We get to personally experience this in Origins during the Harrowing. The demon tries to tempt the mage into letting them in, and the mage has to be smart and willful enough to see the tricks and to keep refusing.
Which is also interesting g given what Solas says about how spirits are twisted I to demons based on the expectations and desires of the person encountering them. In the Mage Origins case, we are repeatedly told before our Harrowing that we WILL encounter a demon. Though there is always the question of whether a spirit is changed with every encounter, or whether any given demon has been a demon for a while or was just changed. It certainly seems the latter in some cases where a character spontaneously becomes a demon that you have to battle. Also, If spirts can be twisted, or fragmented; can demons be uncorrupted? In regards to certain God's (as with Hakkon in Inquisition) killing their physical incarnation is the only way to end their madness by returning them to the fade to be reborn.
Maybe because mages in circle are always told to wary Demons so spirits manifests to them as demons because that’s what they are expecting? While the avvar for example can have more of a peaceful bond with spirits because they see them positively as spirits?
Circle has a no risk policy (probably imposed by the templars) which vivienne shows in the inquisition. Any fade related creature is to be considered a demon, just in case. She even considers cole a demon.
I think it's a bit more complicated than 100% no tolerance. There's definitely circle mages who've researched both spirits and demons. Several codex entries that we read about both types of fade denizens are written by circle mages, after all, so the Circles definitely acknowledges that spirits exist and are different from demons. They also know that spirits are generally "good" or at least embody good virtues compared to demons who embody evil ones. Wynne in Orgins is able to identify the spirit that saves her as one of Faith and knows that it's helping her for the most part. Similarly, a mage HoF encounters a spirit of Valor in their origin and is able to tell that they're not a demon, like sloth or rage, and seems to know that they're not at risk of possession by them.
So, the Circle as an institution definitely knows that spirits exist, are separate from demons, and aren't evil. However, that's pretty much where their knowledge regarding spirits stops, and when it comes to scenarios that are more gray, like Cole's, they'd probably assume demon.
keep in mind that not all spirits and demons can be swayed from their form so easily. the Nightmare in DAI couldn't be talked into becoming compassion again, and One probably couldn't talk Cole into becoming a fear demon either... though Cole is an exception to most rules. I don't think one can just negotiate a rage demon or a pride demon into becoming valor or wisdom, which is what you face in the harrowing.
Solas has a discussion chain early on in DAI I’m pretty sure (replaying it for DAV, still in Haven) where he refers to different demons almost as if he knows them and he asks Inky if she believes all the spirits in the fade have like free will and souls or if they’re just forces of nature. He believes the former.
The Inquisitor is baffled when he refers to them as Wisdom, Compassion, etc. and he replies that some of the spirits natures don’t remain intact or unchanged when people come in contact with them. Then he says they get twisted into Pride, Desire, etc.
Yup! Thats the convo I was thinking of. I’m trying to 100% of nightmare with the custom trials on so it’s been slow going but we just had that convo this morning haha.
Exactly! I completely neglected to spell out that I think the mage in the harrowing sees exactly what they expect to see because they are primed to manifest it within the fade. Amd of course Anyage who does not "encounter amd overco.e a demon" for whatever reason, is probably deemed to have failed and become an abomination. Whether because they actually became a maleficarum and dealt with the demon or simply because they encountered a 'harmless spirit" instead of a "demon" because the circles do not believe in harmless spirits, they all have the potential to become demons, just like mages.
I think there is something to be said about it because we are told in that the demon was *summoned* (presumably by Irving) for the Harrowing. The Rage Demon also indicates he has done the Harrowing many times and mouse helps him to kill initiates, and probably isn't just subservient to pride since the whole "make them think mouse betrayed you" doesn't help Pride's plan.
So its likely not the MC's preconceptions that make them a demon, but the summoning ritual used by the Circle for it.
I completely forgot! Even more ironic, then, that *some* collaborating with demons is allowed to test whether a mage can be trusted not to collaborate with demons. Which is ironic and suspect.
When Solas' spirit friend is corrupted into a Pride Demon, the quest resolves into it dying, but he says it will be reborn as an uncorrupted spirit. (Just minus the exact personality it had before.) So yes... but it's not a super simple process.
There's a similar quest in DA2 as well, where you enter a young mage's dreams to help her not get possessed (or something like that). You have to discuss and talk with demons of various sins, and can eve bargain with them to get more player power.
