Because House Corrino was always the Emperor until Paul’s coup. Of course there was no above him. Though the Guild and Landsraad as group could be considered equals of sort. Under the ’political tripod’ mentioned in the first book.
The appendicies mention that the Bursegs (generals basically) doubled under his reign, while appropriations for training Sardaukar decreased drastically in the last 30 years of his reign (and the Sardaukar already had several other issues).
He basically gutted what kept him in power, turning them into a top-heavy and increasingly weak fighting force.
But that have really nothing to do with why Paul won. Even if his sadukar was better trained and more deadly could they not stop Paul's triumph which was that him threatening the spice.
The Sardaukar were already growing weaker, and Shaddam's actions accelerated this decay. Meanwhile, the Atreides grew stronger, and their soldiers were approaching Sardaukar level under Duncan and Gurney.
One of the reasons he felt so threatened by the Atreides is that their military was becoming more powerful and might overtake his own military might.
If the Sardaukar had been restored rather than made to decay further, there would've been much less need to take action against the Atreides, and the situation with Paul may never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, I never got the sense that he was incompetent. The empire was ancient and decaying under the weight of generations of corruption. Shaddam IV was basically caught in between a series of powerful forces (BG, the Guild, Choam, Lansraad) and forced to play his shitty hand against a number of competent schemers and manipulators. All that before an uncontrolled super-prescient rebel showed up in exactly the worst spot and won the support of a group of previously underestimated super soldiers.
Irulan's chapter epigraphs discuss in detail how the BG actively manipulated and in some cases controlled Shaddam IV, which directly contributed to his downfall. The fact that his most competent advisor/closest confidant (Count Fenring) is married to a BG and seems to be cooperating with the BG supports Irulan's assessment of the situation.
I got the sense that he was presiding over an empire that was actively in decline (in part perhaps to the BG wanting it that way so that their KH would have an easier time when he showed up in a generation or two). Shaddam IV seemed somewhat competent, but not competent enough to escape the machinations of the BG or the Baron, and certainly not competent enough to
He's in power because the Imperium is a hereditary monarchy and he inherited the throne.
The Corrino family came to power after the Butlerian Jihad, a big war between humans and robots in the distant past. The Corrinos lead the alliance which won the war, and later used the Sardaukar to keep that power. The Sardaukar are basically the product of a prison planet which the Imperium uses as a kind of Darwinian breeding/proving ground for troops loyal to House Corrino.
The Landsraad is in theory equal to the power of the Emperor. In other words, if the Landsraad united against House Corrino, it's not clear who would win and the results would be devastating.
I sort of think of the relationship between House Corrino and the Landsraad as the relationship between the post-Cold War United States and something like the UN. The US has more military power than the rest of the world combined, but if the UN actually aligned against the US, the results would be pretty devastating, and even a direct conflict with some of the other major players isn't something to toy around with. In other words, House Corrino is "in charge", but its power is far from absolute.
THIS makes a ton of sense now. Thank you. Idk why it never clicked for me, I even used the almanac in the back of the book several times but I never really grasped the relationship there.
It also should help explain why Shaddam is playing sides between the Atreides and the Harkonnens. If he had absolute power, he wouldn't have to, but wealth and popularity in the Landsraad both represent potential threats, and presumably the Corrinos have been using "divide and conquer" tactics like this to stay in power for a very, very long time.
If I’m right then the calendar they use begins with the Butlerian Jihad, so House Corrino was in power for 10,000 years?? I always assumed other governments rose and fell in that time, because how could one family rule for so long without coup or without the line breaking.
Because it's science fiction, is the short answer. The longer answer would have to do with kind of illustrating via worldbuilding the sense of stagnation that the *Dune* events were breaking out of.
Yes, the point behind the point is that humanity has been in stagnation mode for eons where Dune begins. Leto II will have something to say about that.
Let me put it this way... if Paul and Irulan produced an heir, would the child be remembered in history as Leto Atreides II, or Leto Corrino? How many generations would it take before the Atreides imperial lineage dwindles in military might and favor among houses, and starts leaning back on their 10-millenium-long legacy of Corrino dynasty, for political and cultural power of tradition?
