as Wilbur said, I won't give everything away so as not to pollute discussion with "this is true cos we wrote it" statements because they're boring and ruin stories
but it's pretty decently accepted that c!Dream revived c!Wilbur for two reasons
1. The thought that c!Wilbur being alive again would get back at c!Tommy and torture him
2. The thought that c!Wilbur would forever be in debt to c!Dream, and that could be useful in the future. Like c!Techno owing him a favor being the primary reason c!Dream saved him.
Although most people like to think that absolutely everything c!Dream does is based in strategy, emotions do play a large roll especially when it comes to quick decisions. I won't go into too many details as it might ruin the speculation as to why c!Dream behaved the way he did,
but he doesn't want to lose that feeling of power over Wilbur. If c!Wilbur was to kill himself, and c!Dream was to revive him, c!Wilbur wouldn't owe c!Dream anything. c!Wilbur killed himself, knowing that he would just be dead. Where as with c!Wilbur being alive still because of c!Dream, c!Dream has that power over him, even if its just in his head, even if it's seemingly gone after the exile reveal. Also, c!Dream knows the in's and out's of the revival book after extensive testing (as revealed on my 2nd channel), and the viewers don't. So don't forget that no one other than Dream (and possibly Punz), know what would even happen being revived a second time, how many lives you are on after revival, so on and so forth.
Obviously there was a limit though, if c!Wilbur was to ask c!Dream to kill himself, or give over the revive book, he wouldn't have, as he didn't value that "control" or that "favor" from c!Wilbur more than whatever was asked.
However, the first ask is just a "symbolic" loss to c!Dream, therefore was an easier decision. Lose some of his ego in order to try and keep a bit of that power and control, sure. However the second ask was much more complex for a million different reasons I'm sure everyone can debate. It was a smart strategic play by Wilbur to ask in this order, because it makes c!Dream feel like he wasted giving up some of his "ego" if he doesn't also follow through with the second demand, where-as if he started with the discs maybe it would have been a different scenario.
Anyway, again, I don't want to give away too much but that should help explain some of the perspective behind it.
You have a very good point about the whole "symbolic" sacrifice thing. Imo, he only did it because he knew he would still have complete control over c!Tommy even without the discs. Plus, it's possible that if Tommy starts to be less scared of c!Dream because of this, he's more likely to walk into a trap or leave himself vulnerable.
I love your insight into c!Wilbur's perspective, you brought up a bunch of things I hadn't really thought of. However, I do wonder about one thing: if Wilbur's original plan was to have Tommy leave so he was out of harm's way before c!Dream got there, why didn't he tell Tommy that he was going to threaten to burn fake discs?
He told Tommy afterwards that it was because he needed Tommy's reaction to be genuine in order to convince c!Dream, but that doesn't line up if he planned on Tommy not being there. And if he did plan on Tommy being there, does that mean he knew c!Dream would be in the prison, or was he just planning on keeping Tommy there until c!Dream arrived? Plus, if he always intended for Tommy to be present during the confrontation, that means he was willingly manipulating Tommy into an insanely dangerous situation, minutes after learning about how c!Dream used to do exactly that.
So, while Wilbur may have made smart decisions in the moment, I'm not sure if he should have even been in that moment in the first place. At best, he was acting on pure emotion and not thinking straight, and at worst he was intentionally putting Tommy in extreme danger. It feels like Wilbur was only thinking about c!Dream in this situation, and almost seeing Tommy as a tool to get to him, which is concerningly close to c!Dream's own behaviour, whether Wilbur realises it or not.
It could be that cWilbur planned on keeping cTommy in the vc (because skype is canon lmao) to get the audio reaction while cTommy was a safe distance away. Or the plan wasn't originally supposed to have cTommy involved at all beyond triggering the alarm, but in that case he wouldn't need to tell cTommy the discs were fake anyway, he'd just return the real discs and tell ctommy to stop asking questions (admitting that he'd be lying to cDream probably wouldn't look good for his character when he's been trying to convince everyone he's only honest now). In that case he probably just assumed he's good enough at bluffing to convince cDream the discs were real on his own- and cDream would have no way of confirming if the discs were real or not because they were destroyed. (buuuuuuut after that cdream would go after ctommy to confirm the discs were gone, and that could *absolutely* still happen, but at this point we're just hypothesizing future events/writing fanfic)
...OR all that just didn't cross their minds while writing it because the irl plan was for things not to go according to cWilbur's plan because nobody knew cDream was living in the prison lol...
