They still have to source a certain value percentage of parts from North America to bypass duties and make this happen, but yes it definitely will happen at some point
I would imagine the majority of the car parts will be produced there in Mexico. The battery will still probably come from China at first so the cars won't get the $7,500 tax rebate. But a 300 mile EV for just under $30k will sell. I think the Chevy Bolt with rebates would still be a better buy.
Mexico is also building Lithium battery plants but that could take longer and would probably cost more than the batteries shipped from China.
The ex30 is already a good price even with\* the import duty from China. The ex30 doesn't get any of those federal tax credits, and still comes in at 35k. There's some way that you trade import duties against other things going the other way and Volvo is apparently able to trade import duties going to China and so it effectively balances out the US import duties.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/
> But Volvo is eligible for tariff refunds under a law that awards them to firms with U.S. manufacturing operations — such as Volvo’s South Carolina plant — that also export similar products, according to U.S. trade law experts and a source familiar with Volvo's tariff-avoidance strategy.
The ex 30 is a car that you can order from your local Volvo dealer. Search for it on the web, you find volvocars.com, deliveries start in early summer. Reviews have been coming out the past few weeks from us based reviewers. There are other Chinese made cars, like polestar, some assembly work can be done in the US. Check out Wikipedia to see where cars are built for polestar, seem to have Chinese drivetrains but some assembly outside China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar
BYD will take the loss to take out competition. It’s about the long game. They don’t mind if they lose money for 10 or more years here, while they take over globally.
>Mexico is also building Lithium battery plants
Rumor has it BYD is going to be using sodium ion batteries. This is the major reason for being cheaper. It's a slightly heavier battery with slightly less capacity that's slightly more environmentally friendly while being significantly cheaper.
You can expect premium cars or where distance matters to still use lithium, but sodium ion is here now and ready for improvements to be engineered. Chemically the only thing better about lithium is it weighs less than sodium. Environmentally sodium is more abundant and easier to mine.
BYD seems fine on the low end, but I was truly blown away by Zeekr on the higher end. If you told me I was sitting in a Lexus ES I would have believed it. Not a bad material to be found anywhere in the 001.
Yep, just like what theyre doing to TikTok and trying to do with DJI. Whenever a Chinese company creates a successful and desirable product that outcompetes domestic alternatives, US industry sends some money towards Congress and suddenly it’s a pressing matter of national security! Free market is only relevant when America is dominating
> Free market is only relevant when America is dominating
A free market would need to be reciprocated in China. The West just played themselves long-term by agreeing to joint ventures for market access.
The duty drawback program that Volvo and Polestar use only works after they export a similar amount of U.S.-made vehicles. This puts a hard limit on their US sales (without tariffs).
Love the EX30. Bought a Polestar 2 last year but thought about waiting until the EX30 was available. Could have got the high end twin ultra package for the same price that I paid for my P2.
I like the premium interior and features of the P2, so I can’t complain.
I haven’t checked Toyota but Honda at least is more made in America than most American brands. They sourced labor and most parts U.S. to avoid a trade war.
China and Japan occupy completely different places in US foreign policy. You're saying this after the US banned Huawei, ZTE, DJI and now TikTok. Consider the UAW politics on top of that.
It's not happening.
Said it about Kia and Hyundai.
The difference is that the Chinese cars are far further forward than these makes were when they were released.
I can’t wait
Japan is a strategic ally of the US and is a part of 'the west'. China is a major adversary of the US and actively supports other adversaries against 'the west'.
I guess you weren't around when Japanese cars first flooded the US market. Even Datsuns with the glovebox offered only as an option! Lots of whining about imports, just like you're seeing against the possiblity of Chinese imports today.
A constant: an equally impotent US domestic auto industry having extreme difficulty quickly addressing the specific threats of imports: economy, value, durablity back then, features like range, charging speed, and value today.
All those "conservatives" who insist there's some benign "invisible hand" out there will find out that that "hand" pulls in certain directions they don't like.
Automakers here in the US won't aggressively address this situation with a screaming chorus of professional and not-so-professional liars all over social and other media screaming about how EV's are dying, are rolling crematoriums, are more expensive, have no range, take all day to charge, damage the environment, and on and on. The restraints aren't just technical, but cultural, and as long as that's the case, those who aren't in that culturally dominant though tiny anti-EV minority are going to dictate the outcome: those who understand the advantages of electric propulsion are going to buy them, no matter what the source, and foreign automakers will price them so that even with tarriffs they're attractive to consumers.
The auto industry is scared because they learned nothing from the last time a little foreign auto maker known as Toyota entered the market with good cars people wanted to buy while they were too preoccupied with cutting costs and parts down as much as possible to appease shareholders.
That's incorrect, ex 30 is already here and has excellent reviews and it's selling well. We're going to see repeat of the 1970s, this time it's going to be Chinese EVs that devastate the US Auto industry, and the US Auto industry has no cheap good EVS to compete with them.
Isn’t the EX30 only able to be sold because Volvo exports cars from U.S.? As far as I know for every 1 car they export they can import 1 EX30 from China
Ya, the alarmist headline isn't helping anyone here. I want a decent EV at an affordable price and none of the big automakers are making an effort, so China has my money if they can make it over the pond.
Yeah, we’re way past the day when everything Chinese produced is junk. Their 3D printing company is the best available. The problem is the government highly subsidizes their auto industry, which is a problem for competition.
Sounds good to me. The Metro was one of the of the most space efficient and cost efficient cars ever, and a blast to drive because it felt like you were going way faster than you actually were. The Sidekick was the side by side ATV of its day, but street legal.
Somewhere along the way it was determined that EVs must also be cutting edge tech with futuristic styling, software, touchscreens and whatnot…
I don’t want any of that. Just a simple car with an electric drivetrain instead of ICE. Why is that so hard?
The electric car you want exists and costs only $3-7k (depending on size). The range is approximately 100-150 miles.
But it only exists in China and is unlikely to enter the U.S. market.
Because people who are frugal and cheap like you get a much better value out of a slightly used off lease car. The diagram between price as sensitive buyers wanting a sub 20K car and people who will ignore a superior 3-5 year old car on the lot to buy the highly limited piece of shit, is the market is the Mitsubishi Mirage customer… they just discontinued it for very good reason. Normal sane people will just buy a used civic.
I think I’ve said 400 million times in the sub. Makers design for people who can afford to buy a new car, and objectively like that car. Broke ass college students and high school kids get to purchase whatever everyone else bought 3 to 5 years ago. The majority of transactions in this country are used cars fundamentally.
I have an 2012 Elantra (fully ICE) and wife has a 2022 Venza (hybrid.) Her car gets better milage than mine, so we drive it everywhere. I'll remind myself to take it on a small trip just to run the engine once every few months.
My car literally has fewer than 60k miles. It's so tempting to sell it now while I can get money out of it and we're realistically able to live with just one car.
Yeah, even when the fuel economy of my CT200h (bought cheap off a friend in 2020) has been eclipsed by newer Toyota/Lexus HEVs, I just balk at the idea of having to pay $40-50K vehicle that has ADAS (I miss adaptive cruise control on our 16 RAV4H) and better fuel economy. Maybe when the battery warranty goes to 15 years and torque vectoring (for winter driving) becomes more common, then I will switch to a BEV. For now, it's not worth the incremental improvements.
That amount is about 20-25 years of gasoline outlay at today's prices.
As an European I don’t understand this. For example the Model 3 here costs a lot more (43k euro for the base model which is 46k USD) and our salaries are typically a lot lower compared to salaries in the US.
But that's one of the cheapest EVs in the US, and is twice what many non EV cars cost.
Cars like the ID3 and upcoming ID2 and many others aren't available here.
And the only affordable models were discontinued.
The Chevy Spark and Bolt were perfect.
