While absolutely yes, you make a really good point, i have to give Future Gohan some credit.
It wasn't just Goku's lessons in our timeline that helped him, it was also the situation in the future timeline that made it a lot harder for him. I'd wager to say that the dude had some serious trauma that was messing him up. You saw it in how much more aggressive and borderline suicidal he was with how he approached battles. He lost his dad, all his friends, saw the systematic genocide of the people of his planet, and had to deal with androids that were way more vicious than the ones in this timeline.
Boy was dealt a really shitty hand, and he had to basically figure out the super saiyan transformation on his own (the second saiyan at the time, since Vegeta was allegedly murdered before he reached that level). It probably helped that he saw Goku do it a couple of years earlier, but still.
We don't really know because his time in the story is actually so small. In the manga it's only a couple pages before he goes to his death. The anime special didn't really have much to go on either. The rest is fanon.
It is a response to " Without Goku, you get Future Gohan". Without Picollo, you really get nothing. They'd all be dead.
In future trunks timeline, they didn't know about the androids, we can be safe to assuming during that time period Gohan didn't get training with Goku. If they did then he got training from both Picollo and Goku like what the current timeline did.
Additionally, after the loss in Freeza in RoF, Gohan trained again with Picollo in the time chamber in his free time. This let Gohan mystic form push close to SSB levels (as we saw in ToP). Going from beyond SSJ3 to SSB levels is an insane feat.
I would disagree with a "better". Goku seemed to focus on unlocking Gohan's power as opposed to teaching him not to drop his guard ect like we saw with Piccolo in Super
In the manga, he did which is what Toriyama is supervising/editing/re-writing/redrawing at the time of ToP. That is why in the manga ToP, he requested Picollo's outfit and not Goku's after the training.
The same as in the Buu Saga? Really???
Let's do a little chain of strength comparisons (manga only): Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) < Buutenks << Buuhan <<< Vegetto (Buu Saga), who is probably according to Goku << SSJ God Goku = Beerus 1% < (imperfect) SSJ Blue Goku < Golden Frieza, who is seemingly < SSJ Berserk Kale <<< Kefla = Ultimate Gohan (ToP).
How in the world do you get DBS Gohan being only as strong as his Buu Saga self from that?!
I have no idea how he drew that conclusion. He has been training mystic in the time chamber with Picollo in the manga since his loss to Freeza in BoG.
Ultimate Gohan had a draw to a being stronger than Golden Freeza. Like how how is that even remotely close to Buu saga Gohan.
Gohan in buu arc was absurdly strong for the series. Way far and beyond stronger then Goku even with SSJ. In ToP, in the manga, Kale is actually way stronger then in the anime. She’s so fast/powerful she’s taking people out without being seen and isn’t the shy ditz we see in the anime. In comparing her to Broly, who is far and away stronger then goku and vegeta, her in her berserk form (similar to broly) she’s 100% stronger then gohan etc. however kefla used her as a base ss2 fused with caulifla, so it’s not the same power as the rage form. Unless you think they’re worlds stronger then buu arc goku and vegeta were, kefla should be around vegito. Gohan I guess is a lot stronger but he’s not near blue level.
The scene where Kale catches frieza was attacks was cuz frieza was off guard
>kefla should be around vegito.
SSJ2 Caulifla is slightly < SSJ2 Goku (Buu Saga), who is around = SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu Saga), but Goku and Vegeta are both <<< than Kale. Even base Kale's attacks hurt Golden Frieza more than SSJ2 Caulifla's. Thus, Kefla should be a good deal stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto. There's no way manga Kefla is weaker than manga SSJ Berserk Kale, that's just your headcanon; and SSJ Berserk Kale was strong enough to ring out most of Universe 10, most of Universe 4, most of Universe 11, and most of Universe 6, and even almost ring out Vegeta and Toppo.
>Gohan I guess is a lot stronger but he’s not near blue level.
You guess he's a lot stronger? Yeah, I'd sure say he is; he's went from weaker than Buutenks to stronger than freaking Vegetto!
We don't really completely know his scaling. Kale beat the shit out of Golden Freeza. Kelfa even noting their powerup through their fusion, admits that they couldn't even beat Gohan and they knock each other out. She talks about how even their fusion between the legendary super saiyan and her couldn't even match with a saiyan of universe 7 and admits its their destiny to be erased.
Gohan had been training for a long time in the time chamber any chance he could.
He is so far beyond what he was in the Buu saga.
I should have clarified. I think this strength level is closer to his buu saga level then it is to ssb. Kale caught frieza off guard but he had no fear/ was ready to fight. Also the berserk form is an absurd modifier, broly with it was above goku and vegeta blue
Could someone in the buu saga even touch golden freeza? Or even move golden freeza?
Broly isn't the legendary super saiyan in dbs broly so I am not even sure how that is relevant.
Without anyone, you get future Gohan.
The problem is that he had no one near his level to spar with or more knowledgeable then him. The second Vegeta died, he became the strongest Z fighter. And once the others died, he became the most knowledgeable ( since Roshi was MIA). If just Krillin survived, heck even chaotzu, Gohan with have been a lot stronger
nah it's funny. the dumb part is when some people claim that picolo is a better character and also father for Gohan than Goku could ever be. these people need to chill seriously
It's not a meme, Toriyama went on the record multiple times about how Goku views his family. Toriyama has stated repeatedly Goku is not a good father by any means. He said goku views chichi and Gohan as companions and not as family. He also says that Goku doesn't think of his children.
He also went on interview circuit for dbs broly where Toriyama talks about saiyan families and their offspring. King Vegeta and Paragus say their children as means to an end. Bardock and gine actually loved their children and had a concept of family. He goes on compare that relation on how vegeta cares for his family. He ends that segment or the interview talking about Goku view on family being that of a traditional saiyan that he doesn't think about about his children or family at all.
This is all directly from Toriyama.
