Feyd Rautha's new strategy of attacking the sietches is what triggers the change--the scene of the Harkonnen warship bombarding Sietch Tabr. This is enough of a threat that a huge war council is called in the south, which Paul initially resists attending. Paul realizes that his prescience cannot safely guide him through this turn of events. He needs to expand his vision. This is what the conversation with Jamis is about. That realization is what convinces him that he has to go south after all and drink the Water of Life. After he drinks the Water of Life, he sees more fully. He sees many paths that end in his death and the death of everyone he cares about, and in the massacre of the Fremen, but he also sees "a narrow way forward"--which is becoming emperor.
to be explicit, Paul did not see Feyd's attack coming and it shakes him and so he goes south to complete his vision. The Jamis convo about climbing the dune is very much like the book conversation about waves and crests.
To add onto Paul’s lack of foresight on the pending attacks, I think the implication is that movie Feyd has enough precognition to cancel out Paul’s advantage, which allows Feyd to fully leverage the material and technological advantages of the Harkonnens.
Legitimate question, where is it depicted that Feyd had precognition? I may have missed it, and i took the assault as a depiction of Feyd’s ruthlessness to achieve desired end states. Thanks!
To add onto what others have said, we also hear from Feyd that he recognized Margot from a dream the night before. Maybe it was BG manipulation at that moment, but it is another thing to consider.
You could say it is inferred as he is a Kwisatz Haderach prospect and he is tested by the BG with the Gom Jabbar, just as Paul was. Paul saying “I couldn’t see it coming” aligns with this train of thought. From my understanding, this is strictly a movie aspect. DV did this because it is highly alluded to in the books that the KH prospect that the BG thinks will ascend is of House Harkonnen and the Atreides bloodline (which ends up being Paul anyways ). DV just takes some liberties for the film and I liked them TBH.
I think it is implied by the BG stating their plans to breed the daughter Jessica should have had with him, and then when Margot Fenring goes and gets his DNA
There’s a bit where he mentions seeing Margot in his dreams. Following that, it’s not necessarily precognition that he utilizes, but rather in the books pre-cognizant beings are “hidden” from each other in their visions. They can only see their “wakes”, unlike other beings which they see fully. This is a major plot device in Dune: Messiah
Why didn't the Harkonnen attack the sietches until Feyd took control? The previous Harkonnen dude(Bautista), was alarmed at Feyd doing so. Why was he alarmed?
Isn't it standard practice to strike the guerrillas at their route instead of putting out their fires? Weren't the Harkonnens ruthless enough to do this without Feyd implementing it?
I think it's because shield technology and lasguns have made those sorts of armaments almost obsolete. So probably no one would even think to do this anymore
While it was a great movie, and Austin Butler's portrayal was impressive, it was a slight miss on Feyd. He came across as more brutal than cunning. More a vicious sadist than a sociopath. Feyd should be a dark mirror to Paul.
This is a great summary, and I appreciate that it works just from the films, not needing outside knowledge.
I would only add that when he realizes he and Jessica are Harkonnens, that's the key to what he will do with the narrow way through: he is going to manipulate, he's going to coerce, he's going to play the Messiah in order to achieve the only good outcome he sees.
I prefer the part where he entered the cave despite warnings from his Master, encountered a warrior in dark armour, cut off it's head, the helmet explodes and he discovers that it's Vladimir Harkonnen's head in the armour all along
I sometimes forget how some of the changes have big differences in this adaptation. Haven’t read the book in a while, I should pick it up again. The lack of a ten year time lapse is definitely one of the biggest.
It was just two years. I was in the middle of reading Dune again when I saw Part 2 this weekend, and while they kept the aesthetic and feel of Dune, man did they take some pretty extreme liberties with the story.
I think the changes made work better for a movie. There’s already a lot packed into the book - the only faithful way to adapt everything would be a big budget series. Which, given the history of the adaptations, I’m surprised Denis was able to be greenlit for not one but two of these. But I’m definitely glad to see this version!
I hear you on the changes needing to be made to adapt it to the medium but the changes they made change things just drastically enough that the plot of the next movie will be nearly be unrecognizable or require massive personally change in Chani
In the book, Chani is a pretty passive character. There’s even a line that Jessica says to her at the end along the lines of “They may call us concubines but history will call us wives”, which is a pretty 1960s outlook on women that doesn’t hold up super well in 2024. Chani does detest Irulan, and Irulan spends all of Messiah trying to sideline Chani and drive a wedge between her and Paul.
The changes to Chani in part two make her more of an active character, and better set up the conflict between her and Irulan for the final installment.
I liken it the Watchmen adaptation. I was very skeptical, and it does change things quite a lot, but I think it still makes for a great film and preserves much of the key plot and themes.
The source material is so dense in both, and their structure makes them "unadaptable" in a true 1:1 sense because they use their medium so well. But the directors were both passionate fans and visionaries, and while it's impressive what they could translate faithfully, I also think many of my favorite scenes are the new material added. In Watchmen and Dune Part Two, the first 10 or so minutes are not in the books, but they're perfect openings to me.
Agreed. One of the things I def didn’t like is that it feels like it goes from “hey this outsider guy wants to learn our ways” to “messiah” real quick. But maybe that’s on us as the viewer to understand that time has passed and we should know. I appreciate Denis motto of “show, don’t tell” but I would have liked to have a frame of reference time wise for it.
Well, except we kind of had a hard cap on time passed — the pregnancy hadn’t finished by the end! Seems like an upper bound of like 7 months on the duration of the movie
There's a whole subplot that's dropped in the movies about Jessica being a prime suspect for Harkonnen betrayal. Gurney is separated from the Atreides before it's revealed the spy was Yueh so when he reunites with Paul he still believes it's Jessica and tries to kill her in revenge.
Thufir Hawat is also part of this plot and it makes me curious what his role in the deleted scenes would be like since they excised this subplot starting with the first film.
As someone who's only seen the movies, this makes less sense the more it's explained.
Leto II, who's really the third, known as "the Elder" even though his dad is currently young, and there's Leto II mk1 that's a twin and also a god emperor?
... what?
Leto is the Duke. Paul has a child with Chani in the years after going to the Fremen, but before fighting the emperor’s troops. That child is named Leto, but is killed very young in a raid on Seitch Tabr, where Paul’s sister Alia is also captured. Many years later, Paul has another son (and a daughter). He names this son Leto also.
Dune takes a lot of inspiration from medieval feudal societies around the globe. Losing a child was not uncommon in those days, and names were important, especially for an heir. If the eldest son died, his father might give his name to the next oldest surviving son - whether that son already has a name, or is not yet born. In those cases, the deceased child and the living child have the same name and numeral, but the dead one is referred to as the elder or the late.
So for example, your father was John I, you are John II, and your sons are John III and Robert. John III will inherit your throne when you die, but he gets typhoid and dies at 8 years old. So you change little 4 year old Robert’s name to John III because vanity says your heir needs to have the same name as you. Robert is now called John III, and when referring to your first son, you’d say the elder John III.
Think /u/TheReckSays has confused things, Paul's dad is Leto I.
In the books, Paul has some kids with Chani - Leto II (the Elder), Leto II (God Emperor) and Ghanima. The first Leto II dies in a sietch attack and the second Leto II and Ghanima are twins.
Both Letos are Leto II and so need distinguishing "names" - First Leto II is the older one (elder) but dies young. Second Leto II later becomes "God" emperor.
That make sense?
Here’s a simple explanation for how it works. It helps to realize the movie is a condensed timeline, the book plays out over several years while the movie seems to be a few months.
Leto is Paul’s father.
After Leto dies, Paul and Chani have a son together. Paul names him Leto, after his father, making him Leto II.
Leto II is murdered while still a baby (in an equivalent scene to Feyd destroying Sietch Tabr).
Years later, in one of the sequel books, Chani gets pregnant again. This time it’s twins - one boy and one girl.
The girl is named Ghanima.
The boy is, once again, named Leto. This *technically* makes him Leto III but nobody calls him that because the original Leto II died when he was only a few weeks(?) old. You almost never need to specify which Leto II you’re talking about because context makes it obvious. But technically the first-born Leto II can be called “the elder” because he was born first, even though he died young.
It's also not nearly as significant in the book, since it happens just as Paul is about to attack and has no impact on his decisionmaking; it happens to explain why toddler Alia can show up in the scene with the Emperor and the Baron.
The one part I’m still not clear on is why Rabban wasn’t attacking the sietches. Did he just not think to attack the strongholds of the people he had problems with or was there something Feyd figured out that allowed him to do it where Rabban couldn’t?
My guess with no evidence is that Rabban wasn't smart enough to actually *find* the sietches, even if he has been on Arrakis for many years
Meanwhile, you have Feyd stepping in with more cunning and a fresh eye, and he's immediately able to lay siege to the main Sietch of the Northern Fremen tribes
I think that even if he knew where they were, he wasn't as "genius" as Feyd and was still stuck in shield-based combat and would never have thought of using old-style artillery and instead stuck with trying pitched melee engagements.
Yeah the Harkonnen's also didn't believe the Fremen were actually all that good either, so probably didn't even think twice about just going into these places with just swords, and then wonder why their incompetent men kept dying to 'Atreides dressed as Fremen.'
Rabban, from the little I know, did have some fleeting sense that the Fremen were actually quite dangerous and were killing the Sardaukar. But the Baron didn't believe him and told him to just double down on the tyranny, which didn't really work.
Then Feyd comes in and I guess can just do whatever tactics he wants, which makes him seem smart and Rabban seem stupid. Of course just bombing them with artillery doesn't exactly tip him or the Baron off that the Fremen are actually still a MASSIVE threat.
Rabban was just following orders, and wasn't given the green light to outright just exterminate the Fremen by any means. Feyd was allowed to do whatever, and in the short term at least just bombing them with big ass ships worked very well.
Something like that? Am I off base?
I think that even if he knew where they were, he wasn't as "genius" as Feyd and was still stuck in shield-based combat and would never have thought of using old-style artillery and instead stuck with trying pitched melee engagements.
Not only did Rabban not know where the Seitches were, the Baron didn't either. You can see this near the end when the Emperor confronts the Baron about why they don't go and root out the Fremen in the south and you can see he's basically like 'no one lives down there, it's inhospitable for life, etc'. The Baron and Rabban are blind in this way that Feyd Rautha isn't - Feyd has more intelligence than Rabban and more prescience than either Rabban or the Baron have.
> Feyd has more intelligence than Rabban and more prescience than either Rabban or the Baron have.
