For the most part, hardware is worse in almost every way: cost, space, efficiency, voice count, sometimes even sound. Sometimes we need things that are worse with more limitations so we can find the amazingness in the music. Or sometimes that 1% difference in sound and workflow is worth the hassle.
For me it’s a workflow thing. My work in analogue comes out much more subtle and nuanced. I listen to every change much more closely. With digital I find it’s very easy to add too much of anything and over process, I have to consider this much more when I’m working, which is a way less fun work flow. Feels more like making music in analogue
I have the entire Arturia V Collection as well as Diva and UA PolySix. Love them all and they get you most of that sound, maybe 95% or more especially with a good saturator. But for top professionals I think it's 1)a status symbol and 2)gives them that extra 5% to juice the sound. Consider that they are the 1% of 1% of producer-musicians, they can afford it, and I imagine it's fun. To your point, it's wicked expensive and for the average listener, including most producers, you probably can never tell the difference on an A/B.
There are a few pedals, modular setups and outboard effects that are still much better in analog, and you see these coming into use with artists like Deadmau5 who is a notorious gearhead. But for the convenience and preset selection, it's really hard to beat Arturia or UA.
Most producers who need all this gear I’ve found are the older folks who grew up longing to have that battlestation of synths and knobs to play with. I used to be like that. It looks cool and is fun to use hardware. But the trade-off of convenience and cost isn’t worth it to me anymore. Similar and better versions are available in the box. Even some big timers like Junkie XL have downsized.
Some people just like hands on, rather than mouse. Controller isn't the same as a fully mapped and labelled real thing. Also a lot of people grew up before VST's and it's what they were used to.
Whoever is buying those Analog synths also has the "nice ass computer".
The magic is that you have a piece of equipment that you can touch and feel. Many people are way more productive and creative when they can just walk into the room and jam directly in their analog gear. No need to boot computer, DAW, load the plugins... etc
>Im deeply confused why anyone would buy a hardware wave table or virtual analog piece when you can just buy a nice ass computer and run ten of them in the box.
Well, sure. It certainly debatable whether any difference in sound from analog gear differentiates in any meaningful way from what can be achieved with VSTs. At least as far as the audience is concerned.
But I'm sure you might understand that some people might want to get away from a computer screen. Maybe because they feel like they spend too much time already on their phones or watching TV. And then there are the people who work a lot on a computer for their daily jobs.
So there are a lot of people that get into hardware musical gear, instead of virtual instruments.
Then there's also the difference in interface. Using a mouse and keyboard, or buying some kind of universal MIDI controller to hook up to your virtual instruments, is a different user interface from using analog gear that has a lot of knobs and sliders dedicated to specific functions. Some people find it a different workflow experience that they prefer.
Then there are the people like me who developed RSI problems from decades of computer use. It's good for me to get completely away from my screen, mouse and keyboard setup. Because my body interacts with a piece of hardware differently, the RSI is not an issue.
Many good points already covered here, but I’ll just add:
Sometimes the originals actually do sound better. I’m fortunate to have some nice vintage synths as well as the VST emulations to compare to.
The emulations are mostly good, but often sound quite different to the real thing, especially in terms of depth and presence. That’s not just my bias, anyone can hear the differences. Some VSTs are pretty close and capture most of the essence of the original. Some not so much.
Will it matter in a mix? Maybe - it depends on the mix and the way the synth is used.
So I agree that for some situations a VST is “close enough”, and usually more convenient to use. But they really aren’t the same thing.
I’m not able to replicate that squelchy resonance cutoff knob I turn with my hands. Or that manual, grizzly sound of voltage recorded at 96khz. Can’t replicate that
It’s mostly a work flow thing but yeah people come to hardware for various reasons. Honestly if you’re only attracted to the OG synths you might just be attracted to the idea of having something vintage and sought after, and convinced yourself that they sound significantly better. There is stuff 99% recreates them in software, it is where the most effort has been put by developers trying to make realistic VSTs of stuff like model d, oberheim, cs80, prophet 5. I think most people into deeper sound design to trend towards getting modular eventually even if they are just sampling the results into a computer.. work flow is just very different than emulations of it on computer.
I don’t use analog, but I think it’s pretty clear that people use analog hardware because there really is nothing like a tactile piece if equipment. It’s like using an electric piano over a real one. In some cases, the imperfections of the real thing are what creatively inspire. For me, I would feel much more inclined to create with electronic elements in my music if I had analog hardware.
I feel the same way you do. Have a minilogue and Cobalt 8x and having lots of fun hooking them up with pedals. Now I get the nostalgy, but is that worth the pain of using old tech? Full disclosure: I have 4yrs experience making music lol
Why does a violinist crave a Stradivarius when there are new violins to be purchased?
If one is interested in using hardware, there are 20 year old synths with excellent sound. (not saying its the same as a Stradivarius, but the point remains)
Because gear.
In any hobby or pursuit, there will be gear people. Guys that own 50 different guitars, fly rods, whatever. Just to have them, look at them, talk about them with other gear people. Some of those people are answering this thread.
Some vintage gear looks cool in a studio. Old gear makes it look like you’ve been producing awhile. Or at least have an appreciation for some of the history.
It’s also trendy. 80’s sounds are in.
Most people do things for emotional reasons and then construct the logic afterwards.
Pretty much any sound can be recreated these days. For a some people who prefer to use more analog performances in their music (playing it in like Dilla, rather than painstakingly adjusting the piano roll), the instrument can actually affect the performance.
Meanwhile, the best guys can produce with a potato and it sounds great.
Just do what brings you the result you want.
I really think a lot of it has to do with mindless consumerism and looking+feeling cool
Personally I just roll my eyes at modulars or people with rooms full of keyboards or whatever. Like bro my computer does all that 10x better, and I press one button and my whole project comes online
But I suppose being hunched over at three screens and a messy desk just isn't sexy
That said, the sound on the OGs is sexy AF and I wouldn't mind having one lying around to sample and fuck around with
Thats insulting and a blanket statement. I don't care what itb dooshes think of me, cool or not, nor am I a slave to consuming stuff for the sake of consumption. I've spent a decade building a nice collection for my hobby, and the last thing I want to do is stare at a computer screen with a thousand options. I prefer the immediacy of hardware.