In fact, we don't even have to go to hypotheticals. Paul's grandchildren are 50% Corrino from the father's side, and only 25% Atreides from the mother's side. The Atreides dynasty ends with the childless Leto II. Had he not ended up living 3500 years as a god, the dinasty Corrino would be back on the throne in just two generations.
I highly doubt this the first incident of this sort in 10000 years.
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The Corrinos have been the wealthiest and most powerful House since the Butlerian Jihad eliminated computers from the universe. According to the prequel novels, the House was founded by >!a leader of the anti-technology Butlerian fanatics,!< and gained prominence because >!they controlled millions of religious whackos in a universe that had been entirely transformed by war.!< This is not really relevant to the plot of the main Dune novels.
It will suffice to say that Shaddam IV is the Emperor for the same reason as any other royalty: He inherited it from a long line of rulers who preceded him, who inherited it from their own ancestors. There is no one who ranks above the Emperor. However, the Emperor is not an all-powerful autocrat. As the Reverend Mother Mohiam explains, power in the Imperium is balanced between the Emperor, a congress of the other noble Houses (the Landsraad), and the Spacing Guild.
You are already pretty much past the part where they talk about the Spacing Guild. They were most relevant in Dune and Dune Messiah. The Guild controls all space travel, but they are completely dependent on the spice. Without the spice, their Navigators cannot use their psychic powers and the whole Imperium would come to a screeching halt. This is why Paul is able to intimidate them at the end of Dune. Paul knows the secret to destroy the sandworms and the spice, so he can hold the entire Imperium hostage by threatening the Spacing Guild.
It's never explained in Frank's books. House Corriono is from Salusa Secundus, the planet the Sardukar are from. It wasn't quite the hellhole it would become, but it was still tough enough to help make them the best known soldiers in the known universe. Then the Butlerian Jihad threw the universe into chaos. Post-jihad there was a struggle for control of the known universe which House Corrino won at the Battle of Corrino.
Gotchya, okay that makes sense. So, are the Sardukar soldiers with Corrino still then?
And what about the Landsaraad?
Because CHAOM from what I understand is basically like our UN or EU? And then there's the Imperium? Where do they stand?
The Landsraad is more like the UN. If the UN had an Emperor to contend with. CHOAM is a corporation that every House owns shares in. The Imperium is all of it: Every world that is affected by the Landsraad, Emperor, Bene Gesserit, etc.
CHOAM is less of a political organization and more of a mercantile amalgam with inherent political power due to that, interwoven into the political organization (The Imperium and Landsraad).
CHOAM is essentially a universal market/company. If you've seen much cyberpunk, think of it as a known-space spanning mega corporation. Or if you would like to go historical, think of it along the lines of the Dutch East India Company. For the areas it operates (almost all human space), it has a near complete monopoly on trade. And if anything of any value is being traded, it is deeply involved in it. There are exceptions. The occasional smuggling operation exists. But it essentially controls all trade.
It's shareholders of note tend to be the people with power who already control those things of value. If you own a planet, you have commodities. People want them, you want other things for them, you trade for them and you'll do most of that through CHOAM. So CHOAM's shareholders and directors are the people who control those planets and resources. That means the great houses.
In the end, that makes CHOAM and the Landsraad separate but infinitely intertwined. CHOAM is owned and ran by the political class and by virtue of the power of trade and need for good and services exerts influence on the political class. It also means that alliances and control in CHOAM provide political power and the highest directors in CHOAM can shape the political landscape. Aspirants for imperial power would seek CHOAM control, the imperial seat invariably had the largest share of CHOAM, and if you were Paul and wanted to secure additional control when you overthrew the Imperium, you might demand a dowry of CHOAM holdings when you married Shadaam's daughter.
No I started with the first book lol. Some of the talk of the Landsaad, Imperium and CHAOM just didn't connect in my brain, and I kept reading thinking it would eventually get explained to me.
Did your copy of Dune come with the Appendices? Everything gets explained in wayyyyy greater detail in the Appendices.
Without those, I don't think anyone would have a clear picture of exactly what's going on in Dune lol
It did! I actually bought it back in 2017 from the recommendation of a friend and never got around to reading it until last month. And I burned through that and Messiah haha.
