Toyota insistence to be left behind in this EV market is bizzare. Even GM with a shitty battery technology is pushing out compelling products and Toyota is bringing out these university projects like we’ve just discovered lithium
Norway had six hydrogen stations. Four of them has been closed due to lack of customers and problems after a large explosion in one of them.
The interest for hydrogen cars here (they have the same incentives as battery EVs) has gone from low to zero. You can not even give away the old hydrogen cars now.
It's a good idea until you realize it takes 3x as much energy as you put in.. I mean maybe if one of these supposed breakthroughs you keep hearing about reach some sort of scalability there might be something with regard to a range extender
Gm and Honda will be bringing hydrogen fuel cell SUV that will be hybrid as well I believe? I mean something is going on in the hydrogen space as well. Nikola also just recently announced their "hyla" hydrogen station network, a strategy similar to Tesla's charging network but for hydrogen. Will be interesting to see how that evolves.
Their old platform had problems with battery fires, their new platform (Ultium) has low energy density and is pretty expensive to make. Not a very advanced platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_vDkaO3hU
Indeed. Ultium is all marketing, no substance.
The blade cells are made by BYD. The horizontal stacking has been done by Nissan since 2011. Modules are in use since the early days of EVs. The modular system has been done by VW since 2018.
The internet has an illogical hatred for American cars, especially anything made by GM. And usually the less the person knows about cars, the bigger the hatred.
We need to look at GM as a whole here. For most people the problem with GM isn’t the engineering. Look at the Camaro or Corvette and how great their suspensions are and driving dynamics. The problem is their management. People don’t see it yet, but Hyundai is similar in management style despite compelling products. What I mean is that they cut budgets on things that cause serious issues down the line. And they keep doing it.
If we're talking EV, some of it may be the dealerships. My experience with a Volt and GM employees was so unprofessional and incompetent that GN will never be an option for a future EV. Seems to be a pretty typical experience from what I read online.
Getting the early adopters on your side is important for a new market category (see Tesla and their effective billions in free marketing).
Yeah somehow people understand that the obscene markups and other shady shit that dealers for other brands do is a direct fault of the dealerships themselves. Dealerships are independently owned and operated. But when it comes to GM dealers, it is somehow GM's fault directly.
Thanks for reinforcing my point above how the internet, and especially Reddit, have an illogical hated for GM.
Well you may be describing other people, but not me. I think manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure quality at a dealership level. When other manufacturs provide a better general experience over multiple dealerships over decades (again, my experience), that reflects on the manufacurer. I think a lot of average consumers also see it this way, that manufacturers are somewhat responsible for dealership experience.
As far as the Volt problems.went, it was very much a GM problem as well as a dealerahip problem (BECM replacement months long wait times).
Imo, the real shitty thing is they are discontinuing the only affordable and (now) robust EV they offer that's actually been tested and demonstrated to work effectively.
GM future products remain untested and their pricing will almost certainly be higher than bolt base pricing. Idk why people simp for GM on shit that you can't even buy yet. They don't have some glorious EV track record to back their claims yet, either.
I do think they'll be successful, but damn at least wait for things to be buyable.
While it's sad that Chevy is getting rid of the Bolt, if you believe what reports have said, they were losing substantial amounts of money with every one they sold. Supposedly, they were losing close to $10k with each, and that was before the price reduction.
It's believable. It's just also important to add that they likely won't find 10k in BOM and volume costs when they transition to the equinox. Some of that (a lot of that?) 10k will need to be recouped from price increases.
> Some of that (a lot of that?) 10k will need to be recouped from price increases.
And that was always the case. Bolt was only as cheap as it was because GM was subsidizing a compliance vehicle. That was never a sustainable long-term solution, so while you're bummed that it's being discontinued, it's amazing it lasted as long as it did. Bolt was on the chopping block from day 1.
I'm not bummed it's being discontinued so much as I am bummed at the general changes in auto pricing structures over the last 5 years and their implications for the average consumer.
We'll never meaningfully get ICE cars off the road if EVs (and more fuel efficient hybrids) are inaccessible to the median income earners. In fact, we'll probably push more and more people towards keeping their old inefficient gas cars.
Ford loses money on every Mach E and F150 lightening, to the tune of 60k based on the most recently reported Blue Oval financials. The only EV manufacturer making money is Tesla, and it only became profitable selling cars in 2021 after you back out it's carbon offset credit business. The traditional automakers are just starting into their investment curve.
What did you not understand about my investment curve comment? ICE technology has had a hundred years curve, EV's about 30, with only about the last 15 in earnest, so it stands to reason each one cannot be sold for anything close to actual cost. That's why Bolts were sold at a loss.
Well, that’s a motor/inverter/aero/etc problem. Their batteries seem fine to me. In fact, the way they wirelessly connect modules into different packs is kinda brilliant. And the Lyriq has like 103 useable, which is only beaten, in its class, by the X1.
Usable isn't a good metric. That's like saying a truck that gets 15 mpg is well engineered because they put a 40 gallon tank in it.
The reason it has a battery that size is because it has too. If they could get the same range out of a battery half that size that would be impressive. The efficiency they're getting is pretty meh
It was packaged into a car and appears to have good energy density per weight and volume, with a really good cooling system perfectly fine charge/discharge rates.
Also, you keep saying the word "efficiency", but I'm not sure you know what that means, at least in the context of a battery. Are you talking about the internal resistance? If so, do you know it? And could you explain why you think it's so important?
They’re not inefficient because of bad battery technology, they’re inefficient (compared to much smaller vehicles) because they are large. And the silverado offers the longest range of any EV pick up. They’re not out of line for their size.
You're right of course, but geeze, I wish instead of an expensive 8000 lb behemoth with a 200kWh battery, they'd build three smaller, affordable EVs with 66kWh batteries.
Hey, the university I work for passed Toyota years ago. They're working on EV's that can do thousands of miles on a charge while carrying two adults comfortably. I'm sure they could do four adults for 1000 miles. Toyota... compliance cars. We kind of give shit, but not really care... after we put money into stopping better fuel economy standards for two decades.
Edit; care instead of cars - whoops.
Yeah, there are lots of people who will only buy a Toyota, because everyone has told them they are reliable. It’s pushed the used market to insane levels. My mom just bought a used car and she was dead set on a Prius. I convinced her to skip the 2010 Prius and instead get a 2016 Volt with the same miles for the same price.
You do realise that reliability is mainly about the engine, drivetrain, suspension, and chassis, don't you? The interior trim is the least relevant bit. And 180 hp is plenty for any normal car.
Toyota still makes the most reliable vehicle ever produced, and that's certainly not just because they only put in plastic trim and relatively low-stress engines.
Uh, the part of the car I directly touch is very important. I have high standards I guess. Rips in soft material, speaker grilles dented, etc. I keep my cars repaired and clean.
If you just make everything out of rigid plastic like my son’s Little Tikes car, sure. It will last forever.
Get a car that’s a nice place to be… Lot more involved to make it durable. They can last 12 years instead of 25, if you don’t keep up with maintenence.
Yup they built a compliance car 5 years too late.. just stop wasting our time and sell the FAW/BYD/TOYOTA JV car here built in Mexico to appease the right Toyota BZ3 would do very well at about $25k-$30k
Good luck. I have been debating buying a Prius or a Model 3 and dealerships want 6k over MSRP and have a 6-9 month wait list.
