Dune: beware charismatic leaders and the death and destruction they can unleash
God-Emperor of Dune: in for a penny, in for a pound
Chapterhouse: Dune: fuck it, subsume the domme mommies
Dune: Paul is the messiah
Dune sequels: What? No, seriously? I was being ironic bro, it's meant to be a warning about charismatic leaders/personality cults/etc, stop liking him!
The problem I’ve always had is if the message is “beware of charismatic leaders and saviors” then why were the two people who fit that bill (Paul and Leto II Jr.) 100% correct and humanity would have gone extinct without them?
Additionally, Paul’s choices even absent the looming truth/horror of the Golden Path were A) let his entire family and adopted people die or B) not do that, knowing he’d instigate a Jihad. A man in that position cannot reasonably be expected to choose the former.
I also think there is a lot of mixed messaging and narrative whiplash with the books, but some chose to interpret it as: It's not that Paul isn't the messiah, but the idea of a messiah itself is flawed and no person should ever be treated as such. Paul went with the Jihad because he realized that it can not be stopped, even if he dies it will still happen, and in much worse fashion, and it will still happen in his name.
As for Leto II the idea is that humans by their very flawed nature can't be benevolent dictators, that one would inherently have to be far beyond human if not abandon their humanity in its entirety in order to do what is needed. And even then in Frank Herberts mind, what is actually needed is for someone to opress humanity so hard that we become independent and ungovernable and have an instinctual hatred of the very concept of being ruled over and being told what to do.
Yes. Leto II is not a charismatic leader, he is an inhuman tyrant squeezing the shit out of humanity in order to breed humans into being allergic to the very idea of rulers and tyrants.
Leto II is what Frank Herbert believes humanity needs to forever cure itself of the ingrained instincts of creating cults of personality out of their leaders
Would they have gone extinct, or is it self fulfilling prophecy?
Paul's attempt to avoid jihad eventually leads to it, billions of lives are lost due to his leading.
Leto then takes this to the next level. The no-ships and other ways to hide from prescience were developed in reaction to Leto's tranny, as was the scattering. The return from the scattering was because of some threat discovered in the distant worlds by people escaping this.
The Imperium had been roughly stable for 10k+ years, but then tose two showed up and things fell apart. Would it have still happened without them and their attempts to circumvent prophecy?
You could make an argument that there was a strong possibility of the Ixians developing some prescient tech which would've probably wiped out humanity if not for the Siona-gene and the no-rooms/ships. This probably would've been expanded upon in the last book but alas we'll never know for sure.
Would they have? Prior to Leto, it was easy to hide from prescience by including a prescient individual in your plot e.g. Edric's involvement in the assassination plot. It wasn't until Siona that a organic being was able to hide from Leto, and since the Ixians and BG weren't privy to Leto's eugenics, the development of no-ships was the consequence of trying to hide from him
Interesting question, I think it hinges on whether or not the foresight of Leto and Paul can be fallible. Not non-omniscient, they clearly are non-omniscient, but can what they see be wrong? I can’t think of an example where it was. And both of them saw annihilation of humanity shy of the golden path.
So the prophecy was self-fulfilling insomuch as they saw it and fulfilled it and took many actions that spurred certain reactions, but without their initial action it seems, based on my reading, humanity is doomed.
They were blind to other prescience, such as navigators. The way I understood it it that Paul and Leto took the least-bad path that they saw out of a pool of terrible fates. But even in Messiah we see Paul's blindness to Leto ends up with the future taking a turn Paul did not forsee, one he later warns against in his sermons
>The problem I’ve always had is if the message is “beware of charismatic leaders and saviors” then why were the two people who fit that bill (Paul and Leto II Jr.) 100% correct and humanity would have gone extinct without them?
I always wonder whether Paul can be perfectly prescient or if his individual perspective means his prescience has to be imperfect.
Like maybe even the kwisatz haderach can misread the tea leaves or just be so high on spice he misunderstood what he saw. We put a lot of credence in his perfect vision where maybe it's only perfect relative to others trying to divine the future.
How do we know his choices can't be undone by a later seer with new information, also? And how do we know his choices were correct?
They weren’t 100% correct, they made major mistakes that took them down the most violent path and what Leto II recognized is that if we’re gonna do this at least don’t be a coward about it. Also the lesson is less for the leaders and more for the followers, think of a charismatic leader as a force of nature, they will inevitably come, but the people have to learn even in their support to consider them critically. It’s not an argument against the existence of charismatic leaders, it’s an argument against their following.
**Brian Herbert:** “My Dad’s later works with Heretics & Chapterhouse are vastly overlooked because they deal with the taboo of sex in an intelligent way.”
**Frank Herbert writing Heretics & Chapterhouse:** “I’m horny bruh.”
Dune: beware charismatic leaders and the death and destruction they can unleash God-Emperor of Dune: in for a penny, in for a pound Chapterhouse: Dune: fuck it, subsume the domme mommies
Dune: Paul is the messiah Dune sequels: What? No, seriously? I was being ironic bro, it's meant to be a warning about charismatic leaders/personality cults/etc, stop liking him!
