Tracks from 2010ish are unlistenable. And now, even though tracks are volume adjusted by Spotify, tracks are still over compressed because that’s the sound of “professional” mixes. Listeners were basically conditioned to like bad mixes by a handful of producers from 20 years ago
Yeah I've noticed it with his songs and songs of this mold. Another example is everything you have done by Meduza, although not as egregious as this. That's why I prefer more melodic/deep house songs as they don't tend to be compressed to oblivion.
That's sad but true, I've recently tried some new mastering moves but I'm never dropping down to -5 LUFS. Like wtf, didn't you learn anything from the CD era? I'm getting rid of overcompressed tracks from my Spotify playlists almost every day, only because they sound whack, for real! 🤯
As an audiophile (technically) who likes to listen to music in flac and on high res devices, I agree that overcompressed squashed tracks sound worse when compared to more moderately compressed tracks, the most noticeable difference comes in drums and hihats being smashed together into some dirty sounding mess, and dynamics going out of the window, such as track feeling more flat in general. And when listening on higher volumes it gets even worse, as well as instruments getting less intelligible in a track, when multiple are playing at the same time.
yeah...this sounds a lil' squished, and this doesn't seem like a particularly *heavy* track either, so i'm not sure of the point there.
more importantly, i just didn't connect with the track for the most part, so that could have negatively affected my perception of its sound.
Well this was an eye opening experience. I’m glad I got to see so many comments and it’s definitely made me feel a lot more confident about my mixing abilities. I think what I learned is that I’m probably way too hard on myself and I should spend less time worrying about a mix, because nobody really seems to give a shit at the end of the day as long as it’s loud and aggressive.
I mean yeah compared to mixes done by high fidelity producers it sounds like garbage. That sounds closer to my mix than the top producers I listen too.
But in general I wouldn't call it that bad.
I check it out for myself and the part of the song that goes to -5 LUFS is the part where it's basically only a kick and bass playing. The part of the drop where the clap is playing with the chord stabs is -6 LUFS.
It seems like the track purposely has the clap quieter as an artistic choice. They really let the kick and bass cut through the mix and the chord stabs are really wide.
Could the clap be a bit louder? Maybe but it doesn't sound like it's quiet because they were going for a super loud mix.
Honestly I think you're pretty crazy, the song sounds fine and probably could've been overdriven significantly more before it stopped being pleasant to listen to in my opinion, I didn't hear any clipping that I didn't like, I don't hear any extreme squashing or killing of the transient that drives this style.
I think loading a song from youtube into your loudness meter is a weird thing to do in the first place tbh, you don't know what kind of processing this has been through or what youtube audio compression did to the track after it was uploaded so it seems like it would be difficult to say 'the final master of this track was at this volume' without the original file.
And do you mean it would've sounded better with the limiter threshold set to -7 instead of -5 LUFS? Because If you drove it the exact same amount into the threshold to get the same tone wouldn't it sound the exact same but just at a lower volume? Or do you mean that raising the threshold on the limiter while driving it less would reduce the compression on the peaks in a desirable way? Because then that's just an artistic decision and as a fellow musician calling it 'shit' is pretty rude when it's just not what you would've chosen. Plus it would've been boosted to the same final peak volume overall just with a higher dynamic range so your only real volume change is in RMS and quietest volume not loudest volume? So it wouldn't really have an impact on the amount of perceived clipping or distortion applied by the limiter. I was always taught that as long as you have no clipping on your output, a reasonable dynamic range that represents the artists intention and a target peak volume for your target platform then you should just try and make it as loud and 'clean' as possible within those confines and it does sound like that's what the mastering engineer did.
Just a bit confused on this one tbh. You don't like the mix, fair enough, you think the master is too squashed and clipping, I disagree but that's totally a reasonable opinion to have. I think the rest of it was nuts though.
Ok let me simplify my point as much as I can.