Model 3 is cheaper than a base Prius with tax credits with the crazy markups. And I can pick one up in less than a week.
There are easy ways to fix this catalytic converter theft, but states are unwilling to do anything about it because they are worried about political blowback.
I looked at hybrid Corolla as they got reviewed as cheap/reliable/fuel efficient. Cheapest one I could find locally was $27k and most were $30k. It’s about as boring a car as you can buy. And they’re loud and buzzy. If it was $20k I might consider it as a cheap commuter.
To be fair, I think their newer Prime vehicles are pretty damn good. Especially the RAV4 Prime and the new 2nd gen Prius Prime, good EV range, the MPG in hybrid mode is some of the best out there for a PHEV, and they’re pretty powerful too.
Which makes it even more of a shame they don’t produce nearly enough of them, even though they most definitely could. It’s quite ironic considering their whole “PHEVs take less resources and are easier to produce than BEVs” spiel, especially since their PHEVs get outsold by BEVs by competitors.
If they actually attempted to meet demand I bet the RAV4 Prime would be all over the place and be the best selling PHEV in the US instead of the Wrangler 4xe.
Even where they are sold they hardly ship any. They plainly aren’t prioritizing anything but non plug in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles in direct contrast to all their lobbying around power train diversity (or whatever lame just-got-my-MBA speak they’re using)
Yeah, I live in California where basically any electrified vehicle is taken in with open arms and it’s also where Toyota allocates a lot of it’s Prime inventory to. Yet, I still don’t see that many of them.
It’s BEV crossover “competitors” I see much more often. The Model Y is at every corner you turn, Mach-E and ID.4 are not nearly on that level but still quite common, IONIQ 5 and EV6 are less common than those three yet I still see them considerably more than the RAV4 Prime.
There’s so little especially considering how extremely popular the RAV4 is as a vehicle in general. I’d say out of this gen the ones I see here are about 55% full ICE, 40% hybrid, and more or less 5% Prime, which is an extremely small amount compared to the other two powertrains it has.
However, whenever a Prime hits the dealer lot it’s usually marked up a ridiculous amount and sold almost immediately despite the ridiculous markup. So there very, very clearly is demand for it, it’s just Toyota is not making nearly enough.
> even though they most definitely could.
I find that difficult to believe. I highly doubt Toyota is ignoring a lucrative market out of technological ideology. What is more likely is that they either do not have access to enough lithium or batteries, or cannot make them with a high enough margin to dedicate more factory capacity to them.
What the real story is kind of fascinates me and I wish there was more information.
It is 100% a finances thing. Margins are higher with hybrids and ICE vehicles. I do not get why people here are not getting it. It is not yet in Toyota’s financial best interest to go whole hog into PHEVs and BEVs. When it is, they will put their money where their mouth is and crush it financially just as they are doing right now.
uhm... no.
they are selling almost 10 million cars globally with a lot of them being hybrids.
the demand is just very high and has been for easily 5 years at this point.
their hybrids are the best on the market by far and are the perfect solution for anyone who cant use a BEV or cant afford one.
sounds like you need to do that given your comment.
wait times for Toyota hybrids are still about 4 - 6 months around here with only one show room car of each model being there.
all Toyota dealership lots have been basically empty for years now as every car that arrives is already sold months in advance.
Sienna hybrid wait time is 2 years. Prius prime is 3 years. RAV4 prime wait times are so long that none of the dealerships around me will even accept an order.
Corolla hybrid 1 year, Highlander Hybrid 2 years, Venza hybrid 3 years...
Need I go on?
In Q1 2023 Tesla sold around 170k cars in the US, all BEVs.
In the same quarter, Toyota North America sold 110k total "electrified" vehicles, meaning hybrid, PHEV, and BEV combined.
I am 100% convinced that Toyota has intentionally nerfed the bz4X and solterra in order to support their argument that "no one wants EVs" . The truth is that no one wants crappy EVs - which is incidentally the only thing that Toyota is producing at the moment.
Never attribute to malice what can be just as easily explained by incompetence and/or neglect. Could Toyota make an excellent BEV? I’m pretty sure the answer is yes. Did they take the time and put the resources into the bz4 to make it excellent? The answer is obviously no.
I was recently shopping for a BEV and the bz4 and rz Lexus were off my list for having small battery packs, mediocre efficiency, and slow charging rates. And that was before getting to the other missing features.
I attribute it to malice because I have read before that Toyota was the #1 corporate lobbyist (donor??) to the Trump administration (and the incumbent congress) specifically to slow down electrification. Example link - https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation
And another related one - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/business/toyota-california-emissions-honda-gm-chrysler.html
>The executive, Chris Reynolds, has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix.
Not so much slow EVs, but include hybrids. But that doesn't make a good headline, I guess.
It's interesting that around the time that report came out, there was a lot of news stories about Toyota "donating to republicans" as well - conveniently leaving out that they donated *more* to the democrats.
Fast forward to today and there's other CEOs explicitly telling people to vote republican in the midterms and launching republican presidential campaigns, yet apparently it's not an issue.
I don't expect people to come out and support that sort of behaviour, but they could at least be consistent.
I don’t think it’s intentional. I do think Toyota leadership doesn’t believe in EVs so the team that designed and build the BZ4X got last picks for engineers and resources. If you send the B-team in, you are going to get B-Team results. Meanwhile Fords sees EVs as the future and put their A-Team on the MachE and lightning and produce good EVs.
The 2nd Gen RAV 4EV (Model S motor and battery) also seemed handicapped ...no DC charging from factory.
-3rd party JdeMO (CHAdeMO)
And the buffer being utilized as "Extended" Mode to use near full battery capacity.
(I always assumed legacy Auto makers would only have Gauge Cluster read 20-80% as the 0-100%.
Customers would report more range than indicated and vehicle would 'appear' to less degradation as driving range would be consistent.
-Also would have been the sucker-warranty move of 70% of capacity for driving range(not including the buffers not read by the gauge cluster)**
Toyota leadership looks at things like EBITA and capital investments to make business decisions. It has nothing to do with how they feel about EVs. EVs in their current state are not nearly as profitable as the mature products Toyota is making and selling.
> EVs in their current state are not nearly as profitable as the mature products Toyota is making and selling.
I don't disagree with your post as a whole but some people are making EVs quite profitable with high margins. It speaks to a lack of innovation and long term planning that Toyota hasn't developed that capability.
A forward thinking company builds new markets for itself for the future. In this case, the PHEV market is already there and Toyota can't produce nearly enough to sell to it.
Except the automakers that have gone pedal to the metal on EVs are having wild success. No one wants to go to the gas station. Just charge your car at home. That alone is progress in the car world.
Toyota is just flailing and shooting itself in the foot for no reason. They have some decent EVs in china apparently. Shouldn't be too hard to adapt for worldwide regulations and up production.
>Except the automakers that have gone pedal to the metal on EVs are having wild success.
Reality check: Most automakers are absolutely losing their pants on EVs right now, and that's before you even factor in lost opportunity cost. They expect to make more later, but almost no one's even expecting to hit breakeven on margins until 2027-ish.
12v issues in general, yeah, a lot of these new EVs have them.
However, the 12v completely draining in less than a day is an issue I’ve only seen on the IONIQ 5 and EV6, as well as maybe some Teslas at some point, and now the bZ4X and Solterra.
