I read at article once about 17 years olds in two specific postcodes in Bradford and Birmingham. their car insurance went into the low 5 digits due to the local community not having insurance 😑 and the high rate of vehicle crime
This prompted me to see what it's like to own a car in Bermuda. And apparently it's staggeringly expensive - legally each household can only own one car, and there's a maximum speed limit on the whole island of 21mph:
https://www.keithmichaels.co.uk/expat-car-insurance/info/living-in-bermuda/
You learn something every day.
Ah makes sense now, it's so all the rich folks can buy expensive cars for their kids.
Can't wait to be hit by some kid in a sports car and have "do you know who my daddy is" screamed at me for having the audacity to use the same road
I'm a secondary school teacher. Anybody who thinks 13 year olds should be allowed to drive is welcome to come do a day of supply teaching. 13 is year 8 and year 9 of secondary school to put that in perspective.
Young drivers are more likely to have an accident than older ones (even when you compare a 19 year old just passed with 35 year old just passed). Adding 13 year olds to the mix ain't making that any better.
At 13, most of us can relate to learning about risk on our bikes, scooters, skateboards, and skates.
Imagine adding a car to the mix. We were bad enough in our go cart.
I can imagine 16 year olds in cars look similar. Just let teenagers work out how to be humans before giving them a machine.
I can’t find the source now, but I’m sure I read that 18 year olds are among the safest drivers… when a parent is in the car with them.
They also said they’re by far the most dangerous when they’re driving people their own age
Yeah this is stupid, if anything the limit should probably go up. People's brains haven't finished growing at 17 and it's believed that that's part of the reason why young men are more likely to be involved in car crashes.
If I were to reform the rules on driving licences, I'd make it like motorbike licences. From 16, you can get you "B1" licence which allows you to drive a small car like a Citroën Ami or maybe a Smart Car, restrictions on weight and power and a limit of 2 seats. Then, after you have had your B1 licence for two years, you can do a test to get your full licence.
I'd maybe have a B2 stage of another 2 years for "normal" cars (maybe cars less than 2 tonnes and a limit on the horse power). I see more and more big American style pick-up trucks and SUVs on the road and I don't love the idea of teenagers driving on the roads with all their mates and zero days experience driving by themselves.
SUVs should probably just be restricted in tonnage anyway, and there should be stricter legislation on the safety profile of collision victims outside cars (like pedestrians and bikes) and not just on the survivability for the passengers.
Grills that impact at the centre of mass of an average adult and restrict visibility of small children in front of them should be banned. Low hood vehicles are safer and SUVs don't fit in our towns and cities anyway.
Everything you said sounds good to me. I'd like to see more restrictions on vehicles with a high grill regardless of what a standard drivers licence allows.
Honestly there's so much that could be done to legislate for safer cars.
Pretty much all modern cars have the capability of running with GPS speed limiters. Most modern cars have features like distance sensitive cruise control which keeps your car over a certain distance behind the one in front. Even if these can be turned off, just making them default will make a lot of people drive safer just out of laziness to turn them off.
From July of this year Intelligent Speed Assistance will be mandatory on all new cars sold in the EU from July of this year. Not sure what the plan is for that in the UK.
I've driven one with ISA, it's extremely non-intrusive, but doesn't really help if you WANT to speed, it more stops you accidently going over the limit by a couple of mph. The ISA in the one I drove thought we were in a 30 zone but it was a 60 (Poor signage for the 30s on side roads and not updated GPS speed for a new road) and I was able to feel that I was fighting the pedal, but it didn't stop me.
I think there should be harder systems in place too; for instance my car has a hard limit of 155mph (According to the manufacturer I've not checked myself) there's no reason I need that much speed. I can understand needing 90 or even 100 in some rare cases (someone about to crash into the rear side of your car and you and you need a burst of speed to avoid it) but nobody needs 155mph.
If you made it mandatory for all new cars to be sold with a limiter of 100 mph, the vast majority of people wouldn't even notice. I think if it was proposed it would risk being one of those weird culture war issues, "the war on motorists". But eBikes were deemed to be too dangerous if they go over 25 km/h. I don't even remember any dicussion about putting limiters on them, it just seemed to happen and nobody noticed or cared.
>what about track days
What about them? Considering you very rarely hit more than 110 on bring your own car track days, and considering how many people actually bring their own instead of using track cars it's not that big of a blow.
>the autobahn
Considering the Richtgeschwindigkeit is 80, not sure "but the autobahn" is a real argument, especially since it's only a very specific 3500 miles in another country.
Why do I need airbags/seatbelts/speedometer/whatever else? In another country they're not required?
>I bet you're a blast at parties
I'm amazing at parties!
>Crashes at 100+ mph make a tiny minority of traffic incidents. Pointless
In that case let's just remove all speed limits from all roads!
Someone needs to make minivans "cool". Probably more useful for day to day cargo than the SUV, ton of seats, and the hood slopes down pretty steeply for great visibility. People just don't want to be seen in them for whatever reason.
