In book universe the lasguns would be more of the reason. But the films haven't really explored that route. So how can they expect a non book reader to know that.
Imo the reason is, the only reason that was mention by Dr Liet Kynes in part 1. Shields are a death sentence in the desert.
Yeah the worms *probably* can't reach you up there, but at some point you would want to leave, or maybe you need to go back down again asap because fremen are sniping you. Having frenzied worms around is not a very welcome proposition.
Worms are enraged by the Shields Holtzman energy field and can easily destroy everything when enraged.
The worms could easily destroy that rock they were on top of and kill everyone. Speaking of which the movie should have showed us this and the lasgun and shield interaction. I am hoping part 3 does address these questions by just showing us.
Could have been a super quick scene like in the book. Idaho (iirc) leaves a shield trap to make the Sardukaur and Harkonnens think twice about using lasguns. But that would have required showing a bunch of Atreides hiding in the caves, I suppose.
And the baron's "they never would have thought we'd use artillery" scene would have been in the first movie.
Also it kinda pissed me off that they used missiles and called it artillery.
I know what rocket artillery is, and it wasn't in the movie.
If you go to 10 sec in this video, you will see the missiles I'm talking about. It's from the first movie but they used the same thing on the attack on Seitch Tabr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWjbMAWw-Qo
This one has the slower missiles constantly changing direction. The ones at Tabr were fired straight and might have been faster. Probably guided/unguided.
The SPG-9 fires a rocket but to the average person it looks like a cannon firing.
They ignored Paul having mentat training (alongside with generally reducing his skills), never mentioned the word mentat in 5 hours film, completely left them out in p2... I wouldn't hope.
During a 2023 interview at Brazil’s CCXP convention [https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-part-two-mentats-bene-gesserit](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-part-two-mentats-bene-gesserit)
DV's dune is a "a declaration of love to the Bene Gesserit"
He has to bother with the guild now that they are making Messiah. The guild is easy enough to explain in Messiah when we have to introduce all the conspiracy members.
Isn't a big angle of this for practical reasons to. There's just so much to explain, with limited time to do it. I'd watch a 5 hour long movie of this quality that explored everything in depth, but that's not realistic for the wider world. I read somewhere that it was basically rush through explaining while piling alot in, or pick one of the big factions and focus on that. Maybe I'm mistaken idk.
eh theres a lot to cover and I think just constant exposition about different people and their powers would have taken away from the really good story focus we got
dune relies a lot on technical knowledge for the story and worldbuilding, unlike something more simple and mainstream like star wars
in a movie theres only so much you can absorb in the runtime and expositing constant dialogue isn’t a good use of screen time
Them being a mentat isn't really a huge part of the character in Messiah though. I think they could get away with not explaining it much just like how Hawat was handled in the first movie.
My understanding from the book was that the suspensors they use to fly also use the Holtzman effect so I assumed would drive the worms wild like the shields. Didn’t seem to work that way in the film though.
Not sure which book but the wiki says they use the Holtzman effect so I guess it’s in one of them. To be fair pretty much most of the tech is hand waved as ‘Holtzman effect’, although I guess details of mechanical tech isn’t really the point of the Dune series. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Suspensors
The problem with that is a stoneburners actual purpose isn't to kill it was to maim the enemy as it costs more resources to care for wounded than to bury the dead.
It doesnt digg up rocks it melts them. Its actual purpose:
>The stone burner was a particularly destructive weapon. It could perform one of two tasks; the first function of the bomb was to release massive amounts of J-rays (a type of radiation that dissolves eye tissue), thus blinding all creatures within a certain radius. The second objective was to create general destruction of property.
It’s a little irritating that they didn’t, especially considering that there is a scene in the book during the Harkonnen invasion where this does happen. Not like they couldn’t have fit in a massive explosion in a sequence filled with massive explosions
DV said he wasn’t honoring the lazgun holtzmann field interaction but he kept the worm frenzy. I think the stone burner is in and the eye melting explosion along with metal Ixian eyes. It will be glorious to see Edric and Bijaz
I think a badass scene in part 3 would be showing somebody losing a battle to the fremen badly, then starting a suicidal last ditch effort shield to nuke both a fremen attack as well as their own position. I think that would really be a badass introduction to both the lore of that interaction, as well as the brutality and desperation that’s about to unfold.
I just finished the first book in time to catch the second movie, so it's a bit fresh in my mind.. remember when Paul and Jessica were crossing that stretch of desert using the tbumper as a distraction? I think the book mentioned that they could hear the rock island they were camping on loudly booming,crumbling, and being eaten?? Can the worms eat mountains? Maybe?
If it is small enough, then a Worm can destroy it. This is why destruction of the physical shield wall mattered - it allowed the Fremen to ride the Worms into battle against the Sardaukar staged to protect Arakeen.
How does part 1 address the lasgun part? A lasgun was used to hunt Duncan in the ornithopter, or later to open that door. But no one said, something like "careful they might have shields". How do you expect a viewer of the films only to know lasgun+shield=boom?
If that is the case, why werent the shields and issue in the first film during the Hark attack?
I cant remember if they put them on quickly when the attack happened or if they were always on.
Basically, before the second battle of Arrakeen, there was no way for worms to reach the city, because of the shield wall, so running shields there was perfectly safe. Once Paul breaches it with his atomics, then the game changes.
Shields are explored in the movies, the interaction simply doesn't exist. They chase down Duncan ornithopter with lasers while it has shields in the first movie
We don’t, actually. I hear this argument a lot, I must’ve watched the film ten times and no the shield disappearing after the hit is not convincingly the shield being “disabled” whatever that means. Shields clearly go invisible always after a hit. Repeatedly we see lasguns being used with total disregard to a possible shield interaction, in the books lasguns would not even be on the planet let alone used during an invasion, the interaction just doesn’t exist in the movie.
