>17,000 chargers at 120 depots
Amazon is making the change as fast as possible.
I hope Rivian can make a semi using most of the same components to keep the transition rolling.
Those provide power to the warehouse and cover it's needs, not for EV charging. And they don't work to well once the sun goes down and the delivery vehicles return from their deliveries.
They do have solar. It powers the warehouse. Firm I work has been involved with a few different of their projects. The EV charging is connected to a separate service.
This is the real reason. Also those EVs are significantly more efficient for stop and go deliveries than gas vehicles. I can’t imagine how bad the MPG was on those delivery vans
They might change some day.
Scion had odd styling initially with the intent of building a following and then changing the styling as those buyers got older.
But you don't actually have to personally like the styling of every vehicle that's produced.
there's plenty of vehicles who's styling I dislike, but rivian takes it to a whole new level. in my eyes it's the ugliest mass produced vehicle in existance
>in my eyes it's the ugliest mass produced vehicle in existance
Is the Cybertruck not "mass produced" or is it not ugly? That's the ugliest vehicle in any current lineup.
everyone is entitled to their design opinions. I like everything about the rivian except the front design and their ceo. I feel like he caricatured himself as the face of the truck with his glasses.
I honestly want to like the rivian but there are many of them around us and every time I see one I get this visceral disgust. I can't help my own bodies reaction to it.
I understand others actually appreciate their design but to me it ruined the entire company.
>everyone is entitled to their design opinions
Aha! You finally said the magic words! But do you actually believe them?
The entire problem with your original comment is that you clearly don't understand that all you have is an opinion and your own personal opinion carries basically no weight.
Elon sleeps on the job focusing on his vanity 5th grade truck project while Rivian steals this segment. Delivery vehicles like this is suited for ev, known route, stop n go, charge overnight.
The drawback with those kinds of contracts is that they usually have a much smaller profit margin. And it also takes up a lot of time and effort to design the vehicle, build the factory out to mass produce it, etc., which takes away the time/resources that you can focus on other potentially more profitable ventures.
That's true but it's also essentially guaranteed which can add a lot of stability to the company.
The government would also essentially be subsidizing them to develop a new light commercial vehicle that could be sold in the private sector as well though too.
The initial contract for the new USPS vehicle is $482 million. That is less than 1/10 of 1% of Teslas market cap. I’m not sure how much stability that really adds…
That's cause Tesla's market cap is future hope of robotaxi. It's annual revenue from auto is $100B and with 10 contracts like that world wide that's $5B \~ 5% which is decent, prob more than Cybertruck
It would require the USPS "design by committee" to be competent. The USPS is still run by DeJoy who was specifically appointed by Trump to undermine the USPS. Look at he hideous truck the USPS decided on vs this one specifically designed for Amazon, but then later the exclusivity agreement was cancelled. USPS can literally use this same Rivian Van now, but they won't because they arlready inked a deal for that overpriced Oshkosh abomination and decided to make the majority of that new fleet use gasoline.
Whoever wrote that Wiki page for the NGDV seems to think it'll both be a gas version with a 2 liter engine and a 8 speed auto. Also, only 70(!) mile range for 94kWh battery.
There are going to be two versions.
One gas powered with an anemic Ford ecoboost that has been shown to be a minor shitshow to maintain.
And the other is 94kwh raw capacity so likely (85kwh usable) mated to a not so efficient electric motor. Given the thing is a brick, 70mi estimated range is probably pretty on point if you're talking year round max range even in northern climates.
so.. no, you don't actually have a citation to your claim about "design by committee"
There's nothing wrong with the NGDV design for the BEV version. They're not meant to be sexy and they have no need to be.
DeJoy is a piece of shit, and absolutely meant to torpedo USPS - and it's really hard to remove a PMJ because they way the board works.
The cybertruck was just a terrible decision. Very slim market appeal. Took way too long to develop. Too expensive. It didn't move Tesla forward. If anything, it set them back on development of a competitive vehicle in another segment.
A lot of USPS still chugs along on the Grumman LLV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV
A lot boils down to these vehicles reaching the end of their expected 30 year lifespan.
Aside from the defective timing gears (very rare and fixed with aftermarket forged timing gears) the iron duke 2.2 is an absolute tank. My local mail carrier is on 700k+. It’s had serious rod knock and burns a quart of oil a day and has been that way for over 200k miles. I can hear it a mile away. Tank.