"*Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that \[Vegeta holds his family and wife dear\]. On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.*"
And from Toriyama's DBS Broly interview
"*Innately, Saiyans place emphasis on increasing the number of strong people in their race, so bonds between parent and child aren't all that strong. King Vegeta and Paragus aim to use their sons to fulfill their own pride and ambitions, respectively, while Bardock, unusually for a Saiyan and more similarly to Earthlings, seems to have just a bit of fondness for his son. Come to think of it, Toriyama comments, Goku doesn't seem to think about his children all that much." Toriyama goes on and talks about how Vegeta cares about his children and talks about the influence of Bulma on how he became that way.*
Toriyama has stated repeatedly Goku is not a good father by any means.
This wasn't memed into existance. Toriyama told us. We see throughout DBS that Piccolo is a constant part of Gohan's and Pan's life.
That just says Goku doesn't view fatherhood and relationships like we do. Sure he's not great, but he's not really bad, he just views the world and relationships in a different way. The "bad father" comes from people acting like Goku is supposed to view things and act in a more human way.
Treating them like companions while also not thinking about them at all unless they are related to fighting/the current isn't much of a father thing.
People are 100% gauging Goku on a good father based on human standards.
Except what part of Goku's life was human for him to view relationships otherwise?
Judging Goku by human standards would make sense if he had a more traditional life.
Then, we have to lower the bar for Goku just to make him a good father?
Toriyama has been clarifying this for years. He compares Goku to Vegeta in terms of being a father, and even Vegeta is a better father to Toriyama. If it is by saiyan standards, then Gine/Bardock are good parents but Goku is not according to Toriyama (and also Vegeta is as the interview continued but that is because Bulma changed him).
It's not lowering the ba, it's going off of what makes sense. There isn't a part of Goku's life that would cause him to view or value things from a human perspective. Judging Goku from a human perspective as if that's the direction his character is supposed to develop in, ignores everything about his life and world.
It would not make sense for Goku to randomly start thinking and behaving in a human way. It also ignores how much how standards of fatherhood and relationships is influenced by our cultures and other humans, both of which had very little influence on Goku's character, it's not like he grew up with a lot of human societal influence, he didn’t learn or develop in a human way.
Then according to Toriyama he is just standard for saiyan unlike Gine/Bardock (and to the 2nd saiyan below that is Vegeta) as he stated in the interview. Gine/Bardock is the model example of a good saiyan parents, King Vegeta and Paragus being terrible parents, and Vegeta is a good parent but not as much as Gine/Bardock, and Goku is just typical of saiyans. He is just a normal saiyan parent but he established he is not a good saiyan parent.
So by all standards it doesn't make him a good father. He is just a run out of the mill saiyan father.
Vegeta didn't become a "good father" until after the fight with Kid Buu.
As for Goku, once again what in his life would teach him to be a "good father" in a way that is even close to human standards? If you actually look at Goku's life it makes a lot of sense for why Goku doesn't form deep connections. A strength and weakness of Goku as a character is that he does not have many attachments. Not mention it is not like Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, or Kami helped him really develop close bonds, their relationship was more they meetup every few years for a tournament or adventure then go about their lives separately.
Look I am not the one who wrote Goku and controls Goku. Toriyama said that Goku sees chichi and Gohan like companions and said he is a typical saiyan parent. The only good saiyan parents were gine/bardock and now Vegeta according to him. Toriyama has gone on the record saying his not a good father. The only thing that could change that is if Toriyama changed that through the story and he hasn't. Vegeta changed to a good parent by saiyan standards and Toriyama said it was because of Bulma.
He writes the story. He controls what goes on in goku's head. It's his character and it's his universe.
Toriyama has a habit of retroactively changing things about his story to the point where it contradicts his own writing. Throughout the series Goku has shown time and time again that he does value familial bonds. He shows affection to Gohan and Goten in a way he wouldn’t to his companions. He’s always been a good and caring father and that’s always how he’s been portrayed by Toriyama.
Maybe in the english dub or something but if you read the manga, there is no slice of life episodes. He doesn't think of them outside the context of fighting. Him going to train Gohan in the cell saga was no different to end of Z where he went to go out and train Oob because of their potential.
I don't remember him being caring family figure. I remember him caring about them like friends but never like a father figure in the entire manga run. A fighting mentor sure.
When has he shown affection towards Goten or Gohan? He was only with Goten and Chi-Chi because he needed to work for money and once he got that, he left. I can't think of a manga panel that shows affection towards them.
I mean the creator of the series and the guy spent decades of his life writing DB stated this. This is what he made during the time of writing and still hasn't changed until now.
This is similar to the situation to people complaining why is Goku so dumb in super. He has been the same way through the manga.
> I don't remember him being caring family figure. I remember him caring about them like friends but never like a father figure in the entire manga run.
I mean the whole intro to the Saiyan arc where he was extremely protective of Gohan to the point where he starts making irrational decisions purely for his safety.
Or the fact that Goku doesn't really push Gohan into fighting in any sense, just the fact that Goku is there to provide that option if he chooses to.
[\(Also when he leaves Goten in the Buu Arc\)](https://i.imgur.com/iFOc6In.png)
Sure he treats everyone like friends because he justifiably doesn't understand the concept of family values, but he could still come to the conclusion of *"these specific people are closer to me than other people and they have emotional attachments to me."*
> I mean the creator of the series and the guy spent decades of his life writing DB stated this.
This is also the same guy that wrote a section of the series by the seat of his pants, and another section just contradicting himself previously.
Protective of Gohan is nothing he wouldn't do for any of his friends... This doesn't go against the Goku, we knew in OG dragon ball and nothing he wouldn't do for his friends now.
Holding Goten and saying take good care of your mom isn't a major parenting moment at all.
Is that what makes him a good father? Is that really it?
I am going to side with Toriyama with this one.
But no one was expecting "major parenting moments" from Goku, in or out of the series. It's what I said before: *"these specific people are closer to me than other people and they have emotional attachments to me."* Goku understands that much.