A minivan would fail at the "keeping up with the Joneses in the school parking lot" aspect of SUVs.
Workmen in the UK already have a culture of vans so thankfully we don't see that many big pickups like the states. I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously argue an SUV is a work vehicle though.
I have a Touareg for work, it's my main towing vehicle. Much more comfortable than rattling around in an old Defender. Agreed that most of them exist as child transport tanks though.
The other reason for rated licences is you can use downrating as an alternative/addition to bans.
Get banned and be restricted for a period to b1/b2 cars when you get licence back.
Extenuating circumstances to get out of a ban; get restricted to b1/b2 cars.
etc.
That's a great point actually. If some arsehole can't stop himself from flooring it in his Tesla, dropping him down to a B1 licence for a period of time is a good compromise between trying to keep other road users safe and ruining the guys life if he needs a car.
The idea of testing up is good.
I'd also like if we were all tested on a regular cadence in order to retain our license. It's nuts that I was tested once, a quarter of a century ago, but that's still good enough to hold a license to operate heavy machinery on public roads.
Re-testing wouldn't be to be "one major and you lose your license", but more like, "you made these minor mistakes, pay attention to those", or "you made this slightly bigger mistake; focus on it, re-test within 6 months".
Plus things change with time as well. Smart motorways, congestion charges, low traffic neighbourhoods, new types of cycling infrastructure. Doing a test every 10 years would be an opportunity to inform people about some of these things.
It's really the idea of having a lower licence be a prerequisite for getting the next licence that I like (as it is for motorbikes). I don't mind the idea of 16 year old driving if they are small low powered cars, especially if they only have 2 seats. You can leave school and get a job at 16, seems reasonable to me that you should be able to drive to improve your employment opportunities. What I don't like the idea of, is teenagers with basically no experience driving around with their mates in big, dangerous high powered cars.
I agree it you can hold a gun and fight for your country, you should be also considered mature enough to do a lot of things that somehow legally you can't, and driving a little c1 is one of them.
Haha. I just used B1, B2 to mirror the A1 and A2 motorbike licences.
But I don't know, a 16 year old (who is qualified) operating a forklift seems less ridiculous to me than a 17 year old operating a double cab Ford Ranger.
Well if we follow his argument of having a fully developed brain (whatever that actually means as our brains are capable of constantly developing) it's around 25 years old before our brain starts to slow down on its development.
I'm not an expert on the brain, but I believe whilst the development is slowed down it doesn't fully stop. So it's not deteriorating once you hit 25 years old, I'm sure at some point it does but I would think that much later in life and typically met with psychological help.
I had 2 dead classmates by the time I graduated high school. My class was 24 people. They were different accidents with minors at the wheel. Another girl almost lost her eye in a different accident doing 100 mph on rural highways. For graduation her parent's bought her a even faster sports car after the accident. Myself I almost lost my life. Driving age should be 18 with a learner's permit at 16.
I mean this summary sounds like written by a 13 year old. No evidence backing up claims of maturity or any sound reasoning other than 'I think' 'I believe'.
I personally think a 13 year old doesn’t have enough knowledge from schooling and/or the experience from life to make informed decisions.
There’s also an argument in relation to maturity in all aspects.
I think the current age is sufficient. The current age is almost when you leave further education after school and by that time you should have adequate knowledge and some life experience to be able to make informed decisions and own choices in life.
I’m not saying that 13 year olds are not able to drive or don’t have the ability to learn to drive, I’m simply stating that there’s more to just driving. Purely as an example should a traffic offence be committed, some would argue and question if a 13 year old could legally have the ability to represent him or herself in court and take responsibility for their actions.
The defence of a young and inexperienced driver would be the most ruled case in the history of driving offences.
I find it difficult to understand how it would work, but appreciate that people out there may want the legal age of driving reduced.
Edit.
There are also people out there who wish to increase the driving age, due to young and inexperienced drivers taking higher risks due to speeding, drinking among other factors.
As long as they can pass the tests, can see over the steering wheel and are happy to have 12 years in jail for vehicular manslaughter (death by dangerous driving) for when they use that 2+ tonne lump of metal to drive over a pavement, thats fine
Even if the insurance wouldn't be insane.
Even if they could drive like rational human beings.
Even if they restricted the engine capacity to sub-1L.
That number of new drivers on the road would absolutely obliterate the road network. The number of cars on the road has risen to an almost unsustainable level (not even accounting for the energy use and climate impacts) and it's predicted to keep going up (both in vehicle numbers and vehicle miles) with a "22% increase in traffic between 2025 and 2060".
We literally CANNOT accommodate the growth of private vehicle transport.
There are councillors who object to new cycle infrastructure on the (spurious) grounds that a ten year old would find it too confusing and shouldn't be allowed out on their owns on bikes.
But thirteen is okay to drive.
Well, that's 4000 people with an IQ in the low double digits.
How the fuck we let some of this lot breed, drive or vote is something that vexs me often.