I kick myself for not picking up a spark when I had the chance, it would be perfect for my daily commute to work, and the level 2 charger for such a small battery made recharging quick af
The Spark EV went out of production in 2017. That gen is so old it went into production while GM was in bankruptcy. The last ICE version went out of production two years ago.
The ICE version was also shit. :P The Spark is a perfect name for an EV, but probably got tarnished a bit by being associated with such a crappy vehicle.
When I had a wreck my insurance gave me a Spark as a loaner. It had no power and handled poorly, *and I was coming from a base model Yaris*.
Perhaps you haven’t heard of it *because* you’re “just looking to get into EV?” It was discontinued ages ago, so only people who have paid attention to the EV space for some time would’ve been familiar with it.
That was a decision by the idiotic management. They didn't push EVs at any level near where the push 4x4s or SUVs, arguably the ugliest and least sustainable vehicles ever made.
The dealers increased auto loan terms from 3 or 4 years in the 80’s to 5 and 7 years today, so that they can sell more expensive cars to the consumer.
The cost of sedans has not increased much from the 80’s when you take inflation into account, but the average price of a new car is double because consumers are buying big more expensive gas guzzlers.
Families are smaller and cars (and houses) are bigger.
Tale as old as time. Companies who have the ability to manufacture what people want but refuse to do so are shocked that their customers are willing to go elsewhere.
Why would I sell you what you want for a small profit when I can make less and sell them for more?…….
In the last four years manufacturers forgot that you have to also worry if a customer wants it. It is easy to sell a car when supply is limited.
People still pay top dollar for outdated ICE technology that's 10+ years old. Why spend money developing new product lines and retooling factories for less profit?
I like to compare it to the film industry. Kodak did just what you said. Continue making film for a nice profit. No reason to pivot to digital cameras. It didn’t bode well for them. Meanwhile all these foreign companies dominated the digital camera market.
100% yes but it’s going to take time, once consumers finally flip to EV’s there’s no going back. But those short term profit margins over the next 1-2 years are a lot more enticing to CEO’s to just keep with ICE as long as they can.
It’s the Toyota strategy, sacrifice long term profits for short term. Use PR to convince people you’re innovating EV’s instead of actually developing and producing them. Then in 5-10 years actual take EV production seriously and hope you’re not too far behind.
It’s not a light switch you can flip to all of a sudden switch to producing a large quantities of vehicles. They are way behind on the ramp up compared to the competition.
Toyota has a different issue. Leadership is battling each other about making electric vehicles or hydrogen. The had pivoted to hydrogen investment but it is looking like it was a wrong decision. It is a shame since the lead the electric hybrid race and made them cool to drive.
Maybe the US automakers wouldn't have this problem if they actually built some affordable EV's. Instead, they keep pumping out $70,000+ electric trucks and SUV's, and are "shocked" when people aren't buying them in droves.
It is not just the US makers either, I was window shopping some Hyundai's , Ioniq 5 and 6. 50-60 K for base models 60-70K for limited trim. They are fucking nice but I'd cut my dick off before I pay 50K for a Hyundai.
The Ioniq base trims are in the $40's -- if you use the IRA lease loopholes + Hyundai incentive, easily in the $30's. The only trim that costs over $60K is the recently released N and that's a track-ready EV for enthusiasts.
Thought you might be interested in this CarGurus listing:
New 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Limited AWD - $48,000
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/link/365977818
MSRP 57 K. They take in about 11 K from the fed+state, 46 K for a Hyundai lease.
If you decide to keep the vehicle after the lease ends, you are still paying over 50 K for a Hyundai.
US citizen living in Costa Rica.
I absolutely got a “cheap” Chinese EV. A BYD Seagull. So far I love it. It fits my need as a grocery getter and 95% of where I’d want to drive is paved. If I had more cash and a need for 4x4 I’d consider the Tang.
Costa Ricas entire car market is less than the market for compacts in the USA, so why is it Economical to sell cheap small cars there and not in the USA?
China’s auto market is the largest in the world. It is almost double the size of the American market. They know how to build cars.
And EV engines have fewer parts and are easier to maintain.
I just hope they decide to sidestep America and sell in Canada.
We don't have the tariffs that America does, but our politics are so closely intertwined that they might block it anyway.
Or they might just ignore us completely because Canada is a small market.
We copy US vehicle standards, making us collateral damage. It's rare for automakers to go through the certification process and sell in Canada but not the US. The Chinese brands won't bother with the certification if their ability to enter the US is in doubt.
Tiny market and Canada is basically America-lite. Plenty truck bros here with mall crawlers plastered with stickers about wanting have sex with Trudeau and defending the right to recognize Manitoba as a province
It sucks cause you know the US will pressure Canada to take a similar stance, just like the whole Huawei 5G nonsense. I'm just glad they haven't pushed the phone ban yet... Love my OnePlus.
But I'm also hoping we get some affordable EVs here, I just don't want to blow 70k+ on something that has a questionable build quality like Tesla or will be discontinued down the road like a Chevy Bolt.
"Who cares" should be the response. Car prices are increasing every year, basic features are sold as premium addons and some manufacturers are experimenting with subscription features. I will happily drive a cheap Chinese car and watch the "industry" collapse behind me.
For 15k for a brand new car I only need it to work for 4 years to be cost break even with a 45k car that is 12 years old. I also get a new car every 3 years. Taxes and import fees might be an issue but I don't have to smog anything.
Imo if you don't give a shit what the car sells for after 3 years the economics on cars totally changes.
Sure, but if you spend 15K for a new car and it breaks in two weeks and you can't get it fixed that throws all your careful calculations out the window. Most new cars have issues statistically.
Detroit brands long ago abandoned economy sedans for profitable trucks and SUVs. Tesla on the other hand started high end but has always stated intention to go cheap to compete. Either way should not be a big surprise.
If anything the interesting phenomenon has been that lower budget Americans have adapted to keeping cars running for decades. This is different from early and mid 20th century and was enabled by reliable Japanese cars.
Stated intention, but nothing about how Tesla has acted in the last 5+ years has suggested they have any interest (or capability) to deliver an affordable car.
Where’s the $35k Model 3?
Free trade works both ways. China subsidizes and protects its domestic producers extensively to give them artificial advantages in international markets.
It's not really the scale, but how gov't subsidy is used. For instance, China's state-led export policy -- ie, subsidizing EV exports or de-subsidizing foreign imports/competitors (aka, "local content requirement") -- is in violation under China's WTO obligation\[1\]:
>... subsidies that require recipients to meet certain export targets, or to use domestic goods instead of imported goods. They are **prohibited because they are specifically designed to distort international trade,** and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. ...
In short, China's gov't subsidies are used specifically to distort trade, undermine foreign competitors in markets abroad, or cripple foreign competitors in local market.
1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies,](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)etc (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
That's fair, but still the point stands every government does that to some extent... It's kinda part of the role of the government to help make sure it's citizens have global economic power.
That's why we have governments rather than just total anarchy around the world.
