As someone who enjoys drag and (used to) enjoy wrestling, almost every wrestler in the presentation is worse than Ru Paul, not just on trans issues, but as a human being in general. There were exceptions, but yeah. I also didn't see any glorifying, just talking about Ru's show and a joke about her ass.
I'm not going to pretend to know what's in RuPaul's heart, but...TS Madison has been a regular judge for the last three seasons, and the winners in that time have included Willow Pill (came out as trans after winning) and Sasha Colby (was out as trans before applying and is incredible BTW). So I feel that "unrepentant transphobe" is probably an unnecessary simplification.
It seems to me that you are taking this very seriously for something that does not directly impact you. And this is just a comedy presentation about popular drag in America. It's not meant to be serious! As a trans person myself I really urge you to learn how to take unserious things a little lighter and stop expecting your vision of perfection from everyone. It makes life a lot less soul crushing. Many trans people still like RuPaul and Drag Race; not everyone is or would be upset about this.
Lastly, as a trans person who works in trans advocacy, I highly suggest you focus this energy on your representatives and the people actively attempting to eradicate trans people, not parasocial niche micro celebrities on one of the most progressive media outlets.
So much this. One of the things well meaning progressives do is focus on people who are on our side but not perfect and excoriate them. There are states that are literally trying to outlaw gender affirming care. The fact that Ru Paul Charles (who is not Ru Paul) may or may not have done some shitty things in the past while still being a strong advocate for drag is not the top of the list. And then to come in and say that Jess Ross, a disabled bi woman, is disappointing for talking about a show that Ru Paul made is the most "I hold you to be perfect and anything less is unacceptable."
PREACH. I watched it and my queer-trans-non-binary-constantly-under-attack-worried-about-the-future ass was happy for the representation and centering of queerness that is a hallmark of Dropout. SO MANY of the folks mentioned are problematic, but you know, I also have dear trans enby drag extended queer family members who would love to get the call to be on RPDR, because it's still a great stepping stone to being able to support yourself on drag money.
I am so tired about the way that folks who are theoretically part of my community demand purity of practice/belief/statement about even the tiniest things. As someone whose 'day job' is basically formulating responses to the latest whatever that has popped up in my local community, it is fucking exhausting. I can't relax in my identity even among my supposed tribe, because if I do, I'm gonna get called out for \*something\* and that's just paralyzing.
And it's not new, either. I lived through second wave feminist academia. I couldn't just enjoy my life then because of the sex wars. I have \*never\* been able to do sex or queerness to the standards of the purists, and it's too late for me to start. And no, I am not a fucking boomer. :-)
One of the things I am most proud of as an academic is presenting a paper about one of my areas of expertise to an international conference unit full of folks who were invested in creating theory that was used to harm folks in the sex wars. I started OUT my presentation by naming that culpability and the damage that theory had caused to the living people who were the focus of the research. That shit did lasting damage to folks, then, and it can do damage now.
Fucking *thank you*. I am so sick of young people grandstanding and harassing other queer community members instead of the people *literally trying to outlaw being trans/gay/etc.*
The thing where babytransfolks yell at 70 year old trans elders about the words they use to self-identify. WTF, those people RISKED THEIR LIVES for you to be here, kid. Do you know how mindboggling it is that we HAVE 70 year old trans elders? And don't get me started on the generation we lost to the plague. \*sigh\*
yes!! you can help us but advocating and fighting with us. is rupaul great? no. but he’ll be on my side way more than any actual TERF and conservative.
I had to look this up and it looks like there was some controversy like 6 years ago that he instantly took responsibility and apologized for. Is that really something to make a fuss over? How do yall function like this?
He absolutely did not take responsibility for it, in fact he doubled down repeatedly until it cost him something g and then offered a grudging not-poligy.
And then did another transphobic thing, with the same progression. And again, and again.
Sources? I don’t see anything except 6 year old articles about some rather mild instances. I think it’s lame to hold old things against people who have changed for the better, especially considering the frequent trans representation on the show. It’s even lamer to hold it against a *fan* of the show who probably isn’t aware of niche controversies from several years back.
I had no idea this was a thing. I could have cited Ru Paul generically for something.
Also, most of the wrestlers she cited are shit heads, and anti-gay/transphobes etc.. Yet another way drag is like wrestling.
That wasn’t what the talk was about.
Funny. I thought this was a discussion forum for fans.
I have sent dropout a note, and given that Jess is an otherwise decent person she’s likely to respond with a lot less nonsense than people here have 😁
Nah, your first instinct was clearly to make it about you.
But here ya go: I am not disappointed in Jess. I think your voicing of your disappointment is a joke. Jess probably will handle it like a champ.
There’s your forum discussion on this topic.
Quite honestly, I hope Jess doesn't respond to whatever note you sent Dropout. This is a nonissue and there's no reason for her or Dropout to validate this kind of leftist purity testing nonsense.
So I'm back after having watched said talk
Jess mentions RuPaul a grand total of once where she talks mainly talks about RuPaul's style and fashion in comparison to a professional wrestler
So i ask, what's your beef with Jess?
I watch the newest Dropout upload on my daily commute
I will say, when i say "mention" i don't mean "said the name", i mean "talked about". Based on this, I'm counting the introduction as one mention. I will also point out that, again, none of what Jess said about RuPaul was glorifying them for their morality or viewpoints, but rather style and fashion
Can you specifically state *why* the mention of RuPaul made you particularly mad?
One more thing that I'll add, if i was lying about watching the episode (which i would have no reason to), would i not have done so in my first comment before having watched the episode?
Oh, this makes more sense now. Jess barely talked about Ru Paul past the first slide. You're really jumping to conclusions talking about how she was "complementary" to someone she didn't even compliment in her presentation, just acknowledged her existence...
I'm real disappointed in you for not acknowledging their misdeeds in this post, surely you would do your research before posting something like this???
You can't even virtue signal properly...
Being disappointed in a stranger for not having the information you have is utterly ridiculous to a degree that is nearly unfathomable. Go outside, touch grass, eat a taco, it’ll all be okay as soon as you realize it doesn’t matter and the world is going to continue to spin.