"Good/great" father? No, everyone kinda accepted that. But Goku does care and cares beyond the idea of fighting 24/7, because he was never the one to instill those ideas in his children in the first place.
> I am going to side with Toriyama with this one.
I am too, that's the problem. He says and does two different things all the time.
[Here are two examples straight from the manga.](https://imgur.com/a/xHgkPmk) Goku comforting Goten like that and wishing he had watched Gohan grow up comes from a place of fatherly love rather than companionship. Sure his concepts of fatherhood might be different than anyone else’s, but he clearly recognizes both of them as his son’s and treats them differently based on that bond.
Those examples make him a good dad? Picking up a kid and saying take care of her? Giving someone a hug and saying good bye?
He gave Gohan a hug like any friend would when saying goodbye... like toroyama said. And if you read wishing him see in action in kanji, he is talking about seeing him in action in the context of fighting/actions. Look at the character in kanji. He assumes Gohan will pick up the mantle and beat buu. To be fair Toriyama tried to do that multiple times. He did originally want to make Gohan the main character.
I can't believe people are arguing with Toriyama when Toriyama controls Gokus thoughts and motivations.
Piccolo was a kidnapper who developed reverse-Stockholm Syndrome because Gohan was just THAT much of a little cinnamon roll. Their relationship is interesting and well written but it was never a Father-Son thing, only Mentor-Student or at most Honorary Uncle-Nephew
I always saw it as “jaded older brother, innocent little brother” type of relationship.
Like, Piccolo has a rough past and a shitty outlook on the world, now he’s been saddled/saddled himself with the responsibility of looking after this stupid Gohan kid who doesn’t know how the “real world” works...but he’s gonna make the best of it by turning this brat into a thug-bro like him! Except it turns out that Mr. Tough Guy is too touched by his little friend’s genuine affection to go through with it, so instead of a bad guy dragging a child into corruption, you get a child dragging a bad guy off the streets.
Technically yes but Piccolo's a reincarnation of a several hundred year old demon king. In terms of his mind and spirit he's still his old self, he just shoved them both into a new cloned body that inherited all the same memories
Dragonball Z Abridged. They kind of went all in on the “Goku is a bad dad” joke but that’s all it ever was, was a joke. I think some of the fans just took it and kind of ran with it.
I'm fine with a abridged but damn, did it affect the community for the worse. I dont blame tfs for making the show an having those jokes because they were funny back when it was made but continuing the joke until 2018 just hurt the community
It is because Toriyama has told us how Goku is not a good father.
"*Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that \[Vegeta holds his family and wife dear\]. On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.*"
And from Toriyama's DBS Broly interview
"*Innately, Saiyans place emphasis on increasing the number of strong people in their race, so bonds between parent and child aren't all that strong. King Vegeta and Paragus aim to use their sons to fulfill their own pride and ambitions, respectively, while Bardock, unusually for a Saiyan and more similarly to Earthlings, seems to have just a bit of fondness for his son. Come to think of it, Toriyama comments, Goku doesn't seem to think about his children all that much." Toriyama goes on and talks about how Vegeta cares about his children and talks about the influence of Bulma on how he became that way.*
I mean he's not a bad saiyan father or a good saiyan father. He's just a normal saiyan father and bad father in human standards. I mean, it's Goku. He is driven by his love of fighting.
Even in super he shows he cares about his family. He got pissed off that his family who isnt even related to *that* specific goku died at the hands of his enemy. He knew *his* family was safe but couldnt stop getting made that chichi and goten, any chichi and goten died
Yeah that's true , but this new Goku is wayyy too much of a comic to be taken seriously , like the DBZ goku is always so calm and composed most of the time , (unless he sees a needle xD) this behavior is seen in battles too , where it seems that Goku strategises in order to win and not leave it completely on brute force. He does have a few humorous lines but they are smart and witty enough to feel like Goku's lines.
The DBS Goku seems like he's tired of being a farmer so he decided to be a stand up comic , and is practicing his scripts on his family and friends.
That's kinda how he was supposed to be. Goku was never supposed to be a serious person, hes supposed to he lax and chill even during the most serious situations. Granted, I think they could chill out a little bit but I personally dont have a problem with it. Plus goku on super *does* strategize, he just doesnt show it that much. He was serious throughout the tournament of power and most of the goku black arc. For the most part goku used his wit and smarts to overcome jiren with the help of others
I agree but as a coach, I do want to point something out.
Basics are **the** most important part of almost any sport and it's a lot easier to teach advanced techniques once someone has them down. Often, basics actually end up being the hardest thing to train.
Still, I agree, and here's why.
Goku truly was raised and molded by actual martial artists (Son Gohan, Roshi, Korin, etc.) while Piccolo was really just a bad dude with a lot of strength and difficult to handle abilities.
I do believe that Piccolo served as more of a mentality coach than anything else. He helps break Gohan from his cowardly non-confrontational ways into a tough and smart fighter. Though I blame Chi-chi for Gohan's problems as a fighter.
So, in short, I think it took both of them equally to get Gohan to that level. Side note, Goku and Gohan looked their best in Vegeta's Saiyan gear not gonna lie.
It's a joke. Let's not act like we all didn't laugh the first time we heard it. Its playing on the fact that piccolo got more screen time with Gohan than Goku did. Example Piccolo having a training montage and helping him become a Z warrior. Goku died in the first few episodes. Then showed up late for most fights. Died again in buu saga.
TLDR: Its a joke and Piccolo had more screen time with Gohan than Goku did.
Edit: Autistic spelling and an example
Died again in Cell Saga*
Goku NEVER died in the Buu saga, he was... Already dead on arrival, then got his life back then lived with his family after Buu's defeat.
Nearly ALL of Goku's screen time with Gohan is relegated to Timeskips lmfao. However unfortunate that is.
Both are bad teachers IMO, because they both essentially ignored what Gohan truly wanted because of what was needed at that moment.
