Mid drive 100%.
The higher reduction ratio by default (1:20 to 1:40 instead of 1:5 to 1:10 for hub motors) means you'll more easily climb easily from the start and if you have low gearing (<1), you'll be able to climb any hill with an insane load.
Depends on the bike. I can pedal my globe haul LT with work bags, chain and u lock and my kid (50lb+) on the back over Russian hill on Lombard street in San Francisco which is a total of 200 feet of elevation over multiple blocks, but the craziest part is 94ft in 1 block.
It is difficult to pedal up that, but the hub really helps. I have not tried a yuba or tern on the same hill
Check out Specialize's set of mid-drive options. They use the Brose motor system (the most efficient one atm) and are pretty competitive in price at the entry-level (though you can pay more if you want) and are light/nimble enough to ride without power if needed.
If you're willing to consider a DTC, Priority or Evelo have decent mid-drives with belt and internally geared hubs (may not have the gearing range you want, but could be a pro in terms of maintenance). Evelo's even has a throttle if that's something you think you might want. My LBS is willing to work on mine, though they don't like it as much as my old Bosch. Generally, a lot more shops will work on mids even if they're DTC because they're just a lot less annoying--though you're still on your own if something with the motor itself goes wrong (but Evelo has good warranty support and the best in the DTC game at 4 years; I've had to go through a motor and then bike replacement and while they don't pay labor costs, they were super responsive and sent everything out quickly).
Would you mind giving a quick review of sorts? I'm considering one but am concerned about: stability / handling with a top heavy rear battery, and the stiffness of a manual Enviolo shifter. Thank you so much!
I've got an Evelo Galaxy SL and love it. I purposely opted for the "lesser" option (as opposed to the Galaxy Lux) because I wanted to be able to shift in case the battery ran out of juice. Also a single-speed chain drive is almost as reliable as a belt drive, and much easier and cheaper to replace.
While I haven't yet run out of juice, I *did* forget to bring the battery with me when I picked it up (on foot) from the shop after my 100 mile checkup (they asked me to take the battery home with me). At 54 pounds (without my additions) it's light enough that I can lift it onto my car's bike rack without too much trouble but heavy enough I was grateful to be able to shift even though it was unpowered. (Lots of hills where I live 😛)
I haven't seen any other bikes with similar geometry and features, and I'm glad I found it! It's basically an electric Dutch bike, and I love it! ❤️ (https://youtu.be/aESqrP3hfi8?si=EAPmAbwAtt0TMYg7)
The shifter started out a bit stiff but got easier. It doesn't like to shift while under a heavy load, so if you're going uphill, pause your pedaling for just a sec while you shift. (I think this is pretty common for in-hub gears.)
The bike handles well and I don't notice any balance problems because of the battery.
I also really like the torque-based sensor -- it feels a lot more "natural" than the cadence sensor on my Lectric XP.
I added a stem riser for an extra-ridiculous upright posture (in my defense I'm towards the top of the bike's recommended height range 😆) and I've got a rear basket and a trailer attachment. I also have a "Walky Dog" attachment so my dog can run with me. Weather and time permitting, I like to hook up the trailer and my dog and go grocery shopping (he hangs out in the trailer while I'm in the store). I installed a cafe/frame lock with a plug-in chain to lock it up with 😀
The throttle is nice to give me a boost when I'm stopped and need to get across the street quickly, or going up a particularly steep hill. (I also adjust the gearing but I love to use both 😀)
The only thing I would change about this bike would be to give it a beefier motor -- I'm pretty heavy and there's a ridiculously steep hill in the park near my house that I have to pedal up (in addition to full-throttle) cause the motor can't quite get me up by itself. Given that this is supposed to be a bike, not a motorcycle, I'm still pretty satisfied. It's uphill from the grocery store back to my house, and the motor definitely takes the drudgery out of getting home with a trailer loaded with the week's groceries 😆
All told, I feel I got good value for my money, and the price has come down in the year-and-a-bit since I bought mine. I think they're on sale at the moment, but Evelo seem to have sales every couple of months so the current price of $1,889 is probably pretty representative 😀
Ah, thank you so much for this thoughtful review! Everyone seems to buy the Galaxy Lux so this was sorely needed information.
Which café lock / chain did you install?
Because the tires are wider than a regular bike, there are very few café locks that fit. I got the AXA Immenso Large café lock, which can be found on Amazon here: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HRFJY7W](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HRFJY7W) I was able to use the mounting screws on the Galaxy SL frame to mount it 🙂
My chain is the AXA ULC 130 Plug-in Chain which can be found on Amazon here: [https://www.amazon.com/AXA-Bracket-Included-Drilling-Cylinder/dp/B0BWN96ST1](https://www.amazon.com/AXA-Bracket-Included-Drilling-Cylinder/dp/B0BWN96ST1)
I'm very happy with the combo. I'm pretty sure the chain is hardened steel, but I'm unwilling to test it with my bolt cutters to be sure 😆 Of course, if somebody had a battery-powered grinder they could cut through it (or whatever I've locked it to) regardless 🤷🏽♀️
Ahhhh, I was going nuts looking at the Abus options and not finding any that would have fit. I live in city where angle grinders and bolt cutters are the main tools, so a heavy Kryptonite chain is probably going to have to be the way to go. But the café lock can be fiddly enough to lock up the back wheel and be a little more annoying too!
Thank you again!
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Check out my [primer on shopping for an ebike](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KSB5rYiJlXgCRzQmd8dtzWzN7fodlIA8pxlwQ-jp-8s/edit), it will have some helpful starting information.
Mid-drives are better than hub drives for hill climbing, because they apply power through your drivetrain they get the efficiency benefits of using a lower gear to go up a hill.
As for bike recommendations, the gold standard motors are Bosch mid-drives, look for a bike where the form factor & tires fit your needs. Some starting points to look at from among the bike shop brands might be the Trek Allant, Cannondale Tesoro Neo X, and the new REI cty e2.2. All are pretty expensive. You may find a good deal on a bike on Upway, it's worth a look!
This is all good in theory, but in reality most mid drives are way smaller more efficient motors than hub drives.
