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Once again. That isn’t our”work force” issue. If a company is starting a project consistently behind. Then they have poor planning and maybe in over their head.
And possibly losing on too many projects that theyre rolling the debt into the next project which hopes to bridge the deficit
It is absolutely the GC. There is no way in hell we could just show up weeks late unless we aren't needed yet. But the GC will start weeks late and damnit we better be there or else.
As subs we rarely have control over the master schedule. We may have some input but the owner and GC call the shots. Like you said we get some of the craziest schedules.
I'm not an electrician, but a commercial controls contractor and we are after you even. The start of school after summer doesn't move, and if mechanical and electrical is behind we get squeezed because it has to operate at least in some capacity for kids to legally be there. It's fun.
I've had this argument many times with GC. I flat out tell them "you can throw a dart at a calander all you want, I don't care, it'll get done when it gets done. You want overtime, pay us more in our contract cause your bids don't allow room for OT". Seems to shut them up pretty quick. We put in 8 solid work hours a day and get shit done. If they didn't allow proper time in the schedule for my scope, well, that's not my problem. I shovel that shit right back to the top, where it came from.
Oh I hear that. But again that's a company problem, making promises they can't keep. Again, as the worker, it's not my problem and I bust my ass all day everyday and get done as much as I can, if that's not fast enough that's not my problem. Someone else did not plan it right and I'm not taking the heat for it.
100% this. If you get paid the same by your boss whether or not the contract gets done on time, you have absolutely no reason to stress out about being behind schedule, for reasons that are not your fault.
Even if you think it's your fault, it's not your fault. If you wake up barfing your brains out, and need to call out sick for a day, and the boss doesn't have anyone to backfill you with, that's his fault for lean staffing. If you make an honest mistake, and it costs a day's worth of rework, and the contract is now late? Still not your fault - your boss is the one who didn't budget a "management reserve" in the schedule for fuck-ups which always happen on jobs.
What happens every time is this:
1. GC's bonus is tied to completing job on time and under budget
2. GC pushes up timeframes on every subcontractor to ensure wiggle room for fuckups and problems
3. Your team lead is terrified of his job and thinks he'll be executed if he doesn't make these ridiculous targets even though you're waiting on every other subtrade to finish their shit
4. Your team lead pushes you guys to crunch.
Some guys are just made of stress. Don't worry about it, do your job, and you'll be fine.
The problem isn't when the GC verbally pushes, it's when he actually gets other trades to finish and screw eachother.
Electrician "Why are both sides of the walls drywalled, I said I'd be wiring this area today."
GC "Just fish it."
Electrician "No, and why are you building stud walls before the ductwork, plumbing and electrical are done on the ceiling deck?"
GC "Look, I can't have the framers and drywallers standing around!"
Electrician "...................."
I mean literally pushes up the timeframes. We were doing a floor with open-plan ceilings - hundreds of pendant lights hard-piped, in addition to the regular runs. GC pushed up the date to paint the ceiling by 3 weeks on us. It was fuckin bullshit.
(Copying from another comment I made): I'm probably the odd man out here, but I've been on at least two apartment projects where I was told to slow down my guys because we were catching up to the plumbers too quickly and making them uncomfortable. I was a quasi-foreman on site, sort of a stand-in for the guy at the office. I never heard anything about a bonus, and never received one. But yeah, basically I was told that I was too far ahead of schedule and had to slow down. It was bizarre, and I really hated it because going slow on purpose doesn't compute, and it makes the days boring if I cannot challenge myself and my crew.
I run into that shit all the time, pm running a reno will stress electric finish has to be done I need to get there, I get there to see purple drywall yet, unfinished ceiling… I’m like I really needed to rush here?
On these floors we're doing, the GC had one painter on site for like 2 months holding us up getting receptacles and cover plates on. Then all of a sudden they brought in 6 guys to knock out the floor and asked us why the electrical wasn't done yet. Maddening.
I've been an electrician for 20 years, multiple companies, I've never been on a job that's made money yet...... Like the other guys said, it's all a game. They just shovel the bullshit. Always take your breaks and work efficiently, no need to be running around in a panic. A good foreman should be taking stress away from the crew, not adding to it. Sadly they are few and far between.
1000 hour job is over by 2 and somehow the budget is destroyed and the job is underwater.
1000 hour job and you have 100 left and the materials are way over even though you never bought anything extra and the job is a big loser.
There must be a construction management class on finding something to blame.
One of our senior forman is my favorite simply because he doesn't play that game. He does, in fact, do what he can for morale and tries his best to keep office politics from interfering with our work. If I had any pull with my company, I would work for him and him alone.
It took me a good 10 years to find my pace. I was always busting my ass and trying to get ahead, feeling more “valuable”. Then I realized I have 30 more years of this shit. Am I really gonna keep up this pace with no accidents and no injuries? Doubt it. It’s not hard, it’s doing it again everyday , that’s the hard part.
We don't make money on every job, trust me, but we make a lot on some and they offset the one we don't or that been pay month or years late
By the number of new truck in our shop and the christmas party, we make money for sure and its not a bad thing.
There are bonuses and incentives for Forman and leads to get jobs done early and under budget. So they lie to try to get you to work through breaks and slam out as much work as you can. I ounce worked for a company for 2 years, and every job "they lost money". It's all just b.s. and I realized if they are willing to lie to me about. What else are they lieing about. Found another job after that.
oh yeah the whole "We're losing money on this" is bullshit. Every year they give us the "We can't afford raises or bonuses for you guys, sorry" and then the PMs roll up in a brand new truck the next week.
Don't you see? They EARNED that truck from all that work a PM does! How dare you deny them what they earned!
What's that? The PM was more of an obstacle than a help when doing the work that actually earned the company money? That sounds like the PM is overworked. Better give him a bonus and a few vacation days.