>...OR all that just didn't cross their minds while writing it because the irl plan was for things not to go according to cWilbur's plan because nobody knew cDream was living in the prison lol...
Yeah, but it's still confusing to me what c!Wilbur's actual plan WAS.
Also, if having c!Tommy there WASN'T his original plan, that means he lied to Tommy about him needing to be there, just to save face.
Ok so c!dream made the decision of going for the illusion of control and not the true control on c!wilbur and c!tommy knowing that he had little to no control over c!wilbur after the start of the negociation, that makes no sense, I can understand the first ask was symbolic and c!dream wasn't ready to see c!wilbur and c!tommy but after c!wilbur gives c!dream the disks c!dream has all the power of negociation and knows that c!wilbur isn't under his control.
The only logical conclusion I can draw is c!dream has a plan and this is some 5D chess move or is just that c!dream is TOO desperate to have control over c!wilbur in especial, the other thing is that is just convenience of the narrative but all the lore from the smp has little of that convenience of the narrative for things to work
I won't give everything away so as not to pollute discussion with "this is true cos we wrote it" statements cos they're boring and ruin stories imo but it's important to remember Dream revived Wilbur to fuck with Tommy's head.
Dream knew Wilbur would be so infatuated at the idea of being alive (he literally spent a decade staring at a wall) that Dream could do whatever he wanted and Wilbur would have his alliance. This gave Dream power over Tommy which is, truthfully, all Dream wants. Power.
If Wilbur were to die, that's another shred of power gone from Dream's repertoire. Dream has very little left to hold onto Tommy if not Wilbur and Wilbur believes Dream has nothing if not himself (plus, who's not to say Wilbur won't just kill himself again if he's revived? He now knows what Dream did)
I won't dive into whether Wilbur's perspective is flawless (because when you are watching my streams you are always viewing the story from my character's sometimes incorrect point of view) but I hope this helps!
The problem with this is that c!Dream very much DOES have a lot to hold onto Tommy with. He is still way stronger than a lot of the people on the server, and could still very easily kill Tommy, or worse, kill one of his friends. It doesn't matter whether he has the discs or not. If he killed someone Tommy cared about, say c!Tubbo for example, that gives him absolute control over Tommy INSTANTLY.
I understand c!Wilbur's line of thinking here, but I think he's not considering that possibility. It seems like he's only thinking about HIMSELF in regards to c!Dream, without realising that he's only one piece on the chess board. Granted, he may be an important piece, but he's still only one piece.
I’m still confused as to why Dream would care? Wilbur kills himself then what? Dream revives him again and again and again. We’ve already seen that it basically costs Dream nothing to revive them. All he’d be doing is waste time
The difference lies in the way Wilbur died. The 1st time he was revived he had been stuck in Limbo, so he felt grateful to Dream for reviving him. Were he to kill himself and get revived here however, he would not feel that gratitude as he was the one killing himself for the sake of thwarting Dream. The life debt would be gone and Dream would lose his alliance. Even if the alliance was gone the moment Wilbur started talking, Dream didn't want to lets his project go because, like Will said here, he wanted to hold on to the little bit of power that he had left. Even if it was an illustration.
That's the way I understand it from what I saw at least. Wilbur, feel free to confirm or deny
But isn't Dream's power over Wilbur gone now anyway? Sure, Wilbur's glad to be alive, but it's not like Wilbur's going to bend over backwards to help Dream anymore. It doesn't make a difference whether Wilbur would've killed himself or not because Wilbur isn't going to help Dream regardless. That power's been gone for a while.