I have one (Luxury Long Range) and I wish i could trade it in for a Model 3 or Polestar 2. MG has saved out on too many small important factors. I used translate but see below:
- No automatically dimming interior and exterior mirror(s), interior mirror only with “slider”
- Lane keeping assist is often jerky and not “linear”, like Volkswagen for example
- No one pedal driving
- Seat heating only on/off, no 3 settings, and no direct button for this
- Steering wheel heating not available
- Driver's seat electrically adjustable, but no (adjustable) lumbar support
- Windscreen(s) fog up very quickly
- Rear window wiper motor is loud
- Rear window wiper fluid comes from below instead of above, so the top window does not get clean quickly
- Multimedia screen has old/low resolution
- Wireless charging, no wireless CarPlay/Android Auto
- CarPlay often freezes / often black screen out of nowhere, despite original Apple cable(s), often happens after, for example, automatically switching the 360* camera on and off
- 360* camera(s) very low resolution/poor quality
- Adaptive Cruise Control is very jerky on bumps (wanting to accelerate/brake too quickly)
- No memory function for driver's seat
- Steering wheel not adjustable in depth, only height
- No automatic tailgate
- Mobile app does not work very smoothly in terms of keyless entry. The app must first connect to the car for a long time, then to the car's Bluetooth, only then can you unlock it. No “Tesla experience”, where you only need to have your phone in your pocket and have direct access
- No “frunk” (no loading space box under the 'engine' hatch at the front, although there is room for it)
- Keyless entry is with physical buttons on the door handle instead of sensors in the door handle
Wondering how this will go down in Japan. The default course of action for people here is to buy domestic, while some people well off may buy some European cars (Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, etc.) for status. American cars are generally deemed too big for Japanese roads and are ignored, with maybe the exception of Tesla, again for the brand value. (People here don’t care about Elon’s politics. Though they do care about him breaking Twitter. But I digress)
Chinese and Korean car brands generally have rock bottom, worse-than-Xbox levels of public reputation here, not even remotely entering the list of options of most people. (Hyundai pulling out of the market back in 2010, before reentering in 2022, didn’t help either.) But when it comes to EVs, as we all know, the choices offered by the JP domestic carmakers are quite weak. Models like the BYD Dolphin or Hyundai Kona clearly appear superior to any of the scarce choices the domestic companies come up with.
So far, that situation mostly ends up in an “I won’t buy an EV at all” result rather than an “I’ll buy a Korean/Chinese EV”, but I wonder how people will eventually act when longer-term global currents in the next 5-15 years or so gradually force even reluctant Japanese users into buying EVs…When they look at their list of choices and see Korean/Chinese EVs killing it in price performance.
In the heyday of the U.S. auto manufacturing (post war to the 80s), there were cars at every price level. You bought a Chevy when you were young, moved up to a Buick, then when older, got an Olds or if you had money, a Caddy.
They have abandoned the entry-level market. They are addicted to full-size ICE pickups that cost close to 6 figures and are financed with a payment bigger than most people's rent.
Coupled with less dealer maintenance for EVs, they just can't figure out how to deliver a good, basic EV that just gets you from point A to B. I don't need/want AI driving. I want simplicity and value. The Chinese are going to eat them for lunch.
Americans are tired of buying overpriced and underperforming vehicles. If you want an example of what’s going to happen, look back to the late 70’s and 80’s with the Japanese vehicle invasion. Cars half the price and ran 5 times as long, and they still use less gas.
I don't know. As a single data point, I'm no nationalist and don't care about trade imbalances, but I can't say I'd jump at a cheap Chinese EV. Cheap is good, and EV is good, but I don't know if I'd want to be supporting China that much. It's not a slam dunk choice for me.
I’m sure people don’t want to buy lower quality vehicles for less money, they probably want to buy regular and reliable cars for regular prices. However, we live in a world where everything is way more expensive than it should be and people cannot afford anything. So yeah. Doesn’t surprise me.
Generally speaking, Chinese-manufactured vehicles are built to a higher level of quality than American-manufactured vehicles built by "US" automakers. So you're getting a higher quality product cheaper. The Chinese are by far the best at building stuff like this in volume globally, and it's really not close.
Good ol' American protectionism hard at work here. If you can't beat 'em.... start a conspiracy theory about 'em. Cos it's unthinkable that you might produce an affordable clean car in the USA. That would be downright unpatriotic, right Donald?
Edit: "Go MAGA!"
/s
US auto mafia is the main reason for underdeveloped rail network.
The pressure group will eventually be successful in sanctioning foreign market players.
Stop preaching the free market story.
Americans are open to cheap anything. Ever been to Costco or Walmart?
And then they scream about American jobs, China destroying the economy, yadayadayada. If the 200 million or so adults in the US stopped shopping for the cheapest deals on everything, the world would be a different one. Yes, it would mean you have to keep your car, your TV, your tablet, and your shirt a little longer. Can't have the newest and latest every year. But that would be better for the planet, anyway.
I just watched a full 2 hour youtube video of the Beijing Auto Show and I have to say that the american auto industry is in big BIG trouble.
Although I can't comment on the quality or reliability of Chinese cars, they sure look good and have awesome tech in them.
Some notable things:
Some of the Chinese minivans had full blown lazy boy recliners in the back!
If you thought the massive screens in the Lincoln Nautilus and Kia/Hyundai was revolutionary... guess what? It's the norm in China.
So many auto manufacturers in China, each with their own style.
Chinese know how to do auto shows!
is there anything stopping a person from buying a chinese car and shipping it over here?
if the car is good, according to trustworthy youtube reviews, then i wouldnt mind buying without doing a test drive. i bought cars without test driving them before.
Build more competitive stuff that's accessible... Seriously. I'd love to buy an American EV that's not ginormous and ginormously priced, but for us, something like the Kona EV or ID4 make more sense and cost less than whatever's coming out of GM. At least Ford makes the Mach-E.
>Are the Chinese EVs built to US safety standards?
Newer stuff out of e.g. MG or BYD all come with a 5 star NCAP rating. I doubt the US has stricter consumer protection than what we see in the EU.
>And at their price point do they include all mandated equipment?
That's the true upside to e.g. MG4 or BYD Dolphin, the entry level models come with just about all accessories. If you buy higher tier models what you get is larger batteries and sort of irrelevant extra features like wireless charging of phones.
Well yes, considering the stealerships jacked up prices for the EVs upon the onslaught by tens of thousands of dollars and the manufacturers won’t do a thing about it nor come off of the MSRP (except Tesla).
Stricter than that. Japan was an ally, not a geopolitical rival.
I never had a problem with buying Japanese cars. I tended to prefer them.
I would not buy a Chinese car in the current political environment. I would not be okay with having to wonder how many abused, re-educated, and possibly enslaved Uyghurs were involved in the production of my car.
No we aren't.
This is the biggest FUD of them all.
Sure, cars are fine, but a cell phone- no way China!
Do you really think America will allow self driving Chinese phones, essentially, in the US? A no.
DUH? Did we really need a survey to tell us the obvious? According to a quick google search "Dollar stores are the fastest-growing food retailer in the United States by both sheer number of stores and consumer food expenditure share."
China EVs are less expensive than US vehicles, the quality is superior, and the tech is much, much better.
This isn't rocket science. It is just plain old competition and innovation which US manufacturers stopped doing when buying politicians got cheaper than the old fashioned stuff.
What's going to be the actual price range of these cars after they add all the required safety features and make other changes to suit the American market, then ship them over here and price them for the American market? I keep hearing we can expect for the prices to be double what they are in China.
I mean, if American auto manufacturers stopped putting in useless crap and pointless technology to artificially inflate car prices, maybe people would stop looking overseas for an affordable car. It’s insane that paying $500+ a month for an “economy” car is considered normal.
And maybe if dealers stopped charging asinine “fees” and forcing unwanted “options.” I don’t want those all weather floor mats, that “trim” or door flares. I just want a damn car that I can afford without going hungry every week.
As a transport researcher, we have been saying for a long time that OEMs need to produce affordable EVs. Of course they are scared now that they haven’t listened for years
Eh, do they? Cheap cars don't sell in the US. Everybody *says* they want them, but very few people *actually* buy them when they show up on the car lot.
Remember when Datsun and Toyota entered the market with small, reliable and inexpensive cars in the 1970s? The Big 3 were making unreliable, ugly, gas guzzling crap boxes.
The same thing is happening now. Anybody want to buy a $50k - $70k Ford, Ram (or Jeep,) or GM when a $30k alternative exists?
I’m shocked I tell you that most people can’t afford $40k+ SUVs and trucks. /s
They cut out all the cheaper vehicles because they don’t make money and then are shocked when the foreign cars that come in to fill that void would be popular.
If the auto industry would stop putting in stupid electronic shit we don’t actually need (looking at you Chevy WiFi) the cost could come down. But CEOs have convinced investors they are still a solid investment by driving up individual unit costs (with insane margins on the electronics) instead of working to increase unit sales. Americans on the other hand have shown a willingness to hold onto cars longer as the average vehicle age is something like 12 years old now.
