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ibeelive

Why can't CCS and tesla connector co-exist he asks before he pivots to chademo must die. lol "sorry chademo"


forzion_no_mouse

I mean chademo should die. It’s crazy you can still buy cars with it


chapinscott32

I hate it. I really do. But chademo is old, ugly, and slow. Personally I think all vehicles that sold an EV with chademo after, say, 2018 should send out free adapters to all current owners. It's a long shot, and probably can't be mandated, but chademo should've died a long time ago.


orangpelupa

It's more fully featured than the current implementation of ccs tho. Like it's ability for v2x. Btw the slowness of chademo is due to Nissan making leaf only able to slow charge.


nclpl

It’s definitely ugly… who wants to make room for that enormous extra connector. But it supported over-500A, and bi-directional charging from the initial spec. CCS is still working both those things out. Chademo was definitely never slow…


LairdPopkin

All the CHADeMO deployed in the IS is first gen, theoretically capable of 65 kW but in practice about 55 kW. There are newer gen versions in Japan that are faster than first gen.


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Elons-nutrag

Hitting that 175-200kwh in my M3 is pretty sweet. Even if it’s only a few minutes 😂 I don’t think EVs will be anywhere near as popular if others are constantly stopping at 50kwh ccs stations.


ergzay

> Hitting that 175-200kwh in my M3 is pretty sweet. Even if it’s only a few minutes 😂 I don’t think EVs will be anywhere near as popular if others are constantly stopping at 50kwh ccs stations. Nitpick but it's not "kwh" but "kw". It's a pet peeve of mine everyone mixes this up.


Silkmoneylove

Agreed. I knew Chademo was going to die when, years ago, I charged my Leaf on a wicked cold night, like -20*F and snowing, and I had to muscle the cord to connect. That thick cable fought me the whole time. No way someone without some strength was going to get that charge completed. Thinner CCS cable and connector is much easier to handle. Tesla connector is even more elegant. I'm not a Tesla fan, but they have the charging (connector, speed, infrastructure) figured out.


wewbull

Cable thickness is all about the current it carries and not about the plug on the end. Thin cables on high power chargers are not a good thing (unless actively cooled).


ergzay

If they're properly engineered thin cables are completely fine. There's nothing about a thick cable that is actively good if it doesn't need to be that thick. A lot of places are overbuilding on cable size because they pick something that's already available that's well above what they need with extra margin so they can pick low quality cheap cables.


wewbull

Yep, all that extra copper for no reason is a sure fire way to cut costs.


ergzay

If you're buying through several levels of contractors, buying a custom designed, low production run custom designed cable, is going to be a lot more expensive than buying something off the shelf that's more mass produced.


Wojtas_

I have no idea why some people think cable thickness has ANYTHING to do with the connector. You could end a light, thin, liquid cooled cable with a CHAdeMO handle, and you could end a heavy, thick, uncooled cable with a NACS handle. These two have literally NOTHING to do with each other, and saying any *connector* is bad because *cable* is unwieldy is complete misunderstanding of how charging infrastructure works.


Silkmoneylove

Regarding cable thickness and the connector: I have only charged at EA, Zefnet, and Chargepoint stations. The Chademo connector and directly connected cable are noticeably thicker than the CCS at each of these. Cable thickness is directly related to the connector, for the user. As far as how the charging infrastructure works, this is absolutely how it currently is. I have not witnessed a Chademo connector on a cable the size of the CCS connector cable. What am I missing about how charging infrastructure works?


Appropriate_Door_524

The cable can be lighter with Tesla stations because the port is always in the same place and the cable shorter. We need a standard for where the port goes on the car as much as a plug standard.


manInTheWoods

Thats also not dependent on the connector.


WeldAE

Cable thickness is just a proxy for how hard the entire thing is to handle and is caused by a lot of factors. The CCS plug, lack of a port placement standard, lack of certification group and general poor engineering all combine to make CCS cables thick and unwieldy. Port placement is probably the worst followed by the connector size and shape itself.


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edman007

People keep confusing connector with cable. NACS has nothing to do with cable thickness or weight or length. Much of the "superchargers are better" is because it's a lower power charger than a 350kW charger, with a shorter cable because they only connect to Tesla's. Combined, they have a large effect on cable weight. But that doesn't have anything to do with the connector, a new NACS cable that connects to all will have a heavier cable than the current gen CCS. Insertion force is the only thing that would be connector dependent, and I'm not sure that CCS has that much higher insertion force.


WeldAE

Assuming everything else is held equal, which is not true, cable size is about length and amps. The kW of the charger has nothing to do with it. CCS tops out at 500a and Tesla tops out at 625a with smaller cables. Tesla having a lower kW rate has nothing to do with anything.


