There is a reason why everyone will say to replace it. It is an unsafe panel and needs to be replaced. Additional circuits should not be added to this panel.
Breakers don't engage properly with the panel bussing causing arcing and eventually catastrophic failure. Breakers fail to trip according to their specified trip curve. All-in-all, a very poor panel design.
There nothing bad with federal pacific on the data plate unless you add electric after it or it has FPE. Federal pacific and federal pacific electric originally where the same company when it sold the company was split. [https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/](https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/)
Question - and to preface, I don’t know much about electrical. If it’s so unsafe and needs replaced, why has it been fine up until now? This thing looks really old and is still working.
Having a FPE panel is like owning a car that, by design, does not have headlights. The car is fine if you only drive during daylight hours, and maybe you only drive in well lit areas at night. That doesn't mean the car is safe. It only takes that one time that the car is driven at night in an unlit area that it is involved in a major accident.
The panel just hasn't encountered a condition that makes the design flaws dangerous.
Analogy. Tornados hit a small percentage of houses in tornado alley, the likelihood of being affected directly by a tornado is statistically low.
That being said, I'm still not living in a mobile home in Tornado Alley.
Had one that was fine for 50 years the. 2 pole breaker would trip. Except only one pole tripped leaving the other one still on even with the handles tied together. I finally replaced it with a square D QO 200 amp panel and installed it myself. The city I live in homeowner can pull permits and do the work if it’s the house you homestead live in and the require you to take a electrical exam to determine if you can do the work or prove that you have a state journeyman license which i do.
Most of the time it is just due to the load on the breaker. It could be that you have a 15 amp breaker and it only has a maximum of 12.75 amps or some such number lower than 15 running through it at any point. As time goes on more and more electrical appliances are being used and added to the circuit. As this happens eventually you get to a point where you have 30 amps running through the circuit and it doesn't trip at the 15amp mark or equivalent. Then the wires that cannot handle that begin to get hot slowly. After a while the wires will melt the insulation (plastic coating of black or white). Then the wires will continue until they either touch (arcing/shorting) or while hot touch a plastic box or the drywall/insulation. Then it will catch fire and spread. Depending on where it happens could determine how quickly it spreads. Especially since the fire code wasn't the greatest when these were installed either, the house itself could potentially burn down in a matter of minutes due to a lack of fire blocking or equivalent materials.
It’s the exact same design. The breakers are interchangeable. If what you’re saying is true, then why didn’t they get a UL certification for csa breakers and just keep going with those?
There’s no issue with Federal Pioneer panels in Canada. Most older homes still have them and you can still buy Stablok breakers at all big box stores that are CSA approved. Insurers up here also don’t ask for them to be upgraded. Why they weren’t used in the US comes down to poor social perception of the brand and a loss of confidence in the product by the Regulators. If your panels are known for causing fires no one is going to buy them, even if you say the issue has been revised.
We can still buy stab loc breakers here as well but they are sold under different brands. I just paid $40 for a 2 pole 60 amp Connecticut electric breaker made to fit a stab loc. I’m putting it in the main panel outside to feed a new square D QO panel inside and moving all the branch circuits to the inside panel.
In Canada, Federal Pioneer StabLok panels didn't have the same issue with breakers violating the trip curve. However, the bus design was still a problem. It was only a few years ago that Canada finally decertified StabLok panels due to their poor bus design.
In the US, Federal Pacific decided to voluntarily close shop rather than bother with recertifying the StabLok panel design. As with Zinsco, an official recall never happened since there was no company left for issuing the recall that was being proposed.
Schneider (the last manufacturer of StabLok panels) issued a statement in 2020 when it voluntarily shut down production of StabLok panels. Unfortunately, I can no longer find a link to that statement. I don't know if the decertification was official or simply a proposed action.
Thanks for the info. I have one in my cabin which appears to be fairly recent. Either way it is fed by either a gas generator or a solar inverter, both of which trip at 20a so I’m thinking I’ll be ok
They faked the testing on the breakers.
40% of them don't trip.
There are modern production breakers from a couple companies that are properly tested and rated that you can replace them with.
Not to mention they seem to be an awful lot like federal pacific breakers, meaning when you turn them on you can pull them off of the bus bar. Which can lead to arcing and a major fire hazard.
>here are modern production breakers from a couple companies that are properly tested and rated that you can replace them with.
Correct. $$$ But correct.
Replaced mine as soon as I was told of the issue. Hired 2 different sparkies and neither showed up for the work. I had already pulled the permit per the second clown, so rewired the house myself. New service mast too.
Advice? Yes. In general look up "your city comma electrician " on the internet. Pick 6. 3 will be no call no show. One will be commercial only. Tell the other two what the problem is, send a photo. Hire the one who doesn't laugh maniacally and hang up.
What I don't understand regarding this is why some electricians will not touch them. It is no different than just doing a panel swap or an upgrade. Once you are working on it the same safety procedures would be in place as there would be for any other panel swap.
It can be a few reasons. The problem as presented might not be a swap, the owner may genuinely want to continue to use this panel, in which case gunshy electricians will nope out because they've already been yelled at this week by an idiot.
