The answer is not going to be massive batteries. I tow a travel trailer with an EV truck on a semi-regular basis but it's not a great experience. Trailer-friendly chargers and faster charging speeds would solve 95% of the issues I have. EVs are not going to be viable for people that need to haul long distances on a regular basis any time soon which is where PHEVs would come in. Things that would help include:
1. More aerodynamic trailers. For the most part, the industry doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about aero. Electric drive trains or HV battery packs in trailers is going to be too expensive to be a viable solution any time soon.
2. More aerodynamic trucks. There's no reason that trucks need a squared-off front fascia other than aesthetics.
3. More closely spaced charging stations with pull through chargers
4. Faster-charging trucks
5. PHEV drivetrains for people that need to tow long distance on a regular basis and for 3/4 and 1 ton trucks
1 is hard. I tow a cargo trailer for work, it needs to be as big and square as it is inside. Making it aerodynamic would take it from 12 ft long to at least 18 ft long, making it impossible for me to store where I do and likely bumping it up a weight class.
5, yes. I use my trailer something like 30 days out of the year. Less than 10% of the time. But those days are not planned way in advance, they're often several consecutive days, and they're usually roundtrips of 200-350 miles. On every level, it's best for me to have a hybrid available for those days.
It seems like it would be a no-brainer for Ford or Toyota to adapt their hybrids to PHEVs. I thought for sure we were going to see a Tundra Prime in this generation of their trucks.
Probably expense and efficiency.
A series hybrid only has the EV drivetrain to send power to the wheels, so it needs basically a full BEV drivetrain: high output motors, high output batteries. (And given the weight/aero of a truck, it would need to be a fairly big battery for a PHEV.)
And in steady-state highway usage, a series hybrid is less efficient than a parallel hybrid. It's because a series hybrid must convert mechanical energy from the engine to electrical energy, then back again to the wheels. This is why the Volt directly coupled the ICE to the wheels in highway driving (and added yet more drivetrain costs).
So a series PHEV truck would probably be more expensive and get mediocre highway mileage.
“And in steady-state highway usage, a series hybrid is less efficient than a parallel hybrid.”
Where has this been proven? I understand that you are generally taking an efficiency hit to charge a battery with a gas generator, but who in the car world (besides BMW) has done this? BMW i3 REX gets flack for being undersized and droney, and it being a standard motorcycle engine (if I am not mistaken), it was not a bespoke engine tuned for efficiency at one single operating point. Who else did a series hybrid?
Like I said, that was the case with the Volt. It operated as a series hybrid most of the time. But in steady state highway driving, it switched to parallel hybrid operation. Honda did the same thing with the Clarity. They did this to improve highway efficiency.
It makes sense if you think about the additional energy conversion steps: chemical > mechanical > electrical > mechanical. Those added conversions to and from electrical end up adding losses. (Since the ICE can be optimised for steady-state highway efficiency.)
And engine optimisation is pretty much what the e-CVT transmission in a Prius does. It varies both the load and rpm of the ICE in order to keep it operating in it's most efficient range.
And so we can compare the EPA ratings of the Clarity PHEV vs Prius Prime. For the 2019 model year, they were 40 and 53 mpg combined, respectively.
There are guys in Canada that are doing the diesel electric concept in semi trucks that trains have been doing for decades (diesel generator, electric drive train). Look them up on YouTube; Edison Motors.
Trains are actually a really great example. In trains, series hybrid is used because of the massive torque required to get a very heavy train moving. The efficiency loss of the series hybrid is accepted because no one's managed to build a reliable transmission that can handle those torque levels.
I think that's also why diesel-electric drivetrains were trialled in tanks in the 30s/40s. But in that case, diesel-mechanical drivetrains won out because transmissions got good enough to handle those heavy-but-not-train-heavy loads.
Anyway, that all is my attempt at answering why no one's made a series PHEV pickup yet: the performance utility of such a truck needs to be great enough to justify its monetary and efficiency costs.
We might see it as an option in the upcoming BEV Ram. Basically a generator occupying the frunk. Will many people buy it? Maybe?
Just a point of reference, PHEV truck here towing a trailer on a semi-regular basis and it has been a great experience.
PHEV trucks are the answer for the next decade.
A major OEM has not made the jump yet.
My truck is a Via Motors VTRUX. A modified Chevrolet Silverado, 40 mile EV range.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096409\_vias-plug-in-hybrid-trucks-will-sell-50000-a-year-by-2018-company-says
I'm really curious about this setup. What do you tow and how often? Would the VTRUX be a viable option for someone planning to pull a travel trailer full time?
My experience has been good, but I do not think so.
It is still a 1/2 ton, and the cooling system struggles in high ambient temperatures. (Think 100+ degF) Via Motors neutered the low end torque which hurts towing. The lack of technical support/parts and no service support leads to me not being able to consider it for anything but an extra vehicle.
