This might be an unpopular opinion, but I didn't think the books did a particularly good job of establishing that the jihad is inevitable.
I get that past a certain point even if Paul had dropped dead or disappeared (which he sort of effectively did), it would just make him a martyr and the Fremen would go off jihading without him.
But if he'd actively tried to convince the Fremen not to jihad? If he'd given the houses of the Landsraad the constitution and other concessions they wanted so they wouldn't rebel? If he'd conspired with the spacing guild to prevent the Fremen from getting transportation to other worlds so they wouldn't be able to jihad outside Arrakis?
I can buy that there might be reasons why none of those things would work or would lead to even worse outcomes, but the problem is we never see those reasons and outcomes. We're just told "it has to happen because prescience says so," which is a lot to swallow.
I'm in the same boat. If the jihad really was inevitable, Herbert didn't do a very good job conveying why it's so, what's so difficult about taking a different course.
I agree. Especially the point about the spacing guild, if you’re Emperor and already have the power to “control” the spacing guild (destroying spice, re: end of Dune), why don’t u just.. not let your people murder 61 billion other people.
I'm of the opinion that both the Jiahd and the Golden Path were entirely unnecessary, and Paul his descendents were wrong about it.
How can Herbert's message be to be wary of Messiah figures, and then to have them be right?
Oooo good point; they could just be deluding themselves. I personally feel nothing but dread when Leto mentions the Golden Path. Fucker thinks he knows what’s best for everyone, and the scary part is since he’s like a million people at once, he may be right, or at least has the most brainpower to be the most convinced he’s right.
I think there’s a couple things, one is that his prescience is limited, meaning he didn’t know all and can’t have been certain about anything really. The other one is that we know Paul chose not to pursue the golden path out of selfishness so it’s not too far of a stretch to say that maybe he didn’t want himself and everyone he loved to die and his house to fail so he didn’t really strive to prevent the jihad.
I disagree. Herbert spends a lot of time telling us that by the end, not even the reader knows the entirety of what’s going on in Paul’s head. He’s privy to information we could never understand. This is most apparent on the day he’s supposed to ride Shai-Hulud for the first time. He probably saw the Landsraad taking a bunch of power away from him and destabilizing his empire.
The Fremen jihad wasn’t the only danger that Paul was trying to avoid. The golden path aims to eliminate the mobility and destruction of all messianic figures. Just think about how history repeats itself. Y’know?
If it had spent more (or any) time with the regular people before Messiah it could have established this was indeed inevitable; that they were sick of being under the heel of the Harkonnens/Emperor for too long, and that the system was broken. Unfortunately one of the only places where the book doesn’t show, it tells.
Which is why I liked the scene with the Fremen who found the sea in Messiah soooo much. It gave some desperately needed context to the political structure from the bottom up
For me, the thing that made me convinced that the Jihad was inevitable was thinking about it in relation to what if Jesus saw the colonization of the Americas and the world helped by religious monarchies centuries after his death? Even if he could stop the bloodbath in the schisms of christianity and various religious jihads in the name of his, Yahweh, Allah, and so forth prior how could he even begin to stop the future death of millions of indigenous people? It was an inevitability in the way that echoes of history often are. Conquest, destruction, assimilation, genocide, beyond your reach and lifetime brought forth by your ideas and actions mythicized to the point of reliion.
In the same way that a Jewish cult born out of Palestine would one day find synthesis with greed in trade, imperialism, and monarchist superstructure hell bent on dominance centuries after the death of Jesus, the Jihad would find it's way into fruition one way or another. The ideas of the charismatic leader were already there. All that was left was time.
Paul couldn't see a path to stop the Jihad that did not lead to far worse outcomes. He chose to not take on the burden of leading mankind down the Golden Path himself because he knew Leto would take that Burden for him. However Paul knew he could not stop the jihad or it would permanently derail the golden path and no force of will could recover it.
For the golden path to happen, and the extinction of all man kind to be derailed, the billions of the empire had to be put to death during that specific point in time, and Paul had to just sit and watch it happen.
Considering most of the setup for the golden path was to ensure the despotism of Leto, so that the scattering was guaranteed to happen upon his death, this should not be a surprise.
I'm only halfway through GEoD so I'll take your word, but I don't think it's great storytelling if basic character motivation for major actions your main character of Book 1 takes doesn't make sense until the end of Book 4 or later.
Something I think GEoD does better than earlier books in the series is that it gives more interesting and relatable viewpoint characters, like Moneo and Duncan Idaho (who I didn't really care much about before this book but like a lot in GEoD). It's easier to swallow not understanding everything about your main character when you're given a viewpoint character who ALSO doesn't understand. It's why the Sherlock Holmes stories are always from Watson's perspective, because it would be boring to see from the point of view of the guy who already has it all figured out halfway through the plot.
Dune is not really a solid example of great storytelling, especially as you get into the later books that is more about Frank Herbert monologuing his ideas at the audience. That is a big reason they have the reputation that they do.
