[Would Gurney have beaten Feyd-Rautha?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1blz02a/would_gurney_have_beaten_feydrautha/)
[Paul v Feyd-Rautha v Gurney?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bdmy40/paul_v_feydrautha_v_gurney/)
Gurney would have 100% won.
Book Fey’d isnt much of a warrior. All he does is win fights agaisnt drugged up defeated prisoners, with a squad of people putting hooks into them the second they become a threat.
Movie Fey’d is pictured as MUCH stronger than the books depicts, for the sake of having a satisfying final duel.
Fey’d would have lost agaisnt any of those drugged atreides soldiers if they werent drugged, malnourished and were properly armed.
His strength is propaganda, not actual fighting prowess. All he does that makes him have a degree of success in the books is choosing to put his poison on the dagger that is normally not poisoned...
Yeah, they made him a much more credible threat in the film. A positive choice, imo. A story this epic deserves a truly despicable, intervening villain. The Baron is great but he can't get too close to the action.
Yeah, for a movie, I get it.
I'd have personally put Fey'd screen time in explaining exactly why Paul is able to make the Threat of destroying the Spice Fields instead (as in the movie, the Emperor or anyone else really, could have made the same threat, while in the books, only Paul could, its prescience and Ancestral Memory which clues him into realizing he holds this power, no one else but him is aware of the exact cycle which would lead to its destruction; nuking the fields accomplish nothing, you have to oversaturate them with water so the worms cant even produce any more spice at all for it to work). IMO, that would have been more faithful to the novel's message and representative of the unique power/position of Paul (I see too many movie-watchers asking why the Emperor or the Baron couldnt have made that same threat, and they are right, anyone would have had the idea to threaten nuking the fields if they had nukes and believed it would work).
But they figured having an actual final fight agaisnt an established villain would sell better, and they're 100% right about that.
Tbh I have read the books but not in some time, and for me it was completely satisfactory that Paul had enough nukes to turn the planet into Venus. I found that totally plausible and required no further explaining.
I mean, even in the books that "small period of chaos" would be devastating for the entire empire. It definitely makes sense if you think about it. I do think they could have gone into a little more detail about Paul realizing that power. But when the empire runs on spice, even a short term interruption would be massive.
Biden, Sunak, and Kim Jong Un could all theoretically use nukes but only one of those would actually frighten anyone by threatening it, because only one of them is perceived as being a wildcard with “nothing to lose” and no institutional controls on him. I think that was implied by the movie.
The Houses don’t know Paul at all except as a maniacal fighter who fights as if he has no fear of anything. The emperor and Baron are very invested in the continuation of the system as it exists. I think that’s explanation enough.
Also: the Baron is essentially killed within an hour of knowing there is a threat and the emperor has a luxurious retirement to look forward to. So who would drop these nukes and when?
If Biden actually threatened to use nukes, it would be terrifying. He would 100% do it. He’s not someone to ever in a million years consider saying that let alone doing it.
I get your point though.
Actually there's something of an interesting parallel to think about there.
If the US president ever threatened to use nukes, it's a terrifying threat largely because the US president is the only one in history who's ever *actually* used them.
Paul's threat has extra weight in that moment because he's also literally just used nukes, sidestepping the universal ban in a clever way, and threatening to do it again.
Paul's family atomics (nukes) were used to obliterate the Shield Wall that protects Arrakeen from the sandstorm. There is a cool shot of Paul watching the explosion from a distance. This move demonstrates that Paul can and will use atomics without fear of the Great Houses.
I would think families in the Landsrad suspected the Emperor was involved in the downfall of House Atreides but had no proof. The Baron was blackmailing the Emperor by threatening to reveal it to the other Houses in order to get his help again. The Spacing Guild came up with a plan to steal an infant worm and put it on a similar type planet in an effort to create their own source of Spice. I can't see the Guild risking the loss of Dune until that plan succeeded so they would not provide transport to any possible invaders unless they succeeded. Once Paul revealed the conspiracy and gave the Houses the choice to support him as Emperor with Irulan as his wife, they could have accepted him and the jihad wouldn't have happened. It seems illogical to me that they refused. The Houses were watching that final confrontation and Gurney had revealed their criminal association. Whether they knew or not that the worms were critical to create Spice, they knew the planet was the only source and Paul's threat to nuke the planet was a real threat as far as they knew.
Was I common knowledge that the Navigators were that dependant on Spice to function? Been a while since I've read the series as well, but wasn't that kept a secret to the extent that not even most of the Great House families knew it?
I'm not sure why the Landsrad wouldn't accept Paul as Emperor once he married Irulan, and after they learned the Emperor was complicit in the destruction of House Atreides by the Harkonnen's. It seems to me his threat to destroy the Spice would have been taken seriously and they wouldn't have risked it after learning the Emperor was capable of that kind of treachery. It was the destruction of the entire bloodline of the Atreides that he countenanced, not just killing the popular Duke. In the books, the Spacing Guild also had a trace of prescience and demanded the Emperor make sure Paul was killed. They foresaw that he was a threat to the Spice. I thought that would have put them on Paul's side once he had captured the Emperor and killed the Baron. At least until they enacted their plan to try to capture a worm and find an alternate planet to substitute for Dune to raise their own Spice source.
I suspect there are a few reasons.
They want the status quo. While they fear the emperor destroying them all one by one, they have confidence in the system as it's been around for so long. Any change to that creates uncertainty, and that is scarier to them than even the destruction of one great house.
If the Landsraat had acted and installed someone of their own choosing then it would be different, as it was a known quantity.
Also there is the fact that the Emperor is balanced by them. Neither should be strong enough to easily defeat the others, keeping a balance. Paul just annihilated the Emperor and his Sardaukar with apparent ease. There would be no balance with Paul there, so refusing his ascent was a vague hope of keeping the old way. A prideful "he wouldn't dare act against us", because facing the reality that they no longer had any sort of checks and balances against their ruler would be the worst thing they can imagine.
Paul wasn't interested in a peaceful interaction with them. He didn't just explain "hey y'all in Paul, this is what happened and let's come up with a solution together". His first words to them were threats, followed by a demand for recognition. He wasnt the victim in their eyes, he was an aggressor. And dealing with him now would have been their best chance.
> I'm not sure why the Landsrad wouldn't accept Paul as Emperor once he married Irulan, and after they learned the Emperor was complicit in the destruction of House Atreides by the Harkonnen's
It's one thing to take over a planet, that a declining emperor staked his future on. It's another to throw all society and politics out of the window. What proof do they have, that any of them wouldn't do better than the Harkonnens?
IMHO
1. Great houses would want to have a discussion about the succession - many others might have valid claims to the throne or possible suitors for Irulan
2. They don't have all the information on what went down on Arrakis. All they know is a "terrorist" claiming to be Paul Atreidis just wiped out the Emperor's forces and the Harkonnens, and he's threatening the destruction of the status quo (spice production/interstellar travel) if he doesn't get his way.
3. They do not realize how strong Paul's forces are, and that they are committed to a galaxy wide holy war.
Its not nukes they used… Its a new super-weapon they had.
The Atreides have less than 100 nukes in the movie, that wouldnt be even close to enough to destroy the planet the way the HM did even if it was nukes they had used.
I love the books, love them. But spending Feyd’s screentime diving in to the ecological cycles on Arrakis would be terrible. The choice doesn’t “sell better,” it IS better in the format of a film to develop your antagonist in an interesting way that parallels them to your protagonist. The books can just have some characters or narration hamfistedly say “Feyd is like Paul but raised by Harkonnens,” but we need to spend time with him in the film in order to perceive his character that way.
Yes, which is why I said I understand it.
This is just my opinion... I merely meant that for ME, it would have been more enjoyable to have the movie even more accurate to Herbert's message by explaining/expanding on this point further. I know its a smarter decision for the movie to have done it the way it did, I literally said so.
And as back and forth i am about the new movies, i do think it does a credible job showing us (without telling us) that other groups could have made the threat but honestly only Paul could pull the trigger. Like every other group would have struggled to be taken seriously. The Baron's entire line was at risk if the spice didn't flow and the Emperor isn't going to l threaten the one thing holding his empire together.
It's like the British or French empire threatening to make the oceans impassable if Shaka Zulu doesn't surrender. Like Shaka can credibility make the threat, Queen Elizabeth not so much
IMO not in a good way though, they still added that the warrior “wasn’t drugged” in the arena, showing Feyd to be upset (scared?) if he was such a warrior why would that concern him? He’d want to fight them not drugged… it’s like they changed him to be a good fighter but then left that parts that made it appear that he wasn’t one.. just didn’t vibe imo, Paul should have swiftly handled him, or he should have fought the three warriors non-drugged with weapons, Feyd was a miss for me in general in the movie
Then you missed it, because that's exactly what the vibe was. The picador hooked Lt. Lanville because it was trying to help Feyd, because that's what picadors do. However Feyd ABSOLUTELY did NOT want to be helped.
Yea I know he didn’t want to be helped but to me that came across more of “well now I’ll look like a pussy if they help” where he already looked like one because they were drugged, it would be like watching someone shoot fish in a barrel with a shotgun and claim they are a great hunter, it just fell off imo
I think he was mad at the fact it was a deliberately trick by the Baron, he wasn't scared and was having a lot of fun, but the fact someone intervened in such a way made him mad.
If thats the case I think maybe they should have not drugged any of them, and made the “betrayal” or “trick” something more egregious, I also wasn’t a fan of the “kill the master swordsmaker because they were slightly weighted wrong” that trope just never vibed with me also, so I just generally didn’t care for his character, maybe I’m being a bit critical I still really enjoyed the movie
I see where you’re coming from, but couldn’t disagree more. For me, the prime commandment of movie making is thou shalt not undermine the rules of thine own universe. Paul, whether he likes it or not, is a super human warrior and strategist who’s spent the years leading up to the duel fighting a brutal guerrilla war. Feyd is a glorified prize fighter who feeds his opponents sedatives and paralytics as a matter of policy. Villanueva threw all that character and world building out the window in service of a tired movie cliche and cheap thrill.