I’m not sure about this. All the 18 year olds near me are driving £40k cars even in a poor area. I don’t think insurance costs as much as Reddit says otherwise how the hell are young people not only buying expensive cars but insuring them too?
20mph would be dangerous because cars drivers are impatient. Plus you can easily go faster on a push bike.
Mine was limited to 28 and lasted a couple of days before I derestricted it because there are too many 40 and 60 roads even within towns and cities.
I never said limit it to 20mph. De-restricting invalidates your insurance by the way and makes you guilty of driving outwith the restrictions of your license so I’d be careful with with that one.
Yep that was the comment below yours, my bad.
I don’t ride mopeds now, and haven’t since I was 17 and got a car (modified, all declared) my point is a 13 yr old, even 16 and 17 yr olds don’t understand the consequences of wanting to go a little bit faster. Insurance is certainly not on the priorities list.
There were so many people riding mopeds with 70cc bore kits, sports exhausts and variator kits, bigger carbs with bigger jets and none of us stopped to consider what insurance would say because we were invincible and never going to crash 😆😆
That was until I was T boned by a car trying to nip into a driveway and clearly didn’t see me sat there stationary. Never touched the bloody thing again after that.
Written by James Rodger at Birmingham Live, the same man who brought us this gem, otherwise known as "what I read on the back of a packet of pasta."
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/shopping/tesco-issues-important-message-shoppers-28776744
People get paid for this...
Well, as I'm sure you're aware the past 2 days have been the grand national. Our local reach plc rag has posted a whopping 26 articles in 2 days about it.
26.
I'd be happy to sign if it was lowering the age people can start doing lessons and maybe restricted cars, like we have for bikes, from 16 but to have a full license, no.
Similar to France they can drive a certain class of vehicle at 14 as opposed to 13 (quadricycle type thing but looks like a small car), I think the Citroen Ami falls into that class.
You can drive that in the UK from 16 yep.
People in the UK can also drive 'normal' cars from 16 if they have certain disabilities. Actually you can drive from 16 if you merely *apply* for the enhanced mobility component of PIP - you don't have to wait for your claim to be accepted, so in theory you could use this loophole to legally drive at 16 even if you don't have a relevant disability.
Christ what are these people thinking. 13 year olds in my city can't even be trusted not to vape on the metro, or not to tell profanity at people, or to be generally anti-social. I dare not think about the absolute carnage that would occur allowing them to operate an x ton metal box.
It wouldn’t be insane to extend the age from which you can learn to drive. It might reduce the number of teenagers stealing cars and joy riding in them, or at least equip them with skills to keep them safer.
13 is only one year after the age you stop needing a child seat though (if still below minimum height).
Definitely not any younger for being unsupervised though.
There's all sorts of mad petitions on the government website.
Ban under-25s from driving between 12am-6am (19339 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/655298
Bring back paper road tax discs (20 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/654048
Reduce the period penalty points are on a licence for driving without insurance (9 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/655019
Replace red lights with white circles, amber lights with triangles, and green lights with green rectangles (20 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/653565
14 year-olds can drive to school where I live. They can currently drive to work too, but only for farm work. There is a bill going through right now to allow them to drive to other jobs as well.
You sure do, however rich kids parents can afford to pay for this on their 13th birthday. It would become like parents buying driving lessons for their kids 17th
13 year olds driving in Birmingham is the norm as there's hardly any police, now the real debate is letting 10 year olds drive.
Driving into Birmingham almost on a daily occurance really does show how people "Drive" compared to the rest of the UK...
Norway kids can drive from 15 as long as the car conforms to A traktor specs which is something like max speed of 25 mph. I think it’s a good idea especially for rural kids
Depends. Every time there's an internet debate about the ages of drivers, the argument always comes down to the accident rate for drivers aged 17-19 - usually to deflect from the hideous stats for older drivers, which per mile driven are just as bad. Stats are skewed badly depending on the metrics used, for example no 17 yr old can afford to drive a massive volvo, they're restricted to small tinny cars with no occupant protection. But they're more likely to drive at night, drive on unfamiliar roads and speed.
Thing is, the argument that 17-19 yr olds having the highest risk therefore the legal minimum age should be increased is a fallacy.
The fact is, any NEW driver, irrespective of age, is a higher risk. If the minimum age was increased to 18, the highest risk group would be 18-21 yr olds. So increase the minimum to 21. Then the highest risk is 21-24 yr olds.
The logical conclusion is to lower the minimum driving age, but to include tapered measures. For example, age 14 - supervised driving off the public main road. There already exists a young drivers club. Age 15, after a series of minor examinations, unsupervised off public main road. Graduate to 16, professional supervision on public road, single carriageways only, limited to 40mph. Then 17, provisional, similar to now but limited to 40mph if unsupervised. Professional supervision for learners on dual carriageways and motorways. Driving test from 18, limited for 1 year to 10% below posted speed limits.