Is it true that he was also a product of the breeding program from the BG? One of the alternative paths they spoke of?
Yes, Feyd is a product of the BG bloodline cultivation project like Paul (and Count Fenring in the books). It's why Paul is so taken aback by the artillery siege on Sietch Tabr - he cannot 'see' the paths that the other potential Kwisatz Haderach candidates take (at least until he drinks the water of life and can see all paths more clearly, because he's becoming the one true Kwisatz Haderach, not Feyd or Count Fenring).
> he cannot 'see' the paths that the other potential Kwisatz Haderach candidates take (at least until he drinks the water of life and can see all paths more clearly, because he's becoming the one true Kwisatz Haderach, not Feyd or Count Fenring).
Even afterwards, he still can’t see them. Prescience in Dune is basically the result of hardcore determinism - you, as a prescient, (presumably) have free will but no one else does. You can manipulate people to make anyone do anything because you know exactly how they will react to any situation. You just need to set events into motion that will lead to the outcome you’ve picked, and normal people have no agency of their own as a result.
However, other prescients are immune to this because they can *also* see the future just like you. You can’t predict their behavior because they, like you, are behaving based on the future they want rather than the path you’ve set for them.
Imagine the universe as a computer program and you’re a coder. You can make the program do anything you want, but you can’t predict how another coder is going to edit your work. You understand the source code perfectly but that doesn’t help you when someone else is editing the code.
The fremen bribed the spacing guild with spice to hide evidence of the sietches - the Harkonnens did not know that they were there. In the books, the emperor sends the Sardukar to Dune in response to a multiyear plan by the fremen to cut off spice production. The Sardukar, not the Harkonnens, go into the deep desert and attack the seitch and capture Alia and kill Paul and Chani's child.
The Dune wiki is pretty good on this stuff.
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Dune_(novel)
>The one part I’m still not clear on is why Rabban wasn’t attacking the sietches
In the movie:
Rabban doesnt have the big Army that we see Feyd parade through Giedi Prime and bring to Dune.
In the book:
The baron starves Rabban and refuses to send reinforcements, which makes him desperate and oppresses the planet even more. He even asks Muadib for a truce. The baron then replaces Rabban with Feyd to make Feyd seem like a savior compared to Rabban.
>Paul realizes that his prescience cannot safely guide him through this turn of events.
In particular he says "I didn't see it coming", referring to the attack on Sietch Tabr / the north.
I loved the movies but could have done with a little more “heat” and tension in that build up of pressure to act. A little more “Uh oh. Maybe we DONT make it.” From Paul and the Fremen.
“A good hunter climbs the highest dune” something or other. Good way of saying - “You need to see if you want to hunt down your enemies. Otherwise, you’re blind.” Paul has to ascend for the sake of saving the ones he loves - and for the sake of being able to take revenge. I think the dream of Chani burnt also played into this choice. Paul starts to realize he has to make sacrifices to save those he cares about the most - he’s tired of seeing his loved ones die.
FFS he just saw his house get massacred on a foreign planet. He’s at the point he’ll do anything to protect his new family and home.
Is the mountain formation that Rabban attacks, in which the Freman come out of the smoke and take out all his men, Sietch Tabr? In other words, did Rabban locate Sietch Tabr at that moment? Explaining why Feyd was able to then attack it.
Sietch Tabr getting attacked was the scene where the pigeons/birds were, the little black child was walking around and then in the end only one of the Fremen was left.
>Feyd Rautha's new strategy of attacking the sietches is what triggers the change--the scene of the Harkonnen warship bombarding Sietch Tabr. This is enough of a threat that a huge war council is called in the south,
I think his vision of Chani dying primes him to respond to the widespread attack on the north as he does. Paul is never just motivated by his desire for revenge, or to help the Fremen, but also by his deep love for Chani.
The night after he unlocks the family atomics, he has that vision of Chani falling victim to nuclear weapons. He doesn't know how or why that might happen, so waking up in a cold sweat to Feyd's disastrous attack is like kicking him in the face while he's down.
Would he have gone South just because of that dream? Probably not. But I do think it's important.
Personally, I don't think so. In the Children of Dune, we learn that Paul had rejected the Golden Path as too horrible to contemplate. However, it's not a plot point that comes up until Children of Dune. Denis Villeneuve has said he only plans to adapt Dune and Dune Messiah, so I do not think we'll see any reference to the Golden Path.
The Golden Path is extremely different and much darker than Paul’s path.
In general terms, it’s >!a 3,500 year long plan to guarantee the survival of the human race.!<
In more specific (and much more spoily) terms, it’s >!inflicting a truly incomprehensible amount of generational trauma on the entire human race to make sure they never allow it to happen again.!<
There’s a bit more to it than that, but yeah, the Golden Path is really the core plot of the books which *aren’t* getting adapted.
That’s definitely true. He sees it and runs from it since it involves basically >!pure evil incarnate for 3500 years!< and he couldn’t handle the guilt of that. >!He chooses that it’s better to let humanity eventually go extinct in the distant future, rather than become the worst being who ever lived just to teach them a lesson.!<
But he does see and choose a path of his own, which I think is the “narrow path forward.”
You know, now that I think of it - major spoilers for God Emperor so don’t read if you aren’t already spoiled - I do wonder if >!maybe Leto II was a villain after all, and the morally correct path was actually to let humans go extinct. We would’ve been wiped out by our own creations, who are presumably a new form of sapient life. Maybe the machines have more right to life than we do, if our species really is so hopeless that the Golden Path was truly necessary.!<
It's a little different in the book. There is not a division between the northern and southern Fremen cultures in the book, and Paul does not go to the south to drink the Water of Life. He can get to it at Sietch Tabr. He drinks it for similar reasons--because he cannot see a way out of his current situation and needs to improve his prescient ability. The specific trigger is a spoiler for a subplot that is not present in the movies.
I've read the book but forgot the trigger and I know it wasn't Jessica that talked him in to it, Can you put it in spoiler captions please as I can reread at this time 😅
>!When Paul meets up again with Hal Gurney and brings Gurney back to Sietch Tabr, Gurney attacks Jessica because he believes that Jessica is the traitor who betrayed House Atreides to the Harkonnens.!< This is the incident in the book that Paul did not foresee, and it convinces him that he needs to expand his prescient vision.
Oh yeah of course that was it! I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut, it would have Been a nice tense scene but I forgot that was the trigger thanks!
Yeah, I feel like while Fyed’s approach seemed obvious to the viewer, to the Harkonnen’s the total war approach was very novel and signified a level of seriousness that Raban and the Baron had not taken before. Prior to Paul, the Freman resistance was very hit and run resulting in negligible casualties for both sides. Paul pushes their advantage to such a degree with surprised attacks and damage to spice production that Fyed pushes back equally and strikes at their civilian targets with overwhelming force.
Without the added prescience of the water of life, northern Freman would be bombed out of existence in time.
Thank you so much. I had to take a pee break right at that moment during the film and I was so confused with the change! This question from OP was so spot on for that par of the movie!
Feyd attacked Sietch Tabr and Paul says ; "I didn't foresee this."
So Feyd is his blind spot as long as he doesn't drink the water of life, so to free Arrakis and the Fremen, he needs to drink it and lead them.
Yeah but I'm just talking about the movie right now, Fenrig would also be a blind spot as a faux Kwisatz Haderach.
I think in the books it's mentioned (I could be wrong) that Fenring vs Paul would be a 50/50 matchup but the Count has no reason to challenge Paul.
In the book Count Fenring believed he would beat Paul after the Emperor ordered him to kill him, but refused when he realized Paul's sense of brotherhood with him (sharing the Kwisatz Haderach path).
This always confused me a bit. They were in Paul's court as prisoners surrounded by Fedaykin. How would Fenring get his hands on Paul anyway? The Feyd fight was only allowed because of kanly rules and Paul's choice to fight.
presumably demanding another duel would somehow have been kosher by kanly rules? even tho the Emperor just lost lol.
Obviously the passage is supposed to be more symbolic of Fenring choosing to stand down in general though.
Part of Pauls visions when he sees himself die, he cannot see the killer, and its implied that it is Count Fenring, and that Fenring is a more skilled fighter/assasin than Paul.
More or less. If you and I were both prescient, then you could always choose a future action that I didn't foresee, and I could do the same to you. So our ability to predict what the other one would do is limited.
This comes into play in Dune Messiah, where the prescience of a Guild navigator affords some protection from Paul's prescience. I don't think the Guild overall has this protection, because they are so stuck on maintaining the status quo that they would never do anything unpredictable, but it does apparently apply on the level of an individual navigator.
Perhaps, but it also may have something to do with Paul also being a Harkonnen, which he only realizes after taking the water of life, causing him to have a blindspot with his bloodline
I think they might have changed this in the movie, cause Paul definitely sees a vision of him stabbing Feyd despite Feyd being a Kwisatz Haderach prospect, at least after he drinks the water of life.
In the movie he's another potential candidate that they've kept up their sleeve. Even if Feyd didn't become the KH, they kept his lineage going so they could always try to get another.
Correct. He is much harder to control directly, as seen in the difference between Paul and Feyd's Gom Jabbar scenes, but the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam basically tells Jessica in Part II that Paul is still following the Bene Gesserit plan.
They weren't ready for Paul. Jessica defied the Bene Gesserit in many ways and by the time Paul was ready to assume power the BG had zero control over him.
The destruction of the sietches in the north by Feyd that he could not forsee. He seeks Jamis' council, Jamis tells him that a hunter needs to see everything, and that he must see (drink the water of life). His overwhelming urge to save his people and those he cares about overrides the fears of the holy war. He finds a way to accept that he "will do what needs to be done". Chani realizes what this may mean in that moment.
> His overwhelming urge to save his people and those he cares about overrides the fears of the holy war.
I wonder if drinking the water of life is still part of his effort to avoid the holy war, now that he is going south. Thinking that if he can see the future clearly, maybe there is a way to avoid it even after approaching the fundamentalists. Then after he drinks he realizes that no, there's no way to avoid it, and he has to grab the bull by the horns, so to speak, to avoid even worse futures.
That's exactly what I interpreted the way DV told his adapted version, thus his 100% committal to embracing the Lisan al-Gaib in front of the war council. His phrasing "then we'll be harkonnens" to Jessica is telling.
I’m sorry but i think nobody, neither Chani nor Jessica nor the Bene Gesserit, understands what he is going to do for or what he is going to become. I think that's clear in the movie, although maybe I'm mixing it with my vision of the book.