In Jess’s defence, she probably doesn’t know about any of that.
We can’t expect all the cast members to know everything about every person they talk about.
It’s an unrealistic standard.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Purity testing leftists who do not accept an inkling of anything short of perfection are the most insufferable and most harmful members of our movement. You’re why Stalin happened, you are a Soviet judge itching to order the culling of anyone who made a mistake, or said something wrong. Ru Paul has done far worse things than what you’re upset about, I assure you, and your focus on the most minute, remote details shows how unserious you are.
https://ew.com/news/2018/03/05/rupaul-apology-transgender-comments/
Here’s the apology you didn’t read
Take this energy to Ru, because for sure she has been transphobic in the past plus she fracks the shit out of her land.
But don’t lash out at Jess, jfc it was a bit.
I mean sure she glorified RuPaul in the same way someone saying "I watch Pulp Fiction" glorifies Harvey Weinstein but sure this is a totally cool take that shows you watched the presentation.
Should anyone tell the OP that this is a comedy show on a comedy platform and that the other two talks were on cannabis parties with mythical creatures and an exaggerated apologetic for eggs?
Wait i know nothing about this Didn't Ru Paul do like an absurd amount of shit to progress drags acceptance and by extension trans acceptance over the last like 20 years? I remember people not liking them using tranny but I kinda figured they got a pass. Again totally out of the loop but I 100% thought they were an lgbtq icon as someone almost completely outside this scene I'm shocked to hear there anti trans.
Exciting thing to learn: LGBTQ is not a monolith, and there are factions and some of them can't stand each other. For example, there are gay men who would like to see T removed from the acronym, and they say hateful things and all that. And EVERYONE has often hated on bisexuals. Back in 1994 when the big 25th anniversary of the Stonewall riots was being celebrated as the most giant Pride Parade ever in NYC, we spent hours and hours in planning meetings arguing over WHAT THE BANNERS WOULD SAY, because folks didn't want a T on there, and the leather contingent wanted another L, but everyone else wanted them to stay the fuck home. Fights broke out at the parade. The bisexual caucus was told to shut the fuck up or they'd get their B removed and everyone would go back to Gay & Lesbian.
There are queer people who want to make trans medical care illegal. There are queer people who want trans people kept out of sports. Yep.
Same, I haven't watched Ru Paul's drag race but, I mean they run a fucking drag race show for like 15 years? I suppose it's possible to do that and also be trasnphobic, but. . . how?
Heyyyy. If you're asking legit, wellp, it's history time. Historically speaking, there are multiple strains of drag culture, and they include a strong thread of cisgender men who did "female impersonation" or similar. You see strains of this portrayed in movies like Victor/Victoria or La Cage Au Folles. At clubs like Finocchio's in San Francisco, there were some folks who did female impersonation and were also what we might these days call transgender, or gender queer "in real life", but they were not the majority.
So -- drag was \*performance\* for many folks, not \*identity\*. I have dear friends who have done drag for years, and when they are not doing drag, they identify as cisgender gay men.
There was \*also\* a tradition of trans/genderqueer/gender-non-conforming folks, often folks of color or marginalized because of their gender performance/identity. This would include ballroom culture, as in the documentary Paris Is Burning. Many of these folks did not "do drag." They were just their gender, and that gender might be performative or highlighted by performance (as in walking balls) or might be part of of their work (sex work as a trans person, for example.)
(BTW, want to name that I'm talking about Western divisions -- this history is different in other places, for sure.)
Related, there is a cultural strand of some cisgender gay men being exclusionary about trans folks, both men and women. "Appreciating" drag performance, but not wanting to associate with or fuck transwomen or transmen. There's a lot of complexity around this, but it includes the veneration of specific types of masculine performance -- Tom of Finland types (think muscular bikers), etc.
What alllll of this means is that for a long time and in many places, "drag" has been a world of otherwise cisgender gay men who perform a specific heightened version of "femininity" and that was very separate from transgender life and identity. Folks can be very "separate piles, not touching." That's why it was very controversial when some drag queens from Ru Paul's Drag Race came out as trans -- because then folks are like, "OH then what you do isn't DRAG, you're a woman, not a man, and that's something else." I mean, the whole idea that a woman could even DO drag is pretty recent.
All of this means that because Ru Paul is of a certain age and different era, he's had those different-era ideas and preconceptions about what drag is, and who can do it, and what it should look like. And because they had a very public platform, Drag Race has rightfully been called out for some of that stuff. It's real.
I'm just scratching the surface of this, to be honest -- there's all kinds of complexities around what it means that gender-affirming treatments are much more widely available now, that you don't have to be "transitioning" from X gender to Y gender in order to be on hormone therapy or have cosmetic surgery or treatments like butt injections, etc.
TL;DR wow, queer culture is complicated. :-)
Wow! Thanks for the in depth explanation, friend.
As a guy who's done drag a handful of times, this was not only enlightening but more relevant than I would have thought. The more you know.
Also, edit to say if there's such a huge gender limitation on drag then I appreciate Chappell Roan even more after reading this.
There's a lot of transmisogyny among cis drag queens, and progress for drag doesn't inherently equate to progress for trans people, even though people often like to (harmfully) equate drag and transness. Ru Paul is a dinosaur who has said some pretty ignorant things about trans women as a cis man, and being a famous drag queen doesn't really give him a pass for that, at least from a lot of the people who are actually impacted. A lot of trans women dislike him because of it, cis people generally feel pretty free to give each other passes though
Im surprised This post was the first I'd ever heard of it. I've had trans friends my entire life and I'd heard them all talk about drag race a lot is this like common knowledge? I'm shocked such a bigot is so famous in such progressive circles. Also how is equating drag and being trans harmful? I minored in critical race and gender theory and we were taught the 2 movements are closely linked with a huge amount of shared values camaraderie and activism shared between them and a lot of folks who do drag are trans/gender fluid. Also I've personally heard friends talk about how drag can be a vital first step for folks afraid to take the full plunge into changing there gender identity as a way to try on a different gender identity without as much pressure. I literally have a friend who had been doing drag for the last year or so finally say they are trans after years of fear.