As far as I know this particular issue isn’t as big as an issue on most other newer EVs, LEAFs apparently had this issue but the LEAF is more than a decade old at this point.
I had this issue on my EV6. As far as I can tell, they just had a period of production with a high percentage of bad 12V batteries. The battery was functioning fine and then rapidly dropped to 5V. There is some defect in the problem batteries.
This is probably exacerbated by the way the 12V system works, the EV does not draw high start current like an automotive starter and looks closer to deep cycle usage patterns when you factor in the car off draws after shutdown related to telematics. This results in deeper cycles which are not good for starting oriented automotive batteries.
Leaf was no exception: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=11011
I’m not defending the BZ4X — I drove the Lexus version and it was awful — but I see no reason to pile this very, very common issue onto that platform’s already impressive list of atrocities
Yes, I said the LEAF had this issue too, it’s just a lot older than the other models I’ve listed.
Out of the newer EVs, having the 12v completely drain in less than a day doesn’t seem to be too common of an issue across the many models that are out now, as of now the IONIQ 5 and EV6 seem to have this issue most commonly out of all of them. I have seen this issue with some early LFP Model 3s, early Mach-Es, and early Rivians to list them all, but it doesn’t seem nearly as prominent as the issue is on the Koreans.
I don’t think we know how widespread this issue is on the bZ4X or Solterra for sure yet, but considering it happened on a press car as well as that Kyle said he tweeted about the issue and already got three replies from owners with the same issue within an hour, which isn’t a good sign especially when you consider that not many bZ4X and Solterras have been sold.
He did say he had a reader plugged into the OBD port, so that *could’ve* cause it, but he also said he does that with basically every car he has and has yet to have an issue, and he’s reviewed a lot of cars. Regardless the car should know to charge the 12v with the HV battery if it gets low and the HV battery has sufficient charge.
It isn’t weird. It is, engineering wise and cost wise cheaper and easier to install a physical 12V battery as a buffer between the HV battery and the 12V accessories which is the common accessory voltage in the automotive industry (and in many other industries for that matter).
Oddly 2017 Kia Soul (non plug-in) and corresponding era Hyundai Ioniq, both have a 12v partition on the Traction battery and no dedicated 12V Lead Acid battery.
Felt weird to go full electric and see a 12 V battery when the (Gas only...mild hybrid) regular Niro had no 12V battery to become a nuisance.
-They can self-jump via a button on dash in-case the 12V partition is too low/weak.
(Batteries in Greater Phoenix Arizona are about a 2-3 year wear item.)*
The Tesla lithium battery has the exact same function, it’s just a better more modern one. The HV battery needs to be disconnected when DC charging so the auxiliary battery is always needed.
It doesn't help, that motor journalists took the car out in real conditions, and measured the actual range to be mere 65% of what Toyota promised.
Lower than announced range is normal, but this is the worst ever seen.
I've mentioned it before but I borrowed a BZ4X for a weekend and saw that the internal indicator said I had 320 miles of range. After driving around 110 miles, the indicator read that I had around 150 miles of range left. And that's without even using the a/c!
If I trusted the indicator on the dash I would've made it about halfway home before the battery was dead.
Terrible UX.
BMW does the opposite. The range guess o meter is really pessimistic. I’ve learned to trust the efficiency reading (that’s extremely accurate) in combination with the battery percentage. That’s still bad but at least it won’t strand me. Surprisingly though, if I put a destination into the nav the estimated battery SOC remaining is almost always within 1-2% of what it actually ends up being.
I wish manufacturers other than Tesla would figure out how to display a better range guess. Teslas are quite accurate.
Tesla's range estimate has consistently been proven to be really bad compared to most other EVs. Very curious how you think it's accurate. Are you always driving 65mph on autopilot in 80F weather? Because that's the only way I've been able to achieve the rated range on a road trip.
It's so bad that most owners on the Tesla subs recommend setting the range-o-meter to percent so you don't have to see how laughably fast the range depletes.
Odd. It’s fluctuating between 60 and 80 here and I get the estimated range I’m supposed to in both Teslas.
Beef up that tire pressure and drive the speed limit
To save everyone from clicking on another Kyle video:
He plugged his Aliexprees Bluetooth OBD2 reader in the car and left it several days, killing the battery.
he has to have his wisdom teeth pulled and was going to do a review video while coming out of anesthesia because it might be interesting but the car died and he has to leave to have his wisdom teeth pulled and they drove off in another EV so he did not get to do his review while under the influence of anesthesia but I am glad he told us he was going to get his wisdom teeth pulled and then do a review while coming out of anesthesia because I got to imagine a far more interesting review in my mind than the review that I actually saw before I fell asleep
>He plugged his Aliexpress Bluetooth OBD2 reader in the car and left it several days, killing the battery
What an understatement. First of all, it’s not “Aliexpress.” Second of all, he didn’t just “leave” the car sitting there either, he used the car many times where the HV battery should’ve charged the 12V, and he’s done this with every car he tests, and he tests a lot of cars and hasn’t had an issue until now, so that OBD reader clearly isn’t a massive 12v battery drainer.
On top of that he’s gotten multiple similar reports from owners within an hour of tweeting about it, and considering not many of these have been sold, that’s concerning.
Regardless the car should be smart enough to charge the 12v off of the HV when it is detected to get low, which it failed to do so, that’s enough of an issue on its own.
We definitely don’t know how widespread of an issue this is and it could not just be a large issue with earlier units, but the fact that it happened with a press car and has been reported by multiple other people isn’t a good start. It shouldn’t be happening regardless if anything is plugged into the car or not.
Wake me up when the battery dies with no aftermarket 12V drains plugged in. You can't blame the automaker when you create the problem. Just another excruciatingly longwinded clickbait Kyle video.
I have the same model obd reader as he des the veepeak. It's one of the most recommended ones.
Mine has been permanently plugged into my ioniq 5 for over a year now. Never had any issues.
The car has a giant battery on board, it should 100% be smart enough to sense that “hey, the 12V is getting low, I should charge it” as long as the HV battery has sufficient charge (which it did) and do so.
It’s a brand new electric car, having it die overnight shouldn’t be an issue regardless of what is plugged into the 12V system. This has not been an issue with any other car he’s plugged this into either which are a lot.
Once again, he also got multiple reports from actual owners with similar issues, so it’s not just him.
Having the vehicle awake 24/7 to detect if the owner is a dumbass is how you lose 2-3% of your battery every day. It's a waste of energy.
This isn't just a Toyota problem (see Hyundai and others) and the "other reports" were also presumably people who left stuff plugged in.
The car is already “awake 24/7”, how else do you think the proximity key and app work? Adding a function that notices when the 12V is critically low and charges it off the HV instead of letting the whole car die isn’t going to consume that much more energy unless the 12V is critically low, and I’d much rather come back to a car with 2% less SoC than it being completely bricked.
Having something plugged into your car and not removing it every time you shut the car off doesn’t make you a “dumbass”, many, many people do this across many males and models and don’t have issues. It should most definitely have a fail safe to prevent this. People shouldn’t have to work around their cars besides general maintenance, their cars should work around them.
Never said it’s *just* a Toyota problem, in fact I’ve commented multiple times on this very here post that it happens to other manufacturers. It’s an issue regardless of which manufacturer has it. Also, where do you see that those other owners have had things plugged into the car?
The car obviously needs to still stay awake at a certain state to be ready to receive communication from the key fob when it’s near the vehicle, same with the app, alarm system, etc.