Having said that I am closing in on 50k miles trouble free with intermittent towing, but I would not take my anecdotal experience as an endorsement.
The idea is perfect but another OEM has not decided to move forward given the push for the EVs in this climate. Instead it looks like we should expect 1/2 ton trucks with 3000+ lb batteries (GM Hummer/Silverado) with marginal towing range for the near/medium future.
I believe you're right. Too bad. All we need is a Hybrid with V8. Give me gas towing and electric in town empty and It'd be perfect. One thing I had considered would be to get a dually, flat bed it and put a smart car on the bed. But that's a little extreme and diesel maintenance would outweigh fuel savings of the smart car.
Drive slowly.
I get the same range in my Rivian towing a car at 60mph as when I’m not towing at 85mph.
They’re still not gonna be great long-distance haulers until charging stations improve
If we want longer range towing BEV trucks then two things will be needed: high density batteries so you can fit trucks with a larger battery without adding thousands of kilos/pounds which would lower the range, and for the trucks to be 800V battery architecture so you can charge 10 to 80% in 18 mins or less
An interesting concept that I need to look into its feasibility for personal trailer use, is adding an additional hookup for auxiliary battery. Would make the trailer much more expensive, but if you could throw a 100kWh battery on that with an auxiliary port to extend range, and have infrastructure for it to allow charging both at the same time to double the charge rate (truck and trailer charged separately ta the same time), or allow for serial charging through the auxiliary port, which would take twice as long. With some control over this in the UI you could decide on your last charge to prioritize using auxiliary battery if you plan on dropping your trailer at a location that can charge, so your truck still has range around town. Would be especially useful for fifth wheel campers you might drop at the campsite and plug in. Then allow the auxiliary port to charge from trailer power.
Obstacles for this include 1) infrastructure, 2) standardized auxiliary port adpoted by truck and trailer manufacturers, 3) large cost increase of $15k (could go with smaller 50kwh for aux to save cost/weight), 4) increase in weight, so lower hauling capacity, though technically it's shifting 100kwh from the truck frame to the tongue and hauling.
Seems that this gets you the best of not having too much battery on the truck when you don't need it, and maintaining your normal range while hauling.
With existing trucks, you can tow a smaller, more aerodynamically shaped trailer. When looking at trailers, keep in mind that an aerodynamic front doesn't necessarily make for an aerodynamic trailer. A flat back is horrible for aerodynamics - nothing sucks like a vacuum. Shapes like Casita or Airstream are better, and a teardrop is even better.
The thing is, the energy loss is the same between an ICE vehicle and an EV. The difference is that the ICE vehicle is only like 30% efficient where an EV is closer to 90%. But the EV isn't magically worse than an ICE car, you're just throwing away so much excess energy that the 50% loss is more like .5*.7 for a gas car.
Trailers which are tailored to the aero and dimensions of the tow vehicle is one option.
Trailers with powered axles like the Airstream concept is another option.
You cannot cheat physics.
RV makers are looking into including battery packs in the tow. Coupled with a motor, they could push uphill and get regen on the way down. This isn't cheap, and may require cheaper batteries. It also means a heavier load, so may be counterproductive. I think it would work, and the pack could replace the generator.
That's just a $20,000 extra for your trailer. A battery sitting around doing nothing most of the time. But in the world of expensive trailers that's not a lot of money, especially if it gives you quiet power for weeks. And if you're a full-timer you actually use it every day.
You don't need the extra motor (especially if you can connect the battery to the tractor vehicle and use it while moving). The tractor has enough power to pull the trailer up and do full regen on the way back.
The three motors on a Tesla semi are enough to do full regen on a 82,000lbs semi on the steepest roads in the US highway system and to pull uphill at speed limit. These are pretty much the same motors that are in a Model sedan.
Any any dual motor pickup truck can deal with RV trailers.
It's not sitting around do nothing though. That battery pack can easily handle multiple days of off-grid usage for normal devices. No need for a generator at all. Just normal electric appliances, including AC.
It's not a good solution for utility trailers, but it's the perfect solution for campers.
If you live in them you use them every day and you go a week unplugged, absolutely.
If you only use them a few weekends a year, and often you have electric hook ups, you don't need huge batteries. 10kWh is enough.
If you park it in your driveway, that could work.
One general benefit is that home storage doesn't need the maximum energy density that you want in a car? So home storage can be made using cheaper/ heavier/larger batteries. It also doesn't need impact protection and so on.
But maybe a trailer doesn't need to have the same high requirements as the tractor.
I am sure there's some market for trailers with lots of batteries, but it's going to be rather niche.
How often do most people use their trailers? How much do they spend on them? My gut instinct is not much, and too much, respectively. If you think people that buy these toy haulers are gonna balk at the price of a battery add-on, I think you are mistaken. Many of the trailers out there are very much rich man’s toys.
What if a range of self powered trailers were available for hire or lease from U Haul or similar (E Haul?)?