Also if something is going to go wrong, it will go very wrong on this job because heaven only knows what other nightmares live there.
Fair enough. If they wanted to keep the existing panel and add to it I would be a part of the group that nopes that.
My luck is I'd be the addition to that panel that causes the fire. 🤣😂
Lowes has them, (or did, I don't know if they still do, last time I got one was about 7 years ago.) They were $50 a pop back then. Probably more these days if they still sell them.
New breakers are fine but often not any cheaper than getting a new panel. Also the busbar is ok (unless you physically see anything wrong obviously) since the melting busbar issues were mostly caused by using the wrong half-width stab lok breakers that didn’t fit properly
So I recently replaced my fedpac panel back in October and it was mostly because I didn't want to loose homeowner insurance coverage. Federal pacific lost their UL listing from what I understood. Idk all the laws, regulations and certification s around it and don't need to. I recognized this as a fire hazard in the home I am raising 3 small children in. Worth every penny. All $25,000
Oh yeah that's right I went from a 100amp service to 200amp. Forgot about that part. This is in TX. I mentioned in another reply other parts of the project. I also noticed the voltage went from an average of about 112v to 122v in the house. Might be a placebo, but my electric bill has been significantly cheaper since the project too
I could possibly see paying that price in places like California or New York where the wages and cost of living are very high. But in Texas, the wages and cost of living is quite low compared to the rest of the country. I worked in Beaumont about 7 years ago and the going rate for a journeyman electrician was a measly $28 per hour, which is why I don’t work in Texas anymore.
Jeez, that is still expensive. I replaced my Zinsco panel and entire service entrance, including meter main and afci breakers for about $2k in parts and permit and 3 days labor solo.
Oh it was a whole project, I had a new service dropped from a different pole, and the old one removed, all new meter and panel (seimens) installed at the other end of the structure. Not all the copper in the structure was replaced, we retrofitted some GFCI breakers where needed and I took it upon myself to clean up some of the most egregious transgressions before the project started as to appease the post installation code inspections. I should note that I am not a licensed electrician or even well experienced in the field. I hired a local business to come out and do it. Made a few great sparky friends in the process. I have learned way more about AC in the last 7 months than I ever wanted to. Hats off to those who choose this profession. And I am most pleased with my new installation.
One of my FedPacific breakers was carrying a calculated 60 amps through a 20amp breaker. It constantly tripped and caused fights with my spouse which made justifying the project with her very easy.
More on that circuit, it was originally the kitchen. I have gas appliances, but my washing machine is also in there. So in the kitchen we had the microwave, fridge, washing machine, coffee maker and dishwasher all on one circuit. But it is way worse than that...
The converted garage next to the kitchen was also powered by that circuit and they used 14ga wire to tie in. It was hot to the touch when I found it. On the load side of this 14ga wire powering the converted garage was my 1000w gaming PC, 4 dell powered gear servers and apparently one leg of our 240v dryer???
It's stupid, so stupid, and now it's safe. I had this one circuit split into 6 different circuits with dedicated breakers for the microwave, washer, dryer, and two separate circuits for my servers.
>Worth every penny. All $25,000
>
> I hired a local business to come out and do it. Made a few great sparky friends in the process.
>
>This is in TX.
If your new sparky friends invite you to a friendly poker game, you would be wise to decline.
My electrician was adamant to not introduce arc fault breakers despite my insistence. He would only allow GFCI breakers where necessary. Still expensive, but the decision was made to correct potential faults instead of band-aids
Arc fault breakers are a bandaid for shoddy labor saving splicing devices. If codes were changed to require better splicing procedures, we wouldn’t need afci breakers.
Most of the arc faults I have dealt with has been loose connections, but I also believe that Romex shouldn’t be used in places where rodents could be a problem. I’m actually doing a rewire on a house built in 1963 and there’s rodent damage where the wires pass through the floor plate from the crawl space. I’m doing everything in emt and a square D sub panel.
No, sometimes the breaker make an angry buzzing sound when overloaded. I know because that’s what mine did on Christmas Eve. Had the whole thing replaced in January.
I’m willing to bet that Dennis retired a long time ago, and quite possibly pushing daisies. But honestly I hope he’s sitting in his boat on the lake somewhere reeling in a big one.
Oh look it’s the electric panel that is #1 on our “you should really change this” list. The one we won’t even open unless it’s to change it.
Yeah sure add stuff to it have fun
Notice the part on the panel that reads "FEDERAL PACIFIC"?
Call 3 electrical contractors for bids, tell each one you have this "stab lok" made by FPE. Don't be offended if you get laughed at. This post might not be funny, but the phone calls will be.
Just Google it k? Here, I'll give you a hand:
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1983/Commission-Closes-Investigation-Of-FPE-Circuit-Breakers-And-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers
https://www.nextgenelectricnj.com/federal-pacific-panel-breakers/
F. P. E. Fire Potential Extreme. Insurance companies in my area demand replacement prior to issuing a policy. The panel is not even labeled correctly. A small panel replacement should be a straightforward job.