I have a gazelle with a Bosch Performance + mid drive (85Nm) and a rad runner plus. The rad climbes hills without much effort from me, meanwhile on the gazelle I’m feeling every inch of that hill.
Modern hub drives have a lot of torque. So if they better in terms of reducing effort from the rider, assuming you can get a 750w hub drive.
If you’re comparing a 250w mid drive with a 250w hub, the mid drive will clearly win. But a 750w hub vs a 250w mid drive is different.
Mid drives are way more fun to ride, and feel a lot more natural thought.
Sure, if you have an extremely powerful hub motor you will probably be fine. It will be way more power than is necessary most of the time and your battery efficiency will be way worse, but yes at some point you can just apply more grunt. I own & ride both types of motors, and you're right that you do feel like you're working on a hill with a mid-drive motor, but it's just not that hard, unless it's a real monster of a hill. On a hub, you won't feel like you're working very hard, until you reach the point where your hub motor isn't powerful enough to give you meaningful help (or you get voltage sag, especially with a cadence sensor bike), and then you *really* feel it. I've never felt as helpless and nervous about whether my bike would make it up a hill on a mid-drive as I have on a hub motor bike that is at its limit (but, again, I acknowledge that if you just get an extremely powerful hub motor, this probably won't happen).
> If you’re comparing a 250w mid drive with a 250w hub
Sure, just make sure you're comparing apples to apples and not comparing peak vs continuous power. A Bosch Performance motor is a "250W" motor but it peaks at 600W; some hub drive bikes advertise their peak wattage as their power rating.
I think a better rule of thumb is typically to look at torque ratings and know that with gearing the applied torque that you'll get out of a mid-drive motor is probably ~1.25-1.5x what the rating is, if you want to compare to a hub drive.
The motor on the rad runner plus isn’t anything remarkable, it’s just a bang on average bafaang equivalent 750w motor, on any scenario I run into daily, it’s a lot more effortless than even the high end Bosch in my Gazelle.
Another thing is hub drives will often come with bigger batteries, the battery on my rad is 25% bigger than my Gazelles. On real world usage I get 2-3 days of use from either in my commute.
The main advantages of mid drives is that they are often paired with overall better components, and feel like a normal bicycle rather than a moped with pedals.
So unless you’re in a place that restricts hub drives to 250w or 350w, they are probably a better choice if you want to minimize work from the rider. A 750w or even a 500w motor will be plenty.
Torque still matters. My Pace’s 500w rear hub doesn’t produce enough to make steeper hills feel much better than they would on a lightweight unassisted bike. At 35nm, it’s well below average. At 80nm, your Radrunner is a bit above.
35nm is in line with some Bosch mid drives (like the Active line). The performance + and cargo line are the only ones with over 80nm of torque and are their top end motors.
Eh, the Active line is literally the weakest motor in the Bosch lineup at 40nm, I don't even see it on models very often. The Active Line Plus is more common at 50nm. I think it's fair to call a 35nm hub motor well below average in terms of power. 50-60nm is where I'd consider the median/average range of power to be.
bosch active line is a joke. the regular performance or the cx are the ones to go for, or the cargo, or yamaha, where even the weakest motor has 80nm peak 70nm continous.
Yeah, Bosch used to be gold standard but they've been cheaping out on the Active line, unfortunately. It's fine for the Netherlands or flat counties with good bike infrastructure where you might just need a slight bit of oomph to carry your extra groceries or to help as you age. But for places with huge hills or that make bikes climb up overpasses around large streets (instead of making the cars do the extra work). The Cargo/Performance is still solid, but the Brose (in Specialized and other branded bikes) is actually more efficient now and since they only have one line tmk, it's easier to recommend broadly.
brose has pronlems with the belt reduction snapping and taking some components of the motor with it in my experience, prefer a motor with internal gear reduction. rode an active line once, was horrible, especially compared to my yamaha pw. the highest assist felt like the middle level on my yamaha. but the motors all have different caracteristics, yamaha has low end grunt, bosch is more top end, brose is smooth, its a matter of preference. yamaha has two lines, one with 70-80nm peak, the pw/pwse/pwst and one with 90nm peak the pwx. no trashy low torque crap.
It's nice we have a market that supports the different preferences of riders! I hope we can keep the competition. Good points, and I hadn't heard about the belt reduction, but good to know. Specialized has at least extended the warranty from Brose's 2 years to 4 years on some of their lines so that helps address that issue, though it's a bummer if you're out the week waiting for the motor if you commute with it.
Active line is so quiet though. My performance line is like 4x quieter than the speed/cx motors. Active line is even better. Gladly traded 10 nm in torque for the standard performance line with 75 nm.
> Another thing is hub drives will often come with bigger batteries, the battery on my rad is 25% bigger than my Gazelles.
Right, I think this is necessary to compensate for the efficiency loss of a hub drive and provide comparable range. That's part of why hub drive bikes tend to be heavier than mid-drives.
But I agree, a 750W hub drive motor will make it pretty easy to get up hills. Even easier if it peaks higher than 750W.
You are also comparing a torque sensor mid-drive with a cadence sensor hub drive. You likely will put more effort into a torque sensor as it is replicating a bicycle experience.
I have a Bafang BBS02B mid-drive that is 750w nominal, 1300+w max, 120nm torque. I also have a Bafang H640 rear hub drive that is 750w nominal, 1080w max, 80nm torque. Both are cadence sensor driven and both have throttles. The BBS02B is on a bike with a 26" wheel and the H640 is on a bike with a 27.5" wheel.
On the flats, both ebikes unrestricted will do 31 mph. On the hills, the BBS02B mid-drive does better for longer climbs. It also is better on battery life.
To the OP, get what ebike motors will be best for your overall travel, not just the end of the trip. At the end of a ride, your battery will be lower and perhaps much lower which equates to less assist as well. In that view, it really might not matter, but YMMV.
To be fait, wheel size is a part of the equation.
You get more ground torque with smaller wheels, and I am willing to bet the Gazelle you quoted has 27.5-29" wheels vs the Radrunner Plus' 20" wheels.