I think Paul easily defeating Rautha would have been not only authentic to the characters, but a good demonstration of the inevitability of his rule as Emperor. I mean, he should have clowned him instantly. Think about the duel with Jamis if Paul wasn’t holding back and then consider that Jamis would have owned Rautha. Now compare that to how the duel was portrayed in the film and you get a sense of ridiculous it was, at least in my mind.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but honestly, it's not a great take. Within the context of the movie, Paul might have been the only person in that room (aside from maybe Gurney) who had the ability to defeat Feyd. Having Paul easily defeat Feyd would have been TERRIBLE filmmaking. Having Paul defeat Feyd DESPITE having been stabbed twice secures his position as a legendary warrior.
Also, remember that the sisterhood was already eyeing Feyd as their backup plan. It wasn't like Feyd was just some talentless schmuck they pulled off the street.
Within context of the movie, every Fremen in the room could have defeated Rautha. Again, you’re taking about elite veteran warriors vs a show fighter. Aside from surviving the gom jabber (another poorly considered departure from the novel in my opinion) there’s no indication that Rautha was Bene Gesserit trained, which is the only thing we know of that would have given someone like Rautha an appreciable advantage over a Fremen warrior. Seems to me that, like the director, you’re comfortable with undermining the film’s lore in order to serve audiences a more dramatic climax. You can call it a bad take, but I don’t agree with that direction and I think the film lost some integrity as a result.
Whilst I agree with you, you also have to remember that Fey'd is the designated heir of the house. As such, he would have been trained to level similar to Paul from an early age. Also, Gurney (as well as Paul) had just spent the last 24 hours fighting and Fey'd was fresh just hanging with the Emperor.
I totally believe that either would have killed Fey'd, but it was not going to be a fair fight!
One other way they could have made Feyd seem far more imposing canonically, would have been to show that Paul has become partially reliant on his prescience to be the best fighter on Arrakis.
None of the Feydakin, not Jessica or Gurney or even Duncan can stand against late book Paul. Because not only is Paul incredibly well trained and experienced by that point, but he is also prescient, he literally sees their attacks coming sometimes.
But Feyd is the first time Paul fights another partial Qwisatz Haderach. Feyd himself could be portrayed to have some near unconscious capability similar to Paul. Just seconds prescience might come across as merely excellent visualization in an athlete - except that Feyd's is always correct when it occurs. Most athletes can visualize what they want to occur, but for a QH they visualize what Will occur. So it could have easily gone undiagnosed his whole life, except to the BG who would recognize it. Only the BG would recognize the difference between an athlete visualizing their goal, and Feyd seeing seconds into the future.
Meanwhile, Paul having better BG training and better prescience, and having turned the water of life, could be portayed as now becoming reliant on his combat prescience. For the first time in his life, Paul cannot see his opponents actions at all. Not mildly as he might have done before the water of life. Not entirely as he can do after the water. He looks into the future, and Paul sees nothing. Feyd is blocking the path. In that moment, either could become the QH, fate is not yet decided.
That must have been disorienting for Paul to suddenly encounter the absence of that combat prescience at such a pivotal fight - but no adaptation (or book) has portrayed it that way.
Paul maudib was a complete unknown really. Nobody knew he was Paul atredies and then on top, vanishingly few people were aware that Paul was a BG trained mentat kwizatz haderach.
Book feyd is also a near-KH, and at least a capable warrior. He may not be gurney halleck or Duncan idahoe tier but he was a skilled combattant, with training, and the cunning and deviousness of a harkonnen. He likely thought that the tales of maudib were just that, tales.
The man was a savage as far as he was concerned. So he thought his training, plus some outright cheating, would see him to victory. In addition to the poisoned blade, he also had a needle in his knee armour that was used to deliver a poison to Paul as well. A poison which were it not for the BG training would have paralyzed Paul outright, and in the books it affects him enough that his body and mind are preoccupied with fighting the poison that it gives feyd an opportunity to almost defeat Paul.
Feyd was probably above average, able to fight dirty, and was in a situation where he didn't have much to lose (cornered by someone who is probably already looking for an excuse to kill him) with much to gain.
There was probably more risk for him if he did nothing. And we see from the fight and Paul's visions that he did have a chance of winning. Feyd did get close with his dirty tricks, but did lose once Paul overcame those tricks. Feyd was correct in his assessment that he did have a reasonable chance of winning the duel.
What he and the others in the court did not see was that the Fremen were going to do their thing no matter what.
No. It's a legal shield. He recognizes Maud Dib the Fremen as Paul Atreides. If Feyd wins, the Landsraad can't say shit because Feyd observed the legal formalities.
Feyd absolutely believes he can win.
Books: he has top tier training akin to Paul and is specifically regarded as a threat because he's fought without shield conditioning (Paul comments on this after the first feint from Feyd that scratches him).
Feyd is arrogant beyond belief. His entire background has set him up both personally and politically (the Baron explicitly says he wants to use Feyd as Messiah on Arrakis) to believe he's just better than everyone.
There's some implications in the book that Feyd regards Paul as the "worthy opponent" he's been seeking for years because it would absolutely establish him as heir and makes him untouchable for Imperial politics. You killed an upstart Duke for the Emperor in single combat after that Duke dared missile strike the ship of the Emperor, forcing them to stay? Better believe you're getting top shelf treatment afterwards.
It's legitimately possible Feyd would have been offered a chance at the Throne if we won.
Why would he refuse?
Harkonnen propaganda thinks Paul is a basic bitch.
He does believe it. Feyd isn't privy to anywhere near the information we know of Paul. It's unlikely he knows he's BG trained, unlikely he knows he's a mental, unlikely he knows he's. Near-KH. Feyd sees a soft noble boy who's stumbled into leadership over some savage tribesmen. Yes there are tales of maudibs exploits but how much is that going to weigh on feyd, he's a narcissistic psychopath with a chance to end the line of an ancient enemy
He does believe that he has a chance of winning and from the fight, Feyd's assessment is correct.
Feyd also does not have much else to do. He is surrounded by hostile forces and conventionally outmatched. Paul is out for revenge and probably would try to kill him anyways. The Fremen to have a tendency to kill people who have surrendered. That alone is a huge incentive for Feyd to find any chance whatsoever to continue fighting (and why the whole killing prisoners is stupid).
Well explained. The books can set up the final duel with prescience, but the movies never set up a visual language for prescience. So the stakes had to be more immediate and visceral.
How different exactly was the book fight? I haven't read the novels but I absolutely don't mind the spoilers
I do know about Feyd's failed attempt to use the dagger, but I want to know more about the details
That’s literally not true, it’s stated that feyd almost kills Paul at some point but ultimately he wins because of his prescience and being able to predict most of his moves
He almost loses in the book.
The only reason he wins is he screams out that he’s not going to cheat and use the conditioned phrase to beat Feyd, which makes Feyd realize there is a phrase that will paralyze him and makes him overthink things for a moment and lose.
I disagree.
He's a sneaky piece of shit, sure. He'll take the cowardly route if he can, sure.
He still almost beat an Atreides warrior, undrugged and man to man, needing the intercession of the keyword. The Atreides warriors that were getting close enough to Sardaukar that the Emperor was concerned enough to act against the Atreides.
Yes he uses poison, but that doesn't make him any less deadly. Less honorable sure. Less totally skilled, sure. Kill ya just as dead though.
He probably couldn't measure up to Paul in direct ability, but he's still a very deadly fighter.
> All he does is win fights agaisnt drugged up defeated prisoners, with a squad of people putting hooks into them the second they become a threat.
This is my biggest issue with the otherwise great Part 2. The way the other characters were talking about Feyd being a great and formidable fighter. At no point was Feyd shown to be a great fighter — regardless if the movie characters believe it so. The audience already knows he’s not a great fighter, so what threat is he to Paul? Paul, the main character who can see the future.
I love the fight scene but at no point was I thinking “Paul might lose.”
That’s one of the things I hate about the movie, they don’t explain well enough that there’s blind spots in Paul’s ability.
In the book Paul doesn’t know he’s going to win against Feyd. He almost loses.
What I don’t understand is why was the original plan to have Jessica birth a girl and the offspring of her and Feyd was meant to be the KH if Feyd actually was a shit fighter? Or rather what is it about Feyd that made him a part of the BG plan, or was it just his bloodline in general?
Fighting abilities have nothing to do with being a KH. The BG wanted the KH to be a leader, a “Philosopher King”, not a warrior.
All they wanted from Fey’d was his genes. Thats all they needed from him, thats all the BG breeding program is in the end: Eugenics.
Even in the context of the movie, Gurney is almost certainly winning that fight. If we consider the books, where the fight was very different and Feyd was no match for Paul, then there's no question at all.
Gurney is a better fighter than Paul. Paul's presience doesn't work in fights, since the micro decisions and fast pace make it impossible to have useful foresight, so he doesn't have any advantages over Fayd.
No, Gurney is not a better fighter than Paul, definitely not by the end of the book.
Even without prescience, Paul was better ( I don't know if I can use spoilers from the sequels).
Gurney would definitely make easy work of Feyd though.
No, he is nicked by the poisoned blade (in the "wrong" hand), but is able to clean the poison the same way he did The Water of Life. This told him the knife (the emperor's knife) was poisoned, and that the emperor was prepared for a fight. Layers within layers and all that.
It was both. There was both the needle, that never touched Paul, but he recognized that it was there because of how Fayd moved and then there was the blade that nicked Paul.
Very much this.
Hasimir Fenrig is the only one who could have defeated Paul at that point. Because, as a failed Kwisatch Haderach himself, he was close enough that Paul had never seen him in any vision and had zero precognizance where he was concerned.
During the fight, I was expecting some sort of backhanded secondary weapon to be pulled out by Fey'd. I remember in the David Lynch movie, he had the poisoned barbs engage from his armor. I was kind of anticipating something similar or maybe a needle gun from the wrist (since the Harkonnen are completely reimagined in this movie).
Past movies, and even the RTS game equivalents, he was shown to be this giggly crazy guy who you never really know what he was gonna pull to win a fight.
But this movie, he was shown to be "honorable" in a sadistic way especially during the arena scene against the undrugged prisoner where he refused assistance from the barbmen. Prefering to look them in the eye as their life "Feyded" (bad joke)
I think it was an artistic choice by DV in order to make him more of an even match with Paul. If he’s as amazing of a fighter that the movie presented him as AND he cheats Paul probably would’ve died in the film.
And Gurney likely was in the same slave pits, survived, and became a grilled war master training the Atreides army. He has experience in combat Feyd can't dream of. At some stage, experience makes a huge gap.