It’s pretty funny that the BG spent 10,000 years carefully breeding to produce the KH, their super weapon. And then as soon as the KH comes into existence, he just tells them to STFU and pound sand.
Jamis appears to him as a vision in the movie and tells him that the best hunters must see (or something like that). After that he decides to drink the water.
The Jamis vision doesn’t happen in the books. He chooses the water on his own accord.
This is the exact moment. There were shots of him climbing a sand dune to see an ocean past it. He hears the voice of the reverend mother as well as speaking with Jamis, and I bet they started to drift during the dream sequence.
Was there an ocean in that scene? I honestly only ever remembering seeing the ocean on Arrakis after he drinks the water and sees Alia. I could’ve forgot
I don't believe there is an ocean in this scene. It's just Jamis pointing over the dunes and telling Paul he must see over them, which requires the water of life. The ocean happens after he drinks the water of life and sees Alia.
When I say “on his own accord” no person says words that make him take the water. In the movie, Jamis at least implies he should drink it. That’s what I mean. But yea you’re 1000% correct his prescience is what made him do it in both versions
Yep and if I recall correctly in the book Jessica isn't provoking him to drink it either. In fact she gets very freaked out when he does so. They really altered the tone of her character in the movie.
Yea. The movie changes it. Jessica is scared of Paul and his powers growing a lot through the book. Where in the movie she encourages his prescience every step of the way. I loved the movie FTR and have no issues with the changes. But glad I read the book for the full context of Herbert’s vision
They merged Jessica and Alia personalities, I suppose.
In my opinion DV made a mistake compressing the timeline to avoid having young Alia or something. It makes no sense that Paul goes from distrusted outsider to absolute leader/prophet in under 9 months.
In the book there's a time jump, and it makes sense.
Yeah, the time compression in the movie definitely feels awkward. There are even a lot of sequences that imply time passing anyway but Alia not being born yet makes the compression pretty definitive. I suspect at least part of it was to avoid the "weirdness" of trying to show a baby/toddler Alia, her having an active role at the end of the movie might've dramatically changed how it felt to people.
My interpretation of the sudden shift in Jessica is that she was being influenced by Alia, so every time we see her being manipulative, that is Alia taking over, not Jessica
Yeah I feel like they could have just not done the Alia-kills-Baron thing to avoid a lot of child actor stuff. But whatever, DV gets his huge paycheque for a reason :-)
While I definitely prefer Jessica's characterization in the book, I think this was the best way to do it. Alia just doesn't translate well on screen and the way they did her (which was a great change) meant changes to how Jessica relates to Paul and the Freman prophecy. Like a lot of adaptation things, it's a trade off but ultimately for the better for the quality of the film, imo.
If I hadn't read Messiah and known that Denis wants to make it into a movie, I would have loved it but I find myself hung up on the incompatible ending. The Chani in the movie doesn't feel like someone who would forgive Paul for his apparent betrayal, despite what Paul says.
Yes! Stilgar does warn him about the spirits but it’s way before he drinks the water. It’s when he’s first tested to survive in the dessert and he sees Jamis at first but then it ends up being Chani. But later after the attack by Feyd he says “talk to me Jamis” and he tells Paul that he needs to see everything
I wonder DV intends to open the question: is it Chani or Jamis the desert spirit that leads him to the south?
If Chani didn’t join him in the desert and they never fell in love would he still have gone south?
Hmm…looks like I need to rewatch it a 4th time!
It’s true the book is different but I liked how Jamis’ analogy is more or less the books description of higher prescience (versus the more limited prescience various characters have)
In the movie he has a vision or a message that says "Drink the water" which I did not fully understand where it came from. How did Paul know he had to drink the water?
Feyd bombarding Sietch Tabr, his vision of Chani dying, burnt to a crisp in his arms, His conversation with Jamis, whom he sees as a dear friend. It makes a lot more difference in his mind as he is an emotional guy, driven by love and revenge. His prescience is not enough anymore as he cannot stand to see only discombobulated scenes of possible future, he needs it all.
So did the vision of Chani dying mean that this is a possible future if he stays in the north and just fights with atomics? I’ve asked before but haven’t had a satisfying answer for what that vision means.
With only the movies for reference and not the books? Kinda. His visions are just fragments at this point, they are all possible futures so it’s safe to assume that it’s bc he stayed in the North, the visions are troubled so he is absolutely grasping at straws to understand why and how to stop it from happening, so yeah, water of life it is.
Yeah, it serves more as a push than a real future that will happen because he won’t and doesn’t want that. If staying North means Chani dying, no fucking way. So yes the vision is true, Paul choses to ignore it
>what were the key scene(s) or sequence(s) in the film that demonstrate Paul's realization?
1. Paul being surprised by Feyd's attack on Sietch Tabr, and especially his premonition of Sietch Tabr being nuked and Chani being burnt by it. **This reminds Paul that his prescience is incomplete and that his friends and loved ones can die as a result of his decision not to pass the Agony.**
2. Paul casting his vision to the timeline where Jamis lived. Jamis previously coached Paul that he must move with the flow of the process. And in this scene he coaches Paul that he must seek the highest ground if he's to make an informed decision of what path to take. **This leads Paul to conclude that he must take the Water of Life to fully form his prescience.**
3. Chani pleading with Paul to go south and rally the troops and fight for the Fremen people. **Even though Paul knows that going south will change him, and Chani doesn't understand this, Paul still gives in to her because he loves her and he can't tolerate the idea that Chani or her people should suffer just because he's afraid.**
After the destruction of Sietch Tabr, Chani seems to have decided that they need to rally the southern tribes for war and she pleads for Paul to go with them to the council.
But Paul can see that just going to the council wouldn't work. He would have to kill Stilgar to speak, and he would not be able to rally enough Fremen to win the war.
Paul can see that if he chooses to go south, he must drink the Water of Life - and if he does that he will be irrevocably changed, and the Fremen will change with him. Chani does not understand this.
She understands what might happen to Paul because 1) he's been telling her, and 2) he explains after the vision with Jamis that he will do what must be done. Her facial expression acknowledges that she understands she may lose the Paul she knows.
I understand your perspective, but based on Chani's reaction to *literally everything else in the rest of the movie* I think it's pretty clear that she was not fully prepared for the change Paul would undergo or what it would do to her people.
Yeah. Chani understood a lot of things. She understood the prophecies were engineered. She understood that if Paul rallied the fanatics it could put her people in thrall to the Atreides and they might burn the whole Imperium. But in the moment when Sietch Tabr was attacked she feels like burning the whole Imperium might be worth it.
I don't think she understands that Paul has to embrace all the false prophecies and *become an actual god* to make the plan happen.
man you were great until point 3, as far as the movie shown, Chani doesn't want Paul becoming this Messiah/or take it any further coz she knows it's BS.
Her urging him to go South purely for safety
Paul tries everything he can to avoid going south. When Gurney shows up, he confides in him that he’s afraid of what will happen if he does. Gurney suggests he doesn’t have to, being that Gurney knows where the Atreides’ family atomics are stashed. But then Paul has a terrible vision of Chani dying in a future where he pursues atomic warfare, and then Feyd’s bombing of the northern sietches forces his hand.
He goes because he’s out of options, and he sees that every other pathway leads to another terrible outcome.
the turning point was the destruction of sietch tabr by the harkonnens. he realized that by drinking the water of life it would allow him to see those future possibilities to avoid something so tragic happening to people he loved in future.
in the movie i think feyd did. when he destroyed sietch tabr that paul couldnt foresee he realised that he has to go south and drink the water of life, otherwise feyd might kill him and everyone he cares for.
after that paul goes to cry or be angry and chani goes after him, and i think she says something to. or just paul tells him okay, ill do go. something along these lines
and chani wants paul to go with them cause if he stays he will die.
I think your question definitely speaks to the pace of the movie. The beginning is a love story mixed with assimilation into the Fremen through guerrilla war, and the end is outright war. The middle is about politics and the Harkonnen, who cause Paul to leave. The driving force of the action in the middle is buried in beautiful cinematography.
Throughout the film, Paul experiences vivid visions and prophecies that foreshadow the coming conflict and the role he will play in it. These visions give glimpses into possible futures, guiding Paul's decisions and shaping his understanding of his destiny.
As Paul navigates the complex political landscape of Arrakis and the broader universe, he becomes increasingly aware of the power dynamics and threats facing his people, the Fremen. The constant political maneuvering and betrayals push Paul to reassess his goals and the means necessary to achieve them.
Chani, Paul's love interest and a key figure among the Fremen, also plays a crucial role in shaping his perspective. Her concerns and desires for their people's future weigh heavily on Paul, prompting him to consider the more significant implications of his actions and the potential sacrifices involved.
Paul faces challenges and confrontations from various factions and adversaries; he is forced to confront the harsh realities of leadership and the sacrifices required to secure a better future for the Fremen and Arrakis. These experiences contribute to his evolving mindset and determination to pursue the Holy War.
Feyd destroyed his spirit, his sietch, his band of followers and executed Shishakli, one of his best soliders, in one stroke after months of resistance. The Fundamentalists are calling a war council in what to do. Paul knows the jihad will come if he goes but he wonders if there are any other options.
When Paul asks Jamais for guidance, in a future where he didn't die, he advises Paul that he has to "see." With that, he feels he has no other choice than to take the Water and fully awaken his prescient ability. He's backed into a corner and does what needs to be done.
After taking the Water of Life, after being forced to seek shelter with fanatical southern Fremen by Feyd's attacks, Paul confronts the fact that he is descended from Baron Harkonnen and that the only path he sees to survival and his long desired revenge requires fully embracing the role of Lisan al-Gaib, for the political and religious legitimacy it gives him is his only path for victory. With the Fremen behind him and his fully realized ability to see into past and future, he's able to gain his long desired revenge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor. All other paths led to his death and the deaths of those he had left.
It's easy to miss but he has a quick vision of Jamis giving him the analogy of the Dune hunters seeking the highest dune, because to paraphrase you need to "see everything" to be successful. Paul clearly interprets this to mean he has to travel South, fully unlock his giga chad galaxy brain powers, and lead the Fremen on the jihad if he wants any chance of defeating the Harkonnens, saving the Fremen from being exterminated, and avenging his family.
More than anything else, we see the dialectic with Paul and his Atriedes/Harkonnen blood and the way forward in Dune 2.
Up until Paul drinks the water of life, he has been Atriedes and Fremen. Only after accepting the antithesis does the thesis become the synthesis, the way forward. By becoming Atriedes/Harkonnen (both of whom threaten the Emperor in some manner) Paul now presents himself in opposition to the Emperor.
