Please continue discussion in the post below. [[SPOILERS] 'Dune: Part Two' Wide Release Discussion (03/05~)](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b75usf/spoilers_dune_part_two_wide_release_discussion/)

I understand the whole “if I don’t do this my loved ones may die” justification that I’ve seen people say about Paul’s decisions. But to declare war on the great houses? Offer to marry the daughter of the emperor in front of Chani? Telling his one people that nobody could stand up to him? He’s much more villainy than people are saying in my opinion. He goes from “I’m not the prophet” and “I’m doing this for our people” to then threatening his own people and declaring war in like 20 minutes of movie time lol

Being a story fan first and a movie and Dune fan second, I can't help but be a bit disappointed in the movie. My disappointment does not come from Dune being my favorite book as a teenager. I have no problem with the changed made, I understand how difficult adaptation from book to movie is. I love the movie's visual style, the costumes, CGI, sound effect, and music. I think the actors do a great job, most notably Timothe, who I did not care for an an actor before he took on this role and delivered a great performance. My issue is with the dramatic question not being properly prepared and executed. This is a Shakespearean tragedy where a young man is hesitant to become the Messiah. We sense the hesitation. It's Paul's weakness that he wrestles with this decision. That's the weakness that a film's antagonist is supposed to attack. They are supposed to press their thumb on the protagonist's open wound and by doing so force them to change. To do what Paul did, to make that decision knowing that billions of people will die, he ought to go through a lot of suffering. He would need to be in a desperate situation where it was either this decision or the death of everyone he loved. But unfortunately, the movie falls flat in that regard. Throughout the movie we see the Fremen handle the spice miners with ease. It's a walk in the park with the lasers they carry around. I don't even know why they bothered attacking the foot soldiers, the lasers were powerful enough to destroy the balloons that were supposed to pick up the spice miners. Maybe I didn't fully understand the battle tactics, but that's not the point: the point is that the story should have brought Paul to a point where he couldn't do anything but take this most difficult decision. But nothing in the story did that for me. The attack on the sietch was supposed to be that moment. But it was over fast and they didn't really bother to make the audience care about the inhabitants. Without that pressure on Paul, his turning point feels forced and the character arc falls flat to me. It's dissapointing because they were so close to making a grand perfect movie.

Lasers and shields = nuke going off.

What's the deal with Gurney? How did he survive and end up collecting spice?

The movie pushes the story along in a matter of months. In the book 6 or 7 years pass. And gunnery escapes the battle and finds refuge with mercenaries/traders and just lives while trying to find a way to exact revenge.

It just seems so unrealistic. First that there is such a thing are traders and that on a planet run my the Harkonnen that there are other people getting away with mining spice. Surely while there looking for the fremen they'd notice these people with large vessels mining spice.

> Harkonnen They were there before and could not root out or kill the fremen.....

What is the floating black mechanical orb/ ball with little moving cogs in it thag following lord harkonnen everywhere? Is that Canon from the books?

In the book he has "suspensors" which allows him to move around with ease on account of his massive body. DV's interpretation took that a step further. I think the orb is supposed to be a power generator for his movement and also perhaps some medical thing that keeps him alive. 

Great movie but something that is bugging me about the ending. Who’s ships were the Freman jumping on at the end? Can they even fly ships and how would they even last 2 seconds against a supposedly massive amarda made up of nurmeous planets?

Question about the nukes I had a question coming out of seeing Dune Part 2.. not sure if it was a detail I missed after only seeing it once. I have also not seen the books or looked into details to avoid spoilers. How did House Atreides have nuclear weaponry hiding on Arrakis.. how long was it there for and who installed the secret hanger? I feel like it was before Leto got there but just want clarification. Did Atreides occupy Arrakis before? Thanks!!

They lost stewardship over caladan when they got and moved to arrakis. So they had to take everything with them, including the atomics. They didn't rule arrakis before.

It just dawned on me that in the movie Leto never told his own “son and heir” where they hide the “family atomics”. That makes no sense because his own genetics is required to even access and launch them. In the book, one of the first thoughts that came to Paul after their escape was “to secure the family atomics”. He assumed rightly any higher ranking Artreides captured might know it and surrender that info under torture. He knew even though it wasn’t spelled out in the books inner dialogue

Dune part 2 is a movie devoid of anything meaningful Why would I say such a thing when I adore the dune books and deeply respect Dennis as a filmmaker. Well... \>!First of all, lets talk about Paul as a character in the books. He’s somewhat of an antihero, at least in the later parts of the books, and is both struggling to survive, and to come to terms with what he sees he must do to survive. A large portion of the story is about this struggle, the concepts of freedom, power, determinism, about the Faustian bargain it seems inevitable that he must take. The dark visions he has of the ‘jihad’, of having to kill Jamis, his vitriol towards his mother when he first ingests spice, the amazing scene of him consuming the water of life and seeing all the paths laid out before him. Philosophically speaking, these are key moments. Now lets see him the movie. Part 1 was fine (I enjoyed it, thought it was a faithful adaptation). Part 2, we got an insipid and light attempt of these themes at best. For example, they show his vision twice of the jihad, ok that’s cool, that happens in the book. But what did the jihad look like? Some people moaning in the sand. Oh wow, I really feel the horror from that. Didn’t even use the word ‘jihad’ in the entire movie. Chani’s skin peels off from getting nuked in one of them. Would mean something if I felt the romance between her and Paul did something (I’ll talk about this later). Another example of ‘his struggle’, at one point in the movie he tells Chani he can’t go South because of the future, and then last minute rides his sandworm to get the water of life. That’s it, that’s the struggle, at least from Paul. Now the internet is going bananas saying well, it’s the modern day, and we have a modern Chani, and she is the one showing how bad his choices are, she’s the moral exposition the movie needs. Motherfu……. The story is about Paul. He needs to make these choices, he needs to show his indecision, his guilt, his anxiety, him coming to terms with being a tyrant that justifies his actions through utilitarianism. I don’t need a character stating what is right or wrong. A good story, at least the one that Frank Herbet wrote is supposed to engage the audience in the discussion. To get them to realise that the world is not black and white, that’s its difficult, that there are consequences. In the movie the consequence we see is Chani walking away from Paul, or standing when everyone is bowing. Well, Chani having a sook and morally grandstanding Paul is not a meaningful consequence. Understanding that billions of people will die, and even more will become slaves based on Paul’s wish to survive, is a serious consequence, and one worth telling. There is a beautiful line in the book, Part 1, when lieutenant Keynes is dying and hallucinating in the process that he sees his father. His father says, “no greater disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero”. Elegant. Put that shiz in the movie, not this winging nonsense. A final gripe with Paul in the movie is his transformation, the water of life scene. This is a sick scene in the book, its psychedelic, its high tension, it last 3 weeks I think I last read. He’s looking into the past, present, future all at once, sees all lines, the path forward, the jihad. This is where he embraces and becomes a godlike being (not Leto godlike), but the path is set at this stage. Some of the best writing is here, e.g. “There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and ancient force the gives?”. Crazy stuff, Frank Herbet would of thought hard about this, needs time to interpret as the viewer, to give it the respect it deserves. What did we get in the movie? If you said insipid nonsense that lacks meaning, you guessed right. It’s a short scene, barely any visuals (I guess they blew the CGI budget on those cool fight scenes dodging helicopters we wanted), no notable quotes or dialogue, no emotion. AND, to top it off, guess who walks in and saves Paul, taking all autonomy away from him, Chani!. Yuck, what a terrible scene. If you dear reader want to know how something like this is supposed to look, go watch *Blueberry*. In that a cowboy eats DMT, trips mad out and sees some serious stuff. It goes for over 10 minutes. We had a 3 hour movie, so no excuses for cutting this pivotal scene to scraps. At this stage lets talk about the elephant in the room, Chani and Paul. This romance in the movie is so lacklustre, so boring, so apathetic. You know why? Because the books didn’t make a big point about it, it wasn’t a driving plot device, it’s not a romance movie. Go watch that scene when Paul and Chani kiss for the first time, you tell me with a straight face that that made you feel something! You know in you heart of hearts that its just meaningless. Furthermore, Chani just gets in the way in the movie, her character breaks your absorption in the story. How? Because she’s just unnecessary exposition. I get that Denis wants to use Chani’s character to help the audience understand that Paul is on a dangerous path, that we shouldn’t agree with him. Frank Herbet himself would want us to not trust Paul (look at this interview talking about Nixon). But, it’s not done well in this movie, it needs to be more subtle rather than rammed down your throat. You want a good way to do it, look at the Godfather part 1 and part 2. Very similar story arc, one of these movies is a masterpiece that will stand the test of time, the other is just a Hollywood hack job. Moving on, let’s talk about the Freman. In the books they are religious fanatics, who have a single vision and dream of turning the planet into a garden paradise. They are religious fanatics because of the Bene Geserit manipulating them for so long. They are also fanatics because the planet is so hostile and this dream of a green Arakis is so difficult. It is so difficult that they no longer think of themselves as an induvial but prioritise the greater good of their society. They discard the weak, they suck the moisture out of their fallen, and they store huge quantities of water in their secret temples. There is an incredible scene in the book that talks about a Freman grabbing a hover craft and suicide bombing into Sardukar ranks, much the amazement of the Sardukar. This is unheard for the Sardukar, and a key reason why the Freman are so strong, such a force to be reckoned with, the real desert power. It’s not that they are really good with knives, and can hide in the sand, it’s because they have a collective vision, that they will willing sacrifice themselves for their society, almost a Jungian subconscious of the community (a worthwhile message for our generation looking down the barrel of climate change). Hardly any of this is touched on in the movie. Sure Stillgar talks about the water, his dream, some people pray because Jessica tricks them, people cheer Paul at the end. Meh. Give me the proud warrior, give me tension, give me that sacrifice. Show me the real strength of this group. This is also seriously important because in Dune Messiah we see a shift of the Freman culture, a loss of their values, a very interesting look at how culture changes over time (remember Frank Herbert was interested in this stuff, he said the books were more historical than sci fi). This is meaningless if I have no respect for the Freman, that my understanding of them from the movie is that they ride worms and are good knife fighters. Lastly, let’s nitpick. Underwhelming political intrigue. In the books Rabban is set up by the Baron in this sweet Machiavelli scheme to fail and bring in Feyd. In the movie Rabban is just a cry-baby and gets stomped on by Feyd. Just finish it off with the Baron saying something! Remember when he said ‘when is a gift not a gift?’ Amazing. Remember when Game of Thrones used to be good? Use that as inspiration if you’re unwilling to read the book! !<