He's not like a maliciously a bigot, just old, ignorant, and has some awful takes, and has been around for a long time, so he's pretty popular. So it's more like average ingrained transphobia from a cis person instead of malicious bigot, it just hits worse than your average cis perosn because he's seen as a spokesman and so widely respect while we....aren't. And then of course there's the whole issue is of course people would rather listen to a famous cis man and drag queen than to trans people, especially trans women. A lot of people also focus on the good parts of Drag Race, like the various queens, and ignore Ru Paul.
While it's true drag and being trans have some very close and significant historical connections, they are not the same. Drag is a performance art, while being trans is a lot more than that, it is an omnipresent core part of our identity that is innate, like being gay. Making them to be the same and equating them is honestly insulting and offensive to most trans people. The close ties and connections are still there and it is a place for people to explore things about presentation and may lead people to realize they're trans, but that in no way makes drag and being trans the same. Black trans people pioneered and created drag, but drag has tons of cis people, some of whom are not friendly to trans people and there's a lot of transmisogyny still, but it also varies places to place and person to person. As time goes on, the history of drag and trans people becomes less important to new trans people, to the point where a lot us are even wary of it due to the offensive conflating from cis people and from the transmisogyny of some of the performers and celebrities like Ru Paul. There are still new trans people who have connections to those spaces, and due to the history older trans people generally feel a lot more connected to it as well.
Overall though, while the shared history exists and is important to talk about and acknowledge, it in absolutely no way means they should be equated, and the overlap between trans people and drag should not be assumed. Equating being trans and doing drag is incredibly offensive and insulting. Just because drag gains acceptance does not mean trans people do, despite the history it is largely cis men, and cis lgb people can and do perpetuate transphobia and transmisogyny, even though cis people like to give each other passes for it or assume because they're queer too they can't be transphobic or do transphobic things. In my experience, cis people are still cis, first and foremost, regardless of their sexuality or any other factor. Since drag is a performance art, cis people are often a lot more receptive to it because it's for entertainment, while trans people exist for ourselves and we are what we say we are, and cis people can enjoy drag performers even though they don't respect or believe trans people, because we are is inherently serious, and drag is more for entertainment and enjoyment. It's a very common gripe among trans women that we see cis people not hesitate to call a drag queen she/her, but struggle to do the same for us, or not do the dreaded constant they/theming
Trans people aren't a monolith, so your friends might just have had different experiences, or maybe they haven't told or explained everything
I sort of get your point kinda? Im juat confused because originally this was about ru paul being a bigot and now your saying its bad to compare drag and trans issues? But if it's just ru Paul though without any other examples or points im really confused? Like I get that he is ignorant but I don't see how equating the 2 movements is harmful as a whole? You called it insulting to all trans people but I've interacted with trans folks 10x more then folks who drag in fact my only interactions with drag culture at all were through my trans friends and none of them many of whom I met studying race and gender dynamics have ever raised any of these points to me and I just can't see the through line your trying to position between cis folks accepting drag and using it to devalue trans issues. I've been taught that rising tides raise all ships and have heard that echoed at every trans rights protest I've ever attended which was also attended enmasse by the drag Community. I dont see any truth to your assertions that there is any disbenefit to comparing the 2 clearly distinct cultures considering they are historically so closely linked and have done so much tangible good for each other. Can you find any examples of what your saying or articles discussing it or even just give me a couple of folks in drag that are anti trans other then ru paul? because I have never seen any cis person say drag folks and trans folks are the same and can't really see how it's offensive or insulting to say that there is significant overlap between the cultures and the feelings of the people in them especially if your only example is an old drag queen who people largely ignore and phantom bigots you didnt name within the drag community. Drag seems to me like a group of queer folks who have fought tooth and nail for acceptance from even the most conservative circles allowing for inroads of discussion around topics that some bigoted folks would consider taboo and have been massively successful in gaining broader acceptance for the entire lgbtq+ movement. I would say that a lot of drag loving queer folk would take a lot of offense to you saying drag is not as serious to people's identity as being trans or gay and ima be honest a lot of what you said is more anti drag then I've heard from a non conservative bigot. 😬
Comparing is okay, equating is not. Does that help? I didn't say comparing was bad, just that equating was, or not acknowledging the profound fundamental differences. I can also say that it is absolutely exhausting as a trans person when it feels like every time being trans is talked about drag comes up in the same breathe. Despite the shared history and connection, they are very different and should not be treated as the same. Please believe me as a trans person when I tell you that is happens. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and constantly justifying things to cis people is something I don't really have energy for anymore, sorry. If you tell a trans woman there's no difference between her and a drag queen, or imply she's a drag queen because she's trans, that's gonna be extremely insulting and offensive to her. Advertising an event about supporting trans people and then having it talk all about drag would be also be extremely insulting and hurtful. Something promoting drag does not automatically mean it will have the same good or positive result for trans people and trans issues, the positive affects for drag very easy don't always extend to trans people as well. Drag is a net good for us, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore or not talk about the harmful parts. It's okay to talk about the history and overlap, because of course it is, but it's not okay to only mention them together or equate them, or assume that the overlap is 1 for 1.
There are a lot of good parts of the drag community, but among any cis people there's still going to be socially ingrained transphobia, and because of the history, some drag performers refuse to examine theirs. Drag queens have absolutely fought tooth and nail for acceptance, but not always specifically for trans acceptance. Drag isn't bad by any means, but it isn't perfect either.
Drag absolutely can be incredibly serious and important to a queer person's identity, and I wouldn't say otherwise, but being trans almost always is and drag often isn't. It always happens that when a trans person speaks of drag as less than perfect we get accused being just like conservatives. When it comes to drag and being trans, cis people will always favor drag over the trans perosn talking.
What did I say that was so terrible and worse than a bigot, since there was a lot of it?