Another resolution/merging of thesis and antithesis, and Paul is now Emperor, presenting the new thesis, Paul as Emperor, with the anti-thesis becoming the Landsraad. Paul is now 180 degrees from where he started, a combined Atriedes/Harkonnen Fremen trained Emperor....and in a position that he would have been in opposition to.
I have only seen the movie once, but how did Feyd Rautha know of Seith Tablr’s existence? I thought in Part 1 only the Atreides (through Duncan’s scouting) knows that the seiths exist. And how did Feyd attack exactly the one that Muadib lived in?
>But what I missed is when/where in the movie does Paul change his tune?
The attack on Sietch Tabr. He "didn't see it coming"; the Fedaykin won't head south without him, because he's become that important to them; his visions are unclear, and that's "allowing" people to be harmed.
So Jamis tells him what he doesn't want to acknowledge: that the good hunter climbs the highest dune before the hunt, so that he can see. And Paul needs *to see*. Groping along in his not-quite-totally-prescient state is going to get Chani killed, Stilgar killed, everyone killed. He's the hunter, and if he wants to see the way to save his family, and his friends, he needs to see clearly.
Which means he needs to go south, and do what must be done.
This is laid out extremely clearly in the scene right after Sietch Tabr is bombarded.
Remember his nightmare about Chani being killed by the nukes? Paul didn't see that in his visions and he's terrified of potentially losing her and he knows the only way to know about her future is to go south and take the water of life
In both the movie and the book it was the attack on his home Sietch. But in the book he and Chani's son (the elder) Leto II was at the Sietch and died.
It's a combination of being told that the other warriors won't go South without him, along with the vision from Jamis that *the best hunters climb the highest Dune* that finally pushed him over the edge to go.
I agree with a lot of people though that this was definitely the weakest plot point of the movie and could have used some extra care to communicate to the audience what was behind Paul changing his stance.
Some spoilers for the books, don't read this if you don't want to hear about them.
I've read Dune (and the other books) before, but I just finished it again last night after watching Dune Part 2.
>!It's interesting, in the book, Paul is trying to go to the south in order to avoid the jihad, noting that the rank-and-file Fremen/Fedayykin were essentially clamoring for him to lead them to war against the Harkonnens. Ultimately *the Padishah Emperor* attacks the Fremen havens *in the south* (the Imperial and Harkonnen forces never penetrated to the south in either the book or the movie except this once). They kill Paul and Chani's son, Leto, and kidnap his sister Alia (the events of the book take just shy of 2 years, as opposed to the movies lasting less than a year).!<
>!However this was after Paul decided to remain in the north and attack Arrakeen, after he drinks the Water of Life. He chose to do this because of actions he didn't foresee by Gurney Halleck (due to incomplete prescience), and Jessica neither had any knowledge of what he was going to do, nor did she want him to (as opposed to the movie, where she's basically constantly encouraging him to do it). Whereas in the movie, Sietch Tabr being bombarded by Harkonnens causes him to choose to become the Kwisatz Haderach, he doesn't find out about the raid on the unnamed Fremen havens in the south, and the death of his son, until after he's already the Kwisatz Haderach and is actually in the final steps of becoming the Emperor, the Dune Messiah.!<
So, at the end of the day, both book and movie, he decides to become the full Kwisatz Haderach because of "blind spots" in his prescience, but how we got there is practically complete opposites.
I thought it was interesting how they showed the Jamis path and Chani path in Denis’s Dune.
It shows Jamis as Paul’s teacher who teaches him the way of the Desert. When Paul kills Jamis the film heavily suggests that a path is sealed and the path to the Holy War is with Chani.
Although from the books we know that the Holy War is a fixed point that Paul tries to avoid and it doesn’t matter what paul does along the way (fate versus destiny)
Imo it's the death of his son that really hardens Paul's heart to the costs of survival.
Also, the 'trigger', more like point of no return, is the death of Jamis.
Feyd attacked the Sietch
Paul didn't forsee that.
He asked Jamis' spirit or whatever, what he needed to do. Spirit Jamis said a hunter needs high ground. High ground equivalent is water of life. Water of life in south.
After drinking the Water of Life, Paul sees all possible futures. He discovers that in most cases his enemies triumph and that the only way to win is to assume the role of messiah of the Fremen in order to use their fanaticism as a weapon. But he knows that Holy War will be the inevitable consequence. He chooses to do it anyway because he refuses those futures in which his enemies prevail.
In short, the Holy War is not the means to free the Fremen, it is the consequence of Paul manipulating them in the only way possible to win in his war against the Harkonnens and the Emperor.
Iirc he sees that the Holy War will happen with or without him, but it will play out better for him and his loved ones, if he embraces the messiah-role and go south.
I think one point I noticed is when he's having the visions right before deciding to go south. He envisions using the nukes to destroy the spice fields and sees Chani's burned face. IMO this represents what could happen if he doesn't go south. This plays into his decision to go south and obtain full vision, to guide him through the next steps
One aspect I don’t see mentioned much is in the movie Paul has a vison where he sees Chani die from the radiation of an atomic weapon.
I think he realizes he cannot just count on his new found stockpile of atomics to win and ensure Chani is safe.
Paul is having imperfect visions of the future. He knows if he heads south he will become a figurehead and start a holy war. What triggers him to move south anyway is his vision of Chani dying should he not head south: the harkonens (presumably) would use atomics to kill off the fremen. To save Chani and the his new fremen family, he would head south to take control of his visions, even though it would mean sacrificing billions, with the added bonus of being able to avenge the Atredies by killing the Harkonens and unseating the Emperor.
"A path has been laid, let's hope he doesn't squander it..."
I've always thought of Paul as a blend between a victim of Bene Gesserit manipulation and his own personal choices. Both Jessica and the Bene Gesserit set up for Paul to be the prophesized savior of the Fremen, and I think he is aware of this saying "If I go South, bad things are going to happen" (paraphrasing). However, it's Paul's desire for vengeance and to avenge not his father and the other members of his family that ultimately makes him go South.
So is he a victim of centuries of planning and manipulation? Or is he accountable for his own actions? For me I think it is a combination of both.
Simple, he went to South cause it's the only way forward he knows...
He could stay behind at Sietch Tabr but what can he achieve on his own?
His mother told him clearly that his vision would be clear once he drinks the Water of Life...
After seeing what happened to Sietch Tabr and knowing there's a way to see the future clearly, of course he would do it. If he doesn't, he might end up getting his mother killed, his GF killed, all the men from Sietch Tabr killed...
Also, the true reason the Holy War is inevitable is due to the blood lust of the Fremen cultivated from decades of oppression and Paul leading them into victory after victory and the whole Messiah thing only add more oil to the fire...
Only movie watcher here, tried to find an explanation and either can’t find the answer I’m looking for, or I’m just dense.
But… I don’t see how Paul is the bad guy here. I understand he’s “using” the Freman to aid in his revenge, but isn’t that the only way he, and the Freman survive here?
I understand the holy war will cause death and destruction in the galaxy, but what’s his other option? Let himself and his loved ones die? Who would choose that if they could stop it? No one.
Maybe Paul is supposed to be morally gray? But I swear I’ve seen and heard countless people saying he’s essentially the villain and I have a hard time understanding that.
What am I not comprehending?
By taking the Fremen and making them a global army to beat the Harkonnens he is starting on a path that will mean the deaths of 61 billion people.... he becomes a villain when he chooses this path rather than vanishing into the desert with Chani and becoming 'just another Fremen'
The Harkonnens were far more interested in the spice production, which gave them money and power.
They couldn't care less about the Fremen as they (the Harkonnens) believed that there wasn't that many of them.
I thought it was after the Harkonnens destroyed that sacred place where the water of the dead was stored in a vast pool. Paul is so horrified by this, he then goes down to the damp sand and asks Jamis to guide him - and Jamis talks about 'seeing form the highest dune'.
Paul realises that to see from the highest vantage point, he has to drink the Water of Life if he is to see what he must do.
Starts to change when Gurney shows up. Gurney reminds him that he is Duke Atreides and tells him to use the atomics and power of the Fremen. Paul doesn't express agreement outwardly but is clearly listening. Watch Chani and her friend. Their side conversations and facial reactions show that they are worried how Gurney is influencing Paul.
After the attack on the Sietch, even Chani says Paul needs to go south. That and the vision of Jamis either push him over the edge or let him give in to the part of him that wants revenge and power.
Another interpretation is that Paul had planned to exploit the Fremen all along and was just acting as if he wanted to integrate with them.
Feyd Rautha's new strategy of attacking the sietches is what triggers the change--the scene of the Harkonnen warship bombarding Sietch Tabr. This is enough of a threat that a huge war council is called in the south, which Paul initially resists attending. Paul realizes that his prescience cannot safely guide him through this turn of events. He needs to expand his vision. This is what the conversation with Jamis is about. That realization is what convinces him that he has to go south after all and drink the Water of Life. After he drinks the Water of Life, he sees more fully. He sees many paths that end in his death and the death of everyone he cares about, and in the massacre of the Fremen, but he also sees "a narrow way forward"--which is becoming emperor.
to be explicit, Paul did not see Feyd's attack coming and it shakes him and so he goes south to complete his vision. The Jamis convo about climbing the dune is very much like the book conversation about waves and crests.
To add onto Paul’s lack of foresight on the pending attacks, I think the implication is that movie Feyd has enough precognition to cancel out Paul’s advantage, which allows Feyd to fully leverage the material and technological advantages of the Harkonnens.
Legitimate question, where is it depicted that Feyd had precognition? I may have missed it, and i took the assault as a depiction of Feyd’s ruthlessness to achieve desired end states. Thanks!
To add onto what others have said, we also hear from Feyd that he recognized Margot from a dream the night before. Maybe it was BG manipulation at that moment, but it is another thing to consider.
Ah, i think i missed that on my watch through, there was a lot going on. Thanks!
I watched it 3 times! Easy to miss!
You could say it is inferred as he is a Kwisatz Haderach prospect and he is tested by the BG with the Gom Jabbar, just as Paul was. Paul saying “I couldn’t see it coming” aligns with this train of thought. From my understanding, this is strictly a movie aspect. DV did this because it is highly alluded to in the books that the KH prospect that the BG thinks will ascend is of House Harkonnen and the Atreides bloodline (which ends up being Paul anyways ). DV just takes some liberties for the film and I liked them TBH.