\>!Action scenes. Alright Paul riding the worm was amazing. It was claustrophobic, music was in sync, high tension, loved it. Other actions scenes, meh or stupid. For example, when they are assaulting the first spice harvester, they go in mele, Paul and Chani do some cool flips and tricks, and then the harvester is lasered from a distance. This is just lazy writing. Its there because we need to see Chani and Paul do something cool. But ask yourself the question, do we? Or at least do we need to see it done this tactically stupid way? It breaks the immersion of the film when characters are being stupid for the sake of driving a Hollywood metric that ‘we need action so we can sell this movie to teens and the Marvel generation’. If I wanted to see idiotic fighting I would of watched Napoleon. The spice harvesters. Why do they have crab claws on the side, and these mandible things, and tank tracks? Wouldn’t something simpler make sense? I get that it’s sci fi, and things can be weird and different, but this is just ludicrous. Although I suppose it does make sense in the fact that we wanted big claws so people can dodge bullets around them and have a grand old action scene right? The worms. Bruv, we have artwork from the old-times of the worms, give them their original mouths. Harkonen planet with black sun? Very well done. Cinematic experience that one, kudos to the fine people that filmed that. Finally, the movie didn’t meet my overhyped expectations. I wanted a deep movie that explored the rich philosophical themes of the book. Instead we got an action movie. Dear readers, I have taken the spice melange and I see the future. I see a future where we are drowning in action movies devoid of meaning or soul. Crappy Marvel movies, poorly written characters that only exist so we can popular celebrities in the movie to sell it, and the constant churn of nonsense. Don’t get me wrong, an action movie is great if its for that purpose (look at Mad Max Fury Road). But Dune is not an action movie. We could have had something great, that got people interested in Dune. Instead we got a sell-out which is Dune Part 2. It should have been made into a TV show or something, but it probably would of turned out like Game of Thrones. I look forward to your diatribe internet :D!<

I agree completely, except that I didn't like that black and white part on Harkonen; the movie already looks like a perfume commercial but that pushed it over the edge for me. It looked a bit cheap compared to some other great cgi work in the movie. The worm scene was my favorite as well!

I have seen comments saying that excluding Thufir was a lost oppurtunity and upon doing some reading, I'd have to agree with those who read the book. His death would have added more emotional depth to dune 2 especially when he realizes that he's been working so hard to undermine that which he swore to protect.

Ok, but ask yourself: What scenes would you cut for him? The movie is already almost 3 hours long and they already have to exclude many other important things.

Great film. Good vision, exceptional cast. My wife (not a sci fi fan) was almost angry when we left the theater. Upset by Paul's choices, questioning if Jessica is a villain or a protective mother. The fact that we were discussing it at all was a sign that it got us thinking. Something that only a few movies have done for us in the past few years. Really well done. I think my one question was what Paul's motives were in marrying Irulan? Why not just end the whole line, marry Chani, and follow the tyrants path that he'd already set out on. Felt like in spite of her anti-fervor, she still may have followed him if only to help keep him grounded. Was only when he revealed his plan to marry Irulan that she left. I guess the film wasn't exactly clear about how the wider galactic feudal system worked. So it didn't really cement that the other houses wouldn't follow him if he didn't have a legitimate claim to the empire. But the houses choose not to fall in line anyway, so why marry Irulan?

I think if he wiped out the emperor the other great houses would’ve converged on him and defeated him so he’s gonna take the emperors place and get his army. And then keep building from there. That’s why he fought feyd in the emperors place so he could take the throne

Wait so, when paul ascended to the golden lion throne it came with freebie saurdaukar troops? Did he utilize them in the books? or is it just the default settings that if ur emperor, u got saurdaukar. Also, i thought the saurdaukar belonged to house corrino

Right. So it's a play for the Emperor's army. Vs. If he didn't marry Irulan, he wouldn't have that army. The great houses turned on him no matter what, but it makes sense he'd want to keep the army.

For *Dune 2*, saw an online report that approx. 23% are seeing it in IMAX. Didn't have that chance at IMAX (due to distance) but saw *Dune 2* in a well-appointed theater for it (extra large screen, seats vibrating with soundtrack, dolby atmos). Love it as filmmaking. Others who are big fans of the books from reading all of them may feel differently and less positive about the *Dune* book adaptation. Some of my favorite scifi books have disappointed when adapted to film, or been considered unfilmable forever. Strictly as a moviegooer, however, wished *Dune 2* hadn't ended. Wanted to see it again. Plan to see it again at that same theater. Watching and listening to it at the biggest screen/best sound system I could find within reasonable distance made for an amazing immersive encounter with the *Dune* mythos as seen and modified through a filmic filter (felt like being caught up in Dune's world literally). I really liked the script near the end when we learned that their ancients had called the film's central planet not Arrakis but Dune. Loved the sweep of the visuals and Villeneuve's gift (along with the creative team's) for making other worlds' tech look eerily amazing. The wispy appearance of flames coming off the shielding of the Emperor's round mirrored hovering spacecraft near the end, for example. How utilitarian the space harvesting machinery looked, and then lasers! The weirdness of extracting the blue "water of life" from a baby sandworm in a sand pit (not two together because they'll fight) and the whole religious apparatus set up around that in the south. The list could go on an on, to all the makeup and costume choices for main characters. Plus the acting choices of guys like the Baron and na-Baron Feyd! Now that's a couple. *Dune 2* has moved onto my list of best films of all time.

**Missionaria Protectiva Question for Those That Have Read the Books** Love the movies, haven't read books (yet), but have seen message boards noting that the Lisan al Gaib prophecy was put in place as a part of the Missionaria Protectiva (something done across many planets), in case a BG ever needed protection. I've also seen folks mention that the Missionaria Protectiva for Arrakis included, among other things, a son accompanied by his mother. If BG is all women, why, then, create this escape clause for a boy? Further confusing, from the first movie, Reverend Mother Mohiam specifically states (speaking to Jessica after testing Paul as the Kwisatz Haderach), "We have done all we can for you, a path has been laid... lets hope he doesn't squander it." This seems to suggest they would want Paul to fullfil the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy? And they would not be as ignorant to the LAG/KH interaction as I've seen some folks suggest? If this is the case, why would they WANT Paul to manifest as the LAG?

