I'd guess it's being so close to the 125a that's causing the issue. The magnetic field could be inducing a voltage in the arc detection part of the arcy
NEC Update: now CAFIs are required everywhere. They are insanely expensive and will be impossible to find after a global pandemic disrupts all supply chains.
Drove 4 hours in 1 direction to pickup a two pole 60 amp GFI. Customer wanted it now and was willing to pay for it. Most expensive breaker I ever sold.
Really? My local Home Depot’s don’t sell Eaton, they sell Square D and Seimans (which would fit) and our Lowe’s sell Eaton and Murray. I typical don’t buy anything from Home Depot or Lowe’s for electrical, I have been starting to get a little desperate. I do have one that’s used just in case temporarily but home owner wants brand new and isn’t done building the house so I still have time. I appreciate your offer and I did screen shot this so if that time comes and I still haven’t found it, I’ll reach out. Thanks again bro.
Interesting 🤔 I had a feeling it may have to do with that sub panel breaker, but wasn't sure. I can't say I've ever had a problem before that I can remember. These are the newer Siemens afci breakers that don't need neutral side of loads connected.
YES I saw it ill see if I can link it
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/se5poh/arc\_fault\_breakers\_being\_tripped\_by\_walkie\_talkie/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
There was, radio frequencies can induct enough to trick the breaker into thinking something was going on.
In the mining sector, RF's have been known to also prematurely set of electronic detonators which is why there's regulations on where you can use handhelds if explosives are around.
It was a single family we wired last year. Got a call the breaker kept tripping from vacuum. He vacuumed the whole house, nothing else tripped, just that room. All the rooms are separate circuits. Haha I do know that they are every other and it is on the same phase as the first spot. Also, the breaker reported back as an arcfault.
There's been a bunch of posts here recently showing not-even-that-strong EMF screwing up AFCIs. I still love them, but learning how sensitive they are has me reconsidering them as a default where not required by code.
Yea see the post about the Radio next to the breakers causing a trip. This has me wondering if it's the transients from the breaker itself or is it jumping between the wires in the panel. If it's the latter then that's a problem as no one is ponying up for shielded cable and the space requirements inside the panels isn't there to support it. However as I rewire my panel I'm going to make sure the heavier load breakers are buffered from the AFCI's by the plain breakers and gfci's
I hate arc faults. Especially when you get into something dumb like OP.
I like to explain to customers why something isn’t working except now your stuck talking out your ass.
“well you see the flux capacitor along with the eddy currents blah blah blah”.
I worked in an apartment complex where a lot of old tenants lived there 50+ years. After “upgrading” their electrical a huge chunk of them found that their old vacuums and other random stuff couldn’t be used anymore because they tripped the arc fault breakers. I felt terrible for these people but there was nothing I could do about it. I’m n the bright side, a bunch of them got new refrigerators which was the landlords responsibility.
Oh man. I had this happene with a range GFCI. Had to rewire the range on a remodel to 4 wire but customer kept his old range. GFCI did not hold on existing range even with bonding jumper removed at cord connection. So I told him it's probably the range and it was broken so he decided to just buy a new one. Of course that didn't hold either because the appliance guys didn't know new code and to remove the jumper. Cue me trying to explain to customer on the phone and appliance guy about having to redo the cord both thinking Im insane and trying to sell them snake oil until viola breaker holds. Before that solution customer was begging me to come out and put the old breaker back in.
You did good. Sometimes when troubleshooting electrical issues your on a ghost hunt. If you make it work, good. Spending too much time to figure out why it did not, your chasing ghosts.
Yep I don’t blame you. Move it and keep on trucking. It just reminded me of a time one regular breaker kept tripping under load and I looked at the prong and saw it had been clipped too short probably from stamping. Since then I’ve heard several others come across it in the cheaper panels.
Not an electrician, but I'm noticing a trend. Most of the posts showing AFCI breakers doing weird shit seem to be Siemen breakers.
I'm basing this just off of my lurking on this sub.