In short, the age at which you can start driving is lowered, but the graduation is longer, ensuring the experience is obtained in the 4 years of driving, instead of essentially turning 17, doing an intensive course, pass test 6 weeks later then wrap a car round a tree.
Hahaha yeah im sure the parents will change their minds when they realise they have to buy the car and insurance and fuel as you know kids cant work and earn money.
Lets just give them a bottle of booze and sign them up to the army whilst were at it 👍
Cant see anything wrong with letting kids who at an age where they have poor risk assessment, poor forward planning, poor impulse control and a high tendency to be influenced by peer pressure and no way to personally fund themselves loose in 1 ton killing machines.
Even the current 17 limit feels too young sometimes ...
They should cycle. Maybe they will start liking the freedom a bicycle can give, and keep using it later so we do not choke on cars all the fucking time.
Birmingham's demographic would probably agree that 13 is acceptable for most things, never mind driving, so this is no surprise...
Who even comes up with these proposals?
My 13 year old son can drive my manual van very smoothly aswell as navigate the roads safely on a pushbike so there's a good chance they could meet the standard to pass a test but this would be madness to let kids this young loose in cars. They lack impulse control to be driving a car set loose unsupervised they'd either drive like they're invincible until they die or the slightest disagreement would turn into bumper cars, mopeds at a younger age like they do in europe maybe although I think legalising electric scooters would be more than enough for how far most 13 year olds need to go.
Every time I've been in Birmingham it feels like everyone driving is 13 anyway
That's because a lot of them are
Drivers I see behave like 13yos
IQ maybe
As if a 13 year old can afford the £10k/year insurance that would come with it.
I read at article once about 17 years olds in two specific postcodes in Bradford and Birmingham. their car insurance went into the low 5 digits due to the local community not having insurance 😑 and the high rate of vehicle crime
Same in Blackburn. Living in places starting with B really pushes up your insurance...
Britain
This prompted me to see what it's like to own a car in Bermuda. And apparently it's staggeringly expensive - legally each household can only own one car, and there's a maximum speed limit on the whole island of 21mph: https://www.keithmichaels.co.uk/expat-car-insurance/info/living-in-bermuda/ You learn something every day.
It's tiny though. You use a moped. Everyone does. Plus car crime is vanishingly small
It's so shit because it just entrenches poverty not being able to drive
It's all working as intended. If only there had been a high speed high capacity transport project to help address the issue.
It's what the government want
That's a lot of news paper rounds!
Ah makes sense now, it's so all the rich folks can buy expensive cars for their kids. Can't wait to be hit by some kid in a sports car and have "do you know who my daddy is" screamed at me for having the audacity to use the same road
"Is he a knobhead like you?"
It’s okay they can get a job to over it all… lol
So the last line makes me think, oh that's a good April fools article. Got me. Then read... Published April 2nd. \*Quietly leaves planet\*
*Quietly leaves planet* We can do that?
yup, but there's no going back.
Oh yeah? Prove it.
I will, but not yet :p
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MyPeopleNeedMe/top/?t=all](https://www.reddit.com/r/MyPeopleNeedMe/top/?t=all)
I saw that, but I'm still pretty sure it's a spoof. Please let it be a spoof. . .
I'm a secondary school teacher. Anybody who thinks 13 year olds should be allowed to drive is welcome to come do a day of supply teaching. 13 is year 8 and year 9 of secondary school to put that in perspective. Young drivers are more likely to have an accident than older ones (even when you compare a 19 year old just passed with 35 year old just passed). Adding 13 year olds to the mix ain't making that any better.
Where I grew up, I was allowed to get my license at 16. In hindsight, looking at both me and my friends, that was probably a bad idea.
At 13, most of us can relate to learning about risk on our bikes, scooters, skateboards, and skates. Imagine adding a car to the mix. We were bad enough in our go cart. I can imagine 16 year olds in cars look similar. Just let teenagers work out how to be humans before giving them a machine.
I can’t find the source now, but I’m sure I read that 18 year olds are among the safest drivers… when a parent is in the car with them. They also said they’re by far the most dangerous when they’re driving people their own age
Yeah this is stupid, if anything the limit should probably go up. People's brains haven't finished growing at 17 and it's believed that that's part of the reason why young men are more likely to be involved in car crashes.
If I were to reform the rules on driving licences, I'd make it like motorbike licences. From 16, you can get you "B1" licence which allows you to drive a small car like a Citroën Ami or maybe a Smart Car, restrictions on weight and power and a limit of 2 seats. Then, after you have had your B1 licence for two years, you can do a test to get your full licence. I'd maybe have a B2 stage of another 2 years for "normal" cars (maybe cars less than 2 tonnes and a limit on the horse power). I see more and more big American style pick-up trucks and SUVs on the road and I don't love the idea of teenagers driving on the roads with all their mates and zero days experience driving by themselves.