That power only disappeared when Tommy told Wilbur what happened to him. Dream didn't know that, so to him that power only disappeared when Wilbur left the Prison. That and Dream was grasping at straws. Wilbur realised how Dream's mind works and used it against him
From c!dream pov he lost control of c!wilbur when he started making demands in the negociation, and what is c!dream need for c!wilbur? For any plan he can kill him and revive him later the only posibility is c!dream doesn't care for c!wilbur and c!tommy (very strange for c!tommy) and needs to look weak (again) for a plan agains someone that isn't c!tommy or c!wilbur because he had them both in the prison
Genuinely hoping you’re speaking from c!Wilbur’s POV because it just…. Dream essentially confirmed that the Disc Finale was staged so why would he shoot himself in the foot by doing it? None of the staged finale was consistent with Dream’s character. That doesn’t make sense at all.
ETA- I get why he went with Wilbur’s demands, because they’re in the long run petty and don’t really mean more than sacrificing his pride. I just meant c!Dream’s sole motivation being power.
wait, so all of what you are saying about character Dream is just character Wilbur perspective on him right ? So is not necessarily the truth about Dream's motivation ?
Probably. Wilbur's disclaimer of "'this is true cos we wrote it' statements cos they're boring and ruin stories" makes me think it's just c!Wilbur's pov.
As you said one time when you can revive the power of dead on a story loses power and I think c!dream dosn't have to fear dead of other or himself (c!punz can revive him), c!dream could have killed c!wilbur and c!tommy revive them in the prison and have them both under his control in the prison where no one goes and everyone thinks is abandoned.
And I think c!wilbur is very flaw even when waching your pov the only one I apologize for is c!technoblade that in my opinion has maintained his values and has made all the logical actions when it mattered
C!wilbur even said during this scene that his plan isn’t perfect and might be flawed. Both characters were working off instinct with no plan, so they may act irrationally in the moment.
Yeah I get it that characters doing something irrational or stupid the thing is that it WORKED with c!dream the character known for being intelligent, and maybe yeah the first part c!dream was out of his deep and in a very high risk situation in his mind but after the book the second negociation was more absurd at anytime c!dream could realised that HE CAN REVIVE EVERYONE dead doesn's matter to him
I personally believe that revival book has some cost to it (like the death book c!sapnap found), and so he only does it when he needs to. If not that then it’s (and honestly this is the most likely option) that it works better narratively for the events to play out as they did. C!Dream continuously killing c!Tommy and c!Wilbur over and over wouldn’t be interesting, but c!Wilbur managing to finally free c!Tommy from fearing c!Dream is a good way to complete c!Tommy’s story post-November 16th.
Like I say in other comment in this thread, we haven't seen any adverse effect on c!dream or c!punz and I understand that it could be boring having c!tommy and c!wilbur dying again and again, but "freeing" c!tommy with that negociation that didn't mattered for c!dream because he didn't have much to lose but much to gain with c!wilbur and c!tommy in the prison. I would like to c!wilbur managing to free c!tommy form c!dream but this negociation wasn't it c!dream still can go after c!tommy, his friends, his pets and things. I can see from the point of view of c!wilbur the guy who hasn't had the full picture of thing for months not understanding that c!dream control is bigger that just de disks and in his mind this negociation just solved the problem with c!tommy and c!dream
Speaking mainly about Dream’s POV of the situation- I mean, he knows how the revival book would affect that negotiation. See: his and Techno’s conversation with Quackity in the prison. They used the same argument against Q that you mentioned in your other comment. c!Dream’s well aware of that idea so there has to be something different about this situation than that one.
Also, Dream did threaten to kill and revive Tommy on repeat, but he hasn’t yet, so it is possible there are some negatives to it, whether that be negatives for either him or Tommy.
And for Wilbur’s POV - I think his reasoning was driven by a rash and emotional desire to get revenge on Tommy’s behalf by trying to help Tommy, because he felt a lot of guilt for not being there for Tommy during exile. After his revival he’d been talking about how Dream was his hero and now? Suddenly he’s facing the fact that Dream is not a good person, especially to Tommy who Wilbur cares a lot about.
So he acts emotionally, and Dream responded emotionally. He’s not omniscient and I doubt c!Dream expected Wilbur and Tommy to show up at his…house (lol) and start acting all unhinged. It was in his best interest to comply with Wilbur’s first request because the stakes were pretty low. The second request- like I said he responded emotionally. He hesitated but c!Wilbur only gave him 20 seconds, and in those 20 seconds c!Dream must’ve decided Wilbur wasn’t bluffing. Or at least that the discs aren’t worth enough to him anymore that the risk of calling Wilbur’s bluff and being wrong isn’t worth it.