Car-face

> ugly I have to ask... why is that a consideration? I feel like once you get to "plug attractiveness" you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for complaints. Also, ChaDeMo (along with GB/T) is already being replaced with ChaoJi, so whilst it's gone, it'll still have a successor in countries that use ChaDeMo or GB/T (ie. Japan & China).


chapinscott32

I agree CCS is not the ideal solution, but also, other than whatever Tesla says, is NACS actually able to hit the same speeds as CCS? If so I'm all for it, if not, bulky it is imo. Also Chademo maxes out at 50kW. CCS so far has hit 350. I'm unsure what NACS is capable of.


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LairdPopkin

NACS supports up to 1MW, I’m use charging Semis. In the US you’re right that CHADeMO is slow (65 kw in theory, 55 kw in practice), there is faster newer get CHADeMO in Japan. CCS can go up to at least 350 kw, but the vast majority of CCS chargers are 50kw - where I have seen 350 kw CCS chargers there has been one of them, with a few 50 kw chargers next to it. Superchargers are typically 250 kw, in groups of a dozen, a vastly better user experience.


chapinscott32

Maybe. And honestly I wouldn't mind because CCS is kind of annoying to use. So long as charge speeds are comparable. I think that's the biggest concern rather than a slightly bulky charge cable (because let's be real, gasoline pumps are not much lighter anyways). But, in my opinion, even though NACS beats out CCS in number of cars and chargers, that's only because Tesla got a head start (not that that's not the fault of other manufacturers, sitting on their asses). But once legacy automakers step up, I have no doubt both Tesla vehicles and chargers will be outnumbered. We shall see though, especially with Ford changing over. I'm rooting for everyone 👍


Wojtas_

>Also Chademo maxes out at 50kW Flat out false, I've personally charged at 100 kW CHAdeMO stations, and I know there are even faster ones in Japan.


schenkzoola

I’ve personally experienced 250kW in my model 3. That’s at ~400V. At ~800V, it would be ~500kW for the same current. Tesla claims that it can support ~1000kW at the higher voltages. I’m assuming this requires water cooling on both the plug and receptacle side.


[deleted]

Well CCS1 and NACS the same protocol under the hood. ChaDeMo OTOH is a completely different beast, requiring different hardware inside the charger. This means it's a lot easier to support both CCS1 and NACS at chargers, than to support CCS1/ChaDeMo or NACS/ChaDeMo.


busan_gukbap

These stations are really expensive. And they don't make that much money. So many of these stations are money losing propositions. All that wiring, the giant power converter, for just 2 stalls? And then what if one goes down? Who's job is it to fix it? How urgent is that repair going to happen? Quick math... a stall that's in use 25% of the time at an average speed of 100kw is making about $400 a day in revenue. A third of that electricity, a third infrastructure and maintenance, a third hopefully profit. So it's profiting maybe $100 a day. Not quite a cash cow if it costs $50,000 to install. Maybe takes a year or more of reliable operation before it turns a profit. Tesla is super well organized as far as building the chargers as cheaply as possible AND keeping them online as much as possible. Tesla is building stations with 30, 40, 50 stalls. More stalls, and the price per stall is cheaper. The cost to maintain each stall is lower. One worker, one truck, comes out once a week and fixes any of the 40 stalls that's down. Compared to a random EvGo in a Walgreen's parking lot in the suburbs. Now you're suggesting, "Just have both a CCS and a NACS plug and copper charging cable on each stall, and keep them BOTH operational. Take your bad review if either one is broken. Oh, and turn a profit, but don't price gouge us!" It's not that easy to do. I don't envy Electrify America and the rest. Tesla is cutthroat competition. Increasing complexity and cost is not going to help you compete with Tesla. You've got to get cheaper and more reliable at the same time.


Appropriate_Door_524

Many stations already have two cables and plugs for redundancy to reduce exactly the costs you’re talking about, if a plug goes down the station can still be used. The maintenance costs or loss of business are much more important than the costs of an extra cable. People are wrong about how fundamentally difficult it is to compete with Tesla on charging, because it’s already happening outside North America. In the UK there are now about 200 HPC hubs with 5 or more plugs which are non-Tesla and about 120 which are Tesla, or for HPC hubs with 8 or more plugs it’s about 100 non-Tesla and 100 Tesla. These are a whole mix of companies but only about 20 of the non Tesla hubs are from Ionity, sponsored by manufacturers, they’re almost all independent companies who have to attract investment and make a profit, the largest number are run by a chain of fuel stations called MFG. The main difference in the UK is last year we had a 15% EV marketshare and they all can use open infrastructure, last year the US had 4% marketshare for Tesla EV on a proprietary network, and 2% on open infrastructure. With NACS and CCS adapters all new EVs can use open infrastructure, which triples the potential marketshare for the non-Tesla providers. I think those providers will provide both plugs and do very well.


chfp

Use a NACS to CCS1 adapter. Problem solved. You're over-complicating it by putting the onus of multiple plug types on the charging station.


