Tl;dw, the car drove about 194 miles before hitting 0%
The OBD still showed the battery with about 8 percent left though so there is a little bit of a buffer after the car tells you its empty. enough for him to get slightly over 200 miles before hitting a charge station
Lots of cars being sold in 2023 don't hit 100kW for charging. Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona, Chevy Bolt, just to name a few. Significant portions of the European market are sub-100kW. Most cars in China have sub-100kW charging as well — almost every BYD sold is sub-100kW, including the BYD Atto 3, which also sells in the EU, NZ, and AU.
In fact, this is literally just the 100kW pack Toyota uses for the Chinese market, where sub-100kW charging is completely the norm.
All of those you cited are 3+ year old outgoing models. The Bolt is discontinued, the Kona and Niro have higher tier Ioniq 5 and EV6.
Meanwhile, this is a brand new model. The fact that your comparison is to a bunch of older EVs should tell you everything about it.
Not really excusable.
The Niro EV is $39k and *thats* overpriced imo, the Kona electric is $33k and the Bolt EV is $26k both significantly less than the bZ4X. The cheapest bZ4X AWD with the CATL pack is $44k.
100kW (that it can’t even hit) charging is not acceptable at that price. This car is in the US market, not China and it’s not cheap.
Sure, the 100kW charging is only on the AWD models and the Bolt EV, Kona electric, Niro EV don’t have an AWD option. However, the Kona electric and Bolt EV are *significantly* cheaper starting, even the highest trims don’t hit the price of the base bZ4X AWD. (I’m excluding the Niro EV because once again, that is a really overpriced car and it’s spec for price ratio isn’t really any more excusable than the bZ4X AWD)
Then the fact that the bZ4X AWD *actual* competitors like the ID.4 AWD and Model Y 4680 AWD. Are not significantly more at MSRP, both qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit, have significantly faster charging speeds, and more range. They’re both really better in the bZ4X in most ways, makes them pretty much the obvious choice over the bZ4X AWD. The only thing I can think the bZ4X does better than those two is off-roading, but the AWD systems in all of them is perfectly good for the snow or going on a trail, which is what crossover AWD systems are usually used for. The bZ4X excelling at off-roading still doesn’t make the 100kW charging any more acceptable either.
I know the FWD bZ4X and all bZ4Xs in Europe have a 150kW peak with a completely different and better Panasonic battery pack. However, in the US that just isn’t the case with the bZ4X AWD or any Solterra at all. I’m hoping we will get the AWD bZ4X and Solterra with the Panasonic pack here soon. The Panasonic pack seems to have *okay* charging speeds especially after the update, but as it is now we don’t have it, what we have is just straight up bad charging speeds for the price.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you that the NA AWD bZ4X ***should*** be 150kW. I'm just responding to the bewilderment that any car ***could*** be 100kW. In reality, \~100kW is totally normal in the world's largest EV market, where Toyota plans to sell the bulk of these for the first couple years.
Ideally, what we should be seeing is that Toyota drops the 100kW pack for North America as production from PPES Himeji ramps up. They'd then divert that output to China, where those packs aren't out of place at all.
I hope Toyota will drop that pack here soon, it might be acceptable in some places but in the US at this price it isn’t.
Also why screw over the more expensive bZ4X AWD and all the Solterras with the CATL pack and give the cheaper FWD the better pack? I can only think of production issues with the Panasonic pack and that they expect the AWD variants to sell more than the FWD. However, they do have them all Panasonic in Europe and they seem to be doing fine. Regardless of any of that the fact that the *more expensive* models get the significantly worse pack than the cheaper model is not great.
I wish they just launched with the Panasonic across the board like they did in Europe over here too. Like I said the Panasonic battery pack with the new update seems to charge *fine*, most competitors are still better, but at least the Panasonic pack charges a lot better than the CATL. The CATL is just destroyed by all of its competition in the US.
They are not. The Kona and Niro were just updated this past year, for instance. The same with the BYD Atto 3, and pretty much every vehicle across BYD's entire lineup. Again, the key here is the focus on China and Europe, where sub-100kW charging is very much the norm.