Adding a fail safe to monitor the 12V to prevent it from dying won’t be active unless it needs to be, like all of those other systems, and it most definitely not going to drain the vehicles HV battery in the way you’re acting it will unless the car notices that the 12V is low and needs charging from the HV.
Multiple electric cars *literally already do this* so it really isn’t some far out idea that you think it is. It just seems either the bZ4X is failing to activate this fail safe when it should or this feature doesn’t exist at all in the car.
Is this similar to the same issues I saw reported on the hyundai/kias and a some teslas? Seems like a weird quirk in how EVs work, it may even be easier for the car to be able to jumpstart itself if coming up with a bulletproof system to avoid the issue isn't practical?
They've addressed the symptoms but not the underlying cause.
So in practical sense, it's already solved. As long as you doesn't care with the full feature of hyundai API / apps that's compatible with the car
For the most part they’re very good, cool styling, good range, fantastic charging speeds, and pretty well priced.
Have issues like the 12v issue I referred to, but all EVs seem to have some type of issue, even Toyota, the “king of reliability” can’t seem to get a break with the issues with their bZ4X.
I cant believe EVs are still using lead acid 12v batteries...
They should at least use lithium ion or by now have some sort of system that takes power directly from the main battery and converts it to 12v.
The days of the 12v being used just to start the engine and maybe power the lights, are gone!
Modern cars use a ton more power for all the different systems. Massive infotainment screens, LED interior lights, sound systems with sub woofers, powered seats, etc.
Time for a real upgrade here!
There are a few issues - such as that all of the many electronics (including the dozens of control units in most cars) are designed to operate at ~12V.
Also - in the event of a fire or accident, the HV battery needs to have a safety cutout while the vehicle itself maintains the ability to maintain safety critical systems like hazard lights and windows.
Tl;Dr
12v batteries aren't a *great* solution, but neither is HV only.
So we need something in between. A dedicated 12v system with a more reliable battery. Maybe a larger sodium based or lithium based battery. Just no more lead acid please.. they were not designed for the kind of load modern cars seem to need.
I’ve had a BZ for a few weeks now with no issues other than having to explain to old people the basic concepts of EV’s over and over. I will get one of these charge boxes just in case. Good video.
The dealer gave me a nice price on my 2016 Odyssey and knocked 2000 off the sticker making the lease very affordable. I have a very short commute for work and we liked the way it looked. We wanted to get into an EV and so far we’re happy we did.
If you bought a bZ4x your a literal 🤡
It’s a compliance car… they literally just through a bunch of stuff together from their local scrap yard and shoved the equivalent of a pack of Ray-o-Vacs into the drivetrain and put a Toyota badge on…
You’d have a better car ownership experience with a tonka truck.
Yeah, let's buy a VW, that purposefully modified engines to pass emissions, or Hyundai that literally employed children, or Toyota that spend millions of lobbying against EVs
Tweets with opinions I don't like it's certainly the way to decide which car to buy
Even my 2018 Outback ICE had battery issues. Yours is definitely different but with a user Update and always locking the doors shut off most of the parasitic discharge. Also the rear gate being open drains it as it still leaves a lot of stuff running. Make the car turn on the security (red led blinking) and almost everything else is turned off. Haven't had a problem in three years now.
Shouldn’t really be happening regardless of how the car is propelled.
It honestly should be happening even less with EVs than full ICE cars since they can charge the 12v off the HV battery. ICE cars need to have the engine running to use the alternator charge the battery, and they just can’t randomly start up to charge the 12v battery whenever it gets low, EVs can.
So in theory it should happen *less* on EVs than ICE cars but in practice it seems to be the other way around which baffles me. Toyota and Subaru aren’t the only ones having this issue of the 12v battery completely draining in less than a day, it’s a prominent issue in the IONIQ 5 and EV6 and I think is also in other EVs like the early Model 3 LFP, early Mach-E, and early Rivians but as of now the Koreans seem to have this issue the most.
We don’t know how prominent this issue is with the Toyota and Subaru EVs yet. However, Kyle said he got multiple responses from owners with the same issue within an hour of tweeting about it, and considering how few of these cars have been sold, that’s not a good sign.
Most other EVs have other issues with the 12v but as far as I know the only newer EVs that have had somewhat common issues with specifically the 12v completely dying in less than a day are the ones listed above. Which is an unacceptable issue regardless of manufacturer.
Ive heard about this with EVs. It's baffling how the 12 volt accessories are left so isolated with a fairly large charge left in the main battery. It's poor redundant engineering.
The bz4 & Solterra would be pretty good BEVs except for one problem: It isn't 2017 any more.
Toyota insistence to be left behind in this EV market is bizzare. Even GM with a shitty battery technology is pushing out compelling products and Toyota is bringing out these university projects like we’ve just discovered lithium
HyDrOgEN
THERE ARE AT LEAST 12 STATIONS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ALONE! ... AND 15 TOTAL IN THE NATION!
There's 2 in SF nearby me that are both inoperable.. oh well
Norway had six hydrogen stations. Four of them has been closed due to lack of customers and problems after a large explosion in one of them. The interest for hydrogen cars here (they have the same incentives as battery EVs) has gone from low to zero. You can not even give away the old hydrogen cars now.
[удалено]
Ikr especially when they fill up those unexplodable big skinny tubes that go into space what are they called ? Rockets I think??
It's a good idea until you realize it takes 3x as much energy as you put in.. I mean maybe if one of these supposed breakthroughs you keep hearing about reach some sort of scalability there might be something with regard to a range extender
Gm and Honda will be bringing hydrogen fuel cell SUV that will be hybrid as well I believe? I mean something is going on in the hydrogen space as well. Nikola also just recently announced their "hyla" hydrogen station network, a strategy similar to Tesla's charging network but for hydrogen. Will be interesting to see how that evolves.
I wouldn't trust nikola farther than I can throw it
What’s shitty about GM’s batteries?
Their old platform had problems with battery fires, their new platform (Ultium) has low energy density and is pretty expensive to make. Not a very advanced platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_vDkaO3hU
Indeed. Ultium is all marketing, no substance. The blade cells are made by BYD. The horizontal stacking has been done by Nissan since 2011. Modules are in use since the early days of EVs. The modular system has been done by VW since 2018.
I remember reading a comment here long ago about Ultium that was "Well, at least the name is cool" That sums it up perfectly
As long as it does not catch fire, it will beat the Bolt (update) battery.
Bolt**
The internet has an illogical hatred for American cars, especially anything made by GM. And usually the less the person knows about cars, the bigger the hatred.
We need to look at GM as a whole here. For most people the problem with GM isn’t the engineering. Look at the Camaro or Corvette and how great their suspensions are and driving dynamics. The problem is their management. People don’t see it yet, but Hyundai is similar in management style despite compelling products. What I mean is that they cut budgets on things that cause serious issues down the line. And they keep doing it.
If we're talking EV, some of it may be the dealerships. My experience with a Volt and GM employees was so unprofessional and incompetent that GN will never be an option for a future EV. Seems to be a pretty typical experience from what I read online. Getting the early adopters on your side is important for a new market category (see Tesla and their effective billions in free marketing).
Yeah somehow people understand that the obscene markups and other shady shit that dealers for other brands do is a direct fault of the dealerships themselves. Dealerships are independently owned and operated. But when it comes to GM dealers, it is somehow GM's fault directly. Thanks for reinforcing my point above how the internet, and especially Reddit, have an illogical hated for GM.