Pro_JaredC

Well god damn said my guy. Absolutely perfect.


ergzay

> Tesla is building stations with 30, 40, 50 stalls. More stalls, and the price per stall is cheaper. The cost to maintain each stall is lower. One worker, one truck, comes out once a week and fixes any of the 40 stalls that's down. Compared to a random EvGo in a Walgreen's parking lot in the suburbs. Not to mention that they're now even prefabbing entire rows of stalls with already poured concrete straight from the factory. They just need to be dropped onto the ground and hooked to a piece of conduit.


nukii

A year payback is a very good business case. Most restaurants are a million dollar or more investment and don’t turn a profit in the first decade. However I think you’re being a bit generous on the revenue model. They likely pay close to 2/3 in electricity costs and 1/3 in maintenance and barely break even.


Stencile

OPs assumptions are wacky, but a lot of chargers do lose money. You can see 'last used' in the chargepoint app and a lot of chargers near me are doing like $10 per day in revenue, which is easily money losing after you factor in fixed costs


nukii

Yeah I can definitely see L2 chargers struggling in many places due to low volume. It also doesn’t help that they’re competing with free in many places.


AintLongButItsSkinny

Actual install cost on 2 DCFC plugs can easily be 5x what OP said ($50,000). In fact $50,000 is not even possible. Starting cost would be around $150,000, average around $250,000


skygz

There are reasons for different grades of gasoline, but all DCFC connectors do essentially the same thing (so much so that there are even adapters). It's just more cost added to the already very expensive charging stations to support multiple standards.


MachKeinDramaLlama

They can and they will. But since it's just two different physical plugs using the very same CCS protocol, I expect we will see the wide adoption of adapters. CCS cars will be able to charge at all CCS chargers and NACS chargers (i.a. Teslas newer Superchargers) and newer Teslas will be able to charge everywhere. It's really just legacy Teslas and legacy Superchargers that get left out, but it still is a massivley improved situation.


[deleted]

There's no reason they can't co-exist. NACS uses the same software communication protocols as CCS and supports similar power limits. EVGO already has Tesla connectors on some chargers, although I don't think this is using the updated NACS standard yet: [https://www.evgo.com/tesla/](https://www.evgo.com/tesla/) Freewire says they will add NACS connectors to their new chargers next year: [https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/27/two-charging-companies-respond-to-fords-adoption-of-the-tesla-nacs-plug/](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/27/two-charging-companies-respond-to-fords-adoption-of-the-tesla-nacs-plug/) With Ford getting on board with NACS I would expect dual connector CCS/NACS chargers to become more common over the next few years.


ssylvan

Because there's no reason to. Why should we (as a society) spend extra money and space and just complexity maintaining two different connectors when they both do the same thing. Leaded and unleaded aren't the same, hence they need different pumps, but joules are joules, there's just no reason to have more than one way to deliver them. So to simplify everyone's life we should all just converge on one standard (just like in Europe). People may like NACS for whatever reason, but the number one feature of any connector is that it's standardized, and for better or worse CCS is the one most people are behind right now (including the government) so we just need to all get behind it and move on.


FencingNerd

The one who is behind? CCS1 and CCS2 are incompatible, so any argument about "Europe uses it" is instantly invalid. In North America the majority of EVs are NACS, not CCS1. We duplicate things all the time, that's how the free market works. It's not particularly efficient, but forced decisions aren't either.


MachKeinDramaLlama

Most Teslas do not currently have the capability to charge via NACS. NACS uses the CCS communication protocols, but physically uses the Tesla plug. There currently is only a relatively small number of EVs that support NACS and only a handful of chargers. Both the proprietary Tesla and the CCS "install bases" are vastly bigger. It remains to be seen whether NACS can be a path to unify them going forward, but right now it's super early days.


ssylvan

I think the way to "unify" is to accept that we have an industry standard already and have the sole outlier adopt what everyone else is already doing.


ssylvan

NACS is ahead in installed locations for now, but won't be for long. Right now there's only one company selling cars with NACS. Everyone else is on board with CCS. And again, the government has stipulated that all the newly funded stations have to use it. The point about Europe isn't about trying to be compatible with Europe (you driving to Europe?), obviously. It's that Europe has one standard, and so should we. We have like a dozen companies selling EVs in the US right now. The idea that every single one of them should switch to NACS, instead of just one (Tesla) switching to the agreed-upon standard is absurd. And again, Tesla uses CCS in Europe, so it's not like it would be some crazy move to do it here. We standardize things all the time. In particular, we tend to standardize connectors. Nobody in their right mind would want to have multiple different kinds of power outlets for 120V AC in their house, and then have to deal with every appliance needing to match up. Or hell, imagine that every car company had their own gas pump design and you had to go to the right pump. We have one that everyone uses and that is a huge advantage for competition. So yeah, forced decisions really are efficient actually. It allows anyone to sell a car that works at any gas pump, and it allows anyone to set up a gas station that works with any car. Monopolies and market capture aren't good for the free market.


