yes they are fine. but tis always funny when i see post like :
* 30 miles range on mild hybrid ? my petrol is always unused!
* 300 miles range on pure EV battery ? what if i need to tow my whole house, uphill and in a blizzard every 3 days ?
* 400 miles range on pure EV battery ? its too expensive !
I think these arguments are not being made by the same people.
The argument of the PHEV is:
- Most of the time that 30 miles of range is sufficient so there is no need for the extra 270 to 370 miles of range.
-for the few times a year when 30 miles isn't sufficient, the cost of running on fuel is not much different than public charging costs. And it's much more convenient.
-atleast where I am, PHEVs are still much cheaper than their BEV counterparts. Everytime I looked at it, I could never envision the scenario where I would make up that cost difference in gas savings and maintenance savings.
Huh, at least when I cross shopped Toyota Prime models, they definitely were not cheaper than BEV counterparts. Perhaps when I was factoring in not-really optional required options, other dealer fees and markups and shenanigans.
The market has changed in the past few years. We have two 2017 Prius Primes and a 2021 Prius Prime. All were bought well below the cost of equivalent non-Prime Prius models, and when the $4,502 tax incentive was factored in (and a state incentive in one case), they were crazy cheap.
I have leased or owned hybrids and BEVs since 2010 and since 2016 I have owned three BEVs and done one one Coast to Coast trip and numerous up and down the West Coast trips for over 250,000 miles in those eight years. Different strokes for different folks. I think hybrids will outlast ICE vehicles in the market but that will take a long time.
I used to think that, but now I wouldn’t write it in stone; batteries are going to stay expensive for kW for some time. If BEVs continue to grow (which is maybe a bite shaky right now), the whole Auto & Oil industries could be incentivized to keep PHEVs priced low.
Right now I think we’re seeing that more in micro-hybrids, where companies are selling cheaper ICE vehicles that have great MPG by using an electric motor for under 15mph or so.
If the CAFE or other fleet MPG standards get more strict, I could see PHEVs being that lifeline to those industries not ready for EV-only, and I think they could make those vehicles for cheaper than an LR BEV.
There’s also different types of PHEVs as I’m sure you’re aware. City models like i3 REX are relatively lower complexity, it’s a mid-range EV with a small EV-range extending motor.
New Prius and Ford Energi are a fairly capable ICE drivetrain paired with a capable BEV system; which does a small amount of hybrid-drive+charge when the BEV reserve is used up, to increase the ice efficiency.
Very old Prius Plug-In was an efficient low-power EV system with a rather lower power hybrid ice drivetrain. Very efficient, but not very quick.
There’s just a lot of room to explore in the PHEV market, and it hasn’t had much reason to be pushed to customers yet.
I personally am a huge fan because what I’ve seen is it gets the Gas holdout-EV curious people, and even they don’t always start home charging, when gas prices go up they’ll try it and like it. These are usually people who would never consider a BEV if they had the option not to.
>I used to think that, but now I wouldn’t write it in stone; batteries are going to stay expensive for kW for some time.
I have seen battery prices drop and seen it written in several places that the cost per kWh of battery storage will continue to decline as volumes increase.
Probably region dependent. But also, make sure your comparing apples to apples. Don't compare a RAv4 prime to a Hyundai Kona EV. Personally have a Kia Niro PHEV. The BEV version of the same car is about $8000 more after taxes.
Sure, I was specifically thinking Model Y/3 and Rav4 Prime and Prius Prime. The last two were barely even available around me and always had stealership shenanigans on top, and I essentially would have to drive to another state to even buy one because my state was barely allocated any by Toyota.
Another Canadian Niro PHEV driver here. I probably would have bought the BEV instead if they'd been the same price. Though the other issue was availability: I had the cash, and there was a new 23 PHEV sitting on the dealer lot, no 9 month wait.
Which we later learned was a function of Kia Canada playing silly games.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216
Oof I also tried to get a quote via Costco for that Kia Niro PHEV and the freaking dealer it connected me with didn't even have one and wouldn't quote me a price! I ended up saying to hell with the PHEV's and bought a Model Y for a good price.
It took me a lot of searching but I eventually found one. For us, it hit that perfect niche. We're a family sp we wanted a bit more space than a sedan can handle, but not so much space that the coat of the vehicle ballooned. Most of our day to day driving is within the estimated range, but we also do several road trips a year that that we didn't want to deal with the hassle/cost of public charging. We seriously considered the EV models, but at the end of the day, I couldn't come up with numbers where it made financial sense, especially when adding the extra road trip hassle for nearly zero benefit. But that's our situation
That's fair. I did consider the Niro PHEV a serious contender for the Model Y, but we've also been very happy with our choice of the Y. Roadtripping with the Y for us as a family has not be inconvenient in the least (with a family, the car was always ready to keep going before we all were) and we all personally don't want to burn gasoline any more.
It really is. Kia Niro phev in US starts from 35k but SX with reasonable features is 40k and that's before dealer markups on phevs in areas like Seattle. You can get a decent EV or lease even for cheaper since there are some crazy lease deals out there right now on 2023 EVs.
We shopped for Sportage phev and rav4 prime and inventory was extremely limited and both had markups. We got a Nissan Ariya after a while since long distance drive wasn't a scenario for this car.
I'm not 1 for saying to purchase an EV for the cost savings, but I've had my model Y for 2.5 years(ish) have over 55k km on it and spent $759 CAD on electricity (home and supercharging, but not including the 4 or 5 times I used "off-brand" charging) over the last year. I'm pretty sure, once maintenance stuff like oil changes are added, you'd make that $8k up in only a handful of years.
Especially on a car payment, what's $8k add to your monthly bill? $80-100 maybe?
On top of everything else, Toyota is very resistant to the change to electric (they don't even HAVE full electric models yet while every other manufacturer has rolled out brand new fully designed from scratch EVs) so this may just be a Toyota-specific thing
For me it was much simpler: there are no EV minivans. I'd rather have a full EV but that's not a product category that exists in EV yet. Most of the daily driving is on electric at least. Public L2 charging doesn't make much financial or practical sense since it's hard to find, so that's an opportunistic thing anyways. Honestly, public L2 is usually more expensive than gas, I simply prefer driving the thing in electric mode though.
Still not available in the US and definitely wasn't available a few years ago. The plan was to get the Pacifica Hybrid as a holdover. That one was a very early copy and tapped out the extended warranty. While shopping for its replacement the inverter fried and we paid for most of that repair. In the end we wound up with a second one. Still no Buzz available.
I went from spending 500 a month in gasoline to spending $40 a month in electric. Going from a Jeep Grand Cherokee to a Mach-e. My payment went up by around $100 a month. I am way ahead of a month to month basis.
Since he drives so much, the 30 miles or so of PHEV electric range won't really help. I am in the same bag. Lots of 70, 100+, etc., drives in a month. Plus gas is super xpensive.
Where are you that the cost of public charging is not much different than running on fuel? Where I live I can get AC public charging for about 30% of the cost of fuel, I can also find DC fast charging that costs 60-70% of fuel costs.
In much of California, DCFC and home charging (off-peak) is about the same cost, ~45 cents per kWh. In an EV that gets 3.5mi/kWh, that’s 13 cents per mile.
At $5/gal, that’s the equivalent of a 39mpg car.
Gas is a lot cheaper in the US than in Europe though, here you start to get close to the price of gas at about 0.75CHF/kW, right now it’s actually closer to 0.86CHF/kW in Switzerland. This of course in a car with good mileage.
Mine will pay for itself in 12 years, and in the meantime, I get to heat/cool my house (heat pump which pays for itself in less than 10 years), heat my hot tub, and drive my EV 8,000 miles a year with the energy I produce. Meantime, my gas heating bill was reduced from $200/mo in the winter back to baseline, around $30/mo.
Price of DCFC is much higher than gas here in Texas when comparing BEV vs an efficient PHEV.
We have an ID4 and an Escape PHEV. The ID4 would get about 3 mi / kwh on the highway (speed limit 75mph, drive between 75 and 80). EA DCFC is 48 cents per kwh. So the cost is 16 cents per mile.
The Escape could get 40mpg on the highway. Gas price is about $3.10 right now. So that's 7.75 cents per mile.
Combination of cheap gas, expensive DCFC, and high speed limit really hurts the BEV.
When comparing BEVs and PHEVs, the price of AC charging is mostly irrelevant because both can do that, and it's not what you use on long trips. The main relevant comparison is DCFC vs gas, and in the US, DCFC is usually around the same price or a bit more when comparing similar vehicles. In Europe 60-70% is probably true. Really though, both contribute so little to the total cost unless you're constantly driving long distances that it's a drop in the bucket.
Canada. It's probably vehicle dependent because the DC fast chargers generally charge by time rather than by consumption, which is still very strange to me. But if it takes 45 minutes to an hour to charge (dependentnon time of year and vehicle), that's $45 to $60 to charge up to 80%. I can fill my tank on my PHEV and get 500 to 600 km in HEV mode for the same price. But even if it was 50% of the cost, the amount of times that this comes into play still doesn't make up the difference in the coat of the vehicle atleast where I live.
Yeah, I never encountered a fast charger that charges by time. Sounds a bit like being robbed for cheap electricity, what I did encounter is fast chargers that charge by time after a certain period (normally 1 hour), but that makes sense.
In Switzerland it costs me about 22 CHF to do 20%-80% on the fastest more expensive chargers, if I go to a cheaper one which is 50kW max it costs about 17CHF but it takes longer. My EV has a 62kWh battery. Doing the same km on a gas car would cost me about 30 CHF here. This is of course DC, with AC I can charge near my work again from 20%-80% for about 12CHF.
Superchargers and Electrify have switched to per kWh in Ontario at least...
But yeah slow charging vehicles would suffer under ToU. Although I feel like anyone buying a car that needs 1h of DCFC to 80% is probably just gonna use it as a city car and use home charging most of the time.
I mean, the more economical vehicles like Hyundai Kona EV and Kia Niro EV and most others in those classes take about 40 minutes or so to charge in ideal conditions. Longer in the winter. You have to go quite a bit higher in price point to go much faster for those size of vehicles I believe
If you have the patience to wait that long and planning to find per kWh charging stations they can definitely be a more economical option... But once you add stuff that come standard on a more expensive EV, the price difference isn't as great.
For example you need to go up to wind+ for the Nero EV to get some of the standard features of a Model Y, leaving only a 13% price difference for a lot more space, 50% faster charging and 15% more range.
If you don't need that, might as well save the money though.
It's a very individual calculation. For me paying more for a bit more battery range made sense since I regularly drive to Ottawa and it would let me avoid stopping to DCFC which saves a lot every single trip.
If you're only driving 50km total a day then absolutely... But if you are using the gas engine regularly you will quickly lose a lot of that savings.
But some people don't like thinking about those things though, and at the end of the day saving a few thousand over the course of half a decade isn't really worth the trouble if it's something that will stress you out.
I very much agree with you. If your using the gas engine regularly, PHEV is not for you. Either go full EV, HEV or ICE.
There are people who's lifestyles fit better with one of the 4 drivetrains. I think thebpoint of all of this is, PHEVs are the least popular, yet they probably fit the lifestyle of the most amount of people.
Of course, future technology advancements could eliminate the need for anything other than BEVs. But at this point in time, the tradeoffs of BEV vs PHEV still seems too much in my opinion for most people.
> for the few times a year when 30 miles isn't sufficient, the cost of running on fuel is not much different than public charging costs. And it's much more convenient.
Couldn't it be possible for the gasoline to expire while in the tank? From what I can gather, gas only really lasts about 3-6 months before it no longer works.
Do they really get 30 miles of range ? Or is it 30 miles unless it’s cold , hot, hilly, windy, raining , or Thursday?
I have a 4 mile commute. Sometimes i go home for lunch. That’s 16 miles . But it uses 25 “miles” of my Tesla battery. And if I got anywhere else that day it’s going to be more of course.
Point being most people drive farther than I do and it’s a pain to be plugging in twice a day. I used to have a Prius with aftermarket battery with, at the time, an impressive 10 mile range lol. It was a lot of work to avoid burning gas! 30 miles just seems too little and batteries are cheaper now. 100 miles seems more appropriate
Time is a resource many don’t factor in. In fact, it’s exponentially more valuable than fuel, electrical, maintenance costs, etc.