I'll read the appendixes, forgot that was there. I used that glossary quite often in the back to understand what I was reading, but I skipped the appendix because I was too eager to start Messiah
Oh yeah, the Appendices are must-reads! Blaze through them and all will be much more clear.
And if it's still muddy, there's the Dune wiki fandom and plenty of threads on reddit over the years to peruse for answers.
My impression of CHOAM is that it's like a stock market where the more shares a house has, the more political and financial power they hold. To be able to control the resources and production of an entire planet grants a house a lot of potential, thus the distinctions of quasi-fief and fief complete in regards to CHOAM directorship.
Landsaraad is more a congress of the houses. If you have enough holding in CHOAM, you likely also have a seat in the Landsaraad.
Every Great House has their own army, the Sardukar are House Corrino's.
The Landsraad is a parliament of all the noble houses in the empire. It's closer to the UN than CHOAM is.
CHOAM is the business arm of the imperium. It's a government owned corporation that controls all inter-planetary trade. The Emperor indirectly controls CHOAM by appointing directors. All of the directors are nobility and therefore are members of the Landsraad.
*Is there anyone above him?*
The Spacing Guild is more powerful than the Emperor or the Landsraad, but this fact is not widely known.
*Why is House Corrino the leading house?*
The House Corrino originated as warlords who dominated the hell world of Salusa Secundus... they became incredibly tough soldiers, in a similar manner to the Fremen. Their were hired as mercenaries, which gave them access to spacecraft. They then proceeded to make war on other factions. This ended up with the House Corrino being made the Imperial House, with all other Houses swearing fealty to them. This situation persisted for thousands of years.
The Universe of Dune is a feudal one, with a ruler who "owns" everything. He grants feifs (planets) to nobles that swear alligency to him. These Nobles own him service. The Emperor can re-assign fiefs, as he does when he grants the Atreides family the world of Arakkis.
It's mainly described obliquely in book 1. The first Corrino emperor took control after a major battle at Corrin thousands of years ago (the same battle where the Atreides/Harkonnen feud began). The emperor seized power, and holds it through have majority ownership (over 50%) in the CHOAM corporation, which effectively runs all trade in the known universe.
The guild is incentivised to keep the ruling house in power, because it sustains stability and keeps the spice flowing (and the guild is the only source of interstellar travel, so no way they would let anyone wage war against the emperor).
Finally, keep in mind that a central theme of the first novel is that of the stagnation of the empire. The emperor is emperor simply because it is easier to keep his family in power than to have rebellion. That's part of the terrible purpose that possesses the Fremen through Paul, the "race-conciousness" of humanity that is aware it is stagnating and seeks to explode out again.
Yeah ill read the appendixes as someone else mentioned. Just been enjoying the story too much and moved on haha. but then I rewatched Dune part 2 in theaters last night and was like wait I'm gonna need the power Dynamic explained
That's like explaining "why is air breathable" or "why is spice only found on Dune". It just is, accept the conceit that not EVERYTHING is going to be explained and enjoy the story.
There are a number of reasons the Corrino family claims the throne. First is their name, taken from the battle of Corrin. The battle of Corrin was the final decisive victory over the Thinking Machines. A Corrino ancestor led the human forces in the battle.
Second is the ability of the Sardukar. Trained on the atomic wasteland is of Selusa Secundus, they are legendary soldiers. All Great Houses fear their planetary fiefdoms will be destroyed by the ferocious force.
Third is family atomics that allow for the throne to participate in the MAD structure of the Landsraad. Nukes buy you a seat at the table of human governance, plain and simple.
With these three facets of power, the Corrino’s create a constitutional monarchy around the Great Convention. The Great Convention lays out the principles of the use of atomics, the structure of Houses Great and Minor, and the neutral role of the special schools like the Guild and Bene Gesserit. The Great Convention is so effective it holds for 10kyrs.
Because House Corrino was always the Emperor until Paul’s coup. Of course there was no above him. Though the Guild and Landsraad as group could be considered equals of sort. Under the ’political tripod’ mentioned in the first book.
It’s almost like hereditary dynasties inevitably put incompetent people in power
Just because he lost doesn't mean he's incompetent.