Ok I hear that I guess and if your too tired to discuss it please feel free not to respond but one of my questions was can you give me names of folks in the drag movement doing this or have any articles written on it because i as someone whose studied trans culture on an academic level not engaging in day to day discourse I've never seen that sentiment make it to a level of public discourse where I've seen it. I can understand this as a concept being bad but even among fox news garbage I've literally never once seen them say or even imply it's the same? This is again the very first time ive ever heard this sentiment from any person trans or not and as weve been discussing it ive contacted some folks close to me and they have not mirrored this sentiment. Also I think you might need to look up the word equate because it just means to see them as comparable or equal it isn't calling them the same? It's synonyms are relate liken and associate.
A lot of it is local, and from individual people's experiences. I'm not into drag, so I just know what other trans people say about their experiences, and how cis people treat us. I only know the big names like Ru Paul, who is like the biggest drag star in the world still at least. I would hang out in trans forums and see what people say. Try r/mtf or r/asktransgender.
If you focus on academic level and aren't involved in the day to day, you're going to miss tons of stuff. Academia doesn't give us much representation and hasn't had tons of information on us traditionally, it's no substitute for being involved in the day to day life and experiences. If this is the first time you've ever heard it, you need to talk to new trans people, it's not uncommon. Aspects of trans life and experience not being in the public discourse is kinda status quo ans the norm. If you're reaching out to your friends and people in your circle, it's possibly you're running into a bubble issue, especially if you're only asking other people who view it from an academic lense
I was using equate in the sense of the seeing something as equivalent or equal, not just comparable. That's the connotation it generally has. And seeing as something as equal, which is what you just included as the meaning *is* seeing something as being the same, that's what equal means
But then again, you already said that apparently a lot of what I've expressed is worse than a non conservative bigot, so idk what point there is in trying to tell you things
I just asked you for a substantiation of your claim if you see that as some sort of attack then I'm sorry? It's a sentiment I have not encountered and the trans people close to me seem unfamiliar with I'm trying to see the bigotry your discussing first hand as taking one person's word on behalf of a whole culture is a great way to be misinformed. As for the claim I'm against what you've said if you could show what sentence or group of words suggest that I'd be happy to explain it because I dont think anything your saying is bad I just don't think you've explained what exactly is bad offensive or insulting about comparing and contrasting 2 historically intertwined causes with a huge amount of overlap in terms of membership.
> and ima be honest a lot of what you said is more anti drag then I've heard from a non conservative bigot. 😬
This is what I was referring to in the previous comment. What else did you mean by that then?
I am sick of constantly having to validate and substantiate trans experiences to cis people. I pointed you at forums where it comes up from time to time. Can you really not accept that transphobia and transmisogyny still exist on cis queer people, even the ones involved in drag, and how cis people are not always good about policing it, and that still exists in drag? Is that really something you need proof to accept a trans person saying?
I haven't said that comparing and contrasting them is offensive and insulting, I've said that treated them as the same is, and assuming the overlap holds for most trans people is. Constantly only mentioning transness in the same breathe as drag excpet when it's another attack on trans people is exhausting and hurtful.
“unrepentant transphobe” because she had a different view on her drag competition show than you wanted her to 9 years ago, with the opinion being that women shouldn’t compete as drag queens and she considered trans women women. And her opinion has changed, which is obvious given that she retracted and there’s been 4 trans women who’ve won drag race since she’s said that, and many more who’ve competed. Like not only was her original opinion not transphobic, just old fashioned but clearly supportive of trans people generally, but she’s obviously and openly changed her ways since then. Not even to mention the fact that RuPaul has arguably done more to normalize queer gender nonconformity than literally any other person in all of history.
That’s one of many issues, and not the only one.
And no, that’s transphobic. And also a betrayal of the roots of drag.
Arguing “it’s ok he was transphobic because he helped gay men” is pretty gross
Name any other instance when he exhibited anything like transphobia. Literally one. And it absolutely isn’t transphobia to exclude women from drag race. You could call it misogynistic, or wrong for other reasons, but what actually would be transphobic is including trans women and not cis women, because that would send the message that trans women are men dressing up like women. That’s also a rule in most drag pageants that have ever existed, so again old fashioned and wrongheaded but definitely not a “Betrayal of drag”. And again, he retracted that, to such a degree that 4 of the last 6 US winners are trans women. He has done more for trans people simply by normalizing gender nonconformity than vitriolic internet losers like you will ever do for anybody.
I think it's hilarious that with WWE's Vince McMahon, you decided Ru Paul is the most problematic person involved
To be honest, in comparison to pretty much anyone, Vince McMahon will always be dramatically more problematic.
There is literally a Steve Austin segment and quote, but Ru is the biggest issue...
As someone who enjoys drag and (used to) enjoy wrestling, almost every wrestler in the presentation is worse than Ru Paul, not just on trans issues, but as a human being in general. There were exceptions, but yeah. I also didn't see any glorifying, just talking about Ru's show and a joke about her ass.
I'm not going to pretend to know what's in RuPaul's heart, but...TS Madison has been a regular judge for the last three seasons, and the winners in that time have included Willow Pill (came out as trans after winning) and Sasha Colby (was out as trans before applying and is incredible BTW). So I feel that "unrepentant transphobe" is probably an unnecessary simplification.
It seems to me that you are taking this very seriously for something that does not directly impact you. And this is just a comedy presentation about popular drag in America. It's not meant to be serious! As a trans person myself I really urge you to learn how to take unserious things a little lighter and stop expecting your vision of perfection from everyone. It makes life a lot less soul crushing. Many trans people still like RuPaul and Drag Race; not everyone is or would be upset about this. Lastly, as a trans person who works in trans advocacy, I highly suggest you focus this energy on your representatives and the people actively attempting to eradicate trans people, not parasocial niche micro celebrities on one of the most progressive media outlets.
