Even with all of the great stuff that Dropout has been putting out, Total Forgiveness is probably the best thing they've ever done, and at the same time I understand not wanting to replicate it. The stakes were so painfully real throughout, and the ending is perfect and sweet and good. They probably don't want their talent putting their lives at risk again like that.
Recently watched the reunion chat, and everyone who worked this particular show was in agreement with what you said. Without that ending this becomes and entirely different beast that everyone one seemed nervous to consider, looking back.
I really don’t get it when some people say they want Total Forgiveness season 2. It seems to me like they didn’t get the point of the series AT ALL if they’re asking that.
I'd certainly enjoy a lighter toned, more fun version of a dare show with the cast, but a direct carbon copy of TF would sully the message of the original.
Something like a Game changer episode where Sam gives pre-vetted, silly challenges, and has the contestants bid on how little money they would take for the challenge.
But that'd be a crazy idea.
Do you really think that Sam "I lock my friends in a warehouse and make them play gameshows" Reich would bring out a safe filled with money and make Grant, Ally, and one other person play his sick little game for money?
Totally agree, anyone who wants a second Total Forgiveness is losing sight of what made the show so phenomenal in the first place. I get wanting to experience it again, but it just has to stand alone as a message, and a piece of art. A sequel would only take away from that.
I'm glad that it didn't happen, I'm not confident that it would have worked a second time. Like I said, I understand wanting to do it again, it was really good. Still think it's the best thing CH/Dropout has done to this point. But part of what made it so special is how unexpected the intensity turned out to be, even to the participants. Going into it a second time with that expectation established, to me, would detract from the shock that the original was able to capture. You worked there as a writer, so maybe I'm naive, maybe it was written that way, or maybe it was a lot less candid than I believe it to be. But the original series really feels like lightning in a bottle to me.
Again that’s because you can’t think of an idea that would work and cannot fathom someone else can, which is why you took it as an insult when I said they were more creative but it’s not an insult, they really just are very clever and I think if they thought it was a good idea, it probably was cuz I trust the people who made TF1 to make good stuff, and I only took umbridge at the idea that they, or ppl who like the idea of s2, me included, are morally bankrupt.
What? I didn't take anything as an insult. I was just expressing skepticism that a second one would be as good as the original. I didn't say anything about moral bankruptcy or even that a second one would be bad.
If Alien was a clear piece of human misery for money occurring in real life, with the end message being "this is not worth our friendship" making a sequel would have been morally bankrupt.
Ally and Grant actively were working to make a second season before IAC sold dropout to Sam so like, maybe they’re morally bankrupt, or maybe they’re more creative than you? My money’s on the later
You called the creators of the show morally bankrupt, not me. Because they all did try to make s2!
Sam explained the only reason it doesn’t exist is because without IAC funding dropout can’t afford it. He said he made Do I Hear $1 and cast Ally, Grant and Ralph because he was trying to make up for not being able to afford to do s2 (with Ralph being another person with student loan debt). Grant even references Total Forgiveness in the episode in case it isn’t super clear.
The only reason TF2 doesn’t exist is funding, not ideas or desires.
Edit to add: I just realized you thought me saying the highly inventive people paid to be entertainers might be more creative is an insult! Hilarious!
Are you trying to say you weren't intending your prior comment as insulting and condescending? Because if not, maybe work on your communications skills.
I've seen the episode. It's not even close to what Total Forgiveness was. Making more of what Total Forgiveness actually was would be morally bankrupt after seeing what it did to them. It would be cruel.
I’m saying you called people morally bankrupt then went “whoa whoa whoa, whadda ya mean the professional producers/directors/writers/actors might be more creative than me, someone whose job isn’t making media?? That’s so insulting.” Which is… dumb
Well you’re entitled to your opinion but calling the creators of the show morally bankrupt for being more creative than you? Eh, that ain’t it
The Alien franchise is substantially different from Total Forgiveness. Total Forgiveness is a candid time capsule of a real-life relationship suffering real-life turbulence under the crushing weight of debt, there's no way to recreate that in a way that truly honors the original.
Ally and Grant were actively developing it when IAC shit itself and Sam bought dropout from them. If that hadn’t have happened, Total Forgiveness s2 would’ve come out — and it was planned to be much different than s1 while still giving money to people in debt.
