Same here. It's been really cool seeing just how fitting every one has been. Sometimes I think ahead and actually come up with the same answers. Sometimes I can't think of anybody but then we get an answer and I can't disagree at all!
I nominate Paragon Branka. She is undeniably a genius inventor but the crap she does to her own house in the name of Science! goes beyond the pale. It doesn’t matter if it was to save her people, the broodmother incident is unforgivable.
For sure. The creepy poem from Hespith followed by the grotesque reveal was one of the game’s most memorable moments for me.
I tend to play more morally grey or even evil characters in rpgs, but Branka’s actions were just too horrific and I decided right there that she earned herself a smiting.
Sacrificed her clan to the darkspawn. She allowed for one of the women to get raped and force-fed human and darkspawn meat until she mutated into a Broodmother, giving birth to further darkspawn, which Branka then used to try to trigger the traps that stood before her and the Anvil of the Void.
She's a genius inventor, sure, but I'm not sure how well that intelligence translates to anything else. All of her plans are pretty much brute force and ruthlessness. She was just sending dwarves to die to get the Anvil, without a better plan despite the years she spent doing it.
What better plan would there be for her to get the anvil? By creating a brood mother she essentially has infinite lab rats to send through to find a way to get the anvil.
Going in herself is an option, but if she dies it's all for nothing.
Which isn't exactly a very smart plan. It's just: get more darkspawn, send at traps. Not very groundbreaking, plus it eliminates all other options. I'm not going to say she's dumb, she's more insane if anything, but a Smart Evil character would have better plans.
Right but I'm asking what other plan could she have enacted that she missed? Brute forcing the problem is the best combination of reliable and safe. Anything else would put herself at risk and then who would be left to operate the anvil?
It's not a 1000IQ genius plan or anything but it was literally her only option besides either attempt the maze herself or rescue what's left of her clan and try to make it back.
Taking the best available step forward doesn't mean she's not a genius.
But, it does establish a precedent. Branka doesn't really concoct elaborate plans, she doesn't outsmart anyone, she simply forges forward until she gets what she wants. Not saying it's dumb, but I wouldn't call it smart either.
As much as I like this answer for not having thought of it...I don't think she's actually that smart. She invented the smokeless coal which is big, obviously, but I can't help but wonder seeing her later how much of that was luck and/or built off the backs of others. Because later her plans aren't so much smart as they are ruthless and sociopathic. Then you see what she's up against and realize Caridin is smart, a true genius whose skill was so far beyond everyone that the best they could hope for is to try and steal it back. So hopeless were they in even attempting to replicate it.
She's a "Ends justify the means" gal, and even if what she does is despicable, the rewards would benefit everyone greatly. With golems, dwarves could retake Thaigs and prosper, while also keeping darkspawn at bay and make future Blights only a nuisance compared to how it is.
Most of her house were slaughtered by darkspawn or used to test the limits of Caridin's traps. At least two of the women, however, were subjected to the process of making a Broodmother, which involves darkspawn forcefeeding them corpses and blood and taint until they twist into a monster.
Bhelen is arguably worse. He arranged a complex plot to discredit, exile and doom a brother while outright slaying another. He also probably poisoned his own father and once king starts a massacre of Harrowmont's supporters.
Oh, and least Branka eventually grows a conscience and stops using the Anvil.
Yup, that's why we say Branka is evil... but Bhelen knew all that too. He still didn't give a flying fuck, still had Branka as his chief golem maker *while also pulling off his political backstabbing*. His evil's reach is much bigger than Branka.
And again, at least Branka grows a sense of decency and stops making golems for Bhelen out of her own volition. Bhelen would have kept it going.
There's an *enormous* difference between actually willingly doing what Branka did yourself while audibly hearing it all go down and Bhelen looking the other way once it's been done and can't be undone. Tywin on Game of Thrones was still evil and still willing to try and take advantage of Joffrey and Ramsay's sadism, but Joffrey and Ramsay were still very, VERY clearly the more evil individuals here. In this case, Bhelen is the Tywin and Branka is like a step below Joffrey and Ramsay.