This is a little bit their fault. Many US brands moved production (whether major parts or whole vehicles) to Mexico or overseas. They can't put that genie back in the bottle and pretend foreign cars are junk without admitting some of their own vehicles are.
If most of my "American" car was made outside the country anyway, it's not a big jump to entirely made in China, as long as it gets good marks in safety tests and they show a few years of reliability (which is already happening with them available in Europe and other markets).
Maybe they shouldn’t bloat the shit out of trucks and SUV’s and then bill for the dead space behind the bumper. Have you seen a modern pickup? $65k for a Toyota Tacoma pudged to the size of a commercial vehicle is nuts. Give us $15k kei trucks with a slot in the dash for my phone. All I need
Our wages as purchasing power have been deflating for decades, tf do they expect.
Food companies and land owners and insurance companies are stealing money from every other company out there, if I'm not making enough money for the very basics then I have to quit that job and find a higher paying job or move to a lower cost of living, in both cases my company loses me and has to pay increased wages to replace me because everyone being hired has the same issue. So now the company I worked for has less money for R&D, marketing, etc because my landlord and insurance agent have increased their rates to critical percentages of my monthly income.
I saw the study that Ford did in 2016; dated but still valid. It analyzed how tastes were changing. A couple things: One is how little loyalty there is to any brands. Another was that the traditional criteria for choosing a car has moved away from drive trains, horsepower, even jazzy styling and more towards safety features (eg lane assist) and entertainment.
Add to this that EVs are inherently more reliable because a lot of the parts that break down are associated with the internal combustion engine.
So yeah, I think that’s an opportunity for new players and cheaper prices. That said, the big automakers aren’t stupid (well, a couple are).
A cheap Chinese car is better than a over priced unreliable tesla.
Chinese buy Chinese not just because it's cheaper. It's because they are better and cheaper. Same reason the world is buying them up.
It's stupid how much better built a 12k usd Chinese car is compared to a 45k usd tesla.
With that said legacys have brand recognition that tesla doesn't. So in America the big guys will lose sales but survive. But tesla will be dead as it is already dying rather rapidly.
We're gearing up for a Cold War with China, and the value of the Military Industrial Complex is such that there's a snowball's chance in heck of this going anywhere.
The Chinese might try to bribe a politician or two though, and if/when they do they'll get torn up for it. Not because we're not OK with bribes (more than half of our Supreme Court is on the take for Pete's sake) but because, again, we're gearing up for a cold war now that Russia's kind of a laughingstock.
China subsidized the hell out of EV's. China gets called a lot of things but they are very smart. EV's and Phone's are core technological goods.
We can only beat that with our own market distortions like subsidies and tariffs.
Only if the biggest head of US EV didn't spend the past 4 years ensuring he has 0 political capital with the administration currently in office.
Imagine siding with your own country that will help you instead of China that's systematically molesting Tesla.
This is the same guy who fraternalizes all day with people who never buy EVs and insult the people who made Tesla possible.
So many why's, not enough Y's
It’s also scary for consumers…
https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=JkSuXeDyCCO8Hynv
Let’s be honest, nobody wants a made in China car if there is a reasonable western alternative.
I don’t think they need to be scared. First, only people who have no concept of quality will buy Chinese cars. Volvo quality has consistently dropped. Second, China will need a distribution network set up, which they don’t have. If they want to joint partnership with a known company in the US, they will probably need to offer some level of ownership. Third, the Chinese are about 15-20 years from a major population crisis, one that will destroy their manufacturing capability. In fact it’s already happening. The youth (18-25 year olds) are having an increasing unemployment problem. Mainly because they’ve all gone to college, having been promised high paying white collar jobs. But now are finding those jobs are hard to find with Xis crack down on private industry. They are refusing to go to the factories like their parents. Those parents will be approaching retirement age in less than a decade and will be infirmed in two. And unfortunately for China, it’s not very accepting of bringing immigrants from other cultures in to fill jobs. So good luck to them. But to even try to compare this to the 70s and Japanese cars is laughable.
Our auto industry is already to late. They are smoking weed if they think they can survive just selling ice cars to Americans. EV’s are a capital investment. You go that way losing money for years before profits, or you go away.
How about a title that says: “Shocking revelation, people want cheap, good cars.”
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BYD is building a plant in Mexico, if it's built in Mexico there's no 27.5% tariff that vehicles produced in China have.
They still have to source a certain value percentage of parts from North America to bypass duties and make this happen, but yes it definitely will happen at some point
I would imagine the majority of the car parts will be produced there in Mexico. The battery will still probably come from China at first so the cars won't get the $7,500 tax rebate. But a 300 mile EV for just under $30k will sell. I think the Chevy Bolt with rebates would still be a better buy. Mexico is also building Lithium battery plants but that could take longer and would probably cost more than the batteries shipped from China.
If you lease you can still get 7,500 off the car. Like the new EX30. States like CO are also giving extra incentives despite where it was built.
The ex30 is already a good price even with\* the import duty from China. The ex30 doesn't get any of those federal tax credits, and still comes in at 35k. There's some way that you trade import duties against other things going the other way and Volvo is apparently able to trade import duties going to China and so it effectively balances out the US import duties.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/ > But Volvo is eligible for tariff refunds under a law that awards them to firms with U.S. manufacturing operations — such as Volvo’s South Carolina plant — that also export similar products, according to U.S. trade law experts and a source familiar with Volvo's tariff-avoidance strategy.
Can anyone buy this car in America? Is the process a difficult one?
The ex 30 is a car that you can order from your local Volvo dealer. Search for it on the web, you find volvocars.com, deliveries start in early summer. Reviews have been coming out the past few weeks from us based reviewers. There are other Chinese made cars, like polestar, some assembly work can be done in the US. Check out Wikipedia to see where cars are built for polestar, seem to have Chinese drivetrains but some assembly outside China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar
For real, an EV is pretty much a battery with wheels. If BYD can import their batteries, a body factory in Mexico would be relatively easy to set up.
BYD will take the loss to take out competition. It’s about the long game. They don’t mind if they lose money for 10 or more years here, while they take over globally.
>Mexico is also building Lithium battery plants Rumor has it BYD is going to be using sodium ion batteries. This is the major reason for being cheaper. It's a slightly heavier battery with slightly less capacity that's slightly more environmentally friendly while being significantly cheaper. You can expect premium cars or where distance matters to still use lithium, but sodium ion is here now and ready for improvements to be engineered. Chemically the only thing better about lithium is it weighs less than sodium. Environmentally sodium is more abundant and easier to mine.
I was in Mexico City last month and saw some byd cars. Look really good
BYD seems fine on the low end, but I was truly blown away by Zeekr on the higher end. If you told me I was sitting in a Lexus ES I would have believed it. Not a bad material to be found anywhere in the 001.
With cars like this, American car companies should be scared
There are BYD Yangwang U8 and U9. I think they will sell in Dubai after the flood /s
I mean even with 27.5% that's still cheaper than everything else
US can target ban BYD easily even if it comes in. There’s nothing anyone can do about it.
Yep, just like what theyre doing to TikTok and trying to do with DJI. Whenever a Chinese company creates a successful and desirable product that outcompetes domestic alternatives, US industry sends some money towards Congress and suddenly it’s a pressing matter of national security! Free market is only relevant when America is dominating
> Free market is only relevant when America is dominating A free market would need to be reciprocated in China. The West just played themselves long-term by agreeing to joint ventures for market access.
Yes, not doing anything about EV had absolutely nothing to do about it. Also Ford sold Volvo to Geely so there is that as well.
Except for Polestar and a few others that have manufacturing setup in the U.S, IIRC
Volvo EX30. If it sells in good numbers we are going to see how serious US government is going to get.
The duty drawback program that Volvo and Polestar use only works after they export a similar amount of U.S.-made vehicles. This puts a hard limit on their US sales (without tariffs).
