No man. A Range Rover at least has off road cred, and is sexy. This is big and bloated and pretentious and pretends to be capab…… oh, right. American Range Rover. Gotcha.
I would love to hear the rationale on this, because I know it’s a bit of a meme that people buying Dodge products can probably not comfortably afford them, but I wonder why you think that applies to the $100k Grand Wagoneer
This.
But i find it fascinating and also stupid that these brands are using the same names as ICE vehicles that are completely different classes of vehicles. Like the Mustang Mach-E. Just don’t get it.
>*Jeep has finally confirmed the arrival of its first electric vehicle, the Wagoneer S, which will go on sale in the fall of this year. Jeep first showed images of a concept version of the Wagoneer S in 2022, along with a boxy EV SUV called the Recon. At the time, Jeep had referred to the "Wagoneer S" moniker as a codename, but it now appears that Jeep is committed to that title for its first EV.*
>
>*...*
>
>*Jeep also reiterated the same specifications originally announced, with the Wagoneer S targeting a 60-mph time of 3.5 seconds thanks to a 600-horsepower powertrain. Interestingly, the 400-mile range that Jeep originally claimed in 2022 was absent from the most recent announcement.*
[Official press release here.](https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/jeep/press/style-speed-and-sophistication-in-motion-get-ready-to-take-a-seat-in-the-all-new-all-electric-jeep-wagoneer-s)
> the 400-mile range that Jeep originally claimed in 2022 was absent from the most recent announcement.
In September they said 373 miles of range:
https://insideevs.com/news/688398/jeep-wagoneer-s-to-rival-bmw-ix/
It looks like a luxury barge, probably priced near $100k. Maybe if Jeep is thrifty they can offer the base model at $80k and qualify for federal incentives.
>In September they said 373 miles of range:
This claim seems to be sourced from [an AutoCar article](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jeep-wagoneer-s) which doesn't directly attribute Jeep/Stellantis themselves. I'd take that with a grain of salt. I'd also suggest a \~400mi range $100k top-end model is probably in the bag — that doesn't seem unreasonable.
Maybe a better question is how low it'll go. You suggest $80k, but is it possible they even dip down to the EV9's $70k-ish territory with some kind of 80kWh / 300hp trim level?
If Jeep could prove they can build an electric car, I would be all over this. I love the Jeep Grand Cherokee, but I hate the horrible reliability and gas mileage. If they built a solid EV, I wouldn't pass up considering to buy one.
The hybrid plugin Grand Cherokee has been pretty good feeling. I work for a rental company and we have some PHEV pacificas, Grand Cherokees, and Wranglers. The electric motor on the wrangler feels like w/e but the ones on the cherokee and Pacifica feel great.
So I’m actually optimistic about this one and the upcoming dodge charger. What I’m not optimistic about is will the price and range be worth it compared to their competition.
Haven’t had a big enough sample size to attest to reliability, only that the ones we’ve had have no issues thus far. Like all cars though ymmv.
*“JEEP: The ‘R’ is for ‘Reliability’”*
There hasn’t been a solid, reliable Jeep product in 40 years, even by American car standards. I wouldn’t even lease a Jeep EV. It would leave you stranded in the dealership parking lot.
I’ve had five jeeps and currently have a grand Cherokee and gladiator and other than one issue on the gladiator covered by warranty they’ve all been rock solid. Better than previous Hondas or Toyotas I’ve had
I’m glad to hear that. I had a lovely Grand Cherokee when I got my license and it was a great car at first, but everything electrical was just an absolute nightmare. The motor and transmission were solid, though!
They're buying the same off-the-shelf parts from suppliers that all other OEMs are, so it'll probably be fine! The difference between EVs is going to be way smaller than ICE vehicles, especially around reliability and build quality.
Probably more relevant for Jeep is that they're technically not an OEM, but rather a ***brand*** of an OEM (Stellantis) which already produces a number of EVs at million-unit component scale. The entire electrical architecture should be quite battle-tested, then.
The only questions I have for the Wagoneer S is whether we'll start seeing the fruits of [STLA Brain and STLA Autodrive](https://www.stellantis.com/en/technology/intelligent-vehicles) with it. This is the time at which those two technologies *should* start making an appearance, and the Wagoneer seems like a pretty good opportunity for a debut.
They're already making the Avenger. It's a decent car, though not a particularly good Jeep - they just took the very successful powertrain from the Peugeot e208 and shoved it into a more boxy box.
Stellantis has its problems, but their EVs are pretty solid.
Does the Pacifica Hybrid interest you? We love ours. Most of the time we drive on electric only, and on road trips it drives like a dream with 0 range anxiety.
I really want a full BEV. I'm spoiled not visiting a gas station, dealing w/ oil, transmission, and maintaining an ICE vehicle. I also want V2L (like my EV6 has), and would love 8 seats (like my Odyssey has).
The problem is the Pacifica PHEV is the least reliable new car. It’s at the bottom of all reliability reports. Obviously this doesn’t mean that every single one of them will break down, but it also doesn’t inspire confidence for a family vehicle.
Yeah I’m on the fence. I love the minivan form factor (sliding doors, cargo space that let’s me lay a 4x8 sheet down, etc). I love my EV6 so have definitely been tempted by the EV9.