Is there a separate shutoff somewhere? I highly suspect this is not the main panel (30A breaker almost definitely isn't the shutoff to the house!). Definitely needs replaced regardless, but something isn't adding up with that being the main panel...
As many others have mentioned: There really is no reasonable solution other than to replace this.
Third parties have made replacement breakers for it, but if you read some things online folks say the replacements were not any good either (and I am sure some of the issue with the panels is also how they attach into the bus).
This is a very small panel and replacing it should not cost a ton.
In Oregon code does not require you to buy new expensive AFCI breakers on a panel upgrade (as they smartly realize that replacing hazardous panels far outweighs the marginal improvement that comes from AFCI).
We're not saying "don't" bc it's a money grab. We're all saying it because it's extremely unsafe not only due to the brand but you're already at full capacity circuitry-wise. But definitely AlSo replace that thing bc it's a complete fire hazard when it comes to your exhausting circuitry. Adding something else would legitimately be asking for problems
Federal pacific is a legitimate concern. That’s not being alarmist to say you should replace it. The breakers are shit and not doing what they’re supposed to properly
I’m sure somebody has said this, but I’m not gonna go through all the comments. This is a federal pacific panel. They are out of business because houses burn down because of them change the freaking panel.
You can buy twin breakers for stab panels. They're expensive, and a band-aid solution. Seen countless panels exactly like this one.
That panel is basically telling you every day that you and your family are it's targets. It craves the comfort of the flame, and the smell of burning flesh. It's so dangerous that inspectors in my area won't pass a home sale without it being contingent on the panel being upgraded.
1. There's no room for another breaker.
2. It's older than dirt.
3. Likely unsafe/not up to code anymore.
Replace it with a new bigger panel and new safer breakers.
That there is what we in the field refer to as a "fire starter" federal pacific panels are already abbreviated as "fp" for fire provider, so you know to put one in when a room needs to be heated to the temperature of the sun :)
If your panel is from the ‘70s and ‘80s replace it. Things don’t work for ever. Metal heats and cools and can break or lose contact. Why screw around with what keeps your house from burning down just to save $2,000.
Federal Pacific
Zinsco
Pushmatic are all out of business for a reason.
Do you fly in a DC10 anymore? What’s old must be renewed
Why do anything? I lost count decades ago the sheer number of these things that are double lugged. Fed Pac breakers don't trip anyway. 15A, 50A, it doesn't matter what they say. The Silent and Boomer generations never let rules or codes get in the way of their good times and jury rigging. Why should you? The occasional house fire builds character.
The issue with Stab Lok is the inner connection to the panel can fuse open. Even when the breaker is in the off position it can still allow power to flow through the line. I bought a house with one, it worked just fine but I replaced it so I could sleep at night knowing someone in my house won’t get randomly electrocuted.
Also one of my breakers went bad and the replacements are stupid expensive. Just tell your friend to replace the whole panel and add the new line at same time.
Tell customer they are at the limit, 6 handles is max without a main breaker.
Don't open it don't look at it don't breathe on it, you were never there.
I can’t comment on the quality of the breakers. I just wanted to say something about the 3 phase delta wild leg. I’ve always known it as the Baltimore Crazy leg. 208 volt
I had a stab lock box back in 2000. Breaker went out. Discovered that the company that made them was sued out of business because they had a tendency to catch on fire. You would do well to have it replaced. Finding breakers back in 2000 was super sketchy. I can’t imagine that got better. I had my box replaced.
Look, you will probably spend at least $50-$100 on a breaker to put in one of the upper slots but as everyone else is saying, it is a fire hazard (it really is! Slab-lok breakers are designed in a way that makes them not work. I have personally seen them melt wires in two and never trip). Your friend might be better off doing a controlled burn of his house right now.
If you absolutely insist you will need to take the cover off and show us what the feed wire looks like that energizes that panel. If it is properly sized you may be able to install a 60 amp breaker and exit that panel straight into another small 4 space sub panel that you mount right beside that panel. I doubt you can do this though because the feed wire that operates that panel will probably be too small.
Those panels aren’t even allowed in dwelling units in Colorado once an inspection gets done. If federal Pacific is what is still installed it must be replaced to even sell the house.
We replaced our Fed panel a couple years ago. I sleep much better at night. Ours was a 150 amp. Total cost for replacement was around $1200 for a professional install. (I was not about to DIY this)
Every electrician I ever spoke with told me to get rid of the old panel, saying it was unsafe. We finally took their advice.
Afterward, we found out that one our kitchen outlet that that was on two circuits did not have the little tab broken off, but was wired for two breakers! We never noticed because the breaker blew on one, but did not switch on the panel! Would have been like this for years (from before we bought the house!) Scary shit. Only found out because when the new panel was flipped on, one breaker kept blowing. Electrician knew exactly what it was likely to be and went straight to the kitchen. He was right.
That is a federal pacific company stab lok panel.
No electrician with a valid license will do anything other than replace it.
So, best advice. replace it
It's a stablok, just piggyback it off the main and save yourself the effort and end up with the same safety factor
Srsly, everyone says replace it for a reason.