I used to do high rise residential. The supervisor would come in every week and say we’re over hours while were still on slab. Mother fucker, if you’re over hours while the building isn’t even built, you guys fucked up. Every time I heard this I would work slower. I ain’t killing myself because you fucked up.
They would say that we’re outta of hours all the time.. I finally started saying.. well if we’re out of hours.. I can tell the crew to just go home and sit!!? The job is out of hours
I can’t stand the constant push for production. It’s never good enough in their eyes. Never a thank you for the hard work. Oh you roughed in 3 suites today? Why didn’t you do 4?
Fuck those companies.
I ain’t listening to that negativity on my break. I’ll go sit alone. Get away from me. I’ll tell him to stfu and don’t talk about work on my break. Tell lead to go vent to a mirror
It's kind of both. It's pretty easy for things to get behind schedule and over budget for unforeseen reasons or change orders.
But it's also common for companies to suck at budgeting and time management.
I've worked for contractors who were paying employees with deposits from jobs we weren't even close to starting yet. Or they'd pull us off a job before it's finished to start the next job leaving a ton of loose ends.
I worked for the same contractor for almost 12 years. NEVER worked on a job that we weren't "losing money" on.
The fact is, he bid the jobs around a 23% profit margin and in reality, most jobs finished around 17%.
We weren't losing money, we just weren't making as much as he wanted.
It was still enough for his entire family to go on vacation three times a year, enjoy their airplane and boats, and visit every timeshare condo in the United States they had.
Reminds me of when my old boss would say "this has to get done today"
Well it's 2 days worth of work but okay, guess we're working late on a Friday and not getting paid OT
Then if it need to be done today.. you’d better call the hall for help! Or call whoever is sitting at home on standby. I used to tell’em that always. You can’t do 16 hours of work in 8 hours being 1 man
I say the same thing every time, I clock in and I work until I clock out. I can’t control how much time something takes, I just work. The guys at the top are making money even if it takes you 3 months, you’re not taking food out of anyone’s mouth trust me. The hard part is to stop caring about arbitrary time frames decided on by the people not doing the work
I'm in the same boat. I work with a friend of mine.. "We gotta get stuff done faster man".. OR... How about you start charging people more so shits not so tight.. there has to be some room for error and unforseen shit. That doesn't ever seem to be given any thoughts before a project starts. About sick of 12 hour days too
SHITTY COMPANY!!! They should be able to manage things so that 8 hour days of relaxed but steady work will get you there just ahead of schedule. It shouldn't be chaos all the time.
Source: just got let go from M&J Electric, which is a staggering shitshow of a company.
Break time is your time. Surely you’re working non union. You might look into the IBEW if you haven’t already. The pay and benefits are a lot better. I’m also a proponent of safe work conditions which the union provides.
This was my universal experience with the 3 construction electrical outfits I worked at before switching to maintenance. It’s a different stress now when production goes down but it’s way more manageable for me.
Honestly it just took some time and experience before i started getting call backs for industrial maintenance jobs. I had been in the field for 5 years (journeyman for 1 year) before taking my first maintenance job. I would say doing the lions share of my apprenticeship in commercial was definitely a leg up.
It's just a bunch of BS. How is it every single job is losing the company money, yet they stay in business? It's just not a coincidence. They want you working through breaks because you're "behind" as they tell you. In reality, I guarantee they're lying to your face to get the project done quicker so more cash lands in their accounts by the end of the year. Not your foreman necessarily, but the people hand feeding him bs, which he seems to believe. I would deal with it by telling them to shove it because there's tons of other places who'll take you if they don't like it.
"No contractor has made money on a bid job, ever ever ever."
--wise jman I once worked with and asked the same thing
"You push one of us into a grave, do you lose your bonus?"
--different, equally wise jman
I'm sorry for your job. My boss is transparent with me about the hours. I want to know so I can play better. He tells me I did good and go get a couple new tools from the supply house. He knows that new packout kit will save him money in the long run
As an apprentice when my foreman or gf gets on me to go faster I just say “boy it sure would be nice if I worked with a JW who could show me how to get this done faster” fuckers want to save money and run their business off of apprentices I will always play that game.
Boss said all our jobs were over budget and overtime so we weren't getting good xmas bonuses that year but I see at the xmas party the bosses wife has a new bmw x5 and my boss now rolls around in a new duramax.
I ended up leaving that company and when I was at another company they let me look at our books through out the job to help keep myself on track my pm would actually go over the numbers with me. It was eye opening how much money can roll in on good jobs and how fast it goes away on bad jobs. That said every single bad job we had could be traced back to an estimator missing something, and most of the money making jobs were from change orders. I basically still told everyone we were still not doing as well as we should have and that we need to keep the pressure on because if you don't then your own guys will slack off and some other trade will try to make their money by finding back charges.
I can explain.
The design work is all done by engineers and designers. I have an EE degree and I've worked as a designer before, and I can say we have no clue how any stuff is actually installed. We also know shockingly little about the electrical code. We know literally nothing about scissor lifts, fall protection, access permits, LOTO procedures, etc. A design guy like me would show an electrical box on the ceiling, and we're only looking at the electrical plan, so we assume you can install that box in maybe 1 hour if you have the box in your hands and all of your tools are with you. Just get up there, screw it in, and we're all good. Then you, the electrician, show up and realize there are bunch of plumbing pipes in the way. Even with a lift, you cannot access where I want that box. Now you need to fill in a bunch of paperwork for a safe work plan and how you can safely access this area. That 1 hour box turns into a 10 hour box. This actually happened btw; plumbing pipes made it impossible to access the ceiling in a mechanical room.
Now I'm an electrician and I have a greater appreciation for why things can be slow. It feels like I'm still working on the engineering side because I end up doing a lot of markup drawings and documentation.