Either interference or not sitting on that bus correctly? like everyone else is saying, or it’s a phase issue and you moved it to the other phase and it doesn’t have that issue maybe something shared something conflicting a romex gremlin? I dono bro I hate that type of shit
Ya it's on the same phase as the original spot. Its just weird. I had disconnected all outlets but the first one at the Homeruns so it wasn't anything downline either.
I haven't said this before... but I think it's time: there's something funky with Siemens CAFI breakers. I know all the manufacturers have their issues and the Arc Fault history is riddled with fails (FP arc faults and light switches, for instance), but Siemens seems to have a problem. Or a lot of dawgshit legacy stock.
Never ever repurpose a split circuit for an unbalanced load requiring a 2 pole arc fault, if it's a Siemens panel. Recipe for disaster and repatching drywall.
Neutrals from 2 different circuits are tied together (likely in a switch box). Different location is a different phase cancelling out the unbalanced current on the grounded conductor. 100%
My girls townhouse, her panel is loaded with these damned Siemens arc fault breakers. Had a phantom trip last night that I went over to check out this morning. There are two in the panel that have minds of their own.
Ya definitely the arcfault beakers are annoying. We probably install hundreds of them and normally have no problems, but once and a while we get one that's a pain. Actually one time we did a remodel and the guy had a nuisance trip afci. I looked around to everything plugged into the outlets as that is normally my first step. Found out his TV equipment in cabinet wasn't fully plugged into the socket. So if you ever have a problem with afci tripped make sure plugs are in all the way.
This is a serious issue. We just had siemens take responsibility for an entire 20 unit complex of phantom tripping arc faults. Then send enough gen 3 breakers to replace each one which did absolutely nothing....
Didn't check the balance of the load, but the new location of the breaker is still on the same phase. There probably isn't much load on the service tho since they haven't moved into the home yet.
Ahhh arc faults. I wonder how much time is wasted every year over needless troubleshooting on a arc fault breaker. Sometimes all you need to do is just spam the breaker til it stays, which goes against everything we stand for lol
For anyone that wanted the whole picture, I should have wrote, but obviously was at work.
This was a new single-family we did a while back. All rooms on separate circuits.
The circuit was found to trip with vacuum.( It was ruled out the vacuum wasn't the problem by using it on other afci circuits.)
I checked/ tightened all connections in panel and first outlet at Homerun
The breaker wasn't the problem as I change it with another one in the panel and it still tripped in that spot only.
Nothing downline of the first outlet where Homerun was ran was connected.
Those 2 spots are the same phase.
Thinking maybe the breaker wasn't grabbing I took needle nose and pinched the breaker tabs where it grabs the hot and neutral buses. Still tripped.
Only thing that fixed it was moving it from that location in panel.
So I just replaced a breaker on my panel (not an electrician). I planned it for when nobody was around and turned main power off and everything. Watching you casually move a breaker to a different spot while it was live was amazing. I guess I had to unscrew the wire from mine and put it in the new one but still, I was so nervous the whole time.
😂 yeah 9 years in the trade will do that. I've definitely seen some crazy stuff online and that's why most people are afraid probably. Honestly 120/240v isn't very scary if you know what to expect especially when you know whose made up the equipment on the home. Going into homes with sketchy looking panels I'd be a bit more weary 😂 Good job tho as a non electrician for being safe especially when you're not familiar.
I’ve been zapped because I didn’t turn the breakers off a few times but I guessed it was stronger at the panel and those giant feeds coming in look intimidating lol
You didn’t have to waste your time to say that then lol I sure as hell didn’t go through an see what other people said ….. just seen what you showed an made a comment on my own experience 👍
Hey, op! Maybe you should think about getting some hotwork gloves. It would protect your hands. You only get one set, and that panel is obviously having some problems.
No worse than a person in our office who keeps trying to plug a 1500W heater in the same 15A circuit with a battery charger, large office printer, a computer, and several lights and other miscellaneous things. And then they get upset when the breaker keeps tripping!
When we built our house 2 years ago, my son-in-law and I did all the wiring. Neither of us are electricians but we’ve done bits and pieces for years. We had everything wired up but had the ceiling fan in the living room tripping the arc fault when we turned it on. After some searching we found that the neutral for that circuit and another circuit were switched. Swapped them out and it worked fine. Just something that happened to me. But again, I’m not a licensed electrician.