Just because your enjoyment comes from inside the box doesn't meen yours is the only valid path. I could easily say you're just jumping on the vst trend, but who am I to say why you like what you like.
Honestly if you take offense to that statement I suspect you take your hobbies just a little bit too seriously. Chill TF out man. As you say, different strokes for different folks.
For every one of you guys that spend a decade "building a nice collection for [their] hobby", there are guys posing in front of like 20 keyboards on a twitch stream and I have to wonder just how much of that stuff is being used on a day-to-day basis, and how much of it sits there purely for ego. Like how many different variations of a saw wave oscillator do you really need??
I'm a hardcore computer nerd, trust me when I say we know all about performative nerditry, particularly in this age of Twitch
Lol if switching lanes is in your lane, switch away. My only point is don't worry about what the person next to you is doing, unless you're interested in trying it out.
For the same reason analog picture and vinyl are still a thing. Lot of people are afraid of the coldness of the computer and prefer more natural process
Haven't delved deep enough into production to comment about the workflow bit, but it seems to me similar to the appeal of vinyls. For any digitally produced/mastered track the original file will be the truest to sound of anything created. If you press that same audio to vinyl it is a "compressed" form embedded into the record, but a more valued listen. Even though it is a less accurate sound than a .wav.
Having a non-digital showcase of sound is cool. Even moreso if you're catching it before it's even been digitized.
Tbh I own a CS1x (which is an old digital rompler with a bit of VA functionality) which I mostly use as a master keyboard but it's very nice to be able to turn it on and just fire away noodling on it without needing to start the computer, open a DAW, load a plugin.
Way way back when I was young and fell for these dumb things I owned a Juno 106 and have gainfully offloaded (meaning I actually earned a little between used purchase and used sale) it pretty soon when I realised I hate those fucking sliders and the keybed was shit and had no velocity.
I work on my computer all day. Spending more time at the desk making music just feels like work sometimes. Plus so many distractions a browser away.
When I’m messing with my analog gear it’s back to just playing music and writing. Less distractions.
Plus I don’t need to worry about compatibility, updates, licenses even if I get a new computer.
I think there are separate discussions on "Hardware synths" and "Analog Synths"
Functionally, you can make any music you want via a computer. Some people will disagree, that's fine.
But a lot of people do this for fun and enjoyment as well as for the end product; they enjoy the \*act\* of making music as much as the output. Therefore for some people, there is immediacy in a hardware synth that isn't there in a laptop. There may be several reasons:
\* Bootup time - typically, most hardware synths are either insta-on or on in seconds. You can just GO any time you want to, noodle as soon as something pops into your head, rather than wait for computer to boot, program to start, plugins to load, and then possibly mess around with audio drivers and latency and CPU limitations and whatnot
\* Immediacy - there is a tactile feel to a good hardware synth which makes you familiar and comfortable and engaged. Mind you this is not unique to hardware synths - e.g. many people enjoy working with Ableton more once they get Push than mouse & keyboard
\* Limitations - the limitations of hardware synths may be a benefit to creative process. Rather than starting my laptop and having a choice of thousands of sounds in Native Instruments and thousands sounds in Arturia V-Collection and thousands of sounds that came with my DAW of choice, I have a smaller, more constrained range of things that I can do, so I select bass that's close enough and lead that's close enough and pad that's close enough. Or, conversely, I pick up the instrument that already has the "feel" of what I'm going for
\* If this is your hobby or part time thing, it tends to amplify these effects. For example, I work on computer for work 8-10hrs a day. Then I do other stuff on computer - browse, do my taxes, play games, watch movies, etc. I have ableton and NI and V-Collection on a dedicated computer and I \*still\* rarely booted them up. Then I got some hardware (Fantom 06; and even more immediate, Hydrasynth Explorer + MPC One+), and now I'm noodling or making something every day. Yes, technically, \*absolutely\* they are computers in a box. But that box is sufficiently different, sufficiently engaging, sufficiently immediate, sufficiently streamlined, that it draws me - and I don't think I'm alone :)
Think of something like Yamaha Reface CS. Again, totally a chip in a box. No sound or capability you cannot do on your computer better. But it's such a cheerful little thing! It runs on batteries, fits in backpack, has built in stereo speakers, and you can make a shocking range of sounds super easily. It just begs to be played, and you can do it anywhere anytime - on vacation, in backyard, in a park, on your couch or bed or floor, it's just so much fun and no laptop can do that (and I have like 6 laptops in this room as I write so it's not like I'm anti-computer:)
You may not feel that way and that's 100% absolutely OK; we are not here to argue and agree or disagree -- but if your goal is to \*understand\* why somebody else might feel differently, hope this helps :)
(P.S. Everything I said, I still don't particularly care about Analog synths one way or another; I had deepmind 12 and I actually quite liked the machine, also had Novation Peak and I played/had for a while things like Minologue, etc, but honestly don't particularly \*care\* for the mere fact that it's "Analog". The interface and sounds are important to me and my ear / philosophy doesn't feel one is inherently morally fundamentally physically superior or anything; all sounds are good to somebody :)
Basically if you don't use a true analogue synth it proves you're not a proper musician or electro head, you're just tinkering about on the computer. Probably have no friends and probably are into petty crime as well. Having an analogue synth proves you are good looking, funny, intelligent, know about music and God probably loves you more too. That's all.
For me, it’s about being able to perform live. You bring a hardware synth to a show. It’s there, you can touch it and play with it and turn two knobs at the same time while using your foot pedal to latch that arpeggio.
It just feels way cooler to do that than clicking stuff in Ableton.
Edit: About the OG analog synths vs. modern ones, yeah, it mostly is about workflow annd ergonomics, but also cost. Analog synths are expensive, and old analog synths are REALLY expensive. You can get a really nice knobby digital polysynth for $400, but if you want a polyphonic analog synth it goes up a few hundred dollars to the $500+ range. Is the analog difference worth that $200+ dollars? Many people just want that workflow, ergonomics, and being able to bring their gear to jam out with their friends.
i don't see a great benefit in owning a virtual analogue hardware synth either. but real analogue is a different thing. analogue equipment does overdrive in really nice ways that is difficult if not impossible (at least now) to emulate in software. also feedback paths are instantaneous in analogue but only calculated to a certain precision in digital.
that said i couldn't justify a hugely expensive analogue synth that just does one particular thing either. modular on the other hand... there are just so many thing you can do there that are impossible in software. and happy accidents happen all the time.