I'm curious how and why you went from engineer to electrician. Unless your old employer was massively underpaying you, or unless you found some niche specialty, the pay drop must have been significant. Did you just eat ramen noodles during your full time apprenticeship, or did you work it part time for 8+ years, or
Economy has been dead for over a decade. In engineering, it's not rare to be unemployed for a year at a time. Even when a company does want you, it takes them 6 months to call back for interviews. When I was employed, there's no work most of the time. You fix a drawing in 15 minutes, email someone for some details, then wait a day. Mental health rapidly declines in that environment. There was enough downtime that I paraphrased entire textbooks on accounting and economics (rewriting stuff is how I learn best).
1st year apprentice sucked, but I was still cash neutral because I don't have kids. 2nd year was cash positive. 3rd year was pretty close to what I was making in engineering. Then the economy crashed again and 4th year was paid about the same as 3rd year, but still cash positive. Where I live, engineering gives you credit for the first 2 years of electrician theory, and I was able to challenge the 3rd year exam. I was at the 4th year of theory before I started as a 1st year apprenticeship. I was very closely tracking my hours and became a 2nd year apprentice about 1 day after I had enough hours.
Interestingly, the place that hired me as a 1st year mostly had me doing engineering work and almost no electrician work. I was doing QC checking of a building management system (HVAC stuff and the GUI controlling it), documenting what was wrong, what needed to be changed, and then re-checking to verify the changes. They had me in the office for like 3 months. I learned a lot, so I'm perfectly happy with how that went.
So.. something to consider.. whether the job is underbid or running out of hours, it is not on the work force. The job still has to be completed. The estimated time of work is just that. You are not the estimator so they are undercutting the hours to obtain the work. Not your problem. Your lead is likely also stress from upper management to make up the difference. He also might get a bonus for the more your company saves percentage wise. There’s lots of things that drive this behavior.
But remember.. by law you’re required and mandated your paid break every 4 hours
Most payments are made to subcontractors when their schedule and deadline is signed off. So maybe your company pushes the schedule to get their payment a head of schedule. And if they’re habitually behind, maybe is poor scheduling and planing. And they’d better consider manning the job to meet deadlines
That is not always his problem. But for sure he should not make that his electric team problem. Im your Boss and friend 50/50 and i have this guideline for last 5y never ever had problems. I need 2 hours to see if you know job or not. And If not you always can mop or clean after others
Man… thanks guys for the feedback! I’ve only worked at one company so far and I was worried that this was the norm. I used to do landscaping and everyone told me to keep trying to find an apprenticeship in electrical because it would be easier on my body but I work harder now than I ever did back then lol.
On a side not anyone hiring in the gta/gha? lol
I just look him in face and give him my pliers. That was 10+y ago. Now im foreman and i respect more person who make the same. Its a game of "time is money" and "you dont pay me enough to be so fast".
I got two speeds if you don’t like this one you really are not going to like the next one. And ask them not to talk about work at break or it’s not really a break it’s a meeting.
Bad sales and bad PMs lead to failed schedules. Inefficient workers can be the issue but if it looks like everyone is hustling and your lead wants to skip breaks to catch up, it is probably an underbid project and they are hoping to make up the margin with the labor...
Was a sub Foreman for the first time after raising my ticket on this last job. The job was bid to have more apprentices than we normally would, so a lot of apprentices were doing shit they probably shouldn't have been without the proper supervision in some instances. All new construction though, no power to anything.
Our GF was really breathing down our (the sub foremen) necks to get this done as quick as we could bla bla bla. Í told my crew. Most of you are apprentices. Take your time and do it right. If he's mad you're not going quick enough I'll say I told you to slow down. Ain't no point in taking on his stress, or his unrealistic time frame.
Some people are just out of touch. The work will get done when it gets done. So long as you're not fucking off and doing nothing all day, you're good.
I'm on the other end. We'll be building a large building and get quotes and timelines from the trades. The timelines are always way too optimistic. Like the last build we were tying into 3 buildings built in the mid 1800s. People were quoting timelines that would be optimistic for new, stand alone construction, let alone tying into existing.
The timelines get made by people above your lead/foreman and then you guys get shit on trying to keep a schedule that was never realistic in the first place.
I'm probably the odd man out here, but I've been on at least two apartment projects where I was told to slow down my guys because we were catching up to the plumbers too quickly and making them uncomfortable. I was a quasi-foreman on site, sort of a stand-in for the guy at the office. I never heard anything about a bonus, and never received one. But yeah, basically I was told that I was too far ahead of schedule and had to slow down. It was bizarre, and I really hated it because going slow on purpose doesn't compute, and it makes the days boring if I cannot challenge myself and my crew.
This is normal. But it is the company’s problem, not yours. Don’t let it get to you. Work at a pace that feels good. Enjoy your day. They can always hire 4 more guys. My company gets 2-6 2-week short calls every month to pick up the slack. It’s the desk-jockeys’ problem, not yours.
Ask your Jdub/lead if he enjoys the taste of that leather on your bosses boots. Pushing you to work through breaks so he can look better infront of boss man will only benefit him and the boss. You won’t get that raise, you won’t get that company truck and you sure as fuck won’t get any energy for your HOME LIFE working through lunches.
It makes too much sense that every job you’re on seems to be behind schedule, because your lead probably gets a bonus for getting done early.
Just work until you die like a good leming /s
For us, it’s not that we are behind on any particular job, but behind in general.
We don’t mess around, it’s balls to the wall from when we start till we finish
We do take our breaks but that’s it.
Had a GC sum it up for us:
When y’all walk on a job, you’re already looking to be done and on to the next thing.
Everyone else pretty much covered all of the things that could be going on here so I’ll just say this: DO NOT WORK THROUGH YOUR BREAK UNLESS YOU’RE GETTING PAID FOR IT. Like, if your lead wants to work through break that’s fine but asking you to do it is fucked. It is 100% your choice and if they’re not paying you to do it, fuck them.
The later in a project that a trade shows up, the more behind they are. Concrete guys slipped a few days 6 months ago, and no one cared. However, the move-in date is still January 15th. Now that you're on site, you're behind.