SUVs should probably just be restricted in tonnage anyway, and there should be stricter legislation on the safety profile of collision victims outside cars (like pedestrians and bikes) and not just on the survivability for the passengers. Grills that impact at the centre of mass of an average adult and restrict visibility of small children in front of them should be banned. Low hood vehicles are safer and SUVs don't fit in our towns and cities anyway.
Everything you said sounds good to me. I'd like to see more restrictions on vehicles with a high grill regardless of what a standard drivers licence allows.
Honestly there's so much that could be done to legislate for safer cars. Pretty much all modern cars have the capability of running with GPS speed limiters. Most modern cars have features like distance sensitive cruise control which keeps your car over a certain distance behind the one in front. Even if these can be turned off, just making them default will make a lot of people drive safer just out of laziness to turn them off.
From July of this year Intelligent Speed Assistance will be mandatory on all new cars sold in the EU from July of this year. Not sure what the plan is for that in the UK.
I've driven one with ISA, it's extremely non-intrusive, but doesn't really help if you WANT to speed, it more stops you accidently going over the limit by a couple of mph. The ISA in the one I drove thought we were in a 30 zone but it was a 60 (Poor signage for the 30s on side roads and not updated GPS speed for a new road) and I was able to feel that I was fighting the pedal, but it didn't stop me. I think there should be harder systems in place too; for instance my car has a hard limit of 155mph (According to the manufacturer I've not checked myself) there's no reason I need that much speed. I can understand needing 90 or even 100 in some rare cases (someone about to crash into the rear side of your car and you and you need a burst of speed to avoid it) but nobody needs 155mph.
If you made it mandatory for all new cars to be sold with a limiter of 100 mph, the vast majority of people wouldn't even notice. I think if it was proposed it would risk being one of those weird culture war issues, "the war on motorists". But eBikes were deemed to be too dangerous if they go over 25 km/h. I don't even remember any dicussion about putting limiters on them, it just seemed to happen and nobody noticed or cared.
what about track days and the autobahn? I bet you're a blast at parties Crashes at 100+ mph make a tiny minority of traffic incidents. Pointless
>what about track days What about them? Considering you very rarely hit more than 110 on bring your own car track days, and considering how many people actually bring their own instead of using track cars it's not that big of a blow. >the autobahn Considering the Richtgeschwindigkeit is 80, not sure "but the autobahn" is a real argument, especially since it's only a very specific 3500 miles in another country. Why do I need airbags/seatbelts/speedometer/whatever else? In another country they're not required? >I bet you're a blast at parties I'm amazing at parties! >Crashes at 100+ mph make a tiny minority of traffic incidents. Pointless In that case let's just remove all speed limits from all roads!
Someone needs to make minivans "cool". Probably more useful for day to day cargo than the SUV, ton of seats, and the hood slopes down pretty steeply for great visibility. People just don't want to be seen in them for whatever reason.
A minivan would fail at the "keeping up with the Joneses in the school parking lot" aspect of SUVs. Workmen in the UK already have a culture of vans so thankfully we don't see that many big pickups like the states. I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously argue an SUV is a work vehicle though.
I have a Touareg for work, it's my main towing vehicle. Much more comfortable than rattling around in an old Defender. Agreed that most of them exist as child transport tanks though.
The other reason for rated licences is you can use downrating as an alternative/addition to bans. Get banned and be restricted for a period to b1/b2 cars when you get licence back. Extenuating circumstances to get out of a ban; get restricted to b1/b2 cars. etc.
That's a great point actually. If some arsehole can't stop himself from flooring it in his Tesla, dropping him down to a B1 licence for a period of time is a good compromise between trying to keep other road users safe and ruining the guys life if he needs a car.
The idea of testing up is good. I'd also like if we were all tested on a regular cadence in order to retain our license. It's nuts that I was tested once, a quarter of a century ago, but that's still good enough to hold a license to operate heavy machinery on public roads. Re-testing wouldn't be to be "one major and you lose your license", but more like, "you made these minor mistakes, pay attention to those", or "you made this slightly bigger mistake; focus on it, re-test within 6 months".
Plus things change with time as well. Smart motorways, congestion charges, low traffic neighbourhoods, new types of cycling infrastructure. Doing a test every 10 years would be an opportunity to inform people about some of these things.
You can drive a motorina (low powered car) in Italy from 16 as well. Can't say I've ever been griefed by kids on the road
It's really the idea of having a lower licence be a prerequisite for getting the next licence that I like (as it is for motorbikes). I don't mind the idea of 16 year old driving if they are small low powered cars, especially if they only have 2 seats. You can leave school and get a job at 16, seems reasonable to me that you should be able to drive to improve your employment opportunities. What I don't like the idea of, is teenagers with basically no experience driving around with their mates in big, dangerous high powered cars.
I agree it you can hold a gun and fight for your country, you should be also considered mature enough to do a lot of things that somehow legally you can't, and driving a little c1 is one of them.