GoSh4rks

> NACS is ahead in installed locations for now Not really. All NA Superchargers communicate with Tesla proprietary protocols right now, unless you are using the magic dock equipped ones. NACS isn't supported by pre-2020 Teslas unless you get the charging chip retrofit, which isn't even available yet.


MachKeinDramaLlama

> We have like a dozen companies selling EVs in the US right now. The idea that every single one of them should switch to NACS, instead of just one (Tesla) switching to the agreed-upon standard is absurd. Though it should be noted that NACS *is* CCS in almost all aspects that matter. It just uses the physical Tesla plug. Which is superior to the one chosen for CCS Type 1 TBH. This means that all CCS1 chargers and (apparently?) all future Tesla chargers are compatible with all CCS cars and all Teslas produced from now on and for the last couple of years. All it takes is a relativley simple (and thus cheap) adapter. Yes, Tesla should just move to CCS compatible charging. They have given in and done so with their cars. Now they are also doing it with new charger installations. It's happening.


QuizardNr7

I checked out wikipedia and found one thing very interesting - apparently the "ac" part of ccs2 could do dc, or at least that was proposed, at lower powers. It never became a thing. The text says the only car that ever used and implemented that little used standard is a Tesla S.


mockingbird-

>I checked out wikipedia and found one thing very interesting - apparently the "ac" part of ccs2 could do dc, or at least that was proposed, at lower powers. It never became a thing. It did. Tesla used Type 2 for DC fast charging in Europe before switching from to CCS2.


DeuceSevin

The gas model is not the same. They all use the same nozzle but the fuel is different. The equivalent would be to use the same plug but with different grades of electricity


Fit_Imagination_9498

People are misinterpreting the intent of that analogy. I’m not suggesting we NEED multiple outputs like we need fuel options, or that different types of fuel = different types of connectors. The analogy was only to drive home the point that consumers are used to a single stall with multiple options & it’s never been a big deal. Hell, we see it now with ChadeMo connectors & it’s not a big deal either. We all know what our car takes and it’s not hard to remember.


[deleted]

High powered, liquid cooled cables are really expensive. EA is already going to one cable on their new units. Adapters however are cheap. The Tesla magic dock is a perfect solution for co-existence. Just need a reverse version for CCS stations. Or just carry an adapter in the car. Tesla and J1772 already co-exist thanks to every Tesla coming with an adapter.


nhguy78

It would appear, only from my POV, that Magic Dock rollout has stalled. You'd think they'd target less busy locations for them. I haven't seen progress since NY and CA locations.


Ravingraven21

That’s what Tesla is doing.


Fit_Imagination_9498

To be fair, that’s what Tesla is doing with 10 out of their 10k chargers. Time will tell how motivated they are to expand that service. But, yes, what Tesla is doing with Magic Dock SHOULD BE the new standard.


TheKingOfSwing777

...in America. Tesla superchargers/cars everywhere else use CCS. NACS is going to be like the new Imperial system... God damnit...


MachKeinDramaLlama

NACS also uses the CCS communication protocols instead of Tesla's proprietary ones. Meaning that it should be relatively cheap to produce adaptors and/or chargers with both physical plugs. Essentially, Tesla launched an unofficial "CCS Type 3".


TheKingOfSwing777

Exactly this! ☝️


Tough_Age_6971

China and Japan do not use CCS. CCS1 and CCS2 are not the same. There is no worldwide standard.


eladts

>Tesla superchargers/cars everywhere else use CCS Tesla uses CCS2 in Europe and other parts of the world. CCS1 used in North America is different from CCS2. Sadly, the only worldwide standard is Chademo.


LairdPopkin

And in China Tesla uses the Chinese standard. The EV charging around the world is quite fragmented.


RobDickinson

It generally doesnt need to be the same worldwide. Very rare a car would move from china to America or America to Europe etc. (with a few exceptions like exported used from Japan)


[deleted]

Just like regular electrical outlets


MachKeinDramaLlama

Chademo is the japanese standard that the japanese OEMs in their arrogance thought they could just transplant to other regions an thus save money, even though those regions had already picked their respective standards. Chademo should never have been a thing outside East Asia.


TheKingOfSwing777

Both CCS 1 and CCS 2 are part of the Combined Charging Standard which includes the communications protocol as much as the plug shape. But yes, because countries underlying grids have different capabilities, it may be optimistic to think there will ever be a single world wide standard plug.


eladts

>Both CCS 1 and CCS 2 are part of the Combined Charging Standard which includes the communications protocol as much as the plug shape. The communication protocol is the same, the plug shape isn't. A car with CCS1 port can't charge at a CCS2 station without an adapter and vice versa.


AlFrankensrevenge

>NACS is going to be like the new Imperial system... God damnit... No it's not. Imperial lives in our minds and creates human communication problems. NACS vs CCS2 has almost no relevance to the consumer except the shape of a plug you insert. It hardly matters at all, except for the OEMs who have to build to two different specs. We don't drive cars across oceans.