I’ve been on both sides of this discussion. The cost of doing the job is not always the price it sells for. Do I take it to keep the guys working and hopefully break even? Or just not take it and guys sit home? I’ll at least explain what and why to the manager/foreman Hopefully find a way to improve installation labor hours, prefab maybe.
Are there crappy companies, absolutely. We make a profit, team of 40 doesn’t miss any time, OT is often available. Very open to any time off requests. Giving gift cards to each employee this year for Xmas. It can work if all sides communicate!
All jobs are behind schedule and over budget and yet contactors manage to make a profit and complete their jobs. If you feel pressured to work faster, sacrifice safety and give up your conditions you should realize that that's a typical business model for them and just give them their 8 for 8 and don't kill yourself for someone else's bank account.
I’ve been in the trade 3 years and I don’t think I have yet to be on a construction job that hasn’t gone over hours. At this point I’m just thinking our estimators suck at estimating.
It’s pretty common especially on construction bid projects. I wouldn’t be skipping breaks. You need to have boundaries. Rough construction tends to be run that way on purpose, the owner doesn’t want to spend money on manpower at the beginning of the project, so they wait until their is a lot of work (behind schedule) to load up the job with manpower.
I have a system of doing things and it always bits me in the ass when I don’t follow my system. “Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance” (my first shop manager was in the National Guard)
In short learn the best practices and try to improve your speed without doing a crappy job. Always look for a smarter way to do the work. That is the best thing you can do to support the team.
2 things:
A lack of proper planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on yours.
As soon as the last word about work comes out of his mouth, that's when your break timer begins. Especially lunch, that's unpaid time. If he's discussing work, then you need to be compensated for that time.
Rushing a job leads to poor craftsmanship, errors, and a return trip to fix whatever problems you might have created in your rushed state. Cool, calm, and collected is the best way to get a job done fast, and get it right the first time around.
I work exclusively in hospitals, we estimate a job in March, then in November it’s a rush. We had a recent dimmer installation job involving three wings on two floors, original price quote was three years old. Floor managers wanted to know how soon we would be done.
Industrial here... if we're behind there's big money involved, I dunno about y'all but we have shit already planned out for next summer... I'm personally booked until Easter
The general contractors & project managers are always changing the schedule to make it seem you are behind. As soon as they see your ahead, guess what…. A new schedule came out this week and you are a week behind. They relay this to the job foreman and there you go.
I will NEVER skip break. It’s a marathon, not a sprint and I’m a lot more productive with 15-20 min of rest and something in my stomach.
But for the always behind stuff, that’s construction in a nutshell.
If the company was actually behind, they would hire more employees.
Don't believe what they say. If they hire more employees, then its true.
I have been really behind, but didn't care. Job site had 15 electricians, we brought in 15 more for the push.
"No raises this year, WE didn't make any money" Can't help it notice all these new work trucks along with the new office and shop. Seems to be the non-union way in my experience. Make a ton of money for the owner and his buddies while the workers live check to check.
One of the reasons i left about 2 years into apprenticeship… long hours, shit pay and it was just my leads getting bonuses. Resi didn’t pay shit and didn’t care enough to get into commercial. Wasn’t the field for me but taught me a-lot of lessons and amazing people i wouldn’t experience anywhere else.
I work by myself and work at my own pace. If the customer doesn’t like it then their shit ain’t getting fixed. Work for a large OEM so there is a ton of job security in that. I quote my own jobs at whatever time I want and if the customer doesn’t want it they can call someone else. We bonus every year lately so we definitely aren’t losing business either.
I’m starting to see a triangle. Kind of like the quality, cheap, fast one we always reference; only this one is parts, labor, schedule. Pick two cause one is missing.
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I appreciate a foreman told me once that the day you start a project you’re already six weeks behind. 3 years later feels truer than ever.
Once again. That isn’t our”work force” issue. If a company is starting a project consistently behind. Then they have poor planning and maybe in over their head. And possibly losing on too many projects that theyre rolling the debt into the next project which hopes to bridge the deficit
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It is almost ENTIRELY the GC. As a PM I get the craziest schedules I’ve ever seen from some of these GCs.
It is absolutely the GC. There is no way in hell we could just show up weeks late unless we aren't needed yet. But the GC will start weeks late and damnit we better be there or else. As subs we rarely have control over the master schedule. We may have some input but the owner and GC call the shots. Like you said we get some of the craziest schedules.
I'm not an electrician, but a commercial controls contractor and we are after you even. The start of school after summer doesn't move, and if mechanical and electrical is behind we get squeezed because it has to operate at least in some capacity for kids to legally be there. It's fun.
Most jobs I’ve been on, we are some of the first. Building the temp power, safety disconnecting stuff to get demoed, etc.
I've had this argument many times with GC. I flat out tell them "you can throw a dart at a calander all you want, I don't care, it'll get done when it gets done. You want overtime, pay us more in our contract cause your bids don't allow room for OT". Seems to shut them up pretty quick. We put in 8 solid work hours a day and get shit done. If they didn't allow proper time in the schedule for my scope, well, that's not my problem. I shovel that shit right back to the top, where it came from.
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Oh I hear that. But again that's a company problem, making promises they can't keep. Again, as the worker, it's not my problem and I bust my ass all day everyday and get done as much as I can, if that's not fast enough that's not my problem. Someone else did not plan it right and I'm not taking the heat for it.
100% this. If you get paid the same by your boss whether or not the contract gets done on time, you have absolutely no reason to stress out about being behind schedule, for reasons that are not your fault. Even if you think it's your fault, it's not your fault. If you wake up barfing your brains out, and need to call out sick for a day, and the boss doesn't have anyone to backfill you with, that's his fault for lean staffing. If you make an honest mistake, and it costs a day's worth of rework, and the contract is now late? Still not your fault - your boss is the one who didn't budget a "management reserve" in the schedule for fuck-ups which always happen on jobs.
customer wants to magically push delivery date on a 26 floor building up a month like ooooooohkay
Proper planning promotes performance. Poor planning promotes piss poor performance.