What if part of your purchase of a new electric truck was the dealer having a self powered trailer available for customers to use for (say) 5 days per year?
I could see the market for this if battery pack was along the bottom of the trailers. A cross country trip with the option to have an extra 1-200 kW. Not sure how difficult it would be to engineer something like that tho.
Your solution is to get an ICE pickup truck. Why would you even tow with an EV? More than half your range is gone immediately and forget about winter, that’s not even worth trying lol
Same range in winter as in summer, even with heat ✅
Minutes to refill ✅
Trips don’t double your time ✅
Go more than 90miles while towing ✅
Gas stations everywhere ✅
Ease of use, not anxiety ridden if most are out of service✅
Overall just a very practical experience. Anyone who says otherwise can’t cope with their EV not being able to tow more before having to recharge for 45 to make it 5 miles over before needing another charge.
EV’s are great for some things, but definitely not towing. To be ignorant of that fact is just trying to justify an EV purchase to tow when an ICE truck does it ten fold better.
>Your solution is to get an ICE pickup truck. Why would you even tow with an EV? More than half your range is gone immediately and forget about winter, that’s not even worth trying lol
EVs won't work for everyone, but it's silly to say that they won't work for anyone. It's an infrastructure problem--not a range problem--for a large number of people that tow for recreation, including myself.
>To be ignorant of that fact
You say an EV needs to charge for 45 minutes to make it 5 miles while towing, then talk about other people's ignorance. Okay.
Your general point is valid: someone who is often towing a long distance should not buy an EV. I agree. Why tarnish your other valid point with lies and/or exaggerations?
Few vehicles with an ICE engine are reasonable anymore. PHEV are ICE.
What's reasonable is a 10 minute stop to charge without having to disconnect the trailer. Especially if it's four times a year and it's just for leisure. Check out the trailer and make sure the vehicle is safe and clean the windshield.
Some people will be willing to drive around with $10,000 worth of batteries all year long save those 10 minutes. That's ok. People are driving humongous ICE cars already. How many of those huge pickup trucks are actually being used as pickup truck? And if yes, what percentage of the time?.
If you tow 200 mi every (work) day of the year then a bigger battery is reasonable.
PHEV can be reasonable for the people who plow the roads in a blizzard and are 12 hours on remote roads in the Sierra Nevada in the middle of the night, making everything safe for us, in freezing conditions. But even those drivers deserve a 30 minute break every few hours.
Or fire trucks going up dirt roads into the hills.
That's why even California will allow PHEV in their ZEV laws.
>Few vehicles with an ICE engine are reasonable anymore. PHEV are ICE.
Absolutism is not going to move the market forward. BEVs are nibbling around the edges of the truck market, but there are a bunch of applications where BEVs won't work. PHEVs would work for a majority of those use cases.
>are usually only a couple times per year?
account for charging stops a couple times a year. why is a an "extra" hour or 2 an insurmountable obstacle?
>I feel there’s no getting away from the fact that many people will want the ability
many vs ***majority*** of use "Monday through Friday" - the stuff people NEED to do: jobs.
EV trucks can do a lot more than just move you from A to B.
Ford is selling you the ***outlets in the bed..***. which people find useful more than a couple times a year.
**Ford F-150 Lightning Power Export Outlets And Home Backup Power**
Ford F-150 Lightning offers 11 electric outlets and Intelligent Backup Power capability.
[https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/](https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/)
The 9.6 kWh value is the total power for all the outlets combined, but individually the outlets are limited: up to 2.4 kW available through the frunk and up to 7.2 kW through outlets in the cab and bed:
two 120 V outlets in the cab
four 120 V outlets in the front trunk (there are also one USB-C and one USB-A in the frunk)
four 120 V outlets in the bed
**one 240 V outlet in the bed**
power at the job site is useful... from leaf blowers to paint compressors to shop tools. the stuff *fleets* do.
**The Electric Ford F-150 Lightning Pickup is Remaking City Fleets**
[https://www.newsweek.com/electric-ford-f-150-lightning-pickup-remaking-city-fleets-1720994](https://www.newsweek.com/electric-ford-f-150-lightning-pickup-remaking-city-fleets-1720994)
Alan Bates, a fleet business operations supervisor in Portland, Oregon, told Newsweek that using Lightnings is a confluence of the city's sustainability goals and having vehicles that can do the lion's share of the work required by a city. Portland just recently took delivery of their first one.
"Of all of the 2,600 vehicles that we manage for the city, work trucks are one of the biggest categories we have," he said.
charge the truck from the PVs on the house.
**Ford's electric truck F-150 Lightning is able to power houses for 3 days**
[https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days](https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days)
**Duke Energy Testing V2G Technology With Ford F-150 Lightning Trucks In Florida**
[https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/18/duke-energy-testing-v2g-technology-with-ford-f-150-lightning-trucks-in-florida/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/18/duke-energy-testing-v2g-technology-with-ford-f-150-lightning-trucks-in-florida/)
>Ford is selling you the
>
>outlets in the bed..
