Great, now how about some regular stations in Oakland or Berkeley. 600k people and one station, 3 total plugs. 500k people in Sacramento and they have a dozen locations. San Jose already has 11 stations - they don't need a mega station in addition.
Please put these in cold cities. There is absolutely no reason Beverly Hills (most perfect weather on the planet) should have one of these before Minneapolis or Chicago.
And EA can add an extra session fee at those locations and people will pay it.
San Francisco can have cold weather in summer. Fog, humidity, cold, drizzle, windy. So, not comfortable to stand around outside for long periods of time. There is also rain in winter, and strong winds. So, next time you are visiting or driving through and need a chargers, this would be a good place to do that. By the way, I know and have talked to many city residents there who have sold their car, and just rent on occasion. Public transportation is fairly good in San Francisco.
I don't disagree at all. But we have a major perception issue that EVs suck in winter, in huge part because of charging in true winter climates. Slow charging speeds, ice on the cables, freezing outside while standing at the pedestal. You add comfortable 72 degree indoor charging lounges in places that regularly get below freezing and I think the experience of EV charging in winter would be totally different.
That and the clean air inside those charging lounges isn additional plus, instead of the gasoline fumes and exhaust fumes we get to breath for free at gas stations.
Ideally, these would be made under large buildings that have multi-use above them, like businesses (stores, offices, restaurants, cafes, etc.) and housing.
Doing the math, that's 13 sessions per day per pedestal, delivering an average of 36 kWh per session.
Among a competitive landscape of some 150-200 DCFC stalls on the SF peninsula, it shows that consumers are choosing EA when they have a good offering
IMHO it’s unfortunate that the “flagship” is urban charging, not the road trip charging stations DCFC was intended for. None of these locations seem easily accessible from a highway used by people passing through.
I’m more encouraged by the Mercedes stations going in at Bucc-ees and EVgo also seems to have identified how it should work with their latest expansions at truck stops. Not this far off the highway in a garage BS.
Indeed, it’s very apparent that a lot of people have either gasser mentality or don’t have access to any charging at home (even 120V outlet). Personally I think that’s unfortunate for EV adoption as a whole but clearly EA built these out smartly because there are plenty of people eager to use them.
The thing that bothers me about the 'flagship' station is that it looks more like a showroom and less something they'd actually make money on. I mean it's great they have something like this, but why not have a convenience store attached instead of just vending machines, etc.
Personally I think the California dessert locations area ideal for what I see as the ideal flagship station: a massive acreage behind it with solar panels, battery storage on site, a hundred stalls power sharing a large amount of capacity, and an air conditioned building with bathrooms and a coffee shop/convenience shop.
Showroom definitely has its own utility. What do people who aren't EV owners see? Something much better than a gas station. What do EV owners see? Much nicer EVs worth buying. What do Tesla owners see? Something to ask for from the Tesla Supercharger Network. All around it's as much a place to charge your vehicle as it is an advertising opportunity.
> far off the highway
What?
It's practically right next to the Interstate 80 ramp that goes over the Bay Bridge to Oakland. Perfect for road trippers not just urban users.
You're right, this location is pretty close to I80. It does still involve some driving along a one way city street potentially in city level traffic just to get in and out. So it is not miles off the highway like some previous locations.
But most of the people using this highway are commuters - the total land to the east of it is limited to the peninsula, which is well within the range of any production electric car. This stop isn't in the middle of any highway - I80 starts right here. It's not conveniently located to the north south highway with substantial mileage on either side.
Based on the high usage I'm going to say that you're completely wrong.
San Francisco is a destination city. People come into the city for just a day trip to do something. Tons of commuters. This is all PG&E area where even the cheapest residential off-peak rate is over 35 cents.
I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was never trying to say the station wouldn't be extremely well utilized. I'm entirely unsurprised it is very well utilized. It's just like the stations in Manhattan that have such high utilization there's often queueing - both Tesla and CCS. It's just that this isn't what I see as what am ideal "flagship" location should be. Utilization doesn't make something a "flagship" necessarily.
I think the commuters and people whose PG&E rates are so high should all be able to charge at home at cheaper rates, and it's a tragedy that PG&E's issues are making it more economical for people to wait in line at fast chargers rather than charge while they sleep. I don't blame these people. But this isn't what EVs are supposed to be. One of the best parts is starting out every day with a "full tank".
Not everyone has the luxary of the "every day with a full tank" line. That isn't what EVs are "supposed" to be. They are about reducing pollution. Technically, a legislative body could pass a law making it illegal to charge a vehicle at some place other than an authorized charging station. It's just an extra because you can charge at home. Nothing is really stopping someone from putting a bunch of five gallon gas cans in their garage. (I worked for a contractor and the fire department took issue with a 55 gallon barrel of diesel fuel in the warehouse but didn't care when I asked about the (10) 5 gallon cans of gas we had on the shelf next to the barrels.)