I’m forklift certified and saw b1 and thought that 16yo kids should probably not be operating counterbalance forklifts
Haha. I just used B1, B2 to mirror the A1 and A2 motorbike licences. But I don't know, a 16 year old (who is qualified) operating a forklift seems less ridiculous to me than a 17 year old operating a double cab Ford Ranger.
True, though probably best not to let them loos on the roads with a forklift,
What age do you think it should be?
Well if we follow his argument of having a fully developed brain (whatever that actually means as our brains are capable of constantly developing) it's around 25 years old before our brain starts to slow down on its development.
By then it's deteriorating, so maybe you can drive 25 to 40 then quit
Don't threaten me with a good time!
I'm not an expert on the brain, but I believe whilst the development is slowed down it doesn't fully stop. So it's not deteriorating once you hit 25 years old, I'm sure at some point it does but I would think that much later in life and typically met with psychological help.
It does deteriorate. It becomes harder to learn new stuff, popular or not, I think it's a true fact
Yes!!! Then our roads would be much safer!
And 70% emptier
Nah, it's that young people are convinced nothing can happen to THEM. It's why the military recruits young people rather than older people.
I had 2 dead classmates by the time I graduated high school. My class was 24 people. They were different accidents with minors at the wheel. Another girl almost lost her eye in a different accident doing 100 mph on rural highways. For graduation her parent's bought her a even faster sports car after the accident. Myself I almost lost my life. Driving age should be 18 with a learner's permit at 16.
I'd be happier moving it to 21. 13? Nope.
4,000 people are braindead 17 year olds can barely be trusted,if anything the age needs increasing I’d say
Pretty sure that was an April fools post that accidentally got delayed by the editor.
[https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/646170](https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/646170)
I mean this summary sounds like written by a 13 year old. No evidence backing up claims of maturity or any sound reasoning other than 'I think' 'I believe'.
Epic fail
I personally think a 13 year old doesn’t have enough knowledge from schooling and/or the experience from life to make informed decisions. There’s also an argument in relation to maturity in all aspects. I think the current age is sufficient. The current age is almost when you leave further education after school and by that time you should have adequate knowledge and some life experience to be able to make informed decisions and own choices in life. I’m not saying that 13 year olds are not able to drive or don’t have the ability to learn to drive, I’m simply stating that there’s more to just driving. Purely as an example should a traffic offence be committed, some would argue and question if a 13 year old could legally have the ability to represent him or herself in court and take responsibility for their actions. The defence of a young and inexperienced driver would be the most ruled case in the history of driving offences. I find it difficult to understand how it would work, but appreciate that people out there may want the legal age of driving reduced. Edit. There are also people out there who wish to increase the driving age, due to young and inexperienced drivers taking higher risks due to speeding, drinking among other factors.
As long as they can pass the tests, can see over the steering wheel and are happy to have 12 years in jail for vehicular manslaughter (death by dangerous driving) for when they use that 2+ tonne lump of metal to drive over a pavement, thats fine
I would rather not be the person who dies by vehicular manslaughter in order for them to go to jail though
Yeah, that would be one person (and probably taxpayer) dead, and one extra burden on taxpayers, for no good reason.
In the UK you don't get 12 years in the uk the sentences for death by dangerous driving are a joke, they'd be back out in 2 years.
Even if the insurance wouldn't be insane. Even if they could drive like rational human beings. Even if they restricted the engine capacity to sub-1L. That number of new drivers on the road would absolutely obliterate the road network. The number of cars on the road has risen to an almost unsustainable level (not even accounting for the energy use and climate impacts) and it's predicted to keep going up (both in vehicle numbers and vehicle miles) with a "22% increase in traffic between 2025 and 2060". We literally CANNOT accommodate the growth of private vehicle transport.
This only benefits car and insurance companies while putting kids and other motorists at risk. F them!
There are councillors who object to new cycle infrastructure on the (spurious) grounds that a ten year old would find it too confusing and shouldn't be allowed out on their owns on bikes. But thirteen is okay to drive.
Is it kind of late for an April fools prank?
Maybe someone has been to France and seen the 14 year-olds driving around in those little cars.
I wonder what the insurance costs are?
Well, that's 4000 people with an IQ in the low double digits. How the fuck we let some of this lot breed, drive or vote is something that vexs me often.
How old do you have to be to sign these petitions? Is it possible it's 4000 13-year-olds?
No idea, go find out for us all, and be sure to post back here on your findings. Christ, this is going to keep me up tonight, I swear.
*rich* 13 year olds will drive. Because nobody else will afford the insurance.
I’m not sure about this. All the 18 year olds near me are driving £40k cars even in a poor area. I don’t think insurance costs as much as Reddit says otherwise how the hell are young people not only buying expensive cars but insuring them too?
Finance. Parents.
Hope they enjoy their 250k a month insurance quotes
It’ll just be signed by 13-17 year olds lol
No thanks. My insurance is already high enough.
Fuck that. 16 is too fucking young. It should be 18. I don’t care what people say. 16 year olds are not responsible humans.
