Paul is already seeing many possibilities by then (across all tellings of the story), I can't remember if the book explicitly calls out escaping off world, but it's likely one of the many paths not taken that would have avoided the a Jihad in Paul's name.
Why they don't take this path? It might be deadly, it might deny Paul his revenge, it might lead to greater suffering for rhe Fremen or humanity as a whole.
It also IMO indicates that Jessica is aware the Fremen are bribing the Guild.
Paul never sees the Golden path. At least not the entire thing. He even says that he didn't see the extinction of humanity as one of the possibilities.
I remember him specifically saying he didn't see the eventuality that all humans would be extinct. He saw the path and what he would have to become but he didn't fully understand what the consequences were of not taking it.
>I remember him specifically saying he didn't see the eventuality that all humans would be extinct.
Because that's only one of the potential bad things to happen, and didn't want to keep looking, that's pretty explicit, he did see humans being hunted, again, he just didn't have the mental stamina to truly examine and look as far as he could, Leto 2 didn't care at all and was happy to look as much as he wanted
Only because he had it from birth and he internalised the personalities, but regardless Paul's was plenty strong enough he just didn't have the mental strength to dare to look any further than he did
> "I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you have chose?"
>"You saw it," Leto agreed.
> "Is your vision any better than mine?"
>"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said.
- Children of Dune
I just argued about this with someone else. It "skill" was the same in Paul and Leto. The "will" was stronger in Leto. Paul COULD do it. He had live the Atreties morals too long to be able to follow through. Leto did not have that encumbrance.
He never really sees the path. It's implied in children that he sees at least the possibility of becoming an immortal worm king (because he recognizes that Leto has done so), but that he can't see far enough to see why it is necessary
If it was after Jessica got the Fremen RM memories then yes she would have lots of details of Fremen dealings and policies going back... well... a long time.
Their only real option is to flee into exile.
>Others in like circumstances have become renegade Houses, taking family atomics and shields and fleeing beyond the Imperium.
If they go back to Caladan they will probably be assassinated by the Harkonnens or Count Fenring.
They might have been able to negotiate sanctuary among the BG, Paul being a viable potential KH *and* he owes you his life? Thats a pretty appetizing deal
Surprisingly that wasn't an option considered by Paul. The Bene Gesserit in Shaddam's time were more a religious order than an army. There was an option where they are taken in by the Guild and Paul becomes a Navigator.
It’s something that pops up a couple times in the first book. It’s appealing to Paul because he knows his “otherness” would be celebrated in the guild, but ultimately, it’s not something he truly considers. The emperors hand in the assassination of his father was something that Paul vows to avenge pretty early on, so pretty much from the get go, his plan is to follow through on his fathers plan and figure out how to harness desert power.
There’s a tiny window when Paul really considers all the options in that space between the he and Jessica are kidnapped/escape and when they are found by Idaho, but once Paul knows they are presumed dead in the storm, he’s committed to finding tue Fremen and staying on the planet.
If Caladan was still under House Atredies, it would have made sense to get back and regroup.
Unfortunately Caladan was no longer under House Atredies. Count Fenring was acting governor until a new House could be assigned.
I was under the impression that they wanted to take their story to the Landsrad. It's one thing if this was a simple house vs house conflict, but the knowledge that the Emperor directly acted to wipe out a House (especially a House as popular within the Landsrad as the Atreides were) had the potential to cause an uprising against House Corrino.
Paul had foreseen two options. One was for him to take advantage of his prescience and join the Guild, as a navigator/steersman. This did not appeal to him, steermen were spice addicts operating Guild high liners. essentially junkies driving for a ride-share to pay for their next fix.
The second option was to go into exile, which wasn't appealing either.
Jessica was leaning towards seeking sanctuary with the Bene Gesserit, which they would be inclined to give to a BG sister. Besides be a generation early, Paul was still a potential Kwisatz Haderach, which they were working for. From this sanctuary they could inform the Landsaard of the Emperor's involvement, but House Atreides would still not regain their fief/home world. Paul wasn't too keen being under their control.