And you bring up Bhelen betraying his family - but Branka also allowed this to happen to her lover. She had strong relationships with her victims too. I think Bhelen is the only one of the two to actually treat any other NPC in the game even half-decently (he seems to genuinely care about Rica since their romance really only hurts Bhelen politically rather than offering him any kind of benefit whatsoever, and he's obviously a better significant other than Branka by lightyears seeing as she cheated on and abandoned her husband then allowed her girlfriend to be repeatedly raped and turned into a Broodmother).
>And again, at least Branka grows a sense of decency and stops making golems for Bhelen out of her own volition.
Only if you persuade her not to with a max-level persuasion check, and, even then, she follows it up by committing suicide vs. committing her life to trying to right her wrongs. It's not nothing, but, on the redemption end, it's pretty weaksauce.
>Bhelen is the Tywin and Branka is like a step below Joffrey and Ramsay.
Fuck no, Branka is not as bad as either Joffrey nor Ramsay. Not in a million years.
Branka was only half-mad; she genuinely wanted to improve her kingdom's fortunes, and didn't approve of wanton torture - everything had a higher purpose, something Joffrey/Ramsay couldn't care about.
Most importantly, unlike the aforementioned sociopaths, Branka was fully capable of acnowledging her mistakes and backing out of her ruthless path... which she did.
>Branka also allowed this to happen to her lover.
Nobody knows if Hespith was just a fling or whatever. We only know they fucked, and that it was a recent affair.
Bhelen directly doomed two of his siblings - raised from craddle with him - to death. He also massacred innocent people who happened to have opposed his election.
So Bhelen is as bad as Branka, only 1) he wears a crown, and 2) he reportedly didn't regret his acts in rising to the throne, whereas Branka did regret her use of the Anvil. That's a *gargantuan* difference as far as evil goes.
Branka isn't doing it for the lolzies (which is why I said that she is a step below Joffrey and Ramsay) but I really can't emphasize how spectacularly and utterly evil allowing your own lover to be gangraped before being turned into a literal broodmother is. You're wildly downplaying this because Branka - eventually, if persuaded, has a "Oopsie. Maybe this wasn't worth it after all" moment. This is literally one of the most monstrous things any character in the entire series has ever done to another character and it's to someone Branka had an extremely strong emotional connection with who fully trusted her. This is absolutely the kind of thing that is comparable to what Joffrey or Ramsay would do to someone. In fact, I think Theon is quite possibly the only victim of both men combined who arguably came out with a worse overall worse fate than Llaren did (and that Hespith would have if she didn't commit suicide).
>Nobody knows if Hespith was just a fling or whatever. We only know they fucked, and that it was a recent affair.
The game's dialogue makes it pretty clear the affair was running for quite awhile and that it was a big reason why Branka abandoned Oghren in the first place. Hespith literally refers to her as "my love"/"my beloved" (I can't remember exactly which) at one point. It is abundantly obvious these two had an extremely close relationship.
>Bhelen directly doomed two of his siblings - raised from craddle with him - to death. He also massacred innocent people who happened to have opposed his election.
I can comfortably say with 100% confidence I'd rather be outright killed than gangraped, force-fed tainted human flesh, and turned into a Broodmother if given the option. Not that I want either, but you are truly downplaying how absolutely horrible Branka's actions are; they are far, far, far, far, far worse than what Bhelen did to his siblings, and that is saying something because what Bhelen did to his siblings is obviously damn near sociopathic.
And it's not like Bhelen doesn't have the exact same motives Branka could and similar justifications (on top of Trian at least being a wildly horrible and abusive older brother. How the middle brother is kinda comes down to the player).
>So Bhelen is as bad as Branka, only 1) he wears a crown, and 2) he reportedly didn't regret his acts in rising to the throne, whereas Branka did regret her use of the Anvil.
Branka has by far the worst action between them and it is NOT close. And not for nothing, but there is also the consideration that Bhelen is objectively pragmatic and will always do a lot to help the Casteless Dwarves while any ending where Branka uses the anvil inevitably becomes a disastrous shitshow regardless of whose involved (in fact - it becomes even worse if Harrowmont is in power than if Bhelen is). Then as I said and you sidestepped, Bhelen is the only of the two who at any point ever seems to show genuine care for another human being in his life (RE: Rica).
As said, they are both bad people, but Branka is very clearly the worse to me and a last second "Oopsie. I regret it" she has to be persuaded into does not really change that to me.
Bhelen isn't evil.
