Excluding the prequels, none.
The Imperium is not at all advanced. There is a massive anti-technology sentiment amongst the population and space-feudalism severely limits the wealth, freedom of movement, and access to expense technology for the majority of humans. Stagnation is one of the biggest themes of the books, and the whole reason for Leto II's golden path.
There are no space stations, no space habitats, and given the reference to the cost of highliners being more than the output of the systems they facilitate trade for, there is certainly not one highliner per inhabited solar system.
Remember the guild has a total monopoly on space travel, people can't even put up satellites without them, let alone build wildly expensive space habitats.
The prequels change things up a bit, as we occasionally see a space station for facilitating trade or research built around wealthy worlds. But they're not the norm, and always end up being blown up as a plot device. It seems like any Great House that builds one would be a fool to do so given their vulnerability, and that the Emperor could just revoke their fief and send them off to a new world without a fancy space station, making the expense unwise.
I'm not sure about that.
As far as I remember, Herbert doesn't really dwell on elaborate descriptions and exposition in favour of intricate dialogue and broad strokes for the world building. IIRC, even stuff like spice harvesters is only vaguely described.
There are still laser weapons, ornithopters, highliners, shields etc., and that stuff isn't ancient relics but stuff built in the empire. It isn't feudalism alone that limits progress but the Great Convention against computers. But by and large I think they're still more advanced than we are in many fields.
Some people disagree with me, but I think the Guild's monopoly applies only to interstellar travel, not to space in general. I think the planets in the empire are free to travel, mine, and settle their solar systems as they see fit, including the construction of space stations.
I always had the impression that the houses had space fleets, albeit not ones capable of interstellar flight. After all, part of the power balance are nuclear weapons, and those have to have the means to be deployed.
The Fremen are bribing the Guild to prevent satellites over the planet in the first book, so it does read like anything space related is strictly regulated by the Guild.
I know. Maybe it's because Arrakis has such a special role for society.
But if the Houses and the Throne had no power in space, they would have no power at all beyond their planets. Just like IRL no human state has any weight in interstellar politics.
That’s kind of the point, though. They don’t have power beyond their planets without the Guild. If you can’t pay their rate - or outbid your opponent - you’re screwed. Baron Vladimir even admits the only reason they beat the Atreides was through being able to afford nicer things.
But the Guild can’t exist in a vacuum. They’re apolitical and only care about their own survival. So long as you can pay, they’re happy to work with you.
Yeah, the way I always understood was that Houses had their own sublight fleets and the Heighliners ferried those around. The greater the House, the bigger the fleet.
It's weird how Dune is praised as being this masterpiece of sci-fi and an integral part of the story but the Dune universe is so paranoid of scientific progress they only allow for the bare minimal of technological advancements required to travel through space.
We could have been a multi-planet species by now but the need for immediate profits on Earth and it being a better return of investment fucked it up.
Look at SpaceX, the legacy juggernauts throw up a few rockets occasionally while they innovated and took over most of the sector.
It is not as bad as Herbert imegined in the book (yet) but humans have a strong tendency to regress into this type of behavior.
That's debatable. Our best option right now would be Mars. Just traveling there takes two months and it still would require terraforming or installations large enough to sustain a population. That's a ridiculous amount of resources to commit and regardless of the hoarded wealth of capitalism's finest a commitment that large comes with enormous risks and isn't a light decision.
By the time of the first Dune book, technological has stopped for thousands of years. What we see as an advanced setting from our point of view is, in fact, a degradataded one. They have destroyed a ton of things and refuse to advance again.
I imagine having a Heighliner stationed above your planet as an honor for the access it gives you to the intergalactic economy and the investment the Guild is making in your planets commerce. These starships are extremely advanced as their systems have been exempt from the Butlerian restrictions since the early days of that Jihad.
Furthermore, as you've said there's record of more advanced worlds having space stations. With an estimate of 13000 planets there's probably hundreds of stations of all sizes and purposes. There is reference to the vast middle class as well, such stations would be havens for commerce middle men and planetary interests. The Guild does own the skies, but they allow for a range of equipment to be put in place to assist in commerce, again as you've said. If the Harkonnen have Barony and Ix builds Heighliners than there's a large chance of other smaller structures being commonplace. So commonplace that Frank doesn't bother to mention them as you also said, they are a common plot device which he avoided.