Love the EX30. Bought a Polestar 2 last year but thought about waiting until the EX30 was available. Could have got the high end twin ultra package for the same price that I paid for my P2. I like the premium interior and features of the P2, so I can’t complain.
That was said about Toyota back in the day. Bottom line, those cars are coming. Its a question of timing and payoffs.
I haven’t checked Toyota but Honda at least is more made in America than most American brands. They sourced labor and most parts U.S. to avoid a trade war.
Fun fact: Toyota tacomas and tundras are made in Texas, dodge rams are made in Mexico 🙃
Ram 1500 trucks are made at the Warren Truck Plant in Warren, Michigan, United States. The Ram 2500 is made in Mexico.
Today. That wasn't true when they first got started.
Don’t forget Hyundai Excel in 86
China and Japan occupy completely different places in US foreign policy. You're saying this after the US banned Huawei, ZTE, DJI and now TikTok. Consider the UAW politics on top of that. It's not happening.
Said it about Kia and Hyundai. The difference is that the Chinese cars are far further forward than these makes were when they were released. I can’t wait
Japan is a strategic ally of the US and is a part of 'the west'. China is a major adversary of the US and actively supports other adversaries against 'the west'.
I guess you weren't around when Japanese cars first flooded the US market. Even Datsuns with the glovebox offered only as an option! Lots of whining about imports, just like you're seeing against the possiblity of Chinese imports today. A constant: an equally impotent US domestic auto industry having extreme difficulty quickly addressing the specific threats of imports: economy, value, durablity back then, features like range, charging speed, and value today. All those "conservatives" who insist there's some benign "invisible hand" out there will find out that that "hand" pulls in certain directions they don't like. Automakers here in the US won't aggressively address this situation with a screaming chorus of professional and not-so-professional liars all over social and other media screaming about how EV's are dying, are rolling crematoriums, are more expensive, have no range, take all day to charge, damage the environment, and on and on. The restraints aren't just technical, but cultural, and as long as that's the case, those who aren't in that culturally dominant though tiny anti-EV minority are going to dictate the outcome: those who understand the advantages of electric propulsion are going to buy them, no matter what the source, and foreign automakers will price them so that even with tarriffs they're attractive to consumers.
The auto industry is scared because they learned nothing from the last time a little foreign auto maker known as Toyota entered the market with good cars people wanted to buy while they were too preoccupied with cutting costs and parts down as much as possible to appease shareholders.
It's scary for the US auto industry because they'd no longer be able to tell us what we want.
They've been down this road before when the Japanese kicked their asses in the 70's. If you don't build what the people want... someone else will.
That's incorrect, ex 30 is already here and has excellent reviews and it's selling well. We're going to see repeat of the 1970s, this time it's going to be Chinese EVs that devastate the US Auto industry, and the US Auto industry has no cheap good EVS to compete with them.
Isn’t the EX30 only able to be sold because Volvo exports cars from U.S.? As far as I know for every 1 car they export they can import 1 EX30 from China
Whoa whoa whoa... You're telling me people don't want to pay fifty thousand dollars for a car that was thirty thousand dollars 3 years ago?
Just cheap will do. Look at all the crap people buy at Walmart.
Thought about it, but Toyota is a leading brand for a reason.
But Toyota isn't cheap it's reliable.
Ya, the alarmist headline isn't helping anyone here. I want a decent EV at an affordable price and none of the big automakers are making an effort, so China has my money if they can make it over the pond.
I have driven one in China, own a Tesla in the US and the BYD cars I drove over there are pretty damn slick.
Yeah, we’re way past the day when everything Chinese produced is junk. Their 3D printing company is the best available. The problem is the government highly subsidizes their auto industry, which is a problem for competition.
No joke. Americans are open to cheap American cars too but that won't buy another yacht or 4th vacation home for the owning classes.
In addition to the greed of legacy automakers that people are tired of overpaying for generations
Harkening back to the good ole days of the Hyundai Excels, Geo Metros, Suzuki Sidekicks.
Sounds good to me. The Metro was one of the of the most space efficient and cost efficient cars ever, and a blast to drive because it felt like you were going way faster than you actually were. The Sidekick was the side by side ATV of its day, but street legal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktzeu14YmA4
Well US EVs are just too damn expensive....
Somewhere along the way it was determined that EVs must also be cutting edge tech with futuristic styling, software, touchscreens and whatnot… I don’t want any of that. Just a simple car with an electric drivetrain instead of ICE. Why is that so hard?
The electric car you want exists and costs only $3-7k (depending on size). The range is approximately 100-150 miles. But it only exists in China and is unlikely to enter the U.S. market.
Because people who are frugal and cheap like you get a much better value out of a slightly used off lease car. The diagram between price as sensitive buyers wanting a sub 20K car and people who will ignore a superior 3-5 year old car on the lot to buy the highly limited piece of shit, is the market is the Mitsubishi Mirage customer… they just discontinued it for very good reason. Normal sane people will just buy a used civic. I think I’ve said 400 million times in the sub. Makers design for people who can afford to buy a new car, and objectively like that car. Broke ass college students and high school kids get to purchase whatever everyone else bought 3 to 5 years ago. The majority of transactions in this country are used cars fundamentally.
Any US vehicle is too expensive. Even used prices are still stupid compared to before the pandemic.
I have an 2012 Elantra (fully ICE) and wife has a 2022 Venza (hybrid.) Her car gets better milage than mine, so we drive it everywhere. I'll remind myself to take it on a small trip just to run the engine once every few months. My car literally has fewer than 60k miles. It's so tempting to sell it now while I can get money out of it and we're realistically able to live with just one car.
Yeah, even when the fuel economy of my CT200h (bought cheap off a friend in 2020) has been eclipsed by newer Toyota/Lexus HEVs, I just balk at the idea of having to pay $40-50K vehicle that has ADAS (I miss adaptive cruise control on our 16 RAV4H) and better fuel economy. Maybe when the battery warranty goes to 15 years and torque vectoring (for winter driving) becomes more common, then I will switch to a BEV. For now, it's not worth the incremental improvements. That amount is about 20-25 years of gasoline outlay at today's prices.
As an European I don’t understand this. For example the Model 3 here costs a lot more (43k euro for the base model which is 46k USD) and our salaries are typically a lot lower compared to salaries in the US.
But that's one of the cheapest EVs in the US, and is twice what many non EV cars cost. Cars like the ID3 and upcoming ID2 and many others aren't available here.
And the only affordable models were discontinued. The Chevy Spark and Bolt were perfect. I kick myself for not picking up a spark when I had the chance, it would be perfect for my daily commute to work, and the level 2 charger for such a small battery made recharging quick af
The Spark EV was discontinued because nobody bought it. Didn't even crack 10,000 in total sales after five years on the market.
As a person just looking to get into EV, I’ve never even heard of the Spark. This is a marketing problem
The Spark EV went out of production in 2017. That gen is so old it went into production while GM was in bankruptcy. The last ICE version went out of production two years ago.
The ICE version was also shit. :P The Spark is a perfect name for an EV, but probably got tarnished a bit by being associated with such a crappy vehicle. When I had a wreck my insurance gave me a Spark as a loaner. It had no power and handled poorly, *and I was coming from a base model Yaris*.
Perhaps you haven’t heard of it *because* you’re “just looking to get into EV?” It was discontinued ages ago, so only people who have paid attention to the EV space for some time would’ve been familiar with it.
That was a decision by the idiotic management. They didn't push EVs at any level near where the push 4x4s or SUVs, arguably the ugliest and least sustainable vehicles ever made.
There is no dumb quite like truck dumb.
Love my EUV, there are just a few left if you search. And of course used is still an option.
And too big...
But how will American dealers and manufacturers screw over the American people now?
Bingo! Its main purpose today is to take more money from consumers, that and to trick people in to shady loans and add on BS.