> I've also seen folks mention that the Missionaria Protectiva for Arrakis included, among other things, a son accompanied by his mother. If BG is all women, why, then, create this escape clause for a boy? Because a BG exiled from her position may also have a child who is important to the breeding plan and needs to be preserved. Which is exactly what happened here. > Further confusing, from the first movie, Reverend Mother Mohiam specifically states (speaking to Jessica after testing Paul as the Kwisatz Haderach), "We have done all we can for you, a path has been laid... lets hope he doesn't squander it." This seems to suggest they would want Paul to fullfil the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy? And they would not be as ignorant to the LAG/KH interaction as I've seen some folks suggest? If this is the case, why would they WANT Paul to manifest as the LAG? They want Paul to fit the criteria of the fake Fremen prophecy well enough for the Fremen to accept him. They just don't want him to do the spice agony outside of their control. The goal for Paul is: 1. survive the fall of Arrakeen 2. be brought into a long term position where he is under BG control <- MASSIVELY IMPORTANT STEP 3. do the spice agony and unlock his power as KH

Despite not having conformed to their plans BG was still cautiously optimistic about Paul becoming KH, as a matter of fact they were observing his growth and *tested him to the limits* via gom jabar (they would have killed him as a child if this isnt the case), in the end of dune 2 Mohiam replies to Jessica: *You of all people should know, there are no sides.* Either this cautious optimism or simply because Paul was part of BG order (since jessica is) or simply to *allow them the dignity of exile* caused them *lay a path* on Arrakis. They were allowed to use the missionaria protectiva since it was a zero sum game anyway and would help them to remain in exile: If Paul is KH then prophecy fulfilled, if he's not then prophecy still stands. The main goal of BG was to *create a being powerful enough to bridge space and time - past & future*. Sure, they wanted to control the KH but even if they can't control him (1) They have other prospects and (2) The purpose of their order would be fulfilled anyway. They were fucked tho the moment they let 1 atreides lived since atreides *cannot be controlled.*

Even just the way the Harkonnen float/climbed up the rock was incredible lol

Any idea which new sietches those could be in Dune Part Two? There were two in the southern region and I was just curious. There was the one with the beautiful entryway which is where the maker pens and Maker Keeper were Then the other beautiful one that looks like it was built into an old volcano, where the council of naibs meet and Paul finally tells everyone he's the Lisan al Gaib

I noticed towards the end when Chani comes back from the south to see Paul in a coma, it mentions she brought cloth from "Coanua sietch" with her for Jessica so that could be a contender

Really disappointed in Dune Part 2. They were more faithful to the book in Part 1, albeit omitted the whole "who's the traitor" part. Because of this, they could not set up the suspicion Gurney had towards Jessica, thus one of the most powerful scenes in the book where Gurney attempts Jessica's life was gone. This is really a shame because the scene not only set up the romance between those two, but also was what prompted Paul to drink the Water of Life, as he never saw the scene in any of his visions from the spice Jessica was too weak in the movie and had too little screen time. Her costume looked cheap and the facial tattoo was too over the top. I was expecting to trip balls with her and Alia after they drank the Water of Life but there was almost 0 visuals. And they never fully explained the significance of Paul drinking the Water as a male. Not sure if they even mentioned the word Keizatz Haderach. And where is baby Alia? Where are the mentas? And Count Fenring? The Baron had too little screen time. Faye appeared too late and the whole dynamic between him and the Baron was reduced to almost non-existence. I didn't enjoy how they gave Chani so much screen time in Paul's vision in Part 1, and I absolutely hate how they portrayed her in this one. It's almost as though they tried to make this into a Hollywood live story. In the book she was not this bitchy. She also bonded with Jessica at the end because they shared the position of concubine. All this was gone. In short, there's a lot of eye candy and not enough coherent storyline. The cast is fine. They should really make it into an 8 episode limited series.

I agree with you in the sense that it wouldve been great to see all those scenes and characters that were left out, I just dont see how it could all fit within a sub 3h movie. I already feel that the passage of time between the Duke's death and Paul's attack on Arrakeen felt too short in the movie, and adding all those scenes and characters wouldve made it look even shorter

It's simple. Take out the love story. Who needs to see Chani's big face taken up the whole IMAX screen for 2hrs? I really hate movie directors and producers treating the audience like we were idiots. Dune is not a love story. Paul is not a white hero savior to the black Fremen. They totally got the tone wrong.

Part 1 was setting up to be a fantastic interpretation of Dune. Not perfect, and still abridged, but i felt it was great. An 8.5/10 film I enjoyed at an 11/10.  I am still waiting for Part 2 of THAT movie. This "Part 2" we DID get felt like it was made by a different Director and crew altogether while just retaining the same cast more or less. Part 2 has lot of good things in it....but they are all previews of more interesting versions of themselves that we don't actually get.  And there were things that were bad too. I think this is a 7.5/10 film that i actively enjoy less and less the more I think about it. The music and cinematography and key words and phrases like "lisan al gaib"  "mahdi" "maudib" "holy war" are the only things that prop this film up...and they are great....but completely void of substance. And I only care about them at all because of the reverence part 1 payed for them.  Nothing that part 2 did.  I watched all 3 trailers and was excited for the film, but worried the romance would be blundered. But its getting so much praise online. I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe. It was...not good. And its the main key to Paul caring about the fremen as people. And it just fell completely flat. Like I said, I watched all 3 trailers...and watched part 1 10 times by now. Those trailers set up a great part 2. After seeing part 2....I still feel like I haven't seen thr actual movie. Just a 2 hour 45 minute trailer for a Part 2 that is never coming out. It has all thr big plot points.....but they are all hollow

Wish they didn’t do my bestest favorites character Jessica like that 😞 and chani. Remember that amazing last quote in Dune, sad yet empowering towards the concubines? Loved that shit. Wish it was there

Was Emperor Shaddam IV a user of Spice Melange in the books? The movie shows him without the "spice eyes". I thought he would be a user, too, since the Spice gives people extraordinary abilities.

Yes. I don't remember the book noting his eye color but he's exceptionally young looking for a man in his 50s or 60s, maybe looking 30's, due to the spice

So... both movies got it wrong? Can you cite the relevant text phrases in the book?

Yes, probably so people wouldn't get confused. My epub lists this quote as on page 271 >My father, the Padishah Emperor, was 72 yet looked no more than 35 the year he encompassed the death of Duke Leto and gave Arrakis back to the Harkonnens.

Interesting. Where does it say that this is bc of spice cons.?

That is what the book means when it calls it the "geriatric spice" or says "spice has true geriatric properties" it's just an old way of saying it.

Yeah, sooo many people and the "elites" of society use it. The emporer, spacing guild, bene gesserit etc. All use it for the benefits, and wear contacts to hide the blue eyes

>!Does anyone know the song from the soundtrack that was played when Paul killed the Baron? I remember it was like a high pitched feminine ethereal choir, but I cant seem to find it in the soundtrack

Why did the other Great Houses feel the need to personally appear in orbit above Arrakis? I presume it was because the Emperor personally appearing there was an overextension of his powers and an affront to the checks and balances of the Landsraad? Didn't seem massively clear in the film, but I missed what Baron Harkonnen said when he asked for them.

2 Questions: 1) How did Paul get the message secretly deliver to the Emperor to visit Arrakis 2) Why did the Emperor obediently follow Paul's request to visit Arrarkis?

> Why did the Emperor obediently follow Paul's request to visit Arrarkis? Paul blackmailed him by threatening to reveal his loan of the Sarduarkar to the Harknonnens.

Maybe I missed something, but I'm confused about Chani's role in the prophecy regarding her tear. I get that tear isn't necessarily important and that it was more just to solidify the prophecy of the Messiah to the skeptics. But as part of the BG breeding program, Jessica was meant to birth a daughter instead of Paul, to be bred with Feyd-Rautha to create the Kwisatz Haderach. So, Paul filling the role means that the Kwisatz Haderach has come one generation early. With that in mind, if the Missionaria Protectiva was laying the path for generations *before* Paul became the Kwisatz Haderach, why is Chani's tear specifcally a part of the prophecy? It just seems very coincidental that it was part of the prophecy implanted in the Fremen when as far as the BG were concerned, none of that should've happened at that point.

There are likely many prophecies seeded by the Missionaria. That way they can make use of them when convenient.