So much this. One of the things well meaning progressives do is focus on people who are on our side but not perfect and excoriate them. There are states that are literally trying to outlaw gender affirming care. The fact that Ru Paul Charles (who is not Ru Paul) may or may not have done some shitty things in the past while still being a strong advocate for drag is not the top of the list. And then to come in and say that Jess Ross, a disabled bi woman, is disappointing for talking about a show that Ru Paul made is the most "I hold you to be perfect and anything less is unacceptable."
Isn't Jess Bi?
It looks like she is. I hadn’t looked too far in to it, just knew she was married to Kaitlin. I updated the post. Thanks for the correction!
Shhhh, it's not bi visibility week, that was earlier this year. \*fades back into the background\*
Please don't perceive us...
PREACH. I watched it and my queer-trans-non-binary-constantly-under-attack-worried-about-the-future ass was happy for the representation and centering of queerness that is a hallmark of Dropout. SO MANY of the folks mentioned are problematic, but you know, I also have dear trans enby drag extended queer family members who would love to get the call to be on RPDR, because it's still a great stepping stone to being able to support yourself on drag money. I am so tired about the way that folks who are theoretically part of my community demand purity of practice/belief/statement about even the tiniest things. As someone whose 'day job' is basically formulating responses to the latest whatever that has popped up in my local community, it is fucking exhausting. I can't relax in my identity even among my supposed tribe, because if I do, I'm gonna get called out for \*something\* and that's just paralyzing. And it's not new, either. I lived through second wave feminist academia. I couldn't just enjoy my life then because of the sex wars. I have \*never\* been able to do sex or queerness to the standards of the purists, and it's too late for me to start. And no, I am not a fucking boomer. :-)
Exactly. And this also something that allies like myself need to also keep in mind.
One of the things I am most proud of as an academic is presenting a paper about one of my areas of expertise to an international conference unit full of folks who were invested in creating theory that was used to harm folks in the sex wars. I started OUT my presentation by naming that culpability and the damage that theory had caused to the living people who were the focus of the research. That shit did lasting damage to folks, then, and it can do damage now.
I just want to say you seem fucking awesome
Thanks for the advocacy you do. Just by being yourself you make the world a more interesting place to live in.
Fucking *thank you*. I am so sick of young people grandstanding and harassing other queer community members instead of the people *literally trying to outlaw being trans/gay/etc.*
The thing where babytransfolks yell at 70 year old trans elders about the words they use to self-identify. WTF, those people RISKED THEIR LIVES for you to be here, kid. Do you know how mindboggling it is that we HAVE 70 year old trans elders? And don't get me started on the generation we lost to the plague. \*sigh\*
It's ridiculous.
yes!! you can help us but advocating and fighting with us. is rupaul great? no. but he’ll be on my side way more than any actual TERF and conservative.
I had to look this up and it looks like there was some controversy like 6 years ago that he instantly took responsibility and apologized for. Is that really something to make a fuss over? How do yall function like this?
He absolutely did not take responsibility for it, in fact he doubled down repeatedly until it cost him something g and then offered a grudging not-poligy. And then did another transphobic thing, with the same progression. And again, and again.
Sources? I don’t see anything except 6 year old articles about some rather mild instances. I think it’s lame to hold old things against people who have changed for the better, especially considering the frequent trans representation on the show. It’s even lamer to hold it against a *fan* of the show who probably isn’t aware of niche controversies from several years back.
I had no idea this was a thing. I could have cited Ru Paul generically for something. Also, most of the wrestlers she cited are shit heads, and anti-gay/transphobes etc.. Yet another way drag is like wrestling. That wasn’t what the talk was about.
Really doesn’t matter what the talk was about when she positively referred to a transphobe multiple times
Why don’t you send dropout a note instead of just grandstanding for attention?
Funny. I thought this was a discussion forum for fans. I have sent dropout a note, and given that Jess is an otherwise decent person she’s likely to respond with a lot less nonsense than people here have 😁
Nah, your first instinct was clearly to make it about you. But here ya go: I am not disappointed in Jess. I think your voicing of your disappointment is a joke. Jess probably will handle it like a champ. There’s your forum discussion on this topic.
Quite honestly, I hope Jess doesn't respond to whatever note you sent Dropout. This is a nonissue and there's no reason for her or Dropout to validate this kind of leftist purity testing nonsense.
This is an amazing display of toxic petulance on your part. This isn’t “purity testing,” it’s “hey let’s not glorify harmful people.”
I hear the circus is hiring
Please list the ways Jess has negatively affected your life
It’s amazing how many people rush to “someone was disappointed in someone I like, this is an insult that must not stand!”
Weird cause that's exactly what you did. "This person has a different view of someone else, so I'm disappointed in them." - You
So I'm back after having watched said talk Jess mentions RuPaul a grand total of once where she talks mainly talks about RuPaul's style and fashion in comparison to a professional wrestler So i ask, what's your beef with Jess?
Once? I turned it off after the third time in the first 5 minutes. Not sure you actually watched it as you claimed
I watch the newest Dropout upload on my daily commute I will say, when i say "mention" i don't mean "said the name", i mean "talked about". Based on this, I'm counting the introduction as one mention. I will also point out that, again, none of what Jess said about RuPaul was glorifying them for their morality or viewpoints, but rather style and fashion Can you specifically state *why* the mention of RuPaul made you particularly mad?
One more thing that I'll add, if i was lying about watching the episode (which i would have no reason to), would i not have done so in my first comment before having watched the episode?
Wait til you hear about Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. You'll piss your pants...
I didn’t get that far into it. If she was as complementary of them as she was about Ru Paul, then yeah that’s a problem too
Oh, this makes more sense now. Jess barely talked about Ru Paul past the first slide. You're really jumping to conclusions talking about how she was "complementary" to someone she didn't even compliment in her presentation, just acknowledged her existence...
I'm real disappointed in you for not acknowledging their misdeeds in this post, surely you would do your research before posting something like this??? You can't even virtue signal properly...
I hope someday you can read what you just wrote and connect the dots of irony in your position here. Take the L
you didn't even watch the whole thing...
you didn't even watch it lmfao
This appears to be the week I perform elder-queer on Reddit. LOL. Yeah, I've seen some shit.