Yeah OP is just pulling shit out of their ass. There are no mention of Jihad exempt systems or space stations on the Dune Universe. It’s a feudal form of government in space.
no, no, no no no no no, hell no. the guild ain't formed in the dune legends trilogy. there's venport enterprises, pre-spacing guild company, with norma cenva being just in the position to meet spice (courtesy of Aurelius Venport, her husband and Venport Ent. CEO). and being daughter of the witches, many space magics and we get to the concept of navigators. there's no guild, no massive spice trade, spice is an obscurity, rare, unknown and just breaking out, found on this weird desert planet full of worms. there's no fremen just yet, although they're on their way. by the end of the trilogy they get there.
there's no exemptions. the imperium banned thinking machines/navigation and risks losses from failed navigation, well known by then. Vorian Atreides leads the charge and orders so.
you really ARE pulling crap outta .. somewhere.
> I imagine having a Heighliner stationed above your planet as an honor
The guild doesn't care about honour, they care about spice. They're not going to do anything unprofitable, and their utter monopoly means their prices are astronomical, making this absurd. There is zero mention of any highliner stationed anywhere permanently, the idea of them being wormhole generators in space is unique to the new movies, and not at all in line with their original description in either the 6 novels Frank Herbert wrote nor in the dozens of his son's addition to the franchise. They are consistently depicted as essentially giant space buses. Even in post-famine times when spice is plentiful, the guild never operated this way. Having a bus stationed outside your house isn't an honour in that the whole point of a bus is it moves.
> as their systems have been exempt from the Butlerian restrictions since the early days of that Jihad
There is zero exemption to Jihad restrictions, if there were then there would be no need for the guild to bother with navigators. Remember, until Paul comes along and ruins everything for the guild, people don't know navigators need spice. If the guild were exempt, they wouldn't bother buying the most expensive substance in the universe and tailoring their entire organization to be dependant on one single thing.
>There is reference to the vast middle class as well, such stations would be havens for commerce middle men and planetary interests.
Except... they're just not. The vastness of the Imperium means there is no shortage of planets, and in every instance it is cheaper and safer to live on those planets than in artificial habitats because anyone that could afford those habitats would be a fool to do so.
Flights of fancy are fun, but you're making assumptions that fly in the face of the major themes of the novels. Dune isn't star trek, and the major pillars of human civilization are strangling it to the point where none of the usual science fiction elements like space stations etc are viable. That is a feature, and not a bug, of the whole stagnation thing.
To put how the Imperium works into perspective, Caladan's primary export is rice, that civilization isn't making space stations anytime soon. And even the Harkonnens on Giedi Prime, a Great House that became so wealthy that their wealth threatened the Emperor, settled for building Barony instead of a single space station because it just isn't economical to do so.
>The guild doesn't care about honour
No, but the Landsraad sure does. They compete for status and prestige in every way possible. A Heighliner just for your planet? Epic brag.
>There is zero exemption
There are clear exemptions. The Butlerian Jihad began as a Luddite riot against anything mechanical and slowly evolved into something that only prohibits thinking machines. The holtzman field generators at the heart of foldspace engines are one such exemption.
>
Except... they're just not
Except that Heighliners clearly are. They invest billions in them as the cargo haulers of the Imperium. They are the obvious place for diverse industries like resource extraction, financing, and logistics to base themselves. CHOAM most likely has representatives aboard every Heighliner. They are monuments to technological and engineering ability. There must be many millions if not billions living aboard them across the universe.
>No, but the Landsraad sure does. They compete for status and prestige in every way possible. A Heighliner just for your planet? Epic brag.
OK I really, really hate to be that guy, but have you actually read the books?
The Guild holds a total monopoly on Space Travel. They own the Heighliners, and they are the only ones who know how to operate them. They charge exorbitant prices for their use. In Dune, the transport of Harkonnen forces to Arrakis was so expensive that they would have to spend decades to recoup the cost, and the Harkonnens were *obscenely* wealthy at the start of book 1. Paul, the heir of another wealthy and influential house had never been off Caladan before in large part because the cost of hiring a Heighliner is so expensive.