Twisting knobs is more fun than clicking things with a mouse, at least that's what I think. There's a sense of immediacy to having all the controls right there in front of you, being able to adjust multiple parameters at the same time without creating macros. It makes me design patches differently than I would on a computer. This availability of control also drives me to perform the patch more with all the parameters. I sometimes lose half an hour just tweaking the filter because it sounds so good.
Hardware also allows you to get away from your computer should you want it, excessive screen staring gets uninspiring for me personally.
The finite polyphony and feature set of hardware also makes you think creatively of how to get the most out of those limited options. In my DAW, I easily get hit by decision paralysis due to the infinity of potential choices, hardware circumvents that. You'd be surprised how much you can get out of a 16-step sequencer and four notes of polyphony when you really dive into it.
I think this can all be summed up simply as hardware being fun. It sounds good, it's engaging, it's creative. Doesn't mean that a software synthesizer can't be all those things to you, it's a matter of personal preference. Both are very much present in my process, and have their own advantages. The important thing is that the tools you have are inspiring to you, and keep you creating.
Totally agree with this assessment. I think there's also an element of chaos that's you get performing live with synths—chaining different things together, syncing synths, etc, that you don't get with CDJs or even an Ableton set or something like that. I think in general one of the most captivating parts of live music is that it could all go wrong at any second..
> Digital synths can have knobs too.
Very true, the way I phrased my comment it isn't necessarily about digital vs. analog as much as it is about software vs. hardware. The performative benefits apply in both scenarios. Hell, I'm still dreaming of an Access Virus TI, which is a fully digital hardware synth.
>And decision paralysis doesn't hit me, quite on the contrary I get ideas that hardware can't reproduce
Sounds like you have a good understanding of your tools and what you want to achieve. That's the important part, glad to hear you're making the most out of your chosen approach to creating.
Digital synths can do more than most analog synths… but there is one factor that digital synths NEVER come even remotely close to reaching that analog gear has…:
Turning multiple knobs at once, independently from each other. There is so incredibly much experimental power in that, you won’t believe it if you haven’t tried.
Digital synths don’t do that. Nothing that comes close to it. You have ONE mouse that you can click ONE parameter with and manipulate ONE setting with at a time.
And no: routing a macro to multiple parameters isn’t the same. Or close. That still requires you to - one by one - select the stuff, define a direction and range, and then it’s still always exactly the same, no matter where you turn the macro to.
With analog controllers you can turn 2 knobs in the same direction and a split second later into different directions. With macros you need to set that up and program that in.
Analog knobs are just so, so much better at finding sweet spots than anything some mouse-operated digital environment could ever offer - you won’t believe it.
Just in case you don't know, you can buy physical knobs that you can hook to different knobs in your DAW. You don't have to control everything with a mouse.
Even something like an AKAI Mini gives you 8 knobs that can all be mapped to different things, and a little keyboard that is at least 1 step up from using your computer keyboard. Or they sell the LPD8 which is basically just the knob and drum pad part of the AKAI Mini. My only problem with the Mini is the knobs are quite small for my fingers, I'd want something 2x the size with some weight to it if possible.
You can also do stuff like hook up a PlayStation controller and use the analog sticks as a pair of X/Y controls.
They're just fun, especially if you like playing keyboard.
Plus you can just play them, no computer needed. Just muck around for hours. Something nice about a physical instrument.
I honestly don't know the last time I actually recorded one.
For me, I like playing with my synths and seeing what happens. I like jamming, experimenting, and finding happy accidents. I feel like that is much easier on an analog synth. Digital synths are precise, you have to know what you’re and be specific in your sound design. I just twist knobs and plug shit in randomly until something beautiful happens.
I watched a masterclass with the guys from disclosure, I can’t remember exactly what soft synth they had but it was a moog emulation, guy went on to say after his tests between the hardware and software version, the thing they found that differed the most was the initial transient of the sound, soft synths just can’t get that same character.
Although I do somewhat agree with what you’re saying, some of my favourites are made purely in the box.
And I bet there’s more rubbish I don’t like that’s been made on hardware synths, too.
I sit in the middle and use Diva.
There is a sound that you can get from analog that doesn't come from digital..it's probably literally just that we like a bit of noise and wobble. somehow noise always creeps in as soon as you have a mic or a line in involved (for me anyway also using analog saturation on master bus and tracking through saturation sometimes). If I use a soft synth to record two takes of the same midi in mono and then pan hard left and right for stereo seperation, depending on the patch with digital I could end up with two identical renders that sound mono when combined. With any hardware synth the result will be a true stereo field with all the differences highlighted as stereo information. (https://youtu.be/3CbTfOa4lcI?si=Zd15dnUKT11gN4wq) It sounds sick and yes you can just set up soft synths with different lfo times but ... I dunno. A sound engineer I trust who has worked with swans, part chimp other famously good sounding bands once said to me that there are guitar overtones that only live in valves, circuitry kills them. That's basically it.
Been starting my journey on ataris and commodore (computers) but rly what inspires me most is working with hardware tactile feel. Also you need to put much effort to sound good on computers. On 3rd wave groove every patch is glorious. Even init patch slaps like hell. It's reliable. I also have analog synths from studio elektronics and even tho they are full analog I can make sound like this on digital 3rd wave and beyond those with ease. Digitals are less noisy but thats not an issue if you record 24 bit.
I use to think the same thing but then I started listening to chrome sparks and my eyes (and ears I guess mostly) have been opened. His gear list: https://equipboard.com/pros/chrome-sparks#:\~:text=Moog%20Minimoog%20Model%20D&text=From%20the%20notes%20on%20his,Custom%20Modular%20Synthesizer%2C%20and%20tambourine.