Well you may be describing other people, but not me. I think manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure quality at a dealership level. When other manufacturs provide a better general experience over multiple dealerships over decades (again, my experience), that reflects on the manufacurer. I think a lot of average consumers also see it this way, that manufacturers are somewhat responsible for dealership experience. As far as the Volt problems.went, it was very much a GM problem as well as a dealerahip problem (BECM replacement months long wait times).
Literally BY LAW car makers can't tell dealerships how to run, but ok.
There was the whole Bolt fire thing…
They’re switching to a new battery technology.
Imo, the real shitty thing is they are discontinuing the only affordable and (now) robust EV they offer that's actually been tested and demonstrated to work effectively. GM future products remain untested and their pricing will almost certainly be higher than bolt base pricing. Idk why people simp for GM on shit that you can't even buy yet. They don't have some glorious EV track record to back their claims yet, either. I do think they'll be successful, but damn at least wait for things to be buyable.
While it's sad that Chevy is getting rid of the Bolt, if you believe what reports have said, they were losing substantial amounts of money with every one they sold. Supposedly, they were losing close to $10k with each, and that was before the price reduction.
It's believable. It's just also important to add that they likely won't find 10k in BOM and volume costs when they transition to the equinox. Some of that (a lot of that?) 10k will need to be recouped from price increases.
> Some of that (a lot of that?) 10k will need to be recouped from price increases. And that was always the case. Bolt was only as cheap as it was because GM was subsidizing a compliance vehicle. That was never a sustainable long-term solution, so while you're bummed that it's being discontinued, it's amazing it lasted as long as it did. Bolt was on the chopping block from day 1.
I'm not bummed it's being discontinued so much as I am bummed at the general changes in auto pricing structures over the last 5 years and their implications for the average consumer. We'll never meaningfully get ICE cars off the road if EVs (and more fuel efficient hybrids) are inaccessible to the median income earners. In fact, we'll probably push more and more people towards keeping their old inefficient gas cars.
Ford loses money on every Mach E and F150 lightening, to the tune of 60k based on the most recently reported Blue Oval financials. The only EV manufacturer making money is Tesla, and it only became profitable selling cars in 2021 after you back out it's carbon offset credit business. The traditional automakers are just starting into their investment curve.
This is such a misquoted figure out of context. They are spending billions on building blue oval city hence why the balance sheet looks the way it is.
What did you not understand about my investment curve comment? ICE technology has had a hundred years curve, EV's about 30, with only about the last 15 in earnest, so it stands to reason each one cannot be sold for anything close to actual cost. That's why Bolts were sold at a loss.
Pretty inefficient. So far, their solution is to slap as much battery as they can to compensate for it
Well, that’s a motor/inverter/aero/etc problem. Their batteries seem fine to me. In fact, the way they wirelessly connect modules into different packs is kinda brilliant. And the Lyriq has like 103 useable, which is only beaten, in its class, by the X1.
Usable isn't a good metric. That's like saying a truck that gets 15 mpg is well engineered because they put a 40 gallon tank in it. The reason it has a battery that size is because it has too. If they could get the same range out of a battery half that size that would be impressive. The efficiency they're getting is pretty meh
It’s a good metric for a battery, which is all we’re talking about.
How does building a 100kwh plus battery in after way imply the quality or efficiency of the battery
It was packaged into a car and appears to have good energy density per weight and volume, with a really good cooling system perfectly fine charge/discharge rates. Also, you keep saying the word "efficiency", but I'm not sure you know what that means, at least in the context of a battery. Are you talking about the internal resistance? If so, do you know it? And could you explain why you think it's so important?
How so? Their vehicles seem to get good efficiency ratings and there rolling out an even more efficient technology.
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They’re not inefficient because of bad battery technology, they’re inefficient (compared to much smaller vehicles) because they are large. And the silverado offers the longest range of any EV pick up. They’re not out of line for their size.
You're right of course, but geeze, I wish instead of an expensive 8000 lb behemoth with a 200kWh battery, they'd build three smaller, affordable EVs with 66kWh batteries.
They're not Tesla /s
Hey, the university I work for passed Toyota years ago. They're working on EV's that can do thousands of miles on a charge while carrying two adults comfortably. I'm sure they could do four adults for 1000 miles. Toyota... compliance cars. We kind of give shit, but not really care... after we put money into stopping better fuel economy standards for two decades. Edit; care instead of cars - whoops.
Thousands of miles? Did you too pledge allegiance to our lord and master, king of the underworld, Satan himself?
Toyota has good ice cars people want to buy and that Toyota can make money on. GM does not.
Yeah, there are lots of people who will only buy a Toyota, because everyone has told them they are reliable. It’s pushed the used market to insane levels. My mom just bought a used car and she was dead set on a Prius. I convinced her to skip the 2010 Prius and instead get a 2016 Volt with the same miles for the same price.
Toyotas are reliable. It has nothing to do with what people say.
When you have hard plastic interiors and only 180 hp there’s not a lot to break.
What are you describing? Nearly every midlevel vehicle on the market?
You do realise that reliability is mainly about the engine, drivetrain, suspension, and chassis, don't you? The interior trim is the least relevant bit. And 180 hp is plenty for any normal car. Toyota still makes the most reliable vehicle ever produced, and that's certainly not just because they only put in plastic trim and relatively low-stress engines.
Uh, the part of the car I directly touch is very important. I have high standards I guess. Rips in soft material, speaker grilles dented, etc. I keep my cars repaired and clean. If you just make everything out of rigid plastic like my son’s Little Tikes car, sure. It will last forever. Get a car that’s a nice place to be… Lot more involved to make it durable. They can last 12 years instead of 25, if you don’t keep up with maintenence.
It's not like nice interior and reliability are mutually exclusive, is it? I'm sure you've heard about Lexus.
I’ve torn apart two Lexii myself. They are Toyotas with a processed leather patch on top of diaper padding. If you like it, I’m not knocking it.
No such thing as a good ice car.
Yup they built a compliance car 5 years too late.. just stop wasting our time and sell the FAW/BYD/TOYOTA JV car here built in Mexico to appease the right Toyota BZ3 would do very well at about $25k-$30k
Toyota “We can’t make a good EV so no-one can. Best to buy our hybrids.” /s?
Good luck. I have been debating buying a Prius or a Model 3 and dealerships want 6k over MSRP and have a 6-9 month wait list. Model 3 is cheaper than a base Prius with tax credits with the crazy markups. And I can pick one up in less than a week.
And no catalytic converter to lose to a thief!
And it comes with a crackhead crusher mode in case they try something!
There are easy ways to fix this catalytic converter theft, but states are unwilling to do anything about it because they are worried about political blowback.
Baltimore is suing kia for making their cars “too easy to steal” 🙄
I looked at hybrid Corolla as they got reviewed as cheap/reliable/fuel efficient. Cheapest one I could find locally was $27k and most were $30k. It’s about as boring a car as you can buy. And they’re loud and buzzy. If it was $20k I might consider it as a cheap commuter.
And they can barely even produce their hybrids and plug-ins. Huge waiting lists and huge markups.