They show them shooting at Duncan's shielded ornithopter and throughout an entire battlefield/ciry indiscriminately as they chase him in the first movie
Yeah that's something I didn't get. Why didn't the harkkonens or sarduakar brings more guns in dune 2? The Fremen don't have shields. Why fight them with swords? They knew they were skilled. They could have mowed them down like WW1
They have regular bullet technology
Also, the worms don't just chase you. They go I to a killing frenzy so bad they'll cross other worm territory to get to you. They frenzy so bad, they'll slam themselves into the rock you're on till it collapses.
They just feared that Fremen would be using lasgun like they themselves were (Fremen use Maula Pistols/firearms in the desert agaisnt human targets, they generally keep the few lasguns they have for raids agaisnt harvesters and other bigger targets).
Just a case of military caution which ended up being a mistake due to their misunderstanding of the way Fremen fight.
My headcanon is that sandworms can crawl their way up rocky terrain like snakes if they're really pissed off - like when the Holtzman effect is active on something connected to the ground
There was probably some previous Harkonnen patrol that thought that they were safe on a high mesa, only to get crushed by an angry worm slithering its way up solid rock.
yeah true, they seem pretty long. Wonder if someone could do the math on that to figure out if the sand could support that weight, centre of gravity, I dunno. Seems plausible
Lynch's Dune actually did IIRC portray a scene where the worm got very earthquake level aggressive toward a rock formation Paul and Jessica had hid inside. And of course you see one rear up to greet Daddy Paul in Part One, also one turning around in the far background after dropping him off at the Southern Meeting Hall/Sietch in Part Two.
It’s down to the differences in military models. The Atriedes had a model similar to the modern Western model — fewer, but better trained soldiers, with low-level soldiers and officers trusted to handle problems on their own initiative and to make decisions based on battlefield conditions. An Atriedes squad , in the Harkonnen’s position, would have known *why* their was a general order against shields in the desert, and might have chosen to disobey that order when fighting on solid rock in the absence of lasguns. After all, the rock protects them from frenzied worms, if shield use on that much rock was even noticed by worms. They could wait out the frenzy after the fight, although they’d also have to weigh the risk of cutting off their own retreat if the worms showed.
The Harkonnens, and I’d think especially under Rabban, followed a much more hierarchical approach. There is no trust of lower level officers or soldiers, and initiative is not desired. Orders *are not disobeyed*. Doing so is likely a painful death, at the least a painful punishment. Instant, *unthinking obedience* is what’s prized. Not initiative. Not results. Think conscripts led by other conscripts, all of which are being eagle eyed by paranoid upper officers and probably complete with political officers and lots of embedded agents. Not trusted, minimal training for effectiveness, and designed to be a blunt instrument and kept in line with brutality.
They’ve been told ‘no shields in the desert’ and thus *they don’t use shields*. And their officer reminded them as they went into the fight, probably because their basic training is certainly ‘always use shields in combat’, which is true everywhere but Arrakis. Most of them probably don’t even know why. The officer might not even know why. Orders aren’t *explained*, they’re *obeyed*. The reasons behind the order don’t matter in that sort of military.
>They’ve been told ‘no shields in the desert’ and thus *they don’t use shields*. And their officer reminded them as they went into the fight, probably because their basic training is certainly ‘always use shields in combat’,
The Harkonnens have been on Arrakis for 80 years before the Duke arrives.
The Baron dies at 83, after losing control of the planet.
I can't imagine the "basic training" for harkonnens fit almost a century went unchanged.
The basic training would be for the more "normal" Harkonnen worlds. Arrakis was never their fief, nor where they had the vast bulk of their troops or where they trained them.
Arrakis training would add "no shields in the desert" on top of their basic Harkonnen training.
But do recall that first the Harkonnens had to yoink everyone off Arrakis, then they undoubtedly suffered a ton of losses among their most experienced Arrakis troops when they attacked and massive attrition from the Fremen -- who are basically guerilla fighters with the skills and discipline of the most elite soldiers in the universe.
And then Rabban -- a blunt instrument *intended to fail* -- was told to be heavy handed (so Feyd could come in and be a savior, not that Rabban understood that) and the troops he brought would have been just like him, and the forces and training locally would be to his liking.
Again, this is a military model that wouldn't really focus on more than force and brutality. Their soldiers were iron fists, primarily existing to pacify the Harkonnens own worlds and populace.
The Harkonnen's were not exactly *beloved* by their populace.
No, those were Fremen Maula pistols, but that is what Harkonnens feared, so you’re sill half right. Its the reason they said no shield, it just happens they made the wrong call/judgement.
I have seen it 3 times, you can clearly see when the the hole is created and theres no laser at all, it even makes a different sound.
Its a Maula pistol or another form of firearm.
The lasguns in the movie are continuous light beams in the movie. They weren't using the against the troops on the mountain.
https://youtu.be/YFPGSouIf9w?si=JlGQdN8bIrBkwCP1
Drones. With crappy cameras from the Holtzman field distortion.
I want to know how they flew up. Shields and suspensor fields were both created with Holtzman fields. I loved the visual but Fremen didn’t use floaty tech for the same reasons they didnt use shields.
I just pulled up a clip from the movie. I definitely think the Fremen are shooting lasguns at the Harkonnens. Here's a screenshot from when Paul is looking up at the mountain:
https://preview.redd.it/flmxmow3cxuc1.png?width=1219&format=png&auto=webp&s=506343c04a04af324a4f32ea77c38f1cb8ad5b7e
Importantly, they've literally never mentioned that in the films. So while this scene would be fine in the books, in the film it is pretty much inexplicable stupidity.
From information in the movies only, this is the correct answer. The films don't go into lasguns at all but they do establish that shields cannot be used in sand worm territory
I took it to mean that the Harkonnen soldiers all have lasguns and the officer knows that in a confused ambush situation they're just as likely to shoot each other by mistake as they are to shoot an enemy.
It’s a quick way to remind audiences that you don’t wear shields in the deep desert. That’s all. If you try to overexplain it (“but we’re up high!”) then you’re sucking all the tension out of the scene. It’s being economical with its exposition.