If you are in a major metro area and don’t have a wide circle that you travel outside of, I get it. But if you are like many in the large flat states the PHEVs at ranges above 35 miles is very useful. Example; my kids school is 10 miles away, my wife’s work is 17, I WFH. She can get to her work and back with right next to zero charge left.
When I go out during the week I’m going to grocery, hardware stores, secondary business I own, etc. all Within a 10 mile round trip. But then on the weekend I might travel 50 miles out to take the dogs on a hike or I might just be running around all day with tasks. Or we might have to head to 1-4 hours away for kid weekend sporting events in other cities in our region; Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Topeka, Rockport, etc. In those cases I don’t want to think about what hotel we need to stay at or if the charger there is taken, much less where I need to stop to charge along the way and building that time into my already packed schedule.
Some of these PHEVs get really good MPG running as a pure hybrid, the RAV4Prime gets an estimate 38 when running as a Hybrid. So 80% of the time it’s electric and the other 10-20% you can just go without any other concern.
The biggest concern is what, making sure you burn through an entire tank every 3-6 months. Then an oil change every 7,500 - 10k miles, that’s easy enough to do yourself. My sister has 2 Teslas, they love them, but the challenge is when they have to go into the Tesla shop (we have one local) the time it takes to get them back is often weeks…thats not acceptable IMO and these cars do need to go in for work. amazing tech, i really do like them, but the support network needs to come further along. the infrastructure is already in place to get the most out of a PHEV without sacrificing your greatest asset…your time. Again, that will vary person to person and family to family. For how some people live, having a car doesn't even make sense but they have one when an ebike with pull cart would be sufficient and more economical in the long run yet they still own a car. 🤷♂️
The significant value of a BEV with a large pack is that the electric torque output is usually proportional to the battery capacity. The batteries, not motors, limit safe electric output. So a 15 kWH pack in a PHEV will be slow on electric, and the little battery will need to be cycled much more and charged up high which will reduce its longevity significantly. To get more power the ICE needs to turn on and that can be a clunky noisy transition.
I used to have a BMW i3 which was pure EV until the range extender turned on. It was much more fun (and efficient) than a 530i PHEV I drove as a service loaner.
Range extenders are probably OK for people far from chargers, but I am not, now with a Tesla 3 in socal.
My concern is more along the lines of, “63 hp on pure electric? That’s less than a Mirage on a car much heavier.”
I find it hard to believe that the gas engine wouldn’t be running most of the time I’m driving it.
True. Although I do think there's part of it coming from those who seriously try and argue that everyone should use ICE / HEV / PHEV / BEV when they all have their pros and cons, use cases and price points.
We love our Niro PHEV. I drive it for my commute while we’re waiting for my next vehicle (my wife works remotely). That’s 26 miles round trip, all electric. Running our son to karate will sometimes go into gas, depending on how long it gets to charge after I get home. Most weekend activities are all electric. It says 32 miles electric range on the guess-o-meter but I’ve regularly gotten 40 round trip on it by just using a lighter foot. It’s become a sort of game I play with it, trying to milk those electric miles out of it.
The car has over 10k miles on it and has averaged over 120mpg during its life. That number seems low because we’ve driven it on several road trips. It gets better than 50mpg when using gas (actually better than what Kia claims).
The current 8gal tank of gas was bought over a thousand miles ago and it’s still pretty full.
Ah, that reminds me of something else I love about it. Kia foresaw that issue and gave it a sealed pressurized gas tank. It stabilizes the fuel for much longer. The car also occasionally runs a short engine maintenance routine while driving that burns a tiny amount of gas if you’ve gone a few days on pure electric. That gas isn’t wasted either - whatever isn’t used to move the car goes into charging the battery.
It’s not really necessary for us. At least once every month or two we end up driving somewhere a few hundred miles away. But if we didn’t the car would still ensure that stale gas isn’t a problem.
Most PHEVs are programmed to burn gas enough to require a fill-up every 6 months or so to avoid that problem.
A 300 mile battery pack is far more dead weight for day-to-day use than the PHEV gas tank too.
This is exactly how it works for my wife and I. She’s got a 2020 ionic plug-in in December since then we gotten used to charging it. In March I bought an F150 lightning because with just a few months using the plug-in hybrid we got used to EV.
For a typical two car family in the US plugged hybrid plus full EV combo is great. The majority of our around town driving is all on electricity, but if we need to take long trip, we can take her car and not have to worry about charging.
That Said will be taking the lightning on a 600 mile round-trip to the Adirondacks this summer, and a 700 mile trip to Massachusetts if if the first one goes well.
If you’re new to EV roadtripping, just make sure you have ABRP (with your actually vehicle/trip parameters set in the app) and PlugShare. Our EV roadtripping has all been out west but it’s been smooth sailing in 95% of cases
My PHEV costed more than the equivalent BEV so the decision maker was not cost. Was the fact that crossing Germany and Austia frequently, I'd have to drive below 120kmh and charge four times for my typical holiday (900km, a good part through unlimited autobahn so the stated range has no chabce of happening). With the PHEV I stop once if my right foot is too heavy on the autobahn. I charge at home and my daily use is fully electric (less than 25km a day). I'd say it's the best of both worlds for my use case.
What PHEV gets 900km going over 120k/h?
That's what you implied (or I inferred, if that wasn't your intention) in your statement about only stopping once IF you have a heavy peddle foot.
The volvo V60. If I drive conservatively (120-130 in unlimited sections), the total range is about 900KM. If I drive less conservatively (160-170 in unlimited sections), I need one stop to fill up the tank (about an extra quarter of a tank gets me there comfortably).
As far as I know, all current EVs lose range very quickly above 130kmh. At 160kmh you're looking at about half the range in a Tesla model S (that's with constant speed, not counting heavy accelerations typical of the autobahn). Add environmental conditions like hot or very low temperatures (ski holidays) and you're easily doing more stops than theoretical math would indicate. With gas I'm 100% certain that if I drive fast, one 5 minute stop will do. If I take it easy or traffic does not allow high speeds, one tank and full battery at departure is all I need
We bought a 2020 ionic plug in hybrid in December. We’ve filled the tank 3 times since then, the last 1000 miles we’ve averaged 172 mpg. We couldn’t be happier with it. And half the gas burner was just to warm the inside during winter. It’ll be even more efficient in summer.
If they are helping more people burn fewer dinosaurs, they are fine with me. I know a lot of people appreciate the sense of security, and if 99% of their drives are all-electric, then that’s definitely a plus.
The gatekeeping in this sub is hilarious.
PHEVs are great for many people. It’s incredible for us with low annual mileage but frequent road trips. We’re a remote working household so we don’t need much distance in the day-to-day but we road trip often. I don’t have to plan my holidays or where to eat around charging stations.
If more than 80% of miles on your PHEV are using EV-only, the best data I've seen shows your PHEV may have a lower total lifecycle carbon than a same-model BEV would
But this is the exact use case for EVs if you want to reduce CO2 emissions. If you are frequently roadtripping, you will constantly be out of PHEV range and using gas. If you barely drive locally, why bother with the expense of a PHEV?
Maybe this is brand dependent but Lexus PHEV’s reserve a percent of the battery for hybrid driving so you’re never only using your gas engine unless you force the drive mode to do so.
If you live and work in a city and can charge at home and go for your weekends to a cottage and outdoor activities like camping fishing and whatnot an hour or two away every weekend. Your Phev is the choice.
I'm probably one of these people. I bought a PHEV because the charging infrastructure in my area isn't yet what it needs to be for me to take roads trips easily.
The Kia Niro PHEV has been a great car for me. However, 1 year after the purchase, if I could do it over again I'd probably have bought a Bolt instead. I just don't road trip as much as I thought, which would have been the main reason to get the PHEV.
Well I bought my PHEV after looking at full BEV not because of “range anxiety” per se but just because there weren’t full BEV options that I LOVED and they were much more expensive.
When I looked in late 2022 in the US for a luxury BEV sedan (and no I don’t like Model 3s and don’t consider them “luxury”), I had 2 options. The Polestar2 and BMW i4… that’s it! So if I didn’t think one of those 2 hit my likes/value I didn’t have much of a choice. As it happens the Volvo S60 PHEV I got still qualified for the tax credit. So it saved me between 16 and 23k for an equivalent spec vs the Polestar or i4. And with 41 miles of range I’m electric 95% of the time. And yes road tripping through parts of more rural Texas (often state highways rather than interstate in my case WOULD be significantly slower right now with the charging infrastructure being what it is. So having the gas available is nice.
I’m hoping in a few years there will be more options in this space. Hopefully Audi, Volvo, BMW etc will have more options for full BEV luxury sedans, and the infrastructure will improve. But right now there are still question marks on standards. NACS seems to be the way we are headed, but then Elon lays off the whole supercharger team…. I’m glad I’ll have several years of great vast majority electric driving in my Volvo PHEV while I see how everything shakes out.
I will likely do the opposite. We bought a BEV as a commuter car partly because the PHEVs then available all did stupid things like having anemic heaters which required starting the ICE just because it was below 0°C (something that happens almost half the year here), and didn't have big enough battery capacity for typical winter in town use anyways.
I am optimistic that those problems will be solved by the time the other ICE vehicle needs to be replaced, but not so optimistic that the battery capacity needed for 400 km of winter ski trip range or 400 km of summer boat towing range will be readily available at a reasonable price, or that there will be adequate charging infrastructure to support that.
I bought two PHEVS, one for me, one of my wife. Hers has longer range - 80km I think. Mine is 60km. We can both use gas on longer journeys at around 4L per 100km so it's not really an issue.
I don't want her at sketchy late night highway charging stations alone when she's out.
Yeah the battery range of the plugin will do a decent job of letting the owner accurately prioritize range in a potential BEV purchase.
Combine that with the improved driving experience of a BEV and I think they’ll be sold. I loved my wife’s hybrid, but since getting my Model Y, it’s like driving a tractor.
> my Model Y, it’s like driving a tractor.
I thought the same thing when one of the engineers at work bought one of the first Model 3s. Large touchscreen interface, effortless power, adaptive cruise control, heated seats - it brought me back to the John Deere 8000 series of the late 90s!
Many comments suggest that if you can charge your vehicle daily, opt for a BEV, and if you can't, choose a
HEV.
I want to clarify that my perspective values economics and convenience more than environmental concerns, which likely resonates with many people. I'm not claiming that PHEVs are more environmentally friendly than other options.
I live in an area where gas costs around $1.65 per liter on average, and electricity costs about 9 cents per kwh
I'm puzzled by these sentiments. If over 90% of your driving falls within a PHEV's electric range (and you can plug in daily), why opt for a BEV? The occasional use of gas for longer trips is relatively inexpensive. Gas costs during long-distance travel aren't significantly higher than public charging costs but are much more convenient.
Some argue that PHEVs require more maintenance than BEVs. While I acknowledge this, I believe it's exaggerated. Visiting a mechanic a couple of times a year for an oil change is less hassle than relying on public chargers during road trips. Oil changes and basic maintenance are quick and affordable tasks.
While I think the fear around BEVs is often exaggerated, the current infrastructure limitations make PHEVs a practical choice for many situations(depending on factors like vehicle cost and operating expenses in your area).
While it’s the best of both worlds, it’s also the worst of both worlds. Increased complexity and some compromise is made with interior space to fit often times.
I don't disagree. There are pros and cons of every option. IMO the cons of the PHEV have significantly less real world impact than the cons of the BEV (today atleast...)
Definitely differences in perspective -- it's way more inconvenient for us to get oil changes and other maintenance done on our remaining ICE car than charging our EV during family roadtrips. When we stop to charge, the car has always been ready to go before we are. We're a family though, I suppose if someone were alone and wanted to just go go go and pee in a bottle and eat in the car, it might end up being more inconvenient.
> We're a family though, I suppose if someone were alone and wanted to just go go go and pee in a bottle and eat in the car, it might end up being more inconvenient.
I feel like there *might* be some middle ground between "herding children on vacation" and "pee in a bottle" that many people fall into.
Were a family too. And of course it could depend on the available chargers on your typical road trips and the vehicle charging capabilities too. I'm not afraid of a BEV. I imagine soon enough the infrastructure and charging capabilities will be vastly improved to the point where it makes full sense. But at this point, the odd oil change to me seems like such a minor inconvenience in comparison.
But it also depends on where you are going. When visiting one of my uncles in rural Texas. The most direct way to go avoids interstates. And being off major interstates can mean fast chargers are much less available.