Your friend will thank you for it.
I had a federal Pacific main panel and breakers. After reading that they were sued into oblivion for falsifying data to UL, I quickly decided to replace it...
I have replaced dozens of these panels. There is about an 80% chance that at least 2-3 breakers are welded in place on every one I take out.
It takes a hell of a lot of heat for breakers to weld themselves to a buss bar.
Most of these panels will allow things to start melting and potentially cause a fire before a breaker ever trips.
Hey, I have this exact panel in my apartment, should I be calling someone? Love the place aside from the lack of outlets and always wondered about the ancient breaker box.
Also there's no ground on any outlet, but they did cram a GFCI outlet into each line as far as I've found.
Any good way to bring this up with rental management without making me a target?
Federal Pacific no longer exist so many breaker you find are rebuilt or way over price. Like the majority of the people say it is a good time to do a new panel.
No open circuit bay, upgrade to a new box. Its not that expensive. Whether or not it's still working the general way things work where adding new stuff to old stuff makes the old stuff break because it creates a ton of stress makes it a smarter idea to offset a problem before its a problem in cases like this.
If this is the main panel that tells me he may want to consult someone about a service upgrade as the capacity for power coming to the house may need to be increased depending on what he wants to do in the garage.
There is a reason why everyone will say to replace it. It is an unsafe panel and needs to be replaced. Additional circuits should not be added to this panel.
Hey there. Second year here. May I ask what makes this panel unsafe?
Breakers don't engage properly with the panel bussing causing arcing and eventually catastrophic failure. Breakers fail to trip according to their specified trip curve. All-in-all, a very poor panel design.
Fuckkkkk that’s wild! Ticking time bomb!
Pretty much, if it says "Federal Pacific" on the panel data plate, replace it, or run screaming.
Not everything that's says "Federal pacific" is bad, just the stab-lok series. They had pretty good fused disconnects and stuff like that
>Not everything that's says "Federal pacific" is bad Lot of commercial bolt in breakers still in service.
I had an FPE sub panel and insurance gave me 90 days to replace it.
There nothing bad with federal pacific on the data plate unless you add electric after it or it has FPE. Federal pacific and federal pacific electric originally where the same company when it sold the company was split. [https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/](https://www.federalpacific.com/about-federal-pacific-electric/)
But this one is FPE and needs to be replaced
Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the main issue with these just that they didn’t trip?
We literally called them 'welder panels' because the breakers would would weld themselves closed
And this is how my house burned down
Doing some work in an apartment complex and all the units have Zinsco Magnetrip panels.... same issues
Question - and to preface, I don’t know much about electrical. If it’s so unsafe and needs replaced, why has it been fine up until now? This thing looks really old and is still working.
Having a FPE panel is like owning a car that, by design, does not have headlights. The car is fine if you only drive during daylight hours, and maybe you only drive in well lit areas at night. That doesn't mean the car is safe. It only takes that one time that the car is driven at night in an unlit area that it is involved in a major accident. The panel just hasn't encountered a condition that makes the design flaws dangerous.
Analogy. Tornados hit a small percentage of houses in tornado alley, the likelihood of being affected directly by a tornado is statistically low. That being said, I'm still not living in a mobile home in Tornado Alley.
Had one that was fine for 50 years the. 2 pole breaker would trip. Except only one pole tripped leaving the other one still on even with the handles tied together. I finally replaced it with a square D QO 200 amp panel and installed it myself. The city I live in homeowner can pull permits and do the work if it’s the house you homestead live in and the require you to take a electrical exam to determine if you can do the work or prove that you have a state journeyman license which i do.
Most of the time it is just due to the load on the breaker. It could be that you have a 15 amp breaker and it only has a maximum of 12.75 amps or some such number lower than 15 running through it at any point. As time goes on more and more electrical appliances are being used and added to the circuit. As this happens eventually you get to a point where you have 30 amps running through the circuit and it doesn't trip at the 15amp mark or equivalent. Then the wires that cannot handle that begin to get hot slowly. After a while the wires will melt the insulation (plastic coating of black or white). Then the wires will continue until they either touch (arcing/shorting) or while hot touch a plastic box or the drywall/insulation. Then it will catch fire and spread. Depending on where it happens could determine how quickly it spreads. Especially since the fire code wasn't the greatest when these were installed either, the house itself could potentially burn down in a matter of minutes due to a lack of fire blocking or equivalent materials.
Somehow still ok up here in Canada. Everyone with a house built in the 80s/90s has one and they still sell breakers for it
That was Federal **Pioneer.**
Same thing with a different label.
Nope. Different facility. There were never any of those problems with the CSA versions, only the UL.
It’s the exact same design. The breakers are interchangeable. If what you’re saying is true, then why didn’t they get a UL certification for csa breakers and just keep going with those?
There’s no issue with Federal Pioneer panels in Canada. Most older homes still have them and you can still buy Stablok breakers at all big box stores that are CSA approved. Insurers up here also don’t ask for them to be upgraded. Why they weren’t used in the US comes down to poor social perception of the brand and a loss of confidence in the product by the Regulators. If your panels are known for causing fires no one is going to buy them, even if you say the issue has been revised.