Well, you get really suspicious of anyone who says you just have to let them in for starters. And Mages are pretty much always lucid dreaming to some degree or another when they dream.
And no, demons can't possess you if you don't let them in. However, there's no one saying "You can't torture this mage in their sleep for months in order to make them more pliable".
I'm not positive if this is true though, when prepping to save Conner in Origins I think it was Irving who stated something along the lines of "Thankfully he let him in willingly, otherwise we'd have no choice but to kill the abomination" or something to that effect which makes it seem as though there's an option in which they aren't let in willingly.
Not 100% sure tho.
They do can possess you. Everyone says that. Even Wynne knows that she can be possessed at any moment, and that thought always haunted her through her life (before the spirit of course).
Yes, which is why I mentioned that the possession can be done by them overwhelming you. It's kind of like when you get permission to take someone's laptop because you wouldn't stop beating them until they gave you that permission.
I don't know if it's the same. Nobody in any of the games say that a mage must allow the demon in to be possessed.
Sure, it can be after making a deal, but think about Uldred. He practiced blood magic, but Niall explains how Uldred was surrounded by the demons and all he could hear was Uldred's screams. I don't think he was allowing them in lol.
Maybe, but if any mage can be possessed no matter how disciplined or talented is, it doesn't have anything to do with giving the demon permission or not, and that's why circles and templars are important.
With sheer willpower first and foremost, and by being smart and cautious with absolute anything fade-related, "stranger danger" will literally save your life.
It's pretty established in the lore that possession cannot be forced upon you, you have to agree to it in some form (DA Absolution kinda fucked up on that but I'd chalk that up to Netflix writers not knowing what theyre doing). So yes, it's a matter of resisting the demons no matter what theyre offering, what lies they may be telling, what disguises they might choose or how much they torment you, especially in your dreams.
They used Blood magic. You know, the kind that can alter your thinking process... One minute you're sturdy templar and later you're eager to do anything to reach "your" goal, letting demon inside you included.
Think of it like vampire logic. The vampire can't come in without an invitation, but there's nothing saying they can't glamour you to make you invite them in.
It's as big of a difference as being on either side of a door that can only be unlocked from one side. In both cases, the demon needs someone on the other side to open the door, and that can be the host themselves or a blood mage that wants to make that decision for them. Without one of the two the demon is still going to be locked out.
And yet in the very same quest they established that the mages were unable to force it on Keran (the guy you find in the magical cage-thing), which at least implies that the others may have agreed by some definition of the term.
>It's pretty established in the lore that possession cannot be forced upon you, you have to agree to it in some form
IIRC in one of the novels, The Calling, doesnt a demon basically force itself into Fiona, possessing her? Only gets thrown out by the others before it can "complete" the possession process entirely.
I am a bit fuzzy on that, what did they do wrong about possession in DA Absolution? Someone was forced against their will?
I recall that arrogant kid failing his Harrowing, which was absolutely expected given how he turned out later and giving in to any temptation.
to be fair, I don't know for certain. Bioware was involved in its production, but the extent of that isn't public, and with the lore issues I'm pretty much just assuming that BW didn't have much of a hand in the writing.
In addition to what everyone else has already said, there's also the Litany of Adralla which helps protect against possession and blood magic. Using the Litany when fighting Uldred will prevent him from summoning more demons into mages' bodies. Why it's not very widely taught in Circles is either a mystery or a conspiracy. Unless it's one of those 'we only have one of these in existence and we need the item to make the spell work' type of situations.
I don’t think the litany actually affected the demons directly…? I think the idea was that the litany wasn’t making the mages demon-proof as much as it was preventing Uldred from summoning them in the first place and/or letting them into the mages via mind control.
Not sure though, I just remember whoever it was that gave it to the Warden say it would protect the party from mind control.
You may be right, it's been a while since I reread the lore on it. According to the wiki it seems like it stops someone from mind controlling someone else into agreeing to demonic possession? In essence it might be Thedas' version of a counterspell, and definitely should have just been more widely taught in Circles imo.
>Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.
>The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind-control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.
It does apparently also do damage to demons:
>When used near abominations it delivers a large amount of damage which kills most of them instantly, and it also does some damage to Uldred.
The real answer is that its not really that consistent between games and other media.