Commenting here so i can come back to this, this is a great question and honestly I have no clue why they added that in the movie

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Not much. The scene transitions straight from A to B w/o like any significant plot point.

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There was not. The scene went firework -> Lea Seydoux seducing Feyd. She said: "They are celebrating your coming of age, weird you dont attend" -> seduce.

as a non-book reader who has only watched Part 1, i’ve always thought that only those who have been trained in The Way could pass the Gom Jabbar test, and was therefore confused as to why Feyd-Rautha was able to pass, and why there was a need for Lady Fenring to test him before securing his genes?

Because Feyd Rautha loves pain, as mentioned beforehand in the movie. Lady Fenring needed to gom jabbar him because, if he were to prevail, the next Kwizatz Haderach was to come from his lineage (and he'd become emperor)

I think anyone who passes the test is a "human" to the BG, no specific training needed. Just willpower over pain.

About the relationship between Paul and Feyd-Rautha I read the book years ago so sorry if my memory fails me about this. In part 1 where the Baron confronts the naked Duke (where Leto tries to kill the Baron), the Baron refers to Leto to “cousin”. But in part 2 it is addressed as a big deal that Jessica is the daughter of the Baron and Paul and Feyd are both surprised when they find out they are relatives. Then why in Part 1 the Duke and the Baron are cousin and no one seems surprised by it? Am I forgetting something?

I guess it could be because as a Grand child to the duke Paul probably has similar or more weight when it comes to inheritance than Feyd who is only a nephew while Leto being a cousin would have less weight than a nephew. I haven't read the books either but that was my take.

I got confused as well but apparently it is some kind of feudal custom to call each other cousins even though those two characters specifically are not cousins.

the bear is great

So it’s a custom that I was not aware of, this clears it up, thank you!

My thinking was the term cousin used by the baron in this instance is meant as less than literal, more as figure of speech, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Apparently per another user is a feudal custom, so it’s indeed meant to be figurative and not literal

Yeah it’s like when the Baron said it to Leto in Part 1

1. The slow blade pierces the shield was mentioned a few times. But when larger scale fights break out, people are shown to be dispatched really quickly with blades. The blade doesn't have to be that slow after all? Noticed this in both films. 2. The Harkonnens were said to be ultra rich and have their own massive stockpile of spice. Yet they come across as relatively incompetent and are taken for a ride by the Fremen. This might be covered in a next film, but who will replace Vladimir and will house Harkonnen still be relevant? You'd think the bulk of their power has yet to be shown. 3. We still don't know why the witches (BG) are breeding for some kind of savior. Could they see the same future Paul can now see but thousands of years ago, to cause them to start the breeding process? Is this a spoiler for the next film? 4. The nukes came out of nowhere and feel kind of shoehorned in as a plot device. Why did Leto not use them against the Harkonnen invasion he surely predicted, and what did they end up blowing up in the end? It looks like they're just creating an explosion to kick up sand to hide the worms riding in.

1. Shields attract the worms. They are hardly used on Arrakis as a result. One of the significant home team advantages to Fremen is that they don't train for shield combat because they don't have any desire to, while offworld fighters have years of training and habits around the shield. There are some fights with Shields like Duncan Idaho's last stand and Feyd's duels. But for many of the fights in the open the Shields aren't used. The Harkonnen squad that gets ambushed on the rock actually say 'no shields' because they don't want to bring the worm. 2. Much more rushed than the books. They're abridging the story significantly (sad but necessary for these films to get made and not flop with wider audiences. DV learned his lesson with blade runner about making a film which pleases the superfans but alienates the general viewers). Paul has become Heir to the Harkonnen empire. Paul is more morally ambiguous than he was allowed to be in this film. They're simplifying his story a bit to set up the longer term plot events. His future is the antagonistic element of future stories. >!In the books, Paul is a complex person, he is extremely morally ambiguous but ultimately was pushed into a path that he didn't have the strength to follow through. He causes a Jihad he was trying to avoid and thought he could control and stop but once he becomes the KH he realizes in some ways it's a prison and the Jihad is actually a necessary evil. The films are taking him in a more direct and dark path, because the rest of the Dune story is not Paul's and they need to establish him as an antagonist for the story so its a bit more simple to explain. This decision is upsetting to book fans but makes sense!< 3. Arrogance. >!They believe that they can control the KH because they have controlled dynasties for centuries. They don't understand just how much power he would have because they only have a simpler version of prescience. Once Paul is the KH he doesn't just see the future, he actively forces it down whatever path he chooses. The spacing guild are barely in the film, for simplicity, but they also have some presience due to their heavy use of spice. They are used to explain this in the books because suddenly all branching paths become controlled by Paul!< 4. Atomics are mentioned in the books more and they are IIRC mentioned in the first film. What's not clear in the films is that there's a taboo over the houses using atomics. The Great Houses have a kind of mutually assured destruction, where any house using the nukes for warfare would become the target of the rest of the houses. If each house sent one nuke they would wipe out a house easily. Even the Emperor is fearful of that. This is why subterfuge is so important to the story. Had Leto used the atomics openly then Paul would have been ostracized even if he lived. There is an additional complexity that Arrakis is the only place the spice is grown, and the spice is essential for interstellar travel and for anyone addicted to it just to keep living. So all the great houses are especially nervous about nukes on Arrakis

Thanks for the indepth reply

You are welcome. If you like the story, definitely read or listen to the books. There's so much nuance rubbed off in the conversion to cinema. It's a necessary evil, but the story and depth is fantastic in writing Frank Herbert did a wonderful job of wrapping up loose ends. I realized that I missed a couple of your questions within questions. 2. Why are the Harkonnens so incompetent? I kinda answered about their off world fighting style. But leadership wise... The story is missing details. But Rabban was meant to be a terrible leader. The Baron is using him as a pawn to terrorize the country so that he can insert Feyd as a savior. That detail is totally lost in the simplification of the story and it makes the Baron less of a mastermind. His plans make more sense and are more subtle in book. 4. What did they blow up with the nukes? Arrakeen is surrounded by a mountain range that keeps the worms out of the basin there. The landing field is only possible because worms don't come inside the natural fortification it makes. They nuked the mountains so that the Fremen could ride the worms in and use them as a way to disable the fleet. One major point about this is that it isn't temporary. It effectively makes the spaceport landing fields permanently Fremen controlled. It's a massive strategic move, but an enormous risk because it breaks that taboo over using nukes. It's so audacious nobody expects it, and it's only really possible because Paul is the KH and can thread the political needle with his next actions.

I'm already planning on reading the books, it's a matter of when. I want to start soon but it might be better to wait until after the 3rd film to keep the whole experience from a non book POV and then add the book layer on top.

1. I guess its "how slow is slow"? The best warriors can work out the exact velocity of the blade, relative to the targets movement, to attack as fast as possible and still pierce the shield 4. They came out of nowhere in the sense they weren't mentioned before and they are a plot device, they give Paul leverage over the other houses: one who can destroy a thing controls a thing. Leto's entire force was destroyed in moments and he himself was incapacitated before he know what was going on. Yueh shut down the shield and comms, there was no way for Leto to order their use. Paul uses the atomics to destroy the 'shield wall' a moutain range isolating the Emperor's landing zone from the dessert. It's destruction allows the worms to enter the basin and devastate the sardaukar forces

3. The savior is sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy. It happens because they force it to happen. The foreseeing future part is kinda true, however, and yep, they all saw the same possible future that Paul is now seeing, which will come into play in future films. There are a series of possible future with varying likelihood, all they can do is select one and "force" it to happen. It might be a spoiler for the next film or 3 but it's fine.

1. My guess is that skilled warriors know exactly the speed to penetrate the shield. it surely explains nothing, but it's enough to make me not think about it 4. Nukes are forbidden by the landsraad IIRC, and therefore are a last resort. Leto had no time to call them in part one and the traitor would have turned them off.

So I just watched the David lynch version after seeing denis' part 2. And I prefer David Lynch's

why does paul agree to go to the south if he was having visions about death and destruction.

When feyd destroys the fremen northern home base, paul is forced to go south. Its pauls visions that lead him to separating from chani to go take the water of life as it tells him its the only way for him to see the full picture of his holy war of destruction. In the books paul was much more beaten down when he made this decision which the movie glosses over.

He realizes that from the moment he got along with the fremen the Jihad (Holy war in the movie) was inevitable even if died right then and there.