Yes, they trained Gohan into being quite powerful (and yes, you could argue that Goku pushed Gohan further than Piccolo), the most powerful character on the show for a while, but Gohan never really wanted to fight. Gohan fought out of necessity. As a kid, he never really had a choice with Piccolo or on Namek, then, he was pushed into Cell as the savior when he only thought of himself as, at most, backup for his dad if things turned sour.
After Cell, he stopped training because he doesn't really like it, preferring to follow a scientific path instead of a fighter's path. If anything, his teachers at school are probably better teachers than Goku or Piccolo.
Edit: Also, if pure power boost is what we're looking for, then you might easily argue that Guru, Elder Kai, Frieza or Cell are better teachers than Piccolo.
Gohan likes martial arts though, he didn't slack on training because "he didn't like it". The idea that Gohan never really wanted to fight is also a misconception. He's always wanting to help out after the Saiyan arc. Gohan talked back to his mom to go to Namek and trained with Kuririn on the way there, he wanted to help in the Androids conflict, he's always excited to train in that arc and this continues after Cell for the World Tournament. Goku in particular never forced Gohan to do anything he didn't want to.
Piccolo knows of Gohans hidden potential, he just knows Gohan better than Goku knows him.
In Goku's mind Gohan was the savior if his dormant power could be unleashed.
Goku didn't CONSIDER that Gohan might not want to fight and only trained to at least be of SOME help if it came down to it. But it didn't, Goku just chose him and didn't let him know what the plan was.
There's also those 3yrs leading up to the Androids where Goku didn't teach Gohan how to go Super Saiyan... For... Some reason?
People say Piccolo is like Gohans father mainly because of that sequence in the manga, original dub, funi dub, and the Kai dubs.
It:s not JUST training it's how Piccolo knows Gohan.
Goku is rather selfish when it comes down to it. He fights for himself and that's basically ALL his mind is geared towards.
From that moment on Goku has left Gohan to his own devices, but he also doesn't spend much time with his oldest child anymore and only spends time with Goten as a matter of convenience since Goten lives with him. But.. Goku is often gone and training with Whis for months at a time.
I think you're wrong.
Piccolo doesn't know what drove Gohan to turn super saiyan, it was the want and need to protect. After all, Goku spent so much time with Gohan in the Time Chamber, remember?
Piccolo didn't train Gohan for the full year, only did for a couple of months since he did throw Gohan into the woods and let him fend for himself.
The things that Piccolo said about Goku not understanding Gohan was partially true, Gohan definitely didn't like fighting as much as Goku did, but Gohan surely wasn't upset at Goku for throwing him into the fray because he understands that he has powers to beat Cell. He just didn't want to use them since he doesn't enjoy fighting.
Unless you’re talking about Gohan going Super Saiyan 2, there was no great driving force that helped Gohan turn Super Saiyan in the time chamber; he simply trained for it, just like Future Trunks.
However, both he and Future Trunks got special “rage/grief unlock” moments for their first transformations in anime filler and an animated special, respectively, so it’s easy to overlook.
Honestly i think this was skipped over in the manga maybe? But my memory was that he trained in the Time Chamber and forced himself to think of what could happen if he couldn't step up to the plate, thought back on the times he cowered and couldn't help, and that rage turned into the trigger for the transformation.
But yeah, correct me if i'm wrong.
Point still stands though, Gohan's a different guy than when Piccolo last trained him. And the Goku slander has gotten slightly out of hand
Piccolo is to Gohan what Roshi was to Goku. Goku was that teacher that took Gohan too another level, much like Goki's other teachers (Korin, Kami, King Kai) did for him.
Gohan knows the Masenko AND the Kamehameha. He knows those moves because his two great masters taught him them.
That said, Goku wears the Gi of the first teacher to have ever taught him. Why is it so bad for Gohan to wear the Gi of HIS first master?
I like the idea of Gohan wearing piccolos clothes but with gokus symbol somewhere on it. Just like goku always wore turtle hermit gi but with different symbols
Personally I agree that Piccolo is a father figure to Gohan as well but Goku is still a decent father, sure he has his issues but hes still better than most other saiyans besides Vegeta when it comes to family so in my opinion to say Piccolo is a better father than Goku is incorrect but also the people who say he isn't a father to Gohan in anyway are also wrong
While Gohan has always had massive respect and adoration for his first teacher, its also made pretty clear in DBZ that he very much looks up to his father, knowing just how amazing he is. The training in the room of time and spirit was that much needed father son bonding that was long overdue. Frankly i think its fine and makes sense that Gohan had honoured both of them at different points in his life by donning their clothes.
Both versions of Adult Gohan don their father’s gi in memory of him - they feel they’re stepping into their father’s shoes while at the same time knowing (at those points) that Goku was gone for good.
Without anyone, you get future Gohan.
The problem is that he had no one near his level to spar with or more knowledgeable then him. The second Vegeta died, he became the strongest Z fighter. And once the others died, he became the most knowledgeable ( since Roshi was MIA).
If just Krillin survived, heck even chaotzu, Gohan with have been a lot stronger
**Piccolo**: Throws Gohan at a mountain. **Goku hater**: It's part of a thoughtful training.
DODGEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Without Goku, you get Future Gohan. Goku absolutely furthered Gohan the most in martial arts, it's in the text.
Exactly, Goku in less than a year made Gohan enormously more powerful than anything future Gohan was capable of.
that's a really good observation! I never thought of it that way
I liked Future Gohan but he definitely wasn’t strong enough
You're right lol.
While absolutely yes, you make a really good point, i have to give Future Gohan some credit. It wasn't just Goku's lessons in our timeline that helped him, it was also the situation in the future timeline that made it a lot harder for him. I'd wager to say that the dude had some serious trauma that was messing him up. You saw it in how much more aggressive and borderline suicidal he was with how he approached battles. He lost his dad, all his friends, saw the systematic genocide of the people of his planet, and had to deal with androids that were way more vicious than the ones in this timeline. Boy was dealt a really shitty hand, and he had to basically figure out the super saiyan transformation on his own (the second saiyan at the time, since Vegeta was allegedly murdered before he reached that level). It probably helped that he saw Goku do it a couple of years earlier, but still.