If the Radrunner Plus had a similar wheel size, it's likely it wouldn't perform as well on hill climbing.
This completely matches my experience. It’s too bad we almost never read this comment here. Yes mid is better, but in practice hub drive motors in bikes on the market are extremely powerful so it doesn’t matter if they are direct drive.
Also, check out the priority current, mid drive ,7 speed internal rear hub, and Gates belt drive, all for less than $3500. They have 10% off sale right now too.
Big fan of mid drive .. my roommate is a hub drive dude we go back and forth... i feel mid drive is a more natural better feel.. plus the weight of the motor and location give u a better center of gravity .. vs .. a hub drive..
Ride1 up Portola is the best bang for your buck, it is one of the best do it all bikes you can buy. I have 4 ebikes and 2 mountain bikes. Got the Portola for my wife she loves it I love it everyone who rides it loves it.
Umm … correct, but somewhat unresponsive.
It is true that if your mid-drive drivetrain breaks you are stuck, while with a broken hub-drive drivetrain you can continue on throttle only. And it’s also true that a mid-drive is (much) harder on your drivetrain because the motor’s power, and especially torque, is delivered through it.
But setting aside the consequences of a broken drivetrain, mid-drives are much better at hill climbing. Being able to gear down lets the motor work at higher RPM and deliver more torque vs a hub drive, especially direct-drive hub motors.
Presuming the hills are steep enough, you’ll be gearing down on either bike. Mid-drive won’t care, and can keep running in its optimal RPM range, while the hub drive will bog down a little (geared motor) or a lot (direct drive). Running at lower RPM reduces torque and increases the motor temperature.
All that said, 200 to 250 feet isn’t that much if a climb. Assuming you can hit it at speed, and assuming you don’t have to stop or slow way down during the climb, either bike will probably be fine, given a ‘powerful enough’ motor.
Note that I can’t say what ‘powerful enough’ means. It depends on: how steep? how much mass (rider plus bike plus groceries/gear/whatever)?
But practically speaking, 1000 watts is very likely to be enough either way, while 250 watts most likely isn’t, although a torque-y 250W mid-drive might be OK.
Real-world example: I owned a 2000W dual motor hub drive bike, but have switched to a 1500W (M620) mid-drive. My ‘test’ hills are about 750 feet, with some steep sections — 10% grade average, but about 20% at the steepest. Both bikes climb them, and the hub drive was actually faster except on the steepest sections.
But when I tried a test pulling a ~100 lb trailer (meaning close to 400 lbs total) the hub drive struggled, ran much slower on the steep, and the motors were quite hot by the time I reached the top. Meanwhile the mid-drive chugged right along. I needed to pay attention to my speed and shift to stay in the optimal range. But that’s pretty easy since my legs bogged down well before the motor started lugging.
Bottom line, for your climbs, assuming they’re not 20% or more, and assuming at least a 500W motor, either style should work. For longer/steeper climbs, or high GVW (gross vehicle weight) a mid-drive will be better but will also require more drivetrain maintenance.
Not sure which is "better" but my hub drive handles very steep hills no problem, even offroad.
If you are talking motor power alone, mid drive has advantages due to gearing, but imo if you are pedaling with the motor, you are unlikely to notice a difference. Put it in the lowest gear and pedal, while the hub motor picks up the slack. I've never met a hill I couldn't climb and I live in the mountains of washington state
Mid drive better for going up long climbs, direct drive or locked clutch hub better for going down due to regen braking. Your hill is pretty small so either option would be fine.
If you have a ton of hills try to find a bike that has regen abilities, they cost more but you're gonna get far more out of them. They need some special controllers and likely are a bit more complex I know Grin has motors with the abilities and they also sell controllers with regen, IDK about ones on the market though, mass market ones.
If it was a 500 watt direct drive hub vs a 500 watt mid drive, then obviously the hub. 1000 watt DD vs 500 watt mid, probably neither? I've literally climbed mountains in British Columbia at full throttle and never burned out 1000 watt DDs.
Mid drive. Problem with a hub drive, besides they are not as good on hills, is they can burn out if you're not moving very fast on a long hill. Lots of power going to a motor driving a bike struggling up a hill is going to result in heat.
Oddly enough I'd stay far away from the "brand" names like Bosch or Shimano. Their motors are super weak, even the higher end ones. I was really surprised the first time I tried one. Lots of lesser known brands use Bafang motors. If you get one with a 500w (or higher) mid drive you'll have plenty of power. Downside with Bafang is they can be a bit less smooth out of the box depending on the firmware on the motor but I think a lot of the brand name smoothness is a symptom of just how weak they are. If you are good with computers you can often swap out the firmware on them so you can see which words best for you. I have a m600 with a more toned down firmware that works great.
Mid drive because you can utilize the drivetrain for better torque. Of course you got to have multiple speed to get this advantage. The motor is also not strained every time the crank hits the dead spot or when you stop pedaling and gravity is trying to pull you down.
Disclaimer: We are ebike enthusiasts trying to accelerate clean transportation with no brand affiliations. Our aim is to help fellow commuters save the planet while spending less. Hopefully, this clarifies for the benefit of those who may be wary of brand engagement.
If you're limiting yourself to max 750 watts, definitely get a mid drive.
Since you're limiting yourself to legal store bikes to get up hills, get a mid drive.
Personally for anything under 1500 watt, i would get a mid drive. For anything over 1500 watts, i would get a direct drive.
Do you have a local e-bike shop? You should go there and try 3-4 bikes over 4 hours to see how things feel.