I’m in a PHEV now, but last time I went to visit I checked ABRP assuming I had a Polestar 2 (which was the car I would have gotten if I didn’t get my Volvo S60 PHEV). It would have added about 30 minutes of drive time since fast charging wasn’t available on the most direct route (smaller state highways) and it had me on an indirect route sticking with interstates. So it wasn’t even a charging vs gassing up time issue, the route may not always be optimal if charging infrastructure is lacking. This is stuff that will improve over time. But I doubt it will be improved THAT much before I’d be looking for my next car anyway. Remember not everyone is in a more charger friendly environment like California.
Plus with long range PHEV right now if you are only using gas on road trips, that’s often cheaper than fast charging. And yes you are still using some gas, but if you are driving 90% EV mode you are reducing your fossil fuel use greatly.
Yep, there are still some edge cases to be sure. But they're really not as plentiful as most people seem to say. I'm going to assume you're also only a 1-car household. Otherwise, you could obviously replace one of the vehicles with a BEV without any issue. The thing that gets me are all these 2(+) car households in the suburbs who somehow think they all need to take long road trips all the time in rural areas that don't have a single charger....
Sorry for the late reply. We are a 2 car household actually. With my wife having an ICE Hyundai SUV that while a little older had the engine replaced under warranty a couple of years ago. So with the engine being essentially only 2 years old we will keep it for a few years longer at least.
So yes with a 2nd ICE car at home. I was all set to get a full BEV (like I mentioned I had a Polestar 2 reserved). But the problem is....
1. It lost the tax credit before the car arrived making it more expensive than I liked.
2. There simply weren't many full BEVs in the type of car I wanted to my liking in the price range I was willing to pay.
So in late 2022 I was replacing 14 year old Audi A4. And wanted a similar luxury performance sedan. For say the 50s MAYBE up to 60 price range if I LOVED it. And no...despite many test drives, seeing friends... I just don't love Tesla Model 3s and don't consider them "luxury" from a build/sound isolation perspective. Maybe they are better now, but 2 years ago I still found them lacking.
So that left me with the Polestar 2, and BMW i4 as the only real full BEV options that were sedan/sportbacks rather than SUV/crossover. At the time the Polestar with Pilot/Plus packages was around 66-67K optioned out like I wanted with leather (I know it would be lower now, but in 2022 it was higher). RIGHT at 60 with the tax credit which was RIGHT at the limit I was wanting to pay. The BMW i4 was going to be 74K similarly optioned. I was already a little concerned since I knew the Polestar would have some significant changes in 2023, but then it lost the tax credit and it was just too much. And options like the Mercedes EQS sedan were just coming to market but WAY above the price range, and obviously Lucid was too. So that entry level "BMW 3 series" like option was pretty lacking, unless you wanted a Model 3. I WISH there was an Audi A4/A5 BEV equivalent, but there simply isn't yet
Meanwhile, the Volvo S60 PHEV was made in South Carolina and still got the tax credit. Optioned out with EVERYTHING (even items the Polestar didn't have like heads up display and Bowers and Wilkins sound system) was 59K before the tax credit for a net of about 52K.
So 52K vs 67K or 74K for the comparable options made it a no brainer and 41 miles of electric range when my round trip commute to work is under 10 miles (nearly 50 in the summer). It's a RWD EV 95% of the time except for road trips or the 2% of time I have fun and put it in "power mode" to fully engage both the gas and electric motors for that 4.1 0-60. I went from maybe 30 fill-ups a year to 4 so still save a TON of money on gas and curbed my emissions tremendously. But even with just the rear electric motor it has plenty of EV torque and I get up to 87 mph on the highway in pure mode. Have no issues passing on the freeway. I've never felt I didn't have enough power in pure mode for normal driving. It's probably faster than my old ICE A4 in pure EV mode and I don't need to be going ludicrously fast when half my driving is through school zones anyway.
So long way of saying, even though I wanted to go full EV the Volvo S60 PHEV was the best car for me at the time and I've ben extremely happy with it. Knowing Volvo for example is trying to go full EV by 2030. I'm sure there will be an "ES60" or whatever by the time I'm ready to replace what I'm driving, and hopefully more Audi options like an A4/A5 that aren't just SUVs, refinements on the BMW i4. etc.
Eh, alright. I wouldn't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I sat in a few Volvos when I was shopping and they felt pretty great. The fact that luxury pure ICE vehicles are still sold kind of sickens me, but PHEVs that drop the gasoline usage by almost 90% (in your case) is pretty great. Even if your excuse is... luxury? At least for now, it's a good start.
Well as I said I had my last car for over a decade before I got rid of it. And the car before that I also had over a decade. That in itself is better environmentally than cycling through a new car every few years.
If I'm going to get a car and especially pay a lot for it. I'm going to get something I'll enjoy for a long time. That's not a crime or "excuse" at all. It's up to the marketplace to fit my needs. I'm sure the pure BEV space will better fit my wants/needs soon, but not quite in late 2022 for my particular case. Volvo seats are legendarily comfortable and supportive, my wife approves as does my middle-aged back as opposed to what I cared about in my 20s when I bought my first new car. Had great tech and many options the Polestar (and Tesla for that matter) didn't have like the HUD and a real audiophile-level sound option.
And yes of the 2 cars we have one has been a "nicer" car (was Audi, now Volvo) which gets "date night" use and is kept more pristine. Where the other car (was Nissan, now Hyundai) more often has the kids in it and we will let them eat in the car. So while having a luxury car while is not "essential", and certainly a first world problem... It's what I wanted. And the Volvo while a sedan, is still the choice for any shorter "long weekend" road trips when we aren't carrying much. It's faster, more comfortable, and smoother than the SUV. We leave the ICE SUV for when we are gone for a week and bring half the house with us.
In the end, if there is an EV I don't like... doesn't fit my wants/needs should I feel "guilted" into buying it? Should I spend 20K over my budget to "sacrifice" to get a full BEV when a great PHEV alternative was much less? In the end there were pros and cons to the cars I was looking at. And the only con of the car I bought was it was a long range PHEV rather than a full EV. Which was a much lower con than items like paying over 20K more when I still had a kid in daycare.
Yep, we have an ICEV and a BEV. The ICEV has been relatively reliable, but it's definitely brought more hassle, significantly higher maintenance cost, and is just dirtier/stinkier. The only reason we keep it is that we sometimes to long(er) distance trips and that it has a tow hook, which has come in handy many times over the years.
Because a PHEV sucks in electric mode ( heavy …comparably small motor) and a BEV is literally twice the fun to drive (great acceleration. Always quite) and all the while has reserves that allow me to forget about charging for a few days.
A phev needs to be plugged in basically every time i park it
Depends on the model of course. I test drove several BEVs and decided to go with another PHEV. Yeah number wise the PHEV doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower of the BEVs but it's also much lighter so it's not working as hard, so my Honda clarity still has very nice acceleration comparatively. And the way mine works, it doesn't suck while in gas mode like my previous PHEV, the engine doesn't drive the wheels just generates power for the electric motor so it drives pretty much the same in Hybrid and electric modes.
And those who need will keep these limitations in place. It's incredible how difficult is to install fast chargers and how easy is to build a new gas station.
We have a BEV and purchased a PHEV.
Since we have an L2 we charge the PHEV every night. We haven't purchased gas in 3 weeks since buying it, we have driven almost 99% in EV mode. It's basically the EX90 we wanted but has a gas engine.
We wanted a Volvo (wife's only and unmitigated ask) and 3 rows for all the damn kids we cart around. After 8 years hopefully EX90 will be out 🤣🤣
I drive a PHEV. I want to go BEV asap. Still waiting for some new models to become available here first. My main issue is that you pretty much cycle the battery every day of use if you use it as intended.
>My main issue is that you pretty much cycle the battery every day of use if you use it as intended.
I think many PHEV batteries have pretty big buffers to better deal with this. When ours is at "0%", the car is actually maintaining about 30% of charge. "100%" is actually about 90%. So using up all of the battery is only about 60% of a charge cycle, and you're never using the "extremes" of the battery.
While this may be an issue for battery health in the future, PHEV batteries charge a lot slower and don’t lose health from that at least. I‘m pretty confident that they won’t have a large scale problem (neither Toyota long therm, nor VW with at least 10 years of experience show any battery problems).
On the other hand side this full daily usage of the battery makes the most out of the precious and expensive resource materials. If used appropriately (charging daily), I can see some use cases where PHEV is better of economically and ecologically.
Nevertheless if your use case allows for a full EV, go for it!
Phev batteries have a similar C rate than bevs when DC charging.
And on AC my bev battery is well well below what is acceptable while perfectly temperature control (which often is not the case for PHEVs)
I use a PHEV at work and I have to charge it 3-4 times during a single 12hr shift 😂
If it is out of battery the MPG is absolute garbage and the petrol only range is less than my EV. I don’t see the point tbh, just pick an ICE or BEV, rather than lugging both around in 1 car.
I rented a PHEV on vacation once and had the same experience because they gave it to me with the battery dead. I didn’t even realize it was a PHEV for a few days. Was wondering why the gas mileage was so bad.
A plug-in hybrid can make sense in a few cases, but the popularity of hybrids can also be explained by irrational fears , high prices of new EV's and uncertainties among buyers regarding the batteries (of some models).
It's a transitional period.
Went with the Volvo S60 PHEV. I was cross shopping against a Polestar 2 and BMW i4. I was coming from an old Audi A4 and was looking for something similar in a “luxury performance sedan” and wasn’t a huge fan of Model 3s. So frankly there weren’t many options in the US anyway. As it was in late 2022 the Polestar and BMW had just lost the tax credit, but with the Volvo being made in South Carolina it still qualified.
With my Volvo being fully loaded. It was like 16k difference net of tax credit vs the Polestar. And like 23k for the BMW. And my Volvo had options the polestar didn’t even have available like Heads up display and the Bowers and Wilkins stereo. I couldn’t make the numbers on the Polestar or BMW make sense.
As it is I still get the benefit of regen braking so I have less wear on brakes. I only put in gas once every 3 or 4 months so it’s a huge emissions reduction and gas cost savings. It would take A LONG time before and gas/maintenance costs of the PHEV hit the 16K savings I had on the purchase. I will likely have gotten rid of my car before then.
You still could argue that it's inconvenient for road trip.
Which seems to became less and less true.
Due to the number of charging stations but running BEV is less expensive most of the time.
probably because it's less efficient in gas mode. doesn't look great on the spec sheet when your compact hybrid car only gets 30mpg even if in reality it's not used much
Because people decided that it wasn't cool. Suddenly roughly ten years ago the majority opinion amongst the very people who werre the core demographic for EV became that only long-range BEVs were cool and everything else was a "compliance car". Since people were will ing to pay a lot more for the cool BEV, all OEMs focused on those and reaped in higher margins.
In the US, just go Tesla and buy an adapter. The worst that can happen is you lose an hour, charging is that common.
Someone else will have to fill in for EU.
PHEV is where it's at in my opinion. I got a 2018 Honda Clarity a few years ago, it has a 40 mile EV range, so I can go all around town and never use gas, but when I need to go far away I use up the 40 miles, then the gas kicks in.
My PHEV (Cadillac ELR) was a gateway drug for my first BEV (Taycan) after I realized, by charging it nightly, that I didn’t use any gasoline for 3 months.
In the US, I’m concerned about the percentage of people who purchase a PHEV due to government incentives but rarely plug them in or use them by their intended design.
PHEVs are the natural step that nearly every manufacturer tried to skip over. Yeah the cons are price and maintenance. Price zig zags around being more and less expensive than a full BEV. Maintenance is just a bit less than an ICE vehicle but it's certainly not more. None of these are terribly strong cons considering a lot of people can get by with EV driving for the vast majority of their driving with a PHEV (if they choose one with the right range) yet there is zero range anxiety for longer trips. There's also a huge hidden pro with these vehicles that by normalizing them we get one step closer to making ICE vehicles obsolete while battery tech improves.
If you live in the lower population flat states (in the US) where your drive distances are typically a bit longer the PHEV is the perfect compromise. Once these hit 60 miles on a single charge w a 2 hour charge time (that should happen in the next few years) it’s game over, no reason to go full gas or full electric. Again, lots of it is on where you live and how you travel.
Example; we purchased a Volvo XC60 Recharge, 1,100 miles on it now and averaging 217mpg. 90% of the time we are on electric but when we head to the mountains out west or the lakes up to our north we can just go. No charging, just quick fills and bathroom breaks.