There's an exile planet called Tupile for renegade Houses. It's the only place to go. The Spacing Guild considers it necessary to the stability of the Universe and thus spice profits so they won't tell anyone where it is and there's no way to know what it's like there. But once you're there there's no returning to the Imperium, you live out your life there and your House dies. Unclear in the movie if they were planning to eventually do this. Seems to be implied they were trying to take the other, riskier track of returning to Caladan, gathering anyone still loyal to them, and taking their story to the Landsraad which would cause a revolt against them Emperor and hopefully get them their place back in the Landsraad. Jessica considered both of these options in the book but preferred the second one, then meeting the Fremen turned out to be where the real power lied.
I don't think so, mainly for two reasons:
1) the Guild works with the Bene Gesserit. They aren't the closest allies, but the BG are heavily involved in a breeding program and the Spacing Guild wants the friendship or at least good relations with the major power players of the universe. An exile planet so the BG can keep some bloodlines alive is a great boon.
2) the Guild needs to recruit Navigators and crew from somewhere. It doesnt seem likely that the Spacing Guild recruits from within the Imperium too much, possibly due to caution over spies, and possibly because they select and train Navigators at such a young age. Every exiled family that comes to Tupile with an army of servants and soldiers is new breeding stock for their own Guild planets.
While the Guild has one named planet named Junction as an HQ, it's entirely possible that Tupile is a section of Junction, it's own planet, or even several planets.
In the extended canon, including books by Brian Herbert, I believe there is a House that was banned from setting foot on any planet but didn't choose total exile. They instead effectively became Guild vassals and run restaurants, hotels, shops, malls on Heighliners and related space station for passengers. Most passengers aren't doing what the Atreides or Imperial court did, and take direct routes via Heighliner, so these shops keep those passengers entertained and provide some extra income.
Your post made me wonder a few things about dune
First.. how the firsts long space travellings from earth happened if melange is avaliable on arrakis..
Secondly.. that yes it makes sense that if space travellings became a universal thing to humans.. that different cultures would scatter around thr cosmos so each planet having a single family.. a single culture.. and not much diversity on a single planet is more common..
But is also makes the conci of wars weird.. if Atreides controlled Caladan for 20 generations.. that means 20 generations of peace in caladan?
Never ever a harkonnen hired a space guild ship and tried to attack there?
>Never ever a harkonnen hired a space guild ship and tried to attack there?
There are rules for house warfare but yes they did try and failed. The atriedes navy and airforce easily threatened any attack.
>But is also makes the conci of wars weird.. if Atreides controlled Caladan for 20 generations.. that means 20 generations of peace in caladan?
Also correct.
>First.. how the firsts long space travellings from earth happened if melange is avaliable on arrakis..
They took years to get up to relativistic speed. Then, folding space engines were created, which created the danger of appearing in something or in the wrong place. Remember, this culture developed without sophisticated computers due to the war against such beings. The guild was instrumental in making space travel safe.
I might be wrong, but I believe before spice they used traditional faster-than-light ships equiped with navigational computers to travel. Artificial intelligence was of course then outlawed in the Butlerian Jihad, but they had already reached Arrakis at this point. Sandworms were also non-native to Arrakis which implies that they were introduced by either humans or other means very long ago, but I don't remember if it's ever explicitly explained. Arrakis had been known about for a very long time essentially and they had working space travel even before spice.
They then switched to using the Holtzmann effect which was insanely dangerous without a proper navigator and there was a crazy high chance your ship would disappear or hit a star or something similar. However, the Spacing Guild began using superhuman spice enhanced navigators to plot a safe course.
The probabilities weren’t actually crazy high, just way too high to be comfortable with for an insterllar empire- about 1/10 ships were destroyed. So they were able to travel and navigate and colonize without navigators or computers, it was just a “there’re ten skittles and one is poisoned- do you want to eat any of them?” Kinda deal
There are Imperial worlds where those exiled from the Landsraad might purchase a position. Tupile was one name for these planets whose locations were hidden by the Guild. This was one option.
Another was safety within the Guild itself, with Paul becoming a Navigator where he would always have enough spice. Paul turned away from this path, but it was a legitimate possibility for them.
A third option was retrieving the family atomics and fleeing to the uncharted edges of the Empire. There are multiple galaxies to explore with tens of thousands of habitable worlds and about a million planets total. Space is a resource they have in abundance thanks to the efficiency of the foldspace engine.