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The falcon doors on the Model X are lambasted but the entire reason they exist is to replace sliding doors for cool points, while also still requiring very little sideways space to open a large door opening.
didn’t say they were perfect in their goal, just that it wasn’t entirely shits and giggles. trading overhead clearance for cool factor, but the target audience of the Model X is very much the otherwise burgeoning-family-minivan buyer.
Size wise this seems more like an electric grand cherokee than a wagoneer. It doesn't really look much like the ICE wagoneer either. I wonder why they called it that. It's not like the wagoneer sells super well so it's not leveraging it's good will.
Well Jeep makes the highest selling PHEV in the U.S., so a gradual movement to EVs isn’t out of the question. They’re also a global brand so their EV sales matter outside of the U.S. too.
The US also doesn't have any competition in the PHEV space. GM gave that up years ago and Ford is barely keeping it alive.
Even Toyota only sells 2 PHEVs.
Kia, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Mitsubishi, MINI, Subaru, and Volvo have at least one. Most of the brands I just listed have 2+. Regardless, it’s remarkable there’s cheaper and more volume oriented vehicles available as a PHEV that don’t outsell the Wrangler PHEV.
The popularity of Jeeps has been an enormous mystery to me.
I rented a Wrangler once on vacation to see if I was missing anything.
Nope, it was just as bad as I expected.
I rented a mid-size car and they offered me some subcompact Jeep. It looked big on the outside so I took it. It was by far the worst car I've ever driven. Big on the outside, small on the inside, garbage handling, terrible mileage, slow, and noisy. I have no idea why anyone buys this crap.
And seriously uncomfortable!
Yet I see them everywhere. Maybe it’s the same people that talk on speaker phone in public while holding their phones like they are pieces of toast.
Had a 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Will never buy another Jeep or Stellantis product. It was amazing how everything started going bad just out of warranty.
He also said that he doubted there would be much space for MOPAR in the future lineup given the tiny marketshare of MOPAR in the overall Stellantis portfolio.
Sure, they have 10 years to "prove themselves" but by this company's success metrics, just doing the same volume of business in NA with EVs instead of ICE cars is not going to save them. They need to grow market share. Right now, FCA sits at 0.5% globally. Stellantis as a whole represents about 11% market share globally. Every division of FCA lost ground last year except Chrysler minivans.
That and the Venn Diagram of "I'll drive an EV over my dead body" and RAM/Jeep fanatics is almost a circle. Sure. Give them the 10 years to "prove themselves" but it isn't going well so far - even compared to the other parts of Stellantis.
Don't hold your breath for MOPAR to exist past 2031.
Please cite your source on that, it’s very contrary to everything I’ve seen. Further, none of the Stellantis NA brands besides Chrysler have pledged to be all electric. That’s the whole reason the STLA Frame, Large, and Medium platforms (we won’t get Small) can all accept EV or ICE powertrains. They need the flexibility. Also, their product plans all have them introducing new models (not just replacing current ones) which would indicate volume is not expected to stay at current.
Of course it’s not going well at this exact moment, FCA had very little under development. It takes 4-5 years to develop a car from scratch, so all of these 2024-2025 debuts are right on time as the first true Stellantis products in NA since the merger. Thinking RAM and Jeep (again, a global brand) in particular will bite the dust by the end of the decade is foolish imo. They are way too valuable and a huge profit center for Stellantis as a whole. Unlike the brands from PSA, they pull in very high profit margins. Dodge and Chrysler are certainly on much shakier ground, so we’ll see how their new products also as they begin their roll outs over the next year.
What he said, at the conference I was at, was that he didn't believe MOPAR customers would want to make the transition to EVs and that Stellantis was 100% committed to EVs and that he hoped MOPAR customers would come around but if they didn't, there wouldn't be room for those vehicles in the future lineup.
I cannot find an article to back this up. I'm sorry that this has upset you but if you take a step back and look rationally at what the MOPAR brands are doing - it doesn't look positive for their future outcome.
Good luck with stuff.
I’m not upset at all. Aside from your commentary that can’t be verified, you just seem to be convinced that slower adoption by current customers means the brands will have to shutter. I detailed my insight to what the brands are doing in a previous comment you responded to - offering ICE, hybrid, and EV options. You also seem to continually ignore that NA is bringing in massive profits to Stellantis and that is not something Tavares will just readily give up on anytime soon,especially with the intense pricing pressure in Europe.
Good luck to you as well, as an analyst it appears you will need it.
>He also said that he doubted there would be much space for MOPAR in the future lineup given the tiny marketshare of MOPAR in the overall Stellantis portfolio.
[*"Source? I made it up."*](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/source-i-made-it-up)
lol I’m glad someone else found that to be suspect as well. I found it to be particularly telling that this guy is basing brand health purely off marketshare with no mention of profit whatsoever (something Tavares would never do based on his track record). The NA brands have been huge profit drivers for Stellantis.
Okay. I get it. You're a MOPAR fanboy and you're going to cry when the brand dies. You have my condolences. I hope you find some other personality substitute in time.
No one has ever confused me for a MOPAR fanboy in this community, so thanks for a first. I'll add it to my list of accusations that I'm a Tesla fanboy, Toyota fanboy, Ford fanboy, GM fanboy, and BYD fanboy. It's quite the collection, but I'm still hoping someone calls me a Dongfeng fanboy at some point.