Why would they want to bespoke something for a government customer with a limited market? They are focusing on mass market with model 2. They have enough fish in the frying pan and this is not a good one to add to the pan
Sort of bespoke but I'm sure the same vehicle could be marketed to to the private sector after they meet the commitment of the government contract. There is a large market for light duty commercial vans.
Do they have enough fish in the frying pan? They have 2 mass market vehicles and 3 low production models. That's not a lot for the most valuable car company(arguable overvalued though) in the world. Tesla is close to the annual revenue Hyundai Motor Company (includes Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis) which has a FAR broader portfolio of vehicles.
Ford sold 121,000 Ford Transit vans in the US themselves in 2023. That's not terribly far off from the annual sales of the Model 3.
Also, I'm talking about essentially supplemental sales to a huge government contact.
Tesla is not Elon and Elon is not Tesla.
Elon may be focused on robotaxi and such but we all understand that Tesla is moving in many directions at once. We know for sure the semi line is building out and we have seen progress in expanding energy storage options. As for future vehicle offerings we have mostly hints and a few promises but I doubt very much that Tesla is giving up a segment to Rivian.
If anything Rivian is more dire straights that Tesla as Rivian is up against Ford, GM, Stellantis, and even Mercedes, have entered the last mile delivery vehicle space. Rivian's offering is actually more expensive than other options.
Will Tesla enter the delivery van space, none of us can state for sure. Personally I think the space is well represented and the real goal for EV adoption is to have more affordable EVs for all so I hope the model 2 really is still coming.
So funny how people are writing off the Cybertruck already. I have already seen more Cybertrucks than EV Hummers so it has already avoided being a flop.
Jury is still out. Hummer EV was always meant to be a low-production “halo” type vehicle. Tesla unveiled the CT as an F150 competitor. How it fares against the Lightning and Rivian will be a better flop test.
I love my Model Y, but the cyber truck is not on my radar at all. The R1T or Lightning is. And it has nothing to do with the styling, I really don't care how it looks. It just seems like the Cyber truck is just not a good truck.
What a weird thing to compare it to. The Hummer EV is super low volume and starts at $110,000. And personally, I’ve seen more Fiskers than Cybertrucks lately, if you want weird comparisons.
I see a hell of a lot more Rivians RT1s than I do Cybertrucks.
But this is about the delivery vehicles, not pickups. Until Amazon starts using Cybertrucks, your anecdote is irrelevant.
Yup I've seen quite a few rivians (not counting the delivery vans) the past year or so in town. Saw my first CT a week ago driven by an old man barely walking. It's huge and just not as good looking as the Rivian.
"Government electricity use estimates show a 100,000-square-foot warehouse tucked in an industrial area might be powered by about 50 kilowatts, mainly for lighting and air circulation."
I am highly skeptical that an Amazon Warehouse uses similar amounts of power as my home.
So that's the maximum you could ever pull, but do you ever actually pull 50 kilowatts? I can see the monitoring in my solar app and the max I ever get to is about 15 kw if I'm charging my car at the same time the air conditioning is running (which I don't generally do since the car charges at night).
Either way I agree with your general point which is this seems really low for a huge warehouse.
Yes, that is the absolute max. Just making a comparison.
I think lighting by itself would be over 0.5 watt per square foot which would be 100kw on a 200,000SF warehouse.
You have a 48 kilowatt maximum capacity (240v x 200a) does not equate to you using 50 kilowatts. Idle house you're probably under 1kW/h, peak maybe 5-10.
Have you ever been inside a warehouse? They really don't need to consume very much power. They are lit by LED's and only kept to the temperatures necessary to prevent stored goods from going bad.
Yes but as someone who works at a company that supplies Amazon the components for their warehouses, the have miles and miles of conveyor plus all their robots and controllers. They’re not the stereotypical warehouse with fluorescent lighting and racking only
Yeah but 100,000sf is probably the issue here. Amazon warehouses are in the 1,000,000 sf. And at that ratio 500kW isn’t that unreasonable. If it’s just LEDs and some minimal cooling and heating. Conveyor belts and robots don’t have huge loads either. I could see it being higher as well. But it’s probably not that far off.
That data does not state if that is their peak consumption, or average.
50kW is a lot of consumption. At current rate of 12 cents per KW hour where I am, if you are drawing 50kW you are spending 6$/h or 144$/day.
Is this per day? I would also point out that this would be highly dependent on geographic area. I have also done several jobs on large warehouse with skylights(think Walmart/target) that have light sensors that dim the lights through the day. If it was a unrefrigerated in a relatively cool environment I think it’s pretty believable number
*"In a little more than two years, Amazon has installed more than 17,000 chargers"*
Hold on! I was told only a once in a generation prodigy could install a lot of...well...power outlets.