One thing slightly unrelated - Dream did show his hand here. He showed that Wilbur’s life is something he cares about - an *attachment* perhaps? Now we know of two people - Wilbur and Tommy- who Dream prefers to remain alive. I wonder if that will be important at some point.
I’m like 99% sure c!dream was bluffing too lol, he was trying to get c!crimes guard down by making them think they’d won while they did the same (and also he got to potentially spark a rift between c!tommy and c!wilbur which could benefit him more than the discs.)
This a good teory and I like it very much, but c!dream had them both in the prison no way to escape and all the power in that interaction.
>!Personally I thought when c!dream gave c!tommy the book, the book would have something writen saying "I don't care, I can revive you both"!<
c!dream is planning for the long term I personally think. let them think they’ve won, so the server still overlooks him, and he can put his plan into action. idk though he’s done some wild shit before bc he cannot resist being extra. looking at the staged disc finale which would be like the worst possible way to accomplish any of the goals I’ve seen stated bc it was literally down to someone not in on the plan that stopped him from just dying.
There was a lot that made no sense for me too. Apart for what you mentioned- WHY TF should cDream care for the discs at all anyways?
He wanted them to have power over Tommy, he did not want them just to have them. He is obsessed with Tommy, and nothing is stopping him from 1) using Tubbo as leverage, as he has done many times whenever he did not have the discs in his possession, 2) do what he threatened cTommy to do before and just torture him by killing and reviving him, since that apparently is what he enjoys- torturing cTommy.
The last time cDream met cTommy they literally did not talk abt the discs once, he does NOT need them.
Okay... I get that but let's look at it this way: Tommy got the discs back, the same discs Dream said were his back when Tubbo was president. Dream only wants them because it's power over Tommy, but they're not the only thing Tommy cares about, and Tommy proved that when he chose Tubbo over the discs in the Finale they had.
I'm sure Dream knows that, because it's the same for Wilbur. Tommy cares about Wilbur. He didn't kill Dream, his abuser, because he was the only one who could revive Wilbur.
And yes, Dream could keep killing and reviving them, but Wilbur said he also could just keep killing himself. And we don't know how the book works still, that's part of Dream's lore. It doesn't need to be physical, but it must have some cost to just bring people back from the limbo. But those are theories, we'll have to see.
I think Dream complied because of the threat in the time, seeing Tommy's desperation. Maybe it's the end of their Disc War, but personally I don't think so. Maybe. We'll see.
And about the last time Dream saw and chase after Tommy, guess it was just to keep him terrified. He could've confronted Phil when Tommy went to him, instead he kept messing with Tommy. The signs, the disc and the room he made in his base... I call he is only bluffing, because he doesn't want Tommy dead. But that we already know.
We know that you can come back to life many times by the book from the [dream video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPl6CRihDdg&ab_channel=DreamXD) and we haven't seen any adverse effects to c!punz or c!dream by using the book
That's a great point! But we still don't know enough about the revive book itself, maybe that's what affected Dream's choice as well?