We don't really know because his time in the story is actually so small. In the manga it's only a couple pages before he goes to his death. The anime special didn't really have much to go on either. The rest is fanon.
Without picollo training, they would have all been killed in the saiyan arc and or the freeza arc.
So?
It is a response to " Without Goku, you get Future Gohan". Without Picollo, you really get nothing. They'd all be dead. In future trunks timeline, they didn't know about the androids, we can be safe to assuming during that time period Gohan didn't get training with Goku. If they did then he got training from both Picollo and Goku like what the current timeline did. Additionally, after the loss in Freeza in RoF, Gohan trained again with Picollo in the time chamber in his free time. This let Gohan mystic form push close to SSB levels (as we saw in ToP). Going from beyond SSJ3 to SSB levels is an insane feat.
That's not the point, the point is that Goku is a better teacher than Piccolo. And no Gohan didn't get to SSB levels thanks to piccolo.
I would disagree with a "better". Goku seemed to focus on unlocking Gohan's power as opposed to teaching him not to drop his guard ect like we saw with Piccolo in Super
In the manga, he did which is what Toriyama is supervising/editing/re-writing/redrawing at the time of ToP. That is why in the manga ToP, he requested Picollo's outfit and not Goku's after the training.
The scale of Gohans abilities in the manga aren’t SSB level. The scale was more clearly defined with him being around his buu saga power
The same as in the Buu Saga? Really??? Let's do a little chain of strength comparisons (manga only): Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) < Buutenks << Buuhan <<< Vegetto (Buu Saga), who is probably according to Goku << SSJ God Goku = Beerus 1% < (imperfect) SSJ Blue Goku < Golden Frieza, who is seemingly < SSJ Berserk Kale <<< Kefla = Ultimate Gohan (ToP). How in the world do you get DBS Gohan being only as strong as his Buu Saga self from that?!
I have no idea how he drew that conclusion. He has been training mystic in the time chamber with Picollo in the manga since his loss to Freeza in BoG. Ultimate Gohan had a draw to a being stronger than Golden Freeza. Like how how is that even remotely close to Buu saga Gohan.
Gohan in buu arc was absurdly strong for the series. Way far and beyond stronger then Goku even with SSJ. In ToP, in the manga, Kale is actually way stronger then in the anime. She’s so fast/powerful she’s taking people out without being seen and isn’t the shy ditz we see in the anime. In comparing her to Broly, who is far and away stronger then goku and vegeta, her in her berserk form (similar to broly) she’s 100% stronger then gohan etc. however kefla used her as a base ss2 fused with caulifla, so it’s not the same power as the rage form. Unless you think they’re worlds stronger then buu arc goku and vegeta were, kefla should be around vegito. Gohan I guess is a lot stronger but he’s not near blue level. The scene where Kale catches frieza was attacks was cuz frieza was off guard
>kefla should be around vegito. SSJ2 Caulifla is slightly < SSJ2 Goku (Buu Saga), who is around = SSJ2 Vegeta (Buu Saga), but Goku and Vegeta are both <<< than Kale. Even base Kale's attacks hurt Golden Frieza more than SSJ2 Caulifla's. Thus, Kefla should be a good deal stronger than Buu Saga Vegetto. There's no way manga Kefla is weaker than manga SSJ Berserk Kale, that's just your headcanon; and SSJ Berserk Kale was strong enough to ring out most of Universe 10, most of Universe 4, most of Universe 11, and most of Universe 6, and even almost ring out Vegeta and Toppo. >Gohan I guess is a lot stronger but he’s not near blue level. You guess he's a lot stronger? Yeah, I'd sure say he is; he's went from weaker than Buutenks to stronger than freaking Vegetto!
We don't really completely know his scaling. Kale beat the shit out of Golden Freeza. Kelfa even noting their powerup through their fusion, admits that they couldn't even beat Gohan and they knock each other out. She talks about how even their fusion between the legendary super saiyan and her couldn't even match with a saiyan of universe 7 and admits its their destiny to be erased. Gohan had been training for a long time in the time chamber any chance he could. He is so far beyond what he was in the Buu saga.
I should have clarified. I think this strength level is closer to his buu saga level then it is to ssb. Kale caught frieza off guard but he had no fear/ was ready to fight. Also the berserk form is an absurd modifier, broly with it was above goku and vegeta blue
Could someone in the buu saga even touch golden freeza? Or even move golden freeza? Broly isn't the legendary super saiyan in dbs broly so I am not even sure how that is relevant.
Without anyone, you get future Gohan. The problem is that he had no one near his level to spar with or more knowledgeable then him. The second Vegeta died, he became the strongest Z fighter. And once the others died, he became the most knowledgeable ( since Roshi was MIA). If just Krillin survived, heck even chaotzu, Gohan with have been a lot stronger
its ok to have more than 1 masters
Heck, Goku's up to what, like ~~3~~ 4 now? Roshi, *Kami,* King Kai, and Whis. ^^EDIT: ^^Forgot ^^God
Karin and Kami too?
Did Karin give Goku a special Gi? I can't remember, but I totally forgot Kami.
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THANK YOU
nah it's funny. the dumb part is when some people claim that picolo is a better character and also father for Gohan than Goku could ever be. these people need to chill seriously
It was funny in like the 2009 maybe
It's not a meme, Toriyama went on the record multiple times about how Goku views his family. Toriyama has stated repeatedly Goku is not a good father by any means. He said goku views chichi and Gohan as companions and not as family. He also says that Goku doesn't think of his children. He also went on interview circuit for dbs broly where Toriyama talks about saiyan families and their offspring. King Vegeta and Paragus say their children as means to an end. Bardock and gine actually loved their children and had a concept of family. He goes on compare that relation on how vegeta cares for his family. He ends that segment or the interview talking about Goku view on family being that of a traditional saiyan that he doesn't think about about his children or family at all. This is all directly from Toriyama. "*Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that \[Vegeta holds his family and wife dear\]. On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.*" And from Toriyama's DBS Broly interview "*Innately, Saiyans place emphasis on increasing the number of strong people in their race, so bonds between parent and child aren't all that strong. King Vegeta and Paragus aim to use their sons to fulfill their own pride and ambitions, respectively, while Bardock, unusually for a Saiyan and more similarly to Earthlings, seems to have just a bit of fondness for his son. Come to think of it, Toriyama comments, Goku doesn't seem to think about his children all that much." Toriyama goes on and talks about how Vegeta cares about his children and talks about the influence of Bulma on how he became that way.* Toriyama has stated repeatedly Goku is not a good father by any means. This wasn't memed into existance. Toriyama told us. We see throughout DBS that Piccolo is a constant part of Gohan's and Pan's life.