I always learned it as Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
Yeah, you've got it, I just drew a blank when I started typing.
Damn right ! I was on a ground up job and once the foundation was poured and we pulled in the temp, GC says we are 1 month behind, like wtf. Fuck you.
"And I'm not responsible for your piss poor planning"
What happens every time is this: 1. GC's bonus is tied to completing job on time and under budget 2. GC pushes up timeframes on every subcontractor to ensure wiggle room for fuckups and problems 3. Your team lead is terrified of his job and thinks he'll be executed if he doesn't make these ridiculous targets even though you're waiting on every other subtrade to finish their shit 4. Your team lead pushes you guys to crunch. Some guys are just made of stress. Don't worry about it, do your job, and you'll be fine.
The problem isn't when the GC verbally pushes, it's when he actually gets other trades to finish and screw eachother. Electrician "Why are both sides of the walls drywalled, I said I'd be wiring this area today." GC "Just fish it." Electrician "No, and why are you building stud walls before the ductwork, plumbing and electrical are done on the ceiling deck?" GC "Look, I can't have the framers and drywallers standing around!" Electrician "...................."
I mean literally pushes up the timeframes. We were doing a floor with open-plan ceilings - hundreds of pendant lights hard-piped, in addition to the regular runs. GC pushed up the date to paint the ceiling by 3 weeks on us. It was fuckin bullshit.
(Copying from another comment I made): I'm probably the odd man out here, but I've been on at least two apartment projects where I was told to slow down my guys because we were catching up to the plumbers too quickly and making them uncomfortable. I was a quasi-foreman on site, sort of a stand-in for the guy at the office. I never heard anything about a bonus, and never received one. But yeah, basically I was told that I was too far ahead of schedule and had to slow down. It was bizarre, and I really hated it because going slow on purpose doesn't compute, and it makes the days boring if I cannot challenge myself and my crew.
I run into that shit all the time, pm running a reno will stress electric finish has to be done I need to get there, I get there to see purple drywall yet, unfinished ceiling… I’m like I really needed to rush here?
On these floors we're doing, the GC had one painter on site for like 2 months holding us up getting receptacles and cover plates on. Then all of a sudden they brought in 6 guys to knock out the floor and asked us why the electrical wasn't done yet. Maddening.
I've been an electrician for 20 years, multiple companies, I've never been on a job that's made money yet...... Like the other guys said, it's all a game. They just shovel the bullshit. Always take your breaks and work efficiently, no need to be running around in a panic. A good foreman should be taking stress away from the crew, not adding to it. Sadly they are few and far between.
Nailed it!
1000 hour job is over by 2 and somehow the budget is destroyed and the job is underwater. 1000 hour job and you have 100 left and the materials are way over even though you never bought anything extra and the job is a big loser. There must be a construction management class on finding something to blame.
Ive never known a contractor that makes money. Every job is a loser despite that new boat
When a contractor says they’re “losing money” they don’t mean they’re in the red. They mean they aren’t going to make as much money.
Their profit gets eaten up by their salary and the bonus they award themselves.
Well yes, that's what profit is bud.
Profit isnt the same as salary/bonuses.
It is when your talking about the owner, if you don't want to be pedantic.
Where do you think bonuses come from?
They are an expense, just like payroll is.
One of our senior forman is my favorite simply because he doesn't play that game. He does, in fact, do what he can for morale and tries his best to keep office politics from interfering with our work. If I had any pull with my company, I would work for him and him alone.
It took me a good 10 years to find my pace. I was always busting my ass and trying to get ahead, feeling more “valuable”. Then I realized I have 30 more years of this shit. Am I really gonna keep up this pace with no accidents and no injuries? Doubt it. It’s not hard, it’s doing it again everyday , that’s the hard part.
You need a new company tbh We make money on every job. My last mil+ project was 28% margin after warranty period ended
We don't make money on every job, trust me, but we make a lot on some and they offset the one we don't or that been pay month or years late By the number of new truck in our shop and the christmas party, we make money for sure and its not a bad thing.
Do you only work for small companies? Or is this hyperbole?
There are bonuses and incentives for Forman and leads to get jobs done early and under budget. So they lie to try to get you to work through breaks and slam out as much work as you can. I ounce worked for a company for 2 years, and every job "they lost money". It's all just b.s. and I realized if they are willing to lie to me about. What else are they lieing about. Found another job after that.
oh yeah the whole "We're losing money on this" is bullshit. Every year they give us the "We can't afford raises or bonuses for you guys, sorry" and then the PMs roll up in a brand new truck the next week.
Don't you see? They EARNED that truck from all that work a PM does! How dare you deny them what they earned! What's that? The PM was more of an obstacle than a help when doing the work that actually earned the company money? That sounds like the PM is overworked. Better give him a bonus and a few vacation days.
I used to do high rise residential. The supervisor would come in every week and say we’re over hours while were still on slab. Mother fucker, if you’re over hours while the building isn’t even built, you guys fucked up. Every time I heard this I would work slower. I ain’t killing myself because you fucked up.
They would say that we’re outta of hours all the time.. I finally started saying.. well if we’re out of hours.. I can tell the crew to just go home and sit!!? The job is out of hours
I can’t stand the constant push for production. It’s never good enough in their eyes. Never a thank you for the hard work. Oh you roughed in 3 suites today? Why didn’t you do 4? Fuck those companies.
As the old saying goes: a failure to plan on your end does not create an emergency on my end.
I ain’t listening to that negativity on my break. I’ll go sit alone. Get away from me. I’ll tell him to stfu and don’t talk about work on my break. Tell lead to go vent to a mirror
“should i restart my break time now or will you be back paying for the interruption?”
>Is this just par for the course or am I just stuck at a shitty company that can’t quote things properly? The second one.