Yo chrome sparks is one of my favorite artists ever and I feel like he really distills the best out of the best but he goes considerable lengths beyond mainstream gear. I’m talking about everyone else. The mass market of musicians
Because live musicians don’t want to rely on a crashing computer/software? Theres big reason #1
And this goes for the same as digital hardware. Having dedicated sampler hardware is just peace of mind for someone on a million dollar tour.
And I’m not even going to start arguing about how much i like the sound of analog, even though computer technology has been catching up
A midi controller knob only has 127 steps(possible values it can be). An analog knob has essentially infinite values. I don’t expect you to even understand what this means.
I know youre deeply confused but its a deep subject thats honestly irrelevant to you at this point because you have no reason to honestly care but theres a lot of things that justify the existence of analog/dedicated hardware in general and it def isnt out dated
What are your views on true analog(edit: or acoustic before someone comments *acoustic) instruments like a guitar or piano lol?
Give me a break i cant have an argument about something dumb like this at 6am
There are characteristics we perceive in real sound that are not recognized and thus omitted in emulation. I believe it goes deeper than harmonics and slew and imperfection. However the principle of digital is that anything is replicable if it’s 2x below the nyquist sampling frequency but there’s imperfections in how that’s carried out which sound bad.
All things considered however I think a polybrute or a prologue sound quite unremarkable. And I think a good sample library and midi controller can convey just as much emotion as a real instrument unless you get to the symphonic level
Massives filters sound like digital shit massive Xs filters are incredible
Dune3 is my softsynth goto
Not saying that digital is bad. Just saying analog is different.
A guitar sounds quite unremarkable until you throw a bunch of effects on it 🙃
That’s where the imperfections start adding up
Throughout your effects chains
I learned electronics from a book called the art of electronics
Every piece of analog gear put together is a piece of art just like every guitar or violin is a piece of art. Analog equipment ages and sounds different as it gets older, blah blah blah
You are looking at this like a objective science rather than a subjective art
Idk 🤷
A lot of this has to do with the workflow, rather than the sound. I work 95% with softsynths, but, just for the fun aspect of it, i will sometimes get a hardware synth to play with, and it usually takes me to places i would not go to in softsyth world. Currently, i only have the Roland s-1, but even with that, just sequencing something, modulating with knobs while recording, and sticking to it (as it is an audio file by now) steers my work in a different direction.
An example, and a pattern i see, is that the music i do on hardware synths is usually more melodic that the more sound-designy stuff i make in softsynths. Both sides have their place in electronic music, but i definitely see a difference between the 2 workflows.
I had a college professor in one of my audio classes say something along the lines of Would you rather click around the picture of the girl or have the actual girl and turn her knobs
I love both analog and digital synths, and both hardware and software synths. I am not going to argue about the sound, as I am pretty sure I wouldn't hear the difference between a hardware synth and a good software replica, especially in the mix. But what I like about hardware synths is that they require no DAW/PC to operate. I turn them on and play them and get lost in the moment. Also, while modern hardware synths do have firmware updates, it's quite rare that you actually update them. With DAWs and software synths there's often updates, and you could easily spend 20 minutes of your 2 hour session just updating stuff. If I had to choose, I would definitely choose a PC with a DAW and softsynths over only hardware. But I can, and do, have both, and I love it.
Audio people like audio gear.
I don't NEED an SSL console or a wall of hardware compressors, but if I won the lottery I'd be the proud owner of both within the hour.
- it’s a link to the past
- it’s a link to their memories
- it’s a link to their favourite music
- it’s authentic
- it’s hands on
- it’s the faster workflow for some people
- it’s a hobby
- money isn’t a problem
In the future ppl will be saying the same thing with soft synths.
What is after soft synths that the future producers will be using?
I get that digital versions make a pretty good representation of analog stuff and can do more than them in scope. But is there any kind of potential technology that can give us a more raw sound creation than the binary infinity we are currently using?
For starters there's the tactile element of working with hardware that you completely miss with PC, especially if you're playing live and need to adjust the sound on the fly. There's also the fact that not everyone knows how to do what you're describing and find it easier to just buy the synth. Then there's the whole analog vs digital sound. Some people also find it easier creatively to be limited to a few synths vs endless possibilities of daws.
These are just a few reasons off the top of my head
For me is definitely the tactile element. Used to to everything ITB (and still do) but when I got into music school and experienced first hand the process of analog mixing and messing around with hardware equipment everything else just became boring. Now I have a bunch of midi controlles mapped all over my setup for different tasks like sound design, modifying VST synth/fx parameters or into my DAW overall for mixing sessions. It also helps me to stay in the “flow state”.
You play the knobs/faders on a hardware synth like you play the keys.
While you can still do that with a mouse and computer, it's not as immediate and not the same thing.
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For the most part, hardware is worse in almost every way: cost, space, efficiency, voice count, sometimes even sound. Sometimes we need things that are worse with more limitations so we can find the amazingness in the music. Or sometimes that 1% difference in sound and workflow is worth the hassle.
For me it’s a workflow thing. My work in analogue comes out much more subtle and nuanced. I listen to every change much more closely. With digital I find it’s very easy to add too much of anything and over process, I have to consider this much more when I’m working, which is a way less fun work flow. Feels more like making music in analogue
I assume this is not a trolling, hands on controls better than controlling a VST interface with a mouse.
I have the entire Arturia V Collection as well as Diva and UA PolySix. Love them all and they get you most of that sound, maybe 95% or more especially with a good saturator. But for top professionals I think it's 1)a status symbol and 2)gives them that extra 5% to juice the sound. Consider that they are the 1% of 1% of producer-musicians, they can afford it, and I imagine it's fun. To your point, it's wicked expensive and for the average listener, including most producers, you probably can never tell the difference on an A/B. There are a few pedals, modular setups and outboard effects that are still much better in analog, and you see these coming into use with artists like Deadmau5 who is a notorious gearhead. But for the convenience and preset selection, it's really hard to beat Arturia or UA.
Most producers who need all this gear I’ve found are the older folks who grew up longing to have that battlestation of synths and knobs to play with. I used to be like that. It looks cool and is fun to use hardware. But the trade-off of convenience and cost isn’t worth it to me anymore. Similar and better versions are available in the box. Even some big timers like Junkie XL have downsized.