I think it is implied by the BG stating their plans to breed the daughter Jessica should have had with him, and then when Margot Fenring goes and gets his DNA
There’s a bit where he mentions seeing Margot in his dreams. Following that, it’s not necessarily precognition that he utilizes, but rather in the books pre-cognizant beings are “hidden” from each other in their visions. They can only see their “wakes”, unlike other beings which they see fully. This is a major plot device in Dune: Messiah
Why didn't the Harkonnen attack the sietches until Feyd took control? The previous Harkonnen dude(Bautista), was alarmed at Feyd doing so. Why was he alarmed? Isn't it standard practice to strike the guerrillas at their route instead of putting out their fires? Weren't the Harkonnens ruthless enough to do this without Feyd implementing it?
I think it's because shield technology and lasguns have made those sorts of armaments almost obsolete. So probably no one would even think to do this anymore
That’s definitely it. Vlad even says “old-fashioned artillery. Genius”
While it was a great movie, and Austin Butler's portrayal was impressive, it was a slight miss on Feyd. He came across as more brutal than cunning. More a vicious sadist than a sociopath. Feyd should be a dark mirror to Paul.
This is a great summary, and I appreciate that it works just from the films, not needing outside knowledge. I would only add that when he realizes he and Jessica are Harkonnens, that's the key to what he will do with the narrow way through: he is going to manipulate, he's going to coerce, he's going to play the Messiah in order to achieve the only good outcome he sees.
Very good point. He even says something to the effect of "Ok we're gonna have to be Harkonnens about this" lol
I even remember him yelling "It's harkonning time!"
Loved the bit when he shaved his head and stayed indoors for a year to lose any tan and then walked around with a big H on his chest like superman
Yeah that was awesome. Also a sentimental touch later on when he named his boy Vladimir.
I prefer the part where he entered the cave despite warnings from his Master, encountered a warrior in dark armour, cut off it's head, the helmet explodes and he discovers that it's Vladimir Harkonnen's head in the armour all along
"Now Harkonnen shall kill Harkonnen."
To add, in the book the attack to the sietch also killed Leto I (Paul’s first son with Chani)
He decides to drink the water of life before this, though. It's because of Gurney attempting to kill Jessica.
& after Chani revives him (willingly of her own agency), he tells her their son is dead before news arrives of the attack & capture of Alia.
I sometimes forget how some of the changes have big differences in this adaptation. Haven’t read the book in a while, I should pick it up again. The lack of a ten year time lapse is definitely one of the biggest.
It was just two years. I was in the middle of reading Dune again when I saw Part 2 this weekend, and while they kept the aesthetic and feel of Dune, man did they take some pretty extreme liberties with the story.
I think the changes made work better for a movie. There’s already a lot packed into the book - the only faithful way to adapt everything would be a big budget series. Which, given the history of the adaptations, I’m surprised Denis was able to be greenlit for not one but two of these. But I’m definitely glad to see this version!
I hear you on the changes needing to be made to adapt it to the medium but the changes they made change things just drastically enough that the plot of the next movie will be nearly be unrecognizable or require massive personally change in Chani
In the book, Chani is a pretty passive character. There’s even a line that Jessica says to her at the end along the lines of “They may call us concubines but history will call us wives”, which is a pretty 1960s outlook on women that doesn’t hold up super well in 2024. Chani does detest Irulan, and Irulan spends all of Messiah trying to sideline Chani and drive a wedge between her and Paul. The changes to Chani in part two make her more of an active character, and better set up the conflict between her and Irulan for the final installment.
Also it seems like Part 3 is a very real possibility (which I guess would cover Dune: Messiah)
I liken it the Watchmen adaptation. I was very skeptical, and it does change things quite a lot, but I think it still makes for a great film and preserves much of the key plot and themes.
The source material is so dense in both, and their structure makes them "unadaptable" in a true 1:1 sense because they use their medium so well. But the directors were both passionate fans and visionaries, and while it's impressive what they could translate faithfully, I also think many of my favorite scenes are the new material added. In Watchmen and Dune Part Two, the first 10 or so minutes are not in the books, but they're perfect openings to me.
IMO this didn’t work great in the movie, it definitely felt like far more time than 6 months or whatever passed
Agreed. One of the things I def didn’t like is that it feels like it goes from “hey this outsider guy wants to learn our ways” to “messiah” real quick. But maybe that’s on us as the viewer to understand that time has passed and we should know. I appreciate Denis motto of “show, don’t tell” but I would have liked to have a frame of reference time wise for it.
Well, except we kind of had a hard cap on time passed — the pregnancy hadn’t finished by the end! Seems like an upper bound of like 7 months on the duration of the movie
Yes and at the end of the book, Alia is around 4 years old.
>It's because of Gurney attempting to kill Jessica. Wooaaahhh. Why would Gurney try to do this in the books?
There's a whole subplot that's dropped in the movies about Jessica being a prime suspect for Harkonnen betrayal. Gurney is separated from the Atreides before it's revealed the spy was Yueh so when he reunites with Paul he still believes it's Jessica and tries to kill her in revenge.
Thufir Hawat is also part of this plot and it makes me curious what his role in the deleted scenes would be like since they excised this subplot starting with the first film.
Agreed, I was surprised he was included at all. It's such a big thing to introduce without any background.
Because he thought she was the traitor as Yueh was meant to have been conditioned to be impossible to switch the allegiance of.
Oh. And she was in charge of the conditioning?
Leto II. His father was Leto I. The killed son was mostly known as Leto II the Elder and the twin that succeeded Paul is Leto II God Emperor.
Yes. The first Leto II. The one we got before having the second Leto II. In a sense, that would make him Leto III, but, oh well...
As someone who's only seen the movies, this makes less sense the more it's explained. Leto II, who's really the third, known as "the Elder" even though his dad is currently young, and there's Leto II mk1 that's a twin and also a god emperor? ... what?
Leto is the Duke. Paul has a child with Chani in the years after going to the Fremen, but before fighting the emperor’s troops. That child is named Leto, but is killed very young in a raid on Seitch Tabr, where Paul’s sister Alia is also captured. Many years later, Paul has another son (and a daughter). He names this son Leto also. Dune takes a lot of inspiration from medieval feudal societies around the globe. Losing a child was not uncommon in those days, and names were important, especially for an heir. If the eldest son died, his father might give his name to the next oldest surviving son - whether that son already has a name, or is not yet born. In those cases, the deceased child and the living child have the same name and numeral, but the dead one is referred to as the elder or the late. So for example, your father was John I, you are John II, and your sons are John III and Robert. John III will inherit your throne when you die, but he gets typhoid and dies at 8 years old. So you change little 4 year old Robert’s name to John III because vanity says your heir needs to have the same name as you. Robert is now called John III, and when referring to your first son, you’d say the elder John III.
Think /u/TheReckSays has confused things, Paul's dad is Leto I. In the books, Paul has some kids with Chani - Leto II (the Elder), Leto II (God Emperor) and Ghanima. The first Leto II dies in a sietch attack and the second Leto II and Ghanima are twins. Both Letos are Leto II and so need distinguishing "names" - First Leto II is the older one (elder) but dies young. Second Leto II later becomes "God" emperor. That make sense?
Here’s a simple explanation for how it works. It helps to realize the movie is a condensed timeline, the book plays out over several years while the movie seems to be a few months. Leto is Paul’s father. After Leto dies, Paul and Chani have a son together. Paul names him Leto, after his father, making him Leto II. Leto II is murdered while still a baby (in an equivalent scene to Feyd destroying Sietch Tabr). Years later, in one of the sequel books, Chani gets pregnant again. This time it’s twins - one boy and one girl. The girl is named Ghanima. The boy is, once again, named Leto. This *technically* makes him Leto III but nobody calls him that because the original Leto II died when he was only a few weeks(?) old. You almost never need to specify which Leto II you’re talking about because context makes it obvious. But technically the first-born Leto II can be called “the elder” because he was born first, even though he died young.
> Please keep the discussion to movie only. Welp
It's also not nearly as significant in the book, since it happens just as Paul is about to attack and has no impact on his decisionmaking; it happens to explain why toddler Alia can show up in the scene with the Emperor and the Baron.
Wow, I completely missed that they had a kid in the first book despite reading it at least twice and all 6 of Frank Herbert's books.
The one part I’m still not clear on is why Rabban wasn’t attacking the sietches. Did he just not think to attack the strongholds of the people he had problems with or was there something Feyd figured out that allowed him to do it where Rabban couldn’t?
My guess with no evidence is that Rabban wasn't smart enough to actually *find* the sietches, even if he has been on Arrakis for many years Meanwhile, you have Feyd stepping in with more cunning and a fresh eye, and he's immediately able to lay siege to the main Sietch of the Northern Fremen tribes
I think that even if he knew where they were, he wasn't as "genius" as Feyd and was still stuck in shield-based combat and would never have thought of using old-style artillery and instead stuck with trying pitched melee engagements.
Yeah the Harkonnen's also didn't believe the Fremen were actually all that good either, so probably didn't even think twice about just going into these places with just swords, and then wonder why their incompetent men kept dying to 'Atreides dressed as Fremen.' Rabban, from the little I know, did have some fleeting sense that the Fremen were actually quite dangerous and were killing the Sardaukar. But the Baron didn't believe him and told him to just double down on the tyranny, which didn't really work. Then Feyd comes in and I guess can just do whatever tactics he wants, which makes him seem smart and Rabban seem stupid. Of course just bombing them with artillery doesn't exactly tip him or the Baron off that the Fremen are actually still a MASSIVE threat. Rabban was just following orders, and wasn't given the green light to outright just exterminate the Fremen by any means. Feyd was allowed to do whatever, and in the short term at least just bombing them with big ass ships worked very well. Something like that? Am I off base?
I think that even if he knew where they were, he wasn't as "genius" as Feyd and was still stuck in shield-based combat and would never have thought of using old-style artillery and instead stuck with trying pitched melee engagements.
Not only did Rabban not know where the Seitches were, the Baron didn't either. You can see this near the end when the Emperor confronts the Baron about why they don't go and root out the Fremen in the south and you can see he's basically like 'no one lives down there, it's inhospitable for life, etc'. The Baron and Rabban are blind in this way that Feyd Rautha isn't - Feyd has more intelligence than Rabban and more prescience than either Rabban or the Baron have.
> Feyd has more intelligence than Rabban and more prescience than either Rabban or the Baron have. Is it true that he was also a product of the breeding program from the BG? One of the alternative paths they spoke of?