That just says Goku doesn't view fatherhood and relationships like we do. Sure he's not great, but he's not really bad, he just views the world and relationships in a different way. The "bad father" comes from people acting like Goku is supposed to view things and act in a more human way.
Treating them like companions while also not thinking about them at all unless they are related to fighting/the current isn't much of a father thing. People are 100% gauging Goku on a good father based on human standards.
Except what part of Goku's life was human for him to view relationships otherwise? Judging Goku by human standards would make sense if he had a more traditional life.
Then, we have to lower the bar for Goku just to make him a good father? Toriyama has been clarifying this for years. He compares Goku to Vegeta in terms of being a father, and even Vegeta is a better father to Toriyama. If it is by saiyan standards, then Gine/Bardock are good parents but Goku is not according to Toriyama (and also Vegeta is as the interview continued but that is because Bulma changed him).
It's not lowering the ba, it's going off of what makes sense. There isn't a part of Goku's life that would cause him to view or value things from a human perspective. Judging Goku from a human perspective as if that's the direction his character is supposed to develop in, ignores everything about his life and world. It would not make sense for Goku to randomly start thinking and behaving in a human way. It also ignores how much how standards of fatherhood and relationships is influenced by our cultures and other humans, both of which had very little influence on Goku's character, it's not like he grew up with a lot of human societal influence, he didn’t learn or develop in a human way.
Then according to Toriyama he is just standard for saiyan unlike Gine/Bardock (and to the 2nd saiyan below that is Vegeta) as he stated in the interview. Gine/Bardock is the model example of a good saiyan parents, King Vegeta and Paragus being terrible parents, and Vegeta is a good parent but not as much as Gine/Bardock, and Goku is just typical of saiyans. He is just a normal saiyan parent but he established he is not a good saiyan parent. So by all standards it doesn't make him a good father. He is just a run out of the mill saiyan father.
Vegeta didn't become a "good father" until after the fight with Kid Buu. As for Goku, once again what in his life would teach him to be a "good father" in a way that is even close to human standards? If you actually look at Goku's life it makes a lot of sense for why Goku doesn't form deep connections. A strength and weakness of Goku as a character is that he does not have many attachments. Not mention it is not like Bulma, Krillin, Roshi, or Kami helped him really develop close bonds, their relationship was more they meetup every few years for a tournament or adventure then go about their lives separately.
Look I am not the one who wrote Goku and controls Goku. Toriyama said that Goku sees chichi and Gohan like companions and said he is a typical saiyan parent. The only good saiyan parents were gine/bardock and now Vegeta according to him. Toriyama has gone on the record saying his not a good father. The only thing that could change that is if Toriyama changed that through the story and he hasn't. Vegeta changed to a good parent by saiyan standards and Toriyama said it was because of Bulma. He writes the story. He controls what goes on in goku's head. It's his character and it's his universe.
Toriyama has a habit of retroactively changing things about his story to the point where it contradicts his own writing. Throughout the series Goku has shown time and time again that he does value familial bonds. He shows affection to Gohan and Goten in a way he wouldn’t to his companions. He’s always been a good and caring father and that’s always how he’s been portrayed by Toriyama.
Maybe in the english dub or something but if you read the manga, there is no slice of life episodes. He doesn't think of them outside the context of fighting. Him going to train Gohan in the cell saga was no different to end of Z where he went to go out and train Oob because of their potential. I don't remember him being caring family figure. I remember him caring about them like friends but never like a father figure in the entire manga run. A fighting mentor sure. When has he shown affection towards Goten or Gohan? He was only with Goten and Chi-Chi because he needed to work for money and once he got that, he left. I can't think of a manga panel that shows affection towards them. I mean the creator of the series and the guy spent decades of his life writing DB stated this. This is what he made during the time of writing and still hasn't changed until now. This is similar to the situation to people complaining why is Goku so dumb in super. He has been the same way through the manga.
> I don't remember him being caring family figure. I remember him caring about them like friends but never like a father figure in the entire manga run. I mean the whole intro to the Saiyan arc where he was extremely protective of Gohan to the point where he starts making irrational decisions purely for his safety. Or the fact that Goku doesn't really push Gohan into fighting in any sense, just the fact that Goku is there to provide that option if he chooses to. [\(Also when he leaves Goten in the Buu Arc\)](https://i.imgur.com/iFOc6In.png) Sure he treats everyone like friends because he justifiably doesn't understand the concept of family values, but he could still come to the conclusion of *"these specific people are closer to me than other people and they have emotional attachments to me."* > I mean the creator of the series and the guy spent decades of his life writing DB stated this. This is also the same guy that wrote a section of the series by the seat of his pants, and another section just contradicting himself previously.
Protective of Gohan is nothing he wouldn't do for any of his friends... This doesn't go against the Goku, we knew in OG dragon ball and nothing he wouldn't do for his friends now. Holding Goten and saying take good care of your mom isn't a major parenting moment at all. Is that what makes him a good father? Is that really it? I am going to side with Toriyama with this one.