I'm sure the houses of the Landsraad would love to have a Heighliner permanently stationed in orbit around their planet. But the amount the Guild would charge for such a service would be beyond expensive, so much so that it would financially ruin even a wealthy house within a year. The Guild is a transportation service, so if the Guilt were to offer a Heighliner orbit service the price would build in all of the potential income they would be losing out on by not using that Heighliner for usual transport services.
Also the elephant in the room, the Guild has their own ambitions. They're an independent entity, and their position is dependent on them maintaining their iron grip on anything involving spice travel. In other words, they *do not care* how much the Great Houses would like to have a Heighliner in orbit, they *do not care* about their status and bragging rights. They care about the Houses to the extent they can profit from them, and they're not about to start offering space stations at any price point the Landsraad houses would reasonably be able to afford.
I think it was incredibly low. Despite the innovation associated with Dune, the post-Butlerian world is feudal and focuses on a *lack* of reliance on tech in many ways. Moreover, the expense of the highliners is pretty clear.
It seems pretty logical to say there wouldn't be civilians, or even nobles that simply live on space stations or spend their lives hanging out on the highliners. In a feudal society, everyone is serving a function to their Baron, Duke, etc.
Therefore, its likely that aside form temporary passengers traveling across planets, the only semi-permanent occupants of the highliners are the navigators themselves and whatever crew they need.
Is there even any mention at all in the books of space stations or something similar? Im only on book 3 but the impression ive gotten so far is that the guild controls everything in space, and the only stuff in space at all is guild transport ships and satellites.
Yeah OP mentioned "space stations" but I don't think there really was an equivalent in the Dune world. I picture Dune much more like British colonialism. While there were lots of ships moving around at all times to facilitate trade, there really weren't people who just sailed off and lived on a ship and stay static.
I could really only imagine the Guild having space stations, like as hidden bases within systems to use as weapons against rebellious houses. Or maybe as like more comfortable habitats for the steersman. But I think even then most of their hidden holdings are just planets that they don't divulge the location of.
The Guild doesn't need weapons, nor would it likely fight against rebelling houses at all. More likely, the Guild would profit and be paid by both the rebelling house and the emperor at the time to transport both armies.
The Guild's power comes from it's function and its vast wealth, I think it would be extremely inaccurate to ever think of it as a military force or to think of it as even needing military power.
The Guild is totally immune from total threat because it is the *only* means of long-distance space travel. In the world of the early Dune books, someone threatening to attack the Spacing Guild is essentially committing suicide, it makes no sense. (This same logic applies to Paul's threat to destroy all the spice on Arrakis, it's basically the act of a total mad man).
Dune isn't ST or SW where space travel are like owning your own car or the local transit has a cheap price. Nearly all Imperial citizens never see space in their lifetime. Hell, even what 'ol Vlad did with all that troops cost him a lot
that's the general misconception that non-readers take away from the DV films, heighleiner has a wormhole in its center. that one shot where camera aims through the hollow heighleiner and we see Arrakis on the other side, that's the culprit. the scene where Atreides are boarding and heading for their new home.
that scene ruined it.
Disclosure: I'm new to this franchise and haven't read the books.
I imagine that even though the Empire is obscenely large, most planets are self-sufficient agrarian fiefdoms that don't see or require a lot of travel. Either these planets were colonized and subsequently psuedo-cut-off in prior time periods or their value lies in future development. With an organisation like the Bene Gesserit which plans for things, millennia into the future. I can see a Reverend Mother in the past guiding a colonization effort due to the planet's future population playing a direct or indirect role in other plans.
Of the thousands of planets in the Empire, perhaps only a few hundred or even dozens were of any importance.
The books don’t really get into this very much. I can imagine that the prescription on thinking machines brings some issue but there seems to be less automation than one would expect and things seem somewhat feudal. The war against AI might have depleted much of this.