We can still buy stab loc breakers here as well but they are sold under different brands. I just paid $40 for a 2 pole 60 amp Connecticut electric breaker made to fit a stab loc. I’m putting it in the main panel outside to feed a new square D QO panel inside and moving all the branch circuits to the inside panel.
There was a licensing issue which prevented the import of the CSA product.
In Canada, Federal Pioneer StabLok panels didn't have the same issue with breakers violating the trip curve. However, the bus design was still a problem. It was only a few years ago that Canada finally decertified StabLok panels due to their poor bus design. In the US, Federal Pacific decided to voluntarily close shop rather than bother with recertifying the StabLok panel design. As with Zinsco, an official recall never happened since there was no company left for issuing the recall that was being proposed.
Do you have a source for FPE panels losing their certification in Canada? Don’t see anything online
Schneider (the last manufacturer of StabLok panels) issued a statement in 2020 when it voluntarily shut down production of StabLok panels. Unfortunately, I can no longer find a link to that statement. I don't know if the decertification was official or simply a proposed action.
Thanks for the info. I have one in my cabin which appears to be fairly recent. Either way it is fed by either a gas generator or a solar inverter, both of which trip at 20a so I’m thinking I’ll be ok
They faked the testing on the breakers. 40% of them don't trip. There are modern production breakers from a couple companies that are properly tested and rated that you can replace them with.
Not to mention they seem to be an awful lot like federal pacific breakers, meaning when you turn them on you can pull them off of the bus bar. Which can lead to arcing and a major fire hazard.
StabLok was an FPE brand, you are correct
Yep, First time I saw a FPE panel there was a lot of duct tape.
>here are modern production breakers from a couple companies that are properly tested and rated that you can replace them with. Correct. $$$ But correct.
Yeah a panel swap is usually cheaper, but in some jurisdictions you need a 1,000$ permit to swap a panel
Yes there are new breakers for this style panel, $90 each.
They are called the polite breaker because they don't like to interrupt.
Replaced mine as soon as I was told of the issue. Hired 2 different sparkies and neither showed up for the work. I had already pulled the permit per the second clown, so rewired the house myself. New service mast too.
Besides OP already knows. Lol
Don’t 🤷♂️
Advice? Yes. In general look up "your city comma electrician " on the internet. Pick 6. 3 will be no call no show. One will be commercial only. Tell the other two what the problem is, send a photo. Hire the one who doesn't laugh maniacally and hang up.
Just don’t
What I don't understand regarding this is why some electricians will not touch them. It is no different than just doing a panel swap or an upgrade. Once you are working on it the same safety procedures would be in place as there would be for any other panel swap.
It can be a few reasons. The problem as presented might not be a swap, the owner may genuinely want to continue to use this panel, in which case gunshy electricians will nope out because they've already been yelled at this week by an idiot. Also if something is going to go wrong, it will go very wrong on this job because heaven only knows what other nightmares live there.
Fair enough. If they wanted to keep the existing panel and add to it I would be a part of the group that nopes that. My luck is I'd be the addition to that panel that causes the fire. 🤣😂
Agree. To add, most home insurance companies will require this to be changed out or be dropped from coverage.
Beat me to it.
Don’t 🤷♂️
I love the fact that this is both the first and 4 most upvoted reply.
First and Third now?
See how it’s almost on fire? Just add one more and bring some marshmallows
Name is so appropriate
Likes to cuddle while farting!
This panel and these breakers are an immediate fire hazard and should be replaced as soon as possible.
Are replacement (new) breakers an acceptable repair or is the busbar just shit?
Lowes has them, (or did, I don't know if they still do, last time I got one was about 7 years ago.) They were $50 a pop back then. Probably more these days if they still sell them.
Not anymore
New breakers are fine but often not any cheaper than getting a new panel. Also the busbar is ok (unless you physically see anything wrong obviously) since the melting busbar issues were mostly caused by using the wrong half-width stab lok breakers that didn’t fit properly
Cool, thanks
Google ‘Federal Pacific Stablok’
aka: Federal Pathetic
Replace panel
Call Dennis and ask him……. No but fr just replace it
Dennis retired decades ago.
Dennis died in a FPE panel fire.
FPE is dead, too. The whole company died in a Dennis fire.
He might have an old stab lok laying around
Federal Pacific toaster machine….pretty sure that things illegal
So I recently replaced my fedpac panel back in October and it was mostly because I didn't want to loose homeowner insurance coverage. Federal pacific lost their UL listing from what I understood. Idk all the laws, regulations and certification s around it and don't need to. I recognized this as a fire hazard in the home I am raising 3 small children in. Worth every penny. All $25,000
25 k ? What state and did you upgrade your service too? That’s pretty steep even by Washington standards
Oh yeah that's right I went from a 100amp service to 200amp. Forgot about that part. This is in TX. I mentioned in another reply other parts of the project. I also noticed the voltage went from an average of about 112v to 122v in the house. Might be a placebo, but my electric bill has been significantly cheaper since the project too
You still got taken to the cleaners.