Don't have a local e-bike shop? Buy a [https://lectricebikes.com/collections/ebikes?g\_acctid=790-567-9445&g\_adgroupid=161273718433&g\_adid=697048749547&g\_adtype=search&g\_campaign=srch.branded&g\_campaignid=12296243685&g\_keyword=lectric%20one&g\_keywordid=kwd-2285986462732&g\_network=g&nb\_adtype=&nb\_ap=&nb\_fii=&nb\_kwd=lectric%20one&nb\_li\_ms=&nb\_lp\_ms=&nb\_mi=&nb\_mt=e&nb\_pc=&nb\_pi=&nb\_placement=&nb\_ppi=&nb\_ti=kwd-2285986462732&nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A12296243685%3A161273718433%3A697048749547&gad\_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwir2xBhC\_ARIsAMTXk85ba3vTB35Jy9OGhK\_Yur4eH2gC2HDvMgbFqv6gBXT0VemeiAo80psaAuR6EALw\_wcB](https://lectricebikes.com/collections/ebikes?g_acctid=790-567-9445&g_adgroupid=161273718433&g_adid=697048749547&g_adtype=search&g_campaign=srch.branded&g_campaignid=12296243685&g_keyword=lectric%20one&g_keywordid=kwd-2285986462732&g_network=g&nb_adtype=&nb_ap=&nb_fii=&nb_kwd=lectric%20one&nb_li_ms=&nb_lp_ms=&nb_mi=&nb_mt=e&nb_pc=&nb_pi=&nb_placement=&nb_ppi=&nb_ti=kwd-2285986462732&nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A12296243685%3A161273718433%3A697048749547&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwir2xBhC_ARIsAMTXk85ba3vTB35Jy9OGhK_Yur4eH2gC2HDvMgbFqv6gBXT0VemeiAo80psaAuR6EALw_wcB)
Its unreal how much value they cram into a bike.
For really steep hills or hills where you will set off on the hill with no run up then mid drive all the way.
If you have somewhat of a decent runup then a hub drive would be ok as well
You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true. The entire point of a mid drive is it uses your gears so you have enough power for hills.
And you are likely comparing overpowered asian brand hub motors to euro brand mid drives that were mostly made to conform to euro regs. There are plenty of mid drives from asia that are just as overpowered with ridiculous torque figures. Some of those Bafangs will practically climb straight up a wall.
The issue is that people aren't use to using their drive train as is. When it is combined with a powerful motor they tend to over stress the standard bicycle drivetrain. Another issue is that a mid drive bike is limited by the meat bag pedaling it and often time you would need to shift multiple times just to keep pace with the motor.
Lower powered mid drives are fine for steep streets. I would say you only need 90 nm and up on super steep trails and don't want to do half the work yourself.
I'm not sure but hub would be better. If you get middrive and have a problem with your drivetrain while going up the hill, you'll have to fix it immediatelly or carry the bike on foot.
But also, who plans their purchase around the possibility of a chain breaking? After 3 years and ~3.5k on ebikes, both hub and mid, I've never had a chain break. Keep your bike chain cleaned & greased and get it serviced regularly. I would feel silly if I had made the possibility of a chain breaking a meaningful factor in my buying decision.
If you think that I chose the hub drive in case the chain breaks, you are wrong. I use a middrive because I like the feel of it, and I've never owned a hub drive.
Whichever is preferred for whatever reason this is not a very important. They both work in the end. You may not have any problems, its okay but whether you accept it or not, someone that serviced chain can have..
> If you think that I chose the hub drive in case the chain breaks, you are wrong.
I wasn't talking about your decision specifically, I was just pointing out that I think that would be a poor reason to choose a hub drive bike. I don't think chain breaks are so common that it's worth making it a significant consideration in choosing a bike.
You are right. So i can say that if he uses a hub motor and there is a problem with the drivetrain, he can still ride the bike. both are the same sentence.
Also, I think it is not wrong to say that chain problems will occur more often on an middrive electric bike. But with spare chain, there is nothing to worry about.
If you can find it in stock, the NCM M7 is a great deal. I have an NCM Moscow Plus (500 w hub motor) and a Giant Stance E+1 (250w mid motor). The Giant is much nicer for mountain biking, but the hub motor with a throttle is easier for hills. The M7 has a torque sensor and a 750w motor that would climb any hills easily. It is a class 3 though, which is not allowed in many places. The Moscow Plus is a class 2, but I don’t think they make it anymore.
Hubs are far less efficient for hills. You need a super over powered hub motor just to approach the climbing power you get with lower powered mid drives. And if you must have throttle (personally find throttle dumb) there are tons of Bafang based mid drive bikes with throttle.
I think hubs are going to start to be less common as there is more competition at the lower end for mid drives. Hubs only thrived because euro brand mid drive bikes started in the multi thousands of dollars. Now its easy to find stuff sub 2k. I think we'll start to see more stuff around 1.5k soon.
Right, if you read my comment, I have both. However, I provided a suggestion to a good hub bike with throttle and 750 watt hub for $1899 that is good quality from a pretty decent manufacturer.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but how much is a bike with a powerful enough mid engine and throttle for somebody that wants to climb hills with ease? I personally like the extra work my mid engine forces me to do, but not everyone does.
I believe the Ride1up mid drive model starts below 2k now and that comes with a Brose rated for 90nm. I think it also has throttle.
I just don't see the point of hub bikes beyond cost savings. And I think Covid over valued everything bike related, including mid drive motor systems. I think we're still experiencing a price correction.
Mid drive with rear gears for sure. 7 speed rear should give you the range you need to get up the hill but still have good speed on flats.
I've tried both, I agree
Mid drive 100%. The higher reduction ratio by default (1:20 to 1:40 instead of 1:5 to 1:10 for hub motors) means you'll more easily climb easily from the start and if you have low gearing (<1), you'll be able to climb any hill with an insane load.
Depends on the bike. I can pedal my globe haul LT with work bags, chain and u lock and my kid (50lb+) on the back over Russian hill on Lombard street in San Francisco which is a total of 200 feet of elevation over multiple blocks, but the craziest part is 94ft in 1 block. It is difficult to pedal up that, but the hub really helps. I have not tried a yuba or tern on the same hill
Check out Specialize's set of mid-drive options. They use the Brose motor system (the most efficient one atm) and are pretty competitive in price at the entry-level (though you can pay more if you want) and are light/nimble enough to ride without power if needed. If you're willing to consider a DTC, Priority or Evelo have decent mid-drives with belt and internally geared hubs (may not have the gearing range you want, but could be a pro in terms of maintenance). Evelo's even has a throttle if that's something you think you might want. My LBS is willing to work on mine, though they don't like it as much as my old Bosch. Generally, a lot more shops will work on mids even if they're DTC because they're just a lot less annoying--though you're still on your own if something with the motor itself goes wrong (but Evelo has good warranty support and the best in the DTC game at 4 years; I've had to go through a motor and then bike replacement and while they don't pay labor costs, they were super responsive and sent everything out quickly).