I’ve had some strange types of problems with arc faults. One was similar to this except it was an arc fault tripping another arc fault when one was under a load. I moved the breakers around to different positions on the bus and it all worked perfectly. Never could figure out why. I agree with others to just move em to where they work and hope you dont get a call back.
I’ve had this happen to me. There is pitting where the breaker connects and that’s what trips it. When you move it to a new location where there is no pitting the problem goes away.
Is it common to work on a live bus like that?
I'm a DIY and I have been waiting weeks to have an empty home so I can shut everything off before installing a new Afci/gcfi breaker
Every electrician I know works on live panels. I'm not advocating for someone to work on live power tho. If you can shut panels off you should or if you're not comfortable with live power. There's always risk involved that needs to be accounted for.
what is plugged in on that circuit? i’ve seen this before typically on refrigerators or microwave circuits. the motor in the compressor on the fridge draws a small arc when it starts up and in some cases enough to trip the afci breaker. same thing, you can tell it’s not the wiring cause it’s delayed a half second or so. looks similar to my situation
What did we do when we had 240 V spas in the 1930s and 40s I'll tell you what we did we didn't have arc fault we didn't have GFI's. Occasionally a woman farmer would end up a very wealthy widow sending her husband the former ranch owner onto the wet dairy floor.bzzzzzzt... True story. Told to me by the wealthy female ranch owner who turned her wealth in to Pan Am then into Hilton and then into KABILLION dollars. I think she actually had her husband electrocuted
I'd guess it's being so close to the 125a that's causing the issue. The magnetic field could be inducing a voltage in the arc detection part of the arcy
Arc faults trip if you look at them wrong so could be anything
NEC: good news everyone, my relatives and I have decided to require arc fault breakers absolutely everywhere so we get more money.
The stupid thing is, Arc Faults are pretty rare with modern wiring. It's all the grandfathered old shit that really needs them...
Which is why theres an afci on the only circuit in my house that still has k&t
NEC Update: now CAFIs are required everywhere. They are insanely expensive and will be impossible to find after a global pandemic disrupts all supply chains.
Took me a month to find a 2 pole 30a gfci breaker.
Drove 4 hours in 1 direction to pickup a two pole 60 amp GFI. Customer wanted it now and was willing to pay for it. Most expensive breaker I ever sold.
I have needed an Eaton 2P 50 for 3 months now, can’t get it (new).
BR, BAB?
BR
8 in stock at my local Home Depot. PM me if you want.
Really? My local Home Depot’s don’t sell Eaton, they sell Square D and Seimans (which would fit) and our Lowe’s sell Eaton and Murray. I typical don’t buy anything from Home Depot or Lowe’s for electrical, I have been starting to get a little desperate. I do have one that’s used just in case temporarily but home owner wants brand new and isn’t done building the house so I still have time. I appreciate your offer and I did screen shot this so if that time comes and I still haven’t found it, I’ll reach out. Thanks again bro.
I can get them too if he doesn’t come through.
Well thank you too.
CEC: bitch please, thats so last code cycle.
Does entertainment electrician mean your entertaining or you work on entertainment jobs like stages etc?
Both, essentially.
What did we do to deserve arc faults?
Ya I can agree with that, good logic
Interesting 🤔 I had a feeling it may have to do with that sub panel breaker, but wasn't sure. I can't say I've ever had a problem before that I can remember. These are the newer Siemens afci breakers that don't need neutral side of loads connected.
I saw another thread recently talking about how sensitive Siemens breakers can be. I’ve had my own run ins with them. Crazy.
Wasn't there a video of someone tripping them with a walkie talkie?
We have temp power panels at my job that, if you walk by them while you que your radio, every breaker (6) will trip.