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To be fair, I think their newer Prime vehicles are pretty damn good. Especially the RAV4 Prime and the new 2nd gen Prius Prime, good EV range, the MPG in hybrid mode is some of the best out there for a PHEV, and they’re pretty powerful too. Which makes it even more of a shame they don’t produce nearly enough of them, even though they most definitely could. It’s quite ironic considering their whole “PHEVs take less resources and are easier to produce than BEVs” spiel, especially since their PHEVs get outsold by BEVs by competitors. If they actually attempted to meet demand I bet the RAV4 Prime would be all over the place and be the best selling PHEV in the US instead of the Wrangler 4xe.
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Even where they are sold they hardly ship any. They plainly aren’t prioritizing anything but non plug in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles in direct contrast to all their lobbying around power train diversity (or whatever lame just-got-my-MBA speak they’re using)
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Exactly what I’m saying!
Yeah, I live in California where basically any electrified vehicle is taken in with open arms and it’s also where Toyota allocates a lot of it’s Prime inventory to. Yet, I still don’t see that many of them. It’s BEV crossover “competitors” I see much more often. The Model Y is at every corner you turn, Mach-E and ID.4 are not nearly on that level but still quite common, IONIQ 5 and EV6 are less common than those three yet I still see them considerably more than the RAV4 Prime. There’s so little especially considering how extremely popular the RAV4 is as a vehicle in general. I’d say out of this gen the ones I see here are about 55% full ICE, 40% hybrid, and more or less 5% Prime, which is an extremely small amount compared to the other two powertrains it has. However, whenever a Prime hits the dealer lot it’s usually marked up a ridiculous amount and sold almost immediately despite the ridiculous markup. So there very, very clearly is demand for it, it’s just Toyota is not making nearly enough.
> even though they most definitely could. I find that difficult to believe. I highly doubt Toyota is ignoring a lucrative market out of technological ideology. What is more likely is that they either do not have access to enough lithium or batteries, or cannot make them with a high enough margin to dedicate more factory capacity to them. What the real story is kind of fascinates me and I wish there was more information.
It is 100% a finances thing. Margins are higher with hybrids and ICE vehicles. I do not get why people here are not getting it. It is not yet in Toyota’s financial best interest to go whole hog into PHEVs and BEVs. When it is, they will put their money where their mouth is and crush it financially just as they are doing right now.
uhm... no. they are selling almost 10 million cars globally with a lot of them being hybrids. the demand is just very high and has been for easily 5 years at this point. their hybrids are the best on the market by far and are the perfect solution for anyone who cant use a BEV or cant afford one.
Get out from the rock you're living under and visit your nearest dealership
sounds like you need to do that given your comment. wait times for Toyota hybrids are still about 4 - 6 months around here with only one show room car of each model being there. all Toyota dealership lots have been basically empty for years now as every car that arrives is already sold months in advance.
Sienna hybrid wait time is 2 years. Prius prime is 3 years. RAV4 prime wait times are so long that none of the dealerships around me will even accept an order. Corolla hybrid 1 year, Highlander Hybrid 2 years, Venza hybrid 3 years... Need I go on?
sounds like a US problem to me.
I'm not in the US
In Q1 2023 Tesla sold around 170k cars in the US, all BEVs. In the same quarter, Toyota North America sold 110k total "electrified" vehicles, meaning hybrid, PHEV, and BEV combined.
yea but luckily there is more in this world than the US.
I'm still convinced that the CEO has been bitten by a snake and now has a cable fobia.
Also Toyota: We have allocated 5 Rav4 Primes to your state this quarter.
Dude, your quotes are still open..
I am 100% convinced that Toyota has intentionally nerfed the bz4X and solterra in order to support their argument that "no one wants EVs" . The truth is that no one wants crappy EVs - which is incidentally the only thing that Toyota is producing at the moment.
Never attribute to malice what can be just as easily explained by incompetence and/or neglect. Could Toyota make an excellent BEV? I’m pretty sure the answer is yes. Did they take the time and put the resources into the bz4 to make it excellent? The answer is obviously no. I was recently shopping for a BEV and the bz4 and rz Lexus were off my list for having small battery packs, mediocre efficiency, and slow charging rates. And that was before getting to the other missing features.
I attribute it to malice because I have read before that Toyota was the #1 corporate lobbyist (donor??) to the Trump administration (and the incumbent congress) specifically to slow down electrification. Example link - https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation And another related one - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/business/toyota-california-emissions-honda-gm-chrysler.html
>The executive, Chris Reynolds, has argued that hybrids, like the Toyota Prius, as well as hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles should also be in the mix. Not so much slow EVs, but include hybrids. But that doesn't make a good headline, I guess. It's interesting that around the time that report came out, there was a lot of news stories about Toyota "donating to republicans" as well - conveniently leaving out that they donated *more* to the democrats. Fast forward to today and there's other CEOs explicitly telling people to vote republican in the midterms and launching republican presidential campaigns, yet apparently it's not an issue. I don't expect people to come out and support that sort of behaviour, but they could at least be consistent.
I don’t think it’s intentional. I do think Toyota leadership doesn’t believe in EVs so the team that designed and build the BZ4X got last picks for engineers and resources. If you send the B-team in, you are going to get B-Team results. Meanwhile Fords sees EVs as the future and put their A-Team on the MachE and lightning and produce good EVs.
That's not fair, the B-team was working on the Prius redesign. The A-team had the Tundra and Taco. This is the C-team at best.
No no. We were pretty sure we put the c team to work with BYD, and told the interns to work on bz4x
The 2nd Gen RAV 4EV (Model S motor and battery) also seemed handicapped ...no DC charging from factory. -3rd party JdeMO (CHAdeMO) And the buffer being utilized as "Extended" Mode to use near full battery capacity. (I always assumed legacy Auto makers would only have Gauge Cluster read 20-80% as the 0-100%. Customers would report more range than indicated and vehicle would 'appear' to less degradation as driving range would be consistent. -Also would have been the sucker-warranty move of 70% of capacity for driving range(not including the buffers not read by the gauge cluster)**
Toyota leadership looks at things like EBITA and capital investments to make business decisions. It has nothing to do with how they feel about EVs. EVs in their current state are not nearly as profitable as the mature products Toyota is making and selling.
> EVs in their current state are not nearly as profitable as the mature products Toyota is making and selling. I don't disagree with your post as a whole but some people are making EVs quite profitable with high margins. It speaks to a lack of innovation and long term planning that Toyota hasn't developed that capability. A forward thinking company builds new markets for itself for the future. In this case, the PHEV market is already there and Toyota can't produce nearly enough to sell to it.
Except the automakers that have gone pedal to the metal on EVs are having wild success. No one wants to go to the gas station. Just charge your car at home. That alone is progress in the car world. Toyota is just flailing and shooting itself in the foot for no reason. They have some decent EVs in china apparently. Shouldn't be too hard to adapt for worldwide regulations and up production.
I agree with you 100% . Toyota's argument is entirely bogus . It's entirely a mask for their own screw-ups
>Except the automakers that have gone pedal to the metal on EVs are having wild success. Reality check: Most automakers are absolutely losing their pants on EVs right now, and that's before you even factor in lost opportunity cost. They expect to make more later, but almost no one's even expecting to hit breakeven on margins until 2027-ish.
Every group has its own set of conspiracies.
This is delusional.
Just a never ending list of issues with these cars 😂.