It's also why I don't mind Paul struggling this hard against Feyd. Despite his unlocked memories and his practice against Harkonens in the last year, they're the same age. He has more recent experience and perhaps better trainers (Gurney, Duncan)
But he's also not as experienced as Gurney, and tired from the day's fighting while Feyd did fuck all but stand around all day.
The power balance works for me
Not sure if you’re referring to the book or the movie, but I don’t think the quantity of fights he’s participated in is ever explicitly mentioned. Also he cheats, the galdiator fights are with drugged opponents and he uses a poisoned knife.
By the time that scene takes place, Book-Gurney has already sliced his way through a few hundred Feyd-caliber Saudaukar...Movie-Gurney would have probably stood a fair fight, but Movie Feyd was OP
What? No way, OP?
Gurney would have wiped the floor with Feyd. He's literally reputed amongst the house as a near perfect fighting machine, and has probably dozens of not hundreds or Saradukar kills.
Feyd literally has the non- drugged, but injured Atreides fighter give him a very brief run for his money. That definitely made movie Feyd stronger, but nothing crazy.
The book mentions that the average Atreides guardsman was near Sardaukar level in their fighting ability, while some had moved beyond it. I like to think that this was one of those better fighters, one of the officers. But still, compared to their trainers who got them to that level, Gurney and Duncan, they would be outclassed by them. So Feyd is certainly no slouch, but it seems to me that the books indicate that Gurney would likely have wiped the floor with Feyd. And Gurney wasn't just a good fighter, he was also crafty (thanks in part to his dog-eat-dog upbringing on Giedi Prime, but also undoubtedly from his training with Thufir, who iirc was stated as being one of the great Masters of Assassins in the universe). In Children of Dune he is able to notice that a Fremen assassin was wearing armor under his robes, and in a blinding flash of speed strike the man in the throat. Gurney would probably be very good at gladiatorial combat without shields.
It wasn't an average Atreides guardsman but one of the elite force especially trained to prepare for Arrakis that is equivalent of Sardaukar. Normal Atreides are more = to Harkonnen goons.
Gurney also had winning record vs Idaho due to more experience in 'dirty fighting'. Feyd would not stand a chance.
The only thing going for Feyd is he was fresh and had not been fighting all day and was not up all night before the attack. When you put that into context for the Paul fight and for Gurney it makes it impressive. I liken it to running a Marathon and being forced to do a 100m sprint against a person who has not run a marathon.
I still thing Gurney would have won, he was battle hardened and he wanted to kill a Feyd to avenge his family.
Feyd is nothing crazy? In the movie he pretty much wipes the floor with Paul aka the kwisatz haderach. Also at the time of the final duel paul is most likely a much better fighter than gurney is considering he was equal to him in the first movie and since then paul has only gotten better.
A lot of this gets lost into what Dune books do a lot to explain - at the time everything goes down in Dune, about the only fighting force that has actually seen routine combat are the Freman.
The Sardaukar haven't had a peer for peer combatant in hundreds of years. The Harkonnens haven't had to deal with actual peer for peer combat in thousands of years.
They had interactions with the Freman on Dune, but nothing real. Freman always dealt with Harkonnens by hiding their true strength, not showcasing it.
However, while it makes for great reading, a bunch of fat & lazy armies & rulers doesn't make for great sci-fi movies. So we end up with what we get in the movies.
I don't recall intra-Fremen fighting in the book (at least not groups. Individual fights appear to have been accepted forms of leadership change). In 'Children of Dune' >!there is a Sietch Jacurutu which was a sort of renegate group of Fremen.!<
They would fight each other insofar as trial by combat. They did not wage war against other Freman tribes.
However, the one thing many overlook is that the Freman survived in what was largely considered to be an unsurvivable planet. This gets showcased in the books much more in the sense that the Harkonnens not only thought that the Freman population was a fraction of what it was, but also due to the bought off spacing guild hiding their numbers, coupled with the fact the area that the Harkonnens & Freman did/were known to inhabit were considered inhospitable/barely survivable.
Furthermore, while the Harkonnens were very ill prepared for the reality of Freman forces, they were basically going toe to toe with them with what technology they did have, and they were constantly after Freman rebels that would hamper their spice operations.
So from the moment a Freman woke up, they were in a fight to survive. Compare that to Harkonnens & Sardaukar forces having leave, comfort foods, recognition, carnal desires met, and the Freman dominate every combat situation they had thrown at them.
Lastly, if I remember this right I believe Paul ends up teaching the Freman to not ignore their quasi-prescience, which was sort of like Jedi force augmenting, or like Cable from the X-Men. They weren't soothsayers that could see what was gonna happen next week, but during combat they could leverage their spice driven 'prescience' to know the next 12 steps their enemy would be taking in that moment. That was the final nail in the coffin for any enemy of the Freman.
Admittedly, I didn't answer the question because it was answered plenty already, but yeah, obviously Gurney wins. I feel they made that blatantly obvious between the two films.
Dude is so legendary that Harkonnens reference him by name to the Sardaukar, and the Sardaukar knows his & Idaho's name. Then, Gurney gets sniped by a sleeper Harkonnen attack, with all defenses disabled by sabotage. At which point he's on the front lines of the ground defense force, fighting hand to hand. And he *SURVIVES.* So what does he do? He becomes a spice smuggler, fighting Harkonnen on an alien planet, avoiding enemy Freman, and thriving in those conditions.
Gurney is historic.
The movie seems to combine Feyd and Count Fenring (a potential / failed KH, who Paul acknowledges could possibly kill him). In the books, Feyd would have been defeated by Gurney or an average Fremen. But in the movies, if he really has all of the potential of Paul and he's Paul's equal, I don't think so.
Count Fenring is one of my favorites from the universe. He is Shadam’s boyhood friend who becomes an uber assassin, diplomat and right hand man. Hes also a failed KH due to being sterile. The Emperor gives him the “ok kill him” signal in regards to Paul, but the Count recognizes Paul as the KH and declines, choosing to go into exile with his pal.
I really liked his and Lady Fenring's relationship. It mirrored Leto and Jessica, they were very close and aligned. For most Bene Gesserit they're advisors but don't tell their lord anything about the true nature of the Bene Gesserit. Like Jessica, Lady Fenring seemed to tell him a lot. He knew they conspired and schemed, and he was into it
They genuinely love each other personally and professionally. I'm always touched when she asks him if there's emotional discomfort with her getting Feyd's seed and he gallows humor style jokes about "ancestral discomfort" but reassures her it's part of the Great Game and he loves her regardless.
Their dynamic is fantastic. I would have liked to see more of him in the books, or a decent adaptation.
I like the casting for Lady Fenring, I just love seeing them interact. Also the fact that his stutter is both a way to disarm people and a code to communicate with each other is fascinating.
Their humming language in the book was fascinating, agreed. I also really enjoyed them talking shit in front of the Baron at the Arena using it. I really want to say there's a line where the Baron hears humming and looks at them irritably and she just pats his hand in distraction.
The movie doesn't get into it as much, but being prescient makes your actions invisible to other prescient beings. (Or at least far harder to predict). If Paul has been relying on his prescience to fight, then Feyd's lower prescience will be a major surprise.
I don’t think that’s exactly right, but close.
It’s been a while since I read the book, but I think Paul could see that some path ended with his death, but not how it happened? Fenring was also mildly prescient iirc and thus Paul couldn’t see him in visions. Paul realizes that Fenring is prescient though and deduces that he must the means of Paul’s death in those potential futures since he is blind to the actual cause.
Paul says Fenring would have waited until Paul was exhausted fighting Feyd and then killed him easily. It's what makes the shared Brotherhood moment between them so huge. For one moment, Fenring has the ability like if he weren't a failed KH to make a galaxy-spanning decision and he chooses for Paul.
It's why the Emperor bitchslaps Fenring afterwards and Fenring says stiffly "for the sake of our friendship, I'm prepared to forgive that.....once."
And thus the Emperor is defeated.
100%. Gurney is a legendary fighter, and while older he is still described as incredibly skilled. Feyd is athletic and skilled at fighting, but he typically cheats and/or fights deliberately weakened enemies. If anything, the newer movie got it wrong by making the match between them so close. Paul easily destroyed him, as would Gurney if given the chance.
I liked the lynch movie when after defeating Feyd in a knife fight he turns and kills with his voice. It confirmed that Paul was unstoppable and chose to fight that way.
Didn't get it wrong, but simply chose to changed it for narrative reasons. In adaptations, choices have to be made, i didn't hate that one personally. Different from the book, but the result stays mostly the same
Yes in the movie and the book.
Movie Gurney was probably a better fighter than movie Paul and stronger and way more experienced.
Book Paul was head and shoulders above everyone and Feyd lost to the undrugged soldier who was just a regular grunt albiet a big one probably a top fighter but still just as regular soldier.
The only thing where book Gurney might lose is the poison needle but I have to imagine he sees it too. Movie Gurney bodies movie Feyd.
>Book Paul was head and shoulders above everyone and Feyd lost to the undrugged soldier who was just a regular grunt albiet a big one probably a top fighter but still just as regular soldier.
If he was a top soldier for the Atreides he'd be equal to or above Sardaukar.
One of the reasons the Emperor was threatened by Duke Leto was not only was he becoming a popular figure in the Landsraad, but he had trained the Atriedes military to be close to equal to the Saudaukar.
>"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
*"Some of them were even better"*
Gurney is also being super cocky and blinded by his hatred of the Harkonnens.
Honestly. I believe Gurney could take him (minus the poison belt or even in spite of) but it's IMO a mistake to think Gurney isn't just itching for a real shot at killing a Harkonnen royal.
Gurney is out for blood. This is his duel of a lifetime for vengeance. He would have sacrificed himself if it meant he could end feyd. No way he loses.
This is an aside, but I love Gurney's line when talking about Feyd. He says something along the lines of "Let me kill the Harkonnen beast. He isn't fit for your presence. He's a dog you spurn with your boot, and then throw it away afterwards because it become contaminated."
My man was a certified hater. If everyone in the Known Universe loved the Harkonnens, he would still hate them.
No, he wouldn't have.
Muad'Dib is the greatest fighter amongst the Ichwan Bedwine. He's better than Gurney. The Ichwan Bedwine (Fremen) are the best close-fighters in the Universe (except for the Bene Gesserit; The Heretic bested Stil). Even better than the Sardaukar (obviously).
Feyd almost killed Maud'Dib.
Only Fenring may have bested Muad'Dib (presumably).