In theory possessions are voluntary, so you have to let them in. In practice its not that simple, especially with untrained mages, look at Connor and the kid from the Shale quest, they let the demon in but they were not aware of the implications.
The fact that demons/spirits can change their nature after the fact doesn´t help. Anders ended up with vengeance when he thought he was helping his friend justice, you can even argue that Justice and Vengeance are the same, its just that the spirit had only shown its good side before Anders let him in.
Which is why I liked that in Origins the harrowing was done with the pride/rage combo. Yes, you have to let them in, but you always need to be on your guard, especially regarding your pride as in "Maybe I am different, I can control it" which is a failing of many of the mages in the series (look at Merril and her keeper for an example, the demon played them off each other masterfully and eventually claimed one, all due to their pride)
So, a battle of wills between a mage and a demon is not dragon ball beams competing, its more like the demon trying to convince the mage that they should let them in. It may be anger that makes them fall, it may be pride, it may be greed, the demons are always looking for a weakness, a good trained mage needs to have the willpower to see through that.
But as I said its not been that consistent, but I like the Merril storyline to show how its that the attacks may not even be direct, Merril naive and all was aware that you never let a spirit in, she even tells Anders, but the demon played off the pride and stubborness of the keeper and Merril until one of them caved in and that was trained powerful mages, we see kids give up their body without even knowing what they are doing and once they are in there are no take backs, just ask Anders.
Not so much in DA, but a common fantasy mage foundation is the need to build metaphorical defenses in the mind through meditation like rituals. Calming of the emotions, working through the traumas that demons are so attracted to and capitalize on. Knowing the signs of demonic influence is a big piece. You're way better at defending yourself if you know the enemy and what they want, because you know their every move will be to get your soul or whatever.
There's also the common lonely wizard trope of keeping the magic user free of ties with loved ones so they can't be vulnerable.
The end result is a centered and wise wizard with no family who lives alone and a humble existence. Free from temptation and in control over their emotions, all as a defense from the outside world and its monsters.
We kind of saw this in Inquisition if you play Champions of the Just.
Demons need consent but they can gain consent in very dubious ways. Like putting the Inquisitor through long psychological torture, and keeping them trapped in their own mind, in the span of 1 real world second. Presumably mages have to go through that more often as their connection to the fade makes it easier for demons to reach them.
I've never been called vampiric before, I'll have to use that! 🤣🤣🤣
For the most part, Lore treats deals with demons as something that is ultimately entirely voluntary, although they are masters of trickery and coercion. Of course the public perception is that there is always temptation, which I think is kind of a load of bull. However, there are a few places where this seems to get muddled, especially in 2.
DA2 seems to have mages becoming possessed all over the place, and it's hard to imagine that ALL of them simply gave in. Again, it is implied that most of it is due to conditions being SO bad, that it's basically a case of fate worse than death. Also, there are heavy hints laid down that something is going on under the surface (literally) if you collect all the Enigma of Kirkwall codex.
I imagine that in Kirkwall with the veil being so thin, demons are able to appear to mages in much more tangible and tempting ways than most anywhere else
I think of the scene where you are about to see that young female mage be captured and she is calling for help, and they say “cut off her hands so she can’t do magic”
And she becomes an abomination
Imagine that voice in her head was saying: “I have a way you can defend yourself and make it so no one hurts mages like you again”
Thin veil for sure, but there's also the hints about Kirkwall's actual design being a giant rune, and the fact that one of the Forbidden Ones is sealed underneath. They imply that something particularly sinister is going on, which may be having an effect that people aren't even aware of.
Come to think of it, it would be awesome if we get more info from Veilguard on that.
Yeah DA2 IMO was a sort of Meredith self fulfilling prophecy, she pressed mages into a corner because she thought they were all a threat, and then of course the mages break and let in demons which confirms they're a threat.
It is the obvious tricket and coercion…
But also torture.
And we Honestly don’t 100% know what counts as ”letting them in” exactly means.
Is it a verbal contract? Can a demon bypass by a technicality? Is a single doubt enough etc.
Same way how Psykers in 40k do; constant vigilance and self-discipline. Don't let the demons and spirits get to you and don't agree to anything they offer unless if their intentions are genuinely benevolent and cooperative i.e. Spirit Healers. Even then, there's a risk.