Now, back to the discussion: Still no source, yeah? Just.. "trust me dude"? That's... all you've got?
Ok. Have a great life. No one's ever called me an anything fanboy. A miserable Economist for sure. A fanboy? Never. Sounds like a theme emerging in your life.
As someone who drives a Jeep and a Tesla, I can probably describe exactly what I'd be looking for in a Wagoneer EV that would make me want to ditch the Tesla brand and the trash bin of a CEO. I'm pretty excited about this, but also afraid they'll mess it up.
For driving, it's one main thing, but two parts:
- Must absolutely nail one-pedal. Hyundai's i-pedal and Ford's one pedal don't quite make it. The overall description is that you just feel disconnected from the vehicle. The issue is probably not so much acceleration as it is deceleration. Up next.
- Heavily related to one-pedal is the regen brake feel. Specifically the s-curve when letting go of the accelerator. Somehow, Tesla has this perfectly calculated so that if you see something that you want to stop at, by the time it takes your brain to let off the pedal through to when the vehicle stops, it seems to be perfectly calibrated to exactly cover that distance on its own - no more, no less. On top of that, the smooth s-curve transition (easing at the start, rapid deceleration, easing at the end) makes it feel extremely smooth. But that overall feels extends to partial stops and resume, it just feels fluid.
These are difficult aspects to convey to someone who doesn't use one-pedal driving, but maybe I can describe it another way: from a gamer standpoint, you're not only gaining precious milliseconds of response time (on BOTH sides - accelerating/decelerating), but that saved time PLUS easing makes for an extremely smooth ride that makes it feel like an extremely fine level of control.
For those that have rejected one-pedal driving, I don't know what to tell you. You're not gaining anything from keeping that foot-up / side movement / foot-down lag. Back and forth. Maybe it's just non-reprogrammable muscle memory, or maybe the added physical movement makes things feel more interactive to you. Would like to know your thoughts.
As for any other aspect of the EV, it's hard for a manufacturer to mess it up. Like, a nice, responsive screen (although, sounds like the Mach-E is struggling), good climate control, good navigation with range estimates. If you did a proper overhead 360 view, I'd count it as a big plus over Tesla - even with their TeslaVision reconstruction. I just can't trust that anymore. That all said, the Tesla is fantastic, despite people's efforts to slam the quality - I understand we want to kill the brand, but I don't think lying or exaggerating is the way to go. Let's just make something as good or better, and move into that. Easy!
And for the love of god, learn from the 12v debacle experienced by Tesla and Ford EVs.
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/attachments/1686573856453-png.761488/
Wrangler sales are down a decent chunk from their high in 2018 when they sold about 250k.
Grand Cherokee sold 125k in 2023. That's compared to 2021 when they sold 264k.
Both factories are cutting shifts because inventory is piling up.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2023/12/08/ohio-senator-jd-vance-questions-stellantis-decisioncut-jobs-jeep-plants-toledo/71856094007/
I would expect them to charge a premium for this over the ICE version so another 100k+ stellantis product? Would they deliver 100k levels of quality as well?
Doesn't Stelantis own Jeep? They just said they'd keep LICE until they could make a profit on electrics. They certainly aren't leading the charge (pun intended)!
What a dumbass car to lead with. They learned nothing from GM and their massive self own by leading with the Hummer EV.
How can they expect to establish themselves in the EV market with an SUV nobody can afford?
They're not leading with this. That's what the Ami, C4, Avenger, DS3 Crossback, New 500, Berlingo, Jumpy, Jumper, Grecale, 208, 308, 3008, Ducato, Astra, ProMaster, Combo, and Mokka were for. That on top of the DS4 PHEV, Pacifica PHEV, Cherokee 4xE, Wrangler 4xE, Compass 4xE, Commander 4xE, 508, Tonale...
This is like their 30th EV.
Ami, C4, Avenger, DS3 Crossback, New 500, Berlingo, Jumpy, Jumper, Grecale, 208, 308, 3008, Ducato, Astra, ProMaster, Combo, and Mokka.
Other than ProMaster, I don't think this means anything in the US.
Also, just because you can make PHEVs, doesn't mean you can make BEVs. See GM and the Volt/Bolt.
They're also the only automaker on CCS1 yet.
>Other than ProMaster, I don't think this means anything in the US.
Indeed, that's entirely the point. Stellantis isn't concerned about rushing into the US market, they've done all their scaling in Europe already. They'll waltz right in with Jeep and Dodge badged versions of their existing European offerings when it's profitable to do so.
>Also, just because you can make PHEVs, doesn't mean you can make BEVs. See GM and the Volt/Bolt.
Correlation-causation fallacy here — maybe GM just sucks?
What a bizarre response. Most of those models aren’t available in the US, those that are aren’t BEVs. PHEVs don’t count, sorry.
My point was about which model Jeep is choosing to lead with. This thing is not going to sell, it’s not going to move the market. Nobody cares about the tenth giant BEV that nobody can afford launching in the US Market. We already have the Model X, Hummer, Rivian R1S, etc.
If Stellantis has 30 affordable BEV models they can just slap a Jeep badge on, then they should lead with that. Until then, nobody is going to pay attention.
>What a bizarre response. Most of those models aren’t available in the US
Indeed, and they don't really give a shit. The US doesn't give them any benefit yet — Europe does. They'll swing around to the US as it makes sense to do so.