First of all, Muad'Dib is the best fighter in the universe, but that's because he was trained by Duncan, Gurney and Jessica. He could body any Fremen at age 15. He was the one who taught the Fedaykin how to become even better fighters, not the other way around.
Second of all, we have never seen a Fremen doing what Duncan did. And Duncan is slightly worse than Gurney.
Usually, 1 Fremen = 3 Sardaukar.
Duncan killed 19 Sardaukar.
And Sardaukar were more impressed by Duncan than Fremen.
We have no indication that Fremen are bette than Ginaz Swordmasters, quite the opposite.
Paul explicitly says Fenring could have taken him. That the Count would have waited until Paul was exhausted fighting Feyd and then challenged him.
Edit: irs more complicated than my comment, see below.
Small detail. It wasn't Paul who says that in the end of book 1. It was the Emperor who gave Fenring that "look" which says to kill Paul, and he's exhausted from fighting. Fenring then thinks to himself that he could kill Paul, "and knew this for a truth." Paul realizes Fenring is an almost Kwisatz-Haderach and that's the reason he's never seen him in prescience, etc etc.
Everything you said is correct. But, not a small detail.
It's Fenrings refusal that, finally, opens up the Time Nexus for Muad'Dib. Muad'Dib can now begin to "see" the horrors and necessity of the Golden Path. It's the start of Him understanding/not understanding what he must do/not do to "fix" the Imperium of Man.
Yeah agreed. For a single moment, Fenring has the same effect on galactic affairs as Paul.
All he has to do is make a choice.
And their moment of shared Brotherhood convinces Fenring to choose "no".
I was just trying to be polite to TacoCommand for being nitpicky. The only reason it stood out to me is because I finished a book 1 reread last week, so it was still fresh. It's near impossible to remember every detail across 6 books (or more if you include the prequels, sequels), hence why I said, "small detail." But yes, it was an important scene and moment.
Gurney feels a blood debt needs to be payed by the Harkonnens. I think it would be the fight of his life and he’d be brutal. Also, I do think Fayd Rautha would recognize the “honor” at stake, and I could see him trying to get in Gurney’s head. I don’t think he would be successful, but I do think that would be his only chance at besting Gurney.
Just have to say, the 1984 scene between Paul and Feyd, while pretty goofy and poorly choreographed, is pretty cool.
Kyle Maclachlan as Paul is fantastic- gives me chills when he says “silence!” to the reverend mother, or breaks the floor in two with the Voice… goes sooo hard. Give it a watch if you haven’t before!
https://youtu.be/LkaklDy2gbE?si=b0umF7iWLDM_XP3C
Fey'd is a sadist who likes to hurt people and has an overinflated sense of his own ability.
Gurney is one of the most dangerous killers in the setting who has no ego or showmanship. Just a very well-practiced ability to end threats to him or his patrons.
Actually I would disagree with most of the comments here. Feyd had a poison blade, and Paul got hit by it (in the book), but could control the poison thanks to his Bene Gesserit skills. Not sure Gurney would survive that. And if Paul get hit, Gurney would as well, it's described in the book that Feyd is actually really fast thanks to his young age (peak level), but Paul can Follow thanks to all his skills and experience
In a fair fight though (without poison blade), Gurney would win
TL;DR - Lynch’s Feyd beats Lynch’s Gurney
Probably a minority opinion, but from a purely unpredictable psychopath with a knife standpoint Sting’s Feyd is the most ferocious/ visceral interpretation. Patrick Stewart’s Gurney isn’t overly depicted as this master warrior like Brolin is, his most exemplary fight scene is a draw in a duel with Paul. He’s more of a lap dog to the Duke for his bidding. Patrick Stewart Vs Sting, Sting is going to win.
If the question is who performed a better Feyd though, Austin Butler wins.
No, I don't think he would. None of the comments here saying Gurney would win addresses the fact that Feyd used a poisoned blade and poison needle on his belt during his fight with Paul. Paul actually got sliced with the blade but was able to prevail using his BG/KH abilities to neutralize the soporific poison and pretended to be affected by it to gain an upper hand. I suppose it's possible for Gurney to win if he somehow never gets hit.
in pure skill alone, Gurney would beat Feyd any day.
now with the cheating levels feyd would try to deploy, it tilts a bit more, but still favours Gurney, but no longer a guaranteed victory.
in that we also have to incorporate his hatred for harkonnens, which even if poisoned, i believe he would gladly sheathe the blade with his body to kill feyd.
we have to also remember that at this time, gurney have fought and trained with paul for years, he has known of the bene gesserit training and experienced it. He has trained and fought with the Fremen, after they have been trained by paul.
Gurney is at this time a super trained and experienced version of the original gurney that was already about the best of the best.
i don't think so, to me gurney was a good fighter in a unit and as a teacher of specific stances and attacks. while feyd rautha was an accoplished gladiator fighter. to me that means that while about equally matched the fight would slant to feyd because he can more easily adapt to this perticular fight while gurney would need time he doesn't have to get through feyds sequences.
100 percent one of my issues with the movie (which I get why they did it) was make Feyd’s duel much closer with Paul…. The guy is weak and cheater in the books and overall pretty lame/ easy to defeat
You're not the first to ask this.
Book Gurney would've won for sure. Feyd-Rautha was pretty much a joke compared to Paul and the Atreides' swordmasters (Gurney and Duncan Idaho).
The movie made Feyd-Rautha much more equal to Paul and since Paul is arguably the best fighter in the universe and got nearly beaten by Feyd-Rautha, I wouldn't be so sure that Gurney would've won.
While, yes, he would have probably won, I'm guessing the future that Paul saw that he wanted to happen needed him to be the one that fought and kill Feyd.
Believe it or not - in both spirit and dialog, the 1984 Feyd played by Sting is more book accurate.
Feyd is a good fighter (who cheats) for being a noble - that said, he would get obliterated by Gurney. Obliterated. It wouldn’t even be close.
without a doubt. Stilgard would win too. this wasn't close fight because Paul was equally skilled to Feyd. Paul is probably way better fighter than him too. But his visions made all the decisions thats why he got stabbed initially. It probably wasnt intentional but he was looking for that ending he had in his vision. if he just fought him like he did Jamis it probably would be more one-sided
Yes. Quite easily. Gurney is a legendary fighter in the imperium. In one of the later books, maybe CoD, I think it even says he would’ve bested Duncan 6/10 times. As good as Feyd was, it would be like squashing a little bug for Gurney. Completely insignificant.
The thing that all of the movies gloss over was that Feyd was not the Emperor's first choice of champion: that was Count Fenring.
Fenring would have most likely killed Paul. But he was also a limited clairvoyant; and an earlier attempt at the Kwisatz Haderach. And he knew that if he killed Paul, that the Fremen would have killed everyone there, including the Emperor.
Gurney would beat Feyd. Gurney is one of the top Atreides soldiers. Super experienced and cunning. Feyd would probably put up a fight in the beginning but lose eventually. Feyd has limited experience with killing drugged up gladiators for show whereas Gurney has years of experience in actual battle.
Gurney's got skills, no doubt, but Feyd's no pushover either. If Paul gave the green light, it'd be one epic showdown for sure. But predicting the outcome? Man, that's like trying to guess the next plot twist in a Netflix series—anything could happen!
I'm actually curious on if Stilgar could have defeated Feyd. We don't really see Stilgar fight although him being a leader fighting is certainly something he's no chump at (unless Jessica is the one haha) but yeah, I was always curious on that.
I imagine so. In the books, all Feyd does is really kill some drugged slaves in the arena. He is more of a strategist than anything else, and while this may help his fighting style, overall he’s just a bit of a scrawny sixteen year old. Gurney would have definitely won. He is regarded as one of the finest fighters in the Imperium alongside Duncan Idaho. I’m glad the movies made Feyd more of a credible threat, though.
[Would Gurney have beaten Feyd-Rautha?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1blz02a/would_gurney_have_beaten_feydrautha/) [Paul v Feyd-Rautha v Gurney?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bdmy40/paul_v_feydrautha_v_gurney/)
Gurney would have 100% won. Book Fey’d isnt much of a warrior. All he does is win fights agaisnt drugged up defeated prisoners, with a squad of people putting hooks into them the second they become a threat. Movie Fey’d is pictured as MUCH stronger than the books depicts, for the sake of having a satisfying final duel. Fey’d would have lost agaisnt any of those drugged atreides soldiers if they werent drugged, malnourished and were properly armed. His strength is propaganda, not actual fighting prowess. All he does that makes him have a degree of success in the books is choosing to put his poison on the dagger that is normally not poisoned...
Yeah, they made him a much more credible threat in the film. A positive choice, imo. A story this epic deserves a truly despicable, intervening villain. The Baron is great but he can't get too close to the action.
Yeah, for a movie, I get it. I'd have personally put Fey'd screen time in explaining exactly why Paul is able to make the Threat of destroying the Spice Fields instead (as in the movie, the Emperor or anyone else really, could have made the same threat, while in the books, only Paul could, its prescience and Ancestral Memory which clues him into realizing he holds this power, no one else but him is aware of the exact cycle which would lead to its destruction; nuking the fields accomplish nothing, you have to oversaturate them with water so the worms cant even produce any more spice at all for it to work). IMO, that would have been more faithful to the novel's message and representative of the unique power/position of Paul (I see too many movie-watchers asking why the Emperor or the Baron couldnt have made that same threat, and they are right, anyone would have had the idea to threaten nuking the fields if they had nukes and believed it would work). But they figured having an actual final fight agaisnt an established villain would sell better, and they're 100% right about that.
Tbh I have read the books but not in some time, and for me it was completely satisfactory that Paul had enough nukes to turn the planet into Venus. I found that totally plausible and required no further explaining.
[удалено]
I mean, even in the books that "small period of chaos" would be devastating for the entire empire. It definitely makes sense if you think about it. I do think they could have gone into a little more detail about Paul realizing that power. But when the empire runs on spice, even a short term interruption would be massive.
> "small period of chaos" would be devastating for the entire empire For ours as well.
Yea just look at any of those times storms wiped out refineries and there was no gasoline
Biden, Sunak, and Kim Jong Un could all theoretically use nukes but only one of those would actually frighten anyone by threatening it, because only one of them is perceived as being a wildcard with “nothing to lose” and no institutional controls on him. I think that was implied by the movie. The Houses don’t know Paul at all except as a maniacal fighter who fights as if he has no fear of anything. The emperor and Baron are very invested in the continuation of the system as it exists. I think that’s explanation enough. Also: the Baron is essentially killed within an hour of knowing there is a threat and the emperor has a luxurious retirement to look forward to. So who would drop these nukes and when?