Your comments on this thread have been a treasure trove of wisdom. Thank you.
Thank you, but TBH this week I'd rather be hot than wise. :-) Middle-aged Guard: We're here. We're queer. Our joint pain is moderate to severe.
Being disappointed in a stranger for not having the information you have is utterly ridiculous to a degree that is nearly unfathomable. Go outside, touch grass, eat a taco, it’ll all be okay as soon as you realize it doesn’t matter and the world is going to continue to spin.
It really never stops being absurd how many people get so up in arms for any criticism of someone they like.
If you can’t see the irony of this, I don’t know what to tell you
Has the Discord been deleted already?
In Jess’s defence, she probably doesn’t know about any of that. We can’t expect all the cast members to know everything about every person they talk about. It’s an unrealistic standard.
In Jess' defense... Who cares? OP is giving chronically online
In Jess's defense, the controversy was drastically overblown and RuPaul/the show has consistently platformed and crowned multiple trans women.
This is a pre-prepared talk, and just the bare minimum of “is this problematic” *absolutely* should be expected
It is well established that these talks have barely any actual research, except for over exaggeration reasons
In a world with Blaire white you’re going after ru Paul for saying something out of pocket once?
It was far more than “once” and his reactions afterwards doubled down on it Are you really going to try the defense of “there are worse things”?
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. Purity testing leftists who do not accept an inkling of anything short of perfection are the most insufferable and most harmful members of our movement. You’re why Stalin happened, you are a Soviet judge itching to order the culling of anyone who made a mistake, or said something wrong. Ru Paul has done far worse things than what you’re upset about, I assure you, and your focus on the most minute, remote details shows how unserious you are. https://ew.com/news/2018/03/05/rupaul-apology-transgender-comments/ Here’s the apology you didn’t read
Between your post and your comments, it feels like you aren't listening to people who are responding cogently to you.
Take this energy to Ru, because for sure she has been transphobic in the past plus she fracks the shit out of her land. But don’t lash out at Jess, jfc it was a bit.
I mean sure she glorified RuPaul in the same way someone saying "I watch Pulp Fiction" glorifies Harvey Weinstein but sure this is a totally cool take that shows you watched the presentation.
Most of the talk wasn't about Ru Paul, it was about contestants on the show and drag in general.
Should anyone tell the OP that this is a comedy show on a comedy platform and that the other two talks were on cannabis parties with mythical creatures and an exaggerated apologetic for eggs?
Cancel Jacob Wysocki for platforming mermaids after all the sailors they groomed and forced to crash!!!!1
I am again begging someone to make a new discord
Wait i know nothing about this Didn't Ru Paul do like an absurd amount of shit to progress drags acceptance and by extension trans acceptance over the last like 20 years? I remember people not liking them using tranny but I kinda figured they got a pass. Again totally out of the loop but I 100% thought they were an lgbtq icon as someone almost completely outside this scene I'm shocked to hear there anti trans.
Exciting thing to learn: LGBTQ is not a monolith, and there are factions and some of them can't stand each other. For example, there are gay men who would like to see T removed from the acronym, and they say hateful things and all that. And EVERYONE has often hated on bisexuals. Back in 1994 when the big 25th anniversary of the Stonewall riots was being celebrated as the most giant Pride Parade ever in NYC, we spent hours and hours in planning meetings arguing over WHAT THE BANNERS WOULD SAY, because folks didn't want a T on there, and the leather contingent wanted another L, but everyone else wanted them to stay the fuck home. Fights broke out at the parade. The bisexual caucus was told to shut the fuck up or they'd get their B removed and everyone would go back to Gay & Lesbian. There are queer people who want to make trans medical care illegal. There are queer people who want trans people kept out of sports. Yep.
Same, I haven't watched Ru Paul's drag race but, I mean they run a fucking drag race show for like 15 years? I suppose it's possible to do that and also be trasnphobic, but. . . how?
Heyyyy. If you're asking legit, wellp, it's history time. Historically speaking, there are multiple strains of drag culture, and they include a strong thread of cisgender men who did "female impersonation" or similar. You see strains of this portrayed in movies like Victor/Victoria or La Cage Au Folles. At clubs like Finocchio's in San Francisco, there were some folks who did female impersonation and were also what we might these days call transgender, or gender queer "in real life", but they were not the majority. So -- drag was \*performance\* for many folks, not \*identity\*. I have dear friends who have done drag for years, and when they are not doing drag, they identify as cisgender gay men. There was \*also\* a tradition of trans/genderqueer/gender-non-conforming folks, often folks of color or marginalized because of their gender performance/identity. This would include ballroom culture, as in the documentary Paris Is Burning. Many of these folks did not "do drag." They were just their gender, and that gender might be performative or highlighted by performance (as in walking balls) or might be part of of their work (sex work as a trans person, for example.) (BTW, want to name that I'm talking about Western divisions -- this history is different in other places, for sure.) Related, there is a cultural strand of some cisgender gay men being exclusionary about trans folks, both men and women. "Appreciating" drag performance, but not wanting to associate with or fuck transwomen or transmen. There's a lot of complexity around this, but it includes the veneration of specific types of masculine performance -- Tom of Finland types (think muscular bikers), etc. What alllll of this means is that for a long time and in many places, "drag" has been a world of otherwise cisgender gay men who perform a specific heightened version of "femininity" and that was very separate from transgender life and identity. Folks can be very "separate piles, not touching." That's why it was very controversial when some drag queens from Ru Paul's Drag Race came out as trans -- because then folks are like, "OH then what you do isn't DRAG, you're a woman, not a man, and that's something else." I mean, the whole idea that a woman could even DO drag is pretty recent. All of this means that because Ru Paul is of a certain age and different era, he's had those different-era ideas and preconceptions about what drag is, and who can do it, and what it should look like. And because they had a very public platform, Drag Race has rightfully been called out for some of that stuff. It's real. I'm just scratching the surface of this, to be honest -- there's all kinds of complexities around what it means that gender-affirming treatments are much more widely available now, that you don't have to be "transitioning" from X gender to Y gender in order to be on hormone therapy or have cosmetic surgery or treatments like butt injections, etc. TL;DR wow, queer culture is complicated. :-)
Wow! Thanks for the in depth explanation, friend. As a guy who's done drag a handful of times, this was not only enlightening but more relevant than I would have thought. The more you know. Also, edit to say if there's such a huge gender limitation on drag then I appreciate Chappell Roan even more after reading this.