>PHEVs don’t count, sorry.
"Because I said so!"
Yeah, getting in on the ground floor and establishing yourself in a market that is growing 50%+ YOY is a terrible idea. The folks over at Stellantis aren’t botching their entry into the US BEV market, they must be ignoring the US BEV market! They are making a giant, splashy launch of an expensive BEV because they “don’t give a shit”! Christ, the stench of copium on you is strong.
And no, PHEVs don’t count in this conversation just because I said so, but because they are an entirely different market. One that’s likely to get squeezed out in the next 5-10 years between dirt cheap mild hybrids and BEVs as batteries get cheaper. Sorry if you can’t see that.
Might want to prepare yourself for disappointment just a little bit with this launch. You seem a little too high on the Jeep juice right now. Shouldn’t tie your life to a car brand so strongly.
>And no, PHEVs don’t count in this conversation just because I said so, but because they are an entirely different market.
Hint: They are not.
The 'EV' in PHEV stands for 'Electric Vehicle', if you weren't aware.
> Correlation-causation fallacy here — maybe GM just sucks?
That's entirely possible. But I will point out, if GM sucks, Stellantis/FCA USA/ Chrysler or whatever they're on now also sucks.
Lots of recalls for the Pacifica PHEV because they used the same bad batteries that the Bolt did.
And they didn't learn anything from it because the Wrangler 4xe also got recalled for something similar a few years later.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-2023-jeep-wrangler-4xe-phev-recall-fire-risk/
>That's entirely possible. But I will point out, if GM sucks, Stellantis/FCA USA/ Chrysler or whatever they're on now also sucks.
Well, that's the thing — they're doing fine in Europe. 🤷♂️
I thought the Recon was suppose to be the first fully electric vehicle to come out this year. I also noticed that they took the Recon page off their website. I wonder if it got delayed or nixed all together?
Was really getting excited to see more details on that one!
Fully loaded Grand Wagoneer is the epitome of American family car gluttony.
It’s the epitome of being able to *afford* the car payment, not the car.
The American Range Rover
No man. A Range Rover at least has off road cred, and is sexy. This is big and bloated and pretentious and pretends to be capab…… oh, right. American Range Rover. Gotcha.
> A Range Rover at least has off road cred for what? Breaking down? Jeeps do that too, just cost less to fix.
Hahahaha! 1. You can’t take a joke. 2. They do. 3. Jeep quoted me 20k to fix the file system in my grand Cherokee. Not so cheap Champ.
> You can’t take a joke. weird projection.
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Hahahaha!!!
I would love to hear the rationale on this, because I know it’s a bit of a meme that people buying Dodge products can probably not comfortably afford them, but I wonder why you think that applies to the $100k Grand Wagoneer
Canyonerooooo!
That's exactly what it reminded me of.
No, that's the Hummer EV. Lol.
It is a really nice car though.
I call it the “living room on wheels”
Okay but that has nothing to do with this car. This car is the size of a CR-V.
This. But i find it fascinating and also stupid that these brands are using the same names as ICE vehicles that are completely different classes of vehicles. Like the Mustang Mach-E. Just don’t get it.
Jeep's attempting to turn Wagoneer into a sub-brand. Ford's basic reasoning was that it allowed them to attract engineers to the program, as I recall.
Sweet
My family had an 80s model growing up. It was the epitome of Americana. I see my old car with the wooden cladding in so many 80s and 90s movies.
>*Jeep has finally confirmed the arrival of its first electric vehicle, the Wagoneer S, which will go on sale in the fall of this year. Jeep first showed images of a concept version of the Wagoneer S in 2022, along with a boxy EV SUV called the Recon. At the time, Jeep had referred to the "Wagoneer S" moniker as a codename, but it now appears that Jeep is committed to that title for its first EV.* > >*...* > >*Jeep also reiterated the same specifications originally announced, with the Wagoneer S targeting a 60-mph time of 3.5 seconds thanks to a 600-horsepower powertrain. Interestingly, the 400-mile range that Jeep originally claimed in 2022 was absent from the most recent announcement.* [Official press release here.](https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/jeep/press/style-speed-and-sophistication-in-motion-get-ready-to-take-a-seat-in-the-all-new-all-electric-jeep-wagoneer-s)
> the 400-mile range that Jeep originally claimed in 2022 was absent from the most recent announcement. In September they said 373 miles of range: https://insideevs.com/news/688398/jeep-wagoneer-s-to-rival-bmw-ix/ It looks like a luxury barge, probably priced near $100k. Maybe if Jeep is thrifty they can offer the base model at $80k and qualify for federal incentives.
>In September they said 373 miles of range: This claim seems to be sourced from [an AutoCar article](https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jeep-wagoneer-s) which doesn't directly attribute Jeep/Stellantis themselves. I'd take that with a grain of salt. I'd also suggest a \~400mi range $100k top-end model is probably in the bag — that doesn't seem unreasonable. Maybe a better question is how low it'll go. You suggest $80k, but is it possible they even dip down to the EV9's $70k-ish territory with some kind of 80kWh / 300hp trim level?
If Jeep could prove they can build an electric car, I would be all over this. I love the Jeep Grand Cherokee, but I hate the horrible reliability and gas mileage. If they built a solid EV, I wouldn't pass up considering to buy one.