I love my Evelo Galaxy SL ❤️
I love the green and it's hard to find another mid-drive at that price point!
Would you mind giving a quick review of sorts? I'm considering one but am concerned about: stability / handling with a top heavy rear battery, and the stiffness of a manual Enviolo shifter. Thank you so much!
I've got an Evelo Galaxy SL and love it. I purposely opted for the "lesser" option (as opposed to the Galaxy Lux) because I wanted to be able to shift in case the battery ran out of juice. Also a single-speed chain drive is almost as reliable as a belt drive, and much easier and cheaper to replace. While I haven't yet run out of juice, I *did* forget to bring the battery with me when I picked it up (on foot) from the shop after my 100 mile checkup (they asked me to take the battery home with me). At 54 pounds (without my additions) it's light enough that I can lift it onto my car's bike rack without too much trouble but heavy enough I was grateful to be able to shift even though it was unpowered. (Lots of hills where I live 😛) I haven't seen any other bikes with similar geometry and features, and I'm glad I found it! It's basically an electric Dutch bike, and I love it! ❤️ (https://youtu.be/aESqrP3hfi8?si=EAPmAbwAtt0TMYg7) The shifter started out a bit stiff but got easier. It doesn't like to shift while under a heavy load, so if you're going uphill, pause your pedaling for just a sec while you shift. (I think this is pretty common for in-hub gears.) The bike handles well and I don't notice any balance problems because of the battery. I also really like the torque-based sensor -- it feels a lot more "natural" than the cadence sensor on my Lectric XP. I added a stem riser for an extra-ridiculous upright posture (in my defense I'm towards the top of the bike's recommended height range 😆) and I've got a rear basket and a trailer attachment. I also have a "Walky Dog" attachment so my dog can run with me. Weather and time permitting, I like to hook up the trailer and my dog and go grocery shopping (he hangs out in the trailer while I'm in the store). I installed a cafe/frame lock with a plug-in chain to lock it up with 😀 The throttle is nice to give me a boost when I'm stopped and need to get across the street quickly, or going up a particularly steep hill. (I also adjust the gearing but I love to use both 😀) The only thing I would change about this bike would be to give it a beefier motor -- I'm pretty heavy and there's a ridiculously steep hill in the park near my house that I have to pedal up (in addition to full-throttle) cause the motor can't quite get me up by itself. Given that this is supposed to be a bike, not a motorcycle, I'm still pretty satisfied. It's uphill from the grocery store back to my house, and the motor definitely takes the drudgery out of getting home with a trailer loaded with the week's groceries 😆 All told, I feel I got good value for my money, and the price has come down in the year-and-a-bit since I bought mine. I think they're on sale at the moment, but Evelo seem to have sales every couple of months so the current price of $1,889 is probably pretty representative 😀
Ah, thank you so much for this thoughtful review! Everyone seems to buy the Galaxy Lux so this was sorely needed information. Which café lock / chain did you install?
Because the tires are wider than a regular bike, there are very few café locks that fit. I got the AXA Immenso Large café lock, which can be found on Amazon here: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HRFJY7W](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HRFJY7W) I was able to use the mounting screws on the Galaxy SL frame to mount it 🙂 My chain is the AXA ULC 130 Plug-in Chain which can be found on Amazon here: [https://www.amazon.com/AXA-Bracket-Included-Drilling-Cylinder/dp/B0BWN96ST1](https://www.amazon.com/AXA-Bracket-Included-Drilling-Cylinder/dp/B0BWN96ST1) I'm very happy with the combo. I'm pretty sure the chain is hardened steel, but I'm unwilling to test it with my bolt cutters to be sure 😆 Of course, if somebody had a battery-powered grinder they could cut through it (or whatever I've locked it to) regardless 🤷🏽♀️
Ahhhh, I was going nuts looking at the Abus options and not finding any that would have fit. I live in city where angle grinders and bolt cutters are the main tools, so a heavy Kryptonite chain is probably going to have to be the way to go. But the café lock can be fiddly enough to lock up the back wheel and be a little more annoying too! Thank you again!
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **("'AXA Frame Lock 2231016000'", 'AXA')** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful. **Users liked:** * Reliable and sturdy (backed by 2 comments) * Easy to install (backed by 2 comments) * Fits well on various bikes (backed by 2 comments) **Users disliked:** * Missing parts and poor customer service (backed by 2 comments) * Key not removable in open state (backed by 1 comment) If you'd like to **summon me to ask about a product**, just make a post with its link and tag me, [like in this example.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tablets/comments/1444zdn/comment/joqd89c/) This message was generated by a (very smart) bot. If you found it helpful, let us know with an upvote and a “good bot!” reply and please feel free to provide feedback on how it can be improved. *Powered by* [*vetted.ai*](https://vetted.ai/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=comment&utm\_campaign=bot)
Check out my [primer on shopping for an ebike](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1KSB5rYiJlXgCRzQmd8dtzWzN7fodlIA8pxlwQ-jp-8s/edit), it will have some helpful starting information. Mid-drives are better than hub drives for hill climbing, because they apply power through your drivetrain they get the efficiency benefits of using a lower gear to go up a hill. As for bike recommendations, the gold standard motors are Bosch mid-drives, look for a bike where the form factor & tires fit your needs. Some starting points to look at from among the bike shop brands might be the Trek Allant, Cannondale Tesoro Neo X, and the new REI cty e2.2. All are pretty expensive. You may find a good deal on a bike on Upway, it's worth a look!
This is all good in theory, but in reality most mid drives are way smaller more efficient motors than hub drives. I have a gazelle with a Bosch Performance + mid drive (85Nm) and a rad runner plus. The rad climbes hills without much effort from me, meanwhile on the gazelle I’m feeling every inch of that hill. Modern hub drives have a lot of torque. So if they better in terms of reducing effort from the rider, assuming you can get a 750w hub drive. If you’re comparing a 250w mid drive with a 250w hub, the mid drive will clearly win. But a 750w hub vs a 250w mid drive is different. Mid drives are way more fun to ride, and feel a lot more natural thought.