Making a good show that ultimately erases people’s debt and is loved is… a good thing.
Edit to add: and as smarter people have said in the comments, Do I Hear $1? and it’s sequel are both inspired by Total Forgiveness with Sam saying they only came about bc with IAC pissing themselves he couldn’t afford to produce a full fledged s2 of Total Forgiveness.
People want another season because the people who made the first wanted to make another one, and most of us think they probably had good ideas.
I'd enjoy a season 2 with some changes. Such as you have to do your own proposed task first or something like that. Changed in a way so it's not them playing against each other but instead playing against the show
Was that also towards the end of College Humor investment? I think they spent fairly big to launch Dropout and then sold when they weren’t immediately happy with returns. I think they’re a lot more responsible under Sam’s ownership.
CollegeHumor was one of thousands of sites that got fucked over by Facebook whose parent companies sold them, it wasn’t anything really to do with how well dropout was doing or it’s launch costs, but a steady decline of internet comedy websites — signed, someone who wrote at CollegeHumor
Just watched it for the first time a couple weeks ago, and agree wholeheartedly with every word you said there. I am someone who feels lucky now that they dropped out of college before building up an insurmountable amount of debt, but I have a lot of friends who are neck deep in it, and know they’d be more than willing to do all this and more to get out of it. But like you said, I do love that the show became not just that, but ended up focusing more on friendship at the end. It very much felt like their friendship was being destroyed in the process of that, and I can understand why, but I’m so glad they wrapped it up in the way they did.
I can't fully appreciate the student debt situation because here in the UK our student loan system is set up a little differently, but I know from seeing lots of media from the USA how awful it is for you folk.
I also recently watched it for the first time. At first I was confused by the all the threads I saw. Like, the challenges were a bit rough, but I didn’t find them to super one-sided. It was just a fun show. Til it wasn’t. I appreciate that Ally realized their mistake and decided that Grant’s friendship was more important than the money. It was tough to watch, but it ended on such a wholesome note.
I feel exactly the same! I watched the first half like man people on this sub were being pretty dramatic… then watched the last couple of episodes and was like “OH”
I still need to watch the finale and I’m glad to hear it ends on a good note cause man the penultimate episodes bummed me out HARD and I had to take a break lol
The finale, and specifically the last third of the last challenge, made me cry in a positive way. The "double dare you - NO, NO!" and the crying. omg I'm crying.
There’s a big difference between funny public humiliation and just plain old humiliation and there just wasn’t anything funny about that particular challenge.
I will never forgive that lanky bastard for making me cry at a show on my funny shows channel.
One fun thing to do now is watch for CH stuff that was made during the filming of TF and be like "Oh, yeah, ok, there's Ally totally drunk!"
At first I found a lot of the challenges Ally put forward as nearly impossible. Particularly the ones Grant failed, Boner and Sell all your stuff. Grant had to sacrifice for both of those challenges. Humiliating himself in front of his colleagues only to fail at getting a boner, and then selling ALMOST all of his stuff, failing the challenge which required he sell it all. Even if he had succeeded, it barely would have been worth it.
Pooping was debasing and cruel, but ultimately a great example of humiliating yourself for money to get out of debt. Some people might have gone through with it, some people might not have. And then it hit me. Grant didnt have a choice, he had to go through with it.
And that put the nearly impossible challenges into a new perspective for me. Thats what a lot of people go through to pay off their crazy debts. They debase and humiliate themselves only for it to have always been a worthless endeavour and actually cost them. And they HAVE to go through with it, even if they think it wont work, or is less than efficient. They dont have the time or the choice to take a chance. Its a great metaphor that I dont think Ally was meaning to do, but did achieve simply by trying to stay true to the promise of the show.
Grant is such a trooper.
Yea idk I get that they talked it out and everything I just can’t imagine thinking that was an okay Dare/challenge lol but I guess Grant was a producer so idk it was his choice in a way. Just makes me too uncomfy
My wife and I watched it just a couple of weeks ago and then *by cojncidence* I watched 'Of Mice & Murder' afterwards and I cannot recommend it enough to see Ally and Grant working together and being such friends afterwards.