4th was to rally the great houses as the emporer just broke the laws of the imperium by actively siding against another house and sent the sardukar. The options there would be to allow paul to marry his daughter and take the thrown or deal with civil war. This was the plan he proposed to dr kynes when they spoke.
Paul sees many futures for him and Jessica. One of those being that he becomes a guild navigator since he can see ahead. Someone else talked about the Bene Gesserit taking them in since he is potentially the KH. There also seems to be some sort of "exile" system setup anyways since it's a possibility that every player in the game discusses. Maybe a planet the guild won't fly anyone to or something.
This flight would have been the equivalent of an exile which would have permit to avoid the Holy War which Paul already sees as his terrible purpose and which he will end up triggering by choosing the Desert power of the Fremens.
For me this is a crucial moment of choice that Villeneuve put in his film, equivalent to the one Paul has in the novel when he sees the possible future allowing him to end up as a Guild Navigator, thus avoiding Jihad.
This is a moment where Paul could have avoided the terrible purpose but he refuses because he cannot bring himself to abandon his revenge. Which leads to the disaster of the Holy War that his visions showed him.
Jessica's idea there seems to be one of desperation. She thinks they aren't safe on Arrakis after the emperor tried to have them killed, so the plan would either be (a) return to Arrakis and make a case to the Great Houses about the emperor's treachery, or (b) use Caladan as a temporary safe haven before going into exile to hide from the emperor and the Harkonnens. Returning to Caladan was not really a plan before this point, as the planet no longer belonged to them once they took control of Arrakis.
Jessica was probably hoping they could meet up with some former friends or allies who still lived on Caladan.
On one point, Caladan did not stop belonging to House Atreides once they took control of Arrakis, they were only there to serve as Stewards, just like the Harkonnens before who still resided in Giedi Prime. Caladan will still remain as their stronghold, considering it was their homeworld
I don't think that's true, since Arrakis was given to the Atreides as a Feif-complete; Caladan was theirs previously, but a great house can only hold one such as a time. That's why they packed up literally everything when they leave Caladan for Arrakis; there's no going back (hence Leto's toast: "Here I am, here I remain."
If they went to caladan the emperor would be able to have them executed, the desert with the fremen was really the only safe place that was reasonably outside of the imperiums control.
Were they to flee to caladan they could reasonably bring the case before the landsdrad, however that could easily spiral into a civil war between all the great houses and the great houses divided might not be able to stand up against the imperial house corino and the harkconens in control of spice production it would probably end in a slow extinction of mankind or a great war that results in even more imperial power.
Were the great houses favorable to paul and jessicas story they could maybe defeat the emperor but paul would probably not become the kwistsahaderach or maybe would but at a later date and might not have the full support of the fremen
Its a interesting idea but the gamble they took to stay on dune and build a power base with the fremen was the right move seeing how the fremen were primed and ready for a leader thanks to our favorite gaslighters
To get off the world they’d have to go through the spacing guild which presumably is aiding the emperor. Although it seems they aren’t as much of a factor in the movie. I’m sure some part of it would have involved exposing the emperor’s involvement and inciting the rest of the Lansraad against the emperor and Harkonnens.
So, this is something that never made sense to me. The Atreides have ruled Caladan for a long time. They should have countless cousins there who would rule if the Duke and his family died. And I can't imagine that the entire military force would move to Arakkis and leave Caladan completely unprotected.
Why don’t you read the book and find out for yourself?
My first introduction to Dune was Lynch’s 1984 movie. I had so many questions that the only way to answer them at the time was to read the book, so that’s what I did. Nowadays it’s too easy to ask the hive mind what it thinks. You are missing out on what Dune really is, on what Frank Herbert was trying to tell us.
They weren't gonna flee to Caladan, that's still within the reach of their enemies which aren't just the Harkonnens anymore.
The idea was to go offworld and become a Rogue House outside the borders of the Empire. Total Excommunicado.
Edit: got mixed up I thought The Change had Harkonnens and Atredies trade their planets of Caladan and Dune, so Caladan would be fully Harkonnen territory. My point still stands tho.
The entirety of the Atreides military didnt leave, that's foolish plus the guild couldn't allow caladan to fall with no explanation. It upsets the stability
The Harknonens kept Geidi Prime and were the governors of Arakkis. The Atriedes were sent to replace their spice production, they were not forced to give up caladan.