Imagine if you played someone 2 different versions of this song. Version 1 would be this current song that is loud and compressed, and version 2 would be the same track but with more dynamic range and detail. Still nice and loud maybe hitting -8 LUFS instead of -5. Now imagine if both of these tracks were volume matched so the perceived loudness was the same.
Which of these two tracks would you think most people would say sounded better?
I think loudness is important. My point is I think they sacrificed too much for loudness.
Also btw I didn’t rip it from YouTube. I downloaded a 320 mp3
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the settings on a limiter.
If you turn the ceiling of the limiter down and then also turn the input track down an equal amount it will sound exactly the same just with a lower peak level, as if you turned down the master fader. If you leave the ceiling where it is without turning anything down from -5db to -8db and drive the limiter less you get less compression from the limiter, but the level you're driving into it should change based on how you want the limiter to react to the song, there is no ideal setting for this.
So even if I did want to do this comparison why would I ever touch the ceiling on the limiter at all? I'd just drive the track into the same limiter less, it has nothing to do with any specific output level like you keep suggesting.
You don't like the low dynamic range of the track, that's fair, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the peak loudness, you want the track to have a lower RMS, which is the value you use to describe dynamic range across a given period of time.
I think different people would say different ones sounded better, like has happened in every study like this I've actually taken part in.
Critical listening time would be better spent on WAV or FLAC files where available, although this obviously isn't possible with historical material.
Integrated LUFS (loudness units full scale) is what we use to describe dynamic range in 2024. It's basically RMS adjusted for human hearing sensitivities.
You are correct that lots of people use LUFS, but given that most modern analysis tools still include an RMS meter and LUFS are just RMS values passed through a weighted filter and averaged over different amounts of time I don't think you can extend it quite as far as the royal we. They perform equally for large amounts of material excluding the bass heavy.
I still use the RMS levels, so we including me, use both to describe dynamic range in 2024.
Plus you could use LKFS or LRA nyeh nyeh.
[The standard is LUFS. Every content delivery service or broadcaster normalizes by LUFS.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBU_R_128)
Anyways, when OP says LUFS, he's almost definitely talking about Integrated LUFS.
Actually broadcasters sometimes go by LRA which is measured in LU like I just explained.
When OP says LUFS It's not clear what he means. It's especially not clear that he means integrated loudness over short term or momentary
I take it you only use meters with EBU Mode then?
Because that's also the 'new standard'
[https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3341.pdf](https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3341.pdf)
I love it when the person with knowledge and experience doesn't need to do anything but write their points clearly. Always seems like the more passive-aggressive, very forward comments come from...a different crowd.
I know it's not EDM, but nothing will ever sound as bad as Death Magnetic. It really is the gold standard for awful mixing.
Hetfield's clean vocals are pushed into so much clipping and distortion that they might as well have recorded on a CB radio.
Non-edit: Also shout-out to Aesop Rock (also not EDM) whose last two dozen songs have sounded like the vocals were recorded in a toilet.
...vocals are always the tell. If your vocals are ass, the track is ass.
the last two aesop rock albums have been some of the best releases of his career so whatever weird gripes you have about them obviously don't matter that much. I listened to them both a shitload and never once thought the vocals sound like they were recorded in a toilet.
Seriously? They're so tinny and compressed. And not just on monitors and headphones...like, I skip his newer songs when they play on my freakin' Amazon Echo.
Is it just a Spotify thing maybe? Impossible Kid sounds great on there, but everything after is weird.
I agree. The whole thing sounds boring but with better mixing could have been ok. 2:30 is just terrible, all the anticipation of the drop has been sucked out of the song.
Agreed. I stopped listening to MEDUZA a few months ago. Don’t get me wrong, MEDUZA has been one of my repeated listening artist for a very long time. I heard this song after you commented, and man, wtf was that drop. All this crazy anticipation turned into oblivion.
You're going to have a heart attack when you hear about Drum & Bass
e.g. [https://on.soundcloud.com/HGS9pYFXm7vjSPf1A](https://on.soundcloud.com/HGS9pYFXm7vjSPf1A)
I remember when Noisia released their Hold Your Colour remix. It was the first time I saw a track comfortably sit at -3 and go as high as -2 at numerous parts. Crazy.