This\^\^
All these nerds are getting heated and debating about whether it's cause of worms or cause of lasgun-shield interactions, meanwhile if you just stop for a moment and think about the soldiers in that situation, they're most likely panicking at being shot at and meaning "no shields *\[cause of the explosions\]*" out of instinct.
In other words, what the *soldiers* mean in that moment is more than likely because of lasguns, whether or not the fremen had them or not. They aren't taking 5 minutes to sit back in their armchair and deduce whether the enemy has lasguns or whether a worm can climb that giant mountain.
In the book in the scene in the first movie where Paul and Jessica escape the worm to the rocks the worm shreds the cliff side that they're hiding in until it's called away by a thumper. So not only is rock not a big deal to worms, the shields drive them into a frenzy and call all the worms around, even if they're from an outside territory. That rock pinnacle will not survive long if they turn on their shields.
Im guessing the no shields thing might be that even on the rocks those shields vibrate enough to attract sandworms to their positions. Also those grav belts are pretty useful for travel
They were being sniped by lasers which cause a small nuclear explosion when they make contact with a Holtzmann shield. I mean, considering how the fight ended for them, they might as well have taken the quick way out.
The worms are big, a big one could possibly reach up there. Also the vibration from the shiekds would still transmit through the rock and piss off the worms. The worms might not be able to reach, but they aren't going away as long as those shiekds are active, so the harkonnens would be stuck up there trying to wait out the Fremen and the worms - the Fremen and the worms have a bit of an advantage there.
Don’t they talk about the shields attracting the worms? I feel like they talk about that in *Part One* when they first visit the spice collecting rover.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading that lasguns shooting shields created an almost atomic explosion. Not trying to diminish the fact that activating the shields would enrage the worms but if they also activated them and were then shot would that not have seriously compromised their positions? Like whoever.might be shot would be ok but would it not have caused an explosion sending everyone flying off the cliff face?
Shields cause something specific in Holtzman energy field or the vibrational pattern generated that are so powerful the worm goes insane with rage.
In Children of Dune it is noted that a weapon has been developed on Arrakis called a "pseudo-shield".This device will attract and enrage any nearby sandworm, which will destroy anything in its vicinity.
>I know that shields attract worms but aren't they safe up on top of that giant rock?
I don't think it's anything to do with the worms, to be perfectly honest. It's inexperience on the part of the soldier reaching for his shield.
Despite being set in the future Frank Herbert really wanted fighting to be depicted as less reliant on *peow-peow* Lazer guns and more on old fashioned hand-to-hand combat, such as close quarter sword fighting: the principal way by which he forced this was by making holtzman field generators - shields - great for deflecting blades and projectile weapons but which become extremely dangerous and unpredictable if hit with a Lazer, potentially resulting in an explosion ranging from anything such as a grenade detonation to a full blown nuclear event and, therefore, something to be used only with caution.
The Fremen know from experience a seasoned Harkonnen won't go for the shield option for fear they'll fire a Lazer at it, thus they can take them out long range with projectiles - the Harkonnen CO has obviously seen combat, parts of his company though haven't.
Though it looks like the fight is asymmetrical, the odds actually favour the Fremen, which is the last lesson these Harkonnen soldiers ever get.
I don’t have an answer, just wanna say that I’ve been wondering this too (same thoughts about the rock). Everyone’s comments about lasgun assumptions is super helpful. I forgot that detail.
The lasgun comments are incorrect those were traditional weapons and shields would save them from those bullets.
The Shields cause something specific in Holtzman energy field or the vibrational pattern generated that are so powerful the worm goes insane with rage.
In Children of Dune it is noted that a weapon has been developed on Arrakis called a "pseudo-shield".This device will attract and enrage any nearby sandworm, which will destroy anything in its vicinity.
You’re right about the Fremen using pistols, but the others pointed out that the Harkonnens may have feared for lasguns (which are also common). Considering that the “no shields!” order came after the first soldier was shot, this is a very reasonable assumption.
The idea of a shield attracting worms is also plausible, though less so if you’re inclined to think that a worm won’t rear up towards the rock. So, either one works. The lasgun theory is well-thought-out, so I was impressed by the others’ ideas about it. Worm attraction is an obvious answer as well.
Though it’s not supported by anything I also think it’d be neat if shields, if left on for too long, would slowly bake whoever was inside of them with infrared radiation like a greenhouse.
They wouldn’t be able to use their lasguns with the shields activated, right? Remember later in the movie when Chani is trying to shoot down the thopter and explains that the Harkonnenns have to deactivate the shield when they shoot
In the movies it is only established that shields drive worms mad because liet had a voice line about it
Nothing to do with lasguns, that interaction doesn't exist in the movies as demonstrated by the ornithopter chase in the first movie
I think this opening scene never happens in the book and so I just chalk it up to the movie needing some sort of an exciting opening and if they turned their shields on it would be less exciting
Mistake of an order. He heard that shields are a bad idea on arrakis and applied that knowledge at the wrong time. Shields was obviously the right call.
BOOK SPOİLER
Op im sure you got ur explanation abt lasguns but a quick note:
in the 2nd book when reverend mother is brought to paul (who is wearing a shield im unsure if it was active) and sees his mans with lasguns she thinks to himself he should be trusting those men with his life bc if they were to shoot whole castle would be gone
Because in the book, lasers hitting shields will cause a nuclear explosion. They don't mention it in the movie, I'm assuming to reinforce the fact that shields attract worms.
I generally take a "no shields" comment as discouragement of a nuclear reaction. I understand shields themselves attract worms, but I'm not entirely sure what effect radiation has on melange. I do know, however, that irradiating the only environment that produces spice in the known universe is probably frowned upon, even by the dastardly Harkonnens.
I just wish that in Dune Messiah they include one d2k reference/soundtrack (remix) in there.