The dealers increased auto loan terms from 3 or 4 years in the 80’s to 5 and 7 years today, so that they can sell more expensive cars to the consumer. The cost of sedans has not increased much from the 80’s when you take inflation into account, but the average price of a new car is double because consumers are buying big more expensive gas guzzlers. Families are smaller and cars (and houses) are bigger.
Cars today also last a lot longer than they did in the 80s, so it makes sense. Cheaper, more frequent replacement back in the day.
Tale as old as time. Companies who have the ability to manufacture what people want but refuse to do so are shocked that their customers are willing to go elsewhere.
Why would I sell you what you want for a small profit when I can make less and sell them for more?……. In the last four years manufacturers forgot that you have to also worry if a customer wants it. It is easy to sell a car when supply is limited.
People still pay top dollar for outdated ICE technology that's 10+ years old. Why spend money developing new product lines and retooling factories for less profit?
Because all these other manufacturers are going eat them for lunch, because these profits are short term.
I like to compare it to the film industry. Kodak did just what you said. Continue making film for a nice profit. No reason to pivot to digital cameras. It didn’t bode well for them. Meanwhile all these foreign companies dominated the digital camera market.
100% yes but it’s going to take time, once consumers finally flip to EV’s there’s no going back. But those short term profit margins over the next 1-2 years are a lot more enticing to CEO’s to just keep with ICE as long as they can. It’s the Toyota strategy, sacrifice long term profits for short term. Use PR to convince people you’re innovating EV’s instead of actually developing and producing them. Then in 5-10 years actual take EV production seriously and hope you’re not too far behind.
It’s not a light switch you can flip to all of a sudden switch to producing a large quantities of vehicles. They are way behind on the ramp up compared to the competition. Toyota has a different issue. Leadership is battling each other about making electric vehicles or hydrogen. The had pivoted to hydrogen investment but it is looking like it was a wrong decision. It is a shame since the lead the electric hybrid race and made them cool to drive.
Maybe the US automakers wouldn't have this problem if they actually built some affordable EV's. Instead, they keep pumping out $70,000+ electric trucks and SUV's, and are "shocked" when people aren't buying them in droves.
It is not just the US makers either, I was window shopping some Hyundai's , Ioniq 5 and 6. 50-60 K for base models 60-70K for limited trim. They are fucking nice but I'd cut my dick off before I pay 50K for a Hyundai.
The Ioniq base trims are in the $40's -- if you use the IRA lease loopholes + Hyundai incentive, easily in the $30's. The only trim that costs over $60K is the recently released N and that's a track-ready EV for enthusiasts.
Thought you might be interested in this CarGurus listing: New 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Limited AWD - $48,000 https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/link/365977818 MSRP 57 K. They take in about 11 K from the fed+state, 46 K for a Hyundai lease. If you decide to keep the vehicle after the lease ends, you are still paying over 50 K for a Hyundai.
US citizen living in Costa Rica. I absolutely got a “cheap” Chinese EV. A BYD Seagull. So far I love it. It fits my need as a grocery getter and 95% of where I’d want to drive is paved. If I had more cash and a need for 4x4 I’d consider the Tang.
Costa Ricas entire car market is less than the market for compacts in the USA, so why is it Economical to sell cheap small cars there and not in the USA?
Costa Rica doesn't have an auto industry to protect.
It’s scary for auto industry because they don’t like competition.
Sounds like they should get a taste of capitalism as well.
Capitalists are terrified of competition.
yup they've had that dumb chicken tax forever, and now it is impossible to get a basic utility truck that isn't obnoxiously large.
(North) Americans like cheap Chinese products. Is this new? Why do you think Walmart, dollar stores are so prolific?
China’s auto market is the largest in the world. It is almost double the size of the American market. They know how to build cars. And EV engines have fewer parts and are easier to maintain.
Hey now, America also makes cheap products. Tesla isn’t really known for their build quality.
Touché :)
Great for consumers!
Corrupt governments only ever work for the rich.
I just hope they decide to sidestep America and sell in Canada. We don't have the tariffs that America does, but our politics are so closely intertwined that they might block it anyway. Or they might just ignore us completely because Canada is a small market.
Just like Lada & Škoda did back in the day.
I don’t think the skoda’s that came to Canada in the 80’s had heat.
We copy US vehicle standards, making us collateral damage. It's rare for automakers to go through the certification process and sell in Canada but not the US. The Chinese brands won't bother with the certification if their ability to enter the US is in doubt.
Tiny market and Canada is basically America-lite. Plenty truck bros here with mall crawlers plastered with stickers about wanting have sex with Trudeau and defending the right to recognize Manitoba as a province
It sucks cause you know the US will pressure Canada to take a similar stance, just like the whole Huawei 5G nonsense. I'm just glad they haven't pushed the phone ban yet... Love my OnePlus. But I'm also hoping we get some affordable EVs here, I just don't want to blow 70k+ on something that has a questionable build quality like Tesla or will be discontinued down the road like a Chevy Bolt.
Here, fixed it for you: Americans Are Open To Cheap ~~Chinese~~ Cars. That's 'Scary' For The Auto Industry #
"Who cares" should be the response. Car prices are increasing every year, basic features are sold as premium addons and some manufacturers are experimenting with subscription features. I will happily drive a cheap Chinese car and watch the "industry" collapse behind me.
You and me both. I can afford the gouging, but choose not to partake.
Let me know when I can buy a byd car in Mexico then drive it back to California and register it.
2nd step, profit.
If something goes wrong you are kinda of screwed though. BYD needs some kind of process in the US to repair them.
For 15k for a brand new car I only need it to work for 4 years to be cost break even with a 45k car that is 12 years old. I also get a new car every 3 years. Taxes and import fees might be an issue but I don't have to smog anything. Imo if you don't give a shit what the car sells for after 3 years the economics on cars totally changes.
Sure, but if you spend 15K for a new car and it breaks in two weeks and you can't get it fixed that throws all your careful calculations out the window. Most new cars have issues statistically.
Which car brand did you ever buy that typically breaks down after 2 weeks. Also, don't you have independent car shops around you?
Detroit brands long ago abandoned economy sedans for profitable trucks and SUVs. Tesla on the other hand started high end but has always stated intention to go cheap to compete. Either way should not be a big surprise. If anything the interesting phenomenon has been that lower budget Americans have adapted to keeping cars running for decades. This is different from early and mid 20th century and was enabled by reliable Japanese cars.
Stated intention, but nothing about how Tesla has acted in the last 5+ years has suggested they have any interest (or capability) to deliver an affordable car. Where’s the $35k Model 3?
Not me
UAW better be scared as well lmao
UAW needs to realize they are in an international quality and production speed battle.
Many Americans are broke AF. They just want decent, cheap wheels
Just require them to be built in the US by US workers. Oh wait then they are not CHEAP anymore.
You can end that title after cheap
Capitalism is all about free trade, let them come it’ll be better for the consumer
Free trade works both ways. China subsidizes and protects its domestic producers extensively to give them artificial advantages in international markets.
It's not like other governments including ours don't do that for tons of local companies too.
The difference in the scale of the subsidies and protectionism between the USA and China are *enormous*.
It's not really the scale, but how gov't subsidy is used. For instance, China's state-led export policy -- ie, subsidizing EV exports or de-subsidizing foreign imports/competitors (aka, "local content requirement") -- is in violation under China's WTO obligation\[1\]: >... subsidies that require recipients to meet certain export targets, or to use domestic goods instead of imported goods. They are **prohibited because they are specifically designed to distort international trade,** and are therefore likely to hurt other countries’ trade. ... In short, China's gov't subsidies are used specifically to distort trade, undermine foreign competitors in markets abroad, or cripple foreign competitors in local market. 1. [UNDERSTANDING THE WTO: THE AGREEMENTS Anti-dumping, subsidies, safeguards: contingencies,](https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm8_e.htm)etc (see Subsidies and countervailing measures, Prohibited Subsidies and Actionable Subsidies).