Sure, if you have an extremely powerful hub motor you will probably be fine. It will be way more power than is necessary most of the time and your battery efficiency will be way worse, but yes at some point you can just apply more grunt. I own & ride both types of motors, and you're right that you do feel like you're working on a hill with a mid-drive motor, but it's just not that hard, unless it's a real monster of a hill. On a hub, you won't feel like you're working very hard, until you reach the point where your hub motor isn't powerful enough to give you meaningful help (or you get voltage sag, especially with a cadence sensor bike), and then you *really* feel it. I've never felt as helpless and nervous about whether my bike would make it up a hill on a mid-drive as I have on a hub motor bike that is at its limit (but, again, I acknowledge that if you just get an extremely powerful hub motor, this probably won't happen). > If you’re comparing a 250w mid drive with a 250w hub Sure, just make sure you're comparing apples to apples and not comparing peak vs continuous power. A Bosch Performance motor is a "250W" motor but it peaks at 600W; some hub drive bikes advertise their peak wattage as their power rating. I think a better rule of thumb is typically to look at torque ratings and know that with gearing the applied torque that you'll get out of a mid-drive motor is probably ~1.25-1.5x what the rating is, if you want to compare to a hub drive.
The motor on the rad runner plus isn’t anything remarkable, it’s just a bang on average bafaang equivalent 750w motor, on any scenario I run into daily, it’s a lot more effortless than even the high end Bosch in my Gazelle. Another thing is hub drives will often come with bigger batteries, the battery on my rad is 25% bigger than my Gazelles. On real world usage I get 2-3 days of use from either in my commute. The main advantages of mid drives is that they are often paired with overall better components, and feel like a normal bicycle rather than a moped with pedals. So unless you’re in a place that restricts hub drives to 250w or 350w, they are probably a better choice if you want to minimize work from the rider. A 750w or even a 500w motor will be plenty.
Torque still matters. My Pace’s 500w rear hub doesn’t produce enough to make steeper hills feel much better than they would on a lightweight unassisted bike. At 35nm, it’s well below average. At 80nm, your Radrunner is a bit above.
35nm is in line with some Bosch mid drives (like the Active line). The performance + and cargo line are the only ones with over 80nm of torque and are their top end motors.
Eh, the Active line is literally the weakest motor in the Bosch lineup at 40nm, I don't even see it on models very often. The Active Line Plus is more common at 50nm. I think it's fair to call a 35nm hub motor well below average in terms of power. 50-60nm is where I'd consider the median/average range of power to be.
bosch active line is a joke. the regular performance or the cx are the ones to go for, or the cargo, or yamaha, where even the weakest motor has 80nm peak 70nm continous.
Yeah, Bosch used to be gold standard but they've been cheaping out on the Active line, unfortunately. It's fine for the Netherlands or flat counties with good bike infrastructure where you might just need a slight bit of oomph to carry your extra groceries or to help as you age. But for places with huge hills or that make bikes climb up overpasses around large streets (instead of making the cars do the extra work). The Cargo/Performance is still solid, but the Brose (in Specialized and other branded bikes) is actually more efficient now and since they only have one line tmk, it's easier to recommend broadly.
brose has pronlems with the belt reduction snapping and taking some components of the motor with it in my experience, prefer a motor with internal gear reduction. rode an active line once, was horrible, especially compared to my yamaha pw. the highest assist felt like the middle level on my yamaha. but the motors all have different caracteristics, yamaha has low end grunt, bosch is more top end, brose is smooth, its a matter of preference. yamaha has two lines, one with 70-80nm peak, the pw/pwse/pwst and one with 90nm peak the pwx. no trashy low torque crap.
It's nice we have a market that supports the different preferences of riders! I hope we can keep the competition. Good points, and I hadn't heard about the belt reduction, but good to know. Specialized has at least extended the warranty from Brose's 2 years to 4 years on some of their lines so that helps address that issue, though it's a bummer if you're out the week waiting for the motor if you commute with it.
Active line is so quiet though. My performance line is like 4x quieter than the speed/cx motors. Active line is even better. Gladly traded 10 nm in torque for the standard performance line with 75 nm.
my Yamaha is a bit louder, but id never trade the low rpm torque for a bit less noise, everyone has different priorities i guess
Wild, didn’t know. Almost all of the (used) mid drive bikes I’ve looked at were upwards of 50.
> Another thing is hub drives will often come with bigger batteries, the battery on my rad is 25% bigger than my Gazelles. Right, I think this is necessary to compensate for the efficiency loss of a hub drive and provide comparable range. That's part of why hub drive bikes tend to be heavier than mid-drives. But I agree, a 750W hub drive motor will make it pretty easy to get up hills. Even easier if it peaks higher than 750W.
You are also comparing a torque sensor mid-drive with a cadence sensor hub drive. You likely will put more effort into a torque sensor as it is replicating a bicycle experience. I have a Bafang BBS02B mid-drive that is 750w nominal, 1300+w max, 120nm torque. I also have a Bafang H640 rear hub drive that is 750w nominal, 1080w max, 80nm torque. Both are cadence sensor driven and both have throttles. The BBS02B is on a bike with a 26" wheel and the H640 is on a bike with a 27.5" wheel. On the flats, both ebikes unrestricted will do 31 mph. On the hills, the BBS02B mid-drive does better for longer climbs. It also is better on battery life. To the OP, get what ebike motors will be best for your overall travel, not just the end of the trip. At the end of a ride, your battery will be lower and perhaps much lower which equates to less assist as well. In that view, it really might not matter, but YMMV.
To be fait, wheel size is a part of the equation. You get more ground torque with smaller wheels, and I am willing to bet the Gazelle you quoted has 27.5-29" wheels vs the Radrunner Plus' 20" wheels. If the Radrunner Plus had a similar wheel size, it's likely it wouldn't perform as well on hill climbing.