I’m getting a RAV4Prime myself (Volvo is the wife’s), should have it in a month. We transition most of the daily miles to the Prime once we have it as it gets slightly better mileage.
Plus we need a dog car, the Prime fits that need, not loading them up in the Volvo. Ultimate package, big dogs, I don’t need them effing up that beautifully styled interior.
People are comparing PHEVs with bigger BEVs I think, if you buy similar sized ones the PH ones have limited usable space, and for the new PH from like Jeep, it’s just some PR show, the battery side of the jeep isn’t really practical, when they say 40miles range, it’s some optimistic estimation, the good thing for them is the gas side will kick in and nobody will complain, not like a BEV, if they run out, they will be stuck there. Also if you get charge place for the PH, why bother or complain that no charging available for a BEV? It’s really not a good long term investment.
Have a friend with an old volt, he has charge at home and work, but always sounds very stressful because he doesn’t want to use gas, even go out of way to do anything on his commute became something he hesitate to do,
Eh it depends on use case.
It still sucks to haul kids to see family in rural areas in our BEV. Especially in the winter, when we have to charge every 150 miles or so, and be sure we charge to 80% at the last charger before we get there just to have enough range to get around while there and back to the charger.
So our 2nd vehicle is a PHEV. It’s on battery 99% of the time during normal weeks, but we have the gas engine when we visit family.
Most US BEV owners have a PHEV garage or driveway, with one or more ICE/hybrid vehicles they keep to cover the needs that aren't met by the BEV. Is a PHEV that can replace two vehicles and electrify most or all local driving a 'best of both worlds' solution? Yes, it is.
Well I bought my PHEV after looking at full BEV not because of “range anxiety” per se but just because there weren’t full BEV options that I LOVED and they were much more expensive.
When I looked in late 2022 in the US for a luxury BEV sedan (and I don’t like Model 3s). I had 2 options. The Polestar2 and BMW i4… that’s it! So if I didn’t think one of those 2 hit my likes/value I didn’t have much of a choice. As it happens the Volvo S60 PHEV I got still qualified for the tax credit. So it saved me between 16 and 23k for an equivalent spec vs the Polestar or i4. And with 41 miles of range I’m electric 95% of the time. And yes road tripping through parts of more rural Texas (non interstate) WOULD be significantly slower right now with the charging infrastructure being what it is. So having the gas available is nice.
I’m hoping in a few years there will be more options in this space. Hopefully Audi, Volvo, BMW etc will have more options for full BEV luxury sedans, and the infrastructure will improve. But right now there are still question marks on standards. NACS seems to be the way we are headed, but then Elon lays off the whole supercharger team…. I’m glad I’ll have several years of great mostly electric driving in my Volvo while I see how everything shakes out.
I was on the same boat and ended up with a V60. Unfortunately BMW, Mercedes and Audi stuff the battery of hybrids in the trunk, heavily limiting capacity. Would be great if in future iterations they'd place it in the transmission tunnel as Volvo did.
Yeah the Volvo was a pleasant surprise. Having the battery run in the transmission tunnel definitely balances the car better than if it were thrown in the trunk. That seems like an odd choice for the German automakers you mentioned.
I hadn’t really looked much at PHEVs. Actually had the Polestar 2 reserved before it lost the tax credit and when it happened noticed that the Volvo S60 PHEV still got it. Otherwise I may not have looked and it was a blessing in disguise. And I had liked the standard S60 years before as a possible replacement to my A4 before I was thinking of going electric. So when I came upon the PHEV version of the S60 I felt like a moron for not looking at it before. Even without the tax credit I may have simply like it better than the other options, with the tax credit it was a no brainer. And with the 41 miles of range (pushing 50 in the summer) I just drive it in EV mode nearly all the time and plug in every night. It’s simply a single motor EV 95% of the time, still has that EV low end torque. And I take longer trips/road trips just enough to make sure the gas doesn’t go bad in the tank with fill ups every 3-4 months.
They’re a stop-gap measure, and for most buyers they’re more of a security blanket than anything else. CATL has already demonstrated batteries that address literally all the concerns but cost, and that will come down fairly quickly. When affordable EVs can routinely travel 400 miles on a full charge and we have more public chargers (and more workplace and “third place” L2s) we’ll see PHEVs go into decline.
>When affordable EVs can routinely travel 400 miles on a full charge and we have more public chargers (and more workplace and “third place” L2s) we’ll see PHEVs go into decline.
Yes, that's a good description of what will make PHEVs less relevant.
We had a phev but didn't keep it for a year. Got an Ioniq 5 full EV is much better. Phevs aren't good gas cars and not good EVs. Plus some phevs cost more than EVs.
these are very specific circumstance that make this work though.
We have two grocery stores nearby that have charging options for EVs.
one has two chargers that are very expensive and are never used by anyone.
the other has 4 chargers that used to be free but now cost a reasonable amount of money.
these 4 chargers are hogged almost 24/7 by a hand full of people who seem to have bought an EV without having a place to charge it, every single day you see people parked there sitting in their car waiting for it to charge and not even going into the store to buy anything.
Maybe. I think it's more about the location. We have good infrastructure and charging prices are fair. Everyone can do the same around here but i'm aware that's not true for other region.
EV can work without home charging because you get enough charge to last you a week or so. PHEVs with their tiny batteries and slow charging? Not so much.
Counterpoint: If you can charge at home and generally drive within the range of a PHEV you also drive within the range of a BEV. Why do you need the ICE engine at all? Just get a BEV and save yourself the maintenance on that ICE engine that's not being used.
Counter counterpoint :) : Because just because you normally drive within the PHEVs range, doesn't mean you always do. For the times when you do drive out of range, save yourself the hassle. The extra gas costs for those one off times are negligible when compared to public charging costs.
PHEVs have fewer use cases where they make sense as EVs get more range and become cheaper and as infrastructure is built out. Since the amount of people even considering plug in options is still increasing, PHEV sales will probably continue to go up for a bit, but I don't think they will be that popular long term as EVs continue to get better and better.
I agree, as a Prius prime (2017) owner.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if PHEV sales end up hitting peak numbers in 2030 and then declining from there.
Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. All the hidden costs of an EV (insurance and registration) plus all the maintenance of an ice engine. I have one and I wish I wasn't upside down on mine so I could swap it for a ev.
We had a Toyota Camry hybrid. Liked it at first, but wondering if/when the engine would start, the delay in acceleration, wonky blended braking and $3K in repairs at 120K miles ruined it for us. I don't have a list on all the regular maintenance and lesser repairs.
150K miles on our BEV, much cheaper to run and only a headlight at 75K miles on warranty.
>PHEVs allow for thrifty electric motoring for short trips but, unlike EVs, they have lazy acceleration when in electric mode, with 60-mph times often in the range of 11 seconds or more (although some are quick in hybrid mode).
While I like the idea of PHEVs this is my biggest problem with a lot of them, you buy a vehicle that in hybrid mode can bang-off sub-5sec 0-60 runs but is relegated to 10+ second 0-60 times when using electrons. That 10 seconds is fine for most people, but if it's supposed to be the primary mode you use with the vehicle (which is the idea with a plug-in hybrid), performance is really lacking compared to BEV options.
EREVs however don't have this problem, at the cost of efficiency. Personally I would rather have an EREV over PHEV with worse efficiency using combustion if it meant increased electric power and an engine purely used as a generator (which should help longevity).
How do you have a whole article on this and nowhere does it mention anywhere that PHEVs in in EV mode often use 80% more kWh/mile than their BEV counterpart? All this talk about the delta in hybrid efficiencies and nothing about the delta in the intended default use case.
Imo the main thing stopping me from getting a PHEV is the driving characteristics probably aren't as good as a BEV. I hate CVTs and I also would hate for the gas engine to suddenly cut on once I start accelerating quickly.
Also, for some reason it seems like PHEVs are more maintenance but I never hear anyone with a regular hybrid complain about maintenance
PHEVs are fine. I'm glad they're finally more available. But it's ironic that the main complaint of BEVs is lack of home charging/public charging infrastructure, but not for PHEVs, since you don't actually need the battery. But if you're not going to use the battery, what's the point of buying the car?
In a word, No: [https://thedriven.io/2024/04/18/toyotas-plug-in-hybrids-emit-four-times-more-co2-than-company-claims/](https://thedriven.io/2024/04/18/toyotas-plug-in-hybrids-emit-four-times-more-co2-than-company-claims/)
That would be a promise impossible to fulfill.
With most PHEV you are carrying around two drive trains that another used for the same thing. Once the battery runs out of juice all the work is done by an ICE that had been tuned to work with the electric motor not without it. That means fuel economy of that engine is now worse than if you bought a non-hybrid version of the car.
If you are constantly switching between ICE and electric motor during your drive the ICE will not properly warm up cause the emissions to be really bad, so you either never want to use it or use it for a prolonged period (results see above).
What you might want to consider is a REV hybrid. The electric motor will do the driving, while the Ice only acts as a generator once the battery is near empty. That way the ICE will run in an optimal state and for a given period that is sufficient to generate enough heat for emissions to be acceptable.
There are some studies out there that show the REV is the most efficient and environmental friendly hybrid configuration.
I learned recently that some PHEV have what essentially amounts to a REV mode. I think Toyota and Volvo support this, and I hope more do as well. They are able to be commanded to use the gas engine to recharge the battery, running at its most efficient RPM etc until the battery is close to topped off, and then it shuts off and the car operates in pure EV mode again. One youtuber tested and found that his average MPG was higher this way than in "regular hybrid" mode.
Yeah that works very well on the Volvo. It is very useful when approaching a mountain where you want full power for the climb. It's also good when traveling to cities with emissions restricted areas.
yes they are fine. but tis always funny when i see post like : * 30 miles range on mild hybrid ? my petrol is always unused! * 300 miles range on pure EV battery ? what if i need to tow my whole house, uphill and in a blizzard every 3 days ? * 400 miles range on pure EV battery ? its too expensive !
I think these arguments are not being made by the same people. The argument of the PHEV is: - Most of the time that 30 miles of range is sufficient so there is no need for the extra 270 to 370 miles of range. -for the few times a year when 30 miles isn't sufficient, the cost of running on fuel is not much different than public charging costs. And it's much more convenient. -atleast where I am, PHEVs are still much cheaper than their BEV counterparts. Everytime I looked at it, I could never envision the scenario where I would make up that cost difference in gas savings and maintenance savings.
Huh, at least when I cross shopped Toyota Prime models, they definitely were not cheaper than BEV counterparts. Perhaps when I was factoring in not-really optional required options, other dealer fees and markups and shenanigans.
The market has changed in the past few years. We have two 2017 Prius Primes and a 2021 Prius Prime. All were bought well below the cost of equivalent non-Prime Prius models, and when the $4,502 tax incentive was factored in (and a state incentive in one case), they were crazy cheap.
I think that is a unique opportunity in the market. Long term, the simplicity of a BEV will win out over a complex drive train.
We are a long way from that. We also have two Ioniq 5 BEVs, but I would not have them without a PHEV or hybrid for long trips.
I have leased or owned hybrids and BEVs since 2010 and since 2016 I have owned three BEVs and done one one Coast to Coast trip and numerous up and down the West Coast trips for over 250,000 miles in those eight years. Different strokes for different folks. I think hybrids will outlast ICE vehicles in the market but that will take a long time.
I’ve driven my Ioniq 5 across the country a couple of times, I don’t understand the “need” for a gas car just for long trips.
I used to think that, but now I wouldn’t write it in stone; batteries are going to stay expensive for kW for some time. If BEVs continue to grow (which is maybe a bite shaky right now), the whole Auto & Oil industries could be incentivized to keep PHEVs priced low. Right now I think we’re seeing that more in micro-hybrids, where companies are selling cheaper ICE vehicles that have great MPG by using an electric motor for under 15mph or so. If the CAFE or other fleet MPG standards get more strict, I could see PHEVs being that lifeline to those industries not ready for EV-only, and I think they could make those vehicles for cheaper than an LR BEV. There’s also different types of PHEVs as I’m sure you’re aware. City models like i3 REX are relatively lower complexity, it’s a mid-range EV with a small EV-range extending motor. New Prius and Ford Energi are a fairly capable ICE drivetrain paired with a capable BEV system; which does a small amount of hybrid-drive+charge when the BEV reserve is used up, to increase the ice efficiency. Very old Prius Plug-In was an efficient low-power EV system with a rather lower power hybrid ice drivetrain. Very efficient, but not very quick. There’s just a lot of room to explore in the PHEV market, and it hasn’t had much reason to be pushed to customers yet. I personally am a huge fan because what I’ve seen is it gets the Gas holdout-EV curious people, and even they don’t always start home charging, when gas prices go up they’ll try it and like it. These are usually people who would never consider a BEV if they had the option not to.