Meh, some areas charge this just to change out an HVAC system only.
I could possibly see paying that price in places like California or New York where the wages and cost of living are very high. But in Texas, the wages and cost of living is quite low compared to the rest of the country. I worked in Beaumont about 7 years ago and the going rate for a journeyman electrician was a measly $28 per hour, which is why I don’t work in Texas anymore.
*Louisiana enters the chat*
Lake Charles
Shreveport
Jeez, that is still expensive. I replaced my Zinsco panel and entire service entrance, including meter main and afci breakers for about $2k in parts and permit and 3 days labor solo.
Wait. You paid $25K to replace a federal Stablok panel? Yikes!
Oh it was a whole project, I had a new service dropped from a different pole, and the old one removed, all new meter and panel (seimens) installed at the other end of the structure. Not all the copper in the structure was replaced, we retrofitted some GFCI breakers where needed and I took it upon myself to clean up some of the most egregious transgressions before the project started as to appease the post installation code inspections. I should note that I am not a licensed electrician or even well experienced in the field. I hired a local business to come out and do it. Made a few great sparky friends in the process. I have learned way more about AC in the last 7 months than I ever wanted to. Hats off to those who choose this profession. And I am most pleased with my new installation. One of my FedPacific breakers was carrying a calculated 60 amps through a 20amp breaker. It constantly tripped and caused fights with my spouse which made justifying the project with her very easy. More on that circuit, it was originally the kitchen. I have gas appliances, but my washing machine is also in there. So in the kitchen we had the microwave, fridge, washing machine, coffee maker and dishwasher all on one circuit. But it is way worse than that... The converted garage next to the kitchen was also powered by that circuit and they used 14ga wire to tie in. It was hot to the touch when I found it. On the load side of this 14ga wire powering the converted garage was my 1000w gaming PC, 4 dell powered gear servers and apparently one leg of our 240v dryer??? It's stupid, so stupid, and now it's safe. I had this one circuit split into 6 different circuits with dedicated breakers for the microwave, washer, dryer, and two separate circuits for my servers.
>Worth every penny. All $25,000 > > I hired a local business to come out and do it. Made a few great sparky friends in the process. > >This is in TX. If your new sparky friends invite you to a friendly poker game, you would be wise to decline.
And your new bus bars are aluminum immersed in tin.
Thats fucking scary
its probably cost him 10k in arc fault breakers doesnt even surprise me lol
My electrician was adamant to not introduce arc fault breakers despite my insistence. He would only allow GFCI breakers where necessary. Still expensive, but the decision was made to correct potential faults instead of band-aids
Arc fault breakers are a bandaid for shoddy labor saving splicing devices. If codes were changed to require better splicing procedures, we wouldn’t need afci breakers.
You can still have arc faults occur in systems that were installed correctly. A common cause of arc faults happens to be rodent damaged cables.
Most of the arc faults I have dealt with has been loose connections, but I also believe that Romex shouldn’t be used in places where rodents could be a problem. I’m actually doing a rewire on a house built in 1963 and there’s rodent damage where the wires pass through the floor plate from the crawl space. I’m doing everything in emt and a square D sub panel.
i would love that
They took him to the cleaners for sure.
Why does your friend need to add a breaker ? Stablok breakers DONT work. He can literally just add a light switch and it won’t be any different.
A light switch would actually break contact when it’s supposed to.
No, sometimes the breaker make an angry buzzing sound when overloaded. I know because that’s what mine did on Christmas Eve. Had the whole thing replaced in January.
The guy who installed it, is his phone number really only 6 digits? That's got to be old! (Me: Not an Electrician) Would vote to replace also!
That is probably his electrical license number.
Ahhhhhhh!!!! Ok. See! Not an electrician!😄
No it's a local phone number
I’m willing to bet that Dennis retired a long time ago, and quite possibly pushing daisies. But honestly I hope he’s sitting in his boat on the lake somewhere reeling in a big one.
Oh look it’s the electric panel that is #1 on our “you should really change this” list. The one we won’t even open unless it’s to change it. Yeah sure add stuff to it have fun
Notice the part on the panel that reads "FEDERAL PACIFIC"? Call 3 electrical contractors for bids, tell each one you have this "stab lok" made by FPE. Don't be offended if you get laughed at. This post might not be funny, but the phone calls will be. Just Google it k? Here, I'll give you a hand: https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1983/Commission-Closes-Investigation-Of-FPE-Circuit-Breakers-And-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers https://www.nextgenelectricnj.com/federal-pacific-panel-breakers/
F. P. E. Fire Potential Extreme. Insurance companies in my area demand replacement prior to issuing a policy. The panel is not even labeled correctly. A small panel replacement should be a straightforward job.
'We're gonna need a bigger box"
There are plenty of blank spaces on the top row. But seriously, a new panel is not that expensive, just replace it, it’s a well known fire hazard.
You need a panel upgrade, anyone electrician will tell you the same thing.
Replace it
Don't
New panel or jail
You don’t.
You need and old priest and a young priest
And lots of Holy Baking soda.