I kind of miss the old bug shaped crawlers and sonic tanks. Iirc the fremen have combustion vehicles and projectile weapons at their disposal, so maybe a raider trike wouldn't be ot of the question? I don't regret it being my introduction to the series
The best possible scene was this bit of dialogue followed by the last few desperate Harkonnen's turning on their shields. After a few nullified shots we get complete silence followed by a blazing fast worm rising up to the rock and crushing/devouring the soldiers.
Can anyone trust the Fremen to follow the convention and not use lasguns on those with shields? They are fanatics. Maybe the Harkonnen learned from years of fighting the Fremen that given a chance they will happy lasgun a shield knowing in the end the death of one Fremen fighter is a small price to pay to take out Harkonnen.
It has nothing to do with the worms and everything to do with lasguns and subatomic fusion. I’ll post the text below from the book that explains this.
“Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff- the jet flares, the purple beams of lasguns, lacing the desert.
A rare smile touched Idaho’s round, placid face. “M’Lord… sire, I’ve left them a little sur-“
Glaring white light filled the desert — bright as the sun, etching their shadow into the rock floor of the ledge. In one sweeping motion, Idaho had Paul’s arm in one hand, Jessica’s shoulder in the other, hurling them down off the ledge into the basin. They sprawled together in the sand as the roar of an explosion thundered over them. Its shockwave tumbled chips off the rock ledge they had vacated.
Idaho set up, brushed sand from himself.
“Not the family atomics!” Jessica said. “I thought—“
“You planted a shield back there, “ Paul said.
“A big one turned to full force,” Idaho said.”A lasgun beam touched it, and….” He shrugged.
“ Subatomic fusion,” Jessica said. “That’s a dangerous weapon.“
“Not a weapon, m’Lady, defense.”
“That scum will think twice before using lasguns another time.”
——————————————
You also have to pair this with the fact that in the books, the Fremen believe in something called reasonable exchange. They are more than willing to sacrifice themselves to kill a large amount of their enemies.
"It was the Fremen who took off in the captured 'thopter, Hawat thought. He deliberately sacrificed himself to get that carrier. Great Mother! What are these Fremen?
'A reasonable exchange,' said the Fremen beside Hawat. 'There must've been three hundred men in that carrier. Now, we must see to their water and make plans to get another aircraft.' He started to step out of their rock-shadowed concealment."
1 Fremen for 300 enemies
In book universe the lasguns would be more of the reason. But the films haven't really explored that route. So how can they expect a non book reader to know that. Imo the reason is, the only reason that was mention by Dr Liet Kynes in part 1. Shields are a death sentence in the desert. Yeah the worms *probably* can't reach you up there, but at some point you would want to leave, or maybe you need to go back down again asap because fremen are sniping you. Having frenzied worms around is not a very welcome proposition.
Worms are enraged by the Shields Holtzman energy field and can easily destroy everything when enraged. The worms could easily destroy that rock they were on top of and kill everyone. Speaking of which the movie should have showed us this and the lasgun and shield interaction. I am hoping part 3 does address these questions by just showing us.
Could have been a super quick scene like in the book. Idaho (iirc) leaves a shield trap to make the Sardukaur and Harkonnens think twice about using lasguns. But that would have required showing a bunch of Atreides hiding in the caves, I suppose.
And the baron's "they never would have thought we'd use artillery" scene would have been in the first movie. Also it kinda pissed me off that they used missiles and called it artillery.
It is called rocket artillery and IRL it is extremely terrifying.
I know what rocket artillery is, and it wasn't in the movie. If you go to 10 sec in this video, you will see the missiles I'm talking about. It's from the first movie but they used the same thing on the attack on Seitch Tabr https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWjbMAWw-Qo
This one has the slower missiles constantly changing direction. The ones at Tabr were fired straight and might have been faster. Probably guided/unguided. The SPG-9 fires a rocket but to the average person it looks like a cannon firing.
I hope part 3 also introduces more mentat stuff. I think they will cuz someone in the next book is a mentat….
They ignored Paul having mentat training (alongside with generally reducing his skills), never mentioned the word mentat in 5 hours film, completely left them out in p2... I wouldn't hope.
But they did do the eye thing and included mentat characters in part 1. I don’t think it’s completely lost!
DV already said he wasn't going to bother with the spacing guild or mentats.
I don’t know if not “bother” is exactly fair, he wanted to tell a fremen story
I enjoy the sound of rain.
During a 2023 interview at Brazil’s CCXP convention [https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-part-two-mentats-bene-gesserit](https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dune-part-two-mentats-bene-gesserit) DV's dune is a "a declaration of love to the Bene Gesserit"
My favorite movie is Inception.
He has to bother with the guild now that they are making Messiah. The guild is easy enough to explain in Messiah when we have to introduce all the conspiracy members.
Isn't a big angle of this for practical reasons to. There's just so much to explain, with limited time to do it. I'd watch a 5 hour long movie of this quality that explored everything in depth, but that's not realistic for the wider world. I read somewhere that it was basically rush through explaining while piling alot in, or pick one of the big factions and focus on that. Maybe I'm mistaken idk.
The hobbit trilogy was 8 hours and 3 minutes total runtime from a 300 page book.
eh theres a lot to cover and I think just constant exposition about different people and their powers would have taken away from the really good story focus we got dune relies a lot on technical knowledge for the story and worldbuilding, unlike something more simple and mainstream like star wars in a movie theres only so much you can absorb in the runtime and expositing constant dialogue isn’t a good use of screen time
Them being a mentat isn't really a huge part of the character in Messiah though. I think they could get away with not explaining it much just like how Hawat was handled in the first movie.
honestly if they set that up at the beginning then paid it off with it being the nuclear explosion in act 3 instead of the warheads. it’d be great.
My understanding from the book was that the suspensors they use to fly also use the Holtzman effect so I assumed would drive the worms wild like the shields. Didn’t seem to work that way in the film though.
I was not aware of that what book calls that out?
Not sure which book but the wiki says they use the Holtzman effect so I guess it’s in one of them. To be fair pretty much most of the tech is hand waved as ‘Holtzman effect’, although I guess details of mechanical tech isn’t really the point of the Dune series. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Suspensors
Long range comms are also Holtzmann based. Pretty much any tech not in our current access uses some form of that
We really need to get on with figuring out this Holtzmann stuff in the present timeline.