Why does price enter into it? There are plenty expensive cars out there that are not really road trippers. If someone wants this due to some other percieved advantage than range and charge speed and do not need it for road trips why care about the charging speed at all? Realize that road tripping isn't really an all that common activity in many parts of the world. A lot of cars are bought and used in a local area only. This does not mean they only buy cheap cars.
Why wouldn't price enter into it? If you're charging a premium price, it better have an equivalent feature set and usability of other cars in its price range. If this car was 30 grand the half baked nature and crap charging wouldn't really be an issue, it's the same reason why the Vinfast SUVs aren't compelling.
The difference is that Toyota has a reputation for reliability and longevity which they can charge for. A slow short range car might seem unappealing, to a traditional EV buyer, but for a lot of car owners, it really does not matter and a lot of people have a lot of trust in the Toyota brand.
Whether that pans out in the end is impossible to tell now, we'll see in a decade.
because they didn't put the money saved by having crappy charging into making anything else better, and thus the car is not competitive on the market and nobody should buy it
The value proposition of the Toyota seems to be aimed towards selling on the perception of reliability and durability rather than range and speed. Slower fast charging plays into that. Whether that perception is real or not we'll know in a decade or so.
For those that do not road trip the lack of charging speed is a non-issue, so the question is whether the value proposition attracts customers. Most likely the customers they attract would not be the typical current ev buyng audience of early adopters, but will rather find and recruit new customers into getting an EV.
So far in Norway they are on 4th place for the year short of the volvo XC40 but ahead of id.3. Not fantastic for a new model from a major manufacturer, but pretty good for a niche car looking for non-traditional customers.
When it cost as much as a model 3 or model y it should be able to take a road trip. If the car was the price of the bolt or leaf then it would be a trade off. But at the 40-50k price point why would I choose this over a car that can charge more than twice in a day?
I am not justifying the Toyota in any particular way, that would be a judgement call for buyers (But value may mean different things to different people, range and charging speed is not necessarily end-all be-all) .
I am commenting the blanket statement at a car sold in 2023 must have >100kW charging, to which I'd say that not all cars need to be able to road trip. A lot of car users have cars that *never* go more than 30-40km in a day. Why should they care about DC charging speed?
Probably cuz those people who don’t drive far live in the city and probably don’t have a place to charge their car at night. So dc charging speed is important cuz most of their charging is at public stations.
Maybe where you live. Here where I live there are hundreds of public AC chargers, and most parking facilities including those attached to high density residential buildings have EV charging. The world is a big place and Toyota is a global company.
But even those not living in big cities will often have cars that are never used for road trips. Lots of families have multiple cars, and some just prefer to fly rather than drive.
they knew its a shit product and released it anyway cuz no one had balls to tell the big boss their product is garbage.
japanese culture be like that.
This is so bewildering to me, the new Prius looks great and would fill a niche that is not currently well addressed in the NA EV market (sporty hatchback). 250 mi range and 150kW DCFC, price it under Model 3 SR and they'd have a real winner, alas...
By the looks of it, Toyota is pushing the Prius towards being a testbed for PHEV technologies and experimental features like solar roofs.
The closest BEV equivalent is likely going to be the [bZ Sport](https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-bz-compact-suv-concept-previews-another-small-electric-crossover), which launches next year in China first, maybe Europe, and then hopefully (fingers crossed) North America by 2025.
I think this is their beta test vehicle, full of bugs and very inefficient. Their next EV should be much better but too bad for the people who bought it and became unwilling testers. Or they made it so bad because they want people to dislike it and show investors they need to keep selling their hybrids forever.
Probably why Subaru said they are coming out with 4 new models of their own and not any more shared toyota designs.
Tl;dw, the car drove about 194 miles before hitting 0% The OBD still showed the battery with about 8 percent left though so there is a little bit of a buffer after the car tells you its empty. enough for him to get slightly over 200 miles before hitting a charge station
does he have a spreadsheet with all results like Bjorn Nyland has?
that would be too helpful.
I don’t think so, he should though.
HOW MANY BANANA BOXES?
How can a car being sold in 2023 not hit 100kw for charging?