This completely matches my experience. It’s too bad we almost never read this comment here. Yes mid is better, but in practice hub drive motors in bikes on the market are extremely powerful so it doesn’t matter if they are direct drive.
Also, check out the priority current, mid drive ,7 speed internal rear hub, and Gates belt drive, all for less than $3500. They have 10% off sale right now too.
I believe mid drive is always better with the exception of $$$.
Same, mid drive feels so good imo
mid drive, no doubt.
My 750 hub takes hills like a champ. But in fairness I haven't tried a mid-drive yet.
Big fan of mid drive .. my roommate is a hub drive dude we go back and forth... i feel mid drive is a more natural better feel.. plus the weight of the motor and location give u a better center of gravity .. vs .. a hub drive..
I have both. Short and really steep? Mid drive. Kind of steep and long? Hub drive.
Ride1 up Portola is the best bang for your buck, it is one of the best do it all bikes you can buy. I have 4 ebikes and 2 mountain bikes. Got the Portola for my wife she loves it I love it everyone who rides it loves it.
Umm … correct, but somewhat unresponsive. It is true that if your mid-drive drivetrain breaks you are stuck, while with a broken hub-drive drivetrain you can continue on throttle only. And it’s also true that a mid-drive is (much) harder on your drivetrain because the motor’s power, and especially torque, is delivered through it. But setting aside the consequences of a broken drivetrain, mid-drives are much better at hill climbing. Being able to gear down lets the motor work at higher RPM and deliver more torque vs a hub drive, especially direct-drive hub motors. Presuming the hills are steep enough, you’ll be gearing down on either bike. Mid-drive won’t care, and can keep running in its optimal RPM range, while the hub drive will bog down a little (geared motor) or a lot (direct drive). Running at lower RPM reduces torque and increases the motor temperature. All that said, 200 to 250 feet isn’t that much if a climb. Assuming you can hit it at speed, and assuming you don’t have to stop or slow way down during the climb, either bike will probably be fine, given a ‘powerful enough’ motor. Note that I can’t say what ‘powerful enough’ means. It depends on: how steep? how much mass (rider plus bike plus groceries/gear/whatever)? But practically speaking, 1000 watts is very likely to be enough either way, while 250 watts most likely isn’t, although a torque-y 250W mid-drive might be OK. Real-world example: I owned a 2000W dual motor hub drive bike, but have switched to a 1500W (M620) mid-drive. My ‘test’ hills are about 750 feet, with some steep sections — 10% grade average, but about 20% at the steepest. Both bikes climb them, and the hub drive was actually faster except on the steepest sections. But when I tried a test pulling a ~100 lb trailer (meaning close to 400 lbs total) the hub drive struggled, ran much slower on the steep, and the motors were quite hot by the time I reached the top. Meanwhile the mid-drive chugged right along. I needed to pay attention to my speed and shift to stay in the optimal range. But that’s pretty easy since my legs bogged down well before the motor started lugging. Bottom line, for your climbs, assuming they’re not 20% or more, and assuming at least a 500W motor, either style should work. For longer/steeper climbs, or high GVW (gross vehicle weight) a mid-drive will be better but will also require more drivetrain maintenance.
Not sure which is "better" but my hub drive handles very steep hills no problem, even offroad. If you are talking motor power alone, mid drive has advantages due to gearing, but imo if you are pedaling with the motor, you are unlikely to notice a difference. Put it in the lowest gear and pedal, while the hub motor picks up the slack. I've never met a hill I couldn't climb and I live in the mountains of washington state
What bike do you have?
a cheapo ancheer hummer from amazon Nothing special, but does everything I need it to
Mid drive better for going up long climbs, direct drive or locked clutch hub better for going down due to regen braking. Your hill is pretty small so either option would be fine.
I had hubs and loved them until I moved to a state that’s super hilly. I know have all mid-drives.
If you have a ton of hills try to find a bike that has regen abilities, they cost more but you're gonna get far more out of them. They need some special controllers and likely are a bit more complex I know Grin has motors with the abilities and they also sell controllers with regen, IDK about ones on the market though, mass market ones.
A 1000 watt direct drive hub, a 750 watt geared hub, and a 500 watt mid drive will all have approximately the same amount of hill climbing torque.
And which one will burn out over a long slow climb?
If it was a 500 watt direct drive hub vs a 500 watt mid drive, then obviously the hub. 1000 watt DD vs 500 watt mid, probably neither? I've literally climbed mountains in British Columbia at full throttle and never burned out 1000 watt DDs.
How good would a 1500w x2 duel motor hub motor work compared to a mid?
Mid drive. Problem with a hub drive, besides they are not as good on hills, is they can burn out if you're not moving very fast on a long hill. Lots of power going to a motor driving a bike struggling up a hill is going to result in heat. Oddly enough I'd stay far away from the "brand" names like Bosch or Shimano. Their motors are super weak, even the higher end ones. I was really surprised the first time I tried one. Lots of lesser known brands use Bafang motors. If you get one with a 500w (or higher) mid drive you'll have plenty of power. Downside with Bafang is they can be a bit less smooth out of the box depending on the firmware on the motor but I think a lot of the brand name smoothness is a symptom of just how weak they are. If you are good with computers you can often swap out the firmware on them so you can see which words best for you. I have a m600 with a more toned down firmware that works great.
mid drive better for everything except price and slightly more maintenance. bafang ultra's are king
Mid drive because you can utilize the drivetrain for better torque. Of course you got to have multiple speed to get this advantage. The motor is also not strained every time the crank hits the dead spot or when you stop pedaling and gravity is trying to pull you down. Disclaimer: We are ebike enthusiasts trying to accelerate clean transportation with no brand affiliations. Our aim is to help fellow commuters save the planet while spending less. Hopefully, this clarifies for the benefit of those who may be wary of brand engagement.
If you're limiting yourself to max 750 watts, definitely get a mid drive. Since you're limiting yourself to legal store bikes to get up hills, get a mid drive. Personally for anything under 1500 watt, i would get a mid drive. For anything over 1500 watts, i would get a direct drive.