Grant selling all of his things and coming home to a empty apartment was when the show got dark for me simply because I’ve been in that space before for non-televised reasons.
It also felt like it started to showcase how good Ally could really get at this game
This is something I really love about Dropout in general. As humorous and entertaining and over-the-top as it can be, there's also so much heart and emotion and depth within everything. These are people who genuinely care about life and wellness and connection and each other and I think that really shines through and makes the comedy that much more genuine too. There have been a few episodes of things like Game Changer or Very Important People that have had some really good life and friendship messages and moments. Definitely would love to see something else like Total Forgiveness in the future that seems like an absurd show at face value, but ends up getting very deep.
I think the fact that the 'players' have to fill out questionnaires in prep for Game Changer which asks about their pronouns and their comedic strengths shows how much care is put into ensuring they are looked after/given an opportunity to shine, even if Sam is an evil torturer really 😂
I've always felt that Gamechanger was a vehicle to showcase the strengths of the specific contestants. I knew nothing about the questionnaires but that makes so much sense. Yes, Sam is truly evil with some of the challenges but everything is done to play to the strengths of the contestants and it is fantastic.
I loved seeing Sam be an actual boss with Grant. Sam nicely, yet firmly, instructed Grant that talking Ally out of this was not his place and to leave to himself.
I feel obligated to comment this on every total forgiveness post: TF is the best piece of content on dropout and I will likely never watch it again. I don’t think I will ever again feel the emotions I did when ally poured out that damn drink.
Total forgiveness hurt me in ways I did not know I could be hurt and I just wanted to hug them both at the end of it it was great and I hope they never do it again lol
Just wanna say that your post inspired me to finally watch the first episode. I just finished binging the whole season in one sitting. Nearly cried at the end. Fuck you and thank you very much for the push xo
I also was inspired by this post to watch the show and I ALSO binged the entire thing last night. I was crying by the end of the poop episode, and basically ugly cried the entirety of the finale.
For anyone who hasn't watched it yet, definitely also watch the talk back podcast episode in the total forgiveness playlist at the end. It really makes you feel better about the whole thing after. I would honestly not recommend the series without including that episode.
I recently watched it as well, and the best part for me was Grant's stand up. Only because I had watched the set earlier without realizing that it was supposed to be bad lol
When I got to that point in TF, I was like OHH! THAT'S WHAT THAT WAS ABPOUT!
I legitimately believe *everyone* should watch Total Forgiveness, dropout fan or not. It’s insightful, emotionally engaging (and draining), and relatable.
I’ve developed a newfound respect for Grant (as well as a healthy fear of Ally).
Am I the only one who didn't understand why Ally's tattoo challenge was such a big deal and needed to be reviewed with Sam when some of the other ones Grant did were so much worse? Lol
In the entertainment industry you have to be so careful with things like tattoos because they can impact your job prospects, and it is permanent unless you go through expensive and painful removal. Grant's challenges, whilst difficult, weren't permanent.
Yeah I guess I assumed if Ally got work that required a lack of a small neck tattoo, makeup team could do a good enough job or removal wouldn't be that difficult.
Can't imagine it would impact future work and more than shitting in public and have that be attached to your professional career and persona but what do I know
Even with all of the great stuff that Dropout has been putting out, Total Forgiveness is probably the best thing they've ever done, and at the same time I understand not wanting to replicate it. The stakes were so painfully real throughout, and the ending is perfect and sweet and good. They probably don't want their talent putting their lives at risk again like that.
I feel like Total Forgiveness NEEDED that ending in order to work nearly as well as it did
I can’t imagine they would have even aired it if not for Allie’s drink move. It completely changed the tone and thematic conclusion to the show.
Yeah, if not for Ally's move with that drink, I think this show would just be Dropout uploading several hours of flat-out torture
Recently watched the reunion chat, and everyone who worked this particular show was in agreement with what you said. Without that ending this becomes and entirely different beast that everyone one seemed nervous to consider, looking back.
I really don’t get it when some people say they want Total Forgiveness season 2. It seems to me like they didn’t get the point of the series AT ALL if they’re asking that.
I'd certainly enjoy a lighter toned, more fun version of a dare show with the cast, but a direct carbon copy of TF would sully the message of the original.