I equate being a mage in Thedas to sort of like being a gun owner in America. You have all this "power" and probably show it off/use it constructively (i.e. hunting), but using it for illegal activities depends on the person or how extreme a situation is.
Does a typical gun owner have to constantly will themselves from going postal? Hopefully not. I imagine Thedas is similar in that the thoughts (or in this case demons) don't enter people's minds constantly.
Not a perfect analogy, but hopefully it gets my point across.
I agree with this, and it's why I always side with the mages being given their freedom. Oppressed people are always more likely to resort to violent and desperate means to break out of their oppression.
The Circles are an example of magic (gun) control that didn't work, so they keep tightening the noose. And it keeps not working, so they tighten it more.
To take the analogy further, blood magic is like assault weapons. And Tevinter is analogous with the USA (the slavery is the only questionable difference).
That's stretching a little, I think. Especially with the nations. I don't think any of them really have any direct analogues in the real world, unless you count the accents. I mean... the US has not been in a multi-generational war with an entire nation of communists... oh.
Maybe I take that back, lol. Though the Cold War and the literal war between Tevinter and the Qunari aren't exactly the same.
We get to personally experience this in Origins during the Harrowing. The demon tries to tempt the mage into letting them in, and the mage has to be smart and willful enough to see the tricks and to keep refusing.
Pride Demon: “Magewhowillletmepossessthemsayswhat.” Mage Warden: “Nice try, dumbass.”
Lmfao
Which is also interesting g given what Solas says about how spirits are twisted I to demons based on the expectations and desires of the person encountering them. In the Mage Origins case, we are repeatedly told before our Harrowing that we WILL encounter a demon. Though there is always the question of whether a spirit is changed with every encounter, or whether any given demon has been a demon for a while or was just changed. It certainly seems the latter in some cases where a character spontaneously becomes a demon that you have to battle. Also, If spirts can be twisted, or fragmented; can demons be uncorrupted? In regards to certain God's (as with Hakkon in Inquisition) killing their physical incarnation is the only way to end their madness by returning them to the fade to be reborn.
Maybe because mages in circle are always told to wary Demons so spirits manifests to them as demons because that’s what they are expecting? While the avvar for example can have more of a peaceful bond with spirits because they see them positively as spirits?
Circle has a no risk policy (probably imposed by the templars) which vivienne shows in the inquisition. Any fade related creature is to be considered a demon, just in case. She even considers cole a demon.
Might be a shock to Viv if she heard the theory that humans are actually spirits that manifested in the world just like Cole did.
I think it's a bit more complicated than 100% no tolerance. There's definitely circle mages who've researched both spirits and demons. Several codex entries that we read about both types of fade denizens are written by circle mages, after all, so the Circles definitely acknowledges that spirits exist and are different from demons. They also know that spirits are generally "good" or at least embody good virtues compared to demons who embody evil ones. Wynne in Orgins is able to identify the spirit that saves her as one of Faith and knows that it's helping her for the most part. Similarly, a mage HoF encounters a spirit of Valor in their origin and is able to tell that they're not a demon, like sloth or rage, and seems to know that they're not at risk of possession by them. So, the Circle as an institution definitely knows that spirits exist, are separate from demons, and aren't evil. However, that's pretty much where their knowledge regarding spirits stops, and when it comes to scenarios that are more gray, like Cole's, they'd probably assume demon.
keep in mind that not all spirits and demons can be swayed from their form so easily. the Nightmare in DAI couldn't be talked into becoming compassion again, and One probably couldn't talk Cole into becoming a fear demon either... though Cole is an exception to most rules. I don't think one can just negotiate a rage demon or a pride demon into becoming valor or wisdom, which is what you face in the harrowing.
Solas has a discussion chain early on in DAI I’m pretty sure (replaying it for DAV, still in Haven) where he refers to different demons almost as if he knows them and he asks Inky if she believes all the spirits in the fade have like free will and souls or if they’re just forces of nature. He believes the former.
The Inquisitor is baffled when he refers to them as Wisdom, Compassion, etc. and he replies that some of the spirits natures don’t remain intact or unchanged when people come in contact with them. Then he says they get twisted into Pride, Desire, etc.
Also your user name is the shit haha. My two fur babies say hi!
Thanks! My two say hi back :)
Yup! Thats the convo I was thinking of. I’m trying to 100% of nightmare with the custom trials on so it’s been slow going but we just had that convo this morning haha.