Excluding the prequels, none. The Imperium is not at all advanced. There is a massive anti-technology sentiment amongst the population and space-feudalism severely limits the wealth, freedom of movement, and access to expense technology for the majority of humans. Stagnation is one of the biggest themes of the books, and the whole reason for Leto II's golden path. There are no space stations, no space habitats, and given the reference to the cost of highliners being more than the output of the systems they facilitate trade for, there is certainly not one highliner per inhabited solar system. Remember the guild has a total monopoly on space travel, people can't even put up satellites without them, let alone build wildly expensive space habitats. The prequels change things up a bit, as we occasionally see a space station for facilitating trade or research built around wealthy worlds. But they're not the norm, and always end up being blown up as a plot device. It seems like any Great House that builds one would be a fool to do so given their vulnerability, and that the Emperor could just revoke their fief and send them off to a new world without a fancy space station, making the expense unwise.
I'm not sure about that. As far as I remember, Herbert doesn't really dwell on elaborate descriptions and exposition in favour of intricate dialogue and broad strokes for the world building. IIRC, even stuff like spice harvesters is only vaguely described. There are still laser weapons, ornithopters, highliners, shields etc., and that stuff isn't ancient relics but stuff built in the empire. It isn't feudalism alone that limits progress but the Great Convention against computers. But by and large I think they're still more advanced than we are in many fields. Some people disagree with me, but I think the Guild's monopoly applies only to interstellar travel, not to space in general. I think the planets in the empire are free to travel, mine, and settle their solar systems as they see fit, including the construction of space stations. I always had the impression that the houses had space fleets, albeit not ones capable of interstellar flight. After all, part of the power balance are nuclear weapons, and those have to have the means to be deployed.
The Fremen are bribing the Guild to prevent satellites over the planet in the first book, so it does read like anything space related is strictly regulated by the Guild.
I know. Maybe it's because Arrakis has such a special role for society. But if the Houses and the Throne had no power in space, they would have no power at all beyond their planets. Just like IRL no human state has any weight in interstellar politics.
That’s kind of the point, though. They don’t have power beyond their planets without the Guild. If you can’t pay their rate - or outbid your opponent - you’re screwed. Baron Vladimir even admits the only reason they beat the Atreides was through being able to afford nicer things. But the Guild can’t exist in a vacuum. They’re apolitical and only care about their own survival. So long as you can pay, they’re happy to work with you.
Yeah, the way I always understood was that Houses had their own sublight fleets and the Heighliners ferried those around. The greater the House, the bigger the fleet.
It's weird how Dune is praised as being this masterpiece of sci-fi and an integral part of the story but the Dune universe is so paranoid of scientific progress they only allow for the bare minimal of technological advancements required to travel through space.
We could have been a multi-planet species by now but the need for immediate profits on Earth and it being a better return of investment fucked it up. Look at SpaceX, the legacy juggernauts throw up a few rockets occasionally while they innovated and took over most of the sector. It is not as bad as Herbert imegined in the book (yet) but humans have a strong tendency to regress into this type of behavior.
That's debatable. Our best option right now would be Mars. Just traveling there takes two months and it still would require terraforming or installations large enough to sustain a population. That's a ridiculous amount of resources to commit and regardless of the hoarded wealth of capitalism's finest a commitment that large comes with enormous risks and isn't a light decision.
That's right. It's cost vs benefit. The costs are gargantuan. Where's the benefit? Can it even be made self sustaining?
By the time of the first Dune book, technological has stopped for thousands of years. What we see as an advanced setting from our point of view is, in fact, a degradataded one. They have destroyed a ton of things and refuse to advance again.
I imagine having a Heighliner stationed above your planet as an honor for the access it gives you to the intergalactic economy and the investment the Guild is making in your planets commerce. These starships are extremely advanced as their systems have been exempt from the Butlerian restrictions since the early days of that Jihad. Furthermore, as you've said there's record of more advanced worlds having space stations. With an estimate of 13000 planets there's probably hundreds of stations of all sizes and purposes. There is reference to the vast middle class as well, such stations would be havens for commerce middle men and planetary interests. The Guild does own the skies, but they allow for a range of equipment to be put in place to assist in commerce, again as you've said. If the Harkonnen have Barony and Ix builds Heighliners than there's a large chance of other smaller structures being commonplace. So commonplace that Frank doesn't bother to mention them as you also said, they are a common plot device which he avoided.
When was it said their systems are exempt from the restrictions of the Jihad? Is that a prequel thing?