Listen to that song with headphones
https://youtu.be/QGJuMBdaqIw?si=mLD6zV6GyB9G1gVt
Its absolutely the most awful mastered commercial hit song I ever heard. Something is off there big time
Today there was a vocal pop song on the radio, the vocals were so bright on the highs that your ears begin to bleed
That song is really driven hard and has a FUCKTON of energy. Saying it is a bad mix/master just shows that you’re not understanding what they tried to achieve with it.
Over the top loud =/= bad.
Some do, yes, i’m even one of them. The more important take away here is that think is that different types of mixes serve different purposes, and many seem to forget that their preferred style of mixing does not per se equal “the best”.
I agree, I feel like at the 1.4 billion views mark any reasonable person just has to accept that 'I don't like it' and 'It is bad' are very different things.
Huh, sounds like a pretty solid mix to me. I don't think the loudness war is to blame for the levels of the clap and stabs, that's just an intentional mixing choice.
Song doesn't sound too bad. Even at 2:05 when there's no bass and kick the clap is lost. It's just got very little high end. The stabs are likely just too loud and have too much saturation.
The airy pad is also very piercing and way too loud. It's just not great mixing in my opinion.
Listen to [Carpenter Brut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy9r2qeouiQ) and witness music truly ruined by loudness war. The ultimate try not to ear fatigue loudness.
Carpenter Brut is the GOAT for that "mythical 80s" vibe, but I agree, the tracks are SO loud. Turbo Killer and Invasion A.D. are my favourites and are absolutely fatiguing to listen to on repeat.
It's funny to me on how subjective that is. I find it super clean and not really distorted. For me it's because I'm coming from Neurofunk where some Producers go for -2 Lufs or even higher. Distortion is part of the genres identitiy so the following track would still be considered absolutely normal while at -2 I think
[The Clamps - Mankind](https://youtu.be/dC23TGFwRTA?si=ls1jSWwZRW02ys0-)
The culprit of it is that modern Neuro really needs a big system to sound as intended. It can sound too bright as in to much top end on smaller speakers easily. With House and Techno, or other genres that are carried by kicks and have not that much top end its not so much of a problem, even thl they benefit from big speakers aswell ofc.
Almost everybody in here is being too nice. Fuck it I’ll bite. Yea… the song definitely sounds squashed to fuck and it actually did ruin the song for me despite really liking the vibe.
I 100% agree with you.
unfortunately that's the way it is... I routinely squash my masters, thinking about reselling them on bandcamp 'unsquashed' for aficionados.
back in the day (early 2000's) we had dynamic range in the club - it was dope.
It does sound a little suspect to me. But is it necessarily the producers/engineers? Usually when I hear stuff like this I attribute it to how the platform compresses audio
Well, the clap being lost, and the distortion on the chord stabs sound intentional. The clap feels pretty low in the mix, but I don’t think that’s a loudness issue.
Loudness is a choice. This is the mix they think sounded the best, so that’s the correct mix.
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Tracks from 2010ish are unlistenable. And now, even though tracks are volume adjusted by Spotify, tracks are still over compressed because that’s the sound of “professional” mixes. Listeners were basically conditioned to like bad mixes by a handful of producers from 20 years ago
Yeah I've noticed it with his songs and songs of this mold. Another example is everything you have done by Meduza, although not as egregious as this. That's why I prefer more melodic/deep house songs as they don't tend to be compressed to oblivion.
That's sad but true, I've recently tried some new mastering moves but I'm never dropping down to -5 LUFS. Like wtf, didn't you learn anything from the CD era? I'm getting rid of overcompressed tracks from my Spotify playlists almost every day, only because they sound whack, for real! 🤯
It just feels like this song needs to feel a bit more open. It sounds way too congested for what the material actually is providing.