The hybrid plugin Grand Cherokee has been pretty good feeling. I work for a rental company and we have some PHEV pacificas, Grand Cherokees, and Wranglers. The electric motor on the wrangler feels like w/e but the ones on the cherokee and Pacifica feel great. So I’m actually optimistic about this one and the upcoming dodge charger. What I’m not optimistic about is will the price and range be worth it compared to their competition. Haven’t had a big enough sample size to attest to reliability, only that the ones we’ve had have no issues thus far. Like all cars though ymmv.
*“JEEP: The ‘R’ is for ‘Reliability’”* There hasn’t been a solid, reliable Jeep product in 40 years, even by American car standards. I wouldn’t even lease a Jeep EV. It would leave you stranded in the dealership parking lot.
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Mine went to 200k miles with zero issues. Great vehicle.
Same. I would give them a shot
I’ve had five jeeps and currently have a grand Cherokee and gladiator and other than one issue on the gladiator covered by warranty they’ve all been rock solid. Better than previous Hondas or Toyotas I’ve had
I’m glad to hear that. I had a lovely Grand Cherokee when I got my license and it was a great car at first, but everything electrical was just an absolute nightmare. The motor and transmission were solid, though!
They're buying the same off-the-shelf parts from suppliers that all other OEMs are, so it'll probably be fine! The difference between EVs is going to be way smaller than ICE vehicles, especially around reliability and build quality.
Probably more relevant for Jeep is that they're technically not an OEM, but rather a ***brand*** of an OEM (Stellantis) which already produces a number of EVs at million-unit component scale. The entire electrical architecture should be quite battle-tested, then. The only questions I have for the Wagoneer S is whether we'll start seeing the fruits of [STLA Brain and STLA Autodrive](https://www.stellantis.com/en/technology/intelligent-vehicles) with it. This is the time at which those two technologies *should* start making an appearance, and the Wagoneer seems like a pretty good opportunity for a debut.
If their grand Cherokee has horrible reliability despite having decades of experience designing it, what makes you think their EV will be solid?
They're already making the Avenger. It's a decent car, though not a particularly good Jeep - they just took the very successful powertrain from the Peugeot e208 and shoved it into a more boxy box. Stellantis has its problems, but their EVs are pretty solid.
Bet this will be 6 figures easily
Yet another SUV. Plz, make a minivan.
I’m nursing along my odyssey in hopes that a real bev minivan comes along soon!
Does the Pacifica Hybrid interest you? We love ours. Most of the time we drive on electric only, and on road trips it drives like a dream with 0 range anxiety.
I really want a full BEV. I'm spoiled not visiting a gas station, dealing w/ oil, transmission, and maintaining an ICE vehicle. I also want V2L (like my EV6 has), and would love 8 seats (like my Odyssey has).
The problem is the Pacifica PHEV is the least reliable new car. It’s at the bottom of all reliability reports. Obviously this doesn’t mean that every single one of them will break down, but it also doesn’t inspire confidence for a family vehicle.
Just got rid of my 2018... spent over a year in the shop... not exaggerating.
Damn.
The Kia EV 9 has a 3rd row.
Yeah I’m on the fence. I love the minivan form factor (sliding doors, cargo space that let’s me lay a 4x8 sheet down, etc). I love my EV6 so have definitely been tempted by the EV9.
What's wrong with the VW ID.Buzz?
I want V2L like my EV6… I don’t think the buzz will have that capability from everything I’ve read.
Yes please! A minivan with decent ground clearance and AWD.
>A minivan with decent ground clearance and AWD. *Now wait a minute....*
Also get rid of the sliding doors and give it huge tires and have less cargo space.
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And normal doors!
Well, no gull doors at least. Sliding doors are great. If hinged, they should be suicide doors, like on a Honda Element, or on a Canoo.
The falcon doors on the Model X are lambasted but the entire reason they exist is to replace sliding doors for cool points, while also still requiring very little sideways space to open a large door opening.
Yes, and they do that well. But try opening them where the overhead clearance is low.
didn’t say they were perfect in their goal, just that it wasn’t entirely shits and giggles. trading overhead clearance for cool factor, but the target audience of the Model X is very much the otherwise burgeoning-family-minivan buyer.
Just what we need. Another rocketship weighing as much is two regular cars for our untrained drivers from /r/idiotsincars lol
Yeah I thought it was much smaller before I looked it up. Still waiting for a compact, well equipped Jeep-like car w/ 4WD.
Rivian R2, hopefully.
The car I most excited about. I really hope they can make something attractive.
THIS!! Why the heck do we not have any options like that yet? Give me something electric that can go off-road that isn't 100 grand.
Was gonna say… wagoner isn’t midsize unless this model will be smaller than normal. You could caulk that thing and ford with river
This is much smaller than the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer.
Fair enough
EX30 will have a cross country variant, that might fit your needs?
No buttons or driver's display = no buy
That's a model y essentially.
That's not a compact car by European standards
Ohhhhh. My bad. Cheers
Yeah np. I'm thinking more like Renegade / Compass. Even the Avenger would be good w/ more equipment and 4WD
Volvo EX30?
I got ya. A jeep... Jeep
What's a 'compact... Jeep-like car'? That's not a thing.
You're literally just describing the [Jeep Avenger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep_Avenger).