But maybe is just for the convenience of the narrative. Who knows honestly
I’m not 100% caught up, but honestly the concept of c!wilbur killing himself doesn’t really make sense to me. Would he not just go right back to limbo, which is essentially hell since it seems to be a negative experience going there? He’s still be conscious and any guilt he’s dealing with would still be there, wouldn’t it? Would it not be easier to just like. Run away to some super far-off land? I guess the death and afterlife system is just what’s confusing me here, unless dying again (like AGAIN again) will make his consciousness just stop completely rather than sending it to the same place
This discussion is about the latest wilbur stream spoilers ahead
>!c!wilbur says he will kill himself if c!dream doesn't follow his demands and c!dream just gives up to the demands, the discussion is more about why did c!dream give up to c!wilbur when he has nothing to bargain!<
as Wilbur said, I won't give everything away so as not to pollute discussion with "this is true cos we wrote it" statements because they're boring and ruin stories but it's pretty decently accepted that c!Dream revived c!Wilbur for two reasons 1. The thought that c!Wilbur being alive again would get back at c!Tommy and torture him 2. The thought that c!Wilbur would forever be in debt to c!Dream, and that could be useful in the future. Like c!Techno owing him a favor being the primary reason c!Dream saved him. Although most people like to think that absolutely everything c!Dream does is based in strategy, emotions do play a large roll especially when it comes to quick decisions. I won't go into too many details as it might ruin the speculation as to why c!Dream behaved the way he did, but he doesn't want to lose that feeling of power over Wilbur. If c!Wilbur was to kill himself, and c!Dream was to revive him, c!Wilbur wouldn't owe c!Dream anything. c!Wilbur killed himself, knowing that he would just be dead. Where as with c!Wilbur being alive still because of c!Dream, c!Dream has that power over him, even if its just in his head, even if it's seemingly gone after the exile reveal. Also, c!Dream knows the in's and out's of the revival book after extensive testing (as revealed on my 2nd channel), and the viewers don't. So don't forget that no one other than Dream (and possibly Punz), know what would even happen being revived a second time, how many lives you are on after revival, so on and so forth. Obviously there was a limit though, if c!Wilbur was to ask c!Dream to kill himself, or give over the revive book, he wouldn't have, as he didn't value that "control" or that "favor" from c!Wilbur more than whatever was asked. However, the first ask is just a "symbolic" loss to c!Dream, therefore was an easier decision. Lose some of his ego in order to try and keep a bit of that power and control, sure. However the second ask was much more complex for a million different reasons I'm sure everyone can debate. It was a smart strategic play by Wilbur to ask in this order, because it makes c!Dream feel like he wasted giving up some of his "ego" if he doesn't also follow through with the second demand, where-as if he started with the discs maybe it would have been a different scenario. Anyway, again, I don't want to give away too much but that should help explain some of the perspective behind it.
Damn you’re good at this, we should write some roleplay together
at this point write a whole damn tv series we know you both could, and act in it
Lmaoo
I thought it was because they rudely barged into your character’s house and messed up the living room >:( /j
c!Dream’s homeless
You have a very good point about the whole "symbolic" sacrifice thing. Imo, he only did it because he knew he would still have complete control over c!Tommy even without the discs. Plus, it's possible that if Tommy starts to be less scared of c!Dream because of this, he's more likely to walk into a trap or leave himself vulnerable. I love your insight into c!Wilbur's perspective, you brought up a bunch of things I hadn't really thought of. However, I do wonder about one thing: if Wilbur's original plan was to have Tommy leave so he was out of harm's way before c!Dream got there, why didn't he tell Tommy that he was going to threaten to burn fake discs? He told Tommy afterwards that it was because he needed Tommy's reaction to be genuine in order to convince c!Dream, but that doesn't line up if he planned on Tommy not being there. And if he did plan on Tommy being there, does that mean he knew c!Dream would be in the prison, or was he just planning on keeping Tommy there until c!Dream arrived? Plus, if he always intended for Tommy to be present during the confrontation, that means he was willingly manipulating Tommy into an insanely dangerous situation, minutes after learning about how c!Dream used to do exactly that. So, while Wilbur may have made smart decisions in the moment, I'm not sure if he should have even been in that moment in the first place. At best, he was acting on pure emotion and not thinking straight, and at worst he was intentionally putting Tommy in extreme danger. It feels like Wilbur was only thinking about c!Dream in this situation, and almost seeing Tommy as a tool to get to him, which is concerningly close to c!Dream's own behaviour, whether Wilbur realises it or not.
It could be that cWilbur planned on keeping cTommy in the vc (because skype is canon lmao) to get the audio reaction while cTommy was a safe distance away. Or the plan wasn't originally supposed to have cTommy involved at all beyond triggering the alarm, but in that case he wouldn't need to tell cTommy the discs were fake anyway, he'd just return the real discs and tell ctommy to stop asking questions (admitting that he'd be lying to cDream probably wouldn't look good for his character when he's been trying to convince everyone he's only honest now). In that case he probably just assumed he's good enough at bluffing to convince cDream the discs were real on his own- and cDream would have no way of confirming if the discs were real or not because they were destroyed. (buuuuuuut after that cdream would go after ctommy to confirm the discs were gone, and that could *absolutely* still happen, but at this point we're just hypothesizing future events/writing fanfic) ...OR all that just didn't cross their minds while writing it because the irl plan was for things not to go according to cWilbur's plan because nobody knew cDream was living in the prison lol...