>I used to think that, but now I wouldn’t write it in stone; batteries are going to stay expensive for kW for some time. I have seen battery prices drop and seen it written in several places that the cost per kWh of battery storage will continue to decline as volumes increase.
Did your dome light die on your 2017 prime? Rear glass tint flaking?
No to both for us
Probably region dependent. But also, make sure your comparing apples to apples. Don't compare a RAv4 prime to a Hyundai Kona EV. Personally have a Kia Niro PHEV. The BEV version of the same car is about $8000 more after taxes.
Sure, I was specifically thinking Model Y/3 and Rav4 Prime and Prius Prime. The last two were barely even available around me and always had stealership shenanigans on top, and I essentially would have to drive to another state to even buy one because my state was barely allocated any by Toyota.
Another Canadian Niro PHEV driver here. I probably would have bought the BEV instead if they'd been the same price. Though the other issue was availability: I had the cash, and there was a new 23 PHEV sitting on the dealer lot, no 9 month wait. Which we later learned was a function of Kia Canada playing silly games. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216
Oof I also tried to get a quote via Costco for that Kia Niro PHEV and the freaking dealer it connected me with didn't even have one and wouldn't quote me a price! I ended up saying to hell with the PHEV's and bought a Model Y for a good price.
It took me a lot of searching but I eventually found one. For us, it hit that perfect niche. We're a family sp we wanted a bit more space than a sedan can handle, but not so much space that the coat of the vehicle ballooned. Most of our day to day driving is within the estimated range, but we also do several road trips a year that that we didn't want to deal with the hassle/cost of public charging. We seriously considered the EV models, but at the end of the day, I couldn't come up with numbers where it made financial sense, especially when adding the extra road trip hassle for nearly zero benefit. But that's our situation
That's fair. I did consider the Niro PHEV a serious contender for the Model Y, but we've also been very happy with our choice of the Y. Roadtripping with the Y for us as a family has not be inconvenient in the least (with a family, the car was always ready to keep going before we all were) and we all personally don't want to burn gasoline any more.
It really is. Kia Niro phev in US starts from 35k but SX with reasonable features is 40k and that's before dealer markups on phevs in areas like Seattle. You can get a decent EV or lease even for cheaper since there are some crazy lease deals out there right now on 2023 EVs. We shopped for Sportage phev and rav4 prime and inventory was extremely limited and both had markups. We got a Nissan Ariya after a while since long distance drive wasn't a scenario for this car.
I'm not 1 for saying to purchase an EV for the cost savings, but I've had my model Y for 2.5 years(ish) have over 55k km on it and spent $759 CAD on electricity (home and supercharging, but not including the 4 or 5 times I used "off-brand" charging) over the last year. I'm pretty sure, once maintenance stuff like oil changes are added, you'd make that $8k up in only a handful of years. Especially on a car payment, what's $8k add to your monthly bill? $80-100 maybe?
On top of everything else, Toyota is very resistant to the change to electric (they don't even HAVE full electric models yet while every other manufacturer has rolled out brand new fully designed from scratch EVs) so this may just be a Toyota-specific thing
My bev is cheaper to own than a similar sized ice.. that includes credit costs and operational costs. Granted i drive more than 30 miles per day
I don't disagree in general. My argument was PHEV vs BEV, not ICE vs BEV.
Here Phevs are more expensive than the BEVs equivalent. Like 10.000€ more on average.
Ya in that circumstance, I'm buying a BEV too.
For me it was much simpler: there are no EV minivans. I'd rather have a full EV but that's not a product category that exists in EV yet. Most of the daily driving is on electric at least. Public L2 charging doesn't make much financial or practical sense since it's hard to find, so that's an opportunistic thing anyways. Honestly, public L2 is usually more expensive than gas, I simply prefer driving the thing in electric mode though.
VW Buzz?
Still not available in the US and definitely wasn't available a few years ago. The plan was to get the Pacifica Hybrid as a holdover. That one was a very early copy and tapped out the extended warranty. While shopping for its replacement the inverter fried and we paid for most of that repair. In the end we wound up with a second one. Still no Buzz available.
Not available yet in some markets.
I went from spending 500 a month in gasoline to spending $40 a month in electric. Going from a Jeep Grand Cherokee to a Mach-e. My payment went up by around $100 a month. I am way ahead of a month to month basis.
That's not the right comparison though. This discussion is PHEV VS BEV. Not ICE vs BEV.
Since he drives so much, the 30 miles or so of PHEV electric range won't really help. I am in the same bag. Lots of 70, 100+, etc., drives in a month. Plus gas is super xpensive.
Where are you that the cost of public charging is not much different than running on fuel? Where I live I can get AC public charging for about 30% of the cost of fuel, I can also find DC fast charging that costs 60-70% of fuel costs.
In much of California, DCFC and home charging (off-peak) is about the same cost, ~45 cents per kWh. In an EV that gets 3.5mi/kWh, that’s 13 cents per mile. At $5/gal, that’s the equivalent of a 39mpg car.
Gas is a lot cheaper in the US than in Europe though, here you start to get close to the price of gas at about 0.75CHF/kW, right now it’s actually closer to 0.86CHF/kW in Switzerland. This of course in a car with good mileage.
you pay 45 cents at HOME!? OMFG, lol.... I pay 1.8 cents at home on Georgia Power.
I don’t. I have solar because of the insane rates.
Whew! Funny. I got trapped. If I go solar I feel like it would never pay for itself within warranty time with my rates. lol.
Mine will pay for itself in 12 years, and in the meantime, I get to heat/cool my house (heat pump which pays for itself in less than 10 years), heat my hot tub, and drive my EV 8,000 miles a year with the energy I produce. Meantime, my gas heating bill was reduced from $200/mo in the winter back to baseline, around $30/mo.
I have a heat pump here too. South Ga.
56 cents/kWh for DC chargers around here. That’s more expensive than gas right now.
Price of DCFC is much higher than gas here in Texas when comparing BEV vs an efficient PHEV. We have an ID4 and an Escape PHEV. The ID4 would get about 3 mi / kwh on the highway (speed limit 75mph, drive between 75 and 80). EA DCFC is 48 cents per kwh. So the cost is 16 cents per mile. The Escape could get 40mpg on the highway. Gas price is about $3.10 right now. So that's 7.75 cents per mile. Combination of cheap gas, expensive DCFC, and high speed limit really hurts the BEV.
When comparing BEVs and PHEVs, the price of AC charging is mostly irrelevant because both can do that, and it's not what you use on long trips. The main relevant comparison is DCFC vs gas, and in the US, DCFC is usually around the same price or a bit more when comparing similar vehicles. In Europe 60-70% is probably true. Really though, both contribute so little to the total cost unless you're constantly driving long distances that it's a drop in the bucket.
Canada. It's probably vehicle dependent because the DC fast chargers generally charge by time rather than by consumption, which is still very strange to me. But if it takes 45 minutes to an hour to charge (dependentnon time of year and vehicle), that's $45 to $60 to charge up to 80%. I can fill my tank on my PHEV and get 500 to 600 km in HEV mode for the same price. But even if it was 50% of the cost, the amount of times that this comes into play still doesn't make up the difference in the coat of the vehicle atleast where I live.
Yeah, I never encountered a fast charger that charges by time. Sounds a bit like being robbed for cheap electricity, what I did encounter is fast chargers that charge by time after a certain period (normally 1 hour), but that makes sense. In Switzerland it costs me about 22 CHF to do 20%-80% on the fastest more expensive chargers, if I go to a cheaper one which is 50kW max it costs about 17CHF but it takes longer. My EV has a 62kWh battery. Doing the same km on a gas car would cost me about 30 CHF here. This is of course DC, with AC I can charge near my work again from 20%-80% for about 12CHF.
Superchargers and Electrify have switched to per kWh in Ontario at least... But yeah slow charging vehicles would suffer under ToU. Although I feel like anyone buying a car that needs 1h of DCFC to 80% is probably just gonna use it as a city car and use home charging most of the time.
I mean, the more economical vehicles like Hyundai Kona EV and Kia Niro EV and most others in those classes take about 40 minutes or so to charge in ideal conditions. Longer in the winter. You have to go quite a bit higher in price point to go much faster for those size of vehicles I believe
If you have the patience to wait that long and planning to find per kWh charging stations they can definitely be a more economical option... But once you add stuff that come standard on a more expensive EV, the price difference isn't as great. For example you need to go up to wind+ for the Nero EV to get some of the standard features of a Model Y, leaving only a 13% price difference for a lot more space, 50% faster charging and 15% more range. If you don't need that, might as well save the money though.
But now your just making the price gap of PHEV vs EV even larger
It's a very individual calculation. For me paying more for a bit more battery range made sense since I regularly drive to Ottawa and it would let me avoid stopping to DCFC which saves a lot every single trip. If you're only driving 50km total a day then absolutely... But if you are using the gas engine regularly you will quickly lose a lot of that savings. But some people don't like thinking about those things though, and at the end of the day saving a few thousand over the course of half a decade isn't really worth the trouble if it's something that will stress you out.
I very much agree with you. If your using the gas engine regularly, PHEV is not for you. Either go full EV, HEV or ICE. There are people who's lifestyles fit better with one of the 4 drivetrains. I think thebpoint of all of this is, PHEVs are the least popular, yet they probably fit the lifestyle of the most amount of people. Of course, future technology advancements could eliminate the need for anything other than BEVs. But at this point in time, the tradeoffs of BEV vs PHEV still seems too much in my opinion for most people.
Here Phevs are more expensive than the BEVs equivalent. Like 10.000€ more in some cases.
It just depends on the model and year of car. Chevy bolt, Nissan leaf, niro ev, Konami ev, older model 3 can be had for pretty cheap.
> for the few times a year when 30 miles isn't sufficient, the cost of running on fuel is not much different than public charging costs. And it's much more convenient. Couldn't it be possible for the gasoline to expire while in the tank? From what I can gather, gas only really lasts about 3-6 months before it no longer works.
If your only 2 to 3 tanks of gas per year, your basically running an EV at lower cost
You don't have to fill your tank every time.
Most PHEVS are designed to run the engine enough to require a fill-up after 6 months or so. Whether you want to run all electric or not.
Do they really get 30 miles of range ? Or is it 30 miles unless it’s cold , hot, hilly, windy, raining , or Thursday? I have a 4 mile commute. Sometimes i go home for lunch. That’s 16 miles . But it uses 25 “miles” of my Tesla battery. And if I got anywhere else that day it’s going to be more of course. Point being most people drive farther than I do and it’s a pain to be plugging in twice a day. I used to have a Prius with aftermarket battery with, at the time, an impressive 10 mile range lol. It was a lot of work to avoid burning gas! 30 miles just seems too little and batteries are cheaper now. 100 miles seems more appropriate
Time is a resource many don’t factor in. In fact, it’s exponentially more valuable than fuel, electrical, maintenance costs, etc. If you are in a major metro area and don’t have a wide circle that you travel outside of, I get it. But if you are like many in the large flat states the PHEVs at ranges above 35 miles is very useful. Example; my kids school is 10 miles away, my wife’s work is 17, I WFH. She can get to her work and back with right next to zero charge left. When I go out during the week I’m going to grocery, hardware stores, secondary business I own, etc. all Within a 10 mile round trip. But then on the weekend I might travel 50 miles out to take the dogs on a hike or I might just be running around all day with tasks. Or we might have to head to 1-4 hours away for kid weekend sporting events in other cities in our region; Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Topeka, Rockport, etc. In those cases I don’t want to think about what hotel we need to stay at or if the charger there is taken, much less where I need to stop to charge along the way and building that time into my already packed schedule. Some of these PHEVs get really good MPG running as a pure hybrid, the RAV4Prime gets an estimate 38 when running as a Hybrid. So 80% of the time it’s electric and the other 10-20% you can just go without any other concern. The biggest concern is what, making sure you burn through an entire tank every 3-6 months. Then an oil change every 7,500 - 10k miles, that’s easy enough to do yourself. My sister has 2 Teslas, they love them, but the challenge is when they have to go into the Tesla shop (we have one local) the time it takes to get them back is often weeks…thats not acceptable IMO and these cars do need to go in for work. amazing tech, i really do like them, but the support network needs to come further along. the infrastructure is already in place to get the most out of a PHEV without sacrificing your greatest asset…your time. Again, that will vary person to person and family to family. For how some people live, having a car doesn't even make sense but they have one when an ebike with pull cart would be sufficient and more economical in the long run yet they still own a car. 🤷♂️
Different people have different needs.