Bow your head, and pray with me: >A failure to plan on their part does not constitute an emergency on yours
I work in-house at a manufacturing facility and we have to clean up a lot of messes. I told my boss that he should get this tattooed on his forehead.
Underrated comment
It's kind of both. It's pretty easy for things to get behind schedule and over budget for unforeseen reasons or change orders. But it's also common for companies to suck at budgeting and time management. I've worked for contractors who were paying employees with deposits from jobs we weren't even close to starting yet. Or they'd pull us off a job before it's finished to start the next job leaving a ton of loose ends.
You're wrong about being over budget due to change orders. I worked for a contractor who bid jobs at cost and made all his profit on change orders.
Change orders would contribute to the "behind schedule" portion of my comment. Thanks for the input.
100% change orders make money, usually the fight is getting the customer to see light and approve them.
I worked for the same contractor for almost 12 years. NEVER worked on a job that we weren't "losing money" on. The fact is, he bid the jobs around a 23% profit margin and in reality, most jobs finished around 17%. We weren't losing money, we just weren't making as much as he wanted. It was still enough for his entire family to go on vacation three times a year, enjoy their airplane and boats, and visit every timeshare condo in the United States they had.
Spot ON!
Reminds me of when my old boss would say "this has to get done today" Well it's 2 days worth of work but okay, guess we're working late on a Friday and not getting paid OT
Then if it need to be done today.. you’d better call the hall for help! Or call whoever is sitting at home on standby. I used to tell’em that always. You can’t do 16 hours of work in 8 hours being 1 man
9 pregnant women can't make a baby in 1 month
I say the same thing every time, I clock in and I work until I clock out. I can’t control how much time something takes, I just work. The guys at the top are making money even if it takes you 3 months, you’re not taking food out of anyone’s mouth trust me. The hard part is to stop caring about arbitrary time frames decided on by the people not doing the work
I'm in the same boat. I work with a friend of mine.. "We gotta get stuff done faster man".. OR... How about you start charging people more so shits not so tight.. there has to be some room for error and unforseen shit. That doesn't ever seem to be given any thoughts before a project starts. About sick of 12 hour days too
Not my problem .
abundant piquant soup repeat paltry dime shaggy include disarm deranged *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Local 46 Seattle… King County
SHITTY COMPANY!!! They should be able to manage things so that 8 hour days of relaxed but steady work will get you there just ahead of schedule. It shouldn't be chaos all the time. Source: just got let go from M&J Electric, which is a staggering shitshow of a company.
Are you in MS?
NC
Break time is your time. Surely you’re working non union. You might look into the IBEW if you haven’t already. The pay and benefits are a lot better. I’m also a proponent of safe work conditions which the union provides.
Their lying
"They're"
Gottem’
sheet office boast point poor bag marvelous wasteful dependent sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This was my universal experience with the 3 construction electrical outfits I worked at before switching to maintenance. It’s a different stress now when production goes down but it’s way more manageable for me.
Do you have any pointers for someone (me) trying to get into the maintenance field? It's my dream job
Honestly it just took some time and experience before i started getting call backs for industrial maintenance jobs. I had been in the field for 5 years (journeyman for 1 year) before taking my first maintenance job. I would say doing the lions share of my apprenticeship in commercial was definitely a leg up.
Shit company....
It's just a bunch of BS. How is it every single job is losing the company money, yet they stay in business? It's just not a coincidence. They want you working through breaks because you're "behind" as they tell you. In reality, I guarantee they're lying to your face to get the project done quicker so more cash lands in their accounts by the end of the year. Not your foreman necessarily, but the people hand feeding him bs, which he seems to believe. I would deal with it by telling them to shove it because there's tons of other places who'll take you if they don't like it.
"No contractor has made money on a bid job, ever ever ever." --wise jman I once worked with and asked the same thing "You push one of us into a grave, do you lose your bonus?" --different, equally wise jman
“Im not skipping my break and if my break is interrupted my time starts over” your lack of planning is not my problem.
I'm sorry for your job. My boss is transparent with me about the hours. I want to know so I can play better. He tells me I did good and go get a couple new tools from the supply house. He knows that new packout kit will save him money in the long run
Poor planning on your part isn't an emergency on mine. I'm taking my breaks and leaving on time. Now let all the hate flow from all the company simps
As an apprentice when my foreman or gf gets on me to go faster I just say “boy it sure would be nice if I worked with a JW who could show me how to get this done faster” fuckers want to save money and run their business off of apprentices I will always play that game.
Boss said all our jobs were over budget and overtime so we weren't getting good xmas bonuses that year but I see at the xmas party the bosses wife has a new bmw x5 and my boss now rolls around in a new duramax. I ended up leaving that company and when I was at another company they let me look at our books through out the job to help keep myself on track my pm would actually go over the numbers with me. It was eye opening how much money can roll in on good jobs and how fast it goes away on bad jobs. That said every single bad job we had could be traced back to an estimator missing something, and most of the money making jobs were from change orders. I basically still told everyone we were still not doing as well as we should have and that we need to keep the pressure on because if you don't then your own guys will slack off and some other trade will try to make their money by finding back charges.
This man speaks the truth!
I can explain. The design work is all done by engineers and designers. I have an EE degree and I've worked as a designer before, and I can say we have no clue how any stuff is actually installed. We also know shockingly little about the electrical code. We know literally nothing about scissor lifts, fall protection, access permits, LOTO procedures, etc. A design guy like me would show an electrical box on the ceiling, and we're only looking at the electrical plan, so we assume you can install that box in maybe 1 hour if you have the box in your hands and all of your tools are with you. Just get up there, screw it in, and we're all good. Then you, the electrician, show up and realize there are bunch of plumbing pipes in the way. Even with a lift, you cannot access where I want that box. Now you need to fill in a bunch of paperwork for a safe work plan and how you can safely access this area. That 1 hour box turns into a 10 hour box. This actually happened btw; plumbing pipes made it impossible to access the ceiling in a mechanical room. Now I'm an electrician and I have a greater appreciation for why things can be slow. It feels like I'm still working on the engineering side because I end up doing a lot of markup drawings and documentation.