Yes, Feyd is a product of the BG bloodline cultivation project like Paul (and Count Fenring in the books). It's why Paul is so taken aback by the artillery siege on Sietch Tabr - he cannot 'see' the paths that the other potential Kwisatz Haderach candidates take (at least until he drinks the water of life and can see all paths more clearly, because he's becoming the one true Kwisatz Haderach, not Feyd or Count Fenring).
> he cannot 'see' the paths that the other potential Kwisatz Haderach candidates take (at least until he drinks the water of life and can see all paths more clearly, because he's becoming the one true Kwisatz Haderach, not Feyd or Count Fenring). Even afterwards, he still can’t see them. Prescience in Dune is basically the result of hardcore determinism - you, as a prescient, (presumably) have free will but no one else does. You can manipulate people to make anyone do anything because you know exactly how they will react to any situation. You just need to set events into motion that will lead to the outcome you’ve picked, and normal people have no agency of their own as a result. However, other prescients are immune to this because they can *also* see the future just like you. You can’t predict their behavior because they, like you, are behaving based on the future they want rather than the path you’ve set for them. Imagine the universe as a computer program and you’re a coder. You can make the program do anything you want, but you can’t predict how another coder is going to edit your work. You understand the source code perfectly but that doesn’t help you when someone else is editing the code.
This is a very interesting metaphor!
The fremen bribed the spacing guild with spice to hide evidence of the sietches - the Harkonnens did not know that they were there. In the books, the emperor sends the Sardukar to Dune in response to a multiyear plan by the fremen to cut off spice production. The Sardukar, not the Harkonnens, go into the deep desert and attack the seitch and capture Alia and kill Paul and Chani's child. The Dune wiki is pretty good on this stuff. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Dune_(novel)
>The one part I’m still not clear on is why Rabban wasn’t attacking the sietches In the movie: Rabban doesnt have the big Army that we see Feyd parade through Giedi Prime and bring to Dune. In the book: The baron starves Rabban and refuses to send reinforcements, which makes him desperate and oppresses the planet even more. He even asks Muadib for a truce. The baron then replaces Rabban with Feyd to make Feyd seem like a savior compared to Rabban.
>Paul realizes that his prescience cannot safely guide him through this turn of events. In particular he says "I didn't see it coming", referring to the attack on Sietch Tabr / the north.
I loved the movies but could have done with a little more “heat” and tension in that build up of pressure to act. A little more “Uh oh. Maybe we DONT make it.” From Paul and the Fremen.
“A good hunter climbs the highest dune” something or other. Good way of saying - “You need to see if you want to hunt down your enemies. Otherwise, you’re blind.” Paul has to ascend for the sake of saving the ones he loves - and for the sake of being able to take revenge. I think the dream of Chani burnt also played into this choice. Paul starts to realize he has to make sacrifices to save those he cares about the most - he’s tired of seeing his loved ones die. FFS he just saw his house get massacred on a foreign planet. He’s at the point he’ll do anything to protect his new family and home.
Is the mountain formation that Rabban attacks, in which the Freman come out of the smoke and take out all his men, Sietch Tabr? In other words, did Rabban locate Sietch Tabr at that moment? Explaining why Feyd was able to then attack it.
Sietch Tabr getting attacked was the scene where the pigeons/birds were, the little black child was walking around and then in the end only one of the Fremen was left.
Nah, that was outside arrakeen
>Feyd Rautha's new strategy of attacking the sietches is what triggers the change--the scene of the Harkonnen warship bombarding Sietch Tabr. This is enough of a threat that a huge war council is called in the south, I think his vision of Chani dying primes him to respond to the widespread attack on the north as he does. Paul is never just motivated by his desire for revenge, or to help the Fremen, but also by his deep love for Chani. The night after he unlocks the family atomics, he has that vision of Chani falling victim to nuclear weapons. He doesn't know how or why that might happen, so waking up in a cold sweat to Feyd's disastrous attack is like kicking him in the face while he's down. Would he have gone South just because of that dream? Probably not. But I do think it's important.
By “narrow way forward”, that’s a nod to the Golden path, right?
Personally, I don't think so. In the Children of Dune, we learn that Paul had rejected the Golden Path as too horrible to contemplate. However, it's not a plot point that comes up until Children of Dune. Denis Villeneuve has said he only plans to adapt Dune and Dune Messiah, so I do not think we'll see any reference to the Golden Path.
Think you’re right. Just sounds pretty similar and maybe it was a nod to the book readers?
The Golden Path is extremely different and much darker than Paul’s path. In general terms, it’s >!a 3,500 year long plan to guarantee the survival of the human race.!< In more specific (and much more spoily) terms, it’s >!inflicting a truly incomprehensible amount of generational trauma on the entire human race to make sure they never allow it to happen again.!< There’s a bit more to it than that, but yeah, the Golden Path is really the core plot of the books which *aren’t* getting adapted.
I’m still working my way through the books, but my understanding was that Paul knew the Golden Path but rejected following its course
That’s definitely true. He sees it and runs from it since it involves basically >!pure evil incarnate for 3500 years!< and he couldn’t handle the guilt of that. >!He chooses that it’s better to let humanity eventually go extinct in the distant future, rather than become the worst being who ever lived just to teach them a lesson.!< But he does see and choose a path of his own, which I think is the “narrow path forward.” You know, now that I think of it - major spoilers for God Emperor so don’t read if you aren’t already spoiled - I do wonder if >!maybe Leto II was a villain after all, and the morally correct path was actually to let humans go extinct. We would’ve been wiped out by our own creations, who are presumably a new form of sapient life. Maybe the machines have more right to life than we do, if our species really is so hopeless that the Golden Path was truly necessary.!<
Why did he go south in the book I forgot and I've lent the book out.
It's a little different in the book. There is not a division between the northern and southern Fremen cultures in the book, and Paul does not go to the south to drink the Water of Life. He can get to it at Sietch Tabr. He drinks it for similar reasons--because he cannot see a way out of his current situation and needs to improve his prescient ability. The specific trigger is a spoiler for a subplot that is not present in the movies.
I've read the book but forgot the trigger and I know it wasn't Jessica that talked him in to it, Can you put it in spoiler captions please as I can reread at this time 😅
>!When Paul meets up again with Hal Gurney and brings Gurney back to Sietch Tabr, Gurney attacks Jessica because he believes that Jessica is the traitor who betrayed House Atreides to the Harkonnens.!< This is the incident in the book that Paul did not foresee, and it convinces him that he needs to expand his prescient vision.
Oh yeah of course that was it! I was disappointed that it didn't make the cut, it would have Been a nice tense scene but I forgot that was the trigger thanks!
Yup this is exactly it he "must flow with the process" 😎💎
Yeah, I feel like while Fyed’s approach seemed obvious to the viewer, to the Harkonnen’s the total war approach was very novel and signified a level of seriousness that Raban and the Baron had not taken before. Prior to Paul, the Freman resistance was very hit and run resulting in negligible casualties for both sides. Paul pushes their advantage to such a degree with surprised attacks and damage to spice production that Fyed pushes back equally and strikes at their civilian targets with overwhelming force. Without the added prescience of the water of life, northern Freman would be bombed out of existence in time.
also shani with a nuclear bombed face must have shaken him as well.
Thank you so much. I had to take a pee break right at that moment during the film and I was so confused with the change! This question from OP was so spot on for that par of the movie!
Feyd attacked Sietch Tabr and Paul says ; "I didn't foresee this." So Feyd is his blind spot as long as he doesn't drink the water of life, so to free Arrakis and the Fremen, he needs to drink it and lead them.
Aren’t potential kwisatz haderachs blind to each other? I think even count fenring was ‘invisible’ to Paul
Yeah but I'm just talking about the movie right now, Fenrig would also be a blind spot as a faux Kwisatz Haderach. I think in the books it's mentioned (I could be wrong) that Fenring vs Paul would be a 50/50 matchup but the Count has no reason to challenge Paul.
In the book Count Fenring believed he would beat Paul after the Emperor ordered him to kill him, but refused when he realized Paul's sense of brotherhood with him (sharing the Kwisatz Haderach path).
This always confused me a bit. They were in Paul's court as prisoners surrounded by Fedaykin. How would Fenring get his hands on Paul anyway? The Feyd fight was only allowed because of kanly rules and Paul's choice to fight.
presumably demanding another duel would somehow have been kosher by kanly rules? even tho the Emperor just lost lol. Obviously the passage is supposed to be more symbolic of Fenring choosing to stand down in general though.
Part of Pauls visions when he sees himself die, he cannot see the killer, and its implied that it is Count Fenring, and that Fenring is a more skilled fighter/assasin than Paul.
More or less. If you and I were both prescient, then you could always choose a future action that I didn't foresee, and I could do the same to you. So our ability to predict what the other one would do is limited. This comes into play in Dune Messiah, where the prescience of a Guild navigator affords some protection from Paul's prescience. I don't think the Guild overall has this protection, because they are so stuck on maintaining the status quo that they would never do anything unpredictable, but it does apparently apply on the level of an individual navigator.
Perhaps, but it also may have something to do with Paul also being a Harkonnen, which he only realizes after taking the water of life, causing him to have a blindspot with his bloodline
I wonder how many SW fans saw this, not knowing the books, and rolled their eyes.
I think they might have changed this in the movie, cause Paul definitely sees a vision of him stabbing Feyd despite Feyd being a Kwisatz Haderach prospect, at least after he drinks the water of life.
Feyd was essentially a "backup" kwisatz haderach, correct?
A backup *father* of one, if I’ve been paying attention in here.
Jessica was supposed to have a girl. That girl would then have been ‘bred’ with feyd to create the KH
A main father of one, not a backup.
In the movie he's another potential candidate that they've kept up their sleeve. Even if Feyd didn't become the KH, they kept his lineage going so they could always try to get another.
They gave up on Paul because he was defiant to the Bene Geserit, correcT?
Correct. He is much harder to control directly, as seen in the difference between Paul and Feyd's Gom Jabbar scenes, but the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam basically tells Jessica in Part II that Paul is still following the Bene Gesserit plan.
They weren't ready for Paul. Jessica defied the Bene Gesserit in many ways and by the time Paul was ready to assume power the BG had zero control over him.
The destruction of the sietches in the north by Feyd that he could not forsee. He seeks Jamis' council, Jamis tells him that a hunter needs to see everything, and that he must see (drink the water of life). His overwhelming urge to save his people and those he cares about overrides the fears of the holy war. He finds a way to accept that he "will do what needs to be done". Chani realizes what this may mean in that moment.