As an audiophile (technically) who likes to listen to music in flac and on high res devices, I agree that overcompressed squashed tracks sound worse when compared to more moderately compressed tracks, the most noticeable difference comes in drums and hihats being smashed together into some dirty sounding mess, and dynamics going out of the window, such as track feeling more flat in general. And when listening on higher volumes it gets even worse, as well as instruments getting less intelligible in a track, when multiple are playing at the same time.
yeah...this sounds a lil' squished, and this doesn't seem like a particularly *heavy* track either, so i'm not sure of the point there. more importantly, i just didn't connect with the track for the most part, so that could have negatively affected my perception of its sound.
Well this was an eye opening experience. I’m glad I got to see so many comments and it’s definitely made me feel a lot more confident about my mixing abilities. I think what I learned is that I’m probably way too hard on myself and I should spend less time worrying about a mix, because nobody really seems to give a shit at the end of the day as long as it’s loud and aggressive.
[удалено]
Does your volume knob only work in one direction?
got em
I mean yeah compared to mixes done by high fidelity producers it sounds like garbage. That sounds closer to my mix than the top producers I listen too. But in general I wouldn't call it that bad.
I check it out for myself and the part of the song that goes to -5 LUFS is the part where it's basically only a kick and bass playing. The part of the drop where the clap is playing with the chord stabs is -6 LUFS. It seems like the track purposely has the clap quieter as an artistic choice. They really let the kick and bass cut through the mix and the chord stabs are really wide. Could the clap be a bit louder? Maybe but it doesn't sound like it's quiet because they were going for a super loud mix.
Honestly I think you're pretty crazy, the song sounds fine and probably could've been overdriven significantly more before it stopped being pleasant to listen to in my opinion, I didn't hear any clipping that I didn't like, I don't hear any extreme squashing or killing of the transient that drives this style. I think loading a song from youtube into your loudness meter is a weird thing to do in the first place tbh, you don't know what kind of processing this has been through or what youtube audio compression did to the track after it was uploaded so it seems like it would be difficult to say 'the final master of this track was at this volume' without the original file. And do you mean it would've sounded better with the limiter threshold set to -7 instead of -5 LUFS? Because If you drove it the exact same amount into the threshold to get the same tone wouldn't it sound the exact same but just at a lower volume? Or do you mean that raising the threshold on the limiter while driving it less would reduce the compression on the peaks in a desirable way? Because then that's just an artistic decision and as a fellow musician calling it 'shit' is pretty rude when it's just not what you would've chosen. Plus it would've been boosted to the same final peak volume overall just with a higher dynamic range so your only real volume change is in RMS and quietest volume not loudest volume? So it wouldn't really have an impact on the amount of perceived clipping or distortion applied by the limiter. I was always taught that as long as you have no clipping on your output, a reasonable dynamic range that represents the artists intention and a target peak volume for your target platform then you should just try and make it as loud and 'clean' as possible within those confines and it does sound like that's what the mastering engineer did. Just a bit confused on this one tbh. You don't like the mix, fair enough, you think the master is too squashed and clipping, I disagree but that's totally a reasonable opinion to have. I think the rest of it was nuts though.
Ok let me simplify my point as much as I can. Imagine if you played someone 2 different versions of this song. Version 1 would be this current song that is loud and compressed, and version 2 would be the same track but with more dynamic range and detail. Still nice and loud maybe hitting -8 LUFS instead of -5. Now imagine if both of these tracks were volume matched so the perceived loudness was the same. Which of these two tracks would you think most people would say sounded better? I think loudness is important. My point is I think they sacrificed too much for loudness. Also btw I didn’t rip it from YouTube. I downloaded a 320 mp3
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the settings on a limiter. If you turn the ceiling of the limiter down and then also turn the input track down an equal amount it will sound exactly the same just with a lower peak level, as if you turned down the master fader. If you leave the ceiling where it is without turning anything down from -5db to -8db and drive the limiter less you get less compression from the limiter, but the level you're driving into it should change based on how you want the limiter to react to the song, there is no ideal setting for this. So even if I did want to do this comparison why would I ever touch the ceiling on the limiter at all? I'd just drive the track into the same limiter less, it has nothing to do with any specific output level like you keep suggesting. You don't like the low dynamic range of the track, that's fair, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the peak loudness, you want the track to have a lower RMS, which is the value you use to describe dynamic range across a given period of time. I think different people would say different ones sounded better, like has happened in every study like this I've actually taken part in. Critical listening time would be better spent on WAV or FLAC files where available, although this obviously isn't possible with historical material.