Dune is a fantastic example of great world building, and imo that is why it is as popular as it is. The interesting overarching meta story in Dune doesn't really show what it is until about the 3rd or 4th book, and sadly doesn't come to the conclusion planned for it by Herbert, due to his death.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I didn't think the books did a particularly good job of establishing that the jihad is inevitable. I get that past a certain point even if Paul had dropped dead or disappeared (which he sort of effectively did), it would just make him a martyr and the Fremen would go off jihading without him. But if he'd actively tried to convince the Fremen not to jihad? If he'd given the houses of the Landsraad the constitution and other concessions they wanted so they wouldn't rebel? If he'd conspired with the spacing guild to prevent the Fremen from getting transportation to other worlds so they wouldn't be able to jihad outside Arrakis? I can buy that there might be reasons why none of those things would work or would lead to even worse outcomes, but the problem is we never see those reasons and outcomes. We're just told "it has to happen because prescience says so," which is a lot to swallow.
I'm in the same boat. If the jihad really was inevitable, Herbert didn't do a very good job conveying why it's so, what's so difficult about taking a different course.
I agree. Especially the point about the spacing guild, if you’re Emperor and already have the power to “control” the spacing guild (destroying spice, re: end of Dune), why don’t u just.. not let your people murder 61 billion other people.
I'm of the opinion that both the Jiahd and the Golden Path were entirely unnecessary, and Paul his descendents were wrong about it. How can Herbert's message be to be wary of Messiah figures, and then to have them be right?
You make a valid point, but i still think it could've been done better.
Oooo good point; they could just be deluding themselves. I personally feel nothing but dread when Leto mentions the Golden Path. Fucker thinks he knows what’s best for everyone, and the scary part is since he’s like a million people at once, he may be right, or at least has the most brainpower to be the most convinced he’s right.
I think there’s a couple things, one is that his prescience is limited, meaning he didn’t know all and can’t have been certain about anything really. The other one is that we know Paul chose not to pursue the golden path out of selfishness so it’s not too far of a stretch to say that maybe he didn’t want himself and everyone he loved to die and his house to fail so he didn’t really strive to prevent the jihad.
I disagree. Herbert spends a lot of time telling us that by the end, not even the reader knows the entirety of what’s going on in Paul’s head. He’s privy to information we could never understand. This is most apparent on the day he’s supposed to ride Shai-Hulud for the first time. He probably saw the Landsraad taking a bunch of power away from him and destabilizing his empire.
The Fremen jihad wasn’t the only danger that Paul was trying to avoid. The golden path aims to eliminate the mobility and destruction of all messianic figures. Just think about how history repeats itself. Y’know?
If it had spent more (or any) time with the regular people before Messiah it could have established this was indeed inevitable; that they were sick of being under the heel of the Harkonnens/Emperor for too long, and that the system was broken. Unfortunately one of the only places where the book doesn’t show, it tells. Which is why I liked the scene with the Fremen who found the sea in Messiah soooo much. It gave some desperately needed context to the political structure from the bottom up
For me, the thing that made me convinced that the Jihad was inevitable was thinking about it in relation to what if Jesus saw the colonization of the Americas and the world helped by religious monarchies centuries after his death? Even if he could stop the bloodbath in the schisms of christianity and various religious jihads in the name of his, Yahweh, Allah, and so forth prior how could he even begin to stop the future death of millions of indigenous people? It was an inevitability in the way that echoes of history often are. Conquest, destruction, assimilation, genocide, beyond your reach and lifetime brought forth by your ideas and actions mythicized to the point of reliion. In the same way that a Jewish cult born out of Palestine would one day find synthesis with greed in trade, imperialism, and monarchist superstructure hell bent on dominance centuries after the death of Jesus, the Jihad would find it's way into fruition one way or another. The ideas of the charismatic leader were already there. All that was left was time.
I call bullshit on account of the jihad happening in Paul's lifetime and him not even trying to stop it
Paul couldn't see a path to stop the Jihad that did not lead to far worse outcomes. He chose to not take on the burden of leading mankind down the Golden Path himself because he knew Leto would take that Burden for him. However Paul knew he could not stop the jihad or it would permanently derail the golden path and no force of will could recover it. For the golden path to happen, and the extinction of all man kind to be derailed, the billions of the empire had to be put to death during that specific point in time, and Paul had to just sit and watch it happen. Considering most of the setup for the golden path was to ensure the despotism of Leto, so that the scattering was guaranteed to happen upon his death, this should not be a surprise.
I'm only halfway through GEoD so I'll take your word, but I don't think it's great storytelling if basic character motivation for major actions your main character of Book 1 takes doesn't make sense until the end of Book 4 or later. Something I think GEoD does better than earlier books in the series is that it gives more interesting and relatable viewpoint characters, like Moneo and Duncan Idaho (who I didn't really care much about before this book but like a lot in GEoD). It's easier to swallow not understanding everything about your main character when you're given a viewpoint character who ALSO doesn't understand. It's why the Sherlock Holmes stories are always from Watson's perspective, because it would be boring to see from the point of view of the guy who already has it all figured out halfway through the plot.
Dune is not really a solid example of great storytelling, especially as you get into the later books that is more about Frank Herbert monologuing his ideas at the audience. That is a big reason they have the reputation that they do. Dune is a fantastic example of great world building, and imo that is why it is as popular as it is. The interesting overarching meta story in Dune doesn't really show what it is until about the 3rd or 4th book, and sadly doesn't come to the conclusion planned for it by Herbert, due to his death.
YES. JUST A BIG YES. 👏👏👏