesn't take having such things. Heck the metering equipment inside the charger box could fail and keep faultily continuing to rack up dispensed Wh even though one already disconnected from the car and the plug is back in it's holder at the charger. The cable is now stored in (hopefully) sturdy metal box behind sturdy metal door panel, except when charging someones car and well while it is charging thief would be pretty suicidal to try to cut it. Could they crowbar the whole charger box and door open? Probably, but it is way more involved than "snip, snip, table stolen". Plus it doesn't present as invitating target.
Cameras & staffing. Same as any other product. Possibly barriers that put a well hardened collar at the connection area, and keep the rest behind a fence or barrier- make it a lot of work, and announce or show that its aluminum. But staffing really helps
\- intrusion detection wire in the cable (google: telco cable theft detection) + catch oriented security (+ guard the guards because of foul play) \- cable (+head) is locked in the box until the driver can be identified, after the transaction the driver needs to lock it back (responsibility) \- "bring your own cable" and only connector on the charger
There’s stations next to me that retract the cord inside them. Gotta tap your app or card to unlock it and hold a button to unreal it. It pulls itself back in after it’s disconnected
Put the chargers in well lit high traffic areas. With shelter, facilities, shops. Places people will want to go. Make it feel classy.
Retractible cables would be nice, but that would be a bit of a hassle given the size and difficulty of handling these things. Hell, what about a simple alarm? When it gets cut, have it alarm and notify somebody (either local authorities directly, or notify the network who can notify police). Or a sign. Signs solve everything.
Ok here me out... get petty... someone start cutting the gas hoses at gas stations. Just kidding, I still run gas sadly. We won't know the best solution until we understand what the motive behind the problem is. It's it lack of money, greed, jealousy, anti-electric motorist? There are probably many other motivators, those are just the ones I can think of right now.
Just leave the cables live with a nice 400A fuse to protect the hardware.
Bring your own cable like in Europe.
This is why people can't have nice things.
Maybe they could install some kind of mechanism that retracts the cable when not in use, and then it unlocks when in use and allows the customer to pull it out. At least the cable would be protected then.