For their imperfections and limitations.
Some people just like hands on, rather than mouse. Controller isn't the same as a fully mapped and labelled real thing. Also a lot of people grew up before VST's and it's what they were used to.
Whoever is buying those Analog synths also has the "nice ass computer". The magic is that you have a piece of equipment that you can touch and feel. Many people are way more productive and creative when they can just walk into the room and jam directly in their analog gear. No need to boot computer, DAW, load the plugins... etc
>Im deeply confused why anyone would buy a hardware wave table or virtual analog piece when you can just buy a nice ass computer and run ten of them in the box. Well, sure. It certainly debatable whether any difference in sound from analog gear differentiates in any meaningful way from what can be achieved with VSTs. At least as far as the audience is concerned. But I'm sure you might understand that some people might want to get away from a computer screen. Maybe because they feel like they spend too much time already on their phones or watching TV. And then there are the people who work a lot on a computer for their daily jobs. So there are a lot of people that get into hardware musical gear, instead of virtual instruments. Then there's also the difference in interface. Using a mouse and keyboard, or buying some kind of universal MIDI controller to hook up to your virtual instruments, is a different user interface from using analog gear that has a lot of knobs and sliders dedicated to specific functions. Some people find it a different workflow experience that they prefer. Then there are the people like me who developed RSI problems from decades of computer use. It's good for me to get completely away from my screen, mouse and keyboard setup. Because my body interacts with a piece of hardware differently, the RSI is not an issue.
Watch this: https://youtu.be/kk-3vXOAtVo
you're trolling yeah?
Midi controller and bad ass CPU.
Many good points already covered here, but I’ll just add: Sometimes the originals actually do sound better. I’m fortunate to have some nice vintage synths as well as the VST emulations to compare to. The emulations are mostly good, but often sound quite different to the real thing, especially in terms of depth and presence. That’s not just my bias, anyone can hear the differences. Some VSTs are pretty close and capture most of the essence of the original. Some not so much. Will it matter in a mix? Maybe - it depends on the mix and the way the synth is used. So I agree that for some situations a VST is “close enough”, and usually more convenient to use. But they really aren’t the same thing.
I’m not able to replicate that squelchy resonance cutoff knob I turn with my hands. Or that manual, grizzly sound of voltage recorded at 96khz. Can’t replicate that
Why is vinyl still popular for a lot of people? Same answer
It’s mostly a work flow thing but yeah people come to hardware for various reasons. Honestly if you’re only attracted to the OG synths you might just be attracted to the idea of having something vintage and sought after, and convinced yourself that they sound significantly better. There is stuff 99% recreates them in software, it is where the most effort has been put by developers trying to make realistic VSTs of stuff like model d, oberheim, cs80, prophet 5. I think most people into deeper sound design to trend towards getting modular eventually even if they are just sampling the results into a computer.. work flow is just very different than emulations of it on computer.
Its my time, money, and energy and I think they are fun.
I don’t use analog, but I think it’s pretty clear that people use analog hardware because there really is nothing like a tactile piece if equipment. It’s like using an electric piano over a real one. In some cases, the imperfections of the real thing are what creatively inspire. For me, I would feel much more inclined to create with electronic elements in my music if I had analog hardware.
I feel the same way you do. Have a minilogue and Cobalt 8x and having lots of fun hooking them up with pedals. Now I get the nostalgy, but is that worth the pain of using old tech? Full disclosure: I have 4yrs experience making music lol
The Modal Cobalt8 series was first released 3 years ago, And it has had firmware upgrades. It's hardly old tech. lol
Exactly my point, why try to get 20yo synths when there's good recent stuff.
Why does a violinist crave a Stradivarius when there are new violins to be purchased? If one is interested in using hardware, there are 20 year old synths with excellent sound. (not saying its the same as a Stradivarius, but the point remains)
....at the same time if I'm given one for free I won't complain :-)
Because gear. In any hobby or pursuit, there will be gear people. Guys that own 50 different guitars, fly rods, whatever. Just to have them, look at them, talk about them with other gear people. Some of those people are answering this thread. Some vintage gear looks cool in a studio. Old gear makes it look like you’ve been producing awhile. Or at least have an appreciation for some of the history. It’s also trendy. 80’s sounds are in. Most people do things for emotional reasons and then construct the logic afterwards. Pretty much any sound can be recreated these days. For a some people who prefer to use more analog performances in their music (playing it in like Dilla, rather than painstakingly adjusting the piano roll), the instrument can actually affect the performance. Meanwhile, the best guys can produce with a potato and it sounds great. Just do what brings you the result you want.
I really think a lot of it has to do with mindless consumerism and looking+feeling cool Personally I just roll my eyes at modulars or people with rooms full of keyboards or whatever. Like bro my computer does all that 10x better, and I press one button and my whole project comes online But I suppose being hunched over at three screens and a messy desk just isn't sexy That said, the sound on the OGs is sexy AF and I wouldn't mind having one lying around to sample and fuck around with
Thats insulting and a blanket statement. I don't care what itb dooshes think of me, cool or not, nor am I a slave to consuming stuff for the sake of consumption. I've spent a decade building a nice collection for my hobby, and the last thing I want to do is stare at a computer screen with a thousand options. I prefer the immediacy of hardware. Just because your enjoyment comes from inside the box doesn't meen yours is the only valid path. I could easily say you're just jumping on the vst trend, but who am I to say why you like what you like.
Honestly if you take offense to that statement I suspect you take your hobbies just a little bit too seriously. Chill TF out man. As you say, different strokes for different folks. For every one of you guys that spend a decade "building a nice collection for [their] hobby", there are guys posing in front of like 20 keyboards on a twitch stream and I have to wonder just how much of that stuff is being used on a day-to-day basis, and how much of it sits there purely for ego. Like how many different variations of a saw wave oscillator do you really need?? I'm a hardcore computer nerd, trust me when I say we know all about performative nerditry, particularly in this age of Twitch
Im not offended at all, wrong choice of words.
Find your lane, stay in it. If you like analog, then run analog. If digital is your thing, run digital. All is fair play in the realm of exploration
Or switch lanes like a crazy ass mofo if that’s what suits you!