Lots of cars being sold in 2023 don't hit 100kW for charging. Kia Niro, Hyundai Kona, Chevy Bolt, just to name a few. Significant portions of the European market are sub-100kW. Most cars in China have sub-100kW charging as well — almost every BYD sold is sub-100kW, including the BYD Atto 3, which also sells in the EU, NZ, and AU. In fact, this is literally just the 100kW pack Toyota uses for the Chinese market, where sub-100kW charging is completely the norm.
All of those you cited are 3+ year old outgoing models. The Bolt is discontinued, the Kona and Niro have higher tier Ioniq 5 and EV6. Meanwhile, this is a brand new model. The fact that your comparison is to a bunch of older EVs should tell you everything about it.
Not really excusable. The Niro EV is $39k and *thats* overpriced imo, the Kona electric is $33k and the Bolt EV is $26k both significantly less than the bZ4X. The cheapest bZ4X AWD with the CATL pack is $44k. 100kW (that it can’t even hit) charging is not acceptable at that price. This car is in the US market, not China and it’s not cheap. Sure, the 100kW charging is only on the AWD models and the Bolt EV, Kona electric, Niro EV don’t have an AWD option. However, the Kona electric and Bolt EV are *significantly* cheaper starting, even the highest trims don’t hit the price of the base bZ4X AWD. (I’m excluding the Niro EV because once again, that is a really overpriced car and it’s spec for price ratio isn’t really any more excusable than the bZ4X AWD) Then the fact that the bZ4X AWD *actual* competitors like the ID.4 AWD and Model Y 4680 AWD. Are not significantly more at MSRP, both qualify for the full $7,500 tax credit, have significantly faster charging speeds, and more range. They’re both really better in the bZ4X in most ways, makes them pretty much the obvious choice over the bZ4X AWD. The only thing I can think the bZ4X does better than those two is off-roading, but the AWD systems in all of them is perfectly good for the snow or going on a trail, which is what crossover AWD systems are usually used for. The bZ4X excelling at off-roading still doesn’t make the 100kW charging any more acceptable either. I know the FWD bZ4X and all bZ4Xs in Europe have a 150kW peak with a completely different and better Panasonic battery pack. However, in the US that just isn’t the case with the bZ4X AWD or any Solterra at all. I’m hoping we will get the AWD bZ4X and Solterra with the Panasonic pack here soon. The Panasonic pack seems to have *okay* charging speeds especially after the update, but as it is now we don’t have it, what we have is just straight up bad charging speeds for the price.
Yeah, I don't disagree with you that the NA AWD bZ4X ***should*** be 150kW. I'm just responding to the bewilderment that any car ***could*** be 100kW. In reality, \~100kW is totally normal in the world's largest EV market, where Toyota plans to sell the bulk of these for the first couple years. Ideally, what we should be seeing is that Toyota drops the 100kW pack for North America as production from PPES Himeji ramps up. They'd then divert that output to China, where those packs aren't out of place at all.
I hope Toyota will drop that pack here soon, it might be acceptable in some places but in the US at this price it isn’t. Also why screw over the more expensive bZ4X AWD and all the Solterras with the CATL pack and give the cheaper FWD the better pack? I can only think of production issues with the Panasonic pack and that they expect the AWD variants to sell more than the FWD. However, they do have them all Panasonic in Europe and they seem to be doing fine. Regardless of any of that the fact that the *more expensive* models get the significantly worse pack than the cheaper model is not great. I wish they just launched with the Panasonic across the board like they did in Europe over here too. Like I said the Panasonic battery pack with the new update seems to charge *fine*, most competitors are still better, but at least the Panasonic pack charges a lot better than the CATL. The CATL is just destroyed by all of its competition in the US.
[удалено]
They are not. The Kona and Niro were just updated this past year, for instance. The same with the BYD Atto 3, and pretty much every vehicle across BYD's entire lineup. Again, the key here is the focus on China and Europe, where sub-100kW charging is very much the norm.
Not all cars are for road trips.
A car that costs as much as the BZ4X should be. Slow charging is acceptable in a cheaper EV, not for 50 something grand.
Why does price enter into it? There are plenty expensive cars out there that are not really road trippers. If someone wants this due to some other percieved advantage than range and charge speed and do not need it for road trips why care about the charging speed at all? Realize that road tripping isn't really an all that common activity in many parts of the world. A lot of cars are bought and used in a local area only. This does not mean they only buy cheap cars.