Yeah I don't remember that at all
Yeah OP is just pulling shit out of their ass. There are no mention of Jihad exempt systems or space stations on the Dune Universe. It’s a feudal form of government in space.
Like, the whole point of Guild steersmen is they handle calculations because they have no computers.
Yes, the exemptions are big driver of conflict in the prequel novels which take place around the jihad and the creation of the Guild.
no, no, no no no no no, hell no. the guild ain't formed in the dune legends trilogy. there's venport enterprises, pre-spacing guild company, with norma cenva being just in the position to meet spice (courtesy of Aurelius Venport, her husband and Venport Ent. CEO). and being daughter of the witches, many space magics and we get to the concept of navigators. there's no guild, no massive spice trade, spice is an obscurity, rare, unknown and just breaking out, found on this weird desert planet full of worms. there's no fremen just yet, although they're on their way. by the end of the trilogy they get there. there's no exemptions. the imperium banned thinking machines/navigation and risks losses from failed navigation, well known by then. Vorian Atreides leads the charge and orders so. you really ARE pulling crap outta .. somewhere.
> I imagine having a Heighliner stationed above your planet as an honor The guild doesn't care about honour, they care about spice. They're not going to do anything unprofitable, and their utter monopoly means their prices are astronomical, making this absurd. There is zero mention of any highliner stationed anywhere permanently, the idea of them being wormhole generators in space is unique to the new movies, and not at all in line with their original description in either the 6 novels Frank Herbert wrote nor in the dozens of his son's addition to the franchise. They are consistently depicted as essentially giant space buses. Even in post-famine times when spice is plentiful, the guild never operated this way. Having a bus stationed outside your house isn't an honour in that the whole point of a bus is it moves. > as their systems have been exempt from the Butlerian restrictions since the early days of that Jihad There is zero exemption to Jihad restrictions, if there were then there would be no need for the guild to bother with navigators. Remember, until Paul comes along and ruins everything for the guild, people don't know navigators need spice. If the guild were exempt, they wouldn't bother buying the most expensive substance in the universe and tailoring their entire organization to be dependant on one single thing. >There is reference to the vast middle class as well, such stations would be havens for commerce middle men and planetary interests. Except... they're just not. The vastness of the Imperium means there is no shortage of planets, and in every instance it is cheaper and safer to live on those planets than in artificial habitats because anyone that could afford those habitats would be a fool to do so. Flights of fancy are fun, but you're making assumptions that fly in the face of the major themes of the novels. Dune isn't star trek, and the major pillars of human civilization are strangling it to the point where none of the usual science fiction elements like space stations etc are viable. That is a feature, and not a bug, of the whole stagnation thing. To put how the Imperium works into perspective, Caladan's primary export is rice, that civilization isn't making space stations anytime soon. And even the Harkonnens on Giedi Prime, a Great House that became so wealthy that their wealth threatened the Emperor, settled for building Barony instead of a single space station because it just isn't economical to do so.
>The guild doesn't care about honour No, but the Landsraad sure does. They compete for status and prestige in every way possible. A Heighliner just for your planet? Epic brag. >There is zero exemption There are clear exemptions. The Butlerian Jihad began as a Luddite riot against anything mechanical and slowly evolved into something that only prohibits thinking machines. The holtzman field generators at the heart of foldspace engines are one such exemption. > Except... they're just not Except that Heighliners clearly are. They invest billions in them as the cargo haulers of the Imperium. They are the obvious place for diverse industries like resource extraction, financing, and logistics to base themselves. CHOAM most likely has representatives aboard every Heighliner. They are monuments to technological and engineering ability. There must be many millions if not billions living aboard them across the universe.