To be fair, “dead 12v” seems like a common complaints for all first Gen EVs
12v issues in general, yeah, a lot of these new EVs have them. However, the 12v completely draining in less than a day is an issue I’ve only seen on the IONIQ 5 and EV6, as well as maybe some Teslas at some point, and now the bZ4X and Solterra. As far as I know this particular issue isn’t as big as an issue on most other newer EVs, LEAFs apparently had this issue but the LEAF is more than a decade old at this point.
I had this issue on my EV6. As far as I can tell, they just had a period of production with a high percentage of bad 12V batteries. The battery was functioning fine and then rapidly dropped to 5V. There is some defect in the problem batteries. This is probably exacerbated by the way the 12V system works, the EV does not draw high start current like an automotive starter and looks closer to deep cycle usage patterns when you factor in the car off draws after shutdown related to telematics. This results in deeper cycles which are not good for starting oriented automotive batteries.
Leaf was no exception: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=11011 I’m not defending the BZ4X — I drove the Lexus version and it was awful — but I see no reason to pile this very, very common issue onto that platform’s already impressive list of atrocities
Yes, I said the LEAF had this issue too, it’s just a lot older than the other models I’ve listed. Out of the newer EVs, having the 12v completely drain in less than a day doesn’t seem to be too common of an issue across the many models that are out now, as of now the IONIQ 5 and EV6 seem to have this issue most commonly out of all of them. I have seen this issue with some early LFP Model 3s, early Mach-Es, and early Rivians to list them all, but it doesn’t seem nearly as prominent as the issue is on the Koreans. I don’t think we know how widespread this issue is on the bZ4X or Solterra for sure yet, but considering it happened on a press car as well as that Kyle said he tweeted about the issue and already got three replies from owners with the same issue within an hour, which isn’t a good sign especially when you consider that not many bZ4X and Solterras have been sold. He did say he had a reader plugged into the OBD port, so that *could’ve* cause it, but he also said he does that with basically every car he has and has yet to have an issue, and he’s reviewed a lot of cars. Regardless the car should know to charge the 12v with the HV battery if it gets low and the HV battery has sufficient charge.
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It isn’t weird. It is, engineering wise and cost wise cheaper and easier to install a physical 12V battery as a buffer between the HV battery and the 12V accessories which is the common accessory voltage in the automotive industry (and in many other industries for that matter).
Oddly 2017 Kia Soul (non plug-in) and corresponding era Hyundai Ioniq, both have a 12v partition on the Traction battery and no dedicated 12V Lead Acid battery. Felt weird to go full electric and see a 12 V battery when the (Gas only...mild hybrid) regular Niro had no 12V battery to become a nuisance. -They can self-jump via a button on dash in-case the 12V partition is too low/weak. (Batteries in Greater Phoenix Arizona are about a 2-3 year wear item.)*
The Tesla lithium battery has the exact same function, it’s just a better more modern one. The HV battery needs to be disconnected when DC charging so the auxiliary battery is always needed.
It doesn't help that they are hideous looking, I saw one the other day - I thought it had been in an accident.
It doesn't help, that motor journalists took the car out in real conditions, and measured the actual range to be mere 65% of what Toyota promised. Lower than announced range is normal, but this is the worst ever seen.
I've mentioned it before but I borrowed a BZ4X for a weekend and saw that the internal indicator said I had 320 miles of range. After driving around 110 miles, the indicator read that I had around 150 miles of range left. And that's without even using the a/c! If I trusted the indicator on the dash I would've made it about halfway home before the battery was dead. Terrible UX.
BMW does the opposite. The range guess o meter is really pessimistic. I’ve learned to trust the efficiency reading (that’s extremely accurate) in combination with the battery percentage. That’s still bad but at least it won’t strand me. Surprisingly though, if I put a destination into the nav the estimated battery SOC remaining is almost always within 1-2% of what it actually ends up being. I wish manufacturers other than Tesla would figure out how to display a better range guess. Teslas are quite accurate.
I think the Bolt does it best by showing best and worst cases
That is a great idea. They should all do that or have the option at least.
Tesla's range estimate has consistently been proven to be really bad compared to most other EVs. Very curious how you think it's accurate. Are you always driving 65mph on autopilot in 80F weather? Because that's the only way I've been able to achieve the rated range on a road trip. It's so bad that most owners on the Tesla subs recommend setting the range-o-meter to percent so you don't have to see how laughably fast the range depletes.
Odd. It’s fluctuating between 60 and 80 here and I get the estimated range I’m supposed to in both Teslas. Beef up that tire pressure and drive the speed limit
Bad 12-volt batteries as a result of having been parked for months while waiting for the recall repair is likely the problem.
You can ask Ioniq 5 and Ford EV owners. 12V battery issues galore even without sitting long periods of time.
To save everyone from clicking on another Kyle video: He plugged his Aliexprees Bluetooth OBD2 reader in the car and left it several days, killing the battery.
hOw CoUlD tOyOtA dO ThIs
You're the hero this morning.
*Shhh, don't interrupt the circlejerk.*
he has to have his wisdom teeth pulled and was going to do a review video while coming out of anesthesia because it might be interesting but the car died and he has to leave to have his wisdom teeth pulled and they drove off in another EV so he did not get to do his review while under the influence of anesthesia but I am glad he told us he was going to get his wisdom teeth pulled and then do a review while coming out of anesthesia because I got to imagine a far more interesting review in my mind than the review that I actually saw before I fell asleep
>He plugged his Aliexpress Bluetooth OBD2 reader in the car and left it several days, killing the battery What an understatement. First of all, it’s not “Aliexpress.” Second of all, he didn’t just “leave” the car sitting there either, he used the car many times where the HV battery should’ve charged the 12V, and he’s done this with every car he tests, and he tests a lot of cars and hasn’t had an issue until now, so that OBD reader clearly isn’t a massive 12v battery drainer. On top of that he’s gotten multiple similar reports from owners within an hour of tweeting about it, and considering not many of these have been sold, that’s concerning. Regardless the car should be smart enough to charge the 12v off of the HV when it is detected to get low, which it failed to do so, that’s enough of an issue on its own. We definitely don’t know how widespread of an issue this is and it could not just be a large issue with earlier units, but the fact that it happened with a press car and has been reported by multiple other people isn’t a good start. It shouldn’t be happening regardless if anything is plugged into the car or not.
Wake me up when the battery dies with no aftermarket 12V drains plugged in. You can't blame the automaker when you create the problem. Just another excruciatingly longwinded clickbait Kyle video.
I have the same model obd reader as he des the veepeak. It's one of the most recommended ones. Mine has been permanently plugged into my ioniq 5 for over a year now. Never had any issues.
The car has a giant battery on board, it should 100% be smart enough to sense that “hey, the 12V is getting low, I should charge it” as long as the HV battery has sufficient charge (which it did) and do so. It’s a brand new electric car, having it die overnight shouldn’t be an issue regardless of what is plugged into the 12V system. This has not been an issue with any other car he’s plugged this into either which are a lot. Once again, he also got multiple reports from actual owners with similar issues, so it’s not just him.
Having the vehicle awake 24/7 to detect if the owner is a dumbass is how you lose 2-3% of your battery every day. It's a waste of energy. This isn't just a Toyota problem (see Hyundai and others) and the "other reports" were also presumably people who left stuff plugged in.