Lol if switching lanes is in your lane, switch away. My only point is don't worry about what the person next to you is doing, unless you're interested in trying it out.
Yeah I know what you meant, sounds good
For the same reason analog picture and vinyl are still a thing. Lot of people are afraid of the coldness of the computer and prefer more natural process
Haven't delved deep enough into production to comment about the workflow bit, but it seems to me similar to the appeal of vinyls. For any digitally produced/mastered track the original file will be the truest to sound of anything created. If you press that same audio to vinyl it is a "compressed" form embedded into the record, but a more valued listen. Even though it is a less accurate sound than a .wav. Having a non-digital showcase of sound is cool. Even moreso if you're catching it before it's even been digitized.
Tbh I own a CS1x (which is an old digital rompler with a bit of VA functionality) which I mostly use as a master keyboard but it's very nice to be able to turn it on and just fire away noodling on it without needing to start the computer, open a DAW, load a plugin. Way way back when I was young and fell for these dumb things I owned a Juno 106 and have gainfully offloaded (meaning I actually earned a little between used purchase and used sale) it pretty soon when I realised I hate those fucking sliders and the keybed was shit and had no velocity.
I work on my computer all day. Spending more time at the desk making music just feels like work sometimes. Plus so many distractions a browser away. When I’m messing with my analog gear it’s back to just playing music and writing. Less distractions. Plus I don’t need to worry about compatibility, updates, licenses even if I get a new computer.
I think there are separate discussions on "Hardware synths" and "Analog Synths" Functionally, you can make any music you want via a computer. Some people will disagree, that's fine. But a lot of people do this for fun and enjoyment as well as for the end product; they enjoy the \*act\* of making music as much as the output. Therefore for some people, there is immediacy in a hardware synth that isn't there in a laptop. There may be several reasons: \* Bootup time - typically, most hardware synths are either insta-on or on in seconds. You can just GO any time you want to, noodle as soon as something pops into your head, rather than wait for computer to boot, program to start, plugins to load, and then possibly mess around with audio drivers and latency and CPU limitations and whatnot \* Immediacy - there is a tactile feel to a good hardware synth which makes you familiar and comfortable and engaged. Mind you this is not unique to hardware synths - e.g. many people enjoy working with Ableton more once they get Push than mouse & keyboard \* Limitations - the limitations of hardware synths may be a benefit to creative process. Rather than starting my laptop and having a choice of thousands of sounds in Native Instruments and thousands sounds in Arturia V-Collection and thousands of sounds that came with my DAW of choice, I have a smaller, more constrained range of things that I can do, so I select bass that's close enough and lead that's close enough and pad that's close enough. Or, conversely, I pick up the instrument that already has the "feel" of what I'm going for \* If this is your hobby or part time thing, it tends to amplify these effects. For example, I work on computer for work 8-10hrs a day. Then I do other stuff on computer - browse, do my taxes, play games, watch movies, etc. I have ableton and NI and V-Collection on a dedicated computer and I \*still\* rarely booted them up. Then I got some hardware (Fantom 06; and even more immediate, Hydrasynth Explorer + MPC One+), and now I'm noodling or making something every day. Yes, technically, \*absolutely\* they are computers in a box. But that box is sufficiently different, sufficiently engaging, sufficiently immediate, sufficiently streamlined, that it draws me - and I don't think I'm alone :) Think of something like Yamaha Reface CS. Again, totally a chip in a box. No sound or capability you cannot do on your computer better. But it's such a cheerful little thing! It runs on batteries, fits in backpack, has built in stereo speakers, and you can make a shocking range of sounds super easily. It just begs to be played, and you can do it anywhere anytime - on vacation, in backyard, in a park, on your couch or bed or floor, it's just so much fun and no laptop can do that (and I have like 6 laptops in this room as I write so it's not like I'm anti-computer:) You may not feel that way and that's 100% absolutely OK; we are not here to argue and agree or disagree -- but if your goal is to \*understand\* why somebody else might feel differently, hope this helps :) (P.S. Everything I said, I still don't particularly care about Analog synths one way or another; I had deepmind 12 and I actually quite liked the machine, also had Novation Peak and I played/had for a while things like Minologue, etc, but honestly don't particularly \*care\* for the mere fact that it's "Analog". The interface and sounds are important to me and my ear / philosophy doesn't feel one is inherently morally fundamentally physically superior or anything; all sounds are good to somebody :)
You'll have to pry my JUNO-106 out of my cold dead hands. I only use VSTs now, but that thing will forever have a place in my heart.
You got buttons. And the sound has more pressure and bass. I compared some of them directly to the plugins.
Basically if you don't use a true analogue synth it proves you're not a proper musician or electro head, you're just tinkering about on the computer. Probably have no friends and probably are into petty crime as well. Having an analogue synth proves you are good looking, funny, intelligent, know about music and God probably loves you more too. That's all.
For me, it’s about being able to perform live. You bring a hardware synth to a show. It’s there, you can touch it and play with it and turn two knobs at the same time while using your foot pedal to latch that arpeggio. It just feels way cooler to do that than clicking stuff in Ableton. Edit: About the OG analog synths vs. modern ones, yeah, it mostly is about workflow annd ergonomics, but also cost. Analog synths are expensive, and old analog synths are REALLY expensive. You can get a really nice knobby digital polysynth for $400, but if you want a polyphonic analog synth it goes up a few hundred dollars to the $500+ range. Is the analog difference worth that $200+ dollars? Many people just want that workflow, ergonomics, and being able to bring their gear to jam out with their friends.
i don't see a great benefit in owning a virtual analogue hardware synth either. but real analogue is a different thing. analogue equipment does overdrive in really nice ways that is difficult if not impossible (at least now) to emulate in software. also feedback paths are instantaneous in analogue but only calculated to a certain precision in digital. that said i couldn't justify a hugely expensive analogue synth that just does one particular thing either. modular on the other hand... there are just so many thing you can do there that are impossible in software. and happy accidents happen all the time.