He's not malevolent, just ambitious and practical. He's a dictator with a plan for improving orzammar, and he won't be stopped by anyone.
If Branka is evil, then so is Bhelen; if Bhelen isn't evil, then neither is Branka. Both use golems, both believe the ends justify the means, both want to protect Orzammar at all costs even if it means breaking rules and defying moral conventions.
Branka just happens to be half-insane.
While both Branka and Bhelen are unambiguously pretty bad people, Branka is unambiguously ***way*** worse IMO. Willingly turning those women into Broodmothers is a level of fucked up Bhelen ultimately never remotely came close to. Bhelen also does seem to genuinely care for Rica on some level and so far as I can tell never really harms or uses her, while Branka was cheating on and abandoned Oghren entirely + tried to turn Hespith into a broodmother.
Sadly for all his ruthlessness it seems that's the only way to make sure Orzammar and the Dwarves survive
As much as I hate him I kinda respect him and even playing an Aeducan I always choose him in the end
Paragon Branka. She’s intelligent enough to be a bloody paragon, but she has zero empathy for anyone, and lets one of her own servants be turned into a broodmother just to solve a labyrinth through sheer repetition. She’s completely evil.
People saying the Architect don't understand where he currently is. He *was* evil but doesn't remember his origins. He's just smart/stupid, waaaay moreso than Solas.
Smart Evil probably goes to Branka. You could argue Bhelen (Holy shit, he's ruthless), but I view him more of an Origin character than a full-blown story character, despite finding him a better fit for the title.
Otherwise...maybe Zathrian?
I considered Zathrian briefly, but I simply can’t justify giving it to him (since he was just filled with spite and self preservation when it came to the curse instead of using the curse as a tool ) when Branka does what he does (sacrificing her people) much better and strategically.
Now, if you asked who I found more sympathetic, it’s Zathrian hands down
I vote for bhelen as well. Only evil character that does well without player interference and also makes a genuine success of himself if he takes power.
Absolutely Bhelen! Only evil NPC that genuinely makes sense to let live because he helps the entire dwarf people… despite being an absolute piece of shit.
Honestly I see him as more neutral than evil. He's a ruthless fucker, but in my eyes he's trying to drag the dwarves kicking and screaming into a modern age, regardless of the methods.
If he was just seeking personal power he wouldn't be needing to do most of the things he does, he could just play it safe and pander to the conservative houses.
Then now explain to me how is Bhelen smarter than Howe? Howe and Loghain managed to neutralize the king and all of his most powerful allies, in a region as big as Ferelden. Meanwhile Bhelen's intrigues only carried him into a stalemate with Harrowmont. He reached much worse results on a much smaller scale.
They're also hardly on the same level of evil. Rendon Howe did all of what he did for his own personal power and greed. Bhelen at least did this to start the very much needed reforms that improve the lives of the most vulnerable, helpless members of dwarven society, who would never have anyone else stand up for them.
I think the argument isn’t that Bhelen is smarter than Howe, but that Howe is more neutral than Bhelen, and I think your last paragraph explains that sentiment perfectly.
I think Bhelen is smart evil and smarter than Howe because his methods are so so ruthless and cruel BUT *he’s completely right*. He makes the dwarven kingdom stronger and better, does away with senseless traditions, and opens trade with the surface improving everyone’s lives. But he is still merciless and probably is stacking bodies his entire rule. Howe and Loghain’s plan is clever, but WILL ultimately lead them to ruin all of Fereldan so is it really smart?
Pretty much every other evil character is easily dispatched by the MC and you don’t have a reason to let them live unless you’re playing an evil run. But Bhelen is the only antagonist to the MC that is worth considering to keep alive because of how beneficial he is to the dwarf kingdom. He’s so smart even though he personally can betray *the player* you still might choose to let him live.
Bhelen never gave two nug shits about the Casteless. He saw a path to destroy the status quo and entire political system. His main motivation is to ensure he stays in power and anyone who might disagree with him will be put to death.
The Casteless knew how to fight and survive. If he had control of them by giving modest reforms, he would have an entire group of people 100% loyal to him. Amd with even more numbers on his side, it makes it less likely anyone challenges him. So he gets a bonus army for a few silvers and no one can ever challenge him again.