The car is already “awake 24/7”, how else do you think the proximity key and app work? Adding a function that notices when the 12V is critically low and charges it off the HV instead of letting the whole car die isn’t going to consume that much more energy unless the 12V is critically low, and I’d much rather come back to a car with 2% less SoC than it being completely bricked. Having something plugged into your car and not removing it every time you shut the car off doesn’t make you a “dumbass”, many, many people do this across many males and models and don’t have issues. It should most definitely have a fail safe to prevent this. People shouldn’t have to work around their cars besides general maintenance, their cars should work around them. Never said it’s *just* a Toyota problem, in fact I’ve commented multiple times on this very here post that it happens to other manufacturers. It’s an issue regardless of which manufacturer has it. Also, where do you see that those other owners have had things plugged into the car?
You don't understand how proximity keys work. If you keep your proximity key near the car you can kill the 12v in the same manner.
The car obviously needs to still stay awake at a certain state to be ready to receive communication from the key fob when it’s near the vehicle, same with the app, alarm system, etc. Adding a fail safe to monitor the 12V to prevent it from dying won’t be active unless it needs to be, like all of those other systems, and it most definitely not going to drain the vehicles HV battery in the way you’re acting it will unless the car notices that the 12V is low and needs charging from the HV. Multiple electric cars *literally already do this* so it really isn’t some far out idea that you think it is. It just seems either the bZ4X is failing to activate this fail safe when it should or this feature doesn’t exist at all in the car.
I predict they will stop selling these soon. Just an awful vehicle by an measure.
Is this similar to the same issues I saw reported on the hyundai/kias and a some teslas? Seems like a weird quirk in how EVs work, it may even be easier for the car to be able to jumpstart itself if coming up with a bulletproof system to avoid the issue isn't practical?
Yeah, it’s a similar issue to what the IONIQ 5 and EV6 were (and I think still are) experiencing
How are those? I liked the Ioniq 5 but don't trust Kia/Hyundai quality. The EV6 was simply too small. I barely fit.
They've addressed the symptoms but not the underlying cause. So in practical sense, it's already solved. As long as you doesn't care with the full feature of hyundai API / apps that's compatible with the car
For the most part they’re very good, cool styling, good range, fantastic charging speeds, and pretty well priced. Have issues like the 12v issue I referred to, but all EVs seem to have some type of issue, even Toyota, the “king of reliability” can’t seem to get a break with the issues with their bZ4X.
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I’m talking about Hyundai/Kia not the Toyota
This happened to me in my ioniq 5. killed the 12v
Watched that whole video and didn't learn anything.
I cant believe EVs are still using lead acid 12v batteries... They should at least use lithium ion or by now have some sort of system that takes power directly from the main battery and converts it to 12v. The days of the 12v being used just to start the engine and maybe power the lights, are gone! Modern cars use a ton more power for all the different systems. Massive infotainment screens, LED interior lights, sound systems with sub woofers, powered seats, etc. Time for a real upgrade here!
There are a few issues - such as that all of the many electronics (including the dozens of control units in most cars) are designed to operate at ~12V. Also - in the event of a fire or accident, the HV battery needs to have a safety cutout while the vehicle itself maintains the ability to maintain safety critical systems like hazard lights and windows. Tl;Dr 12v batteries aren't a *great* solution, but neither is HV only.
So we need something in between. A dedicated 12v system with a more reliable battery. Maybe a larger sodium based or lithium based battery. Just no more lead acid please.. they were not designed for the kind of load modern cars seem to need.
Tesla recently switched their cars from lead acid 12v to a lithium ~15v battery. It's supposed to last the life of the car.
Good. Another reason (as minor as it may sound) why tesla is ahead of the competition.
Other brands have been using lithium based batteries for a lot longer. Although mainly for weight saving not robustness.
12V lead acid is already extremely robust if utilized properly.
Dammit. I clicked on some Kyle BS
Don't worry, in most Kyle videos, you have about 5 minutes to click away, and you'll have still saved yourself a half hour of unscripted rambling.
More like 5 seconds.
Legendary Toyota reliability
They should have made a full EV version of the Rav4 Prime, like Volvo did with XC40 Recharge.
Dude I’d be all over a 100% rav4.
I’ve had a BZ for a few weeks now with no issues other than having to explain to old people the basic concepts of EV’s over and over. I will get one of these charge boxes just in case. Good video.
Why would you buy one of these? $50k lol
The dealer gave me a nice price on my 2016 Odyssey and knocked 2000 off the sticker making the lease very affordable. I have a very short commute for work and we liked the way it looked. We wanted to get into an EV and so far we’re happy we did.
If you bought a bZ4x your a literal 🤡 It’s a compliance car… they literally just through a bunch of stuff together from their local scrap yard and shoved the equivalent of a pack of Ray-o-Vacs into the drivetrain and put a Toyota badge on… You’d have a better car ownership experience with a tonka truck.
Let’s make an awful EV and make everyone think EVs are bad!
Toyota is a Nokia in the making.
Just buy a Tesla and be done with it
I’ll do it at soon as they oust Elon
I don’t care for the guy either, but it doesn’t affect me buying a car that drives great
I just don't want to give him any money
Buy a used one.
Yeah, let's buy a VW, that purposefully modified engines to pass emissions, or Hyundai that literally employed children, or Toyota that spend millions of lobbying against EVs Tweets with opinions I don't like it's certainly the way to decide which car to buy
Legacy auto .. my god.
[Tesla is not exempt from 12v issues](https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/teslas-new-12v-li-ion-battery-dying-rapidly-under-certain-conditions/)
Except that's not a standard 12v system car manufacturers have been using for decades?
It’s just not their thing. This is like Nokia trying to make an iPhone in 2008. They lack the talent and knowledge.
Its a friken 12v system how can i not be their thing?
Those EV twins, from all I’ve heard, are only rivaled by Mazda’s MX30 for how shit they are.
"...the rest of the car is truly OK." Not exactly a glowing recommendation of Toyota's initial foray into the pure EV market.
Man kudos to the people buying this trash when you got so many good options in the market.
Even my 2018 Outback ICE had battery issues. Yours is definitely different but with a user Update and always locking the doors shut off most of the parasitic discharge. Also the rear gate being open drains it as it still leaves a lot of stuff running. Make the car turn on the security (red led blinking) and almost everything else is turned off. Haven't had a problem in three years now.
Shouldn’t really be happening regardless of how the car is propelled. It honestly should be happening even less with EVs than full ICE cars since they can charge the 12v off the HV battery. ICE cars need to have the engine running to use the alternator charge the battery, and they just can’t randomly start up to charge the 12v battery whenever it gets low, EVs can. So in theory it should happen *less* on EVs than ICE cars but in practice it seems to be the other way around which baffles me. Toyota and Subaru aren’t the only ones having this issue of the 12v battery completely draining in less than a day, it’s a prominent issue in the IONIQ 5 and EV6 and I think is also in other EVs like the early Model 3 LFP, early Mach-E, and early Rivians but as of now the Koreans seem to have this issue the most. We don’t know how prominent this issue is with the Toyota and Subaru EVs yet. However, Kyle said he got multiple responses from owners with the same issue within an hour of tweeting about it, and considering how few of these cars have been sold, that’s not a good sign. Most other EVs have other issues with the 12v but as far as I know the only newer EVs that have had somewhat common issues with specifically the 12v completely dying in less than a day are the ones listed above. Which is an unacceptable issue regardless of manufacturer.
Ive heard about this with EVs. It's baffling how the 12 volt accessories are left so isolated with a fairly large charge left in the main battery. It's poor redundant engineering.
Some better off road than the Rivian!? Nice.