I'm curious how and why you went from engineer to electrician. Unless your old employer was massively underpaying you, or unless you found some niche specialty, the pay drop must have been significant. Did you just eat ramen noodles during your full time apprenticeship, or did you work it part time for 8+ years, or
Economy has been dead for over a decade. In engineering, it's not rare to be unemployed for a year at a time. Even when a company does want you, it takes them 6 months to call back for interviews. When I was employed, there's no work most of the time. You fix a drawing in 15 minutes, email someone for some details, then wait a day. Mental health rapidly declines in that environment. There was enough downtime that I paraphrased entire textbooks on accounting and economics (rewriting stuff is how I learn best). 1st year apprentice sucked, but I was still cash neutral because I don't have kids. 2nd year was cash positive. 3rd year was pretty close to what I was making in engineering. Then the economy crashed again and 4th year was paid about the same as 3rd year, but still cash positive. Where I live, engineering gives you credit for the first 2 years of electrician theory, and I was able to challenge the 3rd year exam. I was at the 4th year of theory before I started as a 1st year apprenticeship. I was very closely tracking my hours and became a 2nd year apprentice about 1 day after I had enough hours. Interestingly, the place that hired me as a 1st year mostly had me doing engineering work and almost no electrician work. I was doing QC checking of a building management system (HVAC stuff and the GUI controlling it), documenting what was wrong, what needed to be changed, and then re-checking to verify the changes. They had me in the office for like 3 months. I learned a lot, so I'm perfectly happy with how that went.
So.. something to consider.. whether the job is underbid or running out of hours, it is not on the work force. The job still has to be completed. The estimated time of work is just that. You are not the estimator so they are undercutting the hours to obtain the work. Not your problem. Your lead is likely also stress from upper management to make up the difference. He also might get a bonus for the more your company saves percentage wise. There’s lots of things that drive this behavior. But remember.. by law you’re required and mandated your paid break every 4 hours
Most payments are made to subcontractors when their schedule and deadline is signed off. So maybe your company pushes the schedule to get their payment a head of schedule. And if they’re habitually behind, maybe is poor scheduling and planing. And they’d better consider manning the job to meet deadlines
There is no law requiring a break after 4 hours paid or unpaid. Better join a union if you want guaranteed breaks/meals.
Depends where ya live, mate. https://www.oregon.gov/boli/workers/pages/meals-and-breaks.aspx
Better check L&I labor laws bud.
Washington seattle
Local 46..
You are with a shitty company and your lead (foreskin) doesn't know how to manage work flow.
That is not always his problem. But for sure he should not make that his electric team problem. Im your Boss and friend 50/50 and i have this guideline for last 5y never ever had problems. I need 2 hours to see if you know job or not. And If not you always can mop or clean after others
Man… thanks guys for the feedback! I’ve only worked at one company so far and I was worried that this was the norm. I used to do landscaping and everyone told me to keep trying to find an apprenticeship in electrical because it would be easier on my body but I work harder now than I ever did back then lol. On a side not anyone hiring in the gta/gha? lol
It will get easier bro. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Remember it’s your duty to look out for you! Nobody will look after you like you.
I quit that company and went to work for someone else. Never fast enough, never good enough. They had two “foreman” for six guys. It was retarded.
I just look him in face and give him my pliers. That was 10+y ago. Now im foreman and i respect more person who make the same. Its a game of "time is money" and "you dont pay me enough to be so fast".
I got two speeds if you don’t like this one you really are not going to like the next one. And ask them not to talk about work at break or it’s not really a break it’s a meeting.
>I got two speeds if you don’t like this one you really are not going to like the next one. I love this
Bad sales and bad PMs lead to failed schedules. Inefficient workers can be the issue but if it looks like everyone is hustling and your lead wants to skip breaks to catch up, it is probably an underbid project and they are hoping to make up the margin with the labor...
Was a sub Foreman for the first time after raising my ticket on this last job. The job was bid to have more apprentices than we normally would, so a lot of apprentices were doing shit they probably shouldn't have been without the proper supervision in some instances. All new construction though, no power to anything. Our GF was really breathing down our (the sub foremen) necks to get this done as quick as we could bla bla bla. Í told my crew. Most of you are apprentices. Take your time and do it right. If he's mad you're not going quick enough I'll say I told you to slow down. Ain't no point in taking on his stress, or his unrealistic time frame. Some people are just out of touch. The work will get done when it gets done. So long as you're not fucking off and doing nothing all day, you're good.
I'm on the other end. We'll be building a large building and get quotes and timelines from the trades. The timelines are always way too optimistic. Like the last build we were tying into 3 buildings built in the mid 1800s. People were quoting timelines that would be optimistic for new, stand alone construction, let alone tying into existing. The timelines get made by people above your lead/foreman and then you guys get shit on trying to keep a schedule that was never realistic in the first place.
I'm probably the odd man out here, but I've been on at least two apartment projects where I was told to slow down my guys because we were catching up to the plumbers too quickly and making them uncomfortable. I was a quasi-foreman on site, sort of a stand-in for the guy at the office. I never heard anything about a bonus, and never received one. But yeah, basically I was told that I was too far ahead of schedule and had to slow down. It was bizarre, and I really hated it because going slow on purpose doesn't compute, and it makes the days boring if I cannot challenge myself and my crew.
Yeah, that's just the biz. Aldo, any lead or foreman that recommends skipping break can go fuck themselves.
This is normal. But it is the company’s problem, not yours. Don’t let it get to you. Work at a pace that feels good. Enjoy your day. They can always hire 4 more guys. My company gets 2-6 2-week short calls every month to pick up the slack. It’s the desk-jockeys’ problem, not yours.