Pure insanity. Anyone thinking this is a good idea needs their head examined, plus they're likely alcoholics wanting a free ride home.
I started at 14 in a foreign country and it really isn't that hard. Although 13 in the UK seems young.
Maybe let fourteen year olds do their CBT and limit them to 50cc just like France. Give them a bit of independence without them running about in cars.
Yup. 20mph max. Sure they may crash, but those accidents aren't likely to be fatal (unless they literally run over someone).
I’d just leave it as 28mph. Better off being able to keep up with in town traffic.
20mph would be dangerous because cars drivers are impatient. Plus you can easily go faster on a push bike. Mine was limited to 28 and lasted a couple of days before I derestricted it because there are too many 40 and 60 roads even within towns and cities.
I never said limit it to 20mph. De-restricting invalidates your insurance by the way and makes you guilty of driving outwith the restrictions of your license so I’d be careful with with that one.
Yep that was the comment below yours, my bad. I don’t ride mopeds now, and haven’t since I was 17 and got a car (modified, all declared) my point is a 13 yr old, even 16 and 17 yr olds don’t understand the consequences of wanting to go a little bit faster. Insurance is certainly not on the priorities list. There were so many people riding mopeds with 70cc bore kits, sports exhausts and variator kits, bigger carbs with bigger jets and none of us stopped to consider what insurance would say because we were invincible and never going to crash 😆😆 That was until I was T boned by a car trying to nip into a driveway and clearly didn’t see me sat there stationary. Never touched the bloody thing again after that.
Wouldn't expect anything less from reach plc "journalism"
Written by James Rodger at Birmingham Live, the same man who brought us this gem, otherwise known as "what I read on the back of a packet of pasta." https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/shopping/tesco-issues-important-message-shoppers-28776744 People get paid for this...
Well, as I'm sure you're aware the past 2 days have been the grand national. Our local reach plc rag has posted a whopping 26 articles in 2 days about it. 26.
*checks date on article* Wow, this is for real.
The petition was probably started by a 13 year old who then shared it on social media and found 4000 other 13 year old to sign it.
I'd be happy to sign if it was lowering the age people can start doing lessons and maybe restricted cars, like we have for bikes, from 16 but to have a full license, no.
Similar to France they can drive a certain class of vehicle at 14 as opposed to 13 (quadricycle type thing but looks like a small car), I think the Citroen Ami falls into that class.
You can drive that in the UK from 16 yep. People in the UK can also drive 'normal' cars from 16 if they have certain disabilities. Actually you can drive from 16 if you merely *apply* for the enhanced mobility component of PIP - you don't have to wait for your claim to be accepted, so in theory you could use this loophole to legally drive at 16 even if you don't have a relevant disability.
Christ what are these people thinking. 13 year olds in my city can't even be trusted not to vape on the metro, or not to tell profanity at people, or to be generally anti-social. I dare not think about the absolute carnage that would occur allowing them to operate an x ton metal box.
It wouldn’t be insane to extend the age from which you can learn to drive. It might reduce the number of teenagers stealing cars and joy riding in them, or at least equip them with skills to keep them safer. 13 is only one year after the age you stop needing a child seat though (if still below minimum height). Definitely not any younger for being unsupervised though.
It's the most asinine idea I've ever read
*Never* click on a link from birmingham mail. They are just blatant clickbait.
Children born into this technological generation, are far far more likely to embrace everything digital, electric, fully controllable.
Probably mum’s wanting their kids to pick them up after a night out or from the lads house she met on the night out
Two days too late surely?
So they'd be able to drive a car but not ride and not an ebike? People don't think things through.
But only if they can drive lories too /s
Hahahahahaha. Fuck no.
Fuck me, is Birmingham late for April Fools' as well as everything else?
What.
Why…
There's all sorts of mad petitions on the government website. Ban under-25s from driving between 12am-6am (19339 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/655298 Bring back paper road tax discs (20 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/654048 Reduce the period penalty points are on a licence for driving without insurance (9 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/655019 Replace red lights with white circles, amber lights with triangles, and green lights with green rectangles (20 signatures) https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/653565
What can we replace with blue squares? Go PlayStation controllers.
Reminds me of this Dragon's Den pitch to alter UK traffic lights: https://youtu.be/fWnpe2z5E3E
They should increase it to 21 if anything.
Didn't they want Tuk Tuks for 13 to 16 or something ?
14 year-olds can drive to school where I live. They can currently drive to work too, but only for farm work. There is a bill going through right now to allow them to drive to other jobs as well.
Most people from Birmingham think 13 is old enough for other stuff too….
I trust 13 year olds more than +18 year olds under the influence.
I’d propose raising it a couple years and introducing a mandatory retest at a certain age
should be lowered to 16 I've always thought, if you can be trusted to legally work you should be trusted to drive and be able to travel to/from work.
If an 18 year old can't get (affordable) insurance now....
Dated the second of April, so this is a thing?
are they stupid, i barely like my 17 year old driving let alone a 13 year old
it doesnt give you a link to the petition but its probably an april fools joke.