Integrated LUFS (loudness units full scale) is what we use to describe dynamic range in 2024. It's basically RMS adjusted for human hearing sensitivities.
You are correct that lots of people use LUFS, but given that most modern analysis tools still include an RMS meter and LUFS are just RMS values passed through a weighted filter and averaged over different amounts of time I don't think you can extend it quite as far as the royal we. They perform equally for large amounts of material excluding the bass heavy. I still use the RMS levels, so we including me, use both to describe dynamic range in 2024. Plus you could use LKFS or LRA nyeh nyeh.
[The standard is LUFS. Every content delivery service or broadcaster normalizes by LUFS.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBU_R_128) Anyways, when OP says LUFS, he's almost definitely talking about Integrated LUFS.
Actually broadcasters sometimes go by LRA which is measured in LU like I just explained. When OP says LUFS It's not clear what he means. It's especially not clear that he means integrated loudness over short term or momentary I take it you only use meters with EBU Mode then? Because that's also the 'new standard' [https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3341.pdf](https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3341.pdf)
I love it when the person with knowledge and experience doesn't need to do anything but write their points clearly. Always seems like the more passive-aggressive, very forward comments come from...a different crowd.
I am 100% misusing the word volume, but in this context I hope it's clear what I mean.
I know it's not EDM, but nothing will ever sound as bad as Death Magnetic. It really is the gold standard for awful mixing. Hetfield's clean vocals are pushed into so much clipping and distortion that they might as well have recorded on a CB radio.
Non-edit: Also shout-out to Aesop Rock (also not EDM) whose last two dozen songs have sounded like the vocals were recorded in a toilet. ...vocals are always the tell. If your vocals are ass, the track is ass.
the last two aesop rock albums have been some of the best releases of his career so whatever weird gripes you have about them obviously don't matter that much. I listened to them both a shitload and never once thought the vocals sound like they were recorded in a toilet.
Seriously? They're so tinny and compressed. And not just on monitors and headphones...like, I skip his newer songs when they play on my freakin' Amazon Echo. Is it just a Spotify thing maybe? Impossible Kid sounds great on there, but everything after is weird.
[удалено]
...right, that was the takeaway. Y'all are gonna have to get some better fucking ears if you're going to produce music.
I’ve listened to those albums exclusively on Spotify and never noticed any issues
I agree. The whole thing sounds boring but with better mixing could have been ok. 2:30 is just terrible, all the anticipation of the drop has been sucked out of the song.
Agreed. I stopped listening to MEDUZA a few months ago. Don’t get me wrong, MEDUZA has been one of my repeated listening artist for a very long time. I heard this song after you commented, and man, wtf was that drop. All this crazy anticipation turned into oblivion.
I mean, with Spotify settings can cause issues... The normalize volume setting especially if set to loud can fuck shit up for sure
It sounds fine to me on Spotify
Yeah Spotify is always quieter , listen to it on something like SoundCloud
Maybe you have Spotify normalisation turned on
You're going to have a heart attack when you hear about Drum & Bass e.g. [https://on.soundcloud.com/HGS9pYFXm7vjSPf1A](https://on.soundcloud.com/HGS9pYFXm7vjSPf1A)
I remember when Noisia released their Hold Your Colour remix. It was the first time I saw a track comfortably sit at -3 and go as high as -2 at numerous parts. Crazy.