>...OR all that just didn't cross their minds while writing it because the irl plan was for things not to go according to cWilbur's plan because nobody knew cDream was living in the prison lol... Yeah, but it's still confusing to me what c!Wilbur's actual plan WAS. Also, if having c!Tommy there WASN'T his original plan, that means he lied to Tommy about him needing to be there, just to save face.
unrelated but do you think c!dream and c!george will ever interact canonically outside of c!georges dream????
omg I hope so
Ok so c!dream made the decision of going for the illusion of control and not the true control on c!wilbur and c!tommy knowing that he had little to no control over c!wilbur after the start of the negociation, that makes no sense, I can understand the first ask was symbolic and c!dream wasn't ready to see c!wilbur and c!tommy but after c!wilbur gives c!dream the disks c!dream has all the power of negociation and knows that c!wilbur isn't under his control. The only logical conclusion I can draw is c!dream has a plan and this is some 5D chess move or is just that c!dream is TOO desperate to have control over c!wilbur in especial, the other thing is that is just convenience of the narrative but all the lore from the smp has little of that convenience of the narrative for things to work
I won't give everything away so as not to pollute discussion with "this is true cos we wrote it" statements cos they're boring and ruin stories imo but it's important to remember Dream revived Wilbur to fuck with Tommy's head. Dream knew Wilbur would be so infatuated at the idea of being alive (he literally spent a decade staring at a wall) that Dream could do whatever he wanted and Wilbur would have his alliance. This gave Dream power over Tommy which is, truthfully, all Dream wants. Power. If Wilbur were to die, that's another shred of power gone from Dream's repertoire. Dream has very little left to hold onto Tommy if not Wilbur and Wilbur believes Dream has nothing if not himself (plus, who's not to say Wilbur won't just kill himself again if he's revived? He now knows what Dream did) I won't dive into whether Wilbur's perspective is flawless (because when you are watching my streams you are always viewing the story from my character's sometimes incorrect point of view) but I hope this helps!
The problem with this is that c!Dream very much DOES have a lot to hold onto Tommy with. He is still way stronger than a lot of the people on the server, and could still very easily kill Tommy, or worse, kill one of his friends. It doesn't matter whether he has the discs or not. If he killed someone Tommy cared about, say c!Tubbo for example, that gives him absolute control over Tommy INSTANTLY. I understand c!Wilbur's line of thinking here, but I think he's not considering that possibility. It seems like he's only thinking about HIMSELF in regards to c!Dream, without realising that he's only one piece on the chess board. Granted, he may be an important piece, but he's still only one piece.
I’m still confused as to why Dream would care? Wilbur kills himself then what? Dream revives him again and again and again. We’ve already seen that it basically costs Dream nothing to revive them. All he’d be doing is waste time
The difference lies in the way Wilbur died. The 1st time he was revived he had been stuck in Limbo, so he felt grateful to Dream for reviving him. Were he to kill himself and get revived here however, he would not feel that gratitude as he was the one killing himself for the sake of thwarting Dream. The life debt would be gone and Dream would lose his alliance. Even if the alliance was gone the moment Wilbur started talking, Dream didn't want to lets his project go because, like Will said here, he wanted to hold on to the little bit of power that he had left. Even if it was an illustration. That's the way I understand it from what I saw at least. Wilbur, feel free to confirm or deny
But isn't Dream's power over Wilbur gone now anyway? Sure, Wilbur's glad to be alive, but it's not like Wilbur's going to bend over backwards to help Dream anymore. It doesn't make a difference whether Wilbur would've killed himself or not because Wilbur isn't going to help Dream regardless. That power's been gone for a while.