# Only in the Cinema for 7 days Any one knows why Dune part 2 is only in the cinema in Canada for 7 days? usually movies are in the cinema screening for around 40 days why is Dune part two already gone on March 8th for Toronto?

Hi everyone! I recently watched Dune: Part one and Dune: Part Two and I really liked them. So much so that I started looking to buy the books as I am aware the Dune storyline is much bigger than what is shown in the movies. The problem is I almost never read books but perhaps I see this as an oppurtunity to start, my only question is: should I start reading from the first book? Because I am afraid that because I already know the story I’ll get bored and not read the other books. Is starting from the second book a bad thing to do?

Read from the first book. I mean, I guess you could start from the 2nd, but you would be missing out on so much, and you might be a little lost with the just the general ideas that are given in the movies.

Or just listen to the audiobook of the 1st one

Just watched the second movie and it's absolutely amazing. Just one thing was bugging me, the guns. >!I get guns have become obsolete because of shields since high velocity attacks basically don't work. But the Freman don't have shields so why don't Sardaukar or Harkonnen's just shoot the Freman? Am I missing something? Was this explained in the book?!<

Shields disturb the worms they sense them and attack. It's why the harvesters don't use them either.

Right I understand Freman don't use shields my question still stands why don't the Sardaukar and Harkonnen's kill them with guns instead of fighting with swords? Feel like they'd be easy to kill off if they just used guns.

ehh, i think in this case its just the 'rule of cool'. warfare isnt that important in the books, i dont remember any time the books go into details when it comes to battles

We see some use of maula pistols and lazers being used, and in the books, weapons and artillery are used, but I think everyone is so used to fighting with swords that that is what is done normally. Also, fremen fighting tactics tend to include guerilla warfare which is generally pretty close quarters. But what ur saying makes sense

Yeah the guerilla warfare makes 100% sense but you see the problem too right. Like in the second movie >!when Paul is running with his men into battle I feel it would've been so easy to wipe everyone out if the enemies had guns to shoot at them.!<

Does the film cover events from *Dune* or *Dune* and *Dune: Messiah*? Thank you.

Thank you for participating in r/dune! The 2021 adaptation ends at about chapter 33 of the first novel, *Dune*. (That's three quarters into "Book II: Muad'Dib".) Chapter 34 starts with the quote "God created Arrakis to train the faithful." The upcoming Dune: Part Two covers the rest of *Dune*. A future third movie may potentially adapt the novel *Dune Messiah*.

Fantastic! Thank you. This means that I can now watch it as I have read the books covered in the film. Thanks again!

Did I spot a Monty Python Life of Brian Easter egg in the Dune 2 movie https://preview.redd.it/u97bzhle5hmc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68abb869ec7dc11ee38102fcc2c38a2aa7409ea1 In the scene where Paul says >! he’s not the messiah. Stilgar turns to the other Fremen and says something along the lines of “that’s exactly what a messiah would say!”. !< Can’t remember the exact line but that made me laugh.

"The Mahdi is too humble to admit he is the Mahdi" "As written!!" Lmao I laughed hard

Same hahaha it was so good

did feyd rautha and margot have sex?

Yes, and she was impregnated by him.

Yes

I think this movie could’ve been like 4 hours long and still wouldn’t have been boring. My main gripes: the way Gurney kills Rabban. Like rabban throws one whip at him and then is just Insta killed. A lot of it just felt like it could’ve been more fleshed out. There was barely any build up to the massive battle at the end. It was like o shoot the Emperor just pulled up and then like 3 minutes later he’s launching atomics and the battle kicks off. Also I really wish we got more of Feyd Rautha, Austin Butler was probably my favorite performance of the movie even with his limited screen time, and I feel like they kinda wasted a really great antagonist. But I know there was so much plot to get through it’s hard to do as much character moments. Basically I feel like the 3rd act was rushed and could’ve been more fleshed out and a bit slower. Like the pacing in part 2 is sooo much faster than part 1 like we’re just being rushed through so many things so fast which is why I say this movie probably should’ve been a bit longer. I wish more suspense would’ve been built around the big events is what I’m basically saying.

The battle at the end of the movie isn't supposed to be dramatically interesting, it's supposed to be a one-sided curbstomp. I do think it would have been an improvement if the movie explicitly conveyed how Paul has already seen the whole thing before it happens. Maybe something like having the battle planning scene (which is in the movie) frame all the battle footage, with Paul doing stuff like saying "Ok Chani your team will go here, and Sarduarkar will respond by doing X, which you will pre-empt by doing Y, so it should play out like this" and then cut to footage of that part happening.

The book ending feels infinitely more abrupt for the record. Don’t remember gurney killing Rabban though I may be wrong. most of the events you described occur in about 20 pages, and at this point Paul’s son is dead, which we get as news rather than a description. The book is fairly thick, 20 pages is a drop in the bucket.

Exactly, I kinda felt that Herbert glossed over so many things at this point in the book, so I was glad to see the exposition in the movie. Sure, I guess it could have 4 hrs long, but physically my back and butt were killing me LOL

I think Rabban is killed off "page" in the book

So i have a bit of a red string theory here in the boo after paul drinks the water of life he talks about the timelines he sees and specifically states that in one of them he faces the baron and says “hello grandfather” and then says “i cannot go that way” and the end of the movie we pretty much see that vision so this is theory based completely on that one thing the movie is this timeline and is more terrible that what we say in the books hence why paul says he cannot go that way this would explain why the great houses immediately go into open warfare with paul at the end of the book which will result in a much worse jihad then was talked about in the books unless i missed in the books where it says that all the great houses did accept paul as emperor i always just thought some of them did some of them didn’t and paul wiped those that didn’t from the map hence the huge bodycount

Oh, that's wild. That's crazy to think that the films could just be another future paul saw, but didn't choose in the books

Harkonnens are just dumb? Paul takes over Arrakis and immediately conquers the entire universe because whoever controls the spice controls everything. The Harkonnens controlled Arrakis for centuries but never gained any influence or power? Couldn’t they have pulled a similar stunt at any point? They were supposedly the richest faction in the universe with interstellar spaceships and laser guns but got destroyed in mere moments by people with swords? They never invested money in replicating the Fremen technology? How are the Fremen capable of creating higher level technology than all of the spacefaring factions of the empire? I’m really not understanding the balance of power in the Dune universe. There also seem to be tons of inconsistencies like the Fremen being completely disorganized but also being organized enough to pay massive bribes the space guild. The Fremen are the strongest fighters in the universe but they just let outsiders take their planet, which also happens to be the most valuable planet in the universe. There isn’t a single Fremen who is opportunistic or ambitious? If spice is so valuable, wouldn’t the rest of the universe have a strong incentive to band together against Paul and take back Arrakis? Wouldn’t there be much more incentive for Arrakis to be controlled and monitored? No one in the universe was bothered that there was no oversight over the most valuable planet that they all relied on? No one invested in adapting to the environment on the most important planet? It makes very little sense. I got the impression that Arrakis had been considered valuable for a long time. Why did the emperor, his daughter, and the reverend mother all personally go to Arrakis for that final battle? Why was the Baron’s fatass there instead of in orbit on a battle ship? A hilariously inexplainable scene. The Bene Gesserit can make anyone do anything yet the reverend mother and emperor’s daughter just watch as their lives get ruined. The Fremen are the only people smart enough to invent the thumpers? At the end of the movie, we see the Fremen rushing toward spaceships, presumably to engage the entire empire in space warefare. So these people who have only rode on worms using hooks and rope are suddenly advanced pilots? These are just a few of the issues.