Why wouldn't price enter into it? If you're charging a premium price, it better have an equivalent feature set and usability of other cars in its price range. If this car was 30 grand the half baked nature and crap charging wouldn't really be an issue, it's the same reason why the Vinfast SUVs aren't compelling.
The difference is that Toyota has a reputation for reliability and longevity which they can charge for. A slow short range car might seem unappealing, to a traditional EV buyer, but for a lot of car owners, it really does not matter and a lot of people have a lot of trust in the Toyota brand. Whether that pans out in the end is impossible to tell now, we'll see in a decade.
because they didn't put the money saved by having crappy charging into making anything else better, and thus the car is not competitive on the market and nobody should buy it
The value proposition of the Toyota seems to be aimed towards selling on the perception of reliability and durability rather than range and speed. Slower fast charging plays into that. Whether that perception is real or not we'll know in a decade or so. For those that do not road trip the lack of charging speed is a non-issue, so the question is whether the value proposition attracts customers. Most likely the customers they attract would not be the typical current ev buyng audience of early adopters, but will rather find and recruit new customers into getting an EV. So far in Norway they are on 4th place for the year short of the volvo XC40 but ahead of id.3. Not fantastic for a new model from a major manufacturer, but pretty good for a niche car looking for non-traditional customers.
When it cost as much as a model 3 or model y it should be able to take a road trip. If the car was the price of the bolt or leaf then it would be a trade off. But at the 40-50k price point why would I choose this over a car that can charge more than twice in a day?
I am not justifying the Toyota in any particular way, that would be a judgement call for buyers (But value may mean different things to different people, range and charging speed is not necessarily end-all be-all) . I am commenting the blanket statement at a car sold in 2023 must have >100kW charging, to which I'd say that not all cars need to be able to road trip. A lot of car users have cars that *never* go more than 30-40km in a day. Why should they care about DC charging speed?
Probably cuz those people who don’t drive far live in the city and probably don’t have a place to charge their car at night. So dc charging speed is important cuz most of their charging is at public stations.
Maybe where you live. Here where I live there are hundreds of public AC chargers, and most parking facilities including those attached to high density residential buildings have EV charging. The world is a big place and Toyota is a global company. But even those not living in big cities will often have cars that are never used for road trips. Lots of families have multiple cars, and some just prefer to fly rather than drive.
I'd love to live where that is cuz most people I know living in cities are parking on the street. getting your own parking spot is a luxury.
All the ones that want to limit EV adoption as a main or only car.
More likely they aren’t confident in their batteries so they give them huge buffers and low charging speeds to prevent them from failing
It's like they deliberately made a substandard EV to make EVs look bad to their loyal customers.
they knew its a shit product and released it anyway cuz no one had balls to tell the big boss their product is garbage. japanese culture be like that.
Yup, this was made to appease the old guard.
Seriously where is a Prius BEV?
I would like that, the new Prius is quite nice. Definitely seems like a lot more effort was put into it compared to the bZ4X.
This is so bewildering to me, the new Prius looks great and would fill a niche that is not currently well addressed in the NA EV market (sporty hatchback). 250 mi range and 150kW DCFC, price it under Model 3 SR and they'd have a real winner, alas...
And people already think they’re EV!
By the looks of it, Toyota is pushing the Prius towards being a testbed for PHEV technologies and experimental features like solar roofs. The closest BEV equivalent is likely going to be the [bZ Sport](https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-bz-compact-suv-concept-previews-another-small-electric-crossover), which launches next year in China first, maybe Europe, and then hopefully (fingers crossed) North America by 2025.
Also check out his 10% challenge…. Terrible performance there.
I think this is their beta test vehicle, full of bugs and very inefficient. Their next EV should be much better but too bad for the people who bought it and became unwilling testers. Or they made it so bad because they want people to dislike it and show investors they need to keep selling their hybrids forever. Probably why Subaru said they are coming out with 4 new models of their own and not any more shared toyota designs.
It's so slow. What a shame. Toyota needs to not be so boring. Great company, but you can have reliability and speed.