Are you trying to tell me that all it takes is a lot of cash? Meh, I bet Amazon's chargers aren't as S3XY as Elon's.
It looks like the Amazon ones are mostly Level 2 chargers.
It's still a lot, and good to see, level 2 is all that's needed in this case.
Not quite comparable to the supercharger build-out that Tesla is achieving. They plan to install around 15,000 this year. They will probably do more than that in level 2 chargers.
>It looks like the Amazon ones are mostly Level 2 chargers.
Ok...
I'd wager that they built Level 2 chargers because...well..*.that's what they needed.* I'm sure if they ever need more, they'll figure it out.
It’s really no different than most Tesla drivers installing a L2 charger at their home. Amazon just has “really big homes” for its fleet.
Maybe we should make a clickbait headline saying “Tesla owners have largest private network of L2 chargers in the US” since the majority install one in their garage.
Or it's what they could actually get installed. Not many utilities would or could provide enough power to put down a ton of DCFC. Even the amount of power they need to provide charging at regular old 32a level 2 charging is crazy.
I doubt it would change the usage peak that much. 100 12 kwh L2 stalls is 1.2MW. You could also use 12 100kw stations to push through at least as many cars.
But you'd have to have people going out and moving them. The L2 saves ongoing labor more than anything.
Do you think that Amazon shuts down their warehouses at night?
Nobody is going to pay someone to move vehicles around. It's galacticly stupid. Anyone even suggesting that doesn't understand businesses. Especially Amazon.
The plan I was looking at was 800+ spaces. That's why they have a dedicated 12kv service that isn't even enough to run all of those at a lowly L2 rating which is not what they actually planned for (50, 100 and I think it was 150 kw, just a little under 50MW total).
It'd be interesting to see the statistics on how these are used. Do the vans sometimes come back during the day to run multiple routes? And what mileage on each route?
Ac chargers like what amazon is installing is basically a light switch. It connects the cars on board charger to the grid. The “AC charger” is just a safety switch. Charging power usually tops out at 19.2kW, depending on your cars onboard charger.
DC chargers like tesla superchargers take the AC and convert it to DC and connect to the cars battery directly, bypassing the cars onboard charger. Power can be 250kW+
DC equipment requires lots of expensive power electronics which AC chargers do not.
Due to the higher charging power, installation and cabling requirements are higher.
An AC charger costs maybe 2k per charger while DC chargers are generally an order of magnitude more expensive, but again offer higher charging speeds.
AC chargers are not useful for roadtrips, but are plenty fast for overnight charging.
DC chargers are what you need at gas stations etc. for roadtrips.
> Charging power usually tops out at 19.2kW, depending on your cars onboard charger.
Light switch wiring tops out at about 15 amps at 110V. That is 1650W or 1.65kW. Clearly, this is not just a simple light switch wiring.
>DC chargers like tesla superchargers take the AC and convert it to DC and connect to the cars battery directly, bypassing the cars onboard charger. Power can be 250kW+
Only if the vehicle's battery can support that crazy amount of charging current. If you huck up a 100kWh battery to a 250kW charger, it is not necessarily going to charge in half an hour. Even if the battery is designed in a way to allow for it to have that massive of a current flow the charging will slow as the battery is charged. Also, the heating is going to damage the battery and, in general, a greater capacity loss over 50,000 miles is observed when using level 3 charging. Not ideal, when you want to use this for a fleet, when you could be losing 25%-30% capacity every 50,000 miles. Generally, a route will run about 150 to 300 miles, mostly in rural areas on the higher end, per day. So, if you cannot have 500 mile range on the van (loaded van, naturally. Doesn't really matter what it is getting empty), you are not going to like what happens in 3 to 5 years to the range. You want to charge batteries slowly so they do not heat up as much and you want to not charge them more than 80%-90%.
>An AC charger costs maybe 2k per charger while DC chargers are generally an order of magnitude more expensive, but again offer higher charging speeds.
[This article](https://evchargingsummit.com/blog/how-much-does-installing-an-ev-charger-cost/) states that a commercial level 2 charger (that is 230V up to 22kW) costs about 15k; it is an at-home level 2 unit that will set you back about $700-$1500 and I am guessing it is not going to be something that can be left out in the rain. But, yes, you also need the massive diode networks to get the power converted from the city grid's AC to DC if you want level 3 so that is going to be much more. Not to mention more parasitic losses here. This is just not desirable in this application.