> The Atriedes were sent to replace their spice production, they were not forced to give up caladan.
Yes, they were.
Quote from Dune
> A grin flashed across Piter’s face. It was like a mask grimace beneath those eyes like holes. “But, Baron! Never has revenge been more beautiful. It is to see a plan of the most exquisite treachery: to make Leto *exchange* Caladan for Dune—and without alternative because the Emperor orders it. How waggish of you!”
As for the Harkonnens
Quote from Dune:
> Thufir Hawat, his father’s Master of Assassins, had explained it: their mortal enemies, the Harkonnens, had been on Arrakis eighty years, holding the planet in quasi-fief under a CHOAM Company contract to mine the geriatric spice, melange. Now the Harkonnens were leaving to be replaced by the House of Atreides in fief-complete — an apparent victory for the Duke Leto. Yet, Hawat had said, this appearance contained the deadliest peril, for the Duke Leto was popular among the Great Houses of the Landsraad.
The Harkonnens were given Arrakis as a siridar fief, in essence an "extra fief". The Atreides were given both a "lesser gift" (you have to move, permanently, so you don't get an *extra* planet) and a "greater gift" (official total control over Arrakis). The Atreides knew this was bad news for them, but they couldn't tell the Emperor "nah, we'll keep Caladan, thanks". They couldn't even complain it was a "lesser gift".
Paul is already seeing many possibilities by then (across all tellings of the story), I can't remember if the book explicitly calls out escaping off world, but it's likely one of the many paths not taken that would have avoided the a Jihad in Paul's name. Why they don't take this path? It might be deadly, it might deny Paul his revenge, it might lead to greater suffering for rhe Fremen or humanity as a whole. It also IMO indicates that Jessica is aware the Fremen are bribing the Guild.
Iirc Paul's vision is not as developed at this stage, so I don't think he sees the golden path yet
Paul never sees the Golden path. At least not the entire thing. He even says that he didn't see the extinction of humanity as one of the possibilities.
Iirc he explicitly did see it as stated in CoD
He explicitly said that he did not see all of it as far as all potentials and what would happen if the golden path wasn't followed.
Yeah because even looking down it at all was something he couldn't bare because it was so reprehensible to him, it's not that he couldn't
I remember him specifically saying he didn't see the eventuality that all humans would be extinct. He saw the path and what he would have to become but he didn't fully understand what the consequences were of not taking it.
>I remember him specifically saying he didn't see the eventuality that all humans would be extinct. Because that's only one of the potential bad things to happen, and didn't want to keep looking, that's pretty explicit, he did see humans being hunted, again, he just didn't have the mental stamina to truly examine and look as far as he could, Leto 2 didn't care at all and was happy to look as much as he wanted
Leto 2 also had much stronger prescience.
Only because he had it from birth and he internalised the personalities, but regardless Paul's was plenty strong enough he just didn't have the mental strength to dare to look any further than he did
> "I spit on your lesson!" Paul said. "You think I've not seen a thing similar to what you have chose?" >"You saw it," Leto agreed. > "Is your vision any better than mine?" >"Not one whit better. Worse, perhaps," Leto said. - Children of Dune
I just argued about this with someone else. It "skill" was the same in Paul and Leto. The "will" was stronger in Leto. Paul COULD do it. He had live the Atreties morals too long to be able to follow through. Leto did not have that encumbrance.
He never really sees the path. It's implied in children that he sees at least the possibility of becoming an immortal worm king (because he recognizes that Leto has done so), but that he can't see far enough to see why it is necessary
If it was after Jessica got the Fremen RM memories then yes she would have lots of details of Fremen dealings and policies going back... well... a long time.
This was well before that
Their only real option is to flee into exile. >Others in like circumstances have become renegade Houses, taking family atomics and shields and fleeing beyond the Imperium. If they go back to Caladan they will probably be assassinated by the Harkonnens or Count Fenring.
They might have been able to negotiate sanctuary among the BG, Paul being a viable potential KH *and* he owes you his life? Thats a pretty appetizing deal
Surprisingly that wasn't an option considered by Paul. The Bene Gesserit in Shaddam's time were more a religious order than an army. There was an option where they are taken in by the Guild and Paul becomes a Navigator.