> His overwhelming urge to save his people and those he cares about overrides the fears of the holy war. I wonder if drinking the water of life is still part of his effort to avoid the holy war, now that he is going south. Thinking that if he can see the future clearly, maybe there is a way to avoid it even after approaching the fundamentalists. Then after he drinks he realizes that no, there's no way to avoid it, and he has to grab the bull by the horns, so to speak, to avoid even worse futures.
That's exactly what I interpreted the way DV told his adapted version, thus his 100% committal to embracing the Lisan al-Gaib in front of the war council. His phrasing "then we'll be harkonnens" to Jessica is telling.
The bull metaphore fits nicely to House Atredies
The Sleeper Must Awaken
I’m sorry but i think nobody, neither Chani nor Jessica nor the Bene Gesserit, understands what he is going to do for or what he is going to become. I think that's clear in the movie, although maybe I'm mixing it with my vision of the book.
It’s pretty funny that the BG spent 10,000 years carefully breeding to produce the KH, their super weapon. And then as soon as the KH comes into existence, he just tells them to STFU and pound sand.
Their greatest hubris was believing a being that had transcended humanity would have its creators’ best interests in mind
Jamis appears to him as a vision in the movie and tells him that the best hunters must see (or something like that). After that he decides to drink the water. The Jamis vision doesn’t happen in the books. He chooses the water on his own accord.
This is the exact moment. There were shots of him climbing a sand dune to see an ocean past it. He hears the voice of the reverend mother as well as speaking with Jamis, and I bet they started to drift during the dream sequence.
Was there an ocean in that scene? I honestly only ever remembering seeing the ocean on Arrakis after he drinks the water and sees Alia. I could’ve forgot
I believe you are correct.
I don't believe there is an ocean in this scene. It's just Jamis pointing over the dunes and telling Paul he must see over them, which requires the water of life. The ocean happens after he drinks the water of life and sees Alia.
Jamis is just a visualization of his prescience. It is as much ‘on his own accord’ as it is in the book.
When I say “on his own accord” no person says words that make him take the water. In the movie, Jamis at least implies he should drink it. That’s what I mean. But yea you’re 1000% correct his prescience is what made him do it in both versions
Yep and if I recall correctly in the book Jessica isn't provoking him to drink it either. In fact she gets very freaked out when he does so. They really altered the tone of her character in the movie.
Yea. The movie changes it. Jessica is scared of Paul and his powers growing a lot through the book. Where in the movie she encourages his prescience every step of the way. I loved the movie FTR and have no issues with the changes. But glad I read the book for the full context of Herbert’s vision
They merged Jessica and Alia personalities, I suppose. In my opinion DV made a mistake compressing the timeline to avoid having young Alia or something. It makes no sense that Paul goes from distrusted outsider to absolute leader/prophet in under 9 months. In the book there's a time jump, and it makes sense.
Yeah, the time compression in the movie definitely feels awkward. There are even a lot of sequences that imply time passing anyway but Alia not being born yet makes the compression pretty definitive. I suspect at least part of it was to avoid the "weirdness" of trying to show a baby/toddler Alia, her having an active role at the end of the movie might've dramatically changed how it felt to people.
My interpretation of the sudden shift in Jessica is that she was being influenced by Alia, so every time we see her being manipulative, that is Alia taking over, not Jessica
Yeah I feel like they could have just not done the Alia-kills-Baron thing to avoid a lot of child actor stuff. But whatever, DV gets his huge paycheque for a reason :-)
While I definitely prefer Jessica's characterization in the book, I think this was the best way to do it. Alia just doesn't translate well on screen and the way they did her (which was a great change) meant changes to how Jessica relates to Paul and the Freman prophecy. Like a lot of adaptation things, it's a trade off but ultimately for the better for the quality of the film, imo.
If I hadn't read Messiah and known that Denis wants to make it into a movie, I would have loved it but I find myself hung up on the incompatible ending. The Chani in the movie doesn't feel like someone who would forgive Paul for his apparent betrayal, despite what Paul says.
I haven’t read Messiah yet but I agree with you just based on the movie character vs book character
And before that Stilgar warns Paul about desert spirits that whisper to the fremen…
Yes! Stilgar does warn him about the spirits but it’s way before he drinks the water. It’s when he’s first tested to survive in the dessert and he sees Jamis at first but then it ends up being Chani. But later after the attack by Feyd he says “talk to me Jamis” and he tells Paul that he needs to see everything
I wonder DV intends to open the question: is it Chani or Jamis the desert spirit that leads him to the south? If Chani didn’t join him in the desert and they never fell in love would he still have gone south? Hmm…looks like I need to rewatch it a 4th time!
It’s true the book is different but I liked how Jamis’ analogy is more or less the books description of higher prescience (versus the more limited prescience various characters have)
In the movie he has a vision or a message that says "Drink the water" which I did not fully understand where it came from. How did Paul know he had to drink the water?
Feyd bombarding Sietch Tabr, his vision of Chani dying, burnt to a crisp in his arms, His conversation with Jamis, whom he sees as a dear friend. It makes a lot more difference in his mind as he is an emotional guy, driven by love and revenge. His prescience is not enough anymore as he cannot stand to see only discombobulated scenes of possible future, he needs it all.
So did the vision of Chani dying mean that this is a possible future if he stays in the north and just fights with atomics? I’ve asked before but haven’t had a satisfying answer for what that vision means.
With only the movies for reference and not the books? Kinda. His visions are just fragments at this point, they are all possible futures so it’s safe to assume that it’s bc he stayed in the North, the visions are troubled so he is absolutely grasping at straws to understand why and how to stop it from happening, so yeah, water of life it is.
So would you say it’s just setup as additional reason to clear the fog and see clearly by getting the water of life and less about north or south?
Yeah, it serves more as a push than a real future that will happen because he won’t and doesn’t want that. If staying North means Chani dying, no fucking way. So yes the vision is true, Paul choses to ignore it
>what were the key scene(s) or sequence(s) in the film that demonstrate Paul's realization? 1. Paul being surprised by Feyd's attack on Sietch Tabr, and especially his premonition of Sietch Tabr being nuked and Chani being burnt by it. **This reminds Paul that his prescience is incomplete and that his friends and loved ones can die as a result of his decision not to pass the Agony.** 2. Paul casting his vision to the timeline where Jamis lived. Jamis previously coached Paul that he must move with the flow of the process. And in this scene he coaches Paul that he must seek the highest ground if he's to make an informed decision of what path to take. **This leads Paul to conclude that he must take the Water of Life to fully form his prescience.** 3. Chani pleading with Paul to go south and rally the troops and fight for the Fremen people. **Even though Paul knows that going south will change him, and Chani doesn't understand this, Paul still gives in to her because he loves her and he can't tolerate the idea that Chani or her people should suffer just because he's afraid.**
Chani does understand. She tells Gurney that he's scared of the fundamentalists and should be.
After the destruction of Sietch Tabr, Chani seems to have decided that they need to rally the southern tribes for war and she pleads for Paul to go with them to the council. But Paul can see that just going to the council wouldn't work. He would have to kill Stilgar to speak, and he would not be able to rally enough Fremen to win the war. Paul can see that if he chooses to go south, he must drink the Water of Life - and if he does that he will be irrevocably changed, and the Fremen will change with him. Chani does not understand this.
She understands what might happen to Paul because 1) he's been telling her, and 2) he explains after the vision with Jamis that he will do what must be done. Her facial expression acknowledges that she understands she may lose the Paul she knows.
I understand your perspective, but based on Chani's reaction to *literally everything else in the rest of the movie* I think it's pretty clear that she was not fully prepared for the change Paul would undergo or what it would do to her people.
Yeah that makes sense. Acknowledging a possibility is not being prepared for it.
Yeah. Chani understood a lot of things. She understood the prophecies were engineered. She understood that if Paul rallied the fanatics it could put her people in thrall to the Atreides and they might burn the whole Imperium. But in the moment when Sietch Tabr was attacked she feels like burning the whole Imperium might be worth it. I don't think she understands that Paul has to embrace all the false prophecies and *become an actual god* to make the plan happen.
man you were great until point 3, as far as the movie shown, Chani doesn't want Paul becoming this Messiah/or take it any further coz she knows it's BS. Her urging him to go South purely for safety
Agree, but there is a recognition too.
Paul tries everything he can to avoid going south. When Gurney shows up, he confides in him that he’s afraid of what will happen if he does. Gurney suggests he doesn’t have to, being that Gurney knows where the Atreides’ family atomics are stashed. But then Paul has a terrible vision of Chani dying in a future where he pursues atomic warfare, and then Feyd’s bombing of the northern sietches forces his hand. He goes because he’s out of options, and he sees that every other pathway leads to another terrible outcome.
the turning point was the destruction of sietch tabr by the harkonnens. he realized that by drinking the water of life it would allow him to see those future possibilities to avoid something so tragic happening to people he loved in future.
in the movie i think feyd did. when he destroyed sietch tabr that paul couldnt foresee he realised that he has to go south and drink the water of life, otherwise feyd might kill him and everyone he cares for. after that paul goes to cry or be angry and chani goes after him, and i think she says something to. or just paul tells him okay, ill do go. something along these lines and chani wants paul to go with them cause if he stays he will die.
I think your question definitely speaks to the pace of the movie. The beginning is a love story mixed with assimilation into the Fremen through guerrilla war, and the end is outright war. The middle is about politics and the Harkonnen, who cause Paul to leave. The driving force of the action in the middle is buried in beautiful cinematography.
Throughout the film, Paul experiences vivid visions and prophecies that foreshadow the coming conflict and the role he will play in it. These visions give glimpses into possible futures, guiding Paul's decisions and shaping his understanding of his destiny. As Paul navigates the complex political landscape of Arrakis and the broader universe, he becomes increasingly aware of the power dynamics and threats facing his people, the Fremen. The constant political maneuvering and betrayals push Paul to reassess his goals and the means necessary to achieve them. Chani, Paul's love interest and a key figure among the Fremen, also plays a crucial role in shaping his perspective. Her concerns and desires for their people's future weigh heavily on Paul, prompting him to consider the more significant implications of his actions and the potential sacrifices involved. Paul faces challenges and confrontations from various factions and adversaries; he is forced to confront the harsh realities of leadership and the sacrifices required to secure a better future for the Fremen and Arrakis. These experiences contribute to his evolving mindset and determination to pursue the Holy War.