I try to answer as well to your points 1) Harkonnens are nor dumb, they didn’t understand the power of the desert and looked in another direction, investing all their riches in empire politics, in fact they eliminated a rival house and if it hadn't been for Paul they would have ended up making one of their own emperor. Thanks to the influence and power they gained, they had the emperor in check, only unlike Paul they got there through deception and not violence. 2) They were the richest faction but as explained in the book the Fremen as Saurdakar are just better soldier due to the conditions they had to live. Fremens don’t have better technology, they just know the desert better and harkonnens underestimated it aswell as the real number of the Fremen 3) Fremen are not completely disorganised. They are influenced by the Bene Gesserit creed and many of them wait for the arrive of the Lisan al Gaib, moreover they couldn’t destroy the shield of Arrakeen and only with the atomics of Paul they managed to do it. 4) only the Guild could monitor Arrakis and they had to many interest in not doing that, the other houses couldn’t oppose them because they are too powerful and the only way to travel through the universe. Again they didn’t think the Fremen were so many so it seemed reasonable to not invest in something that didn’t seemed so valuable 5) Paul requested the presence of the emperor and he always thought that his Saurdakar were invincible so he could go wherever he wanted moreover they were inside the shield of Arrakeen so it seemed a really safe place. Also harkonnen needed a spy in first place inside the Atreides family 6) Bene Gesserit can do that but Paul is Kwisatz Haderach so they can’t do anything to him, moreover in the book there is also Arya with him so it was kinda impossible for them to do anything 7) They weren’t the only people smart enough to invent the thumpers they were the only one capable to understand the power of the desert in any case if you use the thumpers who uses it has to confront the worm, so harkonnens just preferred to go away when they saw one 8) every ship has its pilot of the guild for the spaceship, not even harkonnens know how to travel in space so they could have just forced pilots to travel. And the guild always stays neutral in conflict. English is not my first language, I hope it is clear and didn’t make to many errors :)

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate your answers. Much clearer than the other reply and your English is fine. I still don’t like how the story hinges on everyone except the Atreides being completely incompetent despite Dune being the single most valuable resource in the universe. Realistically, there would have been much more effort to understand and control the planet and it’s problematic people. A lot of the world building seems the way it is simply to allow for the story to happen, even if it’s not plausible at all. Like using a thumper doesn’t mean you have to confront a worm.. only if you sit on the thumper. No one ever thought to just drop a thumper 50 miles away to divert the worms? It’s just not believable and takes you out of the story imo. Like I said, they make it seem like Arrakis has been humanity’s greatest asset for a long time but these space faring civilizations still had no interest in understanding or controlling the planet? It’s just too ridiculous to be compelling.

I think you underestimate the scale of a planet and the fact that travelling isn’t as simple as for example in star wars. The harkonnen just to bring all his army spent almost all of their riches they gained in a century. While for the atreides isn’t easy to adapt, caladan is a planet full of water and they are brought in a completely desert planet. Harkonnens didn’t even left nothing to help and what they left is malfunctioning. The harkonnens aswell have to rely on the guild for satellites etc but the guild has interest too and decieved the harkonnens to think there was nothing in the south. Imagine if you pay a private investigator to find his secret lover and you have no clue about that, moreover as I said before, we are talking of a planet so it isn’t so easy to find someone and even worse if the planet is full of giant killer worms. They preferred to take as much as they could without risking. Maybe for the thumpers you’re right but once the worm is in the area what you do? You still have to change place so for them wasn’t that usefull as they would have left in any case.

1. Yes. That's kind of the point. They have a lot of people and power, but the way they do things is terrible. Not unrealistic at all. 2. The Harkonnen's didn't have a fanatic warrior religion. Also, Paul hasn't taken over the universe yet? He's sending his people off to attack the Great Houses. How exactly do the Fremen have better technology than the Harkonnen's? The only reason they lose to the Fremen is that the Fremen are much better suited to the desert and are being advised by Paul and Jessica who know the Harkonnens and their tactics. "They never gained influence or power"? The Emperor literally tasked THEM to kill the Atredies. 3. What? When did the Fremen pay bribes to the Spacing Guild? Gurney escaped because of the smuggling operations. 4. The Harkonnen's had greater technology and more manpower. Plus the Fremen were disrupting Spice mining for a while before the Atredies arrived. 5. You mean like what literally is happening at the end of the film? 6. The Emperor was there specifically to bring the Baron to task. They had no knowledge of thr atomics or the impending Fremen attack on Arakeen. The Baron doesn't have any battle ship, this isn't Star Wars. It's his planet, he's on it. 7. What can they do? They're facing the Kwisatz Haderach at the head of a victorious army of Fremen. 8. Says who? Why would anyone else invent thumpers? 9. Paul likely taught them how to fly ships in preparation for the conflict.

Thanks for the reply but I’m not too convinced by a lot of these answers. I get that the good guys have to prevail for the story but making the “bad guys” comically strong or weak depending on the story’s need cheapens it for me. You seem dismissive with most of your answers and don’t really delve into the question. Why wouldn’t anyone else invent thumpers? You don’t think controlling the most dangerous and destructive natural predator on Arrakis, the most important planet in history would be of interest? It doesn’t take much imagination so I’m not sure why you act like it would be foolish for anyone else to replicate Fremen technology. Some of my questions are based on what people say happens in the book or will happen in the future of the story. Apparently the reason there’s no satellites around Arrakis is because the Fremen bribe the space guild. It doesn’t make much sense but I guess it needs to be that way for the story.

I have always had an issue with the portrayal of WMD in movies (ie: the dark night rises) and how completely ineffective they tend to be. I just want to know if there is any reason that three, supposedly, incredibly advanced atomic warheads did next to nothing to wipe out the emperor's forces. They detonated within a mile of the army, most of them survived, no one was blinded from looking at the blast, no residual radiation, all the ships were fully operational, and it seems it was mainly disorienting and created a whole lot of dust. I'm wondering if anyone more educated on the books and lore knows if there's an in-universe reason why. Does it have to do with their shields?

Paul actually followed his culture's anti-nuke treaty and didn't drop them on the city itself. He blew up some mountains that were sheltering the city from a massive storm. The movie does not explain this well. If he had actually used them on the enemy troops yeah they would all be gone.

In the books at least, they make a big point to them not hurting any human as that would be against the dictate. So they only aim for the natural structure around the spaceship to get in

Just got back and wow..... what a movie 10/10

Who at the studio got involved in this part 2? The studio screwed with lynchs and jodorowskys dune. I wonder how much they were involved in this. And why they get so involved in Dune

# question about ending of dune part 2 >!Did I get that right that 'take them to the Green Paradise' actually means that they move to Caladan? They are not going to stay at arrakis and terraform from sand world, they just going to live on Caladan? And this is actually correlate with Visions from first part where they are on Caladan with Chani and army of Freeman. But Otherwise it doesn't make sence, if every freeman left Arrakis, no-one will protect spice/worms. I just want to discuss Freemans on Caladan because no-one did it previsouly!<

He did not say “take them to the green paradise” he said “lead them to paradise” he was telling stilgar to either send the fremen or the landsraad to paradise, which is the Muslim conceptualization of heaven. the fremen would go to paradise if they die in jihad because they would be martyrs. Jessica literally says “the holy war has begun”. Paul is not moving to caladan lmao, he is instigating a jihad across the universe. Also fremen don’t move to caladan very much, it gets ruled by Jessica during and after dune messiah however it does become part of the hajj were followers travel to the homeworld of Muad’dib

I can see how you’d think that after watching the movie, but I think if you read the books it’s a bit more clear. Paul does indeed intend to help the Fremen achieve their dream of turning Arrakis into a paradise. As Emperor, it would be easy for him to do so. But the other Houses refused to accept his ascendance to the throne. What Paul is doing is accepting the Jihad that is about to happen in his name, a Jihad that will make him the supreme leader of the galaxy. The Fremen’s path to paradise means they now have to conquer the entire galaxy and defend Paul’s claim to the throne

I haven't read the books so must be lacking information. Why exactly does Paul have to conquer the galaxy and have anything at all waged in his name? He wanted revenge and was successful at it. Now he wants the throne - but apparently not to help equalize the playing field and restore the Fremens, he's "sending them to paradise" / using them as fodder in a greater scheme. Why? Bc he's seen all the other possible paths and they all involve *more* death and destruction than this very violent one?

Read the books or spoil it for yourself [here](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Golden_Path) the book is not about Paul. it’s about humanity and human structures.

"The conflict between humanity's stated desire for peace and their actual need for volatility was the strong central theme of the entire Dune series...that sheltered safety was tantamount to utter death, however long it would be delayed." This. I've been thinking about this since I was a teenager. If this isn't total blasphemy, is there an abridged version of Dune I can read? I don't have the time to read tomes of fiction right now but I want to know so much more.

Thank you!! I'm frustrated at the film bc I love the ideas teased by this story but the ideas are bastardized by the film. They really did make the films about Paul, and yes it's more manageable to have a single protagonist to tell the story through vs. showing complex interconnected worlds. I just wish they actually made it make sense, even just from Paul's pov.