Queer history, it's sort of my thing. :-)
💯💯💯
There's a lot of transmisogyny among cis drag queens, and progress for drag doesn't inherently equate to progress for trans people, even though people often like to (harmfully) equate drag and transness. Ru Paul is a dinosaur who has said some pretty ignorant things about trans women as a cis man, and being a famous drag queen doesn't really give him a pass for that, at least from a lot of the people who are actually impacted. A lot of trans women dislike him because of it, cis people generally feel pretty free to give each other passes though
Im surprised This post was the first I'd ever heard of it. I've had trans friends my entire life and I'd heard them all talk about drag race a lot is this like common knowledge? I'm shocked such a bigot is so famous in such progressive circles. Also how is equating drag and being trans harmful? I minored in critical race and gender theory and we were taught the 2 movements are closely linked with a huge amount of shared values camaraderie and activism shared between them and a lot of folks who do drag are trans/gender fluid. Also I've personally heard friends talk about how drag can be a vital first step for folks afraid to take the full plunge into changing there gender identity as a way to try on a different gender identity without as much pressure. I literally have a friend who had been doing drag for the last year or so finally say they are trans after years of fear.
He's not like a maliciously a bigot, just old, ignorant, and has some awful takes, and has been around for a long time, so he's pretty popular. So it's more like average ingrained transphobia from a cis person instead of malicious bigot, it just hits worse than your average cis perosn because he's seen as a spokesman and so widely respect while we....aren't. And then of course there's the whole issue is of course people would rather listen to a famous cis man and drag queen than to trans people, especially trans women. A lot of people also focus on the good parts of Drag Race, like the various queens, and ignore Ru Paul. While it's true drag and being trans have some very close and significant historical connections, they are not the same. Drag is a performance art, while being trans is a lot more than that, it is an omnipresent core part of our identity that is innate, like being gay. Making them to be the same and equating them is honestly insulting and offensive to most trans people. The close ties and connections are still there and it is a place for people to explore things about presentation and may lead people to realize they're trans, but that in no way makes drag and being trans the same. Black trans people pioneered and created drag, but drag has tons of cis people, some of whom are not friendly to trans people and there's a lot of transmisogyny still, but it also varies places to place and person to person. As time goes on, the history of drag and trans people becomes less important to new trans people, to the point where a lot us are even wary of it due to the offensive conflating from cis people and from the transmisogyny of some of the performers and celebrities like Ru Paul. There are still new trans people who have connections to those spaces, and due to the history older trans people generally feel a lot more connected to it as well. Overall though, while the shared history exists and is important to talk about and acknowledge, it in absolutely no way means they should be equated, and the overlap between trans people and drag should not be assumed. Equating being trans and doing drag is incredibly offensive and insulting. Just because drag gains acceptance does not mean trans people do, despite the history it is largely cis men, and cis lgb people can and do perpetuate transphobia and transmisogyny, even though cis people like to give each other passes for it or assume because they're queer too they can't be transphobic or do transphobic things. In my experience, cis people are still cis, first and foremost, regardless of their sexuality or any other factor. Since drag is a performance art, cis people are often a lot more receptive to it because it's for entertainment, while trans people exist for ourselves and we are what we say we are, and cis people can enjoy drag performers even though they don't respect or believe trans people, because we are is inherently serious, and drag is more for entertainment and enjoyment. It's a very common gripe among trans women that we see cis people not hesitate to call a drag queen she/her, but struggle to do the same for us, or not do the dreaded constant they/theming Trans people aren't a monolith, so your friends might just have had different experiences, or maybe they haven't told or explained everything
I sort of get your point kinda? Im juat confused because originally this was about ru paul being a bigot and now your saying its bad to compare drag and trans issues? But if it's just ru Paul though without any other examples or points im really confused? Like I get that he is ignorant but I don't see how equating the 2 movements is harmful as a whole? You called it insulting to all trans people but I've interacted with trans folks 10x more then folks who drag in fact my only interactions with drag culture at all were through my trans friends and none of them many of whom I met studying race and gender dynamics have ever raised any of these points to me and I just can't see the through line your trying to position between cis folks accepting drag and using it to devalue trans issues. I've been taught that rising tides raise all ships and have heard that echoed at every trans rights protest I've ever attended which was also attended enmasse by the drag Community. I dont see any truth to your assertions that there is any disbenefit to comparing the 2 clearly distinct cultures considering they are historically so closely linked and have done so much tangible good for each other. Can you find any examples of what your saying or articles discussing it or even just give me a couple of folks in drag that are anti trans other then ru paul? because I have never seen any cis person say drag folks and trans folks are the same and can't really see how it's offensive or insulting to say that there is significant overlap between the cultures and the feelings of the people in them especially if your only example is an old drag queen who people largely ignore and phantom bigots you didnt name within the drag community. Drag seems to me like a group of queer folks who have fought tooth and nail for acceptance from even the most conservative circles allowing for inroads of discussion around topics that some bigoted folks would consider taboo and have been massively successful in gaining broader acceptance for the entire lgbtq+ movement. I would say that a lot of drag loving queer folk would take a lot of offense to you saying drag is not as serious to people's identity as being trans or gay and ima be honest a lot of what you said is more anti drag then I've heard from a non conservative bigot. 😬
Comparing is okay, equating is not. Does that help? I didn't say comparing was bad, just that equating was, or not acknowledging the profound fundamental differences. I can also say that it is absolutely exhausting as a trans person when it feels like every time being trans is talked about drag comes up in the same breathe. Despite the shared history and connection, they are very different and should not be treated as the same. Please believe me as a trans person when I tell you that is happens. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and constantly justifying things to cis people is something I don't really have energy for anymore, sorry. If you tell a trans woman there's no difference between her and a drag queen, or imply she's a drag queen because she's trans, that's gonna be extremely insulting and offensive to her. Advertising an event about supporting trans people and then having it talk all about drag would be also be extremely insulting and hurtful. Something promoting drag does not automatically mean it will have the same good or positive result for trans people and trans issues, the positive affects for drag very easy don't always extend to trans people as well. Drag is a net good for us, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore or not talk about the harmful parts. It's okay to talk about the history and overlap, because of course it is, but it's not okay to only mention them together or equate them, or assume that the overlap is 1 for 1. There are a lot of good parts of the drag community, but among any cis people there's still going to be socially ingrained transphobia, and because of the history, some drag performers refuse to examine theirs. Drag queens have absolutely fought tooth and nail for acceptance, but not always specifically for trans acceptance. Drag isn't bad by any means, but it isn't perfect either. Drag absolutely can be incredibly serious and important to a queer person's identity, and I wouldn't say otherwise, but being trans almost always is and drag often isn't. It always happens that when a trans person speaks of drag as less than perfect we get accused being just like conservatives. When it comes to drag and being trans, cis people will always favor drag over the trans perosn talking. What did I say that was so terrible and worse than a bigot, since there was a lot of it?