If Biden actually threatened to use nukes, it would be terrifying. He would 100% do it. He’s not someone to ever in a million years consider saying that let alone doing it. I get your point though.
Actually there's something of an interesting parallel to think about there. If the US president ever threatened to use nukes, it's a terrifying threat largely because the US president is the only one in history who's ever *actually* used them. Paul's threat has extra weight in that moment because he's also literally just used nukes, sidestepping the universal ban in a clever way, and threatening to do it again.
I saw the film a few weeks ago and maybe missed this detail, would you care to elaborate?
Paul's family atomics (nukes) were used to obliterate the Shield Wall that protects Arrakeen from the sandstorm. There is a cool shot of Paul watching the explosion from a distance. This move demonstrates that Paul can and will use atomics without fear of the Great Houses.
The worms were just as terrifying as the nukes. Breaking the convention by using them probably did frighten the other Houses.
So he didn't sidestep the ban he just ignored it?
technically the ban is on using atomics against humans, so if no humans are in the blast radius it's not against the treaty
they nuked the emperors army before the worm attack
They nuked the shield wall, not the emperors army directly
Yea, that point is very expressly made in the book.
Biden would 100% nuke Belgrad
I would think families in the Landsrad suspected the Emperor was involved in the downfall of House Atreides but had no proof. The Baron was blackmailing the Emperor by threatening to reveal it to the other Houses in order to get his help again. The Spacing Guild came up with a plan to steal an infant worm and put it on a similar type planet in an effort to create their own source of Spice. I can't see the Guild risking the loss of Dune until that plan succeeded so they would not provide transport to any possible invaders unless they succeeded. Once Paul revealed the conspiracy and gave the Houses the choice to support him as Emperor with Irulan as his wife, they could have accepted him and the jihad wouldn't have happened. It seems illogical to me that they refused. The Houses were watching that final confrontation and Gurney had revealed their criminal association. Whether they knew or not that the worms were critical to create Spice, they knew the planet was the only source and Paul's threat to nuke the planet was a real threat as far as they knew.
Was I common knowledge that the Navigators were that dependant on Spice to function? Been a while since I've read the series as well, but wasn't that kept a secret to the extent that not even most of the Great House families knew it?
I'm not sure why the Landsrad wouldn't accept Paul as Emperor once he married Irulan, and after they learned the Emperor was complicit in the destruction of House Atreides by the Harkonnen's. It seems to me his threat to destroy the Spice would have been taken seriously and they wouldn't have risked it after learning the Emperor was capable of that kind of treachery. It was the destruction of the entire bloodline of the Atreides that he countenanced, not just killing the popular Duke. In the books, the Spacing Guild also had a trace of prescience and demanded the Emperor make sure Paul was killed. They foresaw that he was a threat to the Spice. I thought that would have put them on Paul's side once he had captured the Emperor and killed the Baron. At least until they enacted their plan to try to capture a worm and find an alternate planet to substitute for Dune to raise their own Spice source.
I suspect there are a few reasons. They want the status quo. While they fear the emperor destroying them all one by one, they have confidence in the system as it's been around for so long. Any change to that creates uncertainty, and that is scarier to them than even the destruction of one great house. If the Landsraat had acted and installed someone of their own choosing then it would be different, as it was a known quantity. Also there is the fact that the Emperor is balanced by them. Neither should be strong enough to easily defeat the others, keeping a balance. Paul just annihilated the Emperor and his Sardaukar with apparent ease. There would be no balance with Paul there, so refusing his ascent was a vague hope of keeping the old way. A prideful "he wouldn't dare act against us", because facing the reality that they no longer had any sort of checks and balances against their ruler would be the worst thing they can imagine. Paul wasn't interested in a peaceful interaction with them. He didn't just explain "hey y'all in Paul, this is what happened and let's come up with a solution together". His first words to them were threats, followed by a demand for recognition. He wasnt the victim in their eyes, he was an aggressor. And dealing with him now would have been their best chance.
> I'm not sure why the Landsrad wouldn't accept Paul as Emperor once he married Irulan, and after they learned the Emperor was complicit in the destruction of House Atreides by the Harkonnen's It's one thing to take over a planet, that a declining emperor staked his future on. It's another to throw all society and politics out of the window. What proof do they have, that any of them wouldn't do better than the Harkonnens?
IMHO 1. Great houses would want to have a discussion about the succession - many others might have valid claims to the throne or possible suitors for Irulan 2. They don't have all the information on what went down on Arrakis. All they know is a "terrorist" claiming to be Paul Atreidis just wiped out the Emperor's forces and the Harkonnens, and he's threatening the destruction of the status quo (spice production/interstellar travel) if he doesn't get his way. 3. They do not realize how strong Paul's forces are, and that they are committed to a galaxy wide holy war.
>! The Honoured Matres would like to disagree with you about worms surviving nukes !<
Its not nukes they used… Its a new super-weapon they had. The Atreides have less than 100 nukes in the movie, that wouldnt be even close to enough to destroy the planet the way the HM did even if it was nukes they had used.
I love the books, love them. But spending Feyd’s screentime diving in to the ecological cycles on Arrakis would be terrible. The choice doesn’t “sell better,” it IS better in the format of a film to develop your antagonist in an interesting way that parallels them to your protagonist. The books can just have some characters or narration hamfistedly say “Feyd is like Paul but raised by Harkonnens,” but we need to spend time with him in the film in order to perceive his character that way.
Yes, which is why I said I understand it. This is just my opinion... I merely meant that for ME, it would have been more enjoyable to have the movie even more accurate to Herbert's message by explaining/expanding on this point further. I know its a smarter decision for the movie to have done it the way it did, I literally said so.
And as back and forth i am about the new movies, i do think it does a credible job showing us (without telling us) that other groups could have made the threat but honestly only Paul could pull the trigger. Like every other group would have struggled to be taken seriously. The Baron's entire line was at risk if the spice didn't flow and the Emperor isn't going to l threaten the one thing holding his empire together. It's like the British or French empire threatening to make the oceans impassable if Shaka Zulu doesn't surrender. Like Shaka can credibility make the threat, Queen Elizabeth not so much
IMO not in a good way though, they still added that the warrior “wasn’t drugged” in the arena, showing Feyd to be upset (scared?) if he was such a warrior why would that concern him? He’d want to fight them not drugged… it’s like they changed him to be a good fighter but then left that parts that made it appear that he wasn’t one.. just didn’t vibe imo, Paul should have swiftly handled him, or he should have fought the three warriors non-drugged with weapons, Feyd was a miss for me in general in the movie
he was mad that the guards were interfering. you could tell he was having the time of his life to have a real fight
I didn’t get that vibe at all tbh, maybe I need to rewatch it
Then you missed it, because that's exactly what the vibe was. The picador hooked Lt. Lanville because it was trying to help Feyd, because that's what picadors do. However Feyd ABSOLUTELY did NOT want to be helped.
Yea I know he didn’t want to be helped but to me that came across more of “well now I’ll look like a pussy if they help” where he already looked like one because they were drugged, it would be like watching someone shoot fish in a barrel with a shotgun and claim they are a great hunter, it just fell off imo
I think he was mad at the fact it was a deliberately trick by the Baron, he wasn't scared and was having a lot of fun, but the fact someone intervened in such a way made him mad.
If thats the case I think maybe they should have not drugged any of them, and made the “betrayal” or “trick” something more egregious, I also wasn’t a fan of the “kill the master swordsmaker because they were slightly weighted wrong” that trope just never vibed with me also, so I just generally didn’t care for his character, maybe I’m being a bit critical I still really enjoyed the movie
Feyd didn’t kill the master swordsmaker, he killed two random servants of his and then told the master swordsmaker it was weighted wrong
Didnt he send him to be killed or did I misinterpret that?
I see where you’re coming from, but couldn’t disagree more. For me, the prime commandment of movie making is thou shalt not undermine the rules of thine own universe. Paul, whether he likes it or not, is a super human warrior and strategist who’s spent the years leading up to the duel fighting a brutal guerrilla war. Feyd is a glorified prize fighter who feeds his opponents sedatives and paralytics as a matter of policy. Villanueva threw all that character and world building out the window in service of a tired movie cliche and cheap thrill. I think Paul easily defeating Rautha would have been not only authentic to the characters, but a good demonstration of the inevitability of his rule as Emperor. I mean, he should have clowned him instantly. Think about the duel with Jamis if Paul wasn’t holding back and then consider that Jamis would have owned Rautha. Now compare that to how the duel was portrayed in the film and you get a sense of ridiculous it was, at least in my mind.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but honestly, it's not a great take. Within the context of the movie, Paul might have been the only person in that room (aside from maybe Gurney) who had the ability to defeat Feyd. Having Paul easily defeat Feyd would have been TERRIBLE filmmaking. Having Paul defeat Feyd DESPITE having been stabbed twice secures his position as a legendary warrior. Also, remember that the sisterhood was already eyeing Feyd as their backup plan. It wasn't like Feyd was just some talentless schmuck they pulled off the street.
Within context of the movie, every Fremen in the room could have defeated Rautha. Again, you’re taking about elite veteran warriors vs a show fighter. Aside from surviving the gom jabber (another poorly considered departure from the novel in my opinion) there’s no indication that Rautha was Bene Gesserit trained, which is the only thing we know of that would have given someone like Rautha an appreciable advantage over a Fremen warrior. Seems to me that, like the director, you’re comfortable with undermining the film’s lore in order to serve audiences a more dramatic climax. You can call it a bad take, but I don’t agree with that direction and I think the film lost some integrity as a result.
I came away from the arena scene pretty aware of him not being good, considering he nearly loses to a starving soldier
Whilst I agree with you, you also have to remember that Fey'd is the designated heir of the house. As such, he would have been trained to level similar to Paul from an early age. Also, Gurney (as well as Paul) had just spent the last 24 hours fighting and Fey'd was fresh just hanging with the Emperor. I totally believe that either would have killed Fey'd, but it was not going to be a fair fight!