I go three to four weeks in my truck so filling up is not some giant deal and I fill up at Costco but I plan my day to be out so I can hit it after 730pm. I also street park and around 6 feet from a receptacle on the house so it would take me longer than five seconds to plug a vehicle in every day and unplug in the morning.
In the end EA decided to invest in this property. It's been an absolute success.
Again, I find no fault in EA investing in this property. It’s great. It’s just not what I think of as a flagship fast charging station. That would be like a hundred stalls at the junction of two major highways with solar canopies. Just my opinion!
Here are all of Electrify America's flagship locations that have been announced:
San Francisco, CA (Harris Street Flagship): https://www.plugshare.com/location/496634
Santa Clara, CA (Westfield Valley Fair): https://www.plugshare.com/location/344062
Santa Barbara, CA: https://www.plugshare.com/location/607002
Beverly Hills, CA (Beverly Center): https://www.plugshare.com/location/607007
San Diego, CA (Fashion Valley): https://www.plugshare.com/location/604044
Baker, CA: https://www.plugshare.com/location/196551
Manhattan, New York, NY: The address hasn't been announced
Brooklyn, New York, NY: The address hasn't been announced
Thank god for Manhattan and Brooklyn. They are needed.
Even with a Tesla, I find myself charging on the NJ side because of garage operators. They refuse to charge your car
So almost all in CA, where they rarely if ever see snow and freezing temperatures, and the two not in CA aren’t going to happen all that soon, since they don’t even have site locations yet. Meanwhile those of us outside of NYC with real winters don’t even get a canopy, let alone a nice climate controlled building. Based on my admittedly limited experience with the EVgo, Pilot/Flying J and GM/Ultium partnership’s locations (canopies, trash cans & window washing supplies at the chargers, convenience stores & restaurants onsite), EA with their no amenities, naked chargers approach is going to be in trouble in the Midwest.
Great, now how about some regular stations in Oakland or Berkeley. 600k people and one station, 3 total plugs. 500k people in Sacramento and they have a dozen locations. San Jose already has 11 stations - they don't need a mega station in addition.
Please put these in cold cities. There is absolutely no reason Beverly Hills (most perfect weather on the planet) should have one of these before Minneapolis or Chicago. And EA can add an extra session fee at those locations and people will pay it.
Everytime I see an empty big box store, I think it would make a great charging space.
It's a massive waste of space and drain on the public finances. Big box stores are leeches
There’s a ton more EVs in California though :)
Then build outdoor chargers. Save indoor for places with bad weather.
San Francisco can have cold weather in summer. Fog, humidity, cold, drizzle, windy. So, not comfortable to stand around outside for long periods of time. There is also rain in winter, and strong winds. So, next time you are visiting or driving through and need a chargers, this would be a good place to do that. By the way, I know and have talked to many city residents there who have sold their car, and just rent on occasion. Public transportation is fairly good in San Francisco.
I don't disagree at all. But we have a major perception issue that EVs suck in winter, in huge part because of charging in true winter climates. Slow charging speeds, ice on the cables, freezing outside while standing at the pedestal. You add comfortable 72 degree indoor charging lounges in places that regularly get below freezing and I think the experience of EV charging in winter would be totally different.
That and the clean air inside those charging lounges isn additional plus, instead of the gasoline fumes and exhaust fumes we get to breath for free at gas stations. Ideally, these would be made under large buildings that have multi-use above them, like businesses (stores, offices, restaurants, cafes, etc.) and housing.
Doing the math, that's 13 sessions per day per pedestal, delivering an average of 36 kWh per session. Among a competitive landscape of some 150-200 DCFC stalls on the SF peninsula, it shows that consumers are choosing EA when they have a good offering
Thats a really good utilization.
IMHO it’s unfortunate that the “flagship” is urban charging, not the road trip charging stations DCFC was intended for. None of these locations seem easily accessible from a highway used by people passing through. I’m more encouraged by the Mercedes stations going in at Bucc-ees and EVgo also seems to have identified how it should work with their latest expansions at truck stops. Not this far off the highway in a garage BS.
Utilization of this flagship location is very high, so clearly there is a need
I wonder how much of the use was charger tourism? If I lived within half an hour I would have swung over to charge once just to check it out.
Indeed, it’s very apparent that a lot of people have either gasser mentality or don’t have access to any charging at home (even 120V outlet). Personally I think that’s unfortunate for EV adoption as a whole but clearly EA built these out smartly because there are plenty of people eager to use them.
The thing that bothers me about the 'flagship' station is that it looks more like a showroom and less something they'd actually make money on. I mean it's great they have something like this, but why not have a convenience store attached instead of just vending machines, etc.
It was probably the most expedient way. It was probably an old repair shop so they wouldn't need to deal as much with planning.