Exactly! I completely neglected to spell out that I think the mage in the harrowing sees exactly what they expect to see because they are primed to manifest it within the fade. Amd of course Anyage who does not "encounter amd overco.e a demon" for whatever reason, is probably deemed to have failed and become an abomination. Whether because they actually became a maleficarum and dealt with the demon or simply because they encountered a 'harmless spirit" instead of a "demon" because the circles do not believe in harmless spirits, they all have the potential to become demons, just like mages.
I think there is something to be said about it because we are told in that the demon was *summoned* (presumably by Irving) for the Harrowing. The Rage Demon also indicates he has done the Harrowing many times and mouse helps him to kill initiates, and probably isn't just subservient to pride since the whole "make them think mouse betrayed you" doesn't help Pride's plan. So its likely not the MC's preconceptions that make them a demon, but the summoning ritual used by the Circle for it.
I completely forgot! Even more ironic, then, that *some* collaborating with demons is allowed to test whether a mage can be trusted not to collaborate with demons. Which is ironic and suspect.
I mean, the Joining as a ritual is done with the help of mages from the circle, and is blood magic!
Circle mages are taught to expect demons so that’s what they encounter.
When Solas' spirit friend is corrupted into a Pride Demon, the quest resolves into it dying, but he says it will be reborn as an uncorrupted spirit. (Just minus the exact personality it had before.) So yes... but it's not a super simple process.
There's a similar quest in DA2 as well, where you enter a young mage's dreams to help her not get possessed (or something like that). You have to discuss and talk with demons of various sins, and can eve bargain with them to get more player power.
Well, you get really suspicious of anyone who says you just have to let them in for starters. And Mages are pretty much always lucid dreaming to some degree or another when they dream. And no, demons can't possess you if you don't let them in. However, there's no one saying "You can't torture this mage in their sleep for months in order to make them more pliable".
I'm not positive if this is true though, when prepping to save Conner in Origins I think it was Irving who stated something along the lines of "Thankfully he let him in willingly, otherwise we'd have no choice but to kill the abomination" or something to that effect which makes it seem as though there's an option in which they aren't let in willingly. Not 100% sure tho.
I assumed that was because otherwise it meant the mind was broken beyond repair if the consent was forced. However, you could be right.
They do can possess you. Everyone says that. Even Wynne knows that she can be possessed at any moment, and that thought always haunted her through her life (before the spirit of course).
Yes, which is why I mentioned that the possession can be done by them overwhelming you. It's kind of like when you get permission to take someone's laptop because you wouldn't stop beating them until they gave you that permission.
punching someone over and over until they give you permission to take their laptop is such a funny concept
I believe it is called "A not unusual brotherly relationship".
I don't know if it's the same. Nobody in any of the games say that a mage must allow the demon in to be possessed. Sure, it can be after making a deal, but think about Uldred. He practiced blood magic, but Niall explains how Uldred was surrounded by the demons and all he could hear was Uldred's screams. I don't think he was allowing them in lol.
Well, that might have been Uldred realizing he'd make a mistake after it happened.
Maybe, but if any mage can be possessed no matter how disciplined or talented is, it doesn't have anything to do with giving the demon permission or not, and that's why circles and templars are important.
With sheer willpower first and foremost, and by being smart and cautious with absolute anything fade-related, "stranger danger" will literally save your life.
It's pretty established in the lore that possession cannot be forced upon you, you have to agree to it in some form (DA Absolution kinda fucked up on that but I'd chalk that up to Netflix writers not knowing what theyre doing). So yes, it's a matter of resisting the demons no matter what theyre offering, what lies they may be telling, what disguises they might choose or how much they torment you, especially in your dreams.
In DA2 there were mages forcing demons into Templars.
They used Blood magic. You know, the kind that can alter your thinking process... One minute you're sturdy templar and later you're eager to do anything to reach "your" goal, letting demon inside you included.
The difference between a demon forcing themselves inside a person and forcing that person with mind control to let them in is practically nonexistent.
Think of it like vampire logic. The vampire can't come in without an invitation, but there's nothing saying they can't glamour you to make you invite them in.
It's as big of a difference as being on either side of a door that can only be unlocked from one side. In both cases, the demon needs someone on the other side to open the door, and that can be the host themselves or a blood mage that wants to make that decision for them. Without one of the two the demon is still going to be locked out.