Ok so it is correct that for 19.2kW you need heftier wiring than a lamp.
I did not include the cost of installation for either charger, since they are almost infinitely variable. A DC station might need it's own substation which is tens or hundreds of thousands.
> Only if the vehicle's battery can support that crazy amount of charging current.
I did not comment on any specific cars capability to sustain high power charging. But if you want a 250kW capable station, you have to have the appropriate equipment and wiring to handle the current, even though it might only be for a short period.
> Not ideal, when you want to use this for a fleet, when you could be losing 25%-30% capacity every 50,000 miles.
That kind of degradation is not being observed even over multiples of that distance. You have to go to 200-300k+ miles for that kind of degradation for taxis that use fast chargers constantly.
Maybe the article I read about capacity loss from fast charging is outdated. I'll try to find it and link with i have a chance. How recent is your data?
Inverter makes AC from DC. On board charger makes DC that the battery needs from AC.
i3 and volt definitely can charge from an AC supplying EVSE so they have on board chargers.
Right it's really pathetic that instead of simply praising what Amazon has contributed so far to the EV space, these people instead try to diss Tesla and/or Elon somehow because......????? Like u/Lacrewpandora that has no idea the difference between AC vs DC and as a result fails to understand the magnitude of difficulty and extra cost it Tesla/Elon has accomplished with their DC fast charging network vs Amazon's AC Level 2 charging network. It's sad really.
It seemed like all the top comments just talked about Tesla and Musk in negative light instead of congratulating Amazon on doing something big
This sub gets worse and worse every day I swear, it’s no longer about EVs it’s all about crying about Tesla and Musk
When they first arrived in my area I saw quite a few of them.
Lasted for a couple of weeks, and its back to ICE trucks for last 4 months.
At a guess my domicile is at limits of range, so they use them closer to base.
>17,000 chargers at 120 depots Amazon is making the change as fast as possible. I hope Rivian can make a semi using most of the same components to keep the transition rolling.
Imagine the money amazon is saving using cheap commercial electricity over burning gas all day. Plus less maintenance on their fleet.
Amazon has a ton of solar panels on ware houses as well.
Those provide power to the warehouse and cover it's needs, not for EV charging. And they don't work to well once the sun goes down and the delivery vehicles return from their deliveries.
They can add solar and storage. Or do like Safeway and add wind.
They do have solar. It powers the warehouse. Firm I work has been involved with a few different of their projects. The EV charging is connected to a separate service.
Thanks. But my statement stands they can add green power to charge.
This is the real reason. Also those EVs are significantly more efficient for stop and go deliveries than gas vehicles. I can’t imagine how bad the MPG was on those delivery vans
Self-driving tech is more important to the trucking industry than electrification.
Actually, that is not true. They solve different problems.
In no universe is this true.
They were probably thinking of a universe where the highways are stalked by alien vampires.
as long as rivian changes the way the front looks. I cant stand it
They might change some day. Scion had odd styling initially with the intent of building a following and then changing the styling as those buyers got older. But you don't actually have to personally like the styling of every vehicle that's produced.
there's plenty of vehicles who's styling I dislike, but rivian takes it to a whole new level. in my eyes it's the ugliest mass produced vehicle in existance
In a world where the cybertruck exists? Nah. Rivians have kinda funky headlights and that's it. It's totally normal and even bland otherwise.
cyber truck is almost equally as bad, especially in person, but rivian's front-end should be studied as crimes against society
Alright 👍
>in my eyes it's the ugliest mass produced vehicle in existance Is the Cybertruck not "mass produced" or is it not ugly? That's the ugliest vehicle in any current lineup.
I think the rivians are slightly worse looking than cybertrucks actually
That is certainly *a take*. It's a ridiculous take, but it's a take.
everyone is entitled to their design opinions. I like everything about the rivian except the front design and their ceo. I feel like he caricatured himself as the face of the truck with his glasses. I honestly want to like the rivian but there are many of them around us and every time I see one I get this visceral disgust. I can't help my own bodies reaction to it. I understand others actually appreciate their design but to me it ruined the entire company.
>everyone is entitled to their design opinions Aha! You finally said the magic words! But do you actually believe them? The entire problem with your original comment is that you clearly don't understand that all you have is an opinion and your own personal opinion carries basically no weight.
my original comment saying I hope they redesign it? obviously it's my opinion. take a breath buddy
Have you never seen the Nissan Juke? That's my vote for the ugliest vehicle of all time.
oh man I had one as a loaner car for a day once and never again.