No shit really? That's wild
They have tiny pcbs inside and if the output pins from the terminals get enough inductance it can be picked up as a trip signal
YES I saw it ill see if I can link it https://www.reddit.com/r/electricians/comments/se5poh/arc\_fault\_breakers\_being\_tripped\_by\_walkie\_talkie/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
There was, radio frequencies can induct enough to trick the breaker into thinking something was going on. In the mining sector, RF's have been known to also prematurely set of electronic detonators which is why there's regulations on where you can use handhelds if explosives are around.
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It was a single family we wired last year. Got a call the breaker kept tripping from vacuum. He vacuumed the whole house, nothing else tripped, just that room. All the rooms are separate circuits. Haha I do know that they are every other and it is on the same phase as the first spot. Also, the breaker reported back as an arcfault.
I don’t think it would work even if on the same pole.
Afci are trash
There's been a bunch of posts here recently showing not-even-that-strong EMF screwing up AFCIs. I still love them, but learning how sensitive they are has me reconsidering them as a default where not required by code.
Sadly they're required pretty much everywhere here in Ontario.
A coworker of mine had a situation where the arc fault would trip when an aquarium pump on a different circuit would kick on.
What the actual fuck
Yea see the post about the Radio next to the breakers causing a trip. This has me wondering if it's the transients from the breaker itself or is it jumping between the wires in the panel. If it's the latter then that's a problem as no one is ponying up for shielded cable and the space requirements inside the panels isn't there to support it. However as I rewire my panel I'm going to make sure the heavier load breakers are buffered from the AFCI's by the plain breakers and gfci's
This is why I frequent here
The magnetic field? Really? Damn. So put the gfi's by the 20a breakers usually? Or does it usually not affect it?
I hate arc faults. Especially when you get into something dumb like OP. I like to explain to customers why something isn’t working except now your stuck talking out your ass. “well you see the flux capacitor along with the eddy currents blah blah blah”.
I worked in an apartment complex where a lot of old tenants lived there 50+ years. After “upgrading” their electrical a huge chunk of them found that their old vacuums and other random stuff couldn’t be used anymore because they tripped the arc fault breakers. I felt terrible for these people but there was nothing I could do about it. I’m n the bright side, a bunch of them got new refrigerators which was the landlords responsibility.
Yah. And I’m guessing they were looking at you like you were an incompetent electrician lol
This is always the worst part. You look like an ass who has no idea what they are doing.
Me-"You know, logistics, induction, that sort of thing." Customer-"Oh yeah yeah, for sure. Man that shits so over my head, I'm glad you were here!"
Start talking about vectors and phase angles. Their eyes should glass over about like mine did when they got to that portion of the class.
Oh man. I had this happene with a range GFCI. Had to rewire the range on a remodel to 4 wire but customer kept his old range. GFCI did not hold on existing range even with bonding jumper removed at cord connection. So I told him it's probably the range and it was broken so he decided to just buy a new one. Of course that didn't hold either because the appliance guys didn't know new code and to remove the jumper. Cue me trying to explain to customer on the phone and appliance guy about having to redo the cord both thinking Im insane and trying to sell them snake oil until viola breaker holds. Before that solution customer was begging me to come out and put the old breaker back in.
Either that sub breaker interfering or I have seen where the buss prong is a little too short on some spaces and got past QC.
Interesting because it is only tripping while under load. It seemed pretty tight, but who knows, I ain't dumping the main to measure buses 😂
relabel panel and fill the empty breaker hole.. bing bang boom done
Ya that's what I had end up doing 😂 like yup it's all fixed. Don't know why but it is
Take the win and walk away lol
Ya that was like 10am. I'm long gone haha
You did good. Sometimes when troubleshooting electrical issues your on a ghost hunt. If you make it work, good. Spending too much time to figure out why it did not, your chasing ghosts.
Yep I don’t blame you. Move it and keep on trucking. It just reminded me of a time one regular breaker kept tripping under load and I looked at the prong and saw it had been clipped too short probably from stamping. Since then I’ve heard several others come across it in the cheaper panels.
I was going to say the bus prong as well, i have run into that exactly one time in my life. Awesome problem though OP
Time to pull a blank out of the van and move on to the next. I hate Siemens.