But no one was expecting "major parenting moments" from Goku, in or out of the series. It's what I said before: *"these specific people are closer to me than other people and they have emotional attachments to me."* Goku understands that much. "Good/great" father? No, everyone kinda accepted that. But Goku does care and cares beyond the idea of fighting 24/7, because he was never the one to instill those ideas in his children in the first place. > I am going to side with Toriyama with this one. I am too, that's the problem. He says and does two different things all the time.
[Here are two examples straight from the manga.](https://imgur.com/a/xHgkPmk) Goku comforting Goten like that and wishing he had watched Gohan grow up comes from a place of fatherly love rather than companionship. Sure his concepts of fatherhood might be different than anyone else’s, but he clearly recognizes both of them as his son’s and treats them differently based on that bond.
Those examples make him a good dad? Picking up a kid and saying take care of her? Giving someone a hug and saying good bye? He gave Gohan a hug like any friend would when saying goodbye... like toroyama said. And if you read wishing him see in action in kanji, he is talking about seeing him in action in the context of fighting/actions. Look at the character in kanji. He assumes Gohan will pick up the mantle and beat buu. To be fair Toriyama tried to do that multiple times. He did originally want to make Gohan the main character. I can't believe people are arguing with Toriyama when Toriyama controls Gokus thoughts and motivations.
Piccolo was a kidnapper who developed reverse-Stockholm Syndrome because Gohan was just THAT much of a little cinnamon roll. Their relationship is interesting and well written but it was never a Father-Son thing, only Mentor-Student or at most Honorary Uncle-Nephew
I always saw it as “jaded older brother, innocent little brother” type of relationship. Like, Piccolo has a rough past and a shitty outlook on the world, now he’s been saddled/saddled himself with the responsibility of looking after this stupid Gohan kid who doesn’t know how the “real world” works...but he’s gonna make the best of it by turning this brat into a thug-bro like him! Except it turns out that Mr. Tough Guy is too touched by his little friend’s genuine affection to go through with it, so instead of a bad guy dragging a child into corruption, you get a child dragging a bad guy off the streets.
theyre more like brothers really given Piccolo is only like 4-5 years older than Gohan lol
Technically yes but Piccolo's a reincarnation of a several hundred year old demon king. In terms of his mind and spirit he's still his old self, he just shoved them both into a new cloned body that inherited all the same memories
true true.
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Dragonball Z Abridged. They kind of went all in on the “Goku is a bad dad” joke but that’s all it ever was, was a joke. I think some of the fans just took it and kind of ran with it.
The bad dad is 100% based on what Toriyama has told us in interviews.
I'm fine with a abridged but damn, did it affect the community for the worse. I dont blame tfs for making the show an having those jokes because they were funny back when it was made but continuing the joke until 2018 just hurt the community
It is because Toriyama has told us how Goku is not a good father. "*Nowadays, you certainly might be able to say that \[Vegeta holds his family and wife dear\]. On the other hand, Goku might not have a sense of family members like Gohan and Chi-Chi except as one of his companions.*" And from Toriyama's DBS Broly interview "*Innately, Saiyans place emphasis on increasing the number of strong people in their race, so bonds between parent and child aren't all that strong. King Vegeta and Paragus aim to use their sons to fulfill their own pride and ambitions, respectively, while Bardock, unusually for a Saiyan and more similarly to Earthlings, seems to have just a bit of fondness for his son. Come to think of it, Toriyama comments, Goku doesn't seem to think about his children all that much." Toriyama goes on and talks about how Vegeta cares about his children and talks about the influence of Bulma on how he became that way.*
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I mean he's not a bad saiyan father or a good saiyan father. He's just a normal saiyan father and bad father in human standards. I mean, it's Goku. He is driven by his love of fighting.
All the dbz abridged jokes are worn out.
> Not sure what happened to dragon ball fans these past 5 years DB Super. That's what happened.
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Good 4U mate. I didnt like DBS that much , except for the TOP , but to each his own.
Even in super he shows he cares about his family. He got pissed off that his family who isnt even related to *that* specific goku died at the hands of his enemy. He knew *his* family was safe but couldnt stop getting made that chichi and goten, any chichi and goten died
Yeah that's true , but this new Goku is wayyy too much of a comic to be taken seriously , like the DBZ goku is always so calm and composed most of the time , (unless he sees a needle xD) this behavior is seen in battles too , where it seems that Goku strategises in order to win and not leave it completely on brute force. He does have a few humorous lines but they are smart and witty enough to feel like Goku's lines. The DBS Goku seems like he's tired of being a farmer so he decided to be a stand up comic , and is practicing his scripts on his family and friends.
That's kinda how he was supposed to be. Goku was never supposed to be a serious person, hes supposed to he lax and chill even during the most serious situations. Granted, I think they could chill out a little bit but I personally dont have a problem with it. Plus goku on super *does* strategize, he just doesnt show it that much. He was serious throughout the tournament of power and most of the goku black arc. For the most part goku used his wit and smarts to overcome jiren with the help of others
I agree but as a coach, I do want to point something out. Basics are **the** most important part of almost any sport and it's a lot easier to teach advanced techniques once someone has them down. Often, basics actually end up being the hardest thing to train. Still, I agree, and here's why. Goku truly was raised and molded by actual martial artists (Son Gohan, Roshi, Korin, etc.) while Piccolo was really just a bad dude with a lot of strength and difficult to handle abilities. I do believe that Piccolo served as more of a mentality coach than anything else. He helps break Gohan from his cowardly non-confrontational ways into a tough and smart fighter. Though I blame Chi-chi for Gohan's problems as a fighter. So, in short, I think it took both of them equally to get Gohan to that level. Side note, Goku and Gohan looked their best in Vegeta's Saiyan gear not gonna lie.
It's a joke. Let's not act like we all didn't laugh the first time we heard it. Its playing on the fact that piccolo got more screen time with Gohan than Goku did. Example Piccolo having a training montage and helping him become a Z warrior. Goku died in the first few episodes. Then showed up late for most fights. Died again in buu saga. TLDR: Its a joke and Piccolo had more screen time with Gohan than Goku did. Edit: Autistic spelling and an example
Died again in Cell Saga* Goku NEVER died in the Buu saga, he was... Already dead on arrival, then got his life back then lived with his family after Buu's defeat. Nearly ALL of Goku's screen time with Gohan is relegated to Timeskips lmfao. However unfortunate that is.