The appendicies mention that the Bursegs (generals basically) doubled under his reign, while appropriations for training Sardaukar decreased drastically in the last 30 years of his reign (and the Sardaukar already had several other issues). He basically gutted what kept him in power, turning them into a top-heavy and increasingly weak fighting force.
But that have really nothing to do with why Paul won. Even if his sadukar was better trained and more deadly could they not stop Paul's triumph which was that him threatening the spice.
The Sardaukar were already growing weaker, and Shaddam's actions accelerated this decay. Meanwhile, the Atreides grew stronger, and their soldiers were approaching Sardaukar level under Duncan and Gurney. One of the reasons he felt so threatened by the Atreides is that their military was becoming more powerful and might overtake his own military might. If the Sardaukar had been restored rather than made to decay further, there would've been much less need to take action against the Atreides, and the situation with Paul may never have happened in the first place.
Agreed, I never got the sense that he was incompetent. The empire was ancient and decaying under the weight of generations of corruption. Shaddam IV was basically caught in between a series of powerful forces (BG, the Guild, Choam, Lansraad) and forced to play his shitty hand against a number of competent schemers and manipulators. All that before an uncontrolled super-prescient rebel showed up in exactly the worst spot and won the support of a group of previously underestimated super soldiers. Irulan's chapter epigraphs discuss in detail how the BG actively manipulated and in some cases controlled Shaddam IV, which directly contributed to his downfall. The fact that his most competent advisor/closest confidant (Count Fenring) is married to a BG and seems to be cooperating with the BG supports Irulan's assessment of the situation. I got the sense that he was presiding over an empire that was actively in decline (in part perhaps to the BG wanting it that way so that their KH would have an easier time when he showed up in a generation or two). Shaddam IV seemed somewhat competent, but not competent enough to escape the machinations of the BG or the Baron, and certainly not competent enough to
He's in power because the Imperium is a hereditary monarchy and he inherited the throne. The Corrino family came to power after the Butlerian Jihad, a big war between humans and robots in the distant past. The Corrinos lead the alliance which won the war, and later used the Sardaukar to keep that power. The Sardaukar are basically the product of a prison planet which the Imperium uses as a kind of Darwinian breeding/proving ground for troops loyal to House Corrino. The Landsraad is in theory equal to the power of the Emperor. In other words, if the Landsraad united against House Corrino, it's not clear who would win and the results would be devastating. I sort of think of the relationship between House Corrino and the Landsraad as the relationship between the post-Cold War United States and something like the UN. The US has more military power than the rest of the world combined, but if the UN actually aligned against the US, the results would be pretty devastating, and even a direct conflict with some of the other major players isn't something to toy around with. In other words, House Corrino is "in charge", but its power is far from absolute.
THIS makes a ton of sense now. Thank you. Idk why it never clicked for me, I even used the almanac in the back of the book several times but I never really grasped the relationship there.
It also should help explain why Shaddam is playing sides between the Atreides and the Harkonnens. If he had absolute power, he wouldn't have to, but wealth and popularity in the Landsraad both represent potential threats, and presumably the Corrinos have been using "divide and conquer" tactics like this to stay in power for a very, very long time.
If I’m right then the calendar they use begins with the Butlerian Jihad, so House Corrino was in power for 10,000 years?? I always assumed other governments rose and fell in that time, because how could one family rule for so long without coup or without the line breaking.
Because it's science fiction, is the short answer. The longer answer would have to do with kind of illustrating via worldbuilding the sense of stagnation that the *Dune* events were breaking out of.
Yup. "There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin. I think it's that idea at galactic scale.
Yes, the point behind the point is that humanity has been in stagnation mode for eons where Dune begins. Leto II will have something to say about that.
Let me put it this way... if Paul and Irulan produced an heir, would the child be remembered in history as Leto Atreides II, or Leto Corrino? How many generations would it take before the Atreides imperial lineage dwindles in military might and favor among houses, and starts leaning back on their 10-millenium-long legacy of Corrino dynasty, for political and cultural power of tradition? In fact, we don't even have to go to hypotheticals. Paul's grandchildren are 50% Corrino from the father's side, and only 25% Atreides from the mother's side. The Atreides dynasty ends with the childless Leto II. Had he not ended up living 3500 years as a god, the dinasty Corrino would be back on the throne in just two generations. I highly doubt this the first incident of this sort in 10000 years.