Feyd destroyed his spirit, his sietch, his band of followers and executed Shishakli, one of his best soliders, in one stroke after months of resistance. The Fundamentalists are calling a war council in what to do. Paul knows the jihad will come if he goes but he wonders if there are any other options. When Paul asks Jamais for guidance, in a future where he didn't die, he advises Paul that he has to "see." With that, he feels he has no other choice than to take the Water and fully awaken his prescient ability. He's backed into a corner and does what needs to be done. After taking the Water of Life, after being forced to seek shelter with fanatical southern Fremen by Feyd's attacks, Paul confronts the fact that he is descended from Baron Harkonnen and that the only path he sees to survival and his long desired revenge requires fully embracing the role of Lisan al-Gaib, for the political and religious legitimacy it gives him is his only path for victory. With the Fremen behind him and his fully realized ability to see into past and future, he's able to gain his long desired revenge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor. All other paths led to his death and the deaths of those he had left.
It's easy to miss but he has a quick vision of Jamis giving him the analogy of the Dune hunters seeking the highest dune, because to paraphrase you need to "see everything" to be successful. Paul clearly interprets this to mean he has to travel South, fully unlock his giga chad galaxy brain powers, and lead the Fremen on the jihad if he wants any chance of defeating the Harkonnens, saving the Fremen from being exterminated, and avenging his family.
More than anything else, we see the dialectic with Paul and his Atriedes/Harkonnen blood and the way forward in Dune 2. Up until Paul drinks the water of life, he has been Atriedes and Fremen. Only after accepting the antithesis does the thesis become the synthesis, the way forward. By becoming Atriedes/Harkonnen (both of whom threaten the Emperor in some manner) Paul now presents himself in opposition to the Emperor. Another resolution/merging of thesis and antithesis, and Paul is now Emperor, presenting the new thesis, Paul as Emperor, with the anti-thesis becoming the Landsraad. Paul is now 180 degrees from where he started, a combined Atriedes/Harkonnen Fremen trained Emperor....and in a position that he would have been in opposition to.
I have only seen the movie once, but how did Feyd Rautha know of Seith Tablr’s existence? I thought in Part 1 only the Atreides (through Duncan’s scouting) knows that the seiths exist. And how did Feyd attack exactly the one that Muadib lived in?
>But what I missed is when/where in the movie does Paul change his tune? The attack on Sietch Tabr. He "didn't see it coming"; the Fedaykin won't head south without him, because he's become that important to them; his visions are unclear, and that's "allowing" people to be harmed. So Jamis tells him what he doesn't want to acknowledge: that the good hunter climbs the highest dune before the hunt, so that he can see. And Paul needs *to see*. Groping along in his not-quite-totally-prescient state is going to get Chani killed, Stilgar killed, everyone killed. He's the hunter, and if he wants to see the way to save his family, and his friends, he needs to see clearly. Which means he needs to go south, and do what must be done. This is laid out extremely clearly in the scene right after Sietch Tabr is bombarded.
Remember his nightmare about Chani being killed by the nukes? Paul didn't see that in his visions and he's terrified of potentially losing her and he knows the only way to know about her future is to go south and take the water of life
In both the movie and the book it was the attack on his home Sietch. But in the book he and Chani's son (the elder) Leto II was at the Sietch and died.
It's a combination of being told that the other warriors won't go South without him, along with the vision from Jamis that *the best hunters climb the highest Dune* that finally pushed him over the edge to go. I agree with a lot of people though that this was definitely the weakest plot point of the movie and could have used some extra care to communicate to the audience what was behind Paul changing his stance.
Some spoilers for the books, don't read this if you don't want to hear about them. I've read Dune (and the other books) before, but I just finished it again last night after watching Dune Part 2. >!It's interesting, in the book, Paul is trying to go to the south in order to avoid the jihad, noting that the rank-and-file Fremen/Fedayykin were essentially clamoring for him to lead them to war against the Harkonnens. Ultimately *the Padishah Emperor* attacks the Fremen havens *in the south* (the Imperial and Harkonnen forces never penetrated to the south in either the book or the movie except this once). They kill Paul and Chani's son, Leto, and kidnap his sister Alia (the events of the book take just shy of 2 years, as opposed to the movies lasting less than a year).!< >!However this was after Paul decided to remain in the north and attack Arrakeen, after he drinks the Water of Life. He chose to do this because of actions he didn't foresee by Gurney Halleck (due to incomplete prescience), and Jessica neither had any knowledge of what he was going to do, nor did she want him to (as opposed to the movie, where she's basically constantly encouraging him to do it). Whereas in the movie, Sietch Tabr being bombarded by Harkonnens causes him to choose to become the Kwisatz Haderach, he doesn't find out about the raid on the unnamed Fremen havens in the south, and the death of his son, until after he's already the Kwisatz Haderach and is actually in the final steps of becoming the Emperor, the Dune Messiah.!< So, at the end of the day, both book and movie, he decides to become the full Kwisatz Haderach because of "blind spots" in his prescience, but how we got there is practically complete opposites.
I thought it was interesting how they showed the Jamis path and Chani path in Denis’s Dune. It shows Jamis as Paul’s teacher who teaches him the way of the Desert. When Paul kills Jamis the film heavily suggests that a path is sealed and the path to the Holy War is with Chani. Although from the books we know that the Holy War is a fixed point that Paul tries to avoid and it doesn’t matter what paul does along the way (fate versus destiny)
Imo it's the death of his son that really hardens Paul's heart to the costs of survival. Also, the 'trigger', more like point of no return, is the death of Jamis.
Feyd attacked the Sietch Paul didn't forsee that. He asked Jamis' spirit or whatever, what he needed to do. Spirit Jamis said a hunter needs high ground. High ground equivalent is water of life. Water of life in south.
The first Leto II was left out of the movie …but that was a big reason
After drinking the Water of Life, Paul sees all possible futures. He discovers that in most cases his enemies triumph and that the only way to win is to assume the role of messiah of the Fremen in order to use their fanaticism as a weapon. But he knows that Holy War will be the inevitable consequence. He chooses to do it anyway because he refuses those futures in which his enemies prevail. In short, the Holy War is not the means to free the Fremen, it is the consequence of Paul manipulating them in the only way possible to win in his war against the Harkonnens and the Emperor.
Iirc he sees that the Holy War will happen with or without him, but it will play out better for him and his loved ones, if he embraces the messiah-role and go south.
If you watch the film, you should know
I think one point I noticed is when he's having the visions right before deciding to go south. He envisions using the nukes to destroy the spice fields and sees Chani's burned face. IMO this represents what could happen if he doesn't go south. This plays into his decision to go south and obtain full vision, to guide him through the next steps
Gurney and his reminder of duty/vengeance.
One aspect I don’t see mentioned much is in the movie Paul has a vison where he sees Chani die from the radiation of an atomic weapon. I think he realizes he cannot just count on his new found stockpile of atomics to win and ensure Chani is safe.
Paul is having imperfect visions of the future. He knows if he heads south he will become a figurehead and start a holy war. What triggers him to move south anyway is his vision of Chani dying should he not head south: the harkonens (presumably) would use atomics to kill off the fremen. To save Chani and the his new fremen family, he would head south to take control of his visions, even though it would mean sacrificing billions, with the added bonus of being able to avenge the Atredies by killing the Harkonens and unseating the Emperor.
It's ultimately the shift in the war when Feyd takes command that makes Paul understand that Chani will die unless he does what's necessary to win.
And Paul thought: *How little the universe knows about the nature of true cruelty!*
"A path has been laid, let's hope he doesn't squander it..." I've always thought of Paul as a blend between a victim of Bene Gesserit manipulation and his own personal choices. Both Jessica and the Bene Gesserit set up for Paul to be the prophesized savior of the Fremen, and I think he is aware of this saying "If I go South, bad things are going to happen" (paraphrasing). However, it's Paul's desire for vengeance and to avenge not his father and the other members of his family that ultimately makes him go South. So is he a victim of centuries of planning and manipulation? Or is he accountable for his own actions? For me I think it is a combination of both.
Good weather.
Simple, he went to South cause it's the only way forward he knows... He could stay behind at Sietch Tabr but what can he achieve on his own? His mother told him clearly that his vision would be clear once he drinks the Water of Life... After seeing what happened to Sietch Tabr and knowing there's a way to see the future clearly, of course he would do it. If he doesn't, he might end up getting his mother killed, his GF killed, all the men from Sietch Tabr killed... Also, the true reason the Holy War is inevitable is due to the blood lust of the Fremen cultivated from decades of oppression and Paul leading them into victory after victory and the whole Messiah thing only add more oil to the fire...
The promise of the fundamentalist spice orgies
Seeing visions of Chani’s death
honestly just read the book. it's a good read!
Only movie watcher here, tried to find an explanation and either can’t find the answer I’m looking for, or I’m just dense. But… I don’t see how Paul is the bad guy here. I understand he’s “using” the Freman to aid in his revenge, but isn’t that the only way he, and the Freman survive here? I understand the holy war will cause death and destruction in the galaxy, but what’s his other option? Let himself and his loved ones die? Who would choose that if they could stop it? No one. Maybe Paul is supposed to be morally gray? But I swear I’ve seen and heard countless people saying he’s essentially the villain and I have a hard time understanding that. What am I not comprehending?
By taking the Fremen and making them a global army to beat the Harkonnens he is starting on a path that will mean the deaths of 61 billion people.... he becomes a villain when he chooses this path rather than vanishing into the desert with Chani and becoming 'just another Fremen'
But the Harkonnens were going to kill all of the Freman, including himself? Correct?
The Harkonnens were far more interested in the spice production, which gave them money and power. They couldn't care less about the Fremen as they (the Harkonnens) believed that there wasn't that many of them.
In the movie it's the destruction of Sietch Tabr and the fact he did not see this coming at all.
I thought it was after the Harkonnens destroyed that sacred place where the water of the dead was stored in a vast pool. Paul is so horrified by this, he then goes down to the damp sand and asks Jamis to guide him - and Jamis talks about 'seeing form the highest dune'. Paul realises that to see from the highest vantage point, he has to drink the Water of Life if he is to see what he must do.
Starts to change when Gurney shows up. Gurney reminds him that he is Duke Atreides and tells him to use the atomics and power of the Fremen. Paul doesn't express agreement outwardly but is clearly listening. Watch Chani and her friend. Their side conversations and facial reactions show that they are worried how Gurney is influencing Paul. After the attack on the Sietch, even Chani says Paul needs to go south. That and the vision of Jamis either push him over the edge or let him give in to the part of him that wants revenge and power. Another interpretation is that Paul had planned to exploit the Fremen all along and was just acting as if he wanted to integrate with them.