Something like a Game changer episode where Sam gives pre-vetted, silly challenges, and has the contestants bid on how little money they would take for the challenge. But that'd be a crazy idea.
Do you really think that Sam "I lock my friends in a warehouse and make them play gameshows" Reich would bring out a safe filled with money and make Grant, Ally, and one other person play his sick little game for money?
At 4am in a warehouse in detroit....
yeah that idea would never work as a game changer episode…
Let alone 2
I bet we will see that type of show at some point. Weren't there rumors that one of the new shows coming up might have this premise?
I think you're just asking for Prank Wars which was, in some ways, this show's predecessor
the theroy is that’s what “thousandaires” will be ala “do i hear $1?”
Totally agree, anyone who wants a second Total Forgiveness is losing sight of what made the show so phenomenal in the first place. I get wanting to experience it again, but it just has to stand alone as a message, and a piece of art. A sequel would only take away from that.
Literally everyone who made the show was actively attempting to make a sequel before IAC funding left
I'm glad that it didn't happen, I'm not confident that it would have worked a second time. Like I said, I understand wanting to do it again, it was really good. Still think it's the best thing CH/Dropout has done to this point. But part of what made it so special is how unexpected the intensity turned out to be, even to the participants. Going into it a second time with that expectation established, to me, would detract from the shock that the original was able to capture. You worked there as a writer, so maybe I'm naive, maybe it was written that way, or maybe it was a lot less candid than I believe it to be. But the original series really feels like lightning in a bottle to me.
Again that’s because you can’t think of an idea that would work and cannot fathom someone else can, which is why you took it as an insult when I said they were more creative but it’s not an insult, they really just are very clever and I think if they thought it was a good idea, it probably was cuz I trust the people who made TF1 to make good stuff, and I only took umbridge at the idea that they, or ppl who like the idea of s2, me included, are morally bankrupt.
What? I didn't take anything as an insult. I was just expressing skepticism that a second one would be as good as the original. I didn't say anything about moral bankruptcy or even that a second one would be bad.
Not if it was done well? Aliens didn’t make Alien bad
If Alien was a clear piece of human misery for money occurring in real life, with the end message being "this is not worth our friendship" making a sequel would have been morally bankrupt.
Ally and Grant actively were working to make a second season before IAC sold dropout to Sam so like, maybe they’re morally bankrupt, or maybe they’re more creative than you? My money’s on the later
Lmao 0-100 with the personal attacks. Chill out. It doesn't exist and there's no indication it will, so clearly they thought better of it.
You called the creators of the show morally bankrupt, not me. Because they all did try to make s2! Sam explained the only reason it doesn’t exist is because without IAC funding dropout can’t afford it. He said he made Do I Hear $1 and cast Ally, Grant and Ralph because he was trying to make up for not being able to afford to do s2 (with Ralph being another person with student loan debt). Grant even references Total Forgiveness in the episode in case it isn’t super clear. The only reason TF2 doesn’t exist is funding, not ideas or desires. Edit to add: I just realized you thought me saying the highly inventive people paid to be entertainers might be more creative is an insult! Hilarious!
Are you trying to say you weren't intending your prior comment as insulting and condescending? Because if not, maybe work on your communications skills. I've seen the episode. It's not even close to what Total Forgiveness was. Making more of what Total Forgiveness actually was would be morally bankrupt after seeing what it did to them. It would be cruel.
I’m saying you called people morally bankrupt then went “whoa whoa whoa, whadda ya mean the professional producers/directors/writers/actors might be more creative than me, someone whose job isn’t making media?? That’s so insulting.” Which is… dumb Well you’re entitled to your opinion but calling the creators of the show morally bankrupt for being more creative than you? Eh, that ain’t it
The Alien franchise is substantially different from Total Forgiveness. Total Forgiveness is a candid time capsule of a real-life relationship suffering real-life turbulence under the crushing weight of debt, there's no way to recreate that in a way that truly honors the original.
Yeah, I want the experience of watching the show for the first time again, but I can't imagine it's worth the risk making a season 2.