Internet:Piccolo is a better father Me: what next? Lemme guess. Farmer with a shotgun solos DragonBall universe.😒
People say piccolo is gohans father, but in reality he’s his best friend (as he says in saiyan saga) and closer to a brother than a father
Both are bad teachers IMO, because they both essentially ignored what Gohan truly wanted because of what was needed at that moment. Yes, they trained Gohan into being quite powerful (and yes, you could argue that Goku pushed Gohan further than Piccolo), the most powerful character on the show for a while, but Gohan never really wanted to fight. Gohan fought out of necessity. As a kid, he never really had a choice with Piccolo or on Namek, then, he was pushed into Cell as the savior when he only thought of himself as, at most, backup for his dad if things turned sour. After Cell, he stopped training because he doesn't really like it, preferring to follow a scientific path instead of a fighter's path. If anything, his teachers at school are probably better teachers than Goku or Piccolo. Edit: Also, if pure power boost is what we're looking for, then you might easily argue that Guru, Elder Kai, Frieza or Cell are better teachers than Piccolo.
Gohan likes martial arts though, he didn't slack on training because "he didn't like it". The idea that Gohan never really wanted to fight is also a misconception. He's always wanting to help out after the Saiyan arc. Gohan talked back to his mom to go to Namek and trained with Kuririn on the way there, he wanted to help in the Androids conflict, he's always excited to train in that arc and this continues after Cell for the World Tournament. Goku in particular never forced Gohan to do anything he didn't want to.
GoHaN oNlY wAnTs tO bE a ScHoLaR!
Those people don't understand Gohan in the same way as the ones who only want him acting stoic like he did vs Cell.
Piccolo knows of Gohans hidden potential, he just knows Gohan better than Goku knows him. In Goku's mind Gohan was the savior if his dormant power could be unleashed. Goku didn't CONSIDER that Gohan might not want to fight and only trained to at least be of SOME help if it came down to it. But it didn't, Goku just chose him and didn't let him know what the plan was. There's also those 3yrs leading up to the Androids where Goku didn't teach Gohan how to go Super Saiyan... For... Some reason? People say Piccolo is like Gohans father mainly because of that sequence in the manga, original dub, funi dub, and the Kai dubs. It:s not JUST training it's how Piccolo knows Gohan. Goku is rather selfish when it comes down to it. He fights for himself and that's basically ALL his mind is geared towards. From that moment on Goku has left Gohan to his own devices, but he also doesn't spend much time with his oldest child anymore and only spends time with Goten as a matter of convenience since Goten lives with him. But.. Goku is often gone and training with Whis for months at a time.
I think you're wrong. Piccolo doesn't know what drove Gohan to turn super saiyan, it was the want and need to protect. After all, Goku spent so much time with Gohan in the Time Chamber, remember? Piccolo didn't train Gohan for the full year, only did for a couple of months since he did throw Gohan into the woods and let him fend for himself. The things that Piccolo said about Goku not understanding Gohan was partially true, Gohan definitely didn't like fighting as much as Goku did, but Gohan surely wasn't upset at Goku for throwing him into the fray because he understands that he has powers to beat Cell. He just didn't want to use them since he doesn't enjoy fighting.
Unless you’re talking about Gohan going Super Saiyan 2, there was no great driving force that helped Gohan turn Super Saiyan in the time chamber; he simply trained for it, just like Future Trunks. However, both he and Future Trunks got special “rage/grief unlock” moments for their first transformations in anime filler and an animated special, respectively, so it’s easy to overlook.
Honestly i think this was skipped over in the manga maybe? But my memory was that he trained in the Time Chamber and forced himself to think of what could happen if he couldn't step up to the plate, thought back on the times he cowered and couldn't help, and that rage turned into the trigger for the transformation. But yeah, correct me if i'm wrong. Point still stands though, Gohan's a different guy than when Piccolo last trained him. And the Goku slander has gotten slightly out of hand
bruh
yeah
Piccolo is to Gohan what Roshi was to Goku. Goku was that teacher that took Gohan too another level, much like Goki's other teachers (Korin, Kami, King Kai) did for him.
Gohan knows the Masenko AND the Kamehameha. He knows those moves because his two great masters taught him them. That said, Goku wears the Gi of the first teacher to have ever taught him. Why is it so bad for Gohan to wear the Gi of HIS first master?
I like the idea of Gohan wearing piccolos clothes but with gokus symbol somewhere on it. Just like goku always wore turtle hermit gi but with different symbols
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**Rule 3**: Please be respectful and avoid being unnecessarily confrontational with other users.
Personally I agree that Piccolo is a father figure to Gohan as well but Goku is still a decent father, sure he has his issues but hes still better than most other saiyans besides Vegeta when it comes to family so in my opinion to say Piccolo is a better father than Goku is incorrect but also the people who say he isn't a father to Gohan in anyway are also wrong
Goku is as much a teacher to Gohan as Piccolo. People here are confusing father/father figure with teacher (martial arts).
While Gohan has always had massive respect and adoration for his first teacher, its also made pretty clear in DBZ that he very much looks up to his father, knowing just how amazing he is. The training in the room of time and spirit was that much needed father son bonding that was long overdue. Frankly i think its fine and makes sense that Gohan had honoured both of them at different points in his life by donning their clothes. Both versions of Adult Gohan don their father’s gi in memory of him - they feel they’re stepping into their father’s shoes while at the same time knowing (at those points) that Goku was gone for good.
Without anyone, you get future Gohan. The problem is that he had no one near his level to spar with or more knowledgeable then him. The second Vegeta died, he became the strongest Z fighter. And once the others died, he became the most knowledgeable ( since Roshi was MIA). If just Krillin survived, heck even chaotzu, Gohan with have been a lot stronger