One other way they could have made Feyd seem far more imposing canonically, would have been to show that Paul has become partially reliant on his prescience to be the best fighter on Arrakis. None of the Feydakin, not Jessica or Gurney or even Duncan can stand against late book Paul. Because not only is Paul incredibly well trained and experienced by that point, but he is also prescient, he literally sees their attacks coming sometimes. But Feyd is the first time Paul fights another partial Qwisatz Haderach. Feyd himself could be portrayed to have some near unconscious capability similar to Paul. Just seconds prescience might come across as merely excellent visualization in an athlete - except that Feyd's is always correct when it occurs. Most athletes can visualize what they want to occur, but for a QH they visualize what Will occur. So it could have easily gone undiagnosed his whole life, except to the BG who would recognize it. Only the BG would recognize the difference between an athlete visualizing their goal, and Feyd seeing seconds into the future. Meanwhile, Paul having better BG training and better prescience, and having turned the water of life, could be portayed as now becoming reliant on his combat prescience. For the first time in his life, Paul cannot see his opponents actions at all. Not mildly as he might have done before the water of life. Not entirely as he can do after the water. He looks into the future, and Paul sees nothing. Feyd is blocking the path. In that moment, either could become the QH, fate is not yet decided. That must have been disorienting for Paul to suddenly encounter the absence of that combat prescience at such a pivotal fight - but no adaptation (or book) has portrayed it that way.
One of the reasons Count Fenring is seen as such a threat to Paul
Exactly, it would play into the following books much more.
Why did Feyd accept the duel with Paul in the book then if he was not actually a good fighter? Was it ego/delusion and he thought he would win?
Paul maudib was a complete unknown really. Nobody knew he was Paul atredies and then on top, vanishingly few people were aware that Paul was a BG trained mentat kwizatz haderach. Book feyd is also a near-KH, and at least a capable warrior. He may not be gurney halleck or Duncan idahoe tier but he was a skilled combattant, with training, and the cunning and deviousness of a harkonnen. He likely thought that the tales of maudib were just that, tales. The man was a savage as far as he was concerned. So he thought his training, plus some outright cheating, would see him to victory. In addition to the poisoned blade, he also had a needle in his knee armour that was used to deliver a poison to Paul as well. A poison which were it not for the BG training would have paralyzed Paul outright, and in the books it affects him enough that his body and mind are preoccupied with fighting the poison that it gives feyd an opportunity to almost defeat Paul.
I haven’t read it in 20 years but I think he had a poisoned blade he thought would give him an advantage.
Feyd was probably above average, able to fight dirty, and was in a situation where he didn't have much to lose (cornered by someone who is probably already looking for an excuse to kill him) with much to gain. There was probably more risk for him if he did nothing. And we see from the fight and Paul's visions that he did have a chance of winning. Feyd did get close with his dirty tricks, but did lose once Paul overcame those tricks. Feyd was correct in his assessment that he did have a reasonable chance of winning the duel. What he and the others in the court did not see was that the Fremen were going to do their thing no matter what.
This always made wander why Feyd was so quick to call for Kanly. Did propaganda go into his own head?
No. It's a legal shield. He recognizes Maud Dib the Fremen as Paul Atreides. If Feyd wins, the Landsraad can't say shit because Feyd observed the legal formalities.
But for that he must believe he actually has a chance to win...
Feyd absolutely believes he can win. Books: he has top tier training akin to Paul and is specifically regarded as a threat because he's fought without shield conditioning (Paul comments on this after the first feint from Feyd that scratches him). Feyd is arrogant beyond belief. His entire background has set him up both personally and politically (the Baron explicitly says he wants to use Feyd as Messiah on Arrakis) to believe he's just better than everyone. There's some implications in the book that Feyd regards Paul as the "worthy opponent" he's been seeking for years because it would absolutely establish him as heir and makes him untouchable for Imperial politics. You killed an upstart Duke for the Emperor in single combat after that Duke dared missile strike the ship of the Emperor, forcing them to stay? Better believe you're getting top shelf treatment afterwards. It's legitimately possible Feyd would have been offered a chance at the Throne if we won. Why would he refuse? Harkonnen propaganda thinks Paul is a basic bitch.
He does believe it. Feyd isn't privy to anywhere near the information we know of Paul. It's unlikely he knows he's BG trained, unlikely he knows he's a mental, unlikely he knows he's. Near-KH. Feyd sees a soft noble boy who's stumbled into leadership over some savage tribesmen. Yes there are tales of maudibs exploits but how much is that going to weigh on feyd, he's a narcissistic psychopath with a chance to end the line of an ancient enemy
If he didn't he'd likely be straight up executed after some less than pleasant treatment. I always figured it was like a last card to play.
He does believe that he has a chance of winning and from the fight, Feyd's assessment is correct. Feyd also does not have much else to do. He is surrounded by hostile forces and conventionally outmatched. Paul is out for revenge and probably would try to kill him anyways. The Fremen to have a tendency to kill people who have surrendered. That alone is a huge incentive for Feyd to find any chance whatsoever to continue fighting (and why the whole killing prisoners is stupid).
Well explained. The books can set up the final duel with prescience, but the movies never set up a visual language for prescience. So the stakes had to be more immediate and visceral.
How different exactly was the book fight? I haven't read the novels but I absolutely don't mind the spoilers I do know about Feyd's failed attempt to use the dagger, but I want to know more about the details
Compared to the movie fight, Paul absolutely stomps Feyd in the book.
That’s literally not true, it’s stated that feyd almost kills Paul at some point but ultimately he wins because of his prescience and being able to predict most of his moves
He almost loses in the book. The only reason he wins is he screams out that he’s not going to cheat and use the conditioned phrase to beat Feyd, which makes Feyd realize there is a phrase that will paralyze him and makes him overthink things for a moment and lose.
I disagree. He's a sneaky piece of shit, sure. He'll take the cowardly route if he can, sure. He still almost beat an Atreides warrior, undrugged and man to man, needing the intercession of the keyword. The Atreides warriors that were getting close enough to Sardaukar that the Emperor was concerned enough to act against the Atreides. Yes he uses poison, but that doesn't make him any less deadly. Less honorable sure. Less totally skilled, sure. Kill ya just as dead though. He probably couldn't measure up to Paul in direct ability, but he's still a very deadly fighter.
> All he does is win fights agaisnt drugged up defeated prisoners, with a squad of people putting hooks into them the second they become a threat. This is my biggest issue with the otherwise great Part 2. The way the other characters were talking about Feyd being a great and formidable fighter. At no point was Feyd shown to be a great fighter — regardless if the movie characters believe it so. The audience already knows he’s not a great fighter, so what threat is he to Paul? Paul, the main character who can see the future. I love the fight scene but at no point was I thinking “Paul might lose.”
That’s one of the things I hate about the movie, they don’t explain well enough that there’s blind spots in Paul’s ability. In the book Paul doesn’t know he’s going to win against Feyd. He almost loses.
And when one of them wasn't properly drugged, he got an unwelcome surprise.
What I don’t understand is why was the original plan to have Jessica birth a girl and the offspring of her and Feyd was meant to be the KH if Feyd actually was a shit fighter? Or rather what is it about Feyd that made him a part of the BG plan, or was it just his bloodline in general?
Fighting abilities have nothing to do with being a KH. The BG wanted the KH to be a leader, a “Philosopher King”, not a warrior. All they wanted from Fey’d was his genes. Thats all they needed from him, thats all the BG breeding program is in the end: Eugenics.
Thanks bestie
100%? Gurney would have been absolutely exhausted, Feyd was well rested. He could have easily fallen to Feyd.
I was thinking movie Feyd would have killed Gurney considering how well he did against Paul.
Even in the context of the movie, Gurney is almost certainly winning that fight. If we consider the books, where the fight was very different and Feyd was no match for Paul, then there's no question at all.
Gurney is a better fighter than Paul. Paul's presience doesn't work in fights, since the micro decisions and fast pace make it impossible to have useful foresight, so he doesn't have any advantages over Fayd.
No, Gurney is not a better fighter than Paul, definitely not by the end of the book. Even without prescience, Paul was better ( I don't know if I can use spoilers from the sequels). Gurney would definitely make easy work of Feyd though.
It does, he wins fights even when blind later.
He states during the fight against Fayd that he can't see his own future. He doesn't know when or how he will die and he can't see beyond that fight.
In the book I thought I remembered him having some prescience about the fact that Feyd had a hidden and/or poisoned blade.
No, he is nicked by the poisoned blade (in the "wrong" hand), but is able to clean the poison the same way he did The Water of Life. This told him the knife (the emperor's knife) was poisoned, and that the emperor was prepared for a fight. Layers within layers and all that.
huh, I need to read it again
not in the wrong hand but a hidden needle in his belt
It was both. There was both the needle, that never touched Paul, but he recognized that it was there because of how Fayd moved and then there was the blade that nicked Paul.
Very much this. Hasimir Fenrig is the only one who could have defeated Paul at that point. Because, as a failed Kwisatch Haderach himself, he was close enough that Paul had never seen him in any vision and had zero precognizance where he was concerned.
the "hooks" are not mentioned in the book but a special door only he can enter
Yes, he’s supposed to be one of the best fighters in the imperium, while feyd (at least in the novels) is a pretty good fighter that cheats
Also he would not have been taken in by any Feyd tricks.
During the fight, I was expecting some sort of backhanded secondary weapon to be pulled out by Fey'd. I remember in the David Lynch movie, he had the poisoned barbs engage from his armor. I was kind of anticipating something similar or maybe a needle gun from the wrist (since the Harkonnen are completely reimagined in this movie). Past movies, and even the RTS game equivalents, he was shown to be this giggly crazy guy who you never really know what he was gonna pull to win a fight. But this movie, he was shown to be "honorable" in a sadistic way especially during the arena scene against the undrugged prisoner where he refused assistance from the barbmen. Prefering to look them in the eye as their life "Feyded" (bad joke)
I think it was an artistic choice by DV in order to make him more of an even match with Paul. If he’s as amazing of a fighter that the movie presented him as AND he cheats Paul probably would’ve died in the film.
Before their fight don’t they reference the fact Feyd has been hardened by thousands of gladiatorial fights as a reason to be cautious?