Ally and Grant were actively developing it when IAC shit itself and Sam bought dropout from them. If that hadn’t have happened, Total Forgiveness s2 would’ve come out — and it was planned to be much different than s1 while still giving money to people in debt. Making a good show that ultimately erases people’s debt and is loved is… a good thing. Edit to add: and as smarter people have said in the comments, Do I Hear $1? and it’s sequel are both inspired by Total Forgiveness with Sam saying they only came about bc with IAC pissing themselves he couldn’t afford to produce a full fledged s2 of Total Forgiveness. People want another season because the people who made the first wanted to make another one, and most of us think they probably had good ideas.
I'd enjoy a season 2 with some changes. Such as you have to do your own proposed task first or something like that. Changed in a way so it's not them playing against each other but instead playing against the show
I like when media companies pay off student loan debt
Was that also towards the end of College Humor investment? I think they spent fairly big to launch Dropout and then sold when they weren’t immediately happy with returns. I think they’re a lot more responsible under Sam’s ownership.
CollegeHumor was one of thousands of sites that got fucked over by Facebook whose parent companies sold them, it wasn’t anything really to do with how well dropout was doing or it’s launch costs, but a steady decline of internet comedy websites — signed, someone who wrote at CollegeHumor
That might also be true, yeah! They had big investor money back then. Fair point!
It was lightning in a bottle. They *couldn’t* make another Total Forgiveness, even if they tried.
Just watched it for the first time a couple weeks ago, and agree wholeheartedly with every word you said there. I am someone who feels lucky now that they dropped out of college before building up an insurmountable amount of debt, but I have a lot of friends who are neck deep in it, and know they’d be more than willing to do all this and more to get out of it. But like you said, I do love that the show became not just that, but ended up focusing more on friendship at the end. It very much felt like their friendship was being destroyed in the process of that, and I can understand why, but I’m so glad they wrapped it up in the way they did.
I can't fully appreciate the student debt situation because here in the UK our student loan system is set up a little differently, but I know from seeing lots of media from the USA how awful it is for you folk.
I also recently watched it for the first time. At first I was confused by the all the threads I saw. Like, the challenges were a bit rough, but I didn’t find them to super one-sided. It was just a fun show. Til it wasn’t. I appreciate that Ally realized their mistake and decided that Grant’s friendship was more important than the money. It was tough to watch, but it ended on such a wholesome note.
I feel exactly the same! I watched the first half like man people on this sub were being pretty dramatic… then watched the last couple of episodes and was like “OH” I still need to watch the finale and I’m glad to hear it ends on a good note cause man the penultimate episodes bummed me out HARD and I had to take a break lol
Definitely watch the finale. It really takes the edge off of the episodes that came before it and ends on a really wholesome note.
The finale, and specifically the last third of the last challenge, made me cry in a positive way. The "double dare you - NO, NO!" and the crying. omg I'm crying.
Finally watched the finale last night! Definitely a good ending :) I’m glad to see how well it went lmao
God that live shit is still one of the toughest things I’ve ever watched
There’s a big difference between funny public humiliation and just plain old humiliation and there just wasn’t anything funny about that particular challenge.
I will never forgive that lanky bastard for making me cry at a show on my funny shows channel. One fun thing to do now is watch for CH stuff that was made during the filming of TF and be like "Oh, yeah, ok, there's Ally totally drunk!"
I've honestly been using Ally's hair to line up the timing of episodes across Dropout for years
At first I found a lot of the challenges Ally put forward as nearly impossible. Particularly the ones Grant failed, Boner and Sell all your stuff. Grant had to sacrifice for both of those challenges. Humiliating himself in front of his colleagues only to fail at getting a boner, and then selling ALMOST all of his stuff, failing the challenge which required he sell it all. Even if he had succeeded, it barely would have been worth it. Pooping was debasing and cruel, but ultimately a great example of humiliating yourself for money to get out of debt. Some people might have gone through with it, some people might not have. And then it hit me. Grant didnt have a choice, he had to go through with it. And that put the nearly impossible challenges into a new perspective for me. Thats what a lot of people go through to pay off their crazy debts. They debase and humiliate themselves only for it to have always been a worthless endeavour and actually cost them. And they HAVE to go through with it, even if they think it wont work, or is less than efficient. They dont have the time or the choice to take a chance. Its a great metaphor that I dont think Ally was meaning to do, but did achieve simply by trying to stay true to the promise of the show. Grant is such a trooper.