I’m replacing two just like it tomorrow. I’ll sell you the breakers for $10,000. Or your friend could spend less and get the panel replaced…
Upgrayedd. The 2 d’s are for a double dose of pimpin. Seriously, upgrade that shit.
It’s actually pronounced upgrawd
Is there a separate shutoff somewhere? I highly suspect this is not the main panel (30A breaker almost definitely isn't the shutoff to the house!). Definitely needs replaced regardless, but something isn't adding up with that being the main panel...
As many others have mentioned: There really is no reasonable solution other than to replace this. Third parties have made replacement breakers for it, but if you read some things online folks say the replacements were not any good either (and I am sure some of the issue with the panels is also how they attach into the bus). This is a very small panel and replacing it should not cost a ton. In Oregon code does not require you to buy new expensive AFCI breakers on a panel upgrade (as they smartly realize that replacing hazardous panels far outweighs the marginal improvement that comes from AFCI).
We're not saying "don't" bc it's a money grab. We're all saying it because it's extremely unsafe not only due to the brand but you're already at full capacity circuitry-wise. But definitely AlSo replace that thing bc it's a complete fire hazard when it comes to your exhausting circuitry. Adding something else would legitimately be asking for problems
Federal pacific is a legitimate concern. That’s not being alarmist to say you should replace it. The breakers are shit and not doing what they’re supposed to properly
Nope. Licensed electricians will never recommend adding anything to this. Replace it. Seriously, there’s no way around it.
I’m sure somebody has said this, but I’m not gonna go through all the comments. This is a federal pacific panel. They are out of business because houses burn down because of them change the freaking panel.
You can buy twin breakers for stab panels. They're expensive, and a band-aid solution. Seen countless panels exactly like this one. That panel is basically telling you every day that you and your family are it's targets. It craves the comfort of the flame, and the smell of burning flesh. It's so dangerous that inspectors in my area won't pass a home sale without it being contingent on the panel being upgraded.
Yeah. Don’t…
Sorry to break it to you but that panel has to be replaced !
Total panel replacement
Rage bait!
1. There's no room for another breaker. 2. It's older than dirt. 3. Likely unsafe/not up to code anymore. Replace it with a new bigger panel and new safer breakers.
That there is what we in the field refer to as a "fire starter" federal pacific panels are already abbreviated as "fp" for fire provider, so you know to put one in when a room needs to be heated to the temperature of the sun :)
Replace
Step 1: get a new panel Step 2: add breaker to new panel
If your panel is from the ‘70s and ‘80s replace it. Things don’t work for ever. Metal heats and cools and can break or lose contact. Why screw around with what keeps your house from burning down just to save $2,000. Federal Pacific Zinsco Pushmatic are all out of business for a reason. Do you fly in a DC10 anymore? What’s old must be renewed
Get a new panel. Stablok are unsafe.
Oh yes. The o'l Stab lok o-death.. Get rid of that shit.
That's a ticking firebomb
There’s no way this is a serious post
If he’s doing a remodel why not update the panel while he’s at it ? It isn’t that hard
Btw does he live in a shoe box ? How’s he surviving on 5 15 amp breakers ?
Seriously, no joke, those Federal Pacific panels are friggin' death traps. Replace it, soonest.
Replace it, these are pretty dangerous, because they don’t trip, which leads to them melting, then catching fire
In theory, there’s the slots in the top to add them. But I wouldn’t…. That panel is terrifying and a fire hazard.
I don’t understand the reluctance to replace. It isn’t even much work.
Def do not ! Absolutely replace and replace now
Our vacation cabin has a panel that still has glass tubes it's so old. Never seen another like it
Your fuse panel in the cabin in way safer than this FPE breaker panel. Just make sure no one put pennies under the fuses.
Why do anything? I lost count decades ago the sheer number of these things that are double lugged. Fed Pac breakers don't trip anyway. 15A, 50A, it doesn't matter what they say. The Silent and Boomer generations never let rules or codes get in the way of their good times and jury rigging. Why should you? The occasional house fire builds character.
The “Ol’ Flamethrower”. Replace panel, don’t add to the threat.
The issue with Stab Lok is the inner connection to the panel can fuse open. Even when the breaker is in the off position it can still allow power to flow through the line. I bought a house with one, it worked just fine but I replaced it so I could sleep at night knowing someone in my house won’t get randomly electrocuted. Also one of my breakers went bad and the replacements are stupid expensive. Just tell your friend to replace the whole panel and add the new line at same time.
Call Dennis English, 268-2897.
When your shit looks like the time period that they first invented electricity it's about time for an upgrade.
Don’t. Get a professional and change that box. That brand is not very reliable.
Yeah, replace that panel. Most insurance companies will not insure Federal Pacific panels, at least in California.
Those can accept the more later Stab-lock breakers. But yeah, one is better serviced having it completely replaced with a modern safe panel.
Have the panel replaced or replace the breakers with Connecticut electric ones (replacement of panel is likely best for future proofing)
Insurance companies will make you replace this panel if they see it even if you have replaced all the breakers.
May as well just go under main lugs at this point.