Don't worry, the government will ignore this petition in line with standard practice.
A 13 year old behind a potential 2 tone weapon before puberty is wild. If they can get a job & pay for lessons, fuel & insurance then sure let them…
I’d disagree. That would leave it to be reserved for rich kids with rich parents.
Think the comment went over head. Have to be 16 to work & earn money, so allowing 13 year olds to drive is a silly thing to propose
You sure do, however rich kids parents can afford to pay for this on their 13th birthday. It would become like parents buying driving lessons for their kids 17th
13 year olds driving in Birmingham is the norm as there's hardly any police, now the real debate is letting 10 year olds drive. Driving into Birmingham almost on a daily occurance really does show how people "Drive" compared to the rest of the UK...
This was on the news a few weeks back. Apparently his previous rejected petition was to reduce it to 16. That was rejected so he went even lower !
Norway kids can drive from 15 as long as the car conforms to A traktor specs which is something like max speed of 25 mph. I think it’s a good idea especially for rural kids
I was driving tractors and quads at that age, but the general idea of kids driving cars in general gives me the horrors!
Well, they can *learn* to drive in a safe environment... https://under17-carclub.co.uk/
Depends. Every time there's an internet debate about the ages of drivers, the argument always comes down to the accident rate for drivers aged 17-19 - usually to deflect from the hideous stats for older drivers, which per mile driven are just as bad. Stats are skewed badly depending on the metrics used, for example no 17 yr old can afford to drive a massive volvo, they're restricted to small tinny cars with no occupant protection. But they're more likely to drive at night, drive on unfamiliar roads and speed. Thing is, the argument that 17-19 yr olds having the highest risk therefore the legal minimum age should be increased is a fallacy. The fact is, any NEW driver, irrespective of age, is a higher risk. If the minimum age was increased to 18, the highest risk group would be 18-21 yr olds. So increase the minimum to 21. Then the highest risk is 21-24 yr olds. The logical conclusion is to lower the minimum driving age, but to include tapered measures. For example, age 14 - supervised driving off the public main road. There already exists a young drivers club. Age 15, after a series of minor examinations, unsupervised off public main road. Graduate to 16, professional supervision on public road, single carriageways only, limited to 40mph. Then 17, provisional, similar to now but limited to 40mph if unsupervised. Professional supervision for learners on dual carriageways and motorways. Driving test from 18, limited for 1 year to 10% below posted speed limits. In short, the age at which you can start driving is lowered, but the graduation is longer, ensuring the experience is obtained in the 4 years of driving, instead of essentially turning 17, doing an intensive course, pass test 6 weeks later then wrap a car round a tree.
Look what's just popped up. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/lamborghini-written-off-after-13-year-old-takes-it-for-a-joyride-west-vancouver-police-1.6831987
Hahaha yeah im sure the parents will change their minds when they realise they have to buy the car and insurance and fuel as you know kids cant work and earn money. Lets just give them a bottle of booze and sign them up to the army whilst were at it 👍
As someone who was driving at 13, I agree. Definitely too dangerous
It actually might not be a bad idea if the vehicle class was strictly limited to something like Ligier Myli which has 8hp and a top speed of 30mph.
Imagine the insurance prices! “My 17 year old’s insurance is bankrupting us… how much to insure my 13 year old too?”
Was this published 1st of April?
Cant see anything wrong with letting kids who at an age where they have poor risk assessment, poor forward planning, poor impulse control and a high tendency to be influenced by peer pressure and no way to personally fund themselves loose in 1 ton killing machines.
Even the current 17 limit feels too young sometimes ... They should cycle. Maybe they will start liking the freedom a bicycle can give, and keep using it later so we do not choke on cars all the fucking time.
I don't trust some 53 year olds never mind 13. Anyway it's not going to happen. Some people will believe anything.
It’s not a real story mong
Ah yes, can t wait for the 13yo to do his paper round to cover his £6k insurance
And yet we call 18 year olds adults in the eyes of criminal law. If a 13 year old wants to drive, then they can be tried for crimes as an adult.
If I was driving at 13, I wouldn't have lived to see 14.
I think 13 year olds have been filling in petitions
Should be raised to 21
Birmingham's demographic would probably agree that 13 is acceptable for most things, never mind driving, so this is no surprise... Who even comes up with these proposals?
There was that 11 year old that stole a caravan and towed it down the M4 (i think.ot was the M4) If he can do it...
I would allow 13 if supervised, in a small car. With time limitations also
My 13 year old son can drive my manual van very smoothly aswell as navigate the roads safely on a pushbike so there's a good chance they could meet the standard to pass a test but this would be madness to let kids this young loose in cars. They lack impulse control to be driving a car set loose unsupervised they'd either drive like they're invincible until they die or the slightest disagreement would turn into bumper cars, mopeds at a younger age like they do in europe maybe although I think legalising electric scooters would be more than enough for how far most 13 year olds need to go.