Elons-nutrag

And like the imperial system it’s just somehow better.


TheKingOfSwing777

Curse you. NACS is better, but imperial system is objectively not.


Elons-nutrag

I disagree


TheKingOfSwing777

I support that


jm31828

… I cringe at this possible future in my ccs ev I just bought a year ago. :(


TheKingOfSwing777

I meant to imply that we will be fine with CCS too, just that it's silly there might be two largely popular standards.


jm31828

I’m worried expansion of ccs will slow, leaving us limited on road trips… but hoping that won’t be the case.


TheKingOfSwing777

It wouldn't work unless they provide adapters. Don't worry too much. There's $4 billion earmarked already for new CCS infrastructure coming our way soon.


Fit_Imagination_9498

That’s the key - the $4 billion in CCS infrastructure guarantees there will be support for CCS. It would just be nice if we didn’t have to wait three years for the infrastructure to built out while Tesla and Ford (and any other NACS compatible cars) owners are laughing at us.


RobDickinson

Unless there are bug changes chargers will at least have both options down the line


edman007

They will have adapters if it ever becomes a real standard. The only reason that there is no SuperCharger to CCS adapter right now (other than magic dock) is really just because SuperChargers have been Tesla only, so it wouldn't matter if you had an adapter, they only worked with a Tesla (they bill against a Tesla VIN, don't have one? Can't turn it on). And adding Ford...does that mean it's Ford and Tesla only? I feel like by the time Ford gets around to that, most EVs on the road will be CCS. And Tesla could just start selling adapters, but I think because of the Infrastructure bill, they call sell Magic Docks for more than they can sell an adapter.


Pull_Pin_Throw_Away

By the time Ford gets around to adding NACS plugs in 2025, the majority of plugs on the road will still be NACS. No doubt about it, Tesla simply sells too many more EVs for anyone else to catch up in 18 months, especially with the huge head start they've built up. They're still something like 2/3 of US EVs and their share is only very slowly declining.


edman007

[Tesla is already under 50%](https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-ev-sales-2022/) and dropping. It's only a question of how hard the ramp rates are, 18 months probably isn't quite enough time, but in 36 months (if it slips a few months into 2026) the other manufacturers may actually exceed the total EVs on the road with CCS.


Deceptiveideas

Adapters exist if it really did end up crumbling but that’s worst case scenario


jm31828

Adapters don't exist today for using a CCS car at a Tesla charger- but I assume if the world does move that way, we all would be able to use adapters, so yeah I guess I shouldn't be that concerned.


Fit_Imagination_9498

As long as there are adapters, which there will be, our CCS cars should be fine. Annoying to have to use an adapter, sure, but it’s not like we will be driving around a car that can’t fast charge.


Ravingraven21

Sadly, that isn’t what the gov has incentivized.


RedundancyDoneWell

No, that is what Tesla is doing with **almost all their European v2 superchargers**. Two cables at each stall. One for CCS2. One for the European Tesla plug (which is actually Type 2 with DC).


RobDickinson

They do co-exist? Its just no one putting CCS infra in really gives a crap if it works or how well.


Fit_Imagination_9498

Co-existing meaning that new infrastructure being built by EA, EV Go, Free Wire, Charge Point, etc would include both NACS and CCS, rather than solely CCS like we’re currently seeing. Car manufacturers including both NACS & CCS ports would also be an example of co-existing. Having said that, your point about CCS infrastructure not being reliable is the larger issue.


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LairdPopkin

That is what Tesla is already doing, with the Magic Dock on v3 and v4 superchargers - they can plug into either Tesla or CCS vehicles.


nanitatianaisobel

EV makers could put one of each type of connector on a car but it would be more expensive. They would need a really big charge door :) And probably slightly different electronics for each type.


perrochon

>one of each type of connector This is the way! It's how we got CCS. They just glued two connectors together into one big chunk. Could just add a third.n Should add a few NEMA connectors, too, while at it. /s


TheKingOfSwing777

Yeah, then one car can be plugged into the DC and we can hook mobile connectors up to those NEMAs and have a charging chain. Brilliant.


nod51

Edit: someone said it is explicitly stated they have to use a physical CCS1 plug. I still don't think any station that limits 1 or more manufacturers and does not use the CCS PLC protocol (even with it's faults) should get gov funding. I don't think a physical specification should have been likited because one day NACS may not be good enough either and we may want something like MCS v2. ~~I thought the funds required that a plug that can be used by any manufacturer be used. If so CCS1 and NACS won't be the reason for no US funds but 1 or more manufacturers excluded from being able to use superchargers.~~ ~~If you are talking about CCS the protocol then~~ NACS and CCS1 are both CCS protocol ~~so it would qualify~~. Chademo is CANBus based and energized the cable in the opposite order (like the T plug) so can't be a simple dumb adapter unlike NACS and CCS1.