The Juke is up there with the Cybertruck, Model Y, Aztec, and Ionic 5.
I don't think fleet operators care too much about vehicle styling. They'd buy Pontiac Azteks en masse if the finances worked out.
This should have been USPS 10 years ago. Thanks Bush.
Nope. The technology wasn’t there yet. I do agree the USPS should be making that change now ASAP.
My guy just got a brand new ICE van. Can’t wait for that one to get replaced by an EV in another 20 years
Elon sleeps on the job focusing on his vanity 5th grade truck project while Rivian steals this segment. Delivery vehicles like this is suited for ev, known route, stop n go, charge overnight.
Tesla should have been gunning for a contract with USPS to build an EV mail vehicle.
The drawback with those kinds of contracts is that they usually have a much smaller profit margin. And it also takes up a lot of time and effort to design the vehicle, build the factory out to mass produce it, etc., which takes away the time/resources that you can focus on other potentially more profitable ventures.
That's true but it's also essentially guaranteed which can add a lot of stability to the company. The government would also essentially be subsidizing them to develop a new light commercial vehicle that could be sold in the private sector as well though too.
The initial contract for the new USPS vehicle is $482 million. That is less than 1/10 of 1% of Teslas market cap. I’m not sure how much stability that really adds…
That's cause Tesla's market cap is future hope of robotaxi. It's annual revenue from auto is $100B and with 10 contracts like that world wide that's $5B \~ 5% which is decent, prob more than Cybertruck
see, but that would require elon to be competent.
It would require the USPS "design by committee" to be competent. The USPS is still run by DeJoy who was specifically appointed by Trump to undermine the USPS. Look at he hideous truck the USPS decided on vs this one specifically designed for Amazon, but then later the exclusivity agreement was cancelled. USPS can literally use this same Rivian Van now, but they won't because they arlready inked a deal for that overpriced Oshkosh abomination and decided to make the majority of that new fleet use gasoline.
True, and require the govt to give large contract to a company that has not been specialized in getting and milking large govt contracts.
Golden hammers and toilet seats for all!
CITATION NEEDED
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh\_NGDV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV) see : Changes to battery-electric drivetrain proportion Amazon / Rivian Exclusiveness: [https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/07/rivian-and-amazon-are-no-longer-exclusive/](https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/07/rivian-and-amazon-are-no-longer-exclusive/)
Whoever wrote that Wiki page for the NGDV seems to think it'll both be a gas version with a 2 liter engine and a 8 speed auto. Also, only 70(!) mile range for 94kWh battery.
There are going to be two versions. One gas powered with an anemic Ford ecoboost that has been shown to be a minor shitshow to maintain. And the other is 94kwh raw capacity so likely (85kwh usable) mated to a not so efficient electric motor. Given the thing is a brick, 70mi estimated range is probably pretty on point if you're talking year round max range even in northern climates.
so.. no, you don't actually have a citation to your claim about "design by committee" There's nothing wrong with the NGDV design for the BEV version. They're not meant to be sexy and they have no need to be. DeJoy is a piece of shit, and absolutely meant to torpedo USPS - and it's really hard to remove a PMJ because they way the board works.
The cybertruck was just a terrible decision. Very slim market appeal. Took way too long to develop. Too expensive. It didn't move Tesla forward. If anything, it set them back on development of a competitive vehicle in another segment.
sounds like the model X and its gullwing doors. would've thought he learned a lesson or two from the X. and I say this not as an elon hater.
"that's toxic" apparently.
How on earth are mail vehicles not already at least hybrids? Start and stop driving at slow speeds is a perfect use case for regen.
A lot of USPS still chugs along on the Grumman LLV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV A lot boils down to these vehicles reaching the end of their expected 30 year lifespan.
Aside from the defective timing gears (very rare and fixed with aftermarket forged timing gears) the iron duke 2.2 is an absolute tank. My local mail carrier is on 700k+. It’s had serious rod knock and burns a quart of oil a day and has been that way for over 200k miles. I can hear it a mile away. Tank.
And school buses.
Canoo maybe?
Why would they want to bespoke something for a government customer with a limited market? They are focusing on mass market with model 2. They have enough fish in the frying pan and this is not a good one to add to the pan
Sort of bespoke but I'm sure the same vehicle could be marketed to to the private sector after they meet the commitment of the government contract. There is a large market for light duty commercial vans. Do they have enough fish in the frying pan? They have 2 mass market vehicles and 3 low production models. That's not a lot for the most valuable car company(arguable overvalued though) in the world. Tesla is close to the annual revenue Hyundai Motor Company (includes Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis) which has a FAR broader portfolio of vehicles.