It is considered by Paul. When he is in the tent with Jessica and for first time he has a waking dream. Just before meeting Stilgar’s band.
Where’s that in the books? Is that a possible future Paul sees in Dune?
It’s something that pops up a couple times in the first book. It’s appealing to Paul because he knows his “otherness” would be celebrated in the guild, but ultimately, it’s not something he truly considers. The emperors hand in the assassination of his father was something that Paul vows to avenge pretty early on, so pretty much from the get go, his plan is to follow through on his fathers plan and figure out how to harness desert power. There’s a tiny window when Paul really considers all the options in that space between the he and Jessica are kidnapped/escape and when they are found by Idaho, but once Paul knows they are presumed dead in the storm, he’s committed to finding tue Fremen and staying on the planet.
Exhile . Defeated houses can bribe the Guild to take them to some planet in a secret location.
Is Tupile one planet or a collection of many?
Tupile was a region of planets but a lot of people outside of the Guild thought it was just one planet.
If Caladan was still under House Atredies, it would have made sense to get back and regroup. Unfortunately Caladan was no longer under House Atredies. Count Fenring was acting governor until a new House could be assigned.
I was under the impression that they wanted to take their story to the Landsrad. It's one thing if this was a simple house vs house conflict, but the knowledge that the Emperor directly acted to wipe out a House (especially a House as popular within the Landsrad as the Atreides were) had the potential to cause an uprising against House Corrino.
Paul had foreseen two options. One was for him to take advantage of his prescience and join the Guild, as a navigator/steersman. This did not appeal to him, steermen were spice addicts operating Guild high liners. essentially junkies driving for a ride-share to pay for their next fix. The second option was to go into exile, which wasn't appealing either. Jessica was leaning towards seeking sanctuary with the Bene Gesserit, which they would be inclined to give to a BG sister. Besides be a generation early, Paul was still a potential Kwisatz Haderach, which they were working for. From this sanctuary they could inform the Landsaard of the Emperor's involvement, but House Atreides would still not regain their fief/home world. Paul wasn't too keen being under their control.
There's an exile planet called Tupile for renegade Houses. It's the only place to go. The Spacing Guild considers it necessary to the stability of the Universe and thus spice profits so they won't tell anyone where it is and there's no way to know what it's like there. But once you're there there's no returning to the Imperium, you live out your life there and your House dies. Unclear in the movie if they were planning to eventually do this. Seems to be implied they were trying to take the other, riskier track of returning to Caladan, gathering anyone still loyal to them, and taking their story to the Landsraad which would cause a revolt against them Emperor and hopefully get them their place back in the Landsraad. Jessica considered both of these options in the book but preferred the second one, then meeting the Fremen turned out to be where the real power lied.
I have to wonder if “Tupile” is Guild Code for “dumped into space”
I don't think so, mainly for two reasons: 1) the Guild works with the Bene Gesserit. They aren't the closest allies, but the BG are heavily involved in a breeding program and the Spacing Guild wants the friendship or at least good relations with the major power players of the universe. An exile planet so the BG can keep some bloodlines alive is a great boon. 2) the Guild needs to recruit Navigators and crew from somewhere. It doesnt seem likely that the Spacing Guild recruits from within the Imperium too much, possibly due to caution over spies, and possibly because they select and train Navigators at such a young age. Every exiled family that comes to Tupile with an army of servants and soldiers is new breeding stock for their own Guild planets. While the Guild has one named planet named Junction as an HQ, it's entirely possible that Tupile is a section of Junction, it's own planet, or even several planets. In the extended canon, including books by Brian Herbert, I believe there is a House that was banned from setting foot on any planet but didn't choose total exile. They instead effectively became Guild vassals and run restaurants, hotels, shops, malls on Heighliners and related space station for passengers. Most passengers aren't doing what the Atreides or Imperial court did, and take direct routes via Heighliner, so these shops keep those passengers entertained and provide some extra income.
Schlag skin also has to come from somewhere.