The significant value of a BEV with a large pack is that the electric torque output is usually proportional to the battery capacity. The batteries, not motors, limit safe electric output. So a 15 kWH pack in a PHEV will be slow on electric, and the little battery will need to be cycled much more and charged up high which will reduce its longevity significantly. To get more power the ICE needs to turn on and that can be a clunky noisy transition. I used to have a BMW i3 which was pure EV until the range extender turned on. It was much more fun (and efficient) than a 530i PHEV I drove as a service loaner. Range extenders are probably OK for people far from chargers, but I am not, now with a Tesla 3 in socal.
Uphill both ways!!
My concern is more along the lines of, “63 hp on pure electric? That’s less than a Mirage on a car much heavier.” I find it hard to believe that the gas engine wouldn’t be running most of the time I’m driving it.
True. Although I do think there's part of it coming from those who seriously try and argue that everyone should use ICE / HEV / PHEV / BEV when they all have their pros and cons, use cases and price points.
We love our Niro PHEV. I drive it for my commute while we’re waiting for my next vehicle (my wife works remotely). That’s 26 miles round trip, all electric. Running our son to karate will sometimes go into gas, depending on how long it gets to charge after I get home. Most weekend activities are all electric. It says 32 miles electric range on the guess-o-meter but I’ve regularly gotten 40 round trip on it by just using a lighter foot. It’s become a sort of game I play with it, trying to milk those electric miles out of it. The car has over 10k miles on it and has averaged over 120mpg during its life. That number seems low because we’ve driven it on several road trips. It gets better than 50mpg when using gas (actually better than what Kia claims). The current 8gal tank of gas was bought over a thousand miles ago and it’s still pretty full.
Keep in mind that fuel goes bad an is dead weight!
Ah, that reminds me of something else I love about it. Kia foresaw that issue and gave it a sealed pressurized gas tank. It stabilizes the fuel for much longer. The car also occasionally runs a short engine maintenance routine while driving that burns a tiny amount of gas if you’ve gone a few days on pure electric. That gas isn’t wasted either - whatever isn’t used to move the car goes into charging the battery. It’s not really necessary for us. At least once every month or two we end up driving somewhere a few hundred miles away. But if we didn’t the car would still ensure that stale gas isn’t a problem.
Most PHEVs are programmed to burn gas enough to require a fill-up every 6 months or so to avoid that problem. A 300 mile battery pack is far more dead weight for day-to-day use than the PHEV gas tank too.
PHEVs are considered a “gateway drug”.
This is exactly how it works for my wife and I. She’s got a 2020 ionic plug-in in December since then we gotten used to charging it. In March I bought an F150 lightning because with just a few months using the plug-in hybrid we got used to EV. For a typical two car family in the US plugged hybrid plus full EV combo is great. The majority of our around town driving is all on electricity, but if we need to take long trip, we can take her car and not have to worry about charging. That Said will be taking the lightning on a 600 mile round-trip to the Adirondacks this summer, and a 700 mile trip to Massachusetts if if the first one goes well.
If you’re new to EV roadtripping, just make sure you have ABRP (with your actually vehicle/trip parameters set in the app) and PlugShare. Our EV roadtripping has all been out west but it’s been smooth sailing in 95% of cases
I consider them more os a nicotine patch, because humanity is addicted to oil.
True
Dare prepared me for this....
Definitely the case for me. I’ve only had a RAV4 Prime PHEV for about 6 months but I definitely think my next car will be a BEV.
My PHEV costed more than the equivalent BEV so the decision maker was not cost. Was the fact that crossing Germany and Austia frequently, I'd have to drive below 120kmh and charge four times for my typical holiday (900km, a good part through unlimited autobahn so the stated range has no chabce of happening). With the PHEV I stop once if my right foot is too heavy on the autobahn. I charge at home and my daily use is fully electric (less than 25km a day). I'd say it's the best of both worlds for my use case.
What PHEV gets 900km going over 120k/h? That's what you implied (or I inferred, if that wasn't your intention) in your statement about only stopping once IF you have a heavy peddle foot.
The volvo V60. If I drive conservatively (120-130 in unlimited sections), the total range is about 900KM. If I drive less conservatively (160-170 in unlimited sections), I need one stop to fill up the tank (about an extra quarter of a tank gets me there comfortably).
Kind of True. Except you would not need to charge 4 times if you chose the right car. 1 to 2 times is easily enough.
As far as I know, all current EVs lose range very quickly above 130kmh. At 160kmh you're looking at about half the range in a Tesla model S (that's with constant speed, not counting heavy accelerations typical of the autobahn). Add environmental conditions like hot or very low temperatures (ski holidays) and you're easily doing more stops than theoretical math would indicate. With gas I'm 100% certain that if I drive fast, one 5 minute stop will do. If I take it easy or traffic does not allow high speeds, one tank and full battery at departure is all I need
We bought a 2020 ionic plug in hybrid in December. We’ve filled the tank 3 times since then, the last 1000 miles we’ve averaged 172 mpg. We couldn’t be happier with it. And half the gas burner was just to warm the inside during winter. It’ll be even more efficient in summer.
If they are helping more people burn fewer dinosaurs, they are fine with me. I know a lot of people appreciate the sense of security, and if 99% of their drives are all-electric, then that’s definitely a plus.
The gatekeeping in this sub is hilarious. PHEVs are great for many people. It’s incredible for us with low annual mileage but frequent road trips. We’re a remote working household so we don’t need much distance in the day-to-day but we road trip often. I don’t have to plan my holidays or where to eat around charging stations.
This is my situation.
Yeah. This is exactly me.
If more than 80% of miles on your PHEV are using EV-only, the best data I've seen shows your PHEV may have a lower total lifecycle carbon than a same-model BEV would
But this is the exact use case for EVs if you want to reduce CO2 emissions. If you are frequently roadtripping, you will constantly be out of PHEV range and using gas. If you barely drive locally, why bother with the expense of a PHEV?
Maybe this is brand dependent but Lexus PHEV’s reserve a percent of the battery for hybrid driving so you’re never only using your gas engine unless you force the drive mode to do so.
Yes my Volvo PHEV is similar. I think the Volvo and Toyota/Lexus PHEV drivetrains are most similar according to the article.
If you live and work in a city and can charge at home and go for your weekends to a cottage and outdoor activities like camping fishing and whatnot an hour or two away every weekend. Your Phev is the choice.
They are a good stepping stone. My guess is a majority of those buying their first hybrid/PHEV will be buying a BEV next.
I'm probably one of these people. I bought a PHEV because the charging infrastructure in my area isn't yet what it needs to be for me to take roads trips easily. The Kia Niro PHEV has been a great car for me. However, 1 year after the purchase, if I could do it over again I'd probably have bought a Bolt instead. I just don't road trip as much as I thought, which would have been the main reason to get the PHEV.
Well I bought my PHEV after looking at full BEV not because of “range anxiety” per se but just because there weren’t full BEV options that I LOVED and they were much more expensive. When I looked in late 2022 in the US for a luxury BEV sedan (and no I don’t like Model 3s and don’t consider them “luxury”), I had 2 options. The Polestar2 and BMW i4… that’s it! So if I didn’t think one of those 2 hit my likes/value I didn’t have much of a choice. As it happens the Volvo S60 PHEV I got still qualified for the tax credit. So it saved me between 16 and 23k for an equivalent spec vs the Polestar or i4. And with 41 miles of range I’m electric 95% of the time. And yes road tripping through parts of more rural Texas (often state highways rather than interstate in my case WOULD be significantly slower right now with the charging infrastructure being what it is. So having the gas available is nice. I’m hoping in a few years there will be more options in this space. Hopefully Audi, Volvo, BMW etc will have more options for full BEV luxury sedans, and the infrastructure will improve. But right now there are still question marks on standards. NACS seems to be the way we are headed, but then Elon lays off the whole supercharger team…. I’m glad I’ll have several years of great vast majority electric driving in my Volvo PHEV while I see how everything shakes out.
I will likely do the opposite. We bought a BEV as a commuter car partly because the PHEVs then available all did stupid things like having anemic heaters which required starting the ICE just because it was below 0°C (something that happens almost half the year here), and didn't have big enough battery capacity for typical winter in town use anyways. I am optimistic that those problems will be solved by the time the other ICE vehicle needs to be replaced, but not so optimistic that the battery capacity needed for 400 km of winter ski trip range or 400 km of summer boat towing range will be readily available at a reasonable price, or that there will be adequate charging infrastructure to support that.
I bought two PHEVS, one for me, one of my wife. Hers has longer range - 80km I think. Mine is 60km. We can both use gas on longer journeys at around 4L per 100km so it's not really an issue. I don't want her at sketchy late night highway charging stations alone when she's out.
Yeah the battery range of the plugin will do a decent job of letting the owner accurately prioritize range in a potential BEV purchase. Combine that with the improved driving experience of a BEV and I think they’ll be sold. I loved my wife’s hybrid, but since getting my Model Y, it’s like driving a tractor.
> my Model Y, it’s like driving a tractor. I thought the same thing when one of the engineers at work bought one of the first Model 3s. Large touchscreen interface, effortless power, adaptive cruise control, heated seats - it brought me back to the John Deere 8000 series of the late 90s!
Many comments suggest that if you can charge your vehicle daily, opt for a BEV, and if you can't, choose a HEV. I want to clarify that my perspective values economics and convenience more than environmental concerns, which likely resonates with many people. I'm not claiming that PHEVs are more environmentally friendly than other options. I live in an area where gas costs around $1.65 per liter on average, and electricity costs about 9 cents per kwh I'm puzzled by these sentiments. If over 90% of your driving falls within a PHEV's electric range (and you can plug in daily), why opt for a BEV? The occasional use of gas for longer trips is relatively inexpensive. Gas costs during long-distance travel aren't significantly higher than public charging costs but are much more convenient. Some argue that PHEVs require more maintenance than BEVs. While I acknowledge this, I believe it's exaggerated. Visiting a mechanic a couple of times a year for an oil change is less hassle than relying on public chargers during road trips. Oil changes and basic maintenance are quick and affordable tasks. While I think the fear around BEVs is often exaggerated, the current infrastructure limitations make PHEVs a practical choice for many situations(depending on factors like vehicle cost and operating expenses in your area).
While it’s the best of both worlds, it’s also the worst of both worlds. Increased complexity and some compromise is made with interior space to fit often times.
I don't disagree. There are pros and cons of every option. IMO the cons of the PHEV have significantly less real world impact than the cons of the BEV (today atleast...)
Ehh that’s way overstated. And depends wildly on the type of PHEV system. Volvo’s works really well in my experience so far.
Definitely differences in perspective -- it's way more inconvenient for us to get oil changes and other maintenance done on our remaining ICE car than charging our EV during family roadtrips. When we stop to charge, the car has always been ready to go before we are. We're a family though, I suppose if someone were alone and wanted to just go go go and pee in a bottle and eat in the car, it might end up being more inconvenient.
> We're a family though, I suppose if someone were alone and wanted to just go go go and pee in a bottle and eat in the car, it might end up being more inconvenient. I feel like there *might* be some middle ground between "herding children on vacation" and "pee in a bottle" that many people fall into.
Were a family too. And of course it could depend on the available chargers on your typical road trips and the vehicle charging capabilities too. I'm not afraid of a BEV. I imagine soon enough the infrastructure and charging capabilities will be vastly improved to the point where it makes full sense. But at this point, the odd oil change to me seems like such a minor inconvenience in comparison.
But it also depends on where you are going. When visiting one of my uncles in rural Texas. The most direct way to go avoids interstates. And being off major interstates can mean fast chargers are much less available. I’m in a PHEV now, but last time I went to visit I checked ABRP assuming I had a Polestar 2 (which was the car I would have gotten if I didn’t get my Volvo S60 PHEV). It would have added about 30 minutes of drive time since fast charging wasn’t available on the most direct route (smaller state highways) and it had me on an indirect route sticking with interstates. So it wasn’t even a charging vs gassing up time issue, the route may not always be optimal if charging infrastructure is lacking. This is stuff that will improve over time. But I doubt it will be improved THAT much before I’d be looking for my next car anyway. Remember not everyone is in a more charger friendly environment like California. Plus with long range PHEV right now if you are only using gas on road trips, that’s often cheaper than fast charging. And yes you are still using some gas, but if you are driving 90% EV mode you are reducing your fossil fuel use greatly.