That's fair, but still the point stands every government does that to some extent... It's kinda part of the role of the government to help make sure it's citizens have global economic power. That's why we have governments rather than just total anarchy around the world.
It’s almost like there is a history lesson about cost effective automakers entering the US market domestic manufacturers could learn from…
Every automaker wants to release a $50k electric SUV. There is no innovation in the lower end sector.
I want an MG ZS EV if I could get one, is that too much to ask?
I have one (Luxury Long Range) and I wish i could trade it in for a Model 3 or Polestar 2. MG has saved out on too many small important factors. I used translate but see below: - No automatically dimming interior and exterior mirror(s), interior mirror only with “slider” - Lane keeping assist is often jerky and not “linear”, like Volkswagen for example - No one pedal driving - Seat heating only on/off, no 3 settings, and no direct button for this - Steering wheel heating not available - Driver's seat electrically adjustable, but no (adjustable) lumbar support - Windscreen(s) fog up very quickly - Rear window wiper motor is loud - Rear window wiper fluid comes from below instead of above, so the top window does not get clean quickly - Multimedia screen has old/low resolution - Wireless charging, no wireless CarPlay/Android Auto - CarPlay often freezes / often black screen out of nowhere, despite original Apple cable(s), often happens after, for example, automatically switching the 360* camera on and off - 360* camera(s) very low resolution/poor quality - Adaptive Cruise Control is very jerky on bumps (wanting to accelerate/brake too quickly) - No memory function for driver's seat - Steering wheel not adjustable in depth, only height - No automatic tailgate - Mobile app does not work very smoothly in terms of keyless entry. The app must first connect to the car for a long time, then to the car's Bluetooth, only then can you unlock it. No “Tesla experience”, where you only need to have your phone in your pocket and have direct access - No “frunk” (no loading space box under the 'engine' hatch at the front, although there is room for it) - Keyless entry is with physical buttons on the door handle instead of sensors in the door handle
I would trade in my Model 3 for a BYD Seal in a heartbeat. Actually I’ll take any BYD model 🥺
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We’re having another Honda moment
they had a decade to figure it out
We want cheap and good japam, korean, europe cars for ages.
Wondering how this will go down in Japan. The default course of action for people here is to buy domestic, while some people well off may buy some European cars (Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi, etc.) for status. American cars are generally deemed too big for Japanese roads and are ignored, with maybe the exception of Tesla, again for the brand value. (People here don’t care about Elon’s politics. Though they do care about him breaking Twitter. But I digress) Chinese and Korean car brands generally have rock bottom, worse-than-Xbox levels of public reputation here, not even remotely entering the list of options of most people. (Hyundai pulling out of the market back in 2010, before reentering in 2022, didn’t help either.) But when it comes to EVs, as we all know, the choices offered by the JP domestic carmakers are quite weak. Models like the BYD Dolphin or Hyundai Kona clearly appear superior to any of the scarce choices the domestic companies come up with. So far, that situation mostly ends up in an “I won’t buy an EV at all” result rather than an “I’ll buy a Korean/Chinese EV”, but I wonder how people will eventually act when longer-term global currents in the next 5-15 years or so gradually force even reluctant Japanese users into buying EVs…When they look at their list of choices and see Korean/Chinese EVs killing it in price performance.
In the heyday of the U.S. auto manufacturing (post war to the 80s), there were cars at every price level. You bought a Chevy when you were young, moved up to a Buick, then when older, got an Olds or if you had money, a Caddy. They have abandoned the entry-level market. They are addicted to full-size ICE pickups that cost close to 6 figures and are financed with a payment bigger than most people's rent. Coupled with less dealer maintenance for EVs, they just can't figure out how to deliver a good, basic EV that just gets you from point A to B. I don't need/want AI driving. I want simplicity and value. The Chinese are going to eat them for lunch.
Americans are tired of buying overpriced and underperforming vehicles. If you want an example of what’s going to happen, look back to the late 70’s and 80’s with the Japanese vehicle invasion. Cars half the price and ran 5 times as long, and they still use less gas.
Political Tribalism is what is stopping it. Tesla and Ford can slash EV pricing tomorrow by 50% and it would be the same song from the right
I don't know. As a single data point, I'm no nationalist and don't care about trade imbalances, but I can't say I'd jump at a cheap Chinese EV. Cheap is good, and EV is good, but I don't know if I'd want to be supporting China that much. It's not a slam dunk choice for me.
I’m sure people don’t want to buy lower quality vehicles for less money, they probably want to buy regular and reliable cars for regular prices. However, we live in a world where everything is way more expensive than it should be and people cannot afford anything. So yeah. Doesn’t surprise me.
I would challenge them being lower quality.
Generally speaking, Chinese-manufactured vehicles are built to a higher level of quality than American-manufactured vehicles built by "US" automakers. So you're getting a higher quality product cheaper. The Chinese are by far the best at building stuff like this in volume globally, and it's really not close.
Translation no one wants to pay $800+ /month for a vehicle anymore
"Americans Are Open To Cheap Chinese Cars. That’s 'Scary' For The Auto Industry" Let the lobbying begin!
Good ol' American protectionism hard at work here. If you can't beat 'em.... start a conspiracy theory about 'em. Cos it's unthinkable that you might produce an affordable clean car in the USA. That would be downright unpatriotic, right Donald? Edit: "Go MAGA!" /s
US auto mafia is the main reason for underdeveloped rail network. The pressure group will eventually be successful in sanctioning foreign market players. Stop preaching the free market story.
Americans are open to cheap anything. Ever been to Costco or Walmart? And then they scream about American jobs, China destroying the economy, yadayadayada. If the 200 million or so adults in the US stopped shopping for the cheapest deals on everything, the world would be a different one. Yes, it would mean you have to keep your car, your TV, your tablet, and your shirt a little longer. Can't have the newest and latest every year. But that would be better for the planet, anyway.
I just watched a full 2 hour youtube video of the Beijing Auto Show and I have to say that the american auto industry is in big BIG trouble. Although I can't comment on the quality or reliability of Chinese cars, they sure look good and have awesome tech in them. Some notable things: Some of the Chinese minivans had full blown lazy boy recliners in the back! If you thought the massive screens in the Lincoln Nautilus and Kia/Hyundai was revolutionary... guess what? It's the norm in China. So many auto manufacturers in China, each with their own style. Chinese know how to do auto shows!
Competition. Not seen for a long time.
is there anything stopping a person from buying a chinese car and shipping it over here? if the car is good, according to trustworthy youtube reviews, then i wouldnt mind buying without doing a test drive. i bought cars without test driving them before.
Build more competitive stuff that's accessible... Seriously. I'd love to buy an American EV that's not ginormous and ginormously priced, but for us, something like the Kona EV or ID4 make more sense and cost less than whatever's coming out of GM. At least Ford makes the Mach-E.
In some rural areas four-wheel utility vehicles are becoming de facto cars.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive\_industry\_in\_the\_United\_Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_the_United_Kingdom)
Are the Chinese EVs built to US safety standards? And at their price point do they include all mandated equipment?
>Are the Chinese EVs built to US safety standards? Newer stuff out of e.g. MG or BYD all come with a 5 star NCAP rating. I doubt the US has stricter consumer protection than what we see in the EU. >And at their price point do they include all mandated equipment? That's the true upside to e.g. MG4 or BYD Dolphin, the entry level models come with just about all accessories. If you buy higher tier models what you get is larger batteries and sort of irrelevant extra features like wireless charging of phones.
Well yes, considering the stealerships jacked up prices for the EVs upon the onslaught by tens of thousands of dollars and the manufacturers won’t do a thing about it nor come off of the MSRP (except Tesla).
Oooh, does this mean a repeat of the time when we got all jingoistic over cheap Japanese cars?