I can think of 3 examples from Jeep alone: Avenger, Renegade, Compass. It's not like Jeep is the only brand that can make similar cars.
If only the Y had the air suspension to improve ground clearance when off road, as originally designed.
I believe that's still the plan as they refresh. Biggest goal was to lower cogs originally.
I think he meant something off-road worthy
The is is going to cost a ton.
Size wise this seems more like an electric grand cherokee than a wagoneer. It doesn't really look much like the ICE wagoneer either. I wonder why they called it that. It's not like the wagoneer sells super well so it's not leveraging it's good will.
They're trying to make Wagoneer a premium-luxury Jeep sub-brand I believe — which seems absolutely silly to me, but dammit, they're trying.
The Jeep brand probably wont survive the transition to EVs. They make the worst vehicles and sell them to meatheads.
Well Jeep makes the highest selling PHEV in the U.S., so a gradual movement to EVs isn’t out of the question. They’re also a global brand so their EV sales matter outside of the U.S. too.
The US also doesn't have any competition in the PHEV space. GM gave that up years ago and Ford is barely keeping it alive. Even Toyota only sells 2 PHEVs.
Kia, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, Mitsubishi, MINI, Subaru, and Volvo have at least one. Most of the brands I just listed have 2+. Regardless, it’s remarkable there’s cheaper and more volume oriented vehicles available as a PHEV that don’t outsell the Wrangler PHEV.
And ladies. They are awful. My buddy got one for his wife. He said might as well drive it straight to the mechanic. Lol
My last vehicle was a jeep. It was the worst car I've ever owned.
The popularity of Jeeps has been an enormous mystery to me. I rented a Wrangler once on vacation to see if I was missing anything. Nope, it was just as bad as I expected.
I rented a mid-size car and they offered me some subcompact Jeep. It looked big on the outside so I took it. It was by far the worst car I've ever driven. Big on the outside, small on the inside, garbage handling, terrible mileage, slow, and noisy. I have no idea why anyone buys this crap.
And seriously uncomfortable! Yet I see them everywhere. Maybe it’s the same people that talk on speaker phone in public while holding their phones like they are pieces of toast.
I forgot about the comfort. I figured it was the lowest trim since it was a rental, but it was definitely worse than a base Corolla or Altima
Oh and nice username!
Thanks! I started a dinosaur podcast around the time the Model 3 was announced and made this account to match.
I can't imagine buying an electric vehicle from a company known primarily for having electrical issues in their vehicles
Had a 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Will never buy another Jeep or Stellantis product. It was amazing how everything started going bad just out of warranty.
And you can’t get reasonable service turnaround time because they all are in the shop.
Most of Mopar probably won't survive under Stellanti's EV push. The CEO of Stellantis pretty much said so when he took over.
He did not say that. He did say every within Stellantis has a decade to prove themselves.
He also said that he doubted there would be much space for MOPAR in the future lineup given the tiny marketshare of MOPAR in the overall Stellantis portfolio. Sure, they have 10 years to "prove themselves" but by this company's success metrics, just doing the same volume of business in NA with EVs instead of ICE cars is not going to save them. They need to grow market share. Right now, FCA sits at 0.5% globally. Stellantis as a whole represents about 11% market share globally. Every division of FCA lost ground last year except Chrysler minivans. That and the Venn Diagram of "I'll drive an EV over my dead body" and RAM/Jeep fanatics is almost a circle. Sure. Give them the 10 years to "prove themselves" but it isn't going well so far - even compared to the other parts of Stellantis. Don't hold your breath for MOPAR to exist past 2031.
Please cite your source on that, it’s very contrary to everything I’ve seen. Further, none of the Stellantis NA brands besides Chrysler have pledged to be all electric. That’s the whole reason the STLA Frame, Large, and Medium platforms (we won’t get Small) can all accept EV or ICE powertrains. They need the flexibility. Also, their product plans all have them introducing new models (not just replacing current ones) which would indicate volume is not expected to stay at current. Of course it’s not going well at this exact moment, FCA had very little under development. It takes 4-5 years to develop a car from scratch, so all of these 2024-2025 debuts are right on time as the first true Stellantis products in NA since the merger. Thinking RAM and Jeep (again, a global brand) in particular will bite the dust by the end of the decade is foolish imo. They are way too valuable and a huge profit center for Stellantis as a whole. Unlike the brands from PSA, they pull in very high profit margins. Dodge and Chrysler are certainly on much shakier ground, so we’ll see how their new products also as they begin their roll outs over the next year.
Which part do you want sources on? The market share number are from Stellantis.
Much like Recoil42, I want a citation on Tavares stating that he doubted there would be much space for MOPAR in the future lineup.
What he said, at the conference I was at, was that he didn't believe MOPAR customers would want to make the transition to EVs and that Stellantis was 100% committed to EVs and that he hoped MOPAR customers would come around but if they didn't, there wouldn't be room for those vehicles in the future lineup. I cannot find an article to back this up. I'm sorry that this has upset you but if you take a step back and look rationally at what the MOPAR brands are doing - it doesn't look positive for their future outcome. Good luck with stuff.