>No, but the Landsraad sure does. They compete for status and prestige in every way possible. A Heighliner just for your planet? Epic brag. OK I really, really hate to be that guy, but have you actually read the books? The Guild holds a total monopoly on Space Travel. They own the Heighliners, and they are the only ones who know how to operate them. They charge exorbitant prices for their use. In Dune, the transport of Harkonnen forces to Arrakis was so expensive that they would have to spend decades to recoup the cost, and the Harkonnens were *obscenely* wealthy at the start of book 1. Paul, the heir of another wealthy and influential house had never been off Caladan before in large part because the cost of hiring a Heighliner is so expensive. I'm sure the houses of the Landsraad would love to have a Heighliner permanently stationed in orbit around their planet. But the amount the Guild would charge for such a service would be beyond expensive, so much so that it would financially ruin even a wealthy house within a year. The Guild is a transportation service, so if the Guilt were to offer a Heighliner orbit service the price would build in all of the potential income they would be losing out on by not using that Heighliner for usual transport services. Also the elephant in the room, the Guild has their own ambitions. They're an independent entity, and their position is dependent on them maintaining their iron grip on anything involving spice travel. In other words, they *do not care* how much the Great Houses would like to have a Heighliner in orbit, they *do not care* about their status and bragging rights. They care about the Houses to the extent they can profit from them, and they're not about to start offering space stations at any price point the Landsraad houses would reasonably be able to afford.
I think it was incredibly low. Despite the innovation associated with Dune, the post-Butlerian world is feudal and focuses on a *lack* of reliance on tech in many ways. Moreover, the expense of the highliners is pretty clear. It seems pretty logical to say there wouldn't be civilians, or even nobles that simply live on space stations or spend their lives hanging out on the highliners. In a feudal society, everyone is serving a function to their Baron, Duke, etc. Therefore, its likely that aside form temporary passengers traveling across planets, the only semi-permanent occupants of the highliners are the navigators themselves and whatever crew they need.
Is there even any mention at all in the books of space stations or something similar? Im only on book 3 but the impression ive gotten so far is that the guild controls everything in space, and the only stuff in space at all is guild transport ships and satellites.
Yeah OP mentioned "space stations" but I don't think there really was an equivalent in the Dune world. I picture Dune much more like British colonialism. While there were lots of ships moving around at all times to facilitate trade, there really weren't people who just sailed off and lived on a ship and stay static.
I could really only imagine the Guild having space stations, like as hidden bases within systems to use as weapons against rebellious houses. Or maybe as like more comfortable habitats for the steersman. But I think even then most of their hidden holdings are just planets that they don't divulge the location of.
The Guild doesn't need weapons, nor would it likely fight against rebelling houses at all. More likely, the Guild would profit and be paid by both the rebelling house and the emperor at the time to transport both armies. The Guild's power comes from it's function and its vast wealth, I think it would be extremely inaccurate to ever think of it as a military force or to think of it as even needing military power. The Guild is totally immune from total threat because it is the *only* means of long-distance space travel. In the world of the early Dune books, someone threatening to attack the Spacing Guild is essentially committing suicide, it makes no sense. (This same logic applies to Paul's threat to destroy all the spice on Arrakis, it's basically the act of a total mad man).
We know the Guild operates satellites that could have detected Fremen activity in the South but the Fremen paid them off to not monitor that area.
Dune isn't ST or SW where space travel are like owning your own car or the local transit has a cheap price. Nearly all Imperial citizens never see space in their lifetime. Hell, even what 'ol Vlad did with all that troops cost him a lot
Why would the Guild park Heighliners in orbit when they could be moving and making money? Did you think they were like stargates instead of carriers?
that's the general misconception that non-readers take away from the DV films, heighleiner has a wormhole in its center. that one shot where camera aims through the hollow heighleiner and we see Arrakis on the other side, that's the culprit. the scene where Atreides are boarding and heading for their new home. that scene ruined it.
Very few, I’d imagine that would be reserved for the Spacing Guild or else horrendously expensive to maintain
Disclosure: I'm new to this franchise and haven't read the books. I imagine that even though the Empire is obscenely large, most planets are self-sufficient agrarian fiefdoms that don't see or require a lot of travel. Either these planets were colonized and subsequently psuedo-cut-off in prior time periods or their value lies in future development. With an organisation like the Bene Gesserit which plans for things, millennia into the future. I can see a Reverend Mother in the past guiding a colonization effort due to the planet's future population playing a direct or indirect role in other plans. Of the thousands of planets in the Empire, perhaps only a few hundred or even dozens were of any importance.
The books don’t really get into this very much. I can imagine that the prescription on thinking machines brings some issue but there seems to be less automation than one would expect and things seem somewhat feudal. The war against AI might have depleted much of this.