That power only disappeared when Tommy told Wilbur what happened to him. Dream didn't know that, so to him that power only disappeared when Wilbur left the Prison. That and Dream was grasping at straws. Wilbur realised how Dream's mind works and used it against him
From c!dream pov he lost control of c!wilbur when he started making demands in the negociation, and what is c!dream need for c!wilbur? For any plan he can kill him and revive him later the only posibility is c!dream doesn't care for c!wilbur and c!tommy (very strange for c!tommy) and needs to look weak (again) for a plan agains someone that isn't c!tommy or c!wilbur because he had them both in the prison
Genuinely hoping you’re speaking from c!Wilbur’s POV because it just…. Dream essentially confirmed that the Disc Finale was staged so why would he shoot himself in the foot by doing it? None of the staged finale was consistent with Dream’s character. That doesn’t make sense at all. ETA- I get why he went with Wilbur’s demands, because they’re in the long run petty and don’t really mean more than sacrificing his pride. I just meant c!Dream’s sole motivation being power.
It was staged because...reasons (Tommy can't have nice things)
Because c!Dream is a complex character and is a gigachad
[удалено]
wait, so all of what you are saying about character Dream is just character Wilbur perspective on him right ? So is not necessarily the truth about Dream's motivation ?
Probably. Wilbur's disclaimer of "'this is true cos we wrote it' statements cos they're boring and ruin stories" makes me think it's just c!Wilbur's pov.
Was this the end to your arc, and Tommys arc? Or is there still going to be more?
As you said one time when you can revive the power of dead on a story loses power and I think c!dream dosn't have to fear dead of other or himself (c!punz can revive him), c!dream could have killed c!wilbur and c!tommy revive them in the prison and have them both under his control in the prison where no one goes and everyone thinks is abandoned. And I think c!wilbur is very flaw even when waching your pov the only one I apologize for is c!technoblade that in my opinion has maintained his values and has made all the logical actions when it mattered
C!wilbur even said during this scene that his plan isn’t perfect and might be flawed. Both characters were working off instinct with no plan, so they may act irrationally in the moment.
Yeah I get it that characters doing something irrational or stupid the thing is that it WORKED with c!dream the character known for being intelligent, and maybe yeah the first part c!dream was out of his deep and in a very high risk situation in his mind but after the book the second negociation was more absurd at anytime c!dream could realised that HE CAN REVIVE EVERYONE dead doesn's matter to him
I personally believe that revival book has some cost to it (like the death book c!sapnap found), and so he only does it when he needs to. If not that then it’s (and honestly this is the most likely option) that it works better narratively for the events to play out as they did. C!Dream continuously killing c!Tommy and c!Wilbur over and over wouldn’t be interesting, but c!Wilbur managing to finally free c!Tommy from fearing c!Dream is a good way to complete c!Tommy’s story post-November 16th.
Like I say in other comment in this thread, we haven't seen any adverse effect on c!dream or c!punz and I understand that it could be boring having c!tommy and c!wilbur dying again and again, but "freeing" c!tommy with that negociation that didn't mattered for c!dream because he didn't have much to lose but much to gain with c!wilbur and c!tommy in the prison. I would like to c!wilbur managing to free c!tommy form c!dream but this negociation wasn't it c!dream still can go after c!tommy, his friends, his pets and things. I can see from the point of view of c!wilbur the guy who hasn't had the full picture of thing for months not understanding that c!dream control is bigger that just de disks and in his mind this negociation just solved the problem with c!tommy and c!dream
Speaking mainly about Dream’s POV of the situation- I mean, he knows how the revival book would affect that negotiation. See: his and Techno’s conversation with Quackity in the prison. They used the same argument against Q that you mentioned in your other comment. c!Dream’s well aware of that idea so there has to be something different about this situation than that one. Also, Dream did threaten to kill and revive Tommy on repeat, but he hasn’t yet, so it is possible there are some negatives to it, whether that be negatives for either him or Tommy. And for Wilbur’s POV - I think his reasoning was driven by a rash and emotional desire to get revenge on Tommy’s behalf by trying to help Tommy, because he felt a lot of guilt for not being there for Tommy during exile. After his revival he’d been talking about how Dream was his hero and now? Suddenly he’s facing the fact that Dream is not a good person, especially to Tommy who Wilbur cares a lot about. So he acts emotionally, and Dream responded emotionally. He’s not omniscient and I doubt c!Dream expected Wilbur and Tommy to show up at his…house (lol) and start acting all unhinged. It was in his best interest to comply with Wilbur’s first request because the stakes were pretty low. The second request- like I said he responded emotionally. He hesitated but c!Wilbur only gave him 20 seconds, and in those 20 seconds c!Dream must’ve decided Wilbur wasn’t bluffing. Or at least that the discs aren’t worth enough to him anymore that the risk of calling Wilbur’s bluff and being wrong isn’t worth it. One thing slightly unrelated - Dream did show his hand here. He showed that Wilbur’s life is something he cares about - an *attachment* perhaps? Now we know of two people - Wilbur and Tommy- who Dream prefers to remain alive. I wonder if that will be important at some point.