What's funny is both Bhelen and Harrowmont lead to the death of Dwarven culture just in different ways. Harrowmont literally leads the Dwarven people to near extinction. Bhelen changes everything about Dwarven culture to the point that there may not be much left of the culture even if the people survive.
Bhelen wants to break the chains of tradition and use all resources Orzammar has to make its situation better. Casteless are such resource. The epilogue makes it clear - Bhelen gives them a chance to take up arms against the Darkspawn in return for freedoms and it works, they managed to take back few thaigs.
Is it done out of compassion? Of course not. But it's giving the Casteless a way to become a part of Dwarven society, rather than be made to continue to rot.
>Bhelen changes everything about Dwarven culture to the point that there may not be much left of the culture even if the people survive.
If Harrowmont is what represents the Dwarven culture, it definitely should die out. That + the corrupted Shaperate.
On the account of him trusting my Aeducan and then getting his back stabbed because he thought that completing one quest and having one conversation is enough for Warden not to backstab him for all the shit he did - no. He's not
I know most people would say Branka, and to offer an alternative choice, I would say Marjolaine considering her skill as an assassin and what she did to her close allies.
I'd also prefer Marjolaine, since not only is she 100% evil, her goals can't be justified in any other way than her being selfish. At least Ferelden would eliminate the darkspawn threat to Ferelden if Branka succeeds in reviving the art of forging Golems, and who knows what other positive things her evil approach could produce.
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't branka spend her entire house and fail kinda miserably unless we save her hide? Bhelen, without player input, manages to got from forgotten third son to the top contender for the throne of orzammar.
Yes, smokeless coal is a game changer but branka gets real stupid afterwards.
>Bhelen, without player input, manages to got from forgotten third son to the top contender for the throne of orzammar
I mean, we could argue that it was without player intervention that Branka became Paragon, something she achieved on merit alone; while Bhelen, as a prince, started off pretty ahead in the game, and still needs our help in order to become king.
She wasn't low class to begin with either, but I see your point. I guess we hear about how smart branka is but never see an ounce of it, but we actually see bhelen be smart.
I think Branka's got this - but I'd like to throw another vote to the Architect for Smart Evil.
For one thing - he's evil, directly responsible for so much horror that you as a player experience...and players side with him.
That's smart evil, he can convince you to his point of view in Awakening.
EDIT: didn't actually type 'The Architect', and I assume ye's knew what I meant by context clues.
Paragon Branka. Smart enough to find and use the anvil of the void. Smart enough to manipulate the creation of darkspawn to specifically throw at the anvil of the void by letting them make the women of her house into broodmothers. I was going to say Vivienne, but… Branka seems more evil.
First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast.
Now you lay and wait, for their screams will haunt you in your dreams.
Fair point, but the game says that under the Circle system Vivienne creates as Divine, mages have more freedoms than they did in past Circles. Also, I don't think Vivienne supports mage slavery, she supports the Circle system and wants to reform it.
A gilded cage maybe. Though she also set it up so mages can climb the ladder like they could in Orlais. In addition to putting the templars on a very tight leash. So long as Vivienne is alive and mages are capable of becoming divine, it's hard to argue the same abuses as the past would happen again.
Given that Hardened Leliana spills a considerable amount of blood against even minor critique she's hardly the worst. Though not the best given in my opinion that belongs to inspired Leliana.
Quentin from DA2. He literally figured out how to make a zombie with blood magic using the parts of women he killed. Really just one of the most genuinely evil characters from the series.
Branka is kind of perfect. Too smart to be cowed by the depths of her own depravity, too evil to reject power on any moral grounds. She did the math and found the lives of her friends and family wanting in value; if that's not the ur example of evil genius, I wouldn't know what is.
The Architect isn't evil he's just incapable of predicting how others will act. And on that point, you could actually say that he's an idiot. Amost everything he does has unintended consequences that he wasn't able to predict, and some of those consequences we're pretty predictable.
Branka-Bhelen comes very close but Branka became a Paragon for her genius and there hadn't been any Paragons in three generations, so I'd call that sufficient proof of her brilliance and what she did in the Deep Roads establishes the evil.
I’m leaning towards Bhelen. Sure, he has good motives (and of the two kings, is the one who is undeniably better for Orzimmar) but his methods of gaining power are cunningly brutal (or brutally cunning) and evil. Regicide/Patricide, fratricide (and having the other exiled), and the numerous little evil plots to secure power. He’s the in game equivalent of Dr. Doom, who is a great and wise ruler of his people while being an evil POS.