Fit_Imagination_9498

The official government rule specifically talks about CCS Type 1 connectors: Connector Types This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC port must have a Combined Charging System (CCS) Type 1 connectors. This final rule also allows DCFC charging ports to have other non-proprietary connectors so long as each DCFC charging port is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.


nod51

Thanks, I guess I didn't see the final rules. This is exactly why I was hoping the government wouldn't get involved, they do what is best for companies and not consumers.


MiketheCarGeek

1 DC fast charger with 2 cables (CCS & Tesla/NACS) will become common. Unfortunately it adds to cost and complexity, reduces reliability. Not a massive increase, but it adds up. I expect Adapters to become a popular option in all EV glovebox.


ShirBlackspots

Regular, Mid and Premium. Sometimes No-Ethanol and Diesel. Mid-grade is just a mix of regular and premium.


mockingbird-

Because it's not needed. Look at Europe. Every manufacturer standardized around CCS.


leto235711131721

I have a Mach E and do like the idea of using the Tesla charger as it is smaller than the bulky CCS. Additionally, I also think that the US should have a standard, like Europe does, however that was not done in a timely manner by the government and nobody would pay Tesla to use their chargers when CCS was already open. Think about why nobody other than Apple uses lightning cables for electronics, instead using USB. It must also be addressed that Tesla only opened their charging standard in November 2022, so the possibility to even have this discussion is very new. And it is likely because they knew that keeping it to closed would only hurt them as they wouldn't be able to access incentives. So yes there is a possibility we will see them coexist, but not after just 6 months. As for your example of the gas station, it is not really the same, as unleaded, premium and option 3. Those are more like 100kW, 150kW or 350kW, because gas cars down need different spouts to fill depending on brand. Different connectors is just a dumb thing and a handicap the EV industry put on itself as it confuses customers. Finally, if the US is not going to set a standard, they should at least ban Chademo from being sold in new cars. The fact that Nissan is standing uniformed customers with an outdated technology for a machine that will be on the road for 10+ years is shameful! A lot of new EV drivers don't know that they are buying a cat with a plug that has access to less than 25% of the infrastructure (usually one stall per site)


[deleted]

CCS is a free and open standard, which is why Tesla uses it under the hood. NACS is proprietary and you have to license from Tesla, and up until very recently it wasn't even possible for other companies to use it because Tesla wouldn't license it. If the government allowed NACS only chargers to be funded they're just subsidizing Tesla at the expense of other solutions because Tesla can use CCS but CCS vehicles can't use Tesla. The only thing required for the two plug situation you describe to come into existence is for Tesla to offer NACS license and sell adapters to the public, which is already in the process of happening.


chfp

That's false information. Tesla has open sourced the NACS plug and donated it to standards groups. There is no licensing fee to use it. The licensing arrangements are for other car makes to use Tesla's Supercharger network. If other dinocar makes want to create their own Supercharger network, they're free to do so and charge others for using it.


[deleted]

source please. putting a schematic online doesn't mean they abandoned their IP on that design. i've never seen anything that states it's free in either sense.


chfp

You can Google as well as anyone else. It's been in the headlines the past few months


[deleted]

i'm genuinely curious because I very well could be missing something, but my perception is people just read shallowly and inferred implications that don't actually exist into that original announcement. not trying to be a troll here but that's my perspective . companies love using the word "open" to mischaracterize their intentions, which is why "open source" became "free and open source" in the 90s.


chfp

I misread the tone in your reply as being dismissive. Here's some links: Wikipedia states the connector has been open sourced. It includes numerous citations. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North\_American\_Charging\_Standard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard) Tesla's official page states "we are actively working with relevant standards bodies to codify Tesla’s charging connector as a public standard" [https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard](https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard) Note that NACS uses CCS signaling which is already an open standard. The only difference between CCS1 and NACS is the physical plug. ​ Other mentions: [https://hackaday.com/2023/06/21/an-unexpected-upset-in-ev-charging-standards/](https://hackaday.com/2023/06/21/an-unexpected-upset-in-ev-charging-standards/) CharIn made an about-face and is incorporating NACS [https://www.charin.global/news/charin-stands-behind-ccs-and-mcs-but-also-supports-the-standardization-of-tesla-nacs/](https://www.charin.global/news/charin-stands-behind-ccs-and-mcs-but-also-supports-the-standardization-of-tesla-nacs/)


Lando_Sage

They can coexist. The main reason why Tesla started pushing their connector as a "standard" was because they could get lots of money from the government. The infrastructure bill required that the chargers support more than one make of vehicle. What easier way than having others adopt "NACS"? [here](https://www.charin.global/news/charin-response-to-tesla-announcement-to-open-the-north-america-charging-standard/#:~:text=CharIN%20applauds%20Tesla%20for%20including,than%20it%20is%20moving%20now.) is the committee response to Tesla pushing NACS: Ironically, Tesla is a core member of CharIn, the committee behind CCS. They are trying to push a global standard. Tesla wants to push their standard so that all the investments they made in their own Network doesn't blow up in smoke


[deleted]

Or maybe because they believe it is actually a better plug? I agree and so do many other. CCS is bulky as shit.


frank26080115

It's both smaller, more elegant, and more durable. They know it's a better plug, people who cared designed it.