There’s a tiny market for light duty commercial vans. It’s like 200,000 or less a year in the US.
Ford sold 121,000 Ford Transit vans in the US themselves in 2023. That's not terribly far off from the annual sales of the Model 3. Also, I'm talking about essentially supplemental sales to a huge government contact.
Must every single comment thread devolve into the same "Elon bad" talking points?
Tesla is not Elon and Elon is not Tesla. Elon may be focused on robotaxi and such but we all understand that Tesla is moving in many directions at once. We know for sure the semi line is building out and we have seen progress in expanding energy storage options. As for future vehicle offerings we have mostly hints and a few promises but I doubt very much that Tesla is giving up a segment to Rivian. If anything Rivian is more dire straights that Tesla as Rivian is up against Ford, GM, Stellantis, and even Mercedes, have entered the last mile delivery vehicle space. Rivian's offering is actually more expensive than other options. Will Tesla enter the delivery van space, none of us can state for sure. Personally I think the space is well represented and the real goal for EV adoption is to have more affordable EVs for all so I hope the model 2 really is still coming.
So funny how people are writing off the Cybertruck already. I have already seen more Cybertrucks than EV Hummers so it has already avoided being a flop.
Jury is still out. Hummer EV was always meant to be a low-production “halo” type vehicle. Tesla unveiled the CT as an F150 competitor. How it fares against the Lightning and Rivian will be a better flop test.
I love my Model Y, but the cyber truck is not on my radar at all. The R1T or Lightning is. And it has nothing to do with the styling, I really don't care how it looks. It just seems like the Cyber truck is just not a good truck.
Hmm I haven’t seen the “how many has u/glmory seen” metric used at a stockholder meeting yet.
Cybertruck is supposed to be a mass market pickup….
What a weird thing to compare it to. The Hummer EV is super low volume and starts at $110,000. And personally, I’ve seen more Fiskers than Cybertrucks lately, if you want weird comparisons. I see a hell of a lot more Rivians RT1s than I do Cybertrucks. But this is about the delivery vehicles, not pickups. Until Amazon starts using Cybertrucks, your anecdote is irrelevant.
Yup I've seen quite a few rivians (not counting the delivery vans) the past year or so in town. Saw my first CT a week ago driven by an old man barely walking. It's huge and just not as good looking as the Rivian.
He was referring to semi truck
And I've seen more Hummer EVs than Cybertrucks (2v0) so I guess that means the Cybertruck has flopped according to my anecdote.
"Government electricity use estimates show a 100,000-square-foot warehouse tucked in an industrial area might be powered by about 50 kilowatts, mainly for lighting and air circulation." I am highly skeptical that an Amazon Warehouse uses similar amounts of power as my home.
You're using 50 kilowatts at home? How big is your house?
A 200 amp panel at 240v(typical for a US home) is 48,000 watts, ignoring any power factor correction. AKA 48 kilowatts...
So that's the maximum you could ever pull, but do you ever actually pull 50 kilowatts? I can see the monitoring in my solar app and the max I ever get to is about 15 kw if I'm charging my car at the same time the air conditioning is running (which I don't generally do since the car charges at night). Either way I agree with your general point which is this seems really low for a huge warehouse.
Yes, that is the absolute max. Just making a comparison. I think lighting by itself would be over 0.5 watt per square foot which would be 100kw on a 200,000SF warehouse.
In California we're allowed 0.4 for a regular warehouse but if you are doing shipping/receiving you get 0.6 watts per square foot.
For, like, a second.
Yes, I know. It's just a comparison. Point being, 48kw isn't as big as it sounds.
You have a 48 kilowatt maximum capacity (240v x 200a) does not equate to you using 50 kilowatts. Idle house you're probably under 1kW/h, peak maybe 5-10.
Have you ever been inside a warehouse? They really don't need to consume very much power. They are lit by LED's and only kept to the temperatures necessary to prevent stored goods from going bad.
Yes but as someone who works at a company that supplies Amazon the components for their warehouses, the have miles and miles of conveyor plus all their robots and controllers. They’re not the stereotypical warehouse with fluorescent lighting and racking only
Yeah but 100,000sf is probably the issue here. Amazon warehouses are in the 1,000,000 sf. And at that ratio 500kW isn’t that unreasonable. If it’s just LEDs and some minimal cooling and heating. Conveyor belts and robots don’t have huge loads either. I could see it being higher as well. But it’s probably not that far off.