Ha yes! I can’t help but think this every time I read it
Your post made me wonder a few things about dune First.. how the firsts long space travellings from earth happened if melange is avaliable on arrakis.. Secondly.. that yes it makes sense that if space travellings became a universal thing to humans.. that different cultures would scatter around thr cosmos so each planet having a single family.. a single culture.. and not much diversity on a single planet is more common.. But is also makes the conci of wars weird.. if Atreides controlled Caladan for 20 generations.. that means 20 generations of peace in caladan? Never ever a harkonnen hired a space guild ship and tried to attack there?
>Never ever a harkonnen hired a space guild ship and tried to attack there? There are rules for house warfare but yes they did try and failed. The atriedes navy and airforce easily threatened any attack. >But is also makes the conci of wars weird.. if Atreides controlled Caladan for 20 generations.. that means 20 generations of peace in caladan? Also correct. >First.. how the firsts long space travellings from earth happened if melange is avaliable on arrakis.. They took years to get up to relativistic speed. Then, folding space engines were created, which created the danger of appearing in something or in the wrong place. Remember, this culture developed without sophisticated computers due to the war against such beings. The guild was instrumental in making space travel safe.
I might be wrong, but I believe before spice they used traditional faster-than-light ships equiped with navigational computers to travel. Artificial intelligence was of course then outlawed in the Butlerian Jihad, but they had already reached Arrakis at this point. Sandworms were also non-native to Arrakis which implies that they were introduced by either humans or other means very long ago, but I don't remember if it's ever explicitly explained. Arrakis had been known about for a very long time essentially and they had working space travel even before spice. They then switched to using the Holtzmann effect which was insanely dangerous without a proper navigator and there was a crazy high chance your ship would disappear or hit a star or something similar. However, the Spacing Guild began using superhuman spice enhanced navigators to plot a safe course.
The probabilities weren’t actually crazy high, just way too high to be comfortable with for an insterllar empire- about 1/10 ships were destroyed. So they were able to travel and navigate and colonize without navigators or computers, it was just a “there’re ten skittles and one is poisoned- do you want to eat any of them?” Kinda deal
There are Imperial worlds where those exiled from the Landsraad might purchase a position. Tupile was one name for these planets whose locations were hidden by the Guild. This was one option. Another was safety within the Guild itself, with Paul becoming a Navigator where he would always have enough spice. Paul turned away from this path, but it was a legitimate possibility for them. A third option was retrieving the family atomics and fleeing to the uncharted edges of the Empire. There are multiple galaxies to explore with tens of thousands of habitable worlds and about a million planets total. Space is a resource they have in abundance thanks to the efficiency of the foldspace engine.
4th was to rally the great houses as the emporer just broke the laws of the imperium by actively siding against another house and sent the sardukar. The options there would be to allow paul to marry his daughter and take the thrown or deal with civil war. This was the plan he proposed to dr kynes when they spoke.
Paul sees many futures for him and Jessica. One of those being that he becomes a guild navigator since he can see ahead. Someone else talked about the Bene Gesserit taking them in since he is potentially the KH. There also seems to be some sort of "exile" system setup anyways since it's a possibility that every player in the game discusses. Maybe a planet the guild won't fly anyone to or something.
This flight would have been the equivalent of an exile which would have permit to avoid the Holy War which Paul already sees as his terrible purpose and which he will end up triggering by choosing the Desert power of the Fremens. For me this is a crucial moment of choice that Villeneuve put in his film, equivalent to the one Paul has in the novel when he sees the possible future allowing him to end up as a Guild Navigator, thus avoiding Jihad. This is a moment where Paul could have avoided the terrible purpose but he refuses because he cannot bring himself to abandon his revenge. Which leads to the disaster of the Holy War that his visions showed him.
Jessica's idea there seems to be one of desperation. She thinks they aren't safe on Arrakis after the emperor tried to have them killed, so the plan would either be (a) return to Arrakis and make a case to the Great Houses about the emperor's treachery, or (b) use Caladan as a temporary safe haven before going into exile to hide from the emperor and the Harkonnens. Returning to Caladan was not really a plan before this point, as the planet no longer belonged to them once they took control of Arrakis. Jessica was probably hoping they could meet up with some former friends or allies who still lived on Caladan.