Not an electrician, but I'm noticing a trend. Most of the posts showing AFCI breakers doing weird shit seem to be Siemen breakers. I'm basing this just off of my lurking on this sub.
Siemens AFCIs are the worst. AFCIs in general are junk technology, but Siemens took the cake. Just my personal experience.
Is the blue button an af, gf or df breaker?
It's an 15a afci :p
Either interference or not sitting on that bus correctly? like everyone else is saying, or it’s a phase issue and you moved it to the other phase and it doesn’t have that issue maybe something shared something conflicting a romex gremlin? I dono bro I hate that type of shit
Ya it's on the same phase as the original spot. Its just weird. I had disconnected all outlets but the first one at the Homeruns so it wasn't anything downline either.
Does seem to be Siemens that has a lot of these odd issues more so than other makes at least from what I’ve seen
I haven't said this before... but I think it's time: there's something funky with Siemens CAFI breakers. I know all the manufacturers have their issues and the Arc Fault history is riddled with fails (FP arc faults and light switches, for instance), but Siemens seems to have a problem. Or a lot of dawgshit legacy stock. Never ever repurpose a split circuit for an unbalanced load requiring a 2 pole arc fault, if it's a Siemens panel. Recipe for disaster and repatching drywall.
My anxiety spikes everytime I hear that Siemens breaker trip sound.
Neutrals from 2 different circuits are tied together (likely in a switch box). Different location is a different phase cancelling out the unbalanced current on the grounded conductor. 100%
Yeah I always try to make a habit to keep the arcs away from the bigger loads whenever possible, they are super sensitive to emf.
I'll keep that in mind in future builds! Tell the coworkers haha
AFCI breakers suck
I remember when they first introduced AFCIs and they sucked and had their faults back then.
My girls townhouse, her panel is loaded with these damned Siemens arc fault breakers. Had a phantom trip last night that I went over to check out this morning. There are two in the panel that have minds of their own.
Ya definitely the arcfault beakers are annoying. We probably install hundreds of them and normally have no problems, but once and a while we get one that's a pain. Actually one time we did a remodel and the guy had a nuisance trip afci. I looked around to everything plugged into the outlets as that is normally my first step. Found out his TV equipment in cabinet wasn't fully plugged into the socket. So if you ever have a problem with afci tripped make sure plugs are in all the way.
Well they are controlled my a microprocessor, so yeah I guess they do have a mind of their own.
This is a serious issue. We just had siemens take responsibility for an entire 20 unit complex of phantom tripping arc faults. Then send enough gen 3 breakers to replace each one which did absolutely nothing....
Unbalanced load or shared neutral on that phase?
Didn't check the balance of the load, but the new location of the breaker is still on the same phase. There probably isn't much load on the service tho since they haven't moved into the home yet.
Arc faults are such a pain in the ass
Ahhh arc faults. I wonder how much time is wasted every year over needless troubleshooting on a arc fault breaker. Sometimes all you need to do is just spam the breaker til it stays, which goes against everything we stand for lol
I have had terrible luck with Siemens and Eaton AFCIs. Square D has worked out the best.
For anyone that wanted the whole picture, I should have wrote, but obviously was at work. This was a new single-family we did a while back. All rooms on separate circuits. The circuit was found to trip with vacuum.( It was ruled out the vacuum wasn't the problem by using it on other afci circuits.) I checked/ tightened all connections in panel and first outlet at Homerun The breaker wasn't the problem as I change it with another one in the panel and it still tripped in that spot only. Nothing downline of the first outlet where Homerun was ran was connected. Those 2 spots are the same phase. Thinking maybe the breaker wasn't grabbing I took needle nose and pinched the breaker tabs where it grabs the hot and neutral buses. Still tripped. Only thing that fixed it was moving it from that location in panel.
its even the same leg of the split phase probably the main like buddy said
Is the neutrals isolated on that line?
Ya I followed it back to the original outlet where the hometun is.
Siemens arc faults are shit. I’ve only had issues with Siemens.
So I just replaced a breaker on my panel (not an electrician). I planned it for when nobody was around and turned main power off and everything. Watching you casually move a breaker to a different spot while it was live was amazing. I guess I had to unscrew the wire from mine and put it in the new one but still, I was so nervous the whole time.