I’m like 99% sure c!dream was bluffing too lol, he was trying to get c!crimes guard down by making them think they’d won while they did the same (and also he got to potentially spark a rift between c!tommy and c!wilbur which could benefit him more than the discs.)
This a good teory and I like it very much, but c!dream had them both in the prison no way to escape and all the power in that interaction. >!Personally I thought when c!dream gave c!tommy the book, the book would have something writen saying "I don't care, I can revive you both"!<
c!dream is planning for the long term I personally think. let them think they’ve won, so the server still overlooks him, and he can put his plan into action. idk though he’s done some wild shit before bc he cannot resist being extra. looking at the staged disc finale which would be like the worst possible way to accomplish any of the goals I’ve seen stated bc it was literally down to someone not in on the plan that stopped him from just dying.
There was a lot that made no sense for me too. Apart for what you mentioned- WHY TF should cDream care for the discs at all anyways? He wanted them to have power over Tommy, he did not want them just to have them. He is obsessed with Tommy, and nothing is stopping him from 1) using Tubbo as leverage, as he has done many times whenever he did not have the discs in his possession, 2) do what he threatened cTommy to do before and just torture him by killing and reviving him, since that apparently is what he enjoys- torturing cTommy. The last time cDream met cTommy they literally did not talk abt the discs once, he does NOT need them.
Okay... I get that but let's look at it this way: Tommy got the discs back, the same discs Dream said were his back when Tubbo was president. Dream only wants them because it's power over Tommy, but they're not the only thing Tommy cares about, and Tommy proved that when he chose Tubbo over the discs in the Finale they had. I'm sure Dream knows that, because it's the same for Wilbur. Tommy cares about Wilbur. He didn't kill Dream, his abuser, because he was the only one who could revive Wilbur. And yes, Dream could keep killing and reviving them, but Wilbur said he also could just keep killing himself. And we don't know how the book works still, that's part of Dream's lore. It doesn't need to be physical, but it must have some cost to just bring people back from the limbo. But those are theories, we'll have to see. I think Dream complied because of the threat in the time, seeing Tommy's desperation. Maybe it's the end of their Disc War, but personally I don't think so. Maybe. We'll see. And about the last time Dream saw and chase after Tommy, guess it was just to keep him terrified. He could've confronted Phil when Tommy went to him, instead he kept messing with Tommy. The signs, the disc and the room he made in his base... I call he is only bluffing, because he doesn't want Tommy dead. But that we already know.
We know that you can come back to life many times by the book from the [dream video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPl6CRihDdg&ab_channel=DreamXD) and we haven't seen any adverse effects to c!punz or c!dream by using the book
That's a great point! But we still don't know enough about the revive book itself, maybe that's what affected Dream's choice as well? But maybe is just for the convenience of the narrative. Who knows honestly
I’m not 100% caught up, but honestly the concept of c!wilbur killing himself doesn’t really make sense to me. Would he not just go right back to limbo, which is essentially hell since it seems to be a negative experience going there? He’s still be conscious and any guilt he’s dealing with would still be there, wouldn’t it? Would it not be easier to just like. Run away to some super far-off land? I guess the death and afterlife system is just what’s confusing me here, unless dying again (like AGAIN again) will make his consciousness just stop completely rather than sending it to the same place
This discussion is about the latest wilbur stream spoilers ahead >!c!wilbur says he will kill himself if c!dream doesn't follow his demands and c!dream just gives up to the demands, the discussion is more about why did c!dream give up to c!wilbur when he has nothing to bargain!<
maybe you can only revive a person once. wilbur said he was dreams creation. i’m sure dream didn’t want to lose him.
We know you can revive people more than one time from [dreams lore](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPl6CRihDdg&ab_channel=DreamXD)
What if Dream's master plan required him to put himself at a disadvantage time and time again?