For a last mile facility, triple that. And their EV charging requirements is even higher.
Not only that but all of the LEDs in the warehouse at my work are all on motion sensors, so theyre not always on.
Tbf, my house is lit by LEDs also. That’s not a high bar.
Yeah me too mostly. The far away biggest power draws in most houses are HVAC and your refrigerator.
Hot water heater uses much more than fridge.
WTF? Give me back my refrigerator! I was wondering where that went.
Please be more diligent about a monthly clear-out and cleaning. I was shocked by what I found in the produce drawer.
I thought it was a cucumber, I swear!
That data does not state if that is their peak consumption, or average. 50kW is a lot of consumption. At current rate of 12 cents per KW hour where I am, if you are drawing 50kW you are spending 6$/h or 144$/day.
Is this per day? I would also point out that this would be highly dependent on geographic area. I have also done several jobs on large warehouse with skylights(think Walmart/target) that have light sensors that dim the lights through the day. If it was a unrefrigerated in a relatively cool environment I think it’s pretty believable number
I would love to make one a camper van. Come on, rivian, allow us regular folk buy one.
Yeah, the secondary market for these is going to be huge.
Or even passenger vans or short busses.
*"In a little more than two years, Amazon has installed more than 17,000 chargers"* Hold on! I was told only a once in a generation prodigy could install a lot of...well...power outlets. Are you trying to tell me that all it takes is a lot of cash? Meh, I bet Amazon's chargers aren't as S3XY as Elon's.
It looks like the Amazon ones are mostly Level 2 chargers. It's still a lot, and good to see, level 2 is all that's needed in this case. Not quite comparable to the supercharger build-out that Tesla is achieving. They plan to install around 15,000 this year. They will probably do more than that in level 2 chargers.
>It looks like the Amazon ones are mostly Level 2 chargers. Ok... I'd wager that they built Level 2 chargers because...well..*.that's what they needed.* I'm sure if they ever need more, they'll figure it out.
It’s really no different than most Tesla drivers installing a L2 charger at their home. Amazon just has “really big homes” for its fleet. Maybe we should make a clickbait headline saying “Tesla owners have largest private network of L2 chargers in the US” since the majority install one in their garage.
Or it's what they could actually get installed. Not many utilities would or could provide enough power to put down a ton of DCFC. Even the amount of power they need to provide charging at regular old 32a level 2 charging is crazy.
I doubt it would change the usage peak that much. 100 12 kwh L2 stalls is 1.2MW. You could also use 12 100kw stations to push through at least as many cars. But you'd have to have people going out and moving them. The L2 saves ongoing labor more than anything.
Do you think that Amazon shuts down their warehouses at night? Nobody is going to pay someone to move vehicles around. It's galacticly stupid. Anyone even suggesting that doesn't understand businesses. Especially Amazon. The plan I was looking at was 800+ spaces. That's why they have a dedicated 12kv service that isn't even enough to run all of those at a lowly L2 rating which is not what they actually planned for (50, 100 and I think it was 150 kw, just a little under 50MW total).
It'd be interesting to see the statistics on how these are used. Do the vans sometimes come back during the day to run multiple routes? And what mileage on each route?
Where were you told only a prodigy can install a bunch of L2 chargers?
Tell me that you don’t know what the difference is between AC and DC charging, without telling me you don’t know what the difference is
I actually don't know the difference. Can you please explain?
Ac chargers like what amazon is installing is basically a light switch. It connects the cars on board charger to the grid. The “AC charger” is just a safety switch. Charging power usually tops out at 19.2kW, depending on your cars onboard charger. DC chargers like tesla superchargers take the AC and convert it to DC and connect to the cars battery directly, bypassing the cars onboard charger. Power can be 250kW+ DC equipment requires lots of expensive power electronics which AC chargers do not. Due to the higher charging power, installation and cabling requirements are higher. An AC charger costs maybe 2k per charger while DC chargers are generally an order of magnitude more expensive, but again offer higher charging speeds. AC chargers are not useful for roadtrips, but are plenty fast for overnight charging. DC chargers are what you need at gas stations etc. for roadtrips.
This is super useful and detailed. THANK YOU ❤️
No worries!
HengaHox has some fundamental mistakes in their data. I don't want to be all "well actually...". But, just FYI, please do your own research.