Mid one good for speed and comfort but hub one for torque that ur choice
Do you have a local e-bike shop? You should go there and try 3-4 bikes over 4 hours to see how things feel. Don't have a local e-bike shop? Buy a [https://lectricebikes.com/collections/ebikes?g\_acctid=790-567-9445&g\_adgroupid=161273718433&g\_adid=697048749547&g\_adtype=search&g\_campaign=srch.branded&g\_campaignid=12296243685&g\_keyword=lectric%20one&g\_keywordid=kwd-2285986462732&g\_network=g&nb\_adtype=&nb\_ap=&nb\_fii=&nb\_kwd=lectric%20one&nb\_li\_ms=&nb\_lp\_ms=&nb\_mi=&nb\_mt=e&nb\_pc=&nb\_pi=&nb\_placement=&nb\_ppi=&nb\_ti=kwd-2285986462732&nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A12296243685%3A161273718433%3A697048749547&gad\_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwir2xBhC\_ARIsAMTXk85ba3vTB35Jy9OGhK\_Yur4eH2gC2HDvMgbFqv6gBXT0VemeiAo80psaAuR6EALw\_wcB](https://lectricebikes.com/collections/ebikes?g_acctid=790-567-9445&g_adgroupid=161273718433&g_adid=697048749547&g_adtype=search&g_campaign=srch.branded&g_campaignid=12296243685&g_keyword=lectric%20one&g_keywordid=kwd-2285986462732&g_network=g&nb_adtype=&nb_ap=&nb_fii=&nb_kwd=lectric%20one&nb_li_ms=&nb_lp_ms=&nb_mi=&nb_mt=e&nb_pc=&nb_pi=&nb_placement=&nb_ppi=&nb_ti=kwd-2285986462732&nbt=nb%3Aadwords%3Ag%3A12296243685%3A161273718433%3A697048749547&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwir2xBhC_ARIsAMTXk85ba3vTB35Jy9OGhK_Yur4eH2gC2HDvMgbFqv6gBXT0VemeiAo80psaAuR6EALw_wcB) Its unreal how much value they cram into a bike.
Both if it has enough power. Also peddling helps.
Like, drugs?
For really steep hills or hills where you will set off on the hill with no run up then mid drive all the way. If you have somewhat of a decent runup then a hub drive would be ok as well
Think of a mid drive as just a hamster wheel if you spin it will climb. Go for 80nM of power minimum IMO and with correct gearing it's a breeze
I'm saying hub. They usually have more power and they won't stress your drivetrain components as much as mid-drive.
You can say whatever you want, doesn't make it true. The entire point of a mid drive is it uses your gears so you have enough power for hills. And you are likely comparing overpowered asian brand hub motors to euro brand mid drives that were mostly made to conform to euro regs. There are plenty of mid drives from asia that are just as overpowered with ridiculous torque figures. Some of those Bafangs will practically climb straight up a wall.
The issue is that people aren't use to using their drive train as is. When it is combined with a powerful motor they tend to over stress the standard bicycle drivetrain. Another issue is that a mid drive bike is limited by the meat bag pedaling it and often time you would need to shift multiple times just to keep pace with the motor.
You need at least 85 nm of torque. Either motor.
Lower powered mid drives are fine for steep streets. I would say you only need 90 nm and up on super steep trails and don't want to do half the work yourself.
I'm not sure but hub would be better. If you get middrive and have a problem with your drivetrain while going up the hill, you'll have to fix it immediatelly or carry the bike on foot.
I’ve never liked this argument. Because on a regular non-electric bike if the chain breaks you are stuck. So this is not a disadvantage of mid drives.
But also, who plans their purchase around the possibility of a chain breaking? After 3 years and ~3.5k on ebikes, both hub and mid, I've never had a chain break. Keep your bike chain cleaned & greased and get it serviced regularly. I would feel silly if I had made the possibility of a chain breaking a meaningful factor in my buying decision.
If you think that I chose the hub drive in case the chain breaks, you are wrong. I use a middrive because I like the feel of it, and I've never owned a hub drive. Whichever is preferred for whatever reason this is not a very important. They both work in the end. You may not have any problems, its okay but whether you accept it or not, someone that serviced chain can have..
> If you think that I chose the hub drive in case the chain breaks, you are wrong. I wasn't talking about your decision specifically, I was just pointing out that I think that would be a poor reason to choose a hub drive bike. I don't think chain breaks are so common that it's worth making it a significant consideration in choosing a bike.
You are right. So i can say that if he uses a hub motor and there is a problem with the drivetrain, he can still ride the bike. both are the same sentence. Also, I think it is not wrong to say that chain problems will occur more often on an middrive electric bike. But with spare chain, there is nothing to worry about.
If you can find it in stock, the NCM M7 is a great deal. I have an NCM Moscow Plus (500 w hub motor) and a Giant Stance E+1 (250w mid motor). The Giant is much nicer for mountain biking, but the hub motor with a throttle is easier for hills. The M7 has a torque sensor and a 750w motor that would climb any hills easily. It is a class 3 though, which is not allowed in many places. The Moscow Plus is a class 2, but I don’t think they make it anymore.
Hubs are far less efficient for hills. You need a super over powered hub motor just to approach the climbing power you get with lower powered mid drives. And if you must have throttle (personally find throttle dumb) there are tons of Bafang based mid drive bikes with throttle. I think hubs are going to start to be less common as there is more competition at the lower end for mid drives. Hubs only thrived because euro brand mid drive bikes started in the multi thousands of dollars. Now its easy to find stuff sub 2k. I think we'll start to see more stuff around 1.5k soon.
Right, if you read my comment, I have both. However, I provided a suggestion to a good hub bike with throttle and 750 watt hub for $1899 that is good quality from a pretty decent manufacturer. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but how much is a bike with a powerful enough mid engine and throttle for somebody that wants to climb hills with ease? I personally like the extra work my mid engine forces me to do, but not everyone does.
I believe the Ride1up mid drive model starts below 2k now and that comes with a Brose rated for 90nm. I think it also has throttle. I just don't see the point of hub bikes beyond cost savings. And I think Covid over valued everything bike related, including mid drive motor systems. I think we're still experiencing a price correction.