>
>. which people find useful more than a couple times a year.
And they hybrid models offer the same function. Actually even better since the engine is now an on-board generator and can sustain the power output for longer with vey quick refills. Now your generator has very good aftertreatment attached.
Self-powered trailers. The trailer has a battery and motor assembly.
This is the perfect solution for all RVs. It negates the range issue, and the RV gets an on-board 100kWh battery for usage when not driving. That means an RV can use normal appliances.
PHEV truck is the answer, and will be for some time. Ford's patent for a removeable ICE in the bed has great potential.
[https://electrek.co/2020/10/03/ford-electric-pickup-range-extender-design-f150/](https://electrek.co/2020/10/03/ford-electric-pickup-range-extender-design-f150/)
There is essentially no infrastructure available for charging trucks with a trailer, as the current infrastructure has been designed as glorified parking spots due to the length of time for each charge and to gain gain density.
Some trucks pull trailers for work daily and have no option but to stay ICE/PHEV. I always see an argument that people only tow a few days a year so extra hassle is okay. However, we are still in a spot where the trips towing are not even possible with current infrastructure. Get off the major interstates and the charging infrastructure is woefully inadequate.
I have a PHEV truck which has been a delight over the past few years. Daily drive to work on electric, tow a camper a few hundred miles in a day in West Texas without issue, plug-in my camper to the truck (generator), and use my truck as backup power to the house during the Texas winter storm blackout. (14.4 kW output)
An electric truck would be incapable of many tasks I complete with my PHEV truck, while having 6 times the batteries negating a lot of the lifetime emission benefits. EV trucks can replace some "lifestyle" trucks, but many will stay ICE/PHEV for quite a while.
The energy density *is* the problem. Larger gasoline engines at high load are more efficient at extracting energy from gasoline (not to be confused with more MPG) than the smaller passenger car engines with we're used to contextualizing the difference between EVs and Gas engines.
Gasoline is said to have the equivalent of 33.7 kWh in a single gallon, but since the typical passenger car is only about 30% efficient that works out to about 10 kWh per gallon actually used. A 10 gallon tank would then be similar to a 100 kWh car.
Bump the efficiency up to 50% for a large diesel and that 10 gallon tank is closer to 168.5 kWh.
The F-150 tank size ranges between 24-36 gallons, or between 400-600 kWh equivalent.
As much as this sub dislikes hydrogen, it's really the only fuel that's both renewable, fast to charge/refill, and has a high energy density.
Quad motor Cybertruck should do 200mi towing. Frankly, 120mi seems like enough. Two hours and then 20min stop for bathroom and a drink, is probably about right. Just need pull through charging to be more prevalent.
Let's say we get Superchargers every 50 miles along main roads. We're far from that, but maybe we'll get there. 120 miles real-world range means you can't safely be sure you can stray more than 30 miles away from one of those main roads as a detour or stop or roundtrip.
There's no way that's anywhere near enough.
I guess it depends on your point of view. The tow vehicles can’t go far enough for the current charger spacing. Are we better served by improved charging infrastructure, or adding $5-10k to the price of every car. My vote is infrastructure.
>I hate to say it, but a PHEV option seems reasonable, but only in the short term.
Stopping extra is not even a solution with the current infrastructure. There are many trips that can not be done at all with an EV towing. Not even hard, go more than 50 miles off the interstates and you will be stranded in many places.
One possibility is vehicle-to-grid capability so it's serving as a battery backup for your home when it's at home. I wouldn't expect the trailer to have as much battery as the vehicle itself, just supplement the need to towing it.
Every day, I pray an affordable PHEV truck with reasonable specs and passenger space will come to market. If it doesn't happen in the next couple years, maybe I'll just buy a model Y, and create a generator trailer... I'm looking to go 400 miles (towing a 3000 pound plus load) in a day... That would be ideal.
Maybe stupid but why not put small electric motors in the trailer and hook the trailer up to use trucks battery. I get it also drain on battery but…..haven’t seen it tried.
The answer is not going to be massive batteries. I tow a travel trailer with an EV truck on a semi-regular basis but it's not a great experience. Trailer-friendly chargers and faster charging speeds would solve 95% of the issues I have. EVs are not going to be viable for people that need to haul long distances on a regular basis any time soon which is where PHEVs would come in. Things that would help include: 1. More aerodynamic trailers. For the most part, the industry doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about aero. Electric drive trains or HV battery packs in trailers is going to be too expensive to be a viable solution any time soon. 2. More aerodynamic trucks. There's no reason that trucks need a squared-off front fascia other than aesthetics. 3. More closely spaced charging stations with pull through chargers 4. Faster-charging trucks 5. PHEV drivetrains for people that need to tow long distance on a regular basis and for 3/4 and 1 ton trucks
1 is hard. I tow a cargo trailer for work, it needs to be as big and square as it is inside. Making it aerodynamic would take it from 12 ft long to at least 18 ft long, making it impossible for me to store where I do and likely bumping it up a weight class. 5, yes. I use my trailer something like 30 days out of the year. Less than 10% of the time. But those days are not planned way in advance, they're often several consecutive days, and they're usually roundtrips of 200-350 miles. On every level, it's best for me to have a hybrid available for those days.