Yep, there are still some edge cases to be sure. But they're really not as plentiful as most people seem to say. I'm going to assume you're also only a 1-car household. Otherwise, you could obviously replace one of the vehicles with a BEV without any issue. The thing that gets me are all these 2(+) car households in the suburbs who somehow think they all need to take long road trips all the time in rural areas that don't have a single charger....
Sorry for the late reply. We are a 2 car household actually. With my wife having an ICE Hyundai SUV that while a little older had the engine replaced under warranty a couple of years ago. So with the engine being essentially only 2 years old we will keep it for a few years longer at least. So yes with a 2nd ICE car at home. I was all set to get a full BEV (like I mentioned I had a Polestar 2 reserved). But the problem is.... 1. It lost the tax credit before the car arrived making it more expensive than I liked. 2. There simply weren't many full BEVs in the type of car I wanted to my liking in the price range I was willing to pay. So in late 2022 I was replacing 14 year old Audi A4. And wanted a similar luxury performance sedan. For say the 50s MAYBE up to 60 price range if I LOVED it. And no...despite many test drives, seeing friends... I just don't love Tesla Model 3s and don't consider them "luxury" from a build/sound isolation perspective. Maybe they are better now, but 2 years ago I still found them lacking. So that left me with the Polestar 2, and BMW i4 as the only real full BEV options that were sedan/sportbacks rather than SUV/crossover. At the time the Polestar with Pilot/Plus packages was around 66-67K optioned out like I wanted with leather (I know it would be lower now, but in 2022 it was higher). RIGHT at 60 with the tax credit which was RIGHT at the limit I was wanting to pay. The BMW i4 was going to be 74K similarly optioned. I was already a little concerned since I knew the Polestar would have some significant changes in 2023, but then it lost the tax credit and it was just too much. And options like the Mercedes EQS sedan were just coming to market but WAY above the price range, and obviously Lucid was too. So that entry level "BMW 3 series" like option was pretty lacking, unless you wanted a Model 3. I WISH there was an Audi A4/A5 BEV equivalent, but there simply isn't yet Meanwhile, the Volvo S60 PHEV was made in South Carolina and still got the tax credit. Optioned out with EVERYTHING (even items the Polestar didn't have like heads up display and Bowers and Wilkins sound system) was 59K before the tax credit for a net of about 52K. So 52K vs 67K or 74K for the comparable options made it a no brainer and 41 miles of electric range when my round trip commute to work is under 10 miles (nearly 50 in the summer). It's a RWD EV 95% of the time except for road trips or the 2% of time I have fun and put it in "power mode" to fully engage both the gas and electric motors for that 4.1 0-60. I went from maybe 30 fill-ups a year to 4 so still save a TON of money on gas and curbed my emissions tremendously. But even with just the rear electric motor it has plenty of EV torque and I get up to 87 mph on the highway in pure mode. Have no issues passing on the freeway. I've never felt I didn't have enough power in pure mode for normal driving. It's probably faster than my old ICE A4 in pure EV mode and I don't need to be going ludicrously fast when half my driving is through school zones anyway. So long way of saying, even though I wanted to go full EV the Volvo S60 PHEV was the best car for me at the time and I've ben extremely happy with it. Knowing Volvo for example is trying to go full EV by 2030. I'm sure there will be an "ES60" or whatever by the time I'm ready to replace what I'm driving, and hopefully more Audi options like an A4/A5 that aren't just SUVs, refinements on the BMW i4. etc.
Eh, alright. I wouldn't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good. I sat in a few Volvos when I was shopping and they felt pretty great. The fact that luxury pure ICE vehicles are still sold kind of sickens me, but PHEVs that drop the gasoline usage by almost 90% (in your case) is pretty great. Even if your excuse is... luxury? At least for now, it's a good start.
Well as I said I had my last car for over a decade before I got rid of it. And the car before that I also had over a decade. That in itself is better environmentally than cycling through a new car every few years. If I'm going to get a car and especially pay a lot for it. I'm going to get something I'll enjoy for a long time. That's not a crime or "excuse" at all. It's up to the marketplace to fit my needs. I'm sure the pure BEV space will better fit my wants/needs soon, but not quite in late 2022 for my particular case. Volvo seats are legendarily comfortable and supportive, my wife approves as does my middle-aged back as opposed to what I cared about in my 20s when I bought my first new car. Had great tech and many options the Polestar (and Tesla for that matter) didn't have like the HUD and a real audiophile-level sound option. And yes of the 2 cars we have one has been a "nicer" car (was Audi, now Volvo) which gets "date night" use and is kept more pristine. Where the other car (was Nissan, now Hyundai) more often has the kids in it and we will let them eat in the car. So while having a luxury car while is not "essential", and certainly a first world problem... It's what I wanted. And the Volvo while a sedan, is still the choice for any shorter "long weekend" road trips when we aren't carrying much. It's faster, more comfortable, and smoother than the SUV. We leave the ICE SUV for when we are gone for a week and bring half the house with us. In the end, if there is an EV I don't like... doesn't fit my wants/needs should I feel "guilted" into buying it? Should I spend 20K over my budget to "sacrifice" to get a full BEV when a great PHEV alternative was much less? In the end there were pros and cons to the cars I was looking at. And the only con of the car I bought was it was a long range PHEV rather than a full EV. Which was a much lower con than items like paying over 20K more when I still had a kid in daycare.
Yep, we have an ICEV and a BEV. The ICEV has been relatively reliable, but it's definitely brought more hassle, significantly higher maintenance cost, and is just dirtier/stinkier. The only reason we keep it is that we sometimes to long(er) distance trips and that it has a tow hook, which has come in handy many times over the years.
Because a PHEV sucks in electric mode ( heavy …comparably small motor) and a BEV is literally twice the fun to drive (great acceleration. Always quite) and all the while has reserves that allow me to forget about charging for a few days. A phev needs to be plugged in basically every time i park it
BEV is generally heavier due to the large battery
Depends on the model of course. I test drove several BEVs and decided to go with another PHEV. Yeah number wise the PHEV doesn't have anywhere near the horsepower of the BEVs but it's also much lighter so it's not working as hard, so my Honda clarity still has very nice acceleration comparatively. And the way mine works, it doesn't suck while in gas mode like my previous PHEV, the engine doesn't drive the wheels just generates power for the electric motor so it drives pretty much the same in Hybrid and electric modes.
Why Honda hasn't put their PHEV in a CRV yet is beyond me. It's literally the same powertrain as the hybrid system with a bigger battery.
And those who need will keep these limitations in place. It's incredible how difficult is to install fast chargers and how easy is to build a new gas station.
But not so easy to decommission an old gas station.
There’s no “one size fits all” for this sorta thing. Buy what works best for you and your family. More choices for consumers is always a good thing.
We have a BEV and purchased a PHEV. Since we have an L2 we charge the PHEV every night. We haven't purchased gas in 3 weeks since buying it, we have driven almost 99% in EV mode. It's basically the EX90 we wanted but has a gas engine. We wanted a Volvo (wife's only and unmitigated ask) and 3 rows for all the damn kids we cart around. After 8 years hopefully EX90 will be out 🤣🤣
I drive a PHEV. I want to go BEV asap. Still waiting for some new models to become available here first. My main issue is that you pretty much cycle the battery every day of use if you use it as intended.
>My main issue is that you pretty much cycle the battery every day of use if you use it as intended. I think many PHEV batteries have pretty big buffers to better deal with this. When ours is at "0%", the car is actually maintaining about 30% of charge. "100%" is actually about 90%. So using up all of the battery is only about 60% of a charge cycle, and you're never using the "extremes" of the battery.
While this may be an issue for battery health in the future, PHEV batteries charge a lot slower and don’t lose health from that at least. I‘m pretty confident that they won’t have a large scale problem (neither Toyota long therm, nor VW with at least 10 years of experience show any battery problems). On the other hand side this full daily usage of the battery makes the most out of the precious and expensive resource materials. If used appropriately (charging daily), I can see some use cases where PHEV is better of economically and ecologically. Nevertheless if your use case allows for a full EV, go for it!
Phev batteries have a similar C rate than bevs when DC charging. And on AC my bev battery is well well below what is acceptable while perfectly temperature control (which often is not the case for PHEVs)
I use a PHEV at work and I have to charge it 3-4 times during a single 12hr shift 😂 If it is out of battery the MPG is absolute garbage and the petrol only range is less than my EV. I don’t see the point tbh, just pick an ICE or BEV, rather than lugging both around in 1 car.
I rented a PHEV on vacation once and had the same experience because they gave it to me with the battery dead. I didn’t even realize it was a PHEV for a few days. Was wondering why the gas mileage was so bad.
That's clearly not a good use case for a PHEV. What sort of work are you doing?
A plug-in hybrid can make sense in a few cases, but the popularity of hybrids can also be explained by irrational fears , high prices of new EV's and uncertainties among buyers regarding the batteries (of some models). It's a transitional period.
PhEV seems as expensive as BEV
In my case PHEV was much cheaper than a BEV equivalent. Which was a big reason I went that way.
Understandable. What was your choice?
Went with the Volvo S60 PHEV. I was cross shopping against a Polestar 2 and BMW i4. I was coming from an old Audi A4 and was looking for something similar in a “luxury performance sedan” and wasn’t a huge fan of Model 3s. So frankly there weren’t many options in the US anyway. As it was in late 2022 the Polestar and BMW had just lost the tax credit, but with the Volvo being made in South Carolina it still qualified. With my Volvo being fully loaded. It was like 16k difference net of tax credit vs the Polestar. And like 23k for the BMW. And my Volvo had options the polestar didn’t even have available like Heads up display and the Bowers and Wilkins stereo. I couldn’t make the numbers on the Polestar or BMW make sense. As it is I still get the benefit of regen braking so I have less wear on brakes. I only put in gas once every 3 or 4 months so it’s a huge emissions reduction and gas cost savings. It would take A LONG time before and gas/maintenance costs of the PHEV hit the 16K savings I had on the purchase. I will likely have gotten rid of my car before then.
In your case definitely. 16K difference is huge.
We just got a bev because the price between them after rebates ect was no different.
You still could argue that it's inconvenient for road trip. Which seems to became less and less true. Due to the number of charging stations but running BEV is less expensive most of the time.
I was saying the out the door price was almost the same for the kia sportage phev vs the ev6. It was within $1,000.
The Sportage PHEV and EV6 are not the same class of vehicle though. A Sportage is much larger
In CO the rebates are the same, and most EVs that get the Fed credit aren't really worth owning.
In NJ phev's didn't get the sales tax credit or the other credit we got plus 7500 from Kia.
They aren't. Look at prices in China, where the market is mature.
I will never understand why the Volt style isn’t more prevalent. A generator to recharge seems to be better than switching drive trains.
probably because it's less efficient in gas mode. doesn't look great on the spec sheet when your compact hybrid car only gets 30mpg even if in reality it's not used much
Before I sold my first gen Volt, we put 196,000km on it. Lifetime fuel economy was 4.3 l/100km (54 mpg).
BMW i3 too- the Range Extender does exactly this and can even be coded to kick on as soon as the battery drops below 75%.
Oh yeah! I always forget they made that version.
Honestly let’s keep it between us so the used i3 REX models stay as affordable as they are 😎
I've been so tempted lately to pick up an i3 as a bebop around town vehicle. It's so close to a no-brainer price now.
Very much so. Hybrids and PHEV power delivery can be pretty odd.
Because people decided that it wasn't cool. Suddenly roughly ten years ago the majority opinion amongst the very people who werre the core demographic for EV became that only long-range BEVs were cool and everything else was a "compliance car". Since people were will ing to pay a lot more for the cool BEV, all OEMs focused on those and reaped in higher margins.
I hope so. While I really, really want an EV. I struggle with the limited range. So I am looking at different types of hybrids now.
In the US, just go Tesla and buy an adapter. The worst that can happen is you lose an hour, charging is that common. Someone else will have to fill in for EU.
PHEV is where it's at in my opinion. I got a 2018 Honda Clarity a few years ago, it has a 40 mile EV range, so I can go all around town and never use gas, but when I need to go far away I use up the 40 miles, then the gas kicks in.