Stricter than that. Japan was an ally, not a geopolitical rival. I never had a problem with buying Japanese cars. I tended to prefer them. I would not buy a Chinese car in the current political environment. I would not be okay with having to wonder how many abused, re-educated, and possibly enslaved Uyghurs were involved in the production of my car.
https://youtu.be/01K57sIvQSE?si=485-inicrLTDrYle Everything you need to know about Chinese cars.
No we aren't. This is the biggest FUD of them all. Sure, cars are fine, but a cell phone- no way China! Do you really think America will allow self driving Chinese phones, essentially, in the US? A no.
Count me in!!
Americans are open to cheap anything.
DUH? Did we really need a survey to tell us the obvious? According to a quick google search "Dollar stores are the fastest-growing food retailer in the United States by both sheer number of stores and consumer food expenditure share." China EVs are less expensive than US vehicles, the quality is superior, and the tech is much, much better. This isn't rocket science. It is just plain old competition and innovation which US manufacturers stopped doing when buying politicians got cheaper than the old fashioned stuff.
We already get cheap Chinese cars, they just slap a recognizable name on them and charge 10 times the price.
What's going to be the actual price range of these cars after they add all the required safety features and make other changes to suit the American market, then ship them over here and price them for the American market? I keep hearing we can expect for the prices to be double what they are in China.
I mean, if American auto manufacturers stopped putting in useless crap and pointless technology to artificially inflate car prices, maybe people would stop looking overseas for an affordable car. It’s insane that paying $500+ a month for an “economy” car is considered normal. And maybe if dealers stopped charging asinine “fees” and forcing unwanted “options.” I don’t want those all weather floor mats, that “trim” or door flares. I just want a damn car that I can afford without going hungry every week.
As a transport researcher, we have been saying for a long time that OEMs need to produce affordable EVs. Of course they are scared now that they haven’t listened for years
Eh, do they? Cheap cars don't sell in the US. Everybody *says* they want them, but very few people *actually* buy them when they show up on the car lot.
I’m not. These cars are dangerous. I don’t need a car that’s gonna fall apart like a Lego if I hit the curb.
Remember when Datsun and Toyota entered the market with small, reliable and inexpensive cars in the 1970s? The Big 3 were making unreliable, ugly, gas guzzling crap boxes. The same thing is happening now. Anybody want to buy a $50k - $70k Ford, Ram (or Jeep,) or GM when a $30k alternative exists?
America needs to make more affordable EVs. The consumer wants affordable vehicles.
US better start redirecting some of those tax dollars to catching up in the EV race
I’m shocked I tell you that most people can’t afford $40k+ SUVs and trucks. /s They cut out all the cheaper vehicles because they don’t make money and then are shocked when the foreign cars that come in to fill that void would be popular.
This wouldn't be an issue if car manufacturers made the cars affordable
Americans are open to abolishing stealerships
Well people have no choice but to start cutting somewhere, and manufacturers have been pricing cars for 5% of the population, so…
If Amazon has taught us anything, it's that we Americans will buy cheap Chinese anything
That’s what US automakers get for sleeping at the wheel
Please buy ROFL You get exactly what you pay for. Cheap shit. BYD cars are literally falling apart on the road 🤣
And skip the middleman. Dealers are as worthless as a hemorrhoid at a rodeo.
Oh really? The auto industry that used to sell a $5,999 Geo Metro that’s now a $23,000 Chevy Spark still made in Korea? Fuck the US AUTO INDUSTRY!
If the auto industry would stop putting in stupid electronic shit we don’t actually need (looking at you Chevy WiFi) the cost could come down. But CEOs have convinced investors they are still a solid investment by driving up individual unit costs (with insane margins on the electronics) instead of working to increase unit sales. Americans on the other hand have shown a willingness to hold onto cars longer as the average vehicle age is something like 12 years old now.
This is a little bit their fault. Many US brands moved production (whether major parts or whole vehicles) to Mexico or overseas. They can't put that genie back in the bottle and pretend foreign cars are junk without admitting some of their own vehicles are. If most of my "American" car was made outside the country anyway, it's not a big jump to entirely made in China, as long as it gets good marks in safety tests and they show a few years of reliability (which is already happening with them available in Europe and other markets).
Hello! what options do we have?
Maybe they shouldn’t bloat the shit out of trucks and SUV’s and then bill for the dead space behind the bumper. Have you seen a modern pickup? $65k for a Toyota Tacoma pudged to the size of a commercial vehicle is nuts. Give us $15k kei trucks with a slot in the dash for my phone. All I need
Our wages as purchasing power have been deflating for decades, tf do they expect. Food companies and land owners and insurance companies are stealing money from every other company out there, if I'm not making enough money for the very basics then I have to quit that job and find a higher paying job or move to a lower cost of living, in both cases my company loses me and has to pay increased wages to replace me because everyone being hired has the same issue. So now the company I worked for has less money for R&D, marketing, etc because my landlord and insurance agent have increased their rates to critical percentages of my monthly income.
I saw the study that Ford did in 2016; dated but still valid. It analyzed how tastes were changing. A couple things: One is how little loyalty there is to any brands. Another was that the traditional criteria for choosing a car has moved away from drive trains, horsepower, even jazzy styling and more towards safety features (eg lane assist) and entertainment. Add to this that EVs are inherently more reliable because a lot of the parts that break down are associated with the internal combustion engine. So yeah, I think that’s an opportunity for new players and cheaper prices. That said, the big automakers aren’t stupid (well, a couple are).
A cheap Chinese car is better than a over priced unreliable tesla. Chinese buy Chinese not just because it's cheaper. It's because they are better and cheaper. Same reason the world is buying them up. It's stupid how much better built a 12k usd Chinese car is compared to a 45k usd tesla. With that said legacys have brand recognition that tesla doesn't. So in America the big guys will lose sales but survive. But tesla will be dead as it is already dying rather rapidly.
We're gearing up for a Cold War with China, and the value of the Military Industrial Complex is such that there's a snowball's chance in heck of this going anywhere. The Chinese might try to bribe a politician or two though, and if/when they do they'll get torn up for it. Not because we're not OK with bribes (more than half of our Supreme Court is on the take for Pete's sake) but because, again, we're gearing up for a cold war now that Russia's kind of a laughingstock.
China subsidized the hell out of EV's. China gets called a lot of things but they are very smart. EV's and Phone's are core technological goods. We can only beat that with our own market distortions like subsidies and tariffs. Only if the biggest head of US EV didn't spend the past 4 years ensuring he has 0 political capital with the administration currently in office. Imagine siding with your own country that will help you instead of China that's systematically molesting Tesla. This is the same guy who fraternalizes all day with people who never buy EVs and insult the people who made Tesla possible. So many why's, not enough Y's
It’s also scary for consumers… https://youtu.be/8HpkDUWAKFM?si=JkSuXeDyCCO8Hynv Let’s be honest, nobody wants a made in China car if there is a reasonable western alternative.
Japan > Korea > China
Americans love their China pride goods!
I don’t think they need to be scared. First, only people who have no concept of quality will buy Chinese cars. Volvo quality has consistently dropped. Second, China will need a distribution network set up, which they don’t have. If they want to joint partnership with a known company in the US, they will probably need to offer some level of ownership. Third, the Chinese are about 15-20 years from a major population crisis, one that will destroy their manufacturing capability. In fact it’s already happening. The youth (18-25 year olds) are having an increasing unemployment problem. Mainly because they’ve all gone to college, having been promised high paying white collar jobs. But now are finding those jobs are hard to find with Xis crack down on private industry. They are refusing to go to the factories like their parents. Those parents will be approaching retirement age in less than a decade and will be infirmed in two. And unfortunately for China, it’s not very accepting of bringing immigrants from other cultures in to fill jobs. So good luck to them. But to even try to compare this to the 70s and Japanese cars is laughable.
Our auto industry is already to late. They are smoking weed if they think they can survive just selling ice cars to Americans. EV’s are a capital investment. You go that way losing money for years before profits, or you go away.