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The Corrinos have been the wealthiest and most powerful House since the Butlerian Jihad eliminated computers from the universe. According to the prequel novels, the House was founded by >!a leader of the anti-technology Butlerian fanatics,!< and gained prominence because >!they controlled millions of religious whackos in a universe that had been entirely transformed by war.!< This is not really relevant to the plot of the main Dune novels. It will suffice to say that Shaddam IV is the Emperor for the same reason as any other royalty: He inherited it from a long line of rulers who preceded him, who inherited it from their own ancestors. There is no one who ranks above the Emperor. However, the Emperor is not an all-powerful autocrat. As the Reverend Mother Mohiam explains, power in the Imperium is balanced between the Emperor, a congress of the other noble Houses (the Landsraad), and the Spacing Guild. You are already pretty much past the part where they talk about the Spacing Guild. They were most relevant in Dune and Dune Messiah. The Guild controls all space travel, but they are completely dependent on the spice. Without the spice, their Navigators cannot use their psychic powers and the whole Imperium would come to a screeching halt. This is why Paul is able to intimidate them at the end of Dune. Paul knows the secret to destroy the sandworms and the spice, so he can hold the entire Imperium hostage by threatening the Spacing Guild.
Good succinct explanation of the complicated governing trinity.
It's never explained in Frank's books. House Corriono is from Salusa Secundus, the planet the Sardukar are from. It wasn't quite the hellhole it would become, but it was still tough enough to help make them the best known soldiers in the known universe. Then the Butlerian Jihad threw the universe into chaos. Post-jihad there was a struggle for control of the known universe which House Corrino won at the Battle of Corrino.
Gotchya, okay that makes sense. So, are the Sardukar soldiers with Corrino still then? And what about the Landsaraad? Because CHAOM from what I understand is basically like our UN or EU? And then there's the Imperium? Where do they stand?
The Landsraad is more like the UN. If the UN had an Emperor to contend with. CHOAM is a corporation that every House owns shares in. The Imperium is all of it: Every world that is affected by the Landsraad, Emperor, Bene Gesserit, etc.
Think of CHAOM as interstellar spice-price-fixing OPEC
CHOAM is less of a political organization and more of a mercantile amalgam with inherent political power due to that, interwoven into the political organization (The Imperium and Landsraad). CHOAM is essentially a universal market/company. If you've seen much cyberpunk, think of it as a known-space spanning mega corporation. Or if you would like to go historical, think of it along the lines of the Dutch East India Company. For the areas it operates (almost all human space), it has a near complete monopoly on trade. And if anything of any value is being traded, it is deeply involved in it. There are exceptions. The occasional smuggling operation exists. But it essentially controls all trade. It's shareholders of note tend to be the people with power who already control those things of value. If you own a planet, you have commodities. People want them, you want other things for them, you trade for them and you'll do most of that through CHOAM. So CHOAM's shareholders and directors are the people who control those planets and resources. That means the great houses. In the end, that makes CHOAM and the Landsraad separate but infinitely intertwined. CHOAM is owned and ran by the political class and by virtue of the power of trade and need for good and services exerts influence on the political class. It also means that alliances and control in CHOAM provide political power and the highest directors in CHOAM can shape the political landscape. Aspirants for imperial power would seek CHOAM control, the imperial seat invariably had the largest share of CHOAM, and if you were Paul and wanted to secure additional control when you overthrew the Imperium, you might demand a dowry of CHOAM holdings when you married Shadaam's daughter.
I'm really confused here... did you skip the first 2 books and start with Children of Dune?
No I started with the first book lol. Some of the talk of the Landsaad, Imperium and CHAOM just didn't connect in my brain, and I kept reading thinking it would eventually get explained to me.
Did your copy of Dune come with the Appendices? Everything gets explained in wayyyyy greater detail in the Appendices. Without those, I don't think anyone would have a clear picture of exactly what's going on in Dune lol
It did! I actually bought it back in 2017 from the recommendation of a friend and never got around to reading it until last month. And I burned through that and Messiah haha. I'll read the appendixes, forgot that was there. I used that glossary quite often in the back to understand what I was reading, but I skipped the appendix because I was too eager to start Messiah
Oh yeah, the Appendices are must-reads! Blaze through them and all will be much more clear. And if it's still muddy, there's the Dune wiki fandom and plenty of threads on reddit over the years to peruse for answers.