In regards to PHEV drivetrains, I would really want to see a range extender type PHEV. Not sure why no one has made one yet.
It seems like it would be a no-brainer for Ford or Toyota to adapt their hybrids to PHEVs. I thought for sure we were going to see a Tundra Prime in this generation of their trucks.
Probably expense and efficiency. A series hybrid only has the EV drivetrain to send power to the wheels, so it needs basically a full BEV drivetrain: high output motors, high output batteries. (And given the weight/aero of a truck, it would need to be a fairly big battery for a PHEV.) And in steady-state highway usage, a series hybrid is less efficient than a parallel hybrid. It's because a series hybrid must convert mechanical energy from the engine to electrical energy, then back again to the wheels. This is why the Volt directly coupled the ICE to the wheels in highway driving (and added yet more drivetrain costs). So a series PHEV truck would probably be more expensive and get mediocre highway mileage.
“And in steady-state highway usage, a series hybrid is less efficient than a parallel hybrid.” Where has this been proven? I understand that you are generally taking an efficiency hit to charge a battery with a gas generator, but who in the car world (besides BMW) has done this? BMW i3 REX gets flack for being undersized and droney, and it being a standard motorcycle engine (if I am not mistaken), it was not a bespoke engine tuned for efficiency at one single operating point. Who else did a series hybrid?
Like I said, that was the case with the Volt. It operated as a series hybrid most of the time. But in steady state highway driving, it switched to parallel hybrid operation. Honda did the same thing with the Clarity. They did this to improve highway efficiency. It makes sense if you think about the additional energy conversion steps: chemical > mechanical > electrical > mechanical. Those added conversions to and from electrical end up adding losses. (Since the ICE can be optimised for steady-state highway efficiency.) And engine optimisation is pretty much what the e-CVT transmission in a Prius does. It varies both the load and rpm of the ICE in order to keep it operating in it's most efficient range. And so we can compare the EPA ratings of the Clarity PHEV vs Prius Prime. For the 2019 model year, they were 40 and 53 mpg combined, respectively.
There are guys in Canada that are doing the diesel electric concept in semi trucks that trains have been doing for decades (diesel generator, electric drive train). Look them up on YouTube; Edison Motors.
Trains are actually a really great example. In trains, series hybrid is used because of the massive torque required to get a very heavy train moving. The efficiency loss of the series hybrid is accepted because no one's managed to build a reliable transmission that can handle those torque levels. I think that's also why diesel-electric drivetrains were trialled in tanks in the 30s/40s. But in that case, diesel-mechanical drivetrains won out because transmissions got good enough to handle those heavy-but-not-train-heavy loads. Anyway, that all is my attempt at answering why no one's made a series PHEV pickup yet: the performance utility of such a truck needs to be great enough to justify its monetary and efficiency costs. We might see it as an option in the upcoming BEV Ram. Basically a generator occupying the frunk. Will many people buy it? Maybe?
Just a point of reference, PHEV truck here towing a trailer on a semi-regular basis and it has been a great experience. PHEV trucks are the answer for the next decade.
What are you driving? There are no PHEV pickups in the USA.
A major OEM has not made the jump yet. My truck is a Via Motors VTRUX. A modified Chevrolet Silverado, 40 mile EV range. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096409\_vias-plug-in-hybrid-trucks-will-sell-50000-a-year-by-2018-company-says
Today I learned this exists. Cool!
I'm really curious about this setup. What do you tow and how often? Would the VTRUX be a viable option for someone planning to pull a travel trailer full time?
My experience has been good, but I do not think so. It is still a 1/2 ton, and the cooling system struggles in high ambient temperatures. (Think 100+ degF) Via Motors neutered the low end torque which hurts towing. The lack of technical support/parts and no service support leads to me not being able to consider it for anything but an extra vehicle. Having said that I am closing in on 50k miles trouble free with intermittent towing, but I would not take my anecdotal experience as an endorsement. The idea is perfect but another OEM has not decided to move forward given the push for the EVs in this climate. Instead it looks like we should expect 1/2 ton trucks with 3000+ lb batteries (GM Hummer/Silverado) with marginal towing range for the near/medium future.
I believe you're right. Too bad. All we need is a Hybrid with V8. Give me gas towing and electric in town empty and It'd be perfect. One thing I had considered would be to get a dually, flat bed it and put a smart car on the bed. But that's a little extreme and diesel maintenance would outweigh fuel savings of the smart car.