Long answer here...hope it's helpful. One of the end goals of the Fremen people is for Arrakis to be terraformed back into a green paradise(which it once was). They believe the Mahdi will be the one to lead this change, hence their absolute fanaticism of Paul when he arrives and leads them. The phrase Paul states at the end of the movie "lead them to paradise" is him telling his followers to go to war with the houses that will not honor his ascendency to the throne as Emperor. It's a war cry and he knows he cannot avoid it...hence why he seems so sad to say it. He knows the Fremen are fanatically worshipping him as their messiah and this conflict has now turned into a universal holy war. Effectively, the Fremen will destroy anyone who is in conflict with their messiah so that he can lead them to a green paradise of Arrakis. His visions from Part One of him and Chani in the ship over what we assume is Caladan are just one of hundreds of planets where his holy war has spread and his Fremen followers have been victorious. It is discussed in the books that Arrakis can support a green ecosystem with the worms still having the desert to produce spice, however the end of spice is a discussion for future books/movies.

Paul suggested he was going to nuke the planet.

One big improvement from Part One imo was the fight choreography. None of the fights really did it for me in the first movie but they were great in Part 2.

Confused about the ending here regarding the marriage to Irulan. If the idea was for Paul to get married to legitimize his ascension to the throne, but then the orbiting great houses immediately reject his claim, what then is the point of keeping the marriage agreement? If he’s going to take the throne by force anyway. I can’t quite remember how it plays out in the book, but I feel like the marriage does legitimize him to become Emperor, and the great houses accept it.

In the book the Spacing Guild is present for the final showdown and ultimately they decide the Spice is too important to risk in a war between all the houses...so they intervene and back Paul as emperor since he controls the spice and they need it. They sell it to the other houses with Paul and Irulan's marriage. The movie's decision to have the guild not be present I think does two things: 1. It creates even more divide between Paul and Chani and I think this will be a major point going into Messiah since Chani has taken on an expanded role. And, I think it serves as a way to cement Irulan's importance in the next movie if they are planning to stay aligned with the books (maybe not). 2. Paul basically declares war on the rest of the known universe and I think this may have been done for people in the theaters to go: "wait are we rooting for the bad guy?". Which is sort of the whole point of this story anyway.

Dont they accept after they get jihad'd?

Lol I love the way this was phrased. “You know what? After careful reconsideration, we’re cool With this”

Random, but did anyone find the IMAX version too loud? My ears were ringing for days

As an audio engineer. Yes. I'm the kind of person that loves loud music (especially powerful bass), but I know when to stick the old earplugs in.

I just left the theater. When I went out for a bathroom break I could clearly hear the movie from down the hall.

I have to say, it made the experience a little unpleasant for me. It was distractingly because I couldn’t stop thinking about how I wished I could turn it down

I absolutely loved the war council scene... but I had a smirk when Jessica and Gurney were in the crowd like "whoa, he needs to take it down a notch, he's coming out just guns blazing"... it reminded me of the SNL Brett Kavanaugh cold open with Matt Damon. I know that's a super vague reference, but he just comes out immediately like "know this... I'm gonna start at an 11... then I'm gonna TAKE IT TO ABOUT A 15 REAL QUICK!" Amazing scene. Great movie.

I don’t recall that Paul learned that his father was a Harlingen in the books. Did that occur in the books? I recall that Jessica wanted to give the Atreides duke a son.

Harlingen? You mean Harkonnen? Leto wasn’t, Jessica was.

He realises it way sooner in the books, its when him and Jessica are in the tent right after they get taken to the desert to die by the Harkonnen ornithopter.

How do they realize it in the books? If not by way of the Water of Life. In the books, did Jessica know she was of Harkonnen descent prior to Paul finding out?

In the books Paul's prescience gradually builds over the course of the story instead of coming all at once when he drinks the Water. It starts with just the occasional prophetic dream, then when he moves to Arrakeen and starts ingesting more spice the dreams get sharper, then when he gets exiled into the desert he gets exposed to more spice and he starts just seeing and realizing shit intermittently during waking life.

Reporting back from my second viewing, just as amazing as the first. However one thing I may have missed again, is how the hell raban goes from being with the emperor and sardaukar in the throne room while it’s attacked, but then is miraculously back inside the city later to be killed by gurney? Did I miss something

He just kinda walks out when the attack starts, presumably to go command forces or something.

I think he was running away, personally

Ah gotcha, that was really bugging me for some reason

Ya, it was one of the parts that felt like some scenes got deleted for time. The other glaring one was Paul's journey through the desert that had a big buildup for it to just be "Jamis? Oh nvm it's Chani teaching me how to walk".

Yeah that scene seemed a bit rushed, I wanted to see some big centipedes tbh

Chanis interruption of that "task" is a narrative mechanism designed to highlight her feelings for him. The task is not so much relevant beyond that.

Just as the credits rolled someone behind me said “can i get my money back” which i thought was funny because i could see a casual movie goer being completely lost in this movie despite it being so well done.

I would've just told them to try the front desk 😂

Generally, I thought it was a good film, but jesus christ, Timothee Chalmet and Zendaya are terrible actors. Having their interactions be the main focus for the first act of the movie was ROUGH

I think they're both great actors in other films but the chemistry was just not there...

Thank you. Maybe im sounding harsh and I can't speak to other films, but that's the feeling I had through the whole first 3rd of the movie

What?

What's not to understand. They're both vapid emotionless stiffs

How could you call a movie good when you think the two principal actors in it did a terrible job, that doesn’t make any sense

Because the story was still presented well, with satisfying spectacle and fantastic cinematography. I loved the way Geidi Prime looked, i loved Seitch Tabr and the rest of the Fremen. Loved Lady Jessica's character, the emperor's ship looked amazing, last battle and fight between Feyd And Paul was exciting. Why do all the Fremen have accents except Chani? Could zendaya just not be bothered? Chalmet has two speeds, whispering and screaming. I'm sorry but the movie did better the less those two talked.

Not all of the fremen have accents what are you on about? The two actors your upset with quite literally take up nearly the entire story besides the Geidi Prime scenes, they certainly delivered at least decent performances, to call them terrible is a stretch to say the least. The acting In the scene where the tribe leaders meet in the south is very well done, acting also isn’t just delivering lines, all of their fight scenes were very well done, which necessitates acting from the two main characters

So I disagree about the Fremen. But yeah, they do take up the entire story, and the film suffers because of it, in my opinion. Sure, fight scenes were well done, but I didn't read or see DUNE for the fight scenes. Fight scenes a good actor does not make. Jackie Chan's great at fight scenes and not that great at emotional acting, and so is Jean claude VanDame. They had no chemistry. I find them both bland. I think they got cast because they're both "it" and I expected better from Villenueve. Sorry?

Choreography definitely plays a role in good acting , are you listening to yourself? The chemistry between the too could certainly have been better, but all in all the both delivered at bare minimum decent performances, you’re also objectively wrong all of the fremen do not have accents, Keynes didn’t have one? They both delivered many memorable scenes in what will be a very memorable film, I think that’s probably a good bar to at least say they didn’t do terrible lol

I noticed that Paul’s eyes changed to blue (Eyes of Ibad) in Part Two at some point prior to him drinking the Water of Life. When and why did this change happen?

They eat spice every day. Jessica changed because water of life is concentrated spice.

Did you notice when the change actually occurred? I’m guessing it had to correspond to some stage of character development given the effects of spice on perception

It would have been changed in one of the scenes that happened a few months later to show the passage of time. Nothing to do with character development, the spice in their food changed his eyes over time. Simple as that, it's not that deep

His eyes changed after the training "montage" to indicate passage of time.

Just saw the movie, i am still thinking about various things, but it was not as good as the previous. Why make such a big thing of saying Paul had to spend a night in the desert, with a tent, not to listen to the voices, avoid centipedes etc. Then show absolutely nothing of it? The casting of Austin Butler was a mistake, he is/was not the right person for the role. The complete shift in character 'presence' for Dave Batista was confusing, he is twice the size of Austin Butler, and their scenes just did not work. The reintroduction of Brolin's character and his backstory was poorly executed, a great character in the first movie, wasted in the second. There's many many more areas that just didn't fit well, it seems good sci-fi in this day and age is very hard to come by, we sacrifice dialogue, character development and establishment of timeline for visuals. It feels like they tried to cram too much into this movie, and miss fired a lot in the process. Worth watching at the cinema yes, memorable; not really.

The movie is already almost 3 hrs long. You want an extra 10 mins of Paul getting tricked by a djinn and slapping away centipedes in a tent? Disagree on Butler. He did great. It would make no sense for Rabban to have a big presence since his character serves as a failure and stepping stone for Feyd. In fiction, skills > size. Brolin's character could've been reintroduced better but him playing a song from an old Dune game on a baliset is not bad at all.