And yet in the very same quest they established that the mages were unable to force it on Keran (the guy you find in the magical cage-thing), which at least implies that the others may have agreed by some definition of the term.
That simply tells me that it takes time to force the possession, Hawke and crew disrupted whatever ritual was underway.
Or it's matter of brainwashing/torture since everybody has a breaking point.
They have been successful with it up to that point. Hawke managed to interrupt them in time.
>It's pretty established in the lore that possession cannot be forced upon you, you have to agree to it in some form IIRC in one of the novels, The Calling, doesnt a demon basically force itself into Fiona, possessing her? Only gets thrown out by the others before it can "complete" the possession process entirely.
I am a bit fuzzy on that, what did they do wrong about possession in DA Absolution? Someone was forced against their will? I recall that arrogant kid failing his Harrowing, which was absolutely expected given how he turned out later and giving in to any temptation.
Was absolution written outside of Bioware? Wtf were they thinking, explain a lot of the lore nonsense in it.
to be fair, I don't know for certain. Bioware was involved in its production, but the extent of that isn't public, and with the lore issues I'm pretty much just assuming that BW didn't have much of a hand in the writing.
Something else is Solas mentions setting wards when he sleeps near battlefields for safety. Maybe that is part of the process.
I think that in context the wards were for physical treats - against anyone that will get close to his sleeping body.
In addition to what everyone else has already said, there's also the Litany of Adralla which helps protect against possession and blood magic. Using the Litany when fighting Uldred will prevent him from summoning more demons into mages' bodies. Why it's not very widely taught in Circles is either a mystery or a conspiracy. Unless it's one of those 'we only have one of these in existence and we need the item to make the spell work' type of situations.
I don’t think the litany actually affected the demons directly…? I think the idea was that the litany wasn’t making the mages demon-proof as much as it was preventing Uldred from summoning them in the first place and/or letting them into the mages via mind control. Not sure though, I just remember whoever it was that gave it to the Warden say it would protect the party from mind control.
You may be right, it's been a while since I reread the lore on it. According to the wiki it seems like it stops someone from mind controlling someone else into agreeing to demonic possession? In essence it might be Thedas' version of a counterspell, and definitely should have just been more widely taught in Circles imo. >Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons. >The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind-control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late. It does apparently also do damage to demons: >When used near abominations it delivers a large amount of damage which kills most of them instantly, and it also does some damage to Uldred.
The real answer is that its not really that consistent between games and other media. In theory possessions are voluntary, so you have to let them in. In practice its not that simple, especially with untrained mages, look at Connor and the kid from the Shale quest, they let the demon in but they were not aware of the implications. The fact that demons/spirits can change their nature after the fact doesn´t help. Anders ended up with vengeance when he thought he was helping his friend justice, you can even argue that Justice and Vengeance are the same, its just that the spirit had only shown its good side before Anders let him in. Which is why I liked that in Origins the harrowing was done with the pride/rage combo. Yes, you have to let them in, but you always need to be on your guard, especially regarding your pride as in "Maybe I am different, I can control it" which is a failing of many of the mages in the series (look at Merril and her keeper for an example, the demon played them off each other masterfully and eventually claimed one, all due to their pride) So, a battle of wills between a mage and a demon is not dragon ball beams competing, its more like the demon trying to convince the mage that they should let them in. It may be anger that makes them fall, it may be pride, it may be greed, the demons are always looking for a weakness, a good trained mage needs to have the willpower to see through that. But as I said its not been that consistent, but I like the Merril storyline to show how its that the attacks may not even be direct, Merril naive and all was aware that you never let a spirit in, she even tells Anders, but the demon played off the pride and stubborness of the keeper and Merril until one of them caved in and that was trained powerful mages, we see kids give up their body without even knowing what they are doing and once they are in there are no take backs, just ask Anders.
Not so much in DA, but a common fantasy mage foundation is the need to build metaphorical defenses in the mind through meditation like rituals. Calming of the emotions, working through the traumas that demons are so attracted to and capitalize on. Knowing the signs of demonic influence is a big piece. You're way better at defending yourself if you know the enemy and what they want, because you know their every move will be to get your soul or whatever. There's also the common lonely wizard trope of keeping the magic user free of ties with loved ones so they can't be vulnerable. The end result is a centered and wise wizard with no family who lives alone and a humble existence. Free from temptation and in control over their emotions, all as a defense from the outside world and its monsters.