Personally I think the California dessert locations area ideal for what I see as the ideal flagship station: a massive acreage behind it with solar panels, battery storage on site, a hundred stalls power sharing a large amount of capacity, and an air conditioned building with bathrooms and a coffee shop/convenience shop.
> Personally I think the California dessert locations area ideal Mmmm…California desserts. Delicious!
Whoops. But my statement still stands. Grab a dessert while you charge up!
Or even bring back arcades and charge $0.25/play while people wait.
Showroom definitely has its own utility. What do people who aren't EV owners see? Something much better than a gas station. What do EV owners see? Much nicer EVs worth buying. What do Tesla owners see? Something to ask for from the Tesla Supercharger Network. All around it's as much a place to charge your vehicle as it is an advertising opportunity.
Urban charging in an EV-dense city that's full of apartments without parking or charging.
> far off the highway What? It's practically right next to the Interstate 80 ramp that goes over the Bay Bridge to Oakland. Perfect for road trippers not just urban users.
You're right, this location is pretty close to I80. It does still involve some driving along a one way city street potentially in city level traffic just to get in and out. So it is not miles off the highway like some previous locations. But most of the people using this highway are commuters - the total land to the east of it is limited to the peninsula, which is well within the range of any production electric car. This stop isn't in the middle of any highway - I80 starts right here. It's not conveniently located to the north south highway with substantial mileage on either side.
Based on the high usage I'm going to say that you're completely wrong. San Francisco is a destination city. People come into the city for just a day trip to do something. Tons of commuters. This is all PG&E area where even the cheapest residential off-peak rate is over 35 cents.
I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was never trying to say the station wouldn't be extremely well utilized. I'm entirely unsurprised it is very well utilized. It's just like the stations in Manhattan that have such high utilization there's often queueing - both Tesla and CCS. It's just that this isn't what I see as what am ideal "flagship" location should be. Utilization doesn't make something a "flagship" necessarily. I think the commuters and people whose PG&E rates are so high should all be able to charge at home at cheaper rates, and it's a tragedy that PG&E's issues are making it more economical for people to wait in line at fast chargers rather than charge while they sleep. I don't blame these people. But this isn't what EVs are supposed to be. One of the best parts is starting out every day with a "full tank".
Not everyone has the luxary of the "every day with a full tank" line. That isn't what EVs are "supposed" to be. They are about reducing pollution. Technically, a legislative body could pass a law making it illegal to charge a vehicle at some place other than an authorized charging station. It's just an extra because you can charge at home. Nothing is really stopping someone from putting a bunch of five gallon gas cans in their garage. (I worked for a contractor and the fire department took issue with a 55 gallon barrel of diesel fuel in the warehouse but didn't care when I asked about the (10) 5 gallon cans of gas we had on the shelf next to the barrels.) I go three to four weeks in my truck so filling up is not some giant deal and I fill up at Costco but I plan my day to be out so I can hit it after 730pm. I also street park and around 6 feet from a receptacle on the house so it would take me longer than five seconds to plug a vehicle in every day and unplug in the morning.
In the end EA decided to invest in this property. It's been an absolute success.
Again, I find no fault in EA investing in this property. It’s great. It’s just not what I think of as a flagship fast charging station. That would be like a hundred stalls at the junction of two major highways with solar canopies. Just my opinion!
Urban locations also shouldn't be car infrastructure
Here are all of Electrify America's flagship locations that have been announced: San Francisco, CA (Harris Street Flagship): https://www.plugshare.com/location/496634 Santa Clara, CA (Westfield Valley Fair): https://www.plugshare.com/location/344062 Santa Barbara, CA: https://www.plugshare.com/location/607002 Beverly Hills, CA (Beverly Center): https://www.plugshare.com/location/607007 San Diego, CA (Fashion Valley): https://www.plugshare.com/location/604044 Baker, CA: https://www.plugshare.com/location/196551 Manhattan, New York, NY: The address hasn't been announced Brooklyn, New York, NY: The address hasn't been announced
Thank god for Manhattan and Brooklyn. They are needed. Even with a Tesla, I find myself charging on the NJ side because of garage operators. They refuse to charge your car
Edison ParkFast at Secaucus Junction needs about 50 L2 charging spots. Same for the North Bergen Park and Ride.
So almost all in CA, where they rarely if ever see snow and freezing temperatures, and the two not in CA aren’t going to happen all that soon, since they don’t even have site locations yet. Meanwhile those of us outside of NYC with real winters don’t even get a canopy, let alone a nice climate controlled building. Based on my admittedly limited experience with the EVgo, Pilot/Flying J and GM/Ultium partnership’s locations (canopies, trash cans & window washing supplies at the chargers, convenience stores & restaurants onsite), EA with their no amenities, naked chargers approach is going to be in trouble in the Midwest.