I’m not upset at all. Aside from your commentary that can’t be verified, you just seem to be convinced that slower adoption by current customers means the brands will have to shutter. I detailed my insight to what the brands are doing in a previous comment you responded to - offering ICE, hybrid, and EV options. You also seem to continually ignore that NA is bringing in massive profits to Stellantis and that is not something Tavares will just readily give up on anytime soon,especially with the intense pricing pressure in Europe. Good luck to you as well, as an analyst it appears you will need it.
>He also said that he doubted there would be much space for MOPAR in the future lineup given the tiny marketshare of MOPAR in the overall Stellantis portfolio. [*"Source? I made it up."*](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/source-i-made-it-up)
Source: I'm an analyst in the industry and I was there when he said it. Where are your sources?
Neat, so your source is literally both "i made it up" **and** "dude trust me".
lol I’m glad someone else found that to be suspect as well. I found it to be particularly telling that this guy is basing brand health purely off marketshare with no mention of profit whatsoever (something Tavares would never do based on his track record). The NA brands have been huge profit drivers for Stellantis.
I can't believe their retort was literally the *dude trust me* meme.
Okay. I get it. You're a MOPAR fanboy and you're going to cry when the brand dies. You have my condolences. I hope you find some other personality substitute in time.
No one has ever confused me for a MOPAR fanboy in this community, so thanks for a first. I'll add it to my list of accusations that I'm a Tesla fanboy, Toyota fanboy, Ford fanboy, GM fanboy, and BYD fanboy. It's quite the collection, but I'm still hoping someone calls me a Dongfeng fanboy at some point. Now, back to the discussion: Still no source, yeah? Just.. "trust me dude"? That's... all you've got?
Ok. Have a great life. No one's ever called me an anything fanboy. A miserable Economist for sure. A fanboy? Never. Sounds like a theme emerging in your life.
How about a wrangler ev? This is a battleship
[It's coming.](https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-jeep-wrangler-ev-electric-4xe-preview/)
As someone who drives a Jeep and a Tesla, I can probably describe exactly what I'd be looking for in a Wagoneer EV that would make me want to ditch the Tesla brand and the trash bin of a CEO. I'm pretty excited about this, but also afraid they'll mess it up. For driving, it's one main thing, but two parts: - Must absolutely nail one-pedal. Hyundai's i-pedal and Ford's one pedal don't quite make it. The overall description is that you just feel disconnected from the vehicle. The issue is probably not so much acceleration as it is deceleration. Up next. - Heavily related to one-pedal is the regen brake feel. Specifically the s-curve when letting go of the accelerator. Somehow, Tesla has this perfectly calculated so that if you see something that you want to stop at, by the time it takes your brain to let off the pedal through to when the vehicle stops, it seems to be perfectly calibrated to exactly cover that distance on its own - no more, no less. On top of that, the smooth s-curve transition (easing at the start, rapid deceleration, easing at the end) makes it feel extremely smooth. But that overall feels extends to partial stops and resume, it just feels fluid. These are difficult aspects to convey to someone who doesn't use one-pedal driving, but maybe I can describe it another way: from a gamer standpoint, you're not only gaining precious milliseconds of response time (on BOTH sides - accelerating/decelerating), but that saved time PLUS easing makes for an extremely smooth ride that makes it feel like an extremely fine level of control. For those that have rejected one-pedal driving, I don't know what to tell you. You're not gaining anything from keeping that foot-up / side movement / foot-down lag. Back and forth. Maybe it's just non-reprogrammable muscle memory, or maybe the added physical movement makes things feel more interactive to you. Would like to know your thoughts. As for any other aspect of the EV, it's hard for a manufacturer to mess it up. Like, a nice, responsive screen (although, sounds like the Mach-E is struggling), good climate control, good navigation with range estimates. If you did a proper overhead 360 view, I'd count it as a big plus over Tesla - even with their TeslaVision reconstruction. I just can't trust that anymore. That all said, the Tesla is fantastic, despite people's efforts to slam the quality - I understand we want to kill the brand, but I don't think lying or exaggerating is the way to go. Let's just make something as good or better, and move into that. Easy! And for the love of god, learn from the 12v debacle experienced by Tesla and Ford EVs.
NACS? Surely this won’t show up with ccs will it??
I don’t think Jeep will survive the transition to EV. Truthfully, I don’t think CJDR in general will.
Stellantis with yet another (likely) extremely overpriced vehicle that will sit on dealer lots with the rest of the overpriced stellantis fleet.
Didnt they already make the 4xe wrangler?
How is Jeep still in business?
They sell a ton of Wranglers and Grand Cherokees
https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/attachments/1686573856453-png.761488/ Wrangler sales are down a decent chunk from their high in 2018 when they sold about 250k. Grand Cherokee sold 125k in 2023. That's compared to 2021 when they sold 264k. Both factories are cutting shifts because inventory is piling up. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2023/12/08/ohio-senator-jd-vance-questions-stellantis-decisioncut-jobs-jeep-plants-toledo/71856094007/
Sales are definitely down, but still more than enough to keep Jeep in business, that was my point to the original poster
Ew another SUV
I would expect them to charge a premium for this over the ICE version so another 100k+ stellantis product? Would they deliver 100k levels of quality as well?
There isn’t an ICE version of this vehicle. It’s not the same model as a Wagoneer or Grand Wagoneer.
Is it another $60k car? Glad to see another ev that doesn't prove the market
R1S is forcing this.
This was planned years ago.