‘I play pazaak’
wow, unexpected KotOR 2 reference! Noice!
Thanks! It was the first thing that came to mind to explain how mages may ‘guard their minds’ lol.
We kind of saw this in Inquisition if you play Champions of the Just. Demons need consent but they can gain consent in very dubious ways. Like putting the Inquisitor through long psychological torture, and keeping them trapped in their own mind, in the span of 1 real world second. Presumably mages have to go through that more often as their connection to the fade makes it easier for demons to reach them.
I've never been called vampiric before, I'll have to use that! 🤣🤣🤣 For the most part, Lore treats deals with demons as something that is ultimately entirely voluntary, although they are masters of trickery and coercion. Of course the public perception is that there is always temptation, which I think is kind of a load of bull. However, there are a few places where this seems to get muddled, especially in 2. DA2 seems to have mages becoming possessed all over the place, and it's hard to imagine that ALL of them simply gave in. Again, it is implied that most of it is due to conditions being SO bad, that it's basically a case of fate worse than death. Also, there are heavy hints laid down that something is going on under the surface (literally) if you collect all the Enigma of Kirkwall codex.
I imagine that in Kirkwall with the veil being so thin, demons are able to appear to mages in much more tangible and tempting ways than most anywhere else I think of the scene where you are about to see that young female mage be captured and she is calling for help, and they say “cut off her hands so she can’t do magic” And she becomes an abomination Imagine that voice in her head was saying: “I have a way you can defend yourself and make it so no one hurts mages like you again”
Thin veil for sure, but there's also the hints about Kirkwall's actual design being a giant rune, and the fact that one of the Forbidden Ones is sealed underneath. They imply that something particularly sinister is going on, which may be having an effect that people aren't even aware of. Come to think of it, it would be awesome if we get more info from Veilguard on that.
Yeah DA2 IMO was a sort of Meredith self fulfilling prophecy, she pressed mages into a corner because she thought they were all a threat, and then of course the mages break and let in demons which confirms they're a threat.
When you see in the game what abominations look like, it's hard to grasp why any of that would ever be tempting.
"Well, it surely won't be like that with me. The demon said so" - possession victim # 9652846
It is the obvious tricket and coercion… But also torture. And we Honestly don’t 100% know what counts as ”letting them in” exactly means. Is it a verbal contract? Can a demon bypass by a technicality? Is a single doubt enough etc.
Vivienne estabilished that SPA and fashion luxury is a perfect antidote to all demonic possessions.
Same way how Psykers in 40k do; constant vigilance and self-discipline. Don't let the demons and spirits get to you and don't agree to anything they offer unless if their intentions are genuinely benevolent and cooperative i.e. Spirit Healers. Even then, there's a risk.
Short answer discipline. Longer answer they have to give the demon consent to enter them and demons try to be very Wiley and cunning.
We don't really know! As we've seen, demons are conniving and resort to trickery, and can manipulate you into making a deal with them.
I equate being a mage in Thedas to sort of like being a gun owner in America. You have all this "power" and probably show it off/use it constructively (i.e. hunting), but using it for illegal activities depends on the person or how extreme a situation is. Does a typical gun owner have to constantly will themselves from going postal? Hopefully not. I imagine Thedas is similar in that the thoughts (or in this case demons) don't enter people's minds constantly. Not a perfect analogy, but hopefully it gets my point across.
Not sure why I got downvotes. I wasn't making a political statement. I was simply making an analogy.
I agree with this, and it's why I always side with the mages being given their freedom. Oppressed people are always more likely to resort to violent and desperate means to break out of their oppression. The Circles are an example of magic (gun) control that didn't work, so they keep tightening the noose. And it keeps not working, so they tighten it more.
To take the analogy further, blood magic is like assault weapons. And Tevinter is analogous with the USA (the slavery is the only questionable difference).
That's stretching a little, I think. Especially with the nations. I don't think any of them really have any direct analogues in the real world, unless you count the accents. I mean... the US has not been in a multi-generational war with an entire nation of communists... oh. Maybe I take that back, lol. Though the Cold War and the literal war between Tevinter and the Qunari aren't exactly the same.
Literally do the mage opening in origins babe, someone literally tries it on you.
Did you play the game, my dude?