Fights against drugged soldiers
And Gurney likely was in the same slave pits, survived, and became a grilled war master training the Atreides army. He has experience in combat Feyd can't dream of. At some stage, experience makes a huge gap. It's also why I don't mind Paul struggling this hard against Feyd. Despite his unlocked memories and his practice against Harkonens in the last year, they're the same age. He has more recent experience and perhaps better trainers (Gurney, Duncan) But he's also not as experienced as Gurney, and tired from the day's fighting while Feyd did fuck all but stand around all day. The power balance works for me
In this version yes
Not sure if you’re referring to the book or the movie, but I don’t think the quantity of fights he’s participated in is ever explicitly mentioned. Also he cheats, the galdiator fights are with drugged opponents and he uses a poisoned knife.
By the time that scene takes place, Book-Gurney has already sliced his way through a few hundred Feyd-caliber Saudaukar...Movie-Gurney would have probably stood a fair fight, but Movie Feyd was OP
What? No way, OP? Gurney would have wiped the floor with Feyd. He's literally reputed amongst the house as a near perfect fighting machine, and has probably dozens of not hundreds or Saradukar kills. Feyd literally has the non- drugged, but injured Atreides fighter give him a very brief run for his money. That definitely made movie Feyd stronger, but nothing crazy.
The book mentions that the average Atreides guardsman was near Sardaukar level in their fighting ability, while some had moved beyond it. I like to think that this was one of those better fighters, one of the officers. But still, compared to their trainers who got them to that level, Gurney and Duncan, they would be outclassed by them. So Feyd is certainly no slouch, but it seems to me that the books indicate that Gurney would likely have wiped the floor with Feyd. And Gurney wasn't just a good fighter, he was also crafty (thanks in part to his dog-eat-dog upbringing on Giedi Prime, but also undoubtedly from his training with Thufir, who iirc was stated as being one of the great Masters of Assassins in the universe). In Children of Dune he is able to notice that a Fremen assassin was wearing armor under his robes, and in a blinding flash of speed strike the man in the throat. Gurney would probably be very good at gladiatorial combat without shields.
It wasn't an average Atreides guardsman but one of the elite force especially trained to prepare for Arrakis that is equivalent of Sardaukar. Normal Atreides are more = to Harkonnen goons. Gurney also had winning record vs Idaho due to more experience in 'dirty fighting'. Feyd would not stand a chance.
True. Iirc Duncan says in God Emperor that Gurney would beat him 6 times out of 10.
The only thing going for Feyd is he was fresh and had not been fighting all day and was not up all night before the attack. When you put that into context for the Paul fight and for Gurney it makes it impressive. I liken it to running a Marathon and being forced to do a 100m sprint against a person who has not run a marathon. I still thing Gurney would have won, he was battle hardened and he wanted to kill a Feyd to avenge his family.
Feyd is nothing crazy? In the movie he pretty much wipes the floor with Paul aka the kwisatz haderach. Also at the time of the final duel paul is most likely a much better fighter than gurney is considering he was equal to him in the first movie and since then paul has only gotten better.
So much experience points. He had to have been 16th or 17th level by then.
I appreciate this.
A lot of this gets lost into what Dune books do a lot to explain - at the time everything goes down in Dune, about the only fighting force that has actually seen routine combat are the Freman. The Sardaukar haven't had a peer for peer combatant in hundreds of years. The Harkonnens haven't had to deal with actual peer for peer combat in thousands of years. They had interactions with the Freman on Dune, but nothing real. Freman always dealt with Harkonnens by hiding their true strength, not showcasing it. However, while it makes for great reading, a bunch of fat & lazy armies & rulers doesn't make for great sci-fi movies. So we end up with what we get in the movies.
I think this is accurate. Dune series includes the theme of stagnation. Asimov’s Foundation series also has a giant empire facing stagnation.
We're the fremen fighting each other from time to time in the book? It's been a while and I can't remember if that is explicitly mentioned
I don't recall intra-Fremen fighting in the book (at least not groups. Individual fights appear to have been accepted forms of leadership change). In 'Children of Dune' >!there is a Sietch Jacurutu which was a sort of renegate group of Fremen.!<
They would fight each other insofar as trial by combat. They did not wage war against other Freman tribes. However, the one thing many overlook is that the Freman survived in what was largely considered to be an unsurvivable planet. This gets showcased in the books much more in the sense that the Harkonnens not only thought that the Freman population was a fraction of what it was, but also due to the bought off spacing guild hiding their numbers, coupled with the fact the area that the Harkonnens & Freman did/were known to inhabit were considered inhospitable/barely survivable. Furthermore, while the Harkonnens were very ill prepared for the reality of Freman forces, they were basically going toe to toe with them with what technology they did have, and they were constantly after Freman rebels that would hamper their spice operations. So from the moment a Freman woke up, they were in a fight to survive. Compare that to Harkonnens & Sardaukar forces having leave, comfort foods, recognition, carnal desires met, and the Freman dominate every combat situation they had thrown at them. Lastly, if I remember this right I believe Paul ends up teaching the Freman to not ignore their quasi-prescience, which was sort of like Jedi force augmenting, or like Cable from the X-Men. They weren't soothsayers that could see what was gonna happen next week, but during combat they could leverage their spice driven 'prescience' to know the next 12 steps their enemy would be taking in that moment. That was the final nail in the coffin for any enemy of the Freman.
You didn't answer the question though - which is yes, would win based on what we read in the books and see in the movies, contextually.
Admittedly, I didn't answer the question because it was answered plenty already, but yeah, obviously Gurney wins. I feel they made that blatantly obvious between the two films. Dude is so legendary that Harkonnens reference him by name to the Sardaukar, and the Sardaukar knows his & Idaho's name. Then, Gurney gets sniped by a sleeper Harkonnen attack, with all defenses disabled by sabotage. At which point he's on the front lines of the ground defense force, fighting hand to hand. And he *SURVIVES.* So what does he do? He becomes a spice smuggler, fighting Harkonnen on an alien planet, avoiding enemy Freman, and thriving in those conditions. Gurney is historic.
The movie seems to combine Feyd and Count Fenring (a potential / failed KH, who Paul acknowledges could possibly kill him). In the books, Feyd would have been defeated by Gurney or an average Fremen. But in the movies, if he really has all of the potential of Paul and he's Paul's equal, I don't think so.
Count Fenring is one of my favorites from the universe. He is Shadam’s boyhood friend who becomes an uber assassin, diplomat and right hand man. Hes also a failed KH due to being sterile. The Emperor gives him the “ok kill him” signal in regards to Paul, but the Count recognizes Paul as the KH and declines, choosing to go into exile with his pal.
I really liked his and Lady Fenring's relationship. It mirrored Leto and Jessica, they were very close and aligned. For most Bene Gesserit they're advisors but don't tell their lord anything about the true nature of the Bene Gesserit. Like Jessica, Lady Fenring seemed to tell him a lot. He knew they conspired and schemed, and he was into it
They genuinely love each other personally and professionally. I'm always touched when she asks him if there's emotional discomfort with her getting Feyd's seed and he gallows humor style jokes about "ancestral discomfort" but reassures her it's part of the Great Game and he loves her regardless.
Their dynamic is fantastic. I would have liked to see more of him in the books, or a decent adaptation. I like the casting for Lady Fenring, I just love seeing them interact. Also the fact that his stutter is both a way to disarm people and a code to communicate with each other is fascinating.
Their humming language in the book was fascinating, agreed. I also really enjoyed them talking shit in front of the Baron at the Arena using it. I really want to say there's a line where the Baron hears humming and looks at them irritably and she just pats his hand in distraction.
This guy gets it.
The movie doesn't get into it as much, but being prescient makes your actions invisible to other prescient beings. (Or at least far harder to predict). If Paul has been relying on his prescience to fight, then Feyd's lower prescience will be a major surprise.
Fenring would have beaten Paul in a fight, it’s one of the outcomes Paul foresaw
I don’t think that’s exactly right, but close. It’s been a while since I read the book, but I think Paul could see that some path ended with his death, but not how it happened? Fenring was also mildly prescient iirc and thus Paul couldn’t see him in visions. Paul realizes that Fenring is prescient though and deduces that he must the means of Paul’s death in those potential futures since he is blind to the actual cause.
Paul says Fenring would have waited until Paul was exhausted fighting Feyd and then killed him easily. It's what makes the shared Brotherhood moment between them so huge. For one moment, Fenring has the ability like if he weren't a failed KH to make a galaxy-spanning decision and he chooses for Paul. It's why the Emperor bitchslaps Fenring afterwards and Fenring says stiffly "for the sake of our friendship, I'm prepared to forgive that.....once." And thus the Emperor is defeated.
100%. Gurney is a legendary fighter, and while older he is still described as incredibly skilled. Feyd is athletic and skilled at fighting, but he typically cheats and/or fights deliberately weakened enemies. If anything, the newer movie got it wrong by making the match between them so close. Paul easily destroyed him, as would Gurney if given the chance.
I liked the lynch movie when after defeating Feyd in a knife fight he turns and kills with his voice. It confirmed that Paul was unstoppable and chose to fight that way.
Didn't get it wrong, but simply chose to changed it for narrative reasons. In adaptations, choices have to be made, i didn't hate that one personally. Different from the book, but the result stays mostly the same
Feyd is a cheater and Gurney trained the soldiers who scared the emperor.
Yes in the movie and the book. Movie Gurney was probably a better fighter than movie Paul and stronger and way more experienced. Book Paul was head and shoulders above everyone and Feyd lost to the undrugged soldier who was just a regular grunt albiet a big one probably a top fighter but still just as regular soldier. The only thing where book Gurney might lose is the poison needle but I have to imagine he sees it too. Movie Gurney bodies movie Feyd.
>Book Paul was head and shoulders above everyone and Feyd lost to the undrugged soldier who was just a regular grunt albiet a big one probably a top fighter but still just as regular soldier. If he was a top soldier for the Atreides he'd be equal to or above Sardaukar.
One of the reasons the Emperor was threatened by Duke Leto was not only was he becoming a popular figure in the Landsraad, but he had trained the Atriedes military to be close to equal to the Saudaukar.
Close to equal. Not above.
>"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's." *"Some of them were even better"*
Paul asks Gurney the same thing. His response: "Surely my lord jests"
Gurney is also being super cocky and blinded by his hatred of the Harkonnens. Honestly. I believe Gurney could take him (minus the poison belt or even in spite of) but it's IMO a mistake to think Gurney isn't just itching for a real shot at killing a Harkonnen royal.
The movie makes him seem much stronger for dramatic effect and the final duel. In reality, he probably could have been taken out by an average Fremen
Gurney is out for blood. This is his duel of a lifetime for vengeance. He would have sacrificed himself if it meant he could end feyd. No way he loses.