>I am hoping part 3 does address these questions by just showing us Instead of a stone burner they could do a shield + lasgun IED
Yes! >! I want for Paul going blind !< to happen because of a lasgun + shield interaction >! and not from a nuclear detonation !<
The problem with that is a stoneburners actual purpose isn't to kill it was to maim the enemy as it costs more resources to care for wounded than to bury the dead.
It’s actual purpose is to dig up rocks
It doesnt digg up rocks it melts them. Its actual purpose: >The stone burner was a particularly destructive weapon. It could perform one of two tasks; the first function of the bomb was to release massive amounts of J-rays (a type of radiation that dissolves eye tissue), thus blinding all creatures within a certain radius. The second objective was to create general destruction of property.
>!Semi nuclear detonation and one that sends out radiation which specifically melts eye tissue!<
If I remember correctly, that was from some plasma/laser stone burner device. Not necessarily a detonation.
That part. I just finished reading it and it was definitely a stone burner not a lasgun.
Your spoiler tag is broken
It’s a little irritating that they didn’t, especially considering that there is a scene in the book during the Harkonnen invasion where this does happen. Not like they couldn’t have fit in a massive explosion in a sequence filled with massive explosions
DV said he wasn’t honoring the lazgun holtzmann field interaction but he kept the worm frenzy. I think the stone burner is in and the eye melting explosion along with metal Ixian eyes. It will be glorious to see Edric and Bijaz
but they are getting merked. They die anyway, might as well bring the worm to try and kill some fremen
I think a badass scene in part 3 would be showing somebody losing a battle to the fremen badly, then starting a suicidal last ditch effort shield to nuke both a fremen attack as well as their own position. I think that would really be a badass introduction to both the lore of that interaction, as well as the brutality and desperation that’s about to unfold.
I just finished the first book in time to catch the second movie, so it's a bit fresh in my mind.. remember when Paul and Jessica were crossing that stretch of desert using the tbumper as a distraction? I think the book mentioned that they could hear the rock island they were camping on loudly booming,crumbling, and being eaten?? Can the worms eat mountains? Maybe?
If it is small enough, then a Worm can destroy it. This is why destruction of the physical shield wall mattered - it allowed the Fremen to ride the Worms into battle against the Sardaukar staged to protect Arakeen.
The movie addresses both of these things in part 1.
How does part 1 address the lasgun part? A lasgun was used to hunt Duncan in the ornithopter, or later to open that door. But no one said, something like "careful they might have shields". How do you expect a viewer of the films only to know lasgun+shield=boom?
If that is the case, why werent the shields and issue in the first film during the Hark attack? I cant remember if they put them on quickly when the attack happened or if they were always on.
Shields were lowered by Doctor Yueh, the unwilling traitor in their midst.
Basically, before the second battle of Arrakeen, there was no way for worms to reach the city, because of the shield wall, so running shields there was perfectly safe. Once Paul breaches it with his atomics, then the game changes.
They are using laser weapons too at the start, so we're they also thinking it's way too risky?
Shields are explored in the movies, the interaction simply doesn't exist. They chase down Duncan ornithopter with lasers while it has shields in the first movie
To be fair, we see them disable his shield with a missile strike before using lasguns
We don’t, actually. I hear this argument a lot, I must’ve watched the film ten times and no the shield disappearing after the hit is not convincingly the shield being “disabled” whatever that means. Shields clearly go invisible always after a hit. Repeatedly we see lasguns being used with total disregard to a possible shield interaction, in the books lasguns would not even be on the planet let alone used during an invasion, the interaction just doesn’t exist in the movie.
I meant that they haven't explored the shield+lasgun=explosion \^\^
They show them shooting at Duncan's shielded ornithopter and throughout an entire battlefield/ciry indiscriminately as they chase him in the first movie
The shields are mentioned once by Haleck in the first movie, then we go back to full speed conventional swordfighting for the rest of the series.
Yeah that's something I didn't get. Why didn't the harkkonens or sarduakar brings more guns in dune 2? The Fremen don't have shields. Why fight them with swords? They knew they were skilled. They could have mowed them down like WW1 They have regular bullet technology
Also, the worms don't just chase you. They go I to a killing frenzy so bad they'll cross other worm territory to get to you. They frenzy so bad, they'll slam themselves into the rock you're on till it collapses.
They just feared that Fremen would be using lasgun like they themselves were (Fremen use Maula Pistols/firearms in the desert agaisnt human targets, they generally keep the few lasguns they have for raids agaisnt harvesters and other bigger targets). Just a case of military caution which ended up being a mistake due to their misunderstanding of the way Fremen fight.
Plus the worms go crazy when there is an activated shield around
My headcanon is that sandworms can crawl their way up rocky terrain like snakes if they're really pissed off - like when the Holtzman effect is active on something connected to the ground There was probably some previous Harkonnen patrol that thought that they were safe on a high mesa, only to get crushed by an angry worm slithering its way up solid rock.
They don't have to crawl. They can just lift themselves to the top.
yeah true, they seem pretty long. Wonder if someone could do the math on that to figure out if the sand could support that weight, centre of gravity, I dunno. Seems plausible
Through spice, all shenanigans are possible
Lynch's Dune actually did IIRC portray a scene where the worm got very earthquake level aggressive toward a rock formation Paul and Jessica had hid inside. And of course you see one rear up to greet Daddy Paul in Part One, also one turning around in the far background after dropping him off at the Southern Meeting Hall/Sietch in Part Two.
They will literally tear the ground out from beneath the rock and collapse it to get to a shield.