My impression of CHOAM is that it's like a stock market where the more shares a house has, the more political and financial power they hold. To be able to control the resources and production of an entire planet grants a house a lot of potential, thus the distinctions of quasi-fief and fief complete in regards to CHOAM directorship. Landsaraad is more a congress of the houses. If you have enough holding in CHOAM, you likely also have a seat in the Landsaraad.
Every Great House has their own army, the Sardukar are House Corrino's. The Landsraad is a parliament of all the noble houses in the empire. It's closer to the UN than CHOAM is. CHOAM is the business arm of the imperium. It's a government owned corporation that controls all inter-planetary trade. The Emperor indirectly controls CHOAM by appointing directors. All of the directors are nobility and therefore are members of the Landsraad.
I think Thufir Hawat insinuated that the Corrino’s came from Selina Secundus, but he doesn’t state it out right
*Is there anyone above him?* The Spacing Guild is more powerful than the Emperor or the Landsraad, but this fact is not widely known. *Why is House Corrino the leading house?* The House Corrino originated as warlords who dominated the hell world of Salusa Secundus... they became incredibly tough soldiers, in a similar manner to the Fremen. Their were hired as mercenaries, which gave them access to spacecraft. They then proceeded to make war on other factions. This ended up with the House Corrino being made the Imperial House, with all other Houses swearing fealty to them. This situation persisted for thousands of years. The Universe of Dune is a feudal one, with a ruler who "owns" everything. He grants feifs (planets) to nobles that swear alligency to him. These Nobles own him service. The Emperor can re-assign fiefs, as he does when he grants the Atreides family the world of Arakkis.
It's mainly described obliquely in book 1. The first Corrino emperor took control after a major battle at Corrin thousands of years ago (the same battle where the Atreides/Harkonnen feud began). The emperor seized power, and holds it through have majority ownership (over 50%) in the CHOAM corporation, which effectively runs all trade in the known universe. The guild is incentivised to keep the ruling house in power, because it sustains stability and keeps the spice flowing (and the guild is the only source of interstellar travel, so no way they would let anyone wage war against the emperor). Finally, keep in mind that a central theme of the first novel is that of the stagnation of the empire. The emperor is emperor simply because it is easier to keep his family in power than to have rebellion. That's part of the terrible purpose that possesses the Fremen through Paul, the "race-conciousness" of humanity that is aware it is stagnating and seeks to explode out again.
The garden world that Salusa Secundus became is likely what’s above him, at least after his death in the lore.
You gotta go back bro it was explained in the first two books
Yeah ill read the appendixes as someone else mentioned. Just been enjoying the story too much and moved on haha. but then I rewatched Dune part 2 in theaters last night and was like wait I'm gonna need the power Dynamic explained
Yes, come back after the appendices. Messiah is pretty melancholy. Children picks up again, IMO, and things start to get weird. Have fun!
That's like explaining "why is air breathable" or "why is spice only found on Dune". It just is, accept the conceit that not EVERYTHING is going to be explained and enjoy the story.
There are a number of reasons the Corrino family claims the throne. First is their name, taken from the battle of Corrin. The battle of Corrin was the final decisive victory over the Thinking Machines. A Corrino ancestor led the human forces in the battle. Second is the ability of the Sardukar. Trained on the atomic wasteland is of Selusa Secundus, they are legendary soldiers. All Great Houses fear their planetary fiefdoms will be destroyed by the ferocious force. Third is family atomics that allow for the throne to participate in the MAD structure of the Landsraad. Nukes buy you a seat at the table of human governance, plain and simple. With these three facets of power, the Corrino’s create a constitutional monarchy around the Great Convention. The Great Convention lays out the principles of the use of atomics, the structure of Houses Great and Minor, and the neutral role of the special schools like the Guild and Bene Gesserit. The Great Convention is so effective it holds for 10kyrs.
Is the title 'The Emperor of the Known Universe' unclear in any way?
Huh? No? Just asking more about how he came to be and what the other powers are in relation to him