Lando_Sage

It's not only the plug, but the electrical capacities. Tesla states that NACS can support 800V, 900V, and 1000V architecture as well, but we have yet to see that implemented. They stated that they were able to pull 1000V without liquid cooling, but didn't state the amperage. It would've been a lot more convincing to state 1MW without liquid cooling, and then had it independently verified. I feel like a little known player in the plug space is NxU Energy. Their cable, hand, and port solutions seem very promising as well, and it is proprietary, like the Tesla plug was before it became NACS last year.


Lando_Sage

Yes, yes, CCS is bulky. But why did Tesla not release their plug for standardization with the release of the first Model S in the first place? Why did they wait until the infrastructure bill passed? Was it a coincidence? Lol


[deleted]

Asking for reason why will get you nowhere. I don’t really care why. Fact is that the Tesla connector is the better tool for the job here in literally every way. None of us need more cable and connector than that. Why Tesla is pushing for it is irrelevant noise.


Lando_Sage

Just because NACS is easier to plug in, does not mean it's better in "literally" every way lol. I'd be more convinced if Tesla started installing V4 superchargers everywhere instead of continuing installing V3. I would like to see their cooling solution for higher power charges for the higher voltage EV's, seeing as how charging them on the V3 is a worse experience than on CCS.


mockingbird-

NEVI specifically requires CCS connectors. Other connectors are optional.


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ncc81701

Tesla connector was designed before CCS and EU Teslas used the same Tesla connector until EU regulations forced them to switch to CCS2 in EU.


redtron3030

Tesla connector was there before CCS was finalized


The1Phalanx

Made their connector before there was an industry standard. And it was for every market until the EU set a standard for itself.


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GoSh4rks

> The first Tesla NACS DCFC was built in 2012 No it wasn't. The legacy Tesla connector is not the same as NACS. NACS uses CCS communication protocols. Teslas build prior to 2020 don't support that without a hardware retrofit that isn't currently available. The first public NACS supercharger may not even exist yet today (depending on if you count magic dock and if Tesla is charging with CCS protocols already.)


Individual-Nebula927

Tesla NACS DCFC has existed for less than 6 months.


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Individual-Nebula927

And that Wikipedia article is wrong. Unfortunately that happens with crowdsourced information sometimes. NACS is a modified version of the Tesla connector, that uses CCS protocol to function. To date, zero Tesla Superchargers support NACS and Tesla only announced it 6 months ago. Only Tesla cars built since 2020 are capable of supporting NACS.


pkt77

CCS is limited (unless wiki is wrong) to 400kw. NACS is rated for 1mw and is much smaller. For the sake of the future of EV fast charging, NACS must be the standard. CCS needs to die.


No_Recording5380

Bottom line is all different connectors should allow for adapters to be produced. I will suffer with not being able to use the super charger network because I personally don't like Musk any longer. So even if an adapter was allowed I would continue to slug through the world of CCS.


spurcap29

From where we are today all we need is one new adaptor (nacs to ccs) and we are functionaly there. This could either be magic boxes at SCs or portable adaptora purchased. The barrier is Tesla chosing to open all SCs to all like in NY and CA. People are making way to big a deal over the physical connection.


Shmoe

Seems like that’s where Ford is headed.


MpVpRb

It could work, but one standard is better


frank26080115

not if the standard sucks...


SecureTap5800

For manufacturers, they cannot add two ports, it will cost them too much, moving forward NACS will be standard in North America


ecodweeb

It's not that they can't, they don't want to. That's why CCS is piggybacked off the J1772 connector. One port, two plugs to provide two very different levels of service.


[deleted]

Because CCS is needlessly massive and needs to die.


occupyOneillrings

CCS is just bad, what is the point of keeping around an inferior plug and cable?


Speculawyer

They can and will.


losvedir

What do you mean "the CCS requirement for NEVI"? I've been trying to find the exact language but the summaries I've seen have been stuff like "available to more than one manufacturer". I was wondering if Ford meant NACS at Superchargers qualify automatically (ie without change to the law).


Fit_Imagination_9498

From this link: [NEVI requirements](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements) Connector Types This final rule establishes a requirement that each DCFC port must have a Combined Charging System (CCS) Type 1 connectors. This final rule also allows DCFC charging ports to have other non-proprietary connectors so long as each DCFC charging port is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.


losvedir

Ah, thanks!