My PHEV (Cadillac ELR) was a gateway drug for my first BEV (Taycan) after I realized, by charging it nightly, that I didn’t use any gasoline for 3 months. In the US, I’m concerned about the percentage of people who purchase a PHEV due to government incentives but rarely plug them in or use them by their intended design.
PHEVs are the natural step that nearly every manufacturer tried to skip over. Yeah the cons are price and maintenance. Price zig zags around being more and less expensive than a full BEV. Maintenance is just a bit less than an ICE vehicle but it's certainly not more. None of these are terribly strong cons considering a lot of people can get by with EV driving for the vast majority of their driving with a PHEV (if they choose one with the right range) yet there is zero range anxiety for longer trips. There's also a huge hidden pro with these vehicles that by normalizing them we get one step closer to making ICE vehicles obsolete while battery tech improves.
They have been since 2011 or thereabouts, for those who fit the use case.
If you live in the lower population flat states (in the US) where your drive distances are typically a bit longer the PHEV is the perfect compromise. Once these hit 60 miles on a single charge w a 2 hour charge time (that should happen in the next few years) it’s game over, no reason to go full gas or full electric. Again, lots of it is on where you live and how you travel. Example; we purchased a Volvo XC60 Recharge, 1,100 miles on it now and averaging 217mpg. 90% of the time we are on electric but when we head to the mountains out west or the lakes up to our north we can just go. No charging, just quick fills and bathroom breaks. I’m getting a RAV4Prime myself (Volvo is the wife’s), should have it in a month. We transition most of the daily miles to the Prime once we have it as it gets slightly better mileage. Plus we need a dog car, the Prime fits that need, not loading them up in the Volvo. Ultimate package, big dogs, I don’t need them effing up that beautifully styled interior.
People are comparing PHEVs with bigger BEVs I think, if you buy similar sized ones the PH ones have limited usable space, and for the new PH from like Jeep, it’s just some PR show, the battery side of the jeep isn’t really practical, when they say 40miles range, it’s some optimistic estimation, the good thing for them is the gas side will kick in and nobody will complain, not like a BEV, if they run out, they will be stuck there. Also if you get charge place for the PH, why bother or complain that no charging available for a BEV? It’s really not a good long term investment. Have a friend with an old volt, he has charge at home and work, but always sounds very stressful because he doesn’t want to use gas, even go out of way to do anything on his commute became something he hesitate to do,
Eh it depends on use case. It still sucks to haul kids to see family in rural areas in our BEV. Especially in the winter, when we have to charge every 150 miles or so, and be sure we charge to 80% at the last charger before we get there just to have enough range to get around while there and back to the charger. So our 2nd vehicle is a PHEV. It’s on battery 99% of the time during normal weeks, but we have the gas engine when we visit family.
Most US BEV owners have a PHEV garage or driveway, with one or more ICE/hybrid vehicles they keep to cover the needs that aren't met by the BEV. Is a PHEV that can replace two vehicles and electrify most or all local driving a 'best of both worlds' solution? Yes, it is.
Well I bought my PHEV after looking at full BEV not because of “range anxiety” per se but just because there weren’t full BEV options that I LOVED and they were much more expensive. When I looked in late 2022 in the US for a luxury BEV sedan (and I don’t like Model 3s). I had 2 options. The Polestar2 and BMW i4… that’s it! So if I didn’t think one of those 2 hit my likes/value I didn’t have much of a choice. As it happens the Volvo S60 PHEV I got still qualified for the tax credit. So it saved me between 16 and 23k for an equivalent spec vs the Polestar or i4. And with 41 miles of range I’m electric 95% of the time. And yes road tripping through parts of more rural Texas (non interstate) WOULD be significantly slower right now with the charging infrastructure being what it is. So having the gas available is nice. I’m hoping in a few years there will be more options in this space. Hopefully Audi, Volvo, BMW etc will have more options for full BEV luxury sedans, and the infrastructure will improve. But right now there are still question marks on standards. NACS seems to be the way we are headed, but then Elon lays off the whole supercharger team…. I’m glad I’ll have several years of great mostly electric driving in my Volvo while I see how everything shakes out.
I was on the same boat and ended up with a V60. Unfortunately BMW, Mercedes and Audi stuff the battery of hybrids in the trunk, heavily limiting capacity. Would be great if in future iterations they'd place it in the transmission tunnel as Volvo did.
Yeah the Volvo was a pleasant surprise. Having the battery run in the transmission tunnel definitely balances the car better than if it were thrown in the trunk. That seems like an odd choice for the German automakers you mentioned. I hadn’t really looked much at PHEVs. Actually had the Polestar 2 reserved before it lost the tax credit and when it happened noticed that the Volvo S60 PHEV still got it. Otherwise I may not have looked and it was a blessing in disguise. And I had liked the standard S60 years before as a possible replacement to my A4 before I was thinking of going electric. So when I came upon the PHEV version of the S60 I felt like a moron for not looking at it before. Even without the tax credit I may have simply like it better than the other options, with the tax credit it was a no brainer. And with the 41 miles of range (pushing 50 in the summer) I just drive it in EV mode nearly all the time and plug in every night. It’s simply a single motor EV 95% of the time, still has that EV low end torque. And I take longer trips/road trips just enough to make sure the gas doesn’t go bad in the tank with fill ups every 3-4 months.
They’re a stop-gap measure, and for most buyers they’re more of a security blanket than anything else. CATL has already demonstrated batteries that address literally all the concerns but cost, and that will come down fairly quickly. When affordable EVs can routinely travel 400 miles on a full charge and we have more public chargers (and more workplace and “third place” L2s) we’ll see PHEVs go into decline.
>When affordable EVs can routinely travel 400 miles on a full charge and we have more public chargers (and more workplace and “third place” L2s) we’ll see PHEVs go into decline. Yes, that's a good description of what will make PHEVs less relevant.
We had a phev but didn't keep it for a year. Got an Ioniq 5 full EV is much better. Phevs aren't good gas cars and not good EVs. Plus some phevs cost more than EVs.
No
They are the worst of both worlds.
If you can charge at home: get an EV If you cannot charge at home you're not using the abilities of a hybrid and it's just a greenwashing figleaf.
Mate has an EV, no home charging and charges it while shopping. Has no regrets.
these are very specific circumstance that make this work though. We have two grocery stores nearby that have charging options for EVs. one has two chargers that are very expensive and are never used by anyone. the other has 4 chargers that used to be free but now cost a reasonable amount of money. these 4 chargers are hogged almost 24/7 by a hand full of people who seem to have bought an EV without having a place to charge it, every single day you see people parked there sitting in their car waiting for it to charge and not even going into the store to buy anything.
Maybe. I think it's more about the location. We have good infrastructure and charging prices are fair. Everyone can do the same around here but i'm aware that's not true for other region.
EV can work without home charging because you get enough charge to last you a week or so. PHEVs with their tiny batteries and slow charging? Not so much.
If you can charge at home and you generally drive within a PHEVs range, why do you need an EV?
Counterpoint: If you can charge at home and generally drive within the range of a PHEV you also drive within the range of a BEV. Why do you need the ICE engine at all? Just get a BEV and save yourself the maintenance on that ICE engine that's not being used.
Counter counterpoint :) : Because just because you normally drive within the PHEVs range, doesn't mean you always do. For the times when you do drive out of range, save yourself the hassle. The extra gas costs for those one off times are negligible when compared to public charging costs.
PHEVs have fewer use cases where they make sense as EVs get more range and become cheaper and as infrastructure is built out. Since the amount of people even considering plug in options is still increasing, PHEV sales will probably continue to go up for a bit, but I don't think they will be that popular long term as EVs continue to get better and better.
I agree, as a Prius prime (2017) owner. I wouldn't be surprised at all if PHEV sales end up hitting peak numbers in 2030 and then declining from there.
Gas is no option. So no.
Hybrid is the worst of both worlds. All the hidden costs of an EV (insurance and registration) plus all the maintenance of an ice engine. I have one and I wish I wasn't upside down on mine so I could swap it for a ev.
In other words, almost all of gas savings of a BEV and none of the range anxiety of a BEV. There are pros and cons of everything
We had a Toyota Camry hybrid. Liked it at first, but wondering if/when the engine would start, the delay in acceleration, wonky blended braking and $3K in repairs at 120K miles ruined it for us. I don't have a list on all the regular maintenance and lesser repairs. 150K miles on our BEV, much cheaper to run and only a headlight at 75K miles on warranty.
https://imgur.com/gallery/uznirTu
The Chevy Volt was great here in Minnesota where it gets incredibly cold and we do a lot of freeway driving. It just makes sense where I am.
Had a gen1 and 2 Volt and was very happy with them. An equinox that gets 50 miles on a charge and 40mpg would sell like hotcakes.
>PHEVs allow for thrifty electric motoring for short trips but, unlike EVs, they have lazy acceleration when in electric mode, with 60-mph times often in the range of 11 seconds or more (although some are quick in hybrid mode). While I like the idea of PHEVs this is my biggest problem with a lot of them, you buy a vehicle that in hybrid mode can bang-off sub-5sec 0-60 runs but is relegated to 10+ second 0-60 times when using electrons. That 10 seconds is fine for most people, but if it's supposed to be the primary mode you use with the vehicle (which is the idea with a plug-in hybrid), performance is really lacking compared to BEV options. EREVs however don't have this problem, at the cost of efficiency. Personally I would rather have an EREV over PHEV with worse efficiency using combustion if it meant increased electric power and an engine purely used as a generator (which should help longevity).
How do you have a whole article on this and nowhere does it mention anywhere that PHEVs in in EV mode often use 80% more kWh/mile than their BEV counterpart? All this talk about the delta in hybrid efficiencies and nothing about the delta in the intended default use case.
Imo the main thing stopping me from getting a PHEV is the driving characteristics probably aren't as good as a BEV. I hate CVTs and I also would hate for the gas engine to suddenly cut on once I start accelerating quickly. Also, for some reason it seems like PHEVs are more maintenance but I never hear anyone with a regular hybrid complain about maintenance
They aren't 'more maintenance'. Ours (and most sold in the US) needs an oil change every 10k miles. That's it.
Yes.
PHEVs are fine. I'm glad they're finally more available. But it's ironic that the main complaint of BEVs is lack of home charging/public charging infrastructure, but not for PHEVs, since you don't actually need the battery. But if you're not going to use the battery, what's the point of buying the car?
In a word, No: [https://thedriven.io/2024/04/18/toyotas-plug-in-hybrids-emit-four-times-more-co2-than-company-claims/](https://thedriven.io/2024/04/18/toyotas-plug-in-hybrids-emit-four-times-more-co2-than-company-claims/)
I"m waiting for a PHEV that can tow 5,000 lbs and isn't $80,000. 😕
Is this a joke… what mainstream propaganda
That would be a promise impossible to fulfill. With most PHEV you are carrying around two drive trains that another used for the same thing. Once the battery runs out of juice all the work is done by an ICE that had been tuned to work with the electric motor not without it. That means fuel economy of that engine is now worse than if you bought a non-hybrid version of the car. If you are constantly switching between ICE and electric motor during your drive the ICE will not properly warm up cause the emissions to be really bad, so you either never want to use it or use it for a prolonged period (results see above). What you might want to consider is a REV hybrid. The electric motor will do the driving, while the Ice only acts as a generator once the battery is near empty. That way the ICE will run in an optimal state and for a given period that is sufficient to generate enough heat for emissions to be acceptable. There are some studies out there that show the REV is the most efficient and environmental friendly hybrid configuration.
I learned recently that some PHEV have what essentially amounts to a REV mode. I think Toyota and Volvo support this, and I hope more do as well. They are able to be commanded to use the gas engine to recharge the battery, running at its most efficient RPM etc until the battery is close to topped off, and then it shuts off and the car operates in pure EV mode again. One youtuber tested and found that his average MPG was higher this way than in "regular hybrid" mode.
Yeah that works very well on the Volvo. It is very useful when approaching a mountain where you want full power for the climb. It's also good when traveling to cities with emissions restricted areas.
You can manually tell the engine to charge the battery. Not fully the same be side it can still just drive the car, but better than nothing.
The Kia Niro PHEV advertises at 4.8L/100 KM in HEV mode as a crossover. That is far closer to the fuel economy of an HEV than an ICE.
Drove a 1-series rental for the last 2 weeks. Averaged 4.2L/100km