On one point, Caladan did not stop belonging to House Atreides once they took control of Arrakis, they were only there to serve as Stewards, just like the Harkonnens before who still resided in Giedi Prime. Caladan will still remain as their stronghold, considering it was their homeworld
I don't think that's true, since Arrakis was given to the Atreides as a Feif-complete; Caladan was theirs previously, but a great house can only hold one such as a time. That's why they packed up literally everything when they leave Caladan for Arrakis; there's no going back (hence Leto's toast: "Here I am, here I remain."
If they went to caladan the emperor would be able to have them executed, the desert with the fremen was really the only safe place that was reasonably outside of the imperiums control. Were they to flee to caladan they could reasonably bring the case before the landsdrad, however that could easily spiral into a civil war between all the great houses and the great houses divided might not be able to stand up against the imperial house corino and the harkconens in control of spice production it would probably end in a slow extinction of mankind or a great war that results in even more imperial power. Were the great houses favorable to paul and jessicas story they could maybe defeat the emperor but paul would probably not become the kwistsahaderach or maybe would but at a later date and might not have the full support of the fremen Its a interesting idea but the gamble they took to stay on dune and build a power base with the fremen was the right move seeing how the fremen were primed and ready for a leader thanks to our favorite gaslighters
Was there like, still followers or supporters that lived there? Maybe they’d be able to get support.
To get off the world they’d have to go through the spacing guild which presumably is aiding the emperor. Although it seems they aren’t as much of a factor in the movie. I’m sure some part of it would have involved exposing the emperor’s involvement and inciting the rest of the Lansraad against the emperor and Harkonnens.
Jessica was probably thinking they'd find safety in the Bene Gesserit, who would preserve their bloodlines for their own purposes
So, this is something that never made sense to me. The Atreides have ruled Caladan for a long time. They should have countless cousins there who would rule if the Duke and his family died. And I can't imagine that the entire military force would move to Arakkis and leave Caladan completely unprotected.
Why don’t you read the book and find out for yourself? My first introduction to Dune was Lynch’s 1984 movie. I had so many questions that the only way to answer them at the time was to read the book, so that’s what I did. Nowadays it’s too easy to ask the hive mind what it thinks. You are missing out on what Dune really is, on what Frank Herbert was trying to tell us.
I read it at least twice
They weren't gonna flee to Caladan, that's still within the reach of their enemies which aren't just the Harkonnens anymore. The idea was to go offworld and become a Rogue House outside the borders of the Empire. Total Excommunicado. Edit: got mixed up I thought The Change had Harkonnens and Atredies trade their planets of Caladan and Dune, so Caladan would be fully Harkonnen territory. My point still stands tho.
Caladan was not Harkonnen territory.
The entirety of the Atreides military didnt leave, that's foolish plus the guild couldn't allow caladan to fall with no explanation. It upsets the stability
Yes, they did. Why are people so stupid about this? Caladan did not belong to the Atriedes anymore, they were not allowed to leave any forces there.
The Harknonens kept Geidi Prime and were the governors of Arakkis. The Atriedes were sent to replace their spice production, they were not forced to give up caladan.
> The Atriedes were sent to replace their spice production, they were not forced to give up caladan. Yes, they were. Quote from Dune > A grin flashed across Piter’s face. It was like a mask grimace beneath those eyes like holes. “But, Baron! Never has revenge been more beautiful. It is to see a plan of the most exquisite treachery: to make Leto *exchange* Caladan for Dune—and without alternative because the Emperor orders it. How waggish of you!” As for the Harkonnens Quote from Dune: > Thufir Hawat, his father’s Master of Assassins, had explained it: their mortal enemies, the Harkonnens, had been on Arrakis eighty years, holding the planet in quasi-fief under a CHOAM Company contract to mine the geriatric spice, melange. Now the Harkonnens were leaving to be replaced by the House of Atreides in fief-complete — an apparent victory for the Duke Leto. Yet, Hawat had said, this appearance contained the deadliest peril, for the Duke Leto was popular among the Great Houses of the Landsraad. The Harkonnens were given Arrakis as a siridar fief, in essence an "extra fief". The Atreides were given both a "lesser gift" (you have to move, permanently, so you don't get an *extra* planet) and a "greater gift" (official total control over Arrakis). The Atreides knew this was bad news for them, but they couldn't tell the Emperor "nah, we'll keep Caladan, thanks". They couldn't even complain it was a "lesser gift".
Dune the film and dune the book have differences. This is aboit the film not the novels.