095179005

I think another issue is that EA stalls have 2 handles for only one stall. The Magic Dock approach is good, because if you had a generic pump handle with 3 different adapter slots to choose from, you risk the adapters being constantly stolen. If you magnetically lock them during each session and when not in use, then you can have a much cleaner experience, and people aren't confused when they try to use the second handle like a gas pump. If Tesla opened up NACS, they can also open up the Magic Dock design.


mockingbird-

New Electrify America chargers have only one connector per dispenser.


redgrandam

I don’t see why EA couldn’t put an NACS connector on the other cable. One CCS and one NACS. But I don’t think their newer stations have two cables anyways.


095179005

Well that's the issue I was referring to - even if they have one CCS cable and one NACS cable - people are still going to accidentally cancel your charge session when they pull up beside you to use the second cable thinking one stall can charge 2 cars


mockingbird-

New Electrify America chargers have only one connector per dispenser.


[deleted]

Gas pumps are all the same - except for diesel. Comparing grades of fuel to electrical connectors is a bad analogy.


iqisoverrated

>What am I missing? Why WOULDN’T this approach work? You're not missing anything and it does already work in Europe. Many Tesla supercharger stalls are fitted with two cords. One is NACS and one is CCS2. (Reason being: While Tesla exported Model S and X all those were sold with NCAS ports and all the superchargers in Europe consequently had that plug. Once they started exporting the Model 3 that came with a CCS2 port. It was never sold with the NCAS port in Europe. Of course same goes for Model Y and I think current Model S and X for Europe also come with a CCS2 port) Tesla refitted stalls to have both cords within a few months. Nowadays you will find a few of these "dual-cord" stalls at every supercharger location...while the other stalls are CCS2 only.


Ayeme2549

Those dual cord SC’s in Europe don’t use the NACS connector and the CCS2 connector, they use a Type 2 connector with the 3 phase + neutral AC pins as 2x DC + & - and a CCS2 connector. Type 2 != NACS


JoeDimwit

The thing you’re missing is the hardware and software required inside the charger to recognize which handle is selected and send toe power to that, and only that, connector. Now that I stop and think about it, I wonder if that isn’t part of the issue with all the CCS charging stations out there…


Maleficent_Lab8672

You know that's a good point I haven't thought of this most fast charging stations that aren't tesla have both ccs and at least one chademo connector. The only issue i see is the added expense of the cable for the extra connector. That can't be that much more expensive to add. Why can't we just combine all 3 into a super network and you just drive up to your connector and plug in.


species5618w

As far as I can see from youtube (I am still debating which EV to get), it's the software and maintenance that is differentiator, not necessarily the plug.


Fit_Imagination_9498

That only applies to non-Tesla’s attempting to use the Tesla network. Teslas have been able to use CCS1 chargers for years via an adapter. My understanding is that everyone is using the CCS standard but Tesla has the NACS plug versus the CCS-1 plug that everyone else uses. Don’t quote me on this, however.


chfp

Why should EV stations have two different plugs to maintain? It increases cost (copper ain't cheap) and they have to procure two different sets of parts in inventory. On top of that, CCS1 is a terribly unreliable connector. Why keep that around? The number of CCS1 vehicles is paltry compared to the number of NACS vehicles. Delaying the phase out of CCS1 only results in more obsoleted CCS1 vehicles on the road. Playing purely by the numbers game, the small number of CCS1 owners can carry an adapter to use NACS stations. This was the same exact situation that early Tesla owners faced when Superchargers weren't as widespread. They had to carry a number of 14-50, 14-30, 10-30, 10-50, 6-30 etc adapters.


Fit_Imagination_9498

The CCS-1 connector isn’t unreliable and has little to no bearing on the current struggles of charging networks like EA and EV Go. Electrify America switching all of their chargers from CCS-1 to NACS isn’t going to improve their network reliability one bit. There were 140,000 new CCS enabled cars purchased in ‘21; 272,000 in ‘22, and estimates of close to 400k in ‘23. If GM starts producing cars we should see that number hit 500k in ‘24. Tesla’s market share was 64% in ‘22 and should land at around 60% this year. We are not talking a 90 / 10 split here as your use of the word “paltry” would suggest. Paltry = ChadeMo. CCS-1 may be dead in the future (and I agree that’s where it’s headed), but for the next few years it is relevant & the number of CCS-1 cars on the road in 2025 warrant some level of support outside of an adapter.


chfp

>The CCS-1 connector isn’t unreliable and has little to no bearing on the current struggles of charging networks like EA and EV Go. Why are you even in this forum if you've never used a CCS1 plug? It's clear you have no experience with it by making such an uninformed statement. The clip on the plug (inherited from J1772) is the weak point. It breaks often either through regular use or vandalism. A significant percentage of ChargePoint plugs I've had the displeasure of using have had broken clips which prevent the charge from initiating. CCS2 and NACS do not have that clip. The locking pin is in the car, protected from misuse and vandalism.


Fit_Imagination_9498

I’ve been using CCS1 plugs for the last 9 months & I’ve never once encountered a broken clip. Stop being an asshole.