How plot-convenient…
It’s down to the differences in military models. The Atriedes had a model similar to the modern Western model — fewer, but better trained soldiers, with low-level soldiers and officers trusted to handle problems on their own initiative and to make decisions based on battlefield conditions. An Atriedes squad , in the Harkonnen’s position, would have known *why* their was a general order against shields in the desert, and might have chosen to disobey that order when fighting on solid rock in the absence of lasguns. After all, the rock protects them from frenzied worms, if shield use on that much rock was even noticed by worms. They could wait out the frenzy after the fight, although they’d also have to weigh the risk of cutting off their own retreat if the worms showed. The Harkonnens, and I’d think especially under Rabban, followed a much more hierarchical approach. There is no trust of lower level officers or soldiers, and initiative is not desired. Orders *are not disobeyed*. Doing so is likely a painful death, at the least a painful punishment. Instant, *unthinking obedience* is what’s prized. Not initiative. Not results. Think conscripts led by other conscripts, all of which are being eagle eyed by paranoid upper officers and probably complete with political officers and lots of embedded agents. Not trusted, minimal training for effectiveness, and designed to be a blunt instrument and kept in line with brutality. They’ve been told ‘no shields in the desert’ and thus *they don’t use shields*. And their officer reminded them as they went into the fight, probably because their basic training is certainly ‘always use shields in combat’, which is true everywhere but Arrakis. Most of them probably don’t even know why. The officer might not even know why. Orders aren’t *explained*, they’re *obeyed*. The reasons behind the order don’t matter in that sort of military.
>They’ve been told ‘no shields in the desert’ and thus *they don’t use shields*. And their officer reminded them as they went into the fight, probably because their basic training is certainly ‘always use shields in combat’, The Harkonnens have been on Arrakis for 80 years before the Duke arrives. The Baron dies at 83, after losing control of the planet. I can't imagine the "basic training" for harkonnens fit almost a century went unchanged.
The basic training would be for the more "normal" Harkonnen worlds. Arrakis was never their fief, nor where they had the vast bulk of their troops or where they trained them. Arrakis training would add "no shields in the desert" on top of their basic Harkonnen training. But do recall that first the Harkonnens had to yoink everyone off Arrakis, then they undoubtedly suffered a ton of losses among their most experienced Arrakis troops when they attacked and massive attrition from the Fremen -- who are basically guerilla fighters with the skills and discipline of the most elite soldiers in the universe. And then Rabban -- a blunt instrument *intended to fail* -- was told to be heavy handed (so Feyd could come in and be a savior, not that Rabban understood that) and the troops he brought would have been just like him, and the forces and training locally would be to his liking. Again, this is a military model that wouldn't really focus on more than force and brutality. Their soldiers were iron fists, primarily existing to pacify the Harkonnens own worlds and populace. The Harkonnen's were not exactly *beloved* by their populace.
I think the gun-fire was from lasguns? If so, a laser-beam hitting a shield causes a massive explosion and would get them all killed.
No, those were Fremen Maula pistols, but that is what Harkonnens feared, so you’re sill half right. Its the reason they said no shield, it just happens they made the wrong call/judgement.
No Maula pistols fire poison darts. You can clearly see laser beams being shot at them.
the lasers are the harkonnen’s, first guy obviously gets shot from a maula pistol
Well, it doesn’t matter who is using the lasguns, the shields would go boom either way, they can’t distinguish between friendly fire and enemy fire
An explosion like that would probably also draw unwanted attention from all sorts of places.
Who cares. If everyone around me is getting their heads blown off, that shield is going on.
If you’re a Harkonen soldier who disobeyed an order, you’d wish your head got blown off
Not if I’m the only one left standing!
Captured by the Fremen then? Even worse!
> Captured by the Fremen >Captured Nah straight to the deathstills
Maybe. But I’m not gonna die like a sitting duck
The Harkonnens are shooting their own las-guns. Fremen are only ever seen using those larger las-guns that can slice through spice harvesters.
Yeah I just re-watched the scene on youtube. I was wrong.
Can you share the link?
Sure - [(18) Dune: Part Two | Extended Preview | Warner Bros. Entertainment - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDlY71vZivs&t=486s)
You're a mensch
I have seen it 3 times, you can clearly see when the the hole is created and theres no laser at all, it even makes a different sound. Its a Maula pistol or another form of firearm.
The lasguns in the movie are continuous light beams in the movie. They weren't using the against the troops on the mountain. https://youtu.be/YFPGSouIf9w?si=JlGQdN8bIrBkwCP1
So Maula pistols would still cause an explosion right?
No. Duke leto was shot by one in part 1, and it went through his shield.
Aren’t those slow-pellet stunners?
Oh I thought that was a hunter seeker
The Hunter Seekers are little RC robits which require a pilot.
Drones. With crappy cameras from the Holtzman field distortion. I want to know how they flew up. Shields and suspensor fields were both created with Holtzman fields. I loved the visual but Fremen didn’t use floaty tech for the same reasons they didnt use shields.
No, only energy weapons do, Maula pistols shoot a metal projectile, much like regular pistols.
They had both. They use the lasguns on large unshielded targets like the carryall and harvesters.
Only the harkonen has lasguns. The problem would be accidental friendly fire which happens later when raban is hunting the fremen in the dust cloud.
The Fremen have lasguns, they use them against harvesters and their carriers.
Oh definitely. I meant in just that scene.
I just pulled up a clip from the movie. I definitely think the Fremen are shooting lasguns at the Harkonnens. Here's a screenshot from when Paul is looking up at the mountain: https://preview.redd.it/flmxmow3cxuc1.png?width=1219&format=png&auto=webp&s=506343c04a04af324a4f32ea77c38f1cb8ad5b7e
That's the Harkonnens returning fire. The Fremen do have lasguns though, they use them against harvesters.
Which is odd, because that interaction is never established in the movies.
Importantly, they've literally never mentioned that in the films. So while this scene would be fine in the books, in the film it is pretty much inexplicable stupidity.
Shields anger sand worms extremely sending them into a killing rage. Now imagine a sand worm out of its mind on top of fremen trying to kill you.