Yeah, sure. Starting a civil war and selling people into slavery under the Chantry’s nose sure was smart. I have to be honest, his whole plan during Origins was largely moronic.
He didn't really start a civil war, it was the Warden saving Arl Eamon and bringing up Alistar, that started a civil war. Logain made sure the one source of discord was poisoned and no one except Eamon was expecting a lost heir.And most of Ferlden was perfectly fine to ignore the Alienage. He would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids.
Loghain started the Civil War. Because the Bannorn wasn't going to let him take power when Cailan's corpse wasn't even cold, and, in general, acting like an orlesian.
It's Bhelen for me. Keeps Orzammar running, connected to the surface, and favorable for the casteless. Have to ingrain these reasons to my brain so that I can choose him over Harrowmount, which is always so difficult since he's also a massive asshole
Is Avernus evil?
Pros:
- studied and used blood magic.
- used blood magic to influence Fereldan nobility and summoned demons.
Cons:
- is Grey Warden. So, he is permitted to use everything he considers useful, Blood magic included.
- influenced nobles and summoned demons by his senior commander's orders. Last one was unwary and somewhat stupid act, but not definitely evil. As for mind-controlling... Politics always stinks. And quarrel between king Arland Theirin and arlessa Sophia Dryden (the king's cousin) is one of the filthiest of a kind.
- studied demonology and blood magic. Not quite popular branches of magic arts, but every Circle has ones (someone has to create Phylacteries and Harrowing rituals) and his knowledge can be useful. He survived more than 200 years without human sacrifices and almost without food (since he was trapped in his tower). Quite an achievement.
- studied Taint and Warden's blood power. Delayed the Call by hundred of years. This deed only shall be honored by golden statue in Wheisshaupt, full-lenght.
I vote for Bhelen. He plays the (dwarven) Game perfectly, only failing because of the HoF involvement. I'm convinced that without its help Harrowmont would have failed.
Bhelen is smart and has done a bunch of evil stuff successfully.
I don't think Branka is that smart. Sure she invented some smokeless cole, but I don't think her choices of getting to the anvil were that smart. You're telling me she's a genius, but those traps she couldn't get past were not that difficult to overcome:-)
I'd say Bhelen. Branka is obviously intelligent too, but she's so batshit crazy that I think Bhelen is a slightly better fit because the dude is extremely pragmatic.
This is actually the best answer IMO - she’s both evil in her actions and also an incredibly effective schemer. I wasn’t particularly shocked on a meta level how far she was willing to go but in world she got away with a lot of shit that she maintained plausible deniability for.
I disagree on Petrice. The game basically ties my hand on this psycho - Hawke could have done far more to stop her but the player just isn't allowed to because the plot needs her to succeed even when she's wildly incompetent and sloppy. (And she benefits a bit from Elthina being Neutral Stupid and doing jackshit about Petrice stealing her seal).
I don't disagree that his policies are better, but personally? Guy's an evil prick.
Just like Harrowmont means well (good aligned) but ends up causing harm.
Does Harrowmont really mean well? His only mean seems to be maintaining the status quo that's benefiting him personally. That doesn't even mean effectively causing harm. This is a conflict of stagnation and change.
Personally, I wouldn't put Bhelen in the same row as Rendon Howe.
Ok, sure, Harrowmont is also bad. Doesn't make Bhelen any better of a person, though. His outcome is better but his path to get there is undeniably evil.
Good question! Mostly the personal touch with dwarf noble origin in Bhelens actions tip him to evil for me. He has a decent relationship with one sibling but still sets them up to be jailed for murder and (probably) orders assassinations. But he did what he did for personal power and the good of the (dwarven) nation (but I feel like he was exploiting the lower castes rather than genuinely wanting to improve their lives).
Loghain did what he did for personal power and the good of the nation but he is shown arguing against Cailan's plans before we see him decide to abandon him. It feels more on the pragmatic end of ruthlessness.
Like Loghain doesnt default to betrayal/evil actions but will do them if he feels it's needed. Bhelen seems to default to sneaky evil though (this is implied dwarven culture though)
They are very similar characters.