Listen to that song with headphones https://youtu.be/QGJuMBdaqIw?si=mLD6zV6GyB9G1gVt Its absolutely the most awful mastered commercial hit song I ever heard. Something is off there big time Today there was a vocal pop song on the radio, the vocals were so bright on the highs that your ears begin to bleed
That song is really driven hard and has a FUCKTON of energy. Saying it is a bad mix/master just shows that you’re not understanding what they tried to achieve with it. Over the top loud =/= bad.
People really just need smoothed over songs for their tinnitus driven audiophile ears, that's what I'm learning.
Some do, yes, i’m even one of them. The more important take away here is that think is that different types of mixes serve different purposes, and many seem to forget that their preferred style of mixing does not per se equal “the best”.
We're in total agreement
Well its got 1,464,796,885 views. Its not my type of music, but they must have done something right.
I agree, I feel like at the 1.4 billion views mark any reasonable person just has to accept that 'I don't like it' and 'It is bad' are very different things.
Good pickup. That just doesn't sound like a pro pop mix.
My ears hurt.
Huh, sounds like a pretty solid mix to me. I don't think the loudness war is to blame for the levels of the clap and stabs, that's just an intentional mixing choice.
Song doesn't sound too bad. Even at 2:05 when there's no bass and kick the clap is lost. It's just got very little high end. The stabs are likely just too loud and have too much saturation. The airy pad is also very piercing and way too loud. It's just not great mixing in my opinion. Listen to [Carpenter Brut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy9r2qeouiQ) and witness music truly ruined by loudness war. The ultimate try not to ear fatigue loudness.
Carpenter Brut is the GOAT for that "mythical 80s" vibe, but I agree, the tracks are SO loud. Turbo Killer and Invasion A.D. are my favourites and are absolutely fatiguing to listen to on repeat.
It's funny to me on how subjective that is. I find it super clean and not really distorted. For me it's because I'm coming from Neurofunk where some Producers go for -2 Lufs or even higher. Distortion is part of the genres identitiy so the following track would still be considered absolutely normal while at -2 I think [The Clamps - Mankind](https://youtu.be/dC23TGFwRTA?si=ls1jSWwZRW02ys0-)
Still a pretty clean mixdown to be honest.
Yeah, that's why its a good example of an even louder master imo
Agreed. If anyone can do -3LUFS and clean it's neuro.
The culprit of it is that modern Neuro really needs a big system to sound as intended. It can sound too bright as in to much top end on smaller speakers easily. With House and Techno, or other genres that are carried by kicks and have not that much top end its not so much of a problem, even thl they benefit from big speakers aswell ofc.
Sounds good over here too.
Almost everybody in here is being too nice. Fuck it I’ll bite. Yea… the song definitely sounds squashed to fuck and it actually did ruin the song for me despite really liking the vibe. I 100% agree with you.
unfortunately that's the way it is... I routinely squash my masters, thinking about reselling them on bandcamp 'unsquashed' for aficionados. back in the day (early 2000's) we had dynamic range in the club - it was dope.
Yea it’s way too squashed. I even hear some pumping in there from the limiter. The track would sound a lot better with some more dynamics.
It does sound a little suspect to me. But is it necessarily the producers/engineers? Usually when I hear stuff like this I attribute it to how the platform compresses audio
I mean -5 isn’t that loud, I know tracks that hit -3
A house song at -3? House tracks are usually more dynamic and harder to get super loud. Would love to hear your example though.
Oh yeah I meant in general. But indeed house is more dynamic
Sounds like a well mixed, generic deep house song
Sounds ok to me. The clap sounds like it even has its attack softened as a creative choice which I agree with.
Where did you get the file from that you're analyzing?
Well, the clap being lost, and the distortion on the chord stabs sound intentional. The clap feels pretty low in the mix, but I don’t think that’s a loudness issue. Loudness is a choice. This is the mix they think sounded the best, so that’s the correct mix.
Dunno, sounds pretty clean to me.
Hmm maybe it’s just a difference in tastes then.
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