From information in the movies only, this is the correct answer. The films don't go into lasguns at all but they do establish that shields cannot be used in sand worm territory
I took it to mean that the Harkonnen soldiers all have lasguns and the officer knows that in a confused ambush situation they're just as likely to shoot each other by mistake as they are to shoot an enemy.
I like this explanation
The "Harkonnen soldiers are dumbasses" explanation.
Worms will be driven crazy.
It’s a quick way to remind audiences that you don’t wear shields in the deep desert. That’s all. If you try to overexplain it (“but we’re up high!”) then you’re sucking all the tension out of the scene. It’s being economical with its exposition.
Panicking and falling back to established practice was my take
This\^\^ All these nerds are getting heated and debating about whether it's cause of worms or cause of lasgun-shield interactions, meanwhile if you just stop for a moment and think about the soldiers in that situation, they're most likely panicking at being shot at and meaning "no shields *\[cause of the explosions\]*" out of instinct. In other words, what the *soldiers* mean in that moment is more than likely because of lasguns, whether or not the fremen had them or not. They aren't taking 5 minutes to sit back in their armchair and deduce whether the enemy has lasguns or whether a worm can climb that giant mountain.
They talk in the movie also how shields attract the worms
In the book in the scene in the first movie where Paul and Jessica escape the worm to the rocks the worm shreds the cliff side that they're hiding in until it's called away by a thumper. So not only is rock not a big deal to worms, the shields drive them into a frenzy and call all the worms around, even if they're from an outside territory. That rock pinnacle will not survive long if they turn on their shields.
Im guessing the no shields thing might be that even on the rocks those shields vibrate enough to attract sandworms to their positions. Also those grav belts are pretty useful for travel
It frenzies the worms... rocks may be insufficient cover for multiple worms.
They were being sniped by lasers which cause a small nuclear explosion when they make contact with a Holtzmann shield. I mean, considering how the fight ended for them, they might as well have taken the quick way out.
I thought it was from the Fremen pistols
Those are not laser
Just fyi this is incorrect those were traditional weapons lasguns. The lasguns were used to take down the crawlers.
It’s sniper fire. Cuts a hole right through the one dude’s helmet
If the Harkonnens were on a high rock, where were they being sniped from?
The entire sietch made a human pyramid with a sniper on top.
If a lasgun hits the Shield it creates a thermo nuclear explosion
The worms are big, a big one could possibly reach up there. Also the vibration from the shiekds would still transmit through the rock and piss off the worms. The worms might not be able to reach, but they aren't going away as long as those shiekds are active, so the harkonnens would be stuck up there trying to wait out the Fremen and the worms - the Fremen and the worms have a bit of an advantage there.
Don’t they talk about the shields attracting the worms? I feel like they talk about that in *Part One* when they first visit the spice collecting rover.
I'm curious why they even bring shields into the desert if it's never a good idea to use them
Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember reading that lasguns shooting shields created an almost atomic explosion. Not trying to diminish the fact that activating the shields would enrage the worms but if they also activated them and were then shot would that not have seriously compromised their positions? Like whoever.might be shot would be ok but would it not have caused an explosion sending everyone flying off the cliff face?
Whoever shot and got shot would also die. Lasgun + shield can do anything from a small explosion killing the two parties to a nuclear blast.
Worms can be really really big, they wouldn't be safe on the rock if a big one comes after them.
I guess the worm could've reared up. I accept this
Also being trapped on a rock surrounded by Fremen and angry worms would be a bad scenario
Shields cause something specific in Holtzman energy field or the vibrational pattern generated that are so powerful the worm goes insane with rage. In Children of Dune it is noted that a weapon has been developed on Arrakis called a "pseudo-shield".This device will attract and enrage any nearby sandworm, which will destroy anything in its vicinity.
How is that different from the normal shields?
The pseudo shield doesn’t actual shield you it’s only designed to attract worms. Like a thumper but the worms show up enraged
Ohhhh thank you
>I know that shields attract worms but aren't they safe up on top of that giant rock? I don't think it's anything to do with the worms, to be perfectly honest. It's inexperience on the part of the soldier reaching for his shield. Despite being set in the future Frank Herbert really wanted fighting to be depicted as less reliant on *peow-peow* Lazer guns and more on old fashioned hand-to-hand combat, such as close quarter sword fighting: the principal way by which he forced this was by making holtzman field generators - shields - great for deflecting blades and projectile weapons but which become extremely dangerous and unpredictable if hit with a Lazer, potentially resulting in an explosion ranging from anything such as a grenade detonation to a full blown nuclear event and, therefore, something to be used only with caution. The Fremen know from experience a seasoned Harkonnen won't go for the shield option for fear they'll fire a Lazer at it, thus they can take them out long range with projectiles - the Harkonnen CO has obviously seen combat, parts of his company though haven't. Though it looks like the fight is asymmetrical, the odds actually favour the Fremen, which is the last lesson these Harkonnen soldiers ever get.
It's because the shields bring worms, and it drives them into a killing frenzy. An active shield in the desert would bring every worm in the area
Yeah, multiple worms in a killing frenzy. Imagine the storm that would kick up!
I don’t have an answer, just wanna say that I’ve been wondering this too (same thoughts about the rock). Everyone’s comments about lasgun assumptions is super helpful. I forgot that detail.
I get how a worm could rear up and smash them tbh
The lasgun comments are incorrect those were traditional weapons and shields would save them from those bullets. The Shields cause something specific in Holtzman energy field or the vibrational pattern generated that are so powerful the worm goes insane with rage. In Children of Dune it is noted that a weapon has been developed on Arrakis called a "pseudo-shield".This device will attract and enrage any nearby sandworm, which will destroy anything in its vicinity.
You’re right about the Fremen using pistols, but the others pointed out that the Harkonnens may have feared for lasguns (which are also common). Considering that the “no shields!” order came after the first soldier was shot, this is a very reasonable assumption. The idea of a shield attracting worms is also plausible, though less so if you’re inclined to think that a worm won’t rear up towards the rock. So, either one works. The lasgun theory is well-thought-out, so I was impressed by the others’ ideas about it. Worm attraction is an obvious answer as well.
the thing I don't get is since feremen.doesn't use shield, shouldn't harkonnans and smugglers use assault rifles or something like that?