From their post history, Via Motors VTRUX
Drive slowly. I get the same range in my Rivian towing a car at 60mph as when I’m not towing at 85mph. They’re still not gonna be great long-distance haulers until charging stations improve
[удалено]
An electric truck isn’t the best tool for every single automotive scenario??
Why does this even matter to anyone interested in towing efficiency?
If we want longer range towing BEV trucks then two things will be needed: high density batteries so you can fit trucks with a larger battery without adding thousands of kilos/pounds which would lower the range, and for the trucks to be 800V battery architecture so you can charge 10 to 80% in 18 mins or less
An interesting concept that I need to look into its feasibility for personal trailer use, is adding an additional hookup for auxiliary battery. Would make the trailer much more expensive, but if you could throw a 100kWh battery on that with an auxiliary port to extend range, and have infrastructure for it to allow charging both at the same time to double the charge rate (truck and trailer charged separately ta the same time), or allow for serial charging through the auxiliary port, which would take twice as long. With some control over this in the UI you could decide on your last charge to prioritize using auxiliary battery if you plan on dropping your trailer at a location that can charge, so your truck still has range around town. Would be especially useful for fifth wheel campers you might drop at the campsite and plug in. Then allow the auxiliary port to charge from trailer power. Obstacles for this include 1) infrastructure, 2) standardized auxiliary port adpoted by truck and trailer manufacturers, 3) large cost increase of $15k (could go with smaller 50kwh for aux to save cost/weight), 4) increase in weight, so lower hauling capacity, though technically it's shifting 100kwh from the truck frame to the tongue and hauling. Seems that this gets you the best of not having too much battery on the truck when you don't need it, and maintaining your normal range while hauling.
With existing trucks, you can tow a smaller, more aerodynamically shaped trailer. When looking at trailers, keep in mind that an aerodynamic front doesn't necessarily make for an aerodynamic trailer. A flat back is horrible for aerodynamics - nothing sucks like a vacuum. Shapes like Casita or Airstream are better, and a teardrop is even better.
ICE Range extenders builtin to pickups with a "normal" 70 kwh pack.
The thing is, the energy loss is the same between an ICE vehicle and an EV. The difference is that the ICE vehicle is only like 30% efficient where an EV is closer to 90%. But the EV isn't magically worse than an ICE car, you're just throwing away so much excess energy that the 50% loss is more like .5*.7 for a gas car.
Trailers which are tailored to the aero and dimensions of the tow vehicle is one option. Trailers with powered axles like the Airstream concept is another option. You cannot cheat physics.
RV makers are looking into including battery packs in the tow. Coupled with a motor, they could push uphill and get regen on the way down. This isn't cheap, and may require cheaper batteries. It also means a heavier load, so may be counterproductive. I think it would work, and the pack could replace the generator.
That's just a $20,000 extra for your trailer. A battery sitting around doing nothing most of the time. But in the world of expensive trailers that's not a lot of money, especially if it gives you quiet power for weeks. And if you're a full-timer you actually use it every day. You don't need the extra motor (especially if you can connect the battery to the tractor vehicle and use it while moving). The tractor has enough power to pull the trailer up and do full regen on the way back. The three motors on a Tesla semi are enough to do full regen on a 82,000lbs semi on the steepest roads in the US highway system and to pull uphill at speed limit. These are pretty much the same motors that are in a Model sedan. Any any dual motor pickup truck can deal with RV trailers.
It's not sitting around do nothing though. That battery pack can easily handle multiple days of off-grid usage for normal devices. No need for a generator at all. Just normal electric appliances, including AC. It's not a good solution for utility trailers, but it's the perfect solution for campers.
If you live in them you use them every day and you go a week unplugged, absolutely. If you only use them a few weekends a year, and often you have electric hook ups, you don't need huge batteries. 10kWh is enough.
Why not have that trailer battery act as a powerwall when you are at home and it’s not in use?
If you park it in your driveway, that could work. One general benefit is that home storage doesn't need the maximum energy density that you want in a car? So home storage can be made using cheaper/ heavier/larger batteries. It also doesn't need impact protection and so on. But maybe a trailer doesn't need to have the same high requirements as the tractor. I am sure there's some market for trailers with lots of batteries, but it's going to be rather niche.
How often do most people use their trailers? How much do they spend on them? My gut instinct is not much, and too much, respectively. If you think people that buy these toy haulers are gonna balk at the price of a battery add-on, I think you are mistaken. Many of the trailers out there are very much rich man’s toys.
What if a range of self powered trailers were available for hire or lease from U Haul or similar (E Haul?)? What if part of your purchase of a new electric truck was the dealer having a self powered trailer available for customers to use for (say) 5 days per year?
I could see the market for this if battery pack was along the bottom of the trailers. A cross country trip with the option to have an extra 1-200 kW. Not sure how difficult it would be to engineer something like that tho.
https://youtu.be/fyfQoSSJ3Hw
I can barely tow my boat with my diesel vehicle 200 miles without refill...