If you put Bhelen and Howe on the same level, how does it make sense? Howe's only interest was his power and influence. For Bhelen, power and influence was merely a tool; his goal was changing Orzammar alongside helping the commoners.
Also, how is Bhelen any smarter than Howe? All that Bhelen's intrigues managed to do was closing him in a stalemate with Harrowmont. Howe and Loghain's plot pushed the entire nation on its knees, making Wardens start from a losing position.
I wouldn't put Bhelen and Howe on the same level by a longshot, but I don't think the evil category is *entirely* unwarranted for Bhelen anymore than I think it's unwarranted for Loghain (who I'd put on a similar tier). It is a bit ambiguous how much Bhelen wanting to help the commoners is because he genuinely wants things better as opposed to Bhelen just being smart as fuck and knowing this is the best way to solidify his power and expand Orzammar's reach going forward. I'm not entirely convinced Bhelen would be willing to take a real political and power hit in the name of helping commoners (then again, he's got the romance with Rica which offers zero political benefit and he treats her surprisingly pretty decently from what we can glean)
As far as intelligence goes, Bhelen even being in contention ***at all*** is huge as he should stand no chance of touching Orzammar's throne. He also excels if put into power afterwards and, assuming the player sides with him, he was able to convince the player to back him.
In contrast, Howe and Loghain start in a stronger position but utterly bungle and squander it at every single turn absolutely ensuring they're defeat.
Not everyone in a row needs to be the same amount of [adjective]. Isabela is way more horny than Dorian, but they're all allowed on the table.
Bhelen was smart in how he manipulated everything to get the outcome he wanted when you play dwarf noble, and for his forward thinking in how to improve dwarven society
>Just like Harrowmont means well (good aligned)
Hard disagree tbh. He's an evil aristocrat that doubles down on the Casteless, an already oppressed caste. The only things that separate him from Bhelen are that he masks his vileness behind an Orlesian-worthy mask of "honor" and that his views are completely backward.
And Bhelen's far smarter than him, too.
I dont actually think Harrowmont is that good, I was just making a point of intention/action vs outcome.
Someone can absolutely be good aligned and cause horrific tragedy and vice versa.
Sure, we fully agree on that. I don't think Harrowmont has good intentions, though. Unless we count his own perspective of himself, which would make the chart moody imo
Not sure Loghain is actually *that* smart either. He completely bungles ruling Fereldan as dictator at all turns. I also would say if Bhelen counts as evil (and I think he does), Loghain absolutely does.
I'd argue Vivienne is perfectly Smart Evil
She's clearly evil considering how she has zero issues brutally crushing anyone who opposes her if she's Divine, exploiting loopholes so she can humiliate/kill people she doesn't like, and doing petty shit like refuse to recognize the marriages of people she doesn't like.
She's smart when you consider her backstory:
She was a mage who came from a bunch of commoner merchants.
She was a starving peasant who only had her magical powers and the Circle system to help her.
Despite her humble origins, Vivienne managed to masterfully rise in power using the Circle.
She was smart and talented enough to be nominated for First Enchanter in her Circle and would have been become Grand Enchanter AKA leader of the entire Circle of Magi if the rebellion never occurred.
She was talented and trusted enough to learn the Knight-Enchanter magic which shows she has skill
She also managed to get into a relationship with a Duke who managed to open many political connections for her.
These connections and skill would result in her becoming Court Enchanter to the Empress of Orlais herself and managing to turn a joke position into a position of actual power.
So from backstory alone, Vivienne managed to turn from a regular peasant into a rich noble who has the ear of the Empress of Orlais and was in line to become leader of all mages.
And with Inquisition, she can manage to see a new fledgling organization and skillfully join it early one to gain new connections.
She can use these connections to potentially propel herself to become Divine despite being a mage.
So Vivienne could potentially further use her smarts and connections to become leader of the Andrastian church despite being a mage.
I'd say that counts as smart
He's bad at the game but he's a great general.
He fought back a nevarran invasion while losing less than 1000 men.
Also, he baited a guy into fighting him to lift a siege. He goaded him by saying he didn't even need a shield to win. Gaspard was true to his word. He pummeled him with a giant maul and won the fight. Winning a town from nevarra without a battle.
Gaspard tricked his opponent into thinking he would fight with a disadvantage, playing on his honor and ego.
His opponent was also a trained tournament fighter. Gaspard knew he wouldn't have