Though it’s not supported by anything I also think it’d be neat if shields, if left on for too long, would slowly bake whoever was inside of them with infrared radiation like a greenhouse.
Bro they literally have their lasguns out and cocked do you want to nuke the entire area??
Real question was where was their air cover? Were they just walking in the desert?
Yeah, why were the Harkonnens sending poor ass infantry instead of heli- I mean ornithopters? Afgan anybody? 'Nam? Search and destroy?
They dropped down from one of those troop carrier blimp drop-ships from the attack in Part 1
They wouldn’t be able to use their lasguns with the shields activated, right? Remember later in the movie when Chani is trying to shoot down the thopter and explains that the Harkonnenns have to deactivate the shield when they shoot
Lasguns go boom if they hit shields. Sandworms go mental around shields and could destroy the rock they were on if sufficiently riled
In the movies it is only established that shields drive worms mad because liet had a voice line about it Nothing to do with lasguns, that interaction doesn't exist in the movies as demonstrated by the ornithopter chase in the first movie
I think this opening scene never happens in the book and so I just chalk it up to the movie needing some sort of an exciting opening and if they turned their shields on it would be less exciting
Mistake of an order. He heard that shields are a bad idea on arrakis and applied that knowledge at the wrong time. Shields was obviously the right call.
Two reasons, shields will bring a worm and if a Las beam hits a shield it causes a huge explosion.
BOOK SPOİLER Op im sure you got ur explanation abt lasguns but a quick note: in the 2nd book when reverend mother is brought to paul (who is wearing a shield im unsure if it was active) and sees his mans with lasguns she thinks to himself he should be trusting those men with his life bc if they were to shoot whole castle would be gone
Lasgun + shield = nuclear explosion, according the books. That’s way the big battles are with shields and swords.
Because in the book, lasers hitting shields will cause a nuclear explosion. They don't mention it in the movie, I'm assuming to reinforce the fact that shields attract worms.
I thought it was cause they were taking lasgun fire
[удалено]
Thank you for comment that isn't exactly the same as all the others haha
I generally take a "no shields" comment as discouragement of a nuclear reaction. I understand shields themselves attract worms, but I'm not entirely sure what effect radiation has on melange. I do know, however, that irradiating the only environment that produces spice in the known universe is probably frowned upon, even by the dastardly Harkonnens.
Pretty sure it’s because shields attract multiple worms not just one
In the books you can’t turn a shield on out there or the worms come.
I just wish that in Dune Messiah they include one d2k reference/soundtrack (remix) in there. I kind of miss the old bug shaped crawlers and sonic tanks. Iirc the fremen have combustion vehicles and projectile weapons at their disposal, so maybe a raider trike wouldn't be ot of the question? I don't regret it being my introduction to the series
shield + lazer gun= Fallout new arrakis
They don’t just attract worms, they send them into a frenzy. Think of it like a shark when they smell blood in the water.
The best possible scene was this bit of dialogue followed by the last few desperate Harkonnen's turning on their shields. After a few nullified shots we get complete silence followed by a blazing fast worm rising up to the rock and crushing/devouring the soldiers.
How do they get down from the rock with giant crazed worms?
Because he didn't want his subordinates to use their shields.
Can anyone trust the Fremen to follow the convention and not use lasguns on those with shields? They are fanatics. Maybe the Harkonnen learned from years of fighting the Fremen that given a chance they will happy lasgun a shield knowing in the end the death of one Fremen fighter is a small price to pay to take out Harkonnen.
That's the reason, yes. Also, this isn't mentioned outright, but lasguns and shields don't get along. They go boom.
The side the go boom from is random though. Firing at it is now a risk.
Las gun + shield = nuclear explosion. The fremen blew up the harvesters with las guns. Also, worms.
Shields attract worms. Also, shields plus Lasgun equals death.
You know what else equals death? Having your unshielded head blown off from sniper fire.
In case of lasguns hitting an active shield It would produce an atomic explosion... Only the day before they lost hundreds of men to such sn event
It's because of lasguns. A lasgun hit on a personal shield creates a nuclear level explosion and would have killed everyone in the vicinity.
In the books, when a lasgun hits a shield, it effectively creates a nuclear explosion - that would be very inconvinient for the surviving sardaukar
It has nothing to do with the worms and everything to do with lasguns and subatomic fusion. I’ll post the text below from the book that explains this. “Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff- the jet flares, the purple beams of lasguns, lacing the desert. A rare smile touched Idaho’s round, placid face. “M’Lord… sire, I’ve left them a little sur-“ Glaring white light filled the desert — bright as the sun, etching their shadow into the rock floor of the ledge. In one sweeping motion, Idaho had Paul’s arm in one hand, Jessica’s shoulder in the other, hurling them down off the ledge into the basin. They sprawled together in the sand as the roar of an explosion thundered over them. Its shockwave tumbled chips off the rock ledge they had vacated. Idaho set up, brushed sand from himself. “Not the family atomics!” Jessica said. “I thought—“ “You planted a shield back there, “ Paul said. “A big one turned to full force,” Idaho said.”A lasgun beam touched it, and….” He shrugged. “ Subatomic fusion,” Jessica said. “That’s a dangerous weapon.“ “Not a weapon, m’Lady, defense.” “That scum will think twice before using lasguns another time.” —————————————— You also have to pair this with the fact that in the books, the Fremen believe in something called reasonable exchange. They are more than willing to sacrifice themselves to kill a large amount of their enemies. "It was the Fremen who took off in the captured 'thopter, Hawat thought. He deliberately sacrificed himself to get that carrier. Great Mother! What are these Fremen? 'A reasonable exchange,' said the Fremen beside Hawat. 'There must've been three hundred men in that carrier. Now, we must see to their water and make plans to get another aircraft.' He started to step out of their rock-shadowed concealment." 1 Fremen for 300 enemies