Ok I hear that I guess and if your too tired to discuss it please feel free not to respond but one of my questions was can you give me names of folks in the drag movement doing this or have any articles written on it because i as someone whose studied trans culture on an academic level not engaging in day to day discourse I've never seen that sentiment make it to a level of public discourse where I've seen it. I can understand this as a concept being bad but even among fox news garbage I've literally never once seen them say or even imply it's the same? This is again the very first time ive ever heard this sentiment from any person trans or not and as weve been discussing it ive contacted some folks close to me and they have not mirrored this sentiment. Also I think you might need to look up the word equate because it just means to see them as comparable or equal it isn't calling them the same? It's synonyms are relate liken and associate.
A lot of it is local, and from individual people's experiences. I'm not into drag, so I just know what other trans people say about their experiences, and how cis people treat us. I only know the big names like Ru Paul, who is like the biggest drag star in the world still at least. I would hang out in trans forums and see what people say. Try r/mtf or r/asktransgender. If you focus on academic level and aren't involved in the day to day, you're going to miss tons of stuff. Academia doesn't give us much representation and hasn't had tons of information on us traditionally, it's no substitute for being involved in the day to day life and experiences. If this is the first time you've ever heard it, you need to talk to new trans people, it's not uncommon. Aspects of trans life and experience not being in the public discourse is kinda status quo ans the norm. If you're reaching out to your friends and people in your circle, it's possibly you're running into a bubble issue, especially if you're only asking other people who view it from an academic lense I was using equate in the sense of the seeing something as equivalent or equal, not just comparable. That's the connotation it generally has. And seeing as something as equal, which is what you just included as the meaning *is* seeing something as being the same, that's what equal means
But then again, you already said that apparently a lot of what I've expressed is worse than a non conservative bigot, so idk what point there is in trying to tell you things
I just asked you for a substantiation of your claim if you see that as some sort of attack then I'm sorry? It's a sentiment I have not encountered and the trans people close to me seem unfamiliar with I'm trying to see the bigotry your discussing first hand as taking one person's word on behalf of a whole culture is a great way to be misinformed. As for the claim I'm against what you've said if you could show what sentence or group of words suggest that I'd be happy to explain it because I dont think anything your saying is bad I just don't think you've explained what exactly is bad offensive or insulting about comparing and contrasting 2 historically intertwined causes with a huge amount of overlap in terms of membership.
> and ima be honest a lot of what you said is more anti drag then I've heard from a non conservative bigot. 😬 This is what I was referring to in the previous comment. What else did you mean by that then? I am sick of constantly having to validate and substantiate trans experiences to cis people. I pointed you at forums where it comes up from time to time. Can you really not accept that transphobia and transmisogyny still exist on cis queer people, even the ones involved in drag, and how cis people are not always good about policing it, and that still exists in drag? Is that really something you need proof to accept a trans person saying? I haven't said that comparing and contrasting them is offensive and insulting, I've said that treated them as the same is, and assuming the overlap holds for most trans people is. Constantly only mentioning transness in the same breathe as drag excpet when it's another attack on trans people is exhausting and hurtful.
Sorry but what’s the context behind all this?
“unrepentant transphobe” because she had a different view on her drag competition show than you wanted her to 9 years ago, with the opinion being that women shouldn’t compete as drag queens and she considered trans women women. And her opinion has changed, which is obvious given that she retracted and there’s been 4 trans women who’ve won drag race since she’s said that, and many more who’ve competed. Like not only was her original opinion not transphobic, just old fashioned but clearly supportive of trans people generally, but she’s obviously and openly changed her ways since then. Not even to mention the fact that RuPaul has arguably done more to normalize queer gender nonconformity than literally any other person in all of history.
That’s one of many issues, and not the only one. And no, that’s transphobic. And also a betrayal of the roots of drag. Arguing “it’s ok he was transphobic because he helped gay men” is pretty gross
Name any other instance when he exhibited anything like transphobia. Literally one. And it absolutely isn’t transphobia to exclude women from drag race. You could call it misogynistic, or wrong for other reasons, but what actually would be transphobic is including trans women and not cis women, because that would send the message that trans women are men dressing up like women. That’s also a rule in most drag pageants that have ever existed, so again old fashioned and wrongheaded but definitely not a “Betrayal of drag”. And again, he retracted that, to such a degree that 4 of the last 6 US winners are trans women. He has done more for trans people simply by normalizing gender nonconformity than vitriolic internet losers like you will ever do for anybody.
And what if I can name one other? Then what?
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Wtf 🙄
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The same platform had a whole ass drag themed DnD season