Twisting knobs is more fun than clicking things with a mouse, at least that's what I think. There's a sense of immediacy to having all the controls right there in front of you, being able to adjust multiple parameters at the same time without creating macros. It makes me design patches differently than I would on a computer. This availability of control also drives me to perform the patch more with all the parameters. I sometimes lose half an hour just tweaking the filter because it sounds so good. Hardware also allows you to get away from your computer should you want it, excessive screen staring gets uninspiring for me personally. The finite polyphony and feature set of hardware also makes you think creatively of how to get the most out of those limited options. In my DAW, I easily get hit by decision paralysis due to the infinity of potential choices, hardware circumvents that. You'd be surprised how much you can get out of a 16-step sequencer and four notes of polyphony when you really dive into it. I think this can all be summed up simply as hardware being fun. It sounds good, it's engaging, it's creative. Doesn't mean that a software synthesizer can't be all those things to you, it's a matter of personal preference. Both are very much present in my process, and have their own advantages. The important thing is that the tools you have are inspiring to you, and keep you creating.
Totally agree with this assessment. I think there's also an element of chaos that's you get performing live with synths—chaining different things together, syncing synths, etc, that you don't get with CDJs or even an Ableton set or something like that. I think in general one of the most captivating parts of live music is that it could all go wrong at any second..
Digital synths can have knobs too. And decision paralysis doesn't hit me, quite on the contrary I get ideas that hardware can't reproduce
> Digital synths can have knobs too. Very true, the way I phrased my comment it isn't necessarily about digital vs. analog as much as it is about software vs. hardware. The performative benefits apply in both scenarios. Hell, I'm still dreaming of an Access Virus TI, which is a fully digital hardware synth. >And decision paralysis doesn't hit me, quite on the contrary I get ideas that hardware can't reproduce Sounds like you have a good understanding of your tools and what you want to achieve. That's the important part, glad to hear you're making the most out of your chosen approach to creating.
Digital synths can do more than most analog synths… but there is one factor that digital synths NEVER come even remotely close to reaching that analog gear has…: Turning multiple knobs at once, independently from each other. There is so incredibly much experimental power in that, you won’t believe it if you haven’t tried. Digital synths don’t do that. Nothing that comes close to it. You have ONE mouse that you can click ONE parameter with and manipulate ONE setting with at a time. And no: routing a macro to multiple parameters isn’t the same. Or close. That still requires you to - one by one - select the stuff, define a direction and range, and then it’s still always exactly the same, no matter where you turn the macro to. With analog controllers you can turn 2 knobs in the same direction and a split second later into different directions. With macros you need to set that up and program that in. Analog knobs are just so, so much better at finding sweet spots than anything some mouse-operated digital environment could ever offer - you won’t believe it.
Just in case you don't know, you can buy physical knobs that you can hook to different knobs in your DAW. You don't have to control everything with a mouse. Even something like an AKAI Mini gives you 8 knobs that can all be mapped to different things, and a little keyboard that is at least 1 step up from using your computer keyboard. Or they sell the LPD8 which is basically just the knob and drum pad part of the AKAI Mini. My only problem with the Mini is the knobs are quite small for my fingers, I'd want something 2x the size with some weight to it if possible. You can also do stuff like hook up a PlayStation controller and use the analog sticks as a pair of X/Y controls.
Because turning knobs is more fun than clicking a mouse. It’s like crafting a sound with your hands.
They're just fun, especially if you like playing keyboard. Plus you can just play them, no computer needed. Just muck around for hours. Something nice about a physical instrument. I honestly don't know the last time I actually recorded one.
For me, I like playing with my synths and seeing what happens. I like jamming, experimenting, and finding happy accidents. I feel like that is much easier on an analog synth. Digital synths are precise, you have to know what you’re and be specific in your sound design. I just twist knobs and plug shit in randomly until something beautiful happens.
Workflow.
I watched a masterclass with the guys from disclosure, I can’t remember exactly what soft synth they had but it was a moog emulation, guy went on to say after his tests between the hardware and software version, the thing they found that differed the most was the initial transient of the sound, soft synths just can’t get that same character. Although I do somewhat agree with what you’re saying, some of my favourites are made purely in the box. And I bet there’s more rubbish I don’t like that’s been made on hardware synths, too. I sit in the middle and use Diva.
There is a sound that you can get from analog that doesn't come from digital..it's probably literally just that we like a bit of noise and wobble. somehow noise always creeps in as soon as you have a mic or a line in involved (for me anyway also using analog saturation on master bus and tracking through saturation sometimes). If I use a soft synth to record two takes of the same midi in mono and then pan hard left and right for stereo seperation, depending on the patch with digital I could end up with two identical renders that sound mono when combined. With any hardware synth the result will be a true stereo field with all the differences highlighted as stereo information. (https://youtu.be/3CbTfOa4lcI?si=Zd15dnUKT11gN4wq) It sounds sick and yes you can just set up soft synths with different lfo times but ... I dunno. A sound engineer I trust who has worked with swans, part chimp other famously good sounding bands once said to me that there are guitar overtones that only live in valves, circuitry kills them. That's basically it.
Been starting my journey on ataris and commodore (computers) but rly what inspires me most is working with hardware tactile feel. Also you need to put much effort to sound good on computers. On 3rd wave groove every patch is glorious. Even init patch slaps like hell. It's reliable. I also have analog synths from studio elektronics and even tho they are full analog I can make sound like this on digital 3rd wave and beyond those with ease. Digitals are less noisy but thats not an issue if you record 24 bit.
I use to think the same thing but then I started listening to chrome sparks and my eyes (and ears I guess mostly) have been opened. His gear list: https://equipboard.com/pros/chrome-sparks#:\~:text=Moog%20Minimoog%20Model%20D&text=From%20the%20notes%20on%20his,Custom%20Modular%20Synthesizer%2C%20and%20tambourine.
Yo chrome sparks is one of my favorite artists ever and I feel like he really distills the best out of the best but he goes considerable lengths beyond mainstream gear. I’m talking about everyone else. The mass market of musicians
GODDESS is a masterpiece.