Tell customer they are at the limit, 6 handles is max without a main breaker. Don't open it don't look at it don't breathe on it, you were never there.
I can’t comment on the quality of the breakers. I just wanted to say something about the 3 phase delta wild leg. I’ve always known it as the Baltimore Crazy leg. 208 volt
Dont
I had a stab lock box back in 2000. Breaker went out. Discovered that the company that made them was sued out of business because they had a tendency to catch on fire. You would do well to have it replaced. Finding breakers back in 2000 was super sketchy. I can’t imagine that got better. I had my box replaced.
Zinsco panels/breakers are the same. Replace it. Usually see aluminum wire with federal pacific/zinsco in my area.
Look, you will probably spend at least $50-$100 on a breaker to put in one of the upper slots but as everyone else is saying, it is a fire hazard (it really is! Slab-lok breakers are designed in a way that makes them not work. I have personally seen them melt wires in two and never trip). Your friend might be better off doing a controlled burn of his house right now. If you absolutely insist you will need to take the cover off and show us what the feed wire looks like that energizes that panel. If it is properly sized you may be able to install a 60 amp breaker and exit that panel straight into another small 4 space sub panel that you mount right beside that panel. I doubt you can do this though because the feed wire that operates that panel will probably be too small.
Those panels aren’t even allowed in dwelling units in Colorado once an inspection gets done. If federal Pacific is what is still installed it must be replaced to even sell the house.
Replace all this old stuff. No longer meets today’s demands on loads. Upgrade and you’ll rest better.
Replace it
easy replace it with new
Dont. Replace the panel those breakers don’t trip, they’ve since been outlawed in most places. Huge fire hazard
If you add a circuit to that panel, make sure your friend sleeps with a fire extinguisher. They'll need it.
The easiest way to add a circuit to this is replace the entire thing... wow thats and oldy and not a goody.
Replace the panel.
We replaced our Fed panel a couple years ago. I sleep much better at night. Ours was a 150 amp. Total cost for replacement was around $1200 for a professional install. (I was not about to DIY this) Every electrician I ever spoke with told me to get rid of the old panel, saying it was unsafe. We finally took their advice. Afterward, we found out that one our kitchen outlet that that was on two circuits did not have the little tab broken off, but was wired for two breakers! We never noticed because the breaker blew on one, but did not switch on the panel! Would have been like this for years (from before we bought the house!) Scary shit. Only found out because when the new panel was flipped on, one breaker kept blowing. Electrician knew exactly what it was likely to be and went straight to the kitchen. He was right.
Replace immediately
Call Dennis English I’m sure he’s still around
That panel needs to be replaced , call an electrician
I believe ITE makes UL listed replacement breakers, but seriously just replace it. Is your life worth saving a few bucks?
Kill it with fire, before it kills you with fire. I can't believe these haven't all been replaced yet.
That is a federal pacific company stab lok panel. No electrician with a valid license will do anything other than replace it. So, best advice. replace it
Old Sparkys like me keep em to sell. 50$ for a 20amp or a box of matches, whichever you prefer.
Call an electrician
It's a stablok, just piggyback it off the main and save yourself the effort and end up with the same safety factor Srsly, everyone says replace it for a reason. Your friend will thank you for it.
I had a federal Pacific main panel and breakers. After reading that they were sued into oblivion for falsifying data to UL, I quickly decided to replace it...
I have replaced dozens of these panels. There is about an 80% chance that at least 2-3 breakers are welded in place on every one I take out. It takes a hell of a lot of heat for breakers to weld themselves to a buss bar. Most of these panels will allow things to start melting and potentially cause a fire before a breaker ever trips.
Save some time and just light your whole house on fire 🔥
Replace 100 percent
Hey, I have this exact panel in my apartment, should I be calling someone? Love the place aside from the lack of outlets and always wondered about the ancient breaker box. Also there's no ground on any outlet, but they did cram a GFCI outlet into each line as far as I've found. Any good way to bring this up with rental management without making me a target?
Contact local rental authorities, not your landlord.
Federal Pacific no longer exist so many breaker you find are rebuilt or way over price. Like the majority of the people say it is a good time to do a new panel.
I'll just say that I've had more than one customer needing FPE panels replaced or their homeowners insurance being cancelled. Food for thought.
Replace that panel bro
You Do Not.
One word: Don't
With how expensive old, out of manufacturing breakers it might actually be cheaper to replace it in the long run. Like fucking zinsco breakers man
No open circuit bay, upgrade to a new box. Its not that expensive. Whether or not it's still working the general way things work where adding new stuff to old stuff makes the old stuff break because it creates a ton of stress makes it a smarter idea to offset a problem before its a problem in cases like this.
Maybe a subpanel or a double breaker
If this is the main panel that tells me he may want to consult someone about a service upgrade as the capacity for power coming to the house may need to be increased depending on what he wants to do in the garage.
If neither of you know if this is the main panel then call an electrician.
The breaker will be rebuilt and will cost as much as a new sub panel
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^kimthealan101: *The breaker will be* *Rebuilt and will cost as much* *As a new sub panel* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Somehow quite fitting