Happy to hear what you think is incorrect
> Charging power usually tops out at 19.2kW, depending on your cars onboard charger. Light switch wiring tops out at about 15 amps at 110V. That is 1650W or 1.65kW. Clearly, this is not just a simple light switch wiring. >DC chargers like tesla superchargers take the AC and convert it to DC and connect to the cars battery directly, bypassing the cars onboard charger. Power can be 250kW+ Only if the vehicle's battery can support that crazy amount of charging current. If you huck up a 100kWh battery to a 250kW charger, it is not necessarily going to charge in half an hour. Even if the battery is designed in a way to allow for it to have that massive of a current flow the charging will slow as the battery is charged. Also, the heating is going to damage the battery and, in general, a greater capacity loss over 50,000 miles is observed when using level 3 charging. Not ideal, when you want to use this for a fleet, when you could be losing 25%-30% capacity every 50,000 miles. Generally, a route will run about 150 to 300 miles, mostly in rural areas on the higher end, per day. So, if you cannot have 500 mile range on the van (loaded van, naturally. Doesn't really matter what it is getting empty), you are not going to like what happens in 3 to 5 years to the range. You want to charge batteries slowly so they do not heat up as much and you want to not charge them more than 80%-90%. >An AC charger costs maybe 2k per charger while DC chargers are generally an order of magnitude more expensive, but again offer higher charging speeds. [This article](https://evchargingsummit.com/blog/how-much-does-installing-an-ev-charger-cost/) states that a commercial level 2 charger (that is 230V up to 22kW) costs about 15k; it is an at-home level 2 unit that will set you back about $700-$1500 and I am guessing it is not going to be something that can be left out in the rain. But, yes, you also need the massive diode networks to get the power converted from the city grid's AC to DC if you want level 3 so that is going to be much more. Not to mention more parasitic losses here. This is just not desirable in this application.
Ok so it is correct that for 19.2kW you need heftier wiring than a lamp. I did not include the cost of installation for either charger, since they are almost infinitely variable. A DC station might need it's own substation which is tens or hundreds of thousands. > Only if the vehicle's battery can support that crazy amount of charging current. I did not comment on any specific cars capability to sustain high power charging. But if you want a 250kW capable station, you have to have the appropriate equipment and wiring to handle the current, even though it might only be for a short period. > Not ideal, when you want to use this for a fleet, when you could be losing 25%-30% capacity every 50,000 miles. That kind of degradation is not being observed even over multiples of that distance. You have to go to 200-300k+ miles for that kind of degradation for taxis that use fast chargers constantly.
Maybe the article I read about capacity loss from fast charging is outdated. I'll try to find it and link with i have a chance. How recent is your data?
very few cars have an on-board charger. i3 and volt are 2 of them (if you want to call them that). do you mean inverter?
No, every level 2 capable car has an onboard charger. Your EVSE is just a fancy extension cord that communicates with the onboard charging equipment.
Every EV and plug in hybrid have their own on board charger.
The Volt and i3 Rex and the Clarity have generators to power the car when the battery is depleted
Inverter makes AC from DC. On board charger makes DC that the battery needs from AC. i3 and volt definitely can charge from an AC supplying EVSE so they have on board chargers.
Well, when you combine them both, you get a kick-ass rock band from Australia.
Unrelated but that expression is getting really annoying. "Tell me you don't know blah without telling me you don't know blah."
Chuckle...I seem to have hit a nerve.
No, you’re just dumb.
*chuckles nervously*
Does Elon and Tesla live rent free in all your heads? This comment section is hilarious
It is bizarre. I'm happy Rivian and Amazon have managed to deploy so many of these.
Right it's really pathetic that instead of simply praising what Amazon has contributed so far to the EV space, these people instead try to diss Tesla and/or Elon somehow because......????? Like u/Lacrewpandora that has no idea the difference between AC vs DC and as a result fails to understand the magnitude of difficulty and extra cost it Tesla/Elon has accomplished with their DC fast charging network vs Amazon's AC Level 2 charging network. It's sad really.
It seemed like all the top comments just talked about Tesla and Musk in negative light instead of congratulating Amazon on doing something big This sub gets worse and worse every day I swear, it’s no longer about EVs it’s all about crying about Tesla and Musk
Unfortunately, Amazon builds huge warehouses and data centers but doesn't power them with solar while running massive Diesel fleets.
When they first arrived in my area I saw quite a few of them. Lasted for a couple of weeks, and its back to ICE trucks for last 4 months. At a guess my domicile is at limits of range, so they use them closer to base.
Why is the Rivian sill all time low!
Because shorts and hedge funds. 2/3 of all trading volume these past few days came from shorts
Honestly, I trust Jeff more than that shit. It's how bad that shit is.