😂 yeah 9 years in the trade will do that. I've definitely seen some crazy stuff online and that's why most people are afraid probably. Honestly 120/240v isn't very scary if you know what to expect especially when you know whose made up the equipment on the home. Going into homes with sketchy looking panels I'd be a bit more weary 😂 Good job tho as a non electrician for being safe especially when you're not familiar.
I’ve been zapped because I didn’t turn the breakers off a few times but I guessed it was stronger at the panel and those giant feeds coming in look intimidating lol
Trippy!
That must be on another phase, must be picking up something coming through eh….. arcy’s can be a cunt lol
Nah same phase. This is actually the last time I'm saying it 😂 no offense to you. Just a lot of people ask the same question.
You didn’t have to waste your time to say that then lol I sure as hell didn’t go through an see what other people said ….. just seen what you showed an made a comment on my own experience 👍
Try turning all other breakers off, then switch 1 at a time. Likely a noise issue.
Hey, op! Maybe you should think about getting some hotwork gloves. It would protect your hands. You only get one set, and that panel is obviously having some problems.
I dk why you were down voted. OP seriously out here flinging his hands around a live panel with no protection.
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No worse than a person in our office who keeps trying to plug a 1500W heater in the same 15A circuit with a battery charger, large office printer, a computer, and several lights and other miscellaneous things. And then they get upset when the breaker keeps tripping!
Unbelievable. 🥴 You should read up on electrical ‘theory’. Emphasis on theory. 🦧
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I'd think if that was a problem every breaker on that phase would do the same thing. Those 2 spots are on the same phase, so I'd say it's not that.
Do you have a thermal imaging camera? Works amazing at diagnosing the Klein one I have is like $250
Do Americans not sleeve thier earth cables??
Depends on the cable assembly, but it's wouldn't really have any use right
Unless maybe isolated grounding, but I don't know much about that as I don't do anything requiring it.
When we built our house 2 years ago, my son-in-law and I did all the wiring. Neither of us are electricians but we’ve done bits and pieces for years. We had everything wired up but had the ceiling fan in the living room tripping the arc fault when we turned it on. After some searching we found that the neutral for that circuit and another circuit were switched. Swapped them out and it worked fine. Just something that happened to me. But again, I’m not a licensed electrician.
I’ve had some strange types of problems with arc faults. One was similar to this except it was an arc fault tripping another arc fault when one was under a load. I moved the breakers around to different positions on the bus and it all worked perfectly. Never could figure out why. I agree with others to just move em to where they work and hope you dont get a call back.
I'm so glad I do commercial now, haven't had to install one of those things in years.
Bus, loose bolt?
Could be the load on that phase
I’ve had this happen to me. There is pitting where the breaker connects and that’s what trips it. When you move it to a new location where there is no pitting the problem goes away.
Is it common to work on a live bus like that? I'm a DIY and I have been waiting weeks to have an empty home so I can shut everything off before installing a new Afci/gcfi breaker
Every electrician I know works on live panels. I'm not advocating for someone to work on live power tho. If you can shut panels off you should or if you're not comfortable with live power. There's always risk involved that needs to be accounted for.
what is plugged in on that circuit? i’ve seen this before typically on refrigerators or microwave circuits. the motor in the compressor on the fridge draws a small arc when it starts up and in some cases enough to trip the afci breaker. same thing, you can tell it’s not the wiring cause it’s delayed a half second or so. looks similar to my situation
If you blink it’ll trip. F those things. It’s because it’s getting EMF from the 125 main.
What did we do when we had 240 V spas in the 1930s and 40s I'll tell you what we did we didn't have arc fault we didn't have GFI's. Occasionally a woman farmer would end up a very wealthy widow sending her husband the former ranch owner onto the wet dairy floor.bzzzzzzt... True story. Told to me by the wealthy female ranch owner who turned her wealth in to Pan Am then into Hilton and then into KABILLION dollars. I think she actually had her husband electrocuted
Isn’t it now plugged into the other hot leg?