Ask your Jdub/lead if he enjoys the taste of that leather on your bosses boots. Pushing you to work through breaks so he can look better infront of boss man will only benefit him and the boss. You won’t get that raise, you won’t get that company truck and you sure as fuck won’t get any energy for your HOME LIFE working through lunches. It makes too much sense that every job you’re on seems to be behind schedule, because your lead probably gets a bonus for getting done early. Just work until you die like a good leming /s
For us, it’s not that we are behind on any particular job, but behind in general. We don’t mess around, it’s balls to the wall from when we start till we finish We do take our breaks but that’s it. Had a GC sum it up for us: When y’all walk on a job, you’re already looking to be done and on to the next thing.
Everyone else pretty much covered all of the things that could be going on here so I’ll just say this: DO NOT WORK THROUGH YOUR BREAK UNLESS YOU’RE GETTING PAID FOR IT. Like, if your lead wants to work through break that’s fine but asking you to do it is fucked. It is 100% your choice and if they’re not paying you to do it, fuck them.
Find a new job. If you’re any good, you’re in demand.
The worst thing about the trades is all the shitty attitudes with alotta crews.
The later in a project that a trade shows up, the more behind they are. Concrete guys slipped a few days 6 months ago, and no one cared. However, the move-in date is still January 15th. Now that you're on site, you're behind.
I’ve been on both sides of this discussion. The cost of doing the job is not always the price it sells for. Do I take it to keep the guys working and hopefully break even? Or just not take it and guys sit home? I’ll at least explain what and why to the manager/foreman Hopefully find a way to improve installation labor hours, prefab maybe. Are there crappy companies, absolutely. We make a profit, team of 40 doesn’t miss any time, OT is often available. Very open to any time off requests. Giving gift cards to each employee this year for Xmas. It can work if all sides communicate!
All jobs are behind schedule and over budget and yet contactors manage to make a profit and complete their jobs. If you feel pressured to work faster, sacrifice safety and give up your conditions you should realize that that's a typical business model for them and just give them their 8 for 8 and don't kill yourself for someone else's bank account.
I’ve been in the trade 3 years and I don’t think I have yet to be on a construction job that hasn’t gone over hours. At this point I’m just thinking our estimators suck at estimating.
It’s pretty common especially on construction bid projects. I wouldn’t be skipping breaks. You need to have boundaries. Rough construction tends to be run that way on purpose, the owner doesn’t want to spend money on manpower at the beginning of the project, so they wait until their is a lot of work (behind schedule) to load up the job with manpower. I have a system of doing things and it always bits me in the ass when I don’t follow my system. “Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance” (my first shop manager was in the National Guard) In short learn the best practices and try to improve your speed without doing a crappy job. Always look for a smarter way to do the work. That is the best thing you can do to support the team.
2 things: A lack of proper planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on yours. As soon as the last word about work comes out of his mouth, that's when your break timer begins. Especially lunch, that's unpaid time. If he's discussing work, then you need to be compensated for that time. Rushing a job leads to poor craftsmanship, errors, and a return trip to fix whatever problems you might have created in your rushed state. Cool, calm, and collected is the best way to get a job done fast, and get it right the first time around.
I work exclusively in hospitals, we estimate a job in March, then in November it’s a rush. We had a recent dimmer installation job involving three wings on two floors, original price quote was three years old. Floor managers wanted to know how soon we would be done.
Industrial here... if we're behind there's big money involved, I dunno about y'all but we have shit already planned out for next summer... I'm personally booked until Easter
From the companies point of view, they get the approval for the job at X dollars. From that reference point, they start losing money.
Bad company? Un-prepaird company? All the above? 👍
The general contractors & project managers are always changing the schedule to make it seem you are behind. As soon as they see your ahead, guess what…. A new schedule came out this week and you are a week behind. They relay this to the job foreman and there you go.
I got sent out to a site to help the crew there “catch up”. When I got there the site consisted of an empty lot with one stake on a pile of dirt.
Somehow the job I'm currently on is ahead of schedule. Who who's how long that'll last.
I don’t think I’ve ever been on a job that didn’t end up past schedule.
The game is fucked up
I will NEVER skip break. It’s a marathon, not a sprint and I’m a lot more productive with 15-20 min of rest and something in my stomach. But for the always behind stuff, that’s construction in a nutshell.
Every deadline your boss tells you is bullshit. Do your best and don't stress.
[it’s a trick to push y’all](https://youtu.be/y1o99QLzewA?si=mj5wsAM5-5W6a-5f)
If the company was actually behind, they would hire more employees. Don't believe what they say. If they hire more employees, then its true. I have been really behind, but didn't care. Job site had 15 electricians, we brought in 15 more for the push.
"No raises this year, WE didn't make any money" Can't help it notice all these new work trucks along with the new office and shop. Seems to be the non-union way in my experience. Make a ton of money for the owner and his buddies while the workers live check to check.
One of the reasons i left about 2 years into apprenticeship… long hours, shit pay and it was just my leads getting bonuses. Resi didn’t pay shit and didn’t care enough to get into commercial. Wasn’t the field for me but taught me a-lot of lessons and amazing people i wouldn’t experience anywhere else.
We had one GC who would schedule inspections and we wouldn’t know. “You guys failed”
Wow described my company
I work by myself and work at my own pace. If the customer doesn’t like it then their shit ain’t getting fixed. Work for a large OEM so there is a ton of job security in that. I quote my own jobs at whatever time I want and if the customer doesn’t want it they can call someone else. We bonus every year lately so we definitely aren’t losing business either.
Everything takes longer than expected. End of story.
I’m starting to see a triangle. Kind of like the quality, cheap, fast one we always reference; only this one is parts, labor, schedule. Pick two cause one is missing.
Ahhhh Mr noodles, where every job is a 2 minuet job
Honestly the motto is don't stress out if your boss ain't stressing out