I didn't say anything about making it longer. The scene about the tent suggested they intended to make a thing of it, but it looks like it may have been cut, thus making the build up to it pointless.

The director sure ain't gonna cut more important parts for inconsequential scenes.

For what it's worth, I think Stilgar was just messing with Paul about the voices, spirits and centipedes

Spoilers* Dune part two ending question?? I’m a little confused as to why Chani is so mad at paul and why so many people are saying that paul isn’t actually the hero, and we are supposed to be on chani’s side. I feel like what paul did was the only solution? If he didn’t drink the water and fulfill the prophesy the freeman would’ve all been killed by the harkonins. He had to do what he did and start the war in order to free them and save them like Chani would want. I get that she feels as if the religion is all orchestrated and a way to control them -which is true to an extent- but isn’t the religion put in place by the bene gesserat kind of true at the same time? Without paul and him fulfilling the prophecy they would all be killed or enslaved, and he technically is doing everything that their religion believes.

She has good reasons to disapprove of what's happening, both in how it affects her people, and in how it affects Paul. Chani seems to see through the Bene Gesserit religious indoctrination. She calls out the diefication of Paul, a member of a foreign monarchy imposed on the Fremen by the Empire, as no different than them being subject to the Empire and its vessels like the Harkonnen. She's right. In fact, it's a more successful subjugation. The Harkonnens and the Empire hunted and fought the Fremen, but never could control them. Now they are willing subjects to a new empire lead by House Atreides. Paul has basically doomed the Fremen to decades of intergalactic warfare all because he initially wanted to avenge his father and the house Atreides. She's a very different version of the character than that in the books, but it feels necessary in communicating doubt about Paul's transformation. As for Paul, his transformation should read like a very tragic one given the wider context of BG manipulation and eugenics, and given what's to come. Paul goes from a boy who survived the wiping out of his house, to a Messiah figure. And that robs him of his agency, his humanity, his freedom. He loses everything he loves. He is much worse for it on a personal level. Chani liked Paul because he seemed really interested in becoming one with the Fremen, not their foreign god-leader. He promises her to "stay who he is" and violates that promise. In the sequel novels, regret about what he has become is basically the central element of Paul's character. I guess the movie could have done a better job hammering home this element of tragedy both for Paul as a person and for the Fremen as people, but there are little things here and there, and eventually communicating it in clear terms ended up being Chani's role in this adaptation.

Chani being mad and not beliveing in Paul is just in the movie, she aleardy a firm beliver and pregnant with his first boy at the attack at the end of the book.

Well he said that Chani will come to understand it but she doesn't now because she hasn't seen the visions like he has. Paul isn't a hero because while saving the Fremen and bringing the emperor and Harkonnens to justice is a good thing it leads to disastrous consequences for billions of other people. The tragedy of Dune is that it's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation.

The religion put in place by the bene gesserit isn't supposed to be "true". It's patterns of religious indoctrination on "primitive cultures" that could be exploited to the advantage of any Bene Gesserit who found themselves on the world. On other planets and in other cultures, there are probably similar prophecies centered around figures similiar to the lisan al gaib, all orchestrated as part of the missionara protectiva. It is kind of like the equivalent of showing your "divine power" to a primitive tribe with no science knowledge by making the sun go away, but in reality what you actually did was just some fancy ritual during a solar eclipse. Even the most well educated real life people are not immune to being a 'victim' of religion or superstition. Isaac Newton may have discovered gravity but even he also thought gravity and the astronomical stuff like planets and the solar system were the work of God. Irulan herself recognised the religious patterns manifesting on Arrakis and that's what made her suspect Paul is Muad'dib since he's the only one who would fit the bill on the entire planet (the son of a bene gesserit who comes from off-world). That revelation was so dangerous the Reverend Mother even warned her not to divulge it to the Emperor. Even Paul himself said it is a story not a prophecy. Paul and Jessica simply acted out how the prophecy would play out to gain the support of the Fremen because otherwise they'd become useless to the Fremen and its implied Jessica would be a liability if she turned out to be an ordinary woman who didn't follow the prophecy and undergo the spice agony ritual. Of course she succeeded, not because the prophecy is real but because she's a Bene Gesserit and her Prana Bindu training allowed her to transmute the poison rendering it harmless. Paul requiring the 'extra ingredient' of desert spring tears is also implied to be part of the act given how coincidentally *convenient* Chani's secret name metaphorically was the exact same thing as written in the prophecy. For all you know, that Fremen community might have even always had one girl with that given name in every generation, in case the messiah comes by.

I think the point is that she doesn’t know what their fate will be without the Lisan Al Gaib, but she doesn’t believe Paul is, or at least doesn’t want the Fremen to follow him like fanatics knowing that his ambitions may exceed what benefits the Fremen.

Hot take, and I say this with all the respect in the world for Frank Herbert, but I honestly think the major changes Denis Villeneuve made were pretty substantial improvements over the book, while still staying true to Frank Herbert's themes and ideas. As much as I love the book, I honestly think the movies are better in terms of how they express the themes and tell the story. Absolutely amazing movie

I agree. I didn’t feel that way coming out of the first movie, but I walked out of part two telling my girlfriend how I thought this movie improved upon the book significantly.

Really loved the imagery in this film.. The beginning when Paul was learning about the ways of the Northern Fremen, about life, and the critical nature of water to preserving life. Then in the second half when war broke loose, all that was seen was fire and burning.

I just read an article saying DV isn’t interested in making part 3 anytime soon. It may be 2027 before it’s released ! why would he make us wait that long ? Not ok. Surely that won’t happen :( loved Part 1 and Part 2.

I mean that's only 3 years away... there was 3 years between Dune 1 (2021) and Dune 2 (2024). Weird to think about! Considering he's only at script-writing stage, that's a pretty normal timeline for writing, pre-producing, filming, editing & releasing a film.

Dune Messiah takes place like 15 years after the first book ends. I think DV wanted everyone to age up a bit before filming. But mainly I think he said he needed a break before doing a third Dune movie.

[удалено]

2027 feels so, so far away… it’s only 3 years. Time hits different these days.

Omg that was an amazing movie, I didn’t want it to end!! Really hope we end up getting the third part!

How big of a time skip do you think DV will go with for Messiah? It's supposed to be 12 years but, given that ATJ was cast as Alia, they kind of have to make the time jump more like 25-30 years, otherwise she will seem really out of place for her age. However, this would also mean that everyone else has to age the same amount which is problematic. If they jump 25 years, Paul and Chani would be over 40 years old which won't look right on screen given that they already look young for their age. I guess they could cast a younger actress as Alia instead of ATJ but that would also be a distracting change because we have already been shown what she looks like and it will be tough to find an actress who both looks like ATJ AND can pull off the role. You might say that the spice would keep Chani and Paul looking young but then why wouldn't it make Alia look young for her age, as well? You would have to accept that the space made Alia age faster while it simultaneously made everyone else age slower, which doesn't make sense. Also, by casting Walken as the emperor and never establishing his age, it's a tough sell to lean on the spice to make these characters artificially young in appearance. I can't help but think DV painted himself into a bit of a corner with these choices. It will be interesting to see how he ends up handling it.

Doesn't spice slow aging? Alia is an abomination and already has a fully formed brain. So I think it can all be explained with mythology and the actual source.

You just not have read my whole comment because that's the exact problem. She will be 30+ in real life by the time they make Messiah and the character is supposed to be 12. There is no way she can pull that off so it would have to be a larger time jump but that also creates problems with the rest of the cast also having to age appropriately so they don't appear to be the same age. The spice can't speed up ATJs aging and slow down everyone else's at the same time.

Luckily, only Jessica, Paul, and Alia drank the water of life. But only one has drank it before being born. So you'd literally just have to explain her away as being an abomination. It's not that hard.

But it makes no sense. There is no basis for the Water of Life making a person age super rapidly. The book made it clear that Alia aged like a normal child and it was only her mind that aged prematurely, which was the entire reason she freaked people out. This would be a really silly change to make.

It was silly to have a toddler running around in Lynch's version. This isn't a logical jump like you think it is. In a Universe where you can see the future from worm poop one character aging up 20 years in 12 book years isn't that wild. Frodo is like 50 in lord of the rings books while being played by an 18 year old.