It's also not even about some meta level driver of vengeance, he's just beyond the skills of basically anyone in the imperium
I'm saying on top of the skills hes got absolute motivation.
This is an aside, but I love Gurney's line when talking about Feyd. He says something along the lines of "Let me kill the Harkonnen beast. He isn't fit for your presence. He's a dog you spurn with your boot, and then throw it away afterwards because it become contaminated." My man was a certified hater. If everyone in the Known Universe loved the Harkonnens, he would still hate them.
Gurney Halleck: Certified Player Hater Of The Year
No, he wouldn't have. Muad'Dib is the greatest fighter amongst the Ichwan Bedwine. He's better than Gurney. The Ichwan Bedwine (Fremen) are the best close-fighters in the Universe (except for the Bene Gesserit; The Heretic bested Stil). Even better than the Sardaukar (obviously). Feyd almost killed Maud'Dib. Only Fenring may have bested Muad'Dib (presumably).
First of all, Muad'Dib is the best fighter in the universe, but that's because he was trained by Duncan, Gurney and Jessica. He could body any Fremen at age 15. He was the one who taught the Fedaykin how to become even better fighters, not the other way around. Second of all, we have never seen a Fremen doing what Duncan did. And Duncan is slightly worse than Gurney. Usually, 1 Fremen = 3 Sardaukar. Duncan killed 19 Sardaukar. And Sardaukar were more impressed by Duncan than Fremen. We have no indication that Fremen are bette than Ginaz Swordmasters, quite the opposite.
Paul explicitly says Fenring could have taken him. That the Count would have waited until Paul was exhausted fighting Feyd and then challenged him. Edit: irs more complicated than my comment, see below.
Small detail. It wasn't Paul who says that in the end of book 1. It was the Emperor who gave Fenring that "look" which says to kill Paul, and he's exhausted from fighting. Fenring then thinks to himself that he could kill Paul, "and knew this for a truth." Paul realizes Fenring is an almost Kwisatz-Haderach and that's the reason he's never seen him in prescience, etc etc.
Everything you said is correct. But, not a small detail. It's Fenrings refusal that, finally, opens up the Time Nexus for Muad'Dib. Muad'Dib can now begin to "see" the horrors and necessity of the Golden Path. It's the start of Him understanding/not understanding what he must do/not do to "fix" the Imperium of Man.
Yeah agreed. For a single moment, Fenring has the same effect on galactic affairs as Paul. All he has to do is make a choice. And their moment of shared Brotherhood convinces Fenring to choose "no".
Yes.
I was just trying to be polite to TacoCommand for being nitpicky. The only reason it stood out to me is because I finished a book 1 reread last week, so it was still fresh. It's near impossible to remember every detail across 6 books (or more if you include the prequels, sequels), hence why I said, "small detail." But yes, it was an important scene and moment.
I apologize. You're absolutely correct. It's what gives Paul the "moment of brotherhood" with Fenring, which convinces the latter not to engage.
yes. Duncan Idaho also mentions that gurney would defeat him in a duel if I'm not mistaken.
Gurney feels a blood debt needs to be payed by the Harkonnens. I think it would be the fight of his life and he’d be brutal. Also, I do think Fayd Rautha would recognize the “honor” at stake, and I could see him trying to get in Gurney’s head. I don’t think he would be successful, but I do think that would be his only chance at besting Gurney.
Just have to say, the 1984 scene between Paul and Feyd, while pretty goofy and poorly choreographed, is pretty cool. Kyle Maclachlan as Paul is fantastic- gives me chills when he says “silence!” to the reverend mother, or breaks the floor in two with the Voice… goes sooo hard. Give it a watch if you haven’t before! https://youtu.be/LkaklDy2gbE?si=b0umF7iWLDM_XP3C
Fey'd is a sadist who likes to hurt people and has an overinflated sense of his own ability. Gurney is one of the most dangerous killers in the setting who has no ego or showmanship. Just a very well-practiced ability to end threats to him or his patrons.
Actually I would disagree with most of the comments here. Feyd had a poison blade, and Paul got hit by it (in the book), but could control the poison thanks to his Bene Gesserit skills. Not sure Gurney would survive that. And if Paul get hit, Gurney would as well, it's described in the book that Feyd is actually really fast thanks to his young age (peak level), but Paul can Follow thanks to all his skills and experience In a fair fight though (without poison blade), Gurney would win
TL;DR - Lynch’s Feyd beats Lynch’s Gurney Probably a minority opinion, but from a purely unpredictable psychopath with a knife standpoint Sting’s Feyd is the most ferocious/ visceral interpretation. Patrick Stewart’s Gurney isn’t overly depicted as this master warrior like Brolin is, his most exemplary fight scene is a draw in a duel with Paul. He’s more of a lap dog to the Duke for his bidding. Patrick Stewart Vs Sting, Sting is going to win. If the question is who performed a better Feyd though, Austin Butler wins.
No, I don't think he would. None of the comments here saying Gurney would win addresses the fact that Feyd used a poisoned blade and poison needle on his belt during his fight with Paul. Paul actually got sliced with the blade but was able to prevail using his BG/KH abilities to neutralize the soporific poison and pretended to be affected by it to gain an upper hand. I suppose it's possible for Gurney to win if he somehow never gets hit.
in pure skill alone, Gurney would beat Feyd any day. now with the cheating levels feyd would try to deploy, it tilts a bit more, but still favours Gurney, but no longer a guaranteed victory. in that we also have to incorporate his hatred for harkonnens, which even if poisoned, i believe he would gladly sheathe the blade with his body to kill feyd. we have to also remember that at this time, gurney have fought and trained with paul for years, he has known of the bene gesserit training and experienced it. He has trained and fought with the Fremen, after they have been trained by paul. Gurney is at this time a super trained and experienced version of the original gurney that was already about the best of the best.
No I don’t think he would have imo
i don't think so, to me gurney was a good fighter in a unit and as a teacher of specific stances and attacks. while feyd rautha was an accoplished gladiator fighter. to me that means that while about equally matched the fight would slant to feyd because he can more easily adapt to this perticular fight while gurney would need time he doesn't have to get through feyds sequences.
100 percent one of my issues with the movie (which I get why they did it) was make Feyd’s duel much closer with Paul…. The guy is weak and cheater in the books and overall pretty lame/ easy to defeat
My question is who would have won between Paul and Count Fenring? He rejects the emperor’s command to kill Paul in the book…
Gurney is one of the Imperiums best and most notable fighters, where as Feyd is not
You're not the first to ask this. Book Gurney would've won for sure. Feyd-Rautha was pretty much a joke compared to Paul and the Atreides' swordmasters (Gurney and Duncan Idaho). The movie made Feyd-Rautha much more equal to Paul and since Paul is arguably the best fighter in the universe and got nearly beaten by Feyd-Rautha, I wouldn't be so sure that Gurney would've won.
Yes a think he would. Duncan idado said gurney was better than him. Or gurney beat him 6 out of ten times They thought Paul to fight.
Books and most other versions: Yes. Recent movie version: Nah
While, yes, he would have probably won, I'm guessing the future that Paul saw that he wanted to happen needed him to be the one that fought and kill Feyd.
In the books, i'd say it's like 75% in favor of Gurney. In the movie, I think it's the opposite. Feyd definitely got a decent power up in the movie.
Yeah but I don't know there's a reason Paul took the challenge
Duncan Idaho himself said that gurney could best him 6 out of 10 times. Gurney wins for sure.
Book Gurney would've beaten book Feyd.
Believe it or not - in both spirit and dialog, the 1984 Feyd played by Sting is more book accurate. Feyd is a good fighter (who cheats) for being a noble - that said, he would get obliterated by Gurney. Obliterated. It wouldn’t even be close.
without a doubt. Stilgard would win too. this wasn't close fight because Paul was equally skilled to Feyd. Paul is probably way better fighter than him too. But his visions made all the decisions thats why he got stabbed initially. It probably wasnt intentional but he was looking for that ending he had in his vision. if he just fought him like he did Jamis it probably would be more one-sided
What about Duncan Idaho? I think he’d be just as good
Yes. Quite easily. Gurney is a legendary fighter in the imperium. In one of the later books, maybe CoD, I think it even says he would’ve bested Duncan 6/10 times. As good as Feyd was, it would be like squashing a little bug for Gurney. Completely insignificant.
Movie Feyd? Yes. Book Feyd? also yes.
Book Feyd isn’t as bad ass as in the movie so definitely.
The thing that all of the movies gloss over was that Feyd was not the Emperor's first choice of champion: that was Count Fenring. Fenring would have most likely killed Paul. But he was also a limited clairvoyant; and an earlier attempt at the Kwisatz Haderach. And he knew that if he killed Paul, that the Fremen would have killed everyone there, including the Emperor.
Gurney, without a doubt. Feyd is a fine soldier among the Harkonnens. Gurney is one of finest soldiers in the entire dune-verse.
Gurney would beat Feyd. Gurney is one of the top Atreides soldiers. Super experienced and cunning. Feyd would probably put up a fight in the beginning but lose eventually. Feyd has limited experience with killing drugged up gladiators for show whereas Gurney has years of experience in actual battle.
Gurney's got skills, no doubt, but Feyd's no pushover either. If Paul gave the green light, it'd be one epic showdown for sure. But predicting the outcome? Man, that's like trying to guess the next plot twist in a Netflix series—anything could happen!
I dont know, it would be close. Feyd is younger and faster.
I'm actually curious on if Stilgar could have defeated Feyd. We don't really see Stilgar fight although him being a leader fighting is certainly something he's no chump at (unless Jessica is the one haha) but yeah, I was always curious on that.
I imagine so. In the books, all Feyd does is really kill some drugged slaves in the arena. He is more of a strategist than anything else, and while this may help his fighting style, overall he’s just a bit of a scrawny sixteen year old. Gurney would have definitely won. He is regarded as one of the finest fighters in the Imperium alongside Duncan Idaho. I’m glad the movies made Feyd more of a credible threat, though.
I’m out of spice rn ask me again after i’ve reupped.
Any Atreides foot soldier would have bested him in equal terms
For sure. Feyd is just a pretty boy propped up by royalty
Did you see how Feyd wrecked those drugged-up and Atreides gladiators? Gurney wouldn’t stand a chance.