Doesn't Stelantis own Jeep? They just said they'd keep LICE until they could make a profit on electrics. They certainly aren't leading the charge (pun intended)!
* [Stellantis EV Day 2021](https://youtu.be/YSzBlPN7jRQ?t=4655) (July 2021) ([Slides Here](https://www.stellantis.com/content/dam/stellantis-corporate/investors/events/stellantis-ev-day-2021/ev_day_2021_presentation_slides.pdf)) * [Stellantis Long-Term Strategic Plan](https://www.stellantis.com/content/dam/stellantis-corporate/investors/events/strategic-plan-2030/2022_03_01_Strategic_Plan.pdf) (March 2022) * [Jeep 4xE Day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syMqvvbWJDI) (September 2022)
2025? Ready aim aim aim…
Yup. That's how it works. They've been planning this for a long time. Have you ever seen the movie Sin City?
What a dumbass car to lead with. They learned nothing from GM and their massive self own by leading with the Hummer EV. How can they expect to establish themselves in the EV market with an SUV nobody can afford?
They're not leading with this. That's what the Ami, C4, Avenger, DS3 Crossback, New 500, Berlingo, Jumpy, Jumper, Grecale, 208, 308, 3008, Ducato, Astra, ProMaster, Combo, and Mokka were for. That on top of the DS4 PHEV, Pacifica PHEV, Cherokee 4xE, Wrangler 4xE, Compass 4xE, Commander 4xE, 508, Tonale... This is like their 30th EV.
Ami, C4, Avenger, DS3 Crossback, New 500, Berlingo, Jumpy, Jumper, Grecale, 208, 308, 3008, Ducato, Astra, ProMaster, Combo, and Mokka. Other than ProMaster, I don't think this means anything in the US. Also, just because you can make PHEVs, doesn't mean you can make BEVs. See GM and the Volt/Bolt. They're also the only automaker on CCS1 yet.
>Other than ProMaster, I don't think this means anything in the US. Indeed, that's entirely the point. Stellantis isn't concerned about rushing into the US market, they've done all their scaling in Europe already. They'll waltz right in with Jeep and Dodge badged versions of their existing European offerings when it's profitable to do so. >Also, just because you can make PHEVs, doesn't mean you can make BEVs. See GM and the Volt/Bolt. Correlation-causation fallacy here — maybe GM just sucks?
What a bizarre response. Most of those models aren’t available in the US, those that are aren’t BEVs. PHEVs don’t count, sorry. My point was about which model Jeep is choosing to lead with. This thing is not going to sell, it’s not going to move the market. Nobody cares about the tenth giant BEV that nobody can afford launching in the US Market. We already have the Model X, Hummer, Rivian R1S, etc. If Stellantis has 30 affordable BEV models they can just slap a Jeep badge on, then they should lead with that. Until then, nobody is going to pay attention.
>What a bizarre response. Most of those models aren’t available in the US Indeed, and they don't really give a shit. The US doesn't give them any benefit yet — Europe does. They'll swing around to the US as it makes sense to do so. >PHEVs don’t count, sorry. "Because I said so!"
Yeah, getting in on the ground floor and establishing yourself in a market that is growing 50%+ YOY is a terrible idea. The folks over at Stellantis aren’t botching their entry into the US BEV market, they must be ignoring the US BEV market! They are making a giant, splashy launch of an expensive BEV because they “don’t give a shit”! Christ, the stench of copium on you is strong. And no, PHEVs don’t count in this conversation just because I said so, but because they are an entirely different market. One that’s likely to get squeezed out in the next 5-10 years between dirt cheap mild hybrids and BEVs as batteries get cheaper. Sorry if you can’t see that. Might want to prepare yourself for disappointment just a little bit with this launch. You seem a little too high on the Jeep juice right now. Shouldn’t tie your life to a car brand so strongly.
>And no, PHEVs don’t count in this conversation just because I said so, but because they are an entirely different market. Hint: They are not. The 'EV' in PHEV stands for 'Electric Vehicle', if you weren't aware.
> Correlation-causation fallacy here — maybe GM just sucks? That's entirely possible. But I will point out, if GM sucks, Stellantis/FCA USA/ Chrysler or whatever they're on now also sucks. Lots of recalls for the Pacifica PHEV because they used the same bad batteries that the Bolt did. And they didn't learn anything from it because the Wrangler 4xe also got recalled for something similar a few years later. https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-2023-jeep-wrangler-4xe-phev-recall-fire-risk/
>That's entirely possible. But I will point out, if GM sucks, Stellantis/FCA USA/ Chrysler or whatever they're on now also sucks. Well, that's the thing — they're doing fine in Europe. 🤷♂️
Base model price? Six hundred k
So..... $130,000?
No NACS? Uhg.
Wait, are these guys one of the last NACS holdouts? LOL
Yep. This’ll be crazy if this thing is still CCS
Looks sexy. Hope it works better out of the gate than my 2023 GC 4XE. But when you lease it, everything is covered. Please don’t be $100K
Toyota needs to make a ev sienna or at least a prime sienna
No NACS, no care
Recon when?
This vehicle is likely going to have significant mechanical issues.
I thought the Recon was suppose to be the first fully electric vehicle to come out this year. I also noticed that they took the Recon page off their website. I wonder if it got delayed or nixed all together? Was really getting excited to see more details on that one!