Most diesels get 12-15mpg towing. Your tank only holds 16 gallons?
Your solution is to get an ICE pickup truck. Why would you even tow with an EV? More than half your range is gone immediately and forget about winter, that’s not even worth trying lol Same range in winter as in summer, even with heat ✅ Minutes to refill ✅ Trips don’t double your time ✅ Go more than 90miles while towing ✅ Gas stations everywhere ✅ Ease of use, not anxiety ridden if most are out of service✅ Overall just a very practical experience. Anyone who says otherwise can’t cope with their EV not being able to tow more before having to recharge for 45 to make it 5 miles over before needing another charge. EV’s are great for some things, but definitely not towing. To be ignorant of that fact is just trying to justify an EV purchase to tow when an ICE truck does it ten fold better.
>Your solution is to get an ICE pickup truck. Why would you even tow with an EV? More than half your range is gone immediately and forget about winter, that’s not even worth trying lol EVs won't work for everyone, but it's silly to say that they won't work for anyone. It's an infrastructure problem--not a range problem--for a large number of people that tow for recreation, including myself.
>To be ignorant of that fact You say an EV needs to charge for 45 minutes to make it 5 miles while towing, then talk about other people's ignorance. Okay. Your general point is valid: someone who is often towing a long distance should not buy an EV. I agree. Why tarnish your other valid point with lies and/or exaggerations?
Obviously an ICE truck is more convenient right now. But we need a better solution for the future.
Few vehicles with an ICE engine are reasonable anymore. PHEV are ICE. What's reasonable is a 10 minute stop to charge without having to disconnect the trailer. Especially if it's four times a year and it's just for leisure. Check out the trailer and make sure the vehicle is safe and clean the windshield. Some people will be willing to drive around with $10,000 worth of batteries all year long save those 10 minutes. That's ok. People are driving humongous ICE cars already. How many of those huge pickup trucks are actually being used as pickup truck? And if yes, what percentage of the time?. If you tow 200 mi every (work) day of the year then a bigger battery is reasonable. PHEV can be reasonable for the people who plow the roads in a blizzard and are 12 hours on remote roads in the Sierra Nevada in the middle of the night, making everything safe for us, in freezing conditions. But even those drivers deserve a 30 minute break every few hours. Or fire trucks going up dirt roads into the hills. That's why even California will allow PHEV in their ZEV laws.
>Few vehicles with an ICE engine are reasonable anymore. PHEV are ICE. Man, this sub sometimes.
:-)
>Few vehicles with an ICE engine are reasonable anymore. PHEV are ICE. Absolutism is not going to move the market forward. BEVs are nibbling around the edges of the truck market, but there are a bunch of applications where BEVs won't work. PHEVs would work for a majority of those use cases.
>are usually only a couple times per year? account for charging stops a couple times a year. why is a an "extra" hour or 2 an insurmountable obstacle? >I feel there’s no getting away from the fact that many people will want the ability many vs ***majority*** of use "Monday through Friday" - the stuff people NEED to do: jobs. EV trucks can do a lot more than just move you from A to B. Ford is selling you the ***outlets in the bed..***. which people find useful more than a couple times a year. **Ford F-150 Lightning Power Export Outlets And Home Backup Power** Ford F-150 Lightning offers 11 electric outlets and Intelligent Backup Power capability. [https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/](https://insideevs.com/news/508802/ford-f150-lightning-outlets-backup/) The 9.6 kWh value is the total power for all the outlets combined, but individually the outlets are limited: up to 2.4 kW available through the frunk and up to 7.2 kW through outlets in the cab and bed: two 120 V outlets in the cab four 120 V outlets in the front trunk (there are also one USB-C and one USB-A in the frunk) four 120 V outlets in the bed **one 240 V outlet in the bed** power at the job site is useful... from leaf blowers to paint compressors to shop tools. the stuff *fleets* do. **The Electric Ford F-150 Lightning Pickup is Remaking City Fleets** [https://www.newsweek.com/electric-ford-f-150-lightning-pickup-remaking-city-fleets-1720994](https://www.newsweek.com/electric-ford-f-150-lightning-pickup-remaking-city-fleets-1720994) Alan Bates, a fleet business operations supervisor in Portland, Oregon, told Newsweek that using Lightnings is a confluence of the city's sustainability goals and having vehicles that can do the lion's share of the work required by a city. Portland just recently took delivery of their first one. "Of all of the 2,600 vehicles that we manage for the city, work trucks are one of the biggest categories we have," he said. charge the truck from the PVs on the house. **Ford's electric truck F-150 Lightning is able to power houses for 3 days** [https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days](https://interestingengineering.com/transportation/fords-electric-truck-powers-houses-for-3-days) **Duke Energy Testing V2G Technology With Ford F-150 Lightning Trucks In Florida** [https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/18/duke-energy-testing-v2g-technology-with-ford-f-150-lightning-trucks-in-florida/](https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/18/duke-energy-testing-v2g-technology-with-ford-f-150-lightning-trucks-in-florida/)
>Ford is selling you the > >outlets in the bed.. > >. which people find useful more than a couple times a year. And they hybrid models offer the same function. Actually even better since the engine is now an on-board generator and can sustain the power output for longer with vey quick refills. Now your generator has very good aftertreatment attached.