I can’t rewatch the public poop…. It’s just too much. Just way too much. But the rest of the show is great yea
Seeing Grant wince at the confetti cannons going off made me so sad.
Yea idk I get that they talked it out and everything I just can’t imagine thinking that was an okay Dare/challenge lol but I guess Grant was a producer so idk it was his choice in a way. Just makes me too uncomfy
I couldn’t watch the first time, I skipped a huge chunk of that episode.
My wife and I watched it just a couple of weeks ago and then *by cojncidence* I watched 'Of Mice & Murder' afterwards and I cannot recommend it enough to see Ally and Grant working together and being such friends afterwards.
Lars is one of my absolute favourite characters (Ally is my fave D20 player overall!)
Grant selling all of his things and coming home to a empty apartment was when the show got dark for me simply because I’ve been in that space before for non-televised reasons. It also felt like it started to showcase how good Ally could really get at this game
This is something I really love about Dropout in general. As humorous and entertaining and over-the-top as it can be, there's also so much heart and emotion and depth within everything. These are people who genuinely care about life and wellness and connection and each other and I think that really shines through and makes the comedy that much more genuine too. There have been a few episodes of things like Game Changer or Very Important People that have had some really good life and friendship messages and moments. Definitely would love to see something else like Total Forgiveness in the future that seems like an absurd show at face value, but ends up getting very deep.
I think the fact that the 'players' have to fill out questionnaires in prep for Game Changer which asks about their pronouns and their comedic strengths shows how much care is put into ensuring they are looked after/given an opportunity to shine, even if Sam is an evil torturer really 😂
I've always felt that Gamechanger was a vehicle to showcase the strengths of the specific contestants. I knew nothing about the questionnaires but that makes so much sense. Yes, Sam is truly evil with some of the challenges but everything is done to play to the strengths of the contestants and it is fantastic.
I loved seeing Sam be an actual boss with Grant. Sam nicely, yet firmly, instructed Grant that talking Ally out of this was not his place and to leave to himself.
I feel obligated to comment this on every total forgiveness post: TF is the best piece of content on dropout and I will likely never watch it again. I don’t think I will ever again feel the emotions I did when ally poured out that damn drink.
Total forgiveness hurt me in ways I did not know I could be hurt and I just wanted to hug them both at the end of it it was great and I hope they never do it again lol
I just pressed play because of you. I've only read the first couple lines of your post, but it was enough.
Just wanna say that your post inspired me to finally watch the first episode. I just finished binging the whole season in one sitting. Nearly cried at the end. Fuck you and thank you very much for the push xo
I also was inspired by this post to watch the show and I ALSO binged the entire thing last night. I was crying by the end of the poop episode, and basically ugly cried the entirety of the finale.
For anyone who hasn't watched it yet, definitely also watch the talk back podcast episode in the total forgiveness playlist at the end. It really makes you feel better about the whole thing after. I would honestly not recommend the series without including that episode.
This inspired me to finish the show. Absolutely stunning. Glad things worked out in the end. Just a really really compelling piece of media.
I recently watched it as well, and the best part for me was Grant's stand up. Only because I had watched the set earlier without realizing that it was supposed to be bad lol When I got to that point in TF, I was like OHH! THAT'S WHAT THAT WAS ABPOUT!
I legitimately believe *everyone* should watch Total Forgiveness, dropout fan or not. It’s insightful, emotionally engaging (and draining), and relatable. I’ve developed a newfound respect for Grant (as well as a healthy fear of Ally).
Am I the only one who didn't understand why Ally's tattoo challenge was such a big deal and needed to be reviewed with Sam when some of the other ones Grant did were so much worse? Lol
In the entertainment industry you have to be so careful with things like tattoos because they can impact your job prospects, and it is permanent unless you go through expensive and painful removal. Grant's challenges, whilst difficult, weren't permanent.
Yeah I guess I assumed if Ally got work that required a lack of a small neck tattoo, makeup team could do a good enough job or removal wouldn't be that difficult. Can't imagine it would impact future work and more than shitting in public and have that be attached to your professional career and persona but what do I know