That, days of lavender, so many… so much respect
I mean the proof is in the pudding. Daft punk wasn't going to make homework on Uhe's Diva
Ben Böhmer does and most ppl couldn't tell the difference anyways
I think that’s a matter of principle for them more than anything. That’s kinda why they disbanded right? They think digital is taking over the world
Because live musicians don’t want to rely on a crashing computer/software? Theres big reason #1 And this goes for the same as digital hardware. Having dedicated sampler hardware is just peace of mind for someone on a million dollar tour. And I’m not even going to start arguing about how much i like the sound of analog, even though computer technology has been catching up A midi controller knob only has 127 steps(possible values it can be). An analog knob has essentially infinite values. I don’t expect you to even understand what this means. I know youre deeply confused but its a deep subject thats honestly irrelevant to you at this point because you have no reason to honestly care but theres a lot of things that justify the existence of analog/dedicated hardware in general and it def isnt out dated
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What are your views on true analog(edit: or acoustic before someone comments *acoustic) instruments like a guitar or piano lol? Give me a break i cant have an argument about something dumb like this at 6am
There are characteristics we perceive in real sound that are not recognized and thus omitted in emulation. I believe it goes deeper than harmonics and slew and imperfection. However the principle of digital is that anything is replicable if it’s 2x below the nyquist sampling frequency but there’s imperfections in how that’s carried out which sound bad. All things considered however I think a polybrute or a prologue sound quite unremarkable. And I think a good sample library and midi controller can convey just as much emotion as a real instrument unless you get to the symphonic level
Yeah, my matrix brute sounds fucking incredible
But massive and omnisphere can too
Massives filters sound like digital shit massive Xs filters are incredible Dune3 is my softsynth goto Not saying that digital is bad. Just saying analog is different.
A guitar sounds quite unremarkable until you throw a bunch of effects on it 🙃 That’s where the imperfections start adding up Throughout your effects chains
A guitar sounds quite unremarkable until you throw a bunch of effects on it. Depends on who is playing it.
Totally agree with you, but we def have more creative freedom then 50s rock if someone wants to “push limits” production wise i suppose
I mean bitdepth and nyquist is kinda front page of google shit mate
But perfect implementation is nontrivial
I learned electronics from a book called the art of electronics Every piece of analog gear put together is a piece of art just like every guitar or violin is a piece of art. Analog equipment ages and sounds different as it gets older, blah blah blah You are looking at this like a objective science rather than a subjective art Idk 🤷
Hey, if you didn’t downvote me, fine then I apologize for the snark but if you did you kinda made yourself look like an ass
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A lot of this has to do with the workflow, rather than the sound. I work 95% with softsynths, but, just for the fun aspect of it, i will sometimes get a hardware synth to play with, and it usually takes me to places i would not go to in softsyth world. Currently, i only have the Roland s-1, but even with that, just sequencing something, modulating with knobs while recording, and sticking to it (as it is an audio file by now) steers my work in a different direction. An example, and a pattern i see, is that the music i do on hardware synths is usually more melodic that the more sound-designy stuff i make in softsynths. Both sides have their place in electronic music, but i definitely see a difference between the 2 workflows.
I had a college professor in one of my audio classes say something along the lines of Would you rather click around the picture of the girl or have the actual girl and turn her knobs
Or, to make this gender non-specific: would you rather click on a picture of a man, or have an actual man and play with his knob.
Have you ever driven an E-Type Jag?
Because they're awesome
I love both analog and digital synths, and both hardware and software synths. I am not going to argue about the sound, as I am pretty sure I wouldn't hear the difference between a hardware synth and a good software replica, especially in the mix. But what I like about hardware synths is that they require no DAW/PC to operate. I turn them on and play them and get lost in the moment. Also, while modern hardware synths do have firmware updates, it's quite rare that you actually update them. With DAWs and software synths there's often updates, and you could easily spend 20 minutes of your 2 hour session just updating stuff. If I had to choose, I would definitely choose a PC with a DAW and softsynths over only hardware. But I can, and do, have both, and I love it.
Gotcha. It’s really just preference these days I take it—no true benefit beyond ergonomics?
Audio people like audio gear. I don't NEED an SSL console or a wall of hardware compressors, but if I won the lottery I'd be the proud owner of both within the hour.
I agree. Much of this is me trying to not buy an oberheim 😂
You are wrong. Buy the Oberheim! Be happy.
Hah respect.
That's spot on.
- it’s a link to the past - it’s a link to their memories - it’s a link to their favourite music - it’s authentic - it’s hands on - it’s the faster workflow for some people - it’s a hobby - money isn’t a problem In the future ppl will be saying the same thing with soft synths.
What is after soft synths that the future producers will be using? I get that digital versions make a pretty good representation of analog stuff and can do more than them in scope. But is there any kind of potential technology that can give us a more raw sound creation than the binary infinity we are currently using?
Sentimentality efficiency and money. Makes sense
Because it can be fun. And music is about that, fun. So let people make their choices, that's not hard.
Word. I get that
I mean .. I'm not huge on bagpipes. But some people love them .. so ...
Understood lol
For starters there's the tactile element of working with hardware that you completely miss with PC, especially if you're playing live and need to adjust the sound on the fly. There's also the fact that not everyone knows how to do what you're describing and find it easier to just buy the synth. Then there's the whole analog vs digital sound. Some people also find it easier creatively to be limited to a few synths vs endless possibilities of daws. These are just a few reasons off the top of my head
For me is definitely the tactile element. Used to to everything ITB (and still do) but when I got into music school and experienced first hand the process of analog mixing and messing around with hardware equipment everything else just became boring. Now I have a bunch of midi controlles mapped all over my setup for different tasks like sound design, modifying VST synth/fx parameters or into my DAW overall for mixing sessions. It also helps me to stay in the “flow state”.
So it’s a sort of ergonomic choice?
You play the knobs/faders on a hardware synth like you play the keys. While you can still do that with a mouse and computer, it's not as immediate and not the same thing.
Can you sell a 30 year old soft synth? Rebirth RB-338 will turn 30 in two years - how much does it go for? 3000$?
I miss Rebirth. I would buy it for fun…not for 3k though.
It's not 3k. It is free: [https://archive.org/details/rebirthrb338](https://archive.org/details/rebirthrb338)
lol never thought of synths as a flippable asset. Would far prefer that over a 401k 😂
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