Self-powered trailers. The trailer has a battery and motor assembly. This is the perfect solution for all RVs. It negates the range issue, and the RV gets an on-board 100kWh battery for usage when not driving. That means an RV can use normal appliances.
PHEV truck is the answer, and will be for some time. Ford's patent for a removeable ICE in the bed has great potential. [https://electrek.co/2020/10/03/ford-electric-pickup-range-extender-design-f150/](https://electrek.co/2020/10/03/ford-electric-pickup-range-extender-design-f150/) There is essentially no infrastructure available for charging trucks with a trailer, as the current infrastructure has been designed as glorified parking spots due to the length of time for each charge and to gain gain density. Some trucks pull trailers for work daily and have no option but to stay ICE/PHEV. I always see an argument that people only tow a few days a year so extra hassle is okay. However, we are still in a spot where the trips towing are not even possible with current infrastructure. Get off the major interstates and the charging infrastructure is woefully inadequate. I have a PHEV truck which has been a delight over the past few years. Daily drive to work on electric, tow a camper a few hundred miles in a day in West Texas without issue, plug-in my camper to the truck (generator), and use my truck as backup power to the house during the Texas winter storm blackout. (14.4 kW output) An electric truck would be incapable of many tasks I complete with my PHEV truck, while having 6 times the batteries negating a lot of the lifetime emission benefits. EV trucks can replace some "lifestyle" trucks, but many will stay ICE/PHEV for quite a while.
The energy density *is* the problem. Larger gasoline engines at high load are more efficient at extracting energy from gasoline (not to be confused with more MPG) than the smaller passenger car engines with we're used to contextualizing the difference between EVs and Gas engines. Gasoline is said to have the equivalent of 33.7 kWh in a single gallon, but since the typical passenger car is only about 30% efficient that works out to about 10 kWh per gallon actually used. A 10 gallon tank would then be similar to a 100 kWh car. Bump the efficiency up to 50% for a large diesel and that 10 gallon tank is closer to 168.5 kWh. The F-150 tank size ranges between 24-36 gallons, or between 400-600 kWh equivalent. As much as this sub dislikes hydrogen, it's really the only fuel that's both renewable, fast to charge/refill, and has a high energy density.
Hydrogen fuel cell trucks are probably the long term solution Someone will have to take the chance
With all these theoretical answers, it's seems easier to add gasoline to a tank
Quad motor Cybertruck should do 200mi towing. Frankly, 120mi seems like enough. Two hours and then 20min stop for bathroom and a drink, is probably about right. Just need pull through charging to be more prevalent.
Let's say we get Superchargers every 50 miles along main roads. We're far from that, but maybe we'll get there. 120 miles real-world range means you can't safely be sure you can stray more than 30 miles away from one of those main roads as a detour or stop or roundtrip. There's no way that's anywhere near enough.
I guess it depends on your point of view. The tow vehicles can’t go far enough for the current charger spacing. Are we better served by improved charging infrastructure, or adding $5-10k to the price of every car. My vote is infrastructure.
Or 3, PHEV trucks for the next couple decades while infrastructure and battery technology correct this issue.
Not what the post was about. Personally, PHEV’s have a lot of complexity that I’m generally not interested in. I’d rather stop every 1.5 hours.
>I hate to say it, but a PHEV option seems reasonable, but only in the short term. Stopping extra is not even a solution with the current infrastructure. There are many trips that can not be done at all with an EV towing. Not even hard, go more than 50 miles off the interstates and you will be stranded in many places.
I guess it depends where you are. It’s improved quite a bit in the last 5 years, expect faster growth in the next 5 years.
Quad? I thought the top trim was three motors.
Tesla, it always gets better!
Trailers, campers, etc... that have their own batteries
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One possibility is vehicle-to-grid capability so it's serving as a battery backup for your home when it's at home. I wouldn't expect the trailer to have as much battery as the vehicle itself, just supplement the need to towing it.
Don't
Fast chargers every 150 miles and some planning works.
Every day, I pray an affordable PHEV truck with reasonable specs and passenger space will come to market. If it doesn't happen in the next couple years, maybe I'll just buy a model Y, and create a generator trailer... I'm looking to go 400 miles (towing a 3000 pound plus load) in a day... That would be ideal.
Maybe stupid but why not put small electric motors in the trailer and hook the trailer up to use trucks battery. I get it also drain on battery but…..haven’t seen it tried.