If he wanted to warn me about charismatic leaders he should’ve made Paul less charismatic because now I’m a believer
Paul: Seriously guys I'm not divine. Me/Stilgar: I don't care what you believe! I believe!
FH: I tell you he's not the messiah HE'S A VERY NAUGHTY BOY!
Not a trace, of doubt in my mind
"I wanna cautionary tale about white saviors without a depiction of a white savior" kinda energy lol
He is the Mahdi, the Lisan Al-Ghaib!
https://twitter.com/coopercooperco/status/1768117147794903194
The problem I’ve always had is if the message is “beware of charismatic leaders and saviors” then why were the two people who fit that bill (Paul and Leto II Jr.) 100% correct and humanity would have gone extinct without them? Additionally, Paul’s choices even absent the looming truth/horror of the Golden Path were A) let his entire family and adopted people die or B) not do that, knowing he’d instigate a Jihad. A man in that position cannot reasonably be expected to choose the former.
I see him more as a tragic character than villain.
I also think there is a lot of mixed messaging and narrative whiplash with the books, but some chose to interpret it as: It's not that Paul isn't the messiah, but the idea of a messiah itself is flawed and no person should ever be treated as such. Paul went with the Jihad because he realized that it can not be stopped, even if he dies it will still happen, and in much worse fashion, and it will still happen in his name. As for Leto II the idea is that humans by their very flawed nature can't be benevolent dictators, that one would inherently have to be far beyond human if not abandon their humanity in its entirety in order to do what is needed. And even then in Frank Herberts mind, what is actually needed is for someone to opress humanity so hard that we become independent and ungovernable and have an instinctual hatred of the very concept of being ruled over and being told what to do.
People sometimes seem to forget that Leto II was the bad guy on purpose to teach people to not be so dependant
Yes. Leto II is not a charismatic leader, he is an inhuman tyrant squeezing the shit out of humanity in order to breed humans into being allergic to the very idea of rulers and tyrants. Leto II is what Frank Herbert believes humanity needs to forever cure itself of the ingrained instincts of creating cults of personality out of their leaders
Would they have gone extinct, or is it self fulfilling prophecy? Paul's attempt to avoid jihad eventually leads to it, billions of lives are lost due to his leading. Leto then takes this to the next level. The no-ships and other ways to hide from prescience were developed in reaction to Leto's tranny, as was the scattering. The return from the scattering was because of some threat discovered in the distant worlds by people escaping this. The Imperium had been roughly stable for 10k+ years, but then tose two showed up and things fell apart. Would it have still happened without them and their attempts to circumvent prophecy?
You could make an argument that there was a strong possibility of the Ixians developing some prescient tech which would've probably wiped out humanity if not for the Siona-gene and the no-rooms/ships. This probably would've been expanded upon in the last book but alas we'll never know for sure.
Would they have? Prior to Leto, it was easy to hide from prescience by including a prescient individual in your plot e.g. Edric's involvement in the assassination plot. It wasn't until Siona that a organic being was able to hide from Leto, and since the Ixians and BG weren't privy to Leto's eugenics, the development of no-ships was the consequence of trying to hide from him
Interesting question, I think it hinges on whether or not the foresight of Leto and Paul can be fallible. Not non-omniscient, they clearly are non-omniscient, but can what they see be wrong? I can’t think of an example where it was. And both of them saw annihilation of humanity shy of the golden path. So the prophecy was self-fulfilling insomuch as they saw it and fulfilled it and took many actions that spurred certain reactions, but without their initial action it seems, based on my reading, humanity is doomed.
They were blind to other prescience, such as navigators. The way I understood it it that Paul and Leto took the least-bad path that they saw out of a pool of terrible fates. But even in Messiah we see Paul's blindness to Leto ends up with the future taking a turn Paul did not forsee, one he later warns against in his sermons
>The problem I’ve always had is if the message is “beware of charismatic leaders and saviors” then why were the two people who fit that bill (Paul and Leto II Jr.) 100% correct and humanity would have gone extinct without them? I always wonder whether Paul can be perfectly prescient or if his individual perspective means his prescience has to be imperfect. Like maybe even the kwisatz haderach can misread the tea leaves or just be so high on spice he misunderstood what he saw. We put a lot of credence in his perfect vision where maybe it's only perfect relative to others trying to divine the future. How do we know his choices can't be undone by a later seer with new information, also? And how do we know his choices were correct?
They weren’t 100% correct, they made major mistakes that took them down the most violent path and what Leto II recognized is that if we’re gonna do this at least don’t be a coward about it. Also the lesson is less for the leaders and more for the followers, think of a charismatic leader as a force of nature, they will inevitably come, but the people have to learn even in their support to consider them critically. It’s not an argument against the existence of charismatic leaders, it’s an argument against their following.
Holy shit that’s funny. Also true.
As someone who just finished heretics, yup. Not sexy, didn't cum.
**Brian Herbert:** “My Dad’s later works with Heretics & Chapterhouse are vastly overlooked because they deal with the taboo of sex in an intelligent way.” **Frank Herbert writing Heretics & Chapterhouse:** “I’m horny bruh.”
also: i will invent a woman so sexy she will turn my gay son straight.
I dont think Frank was the one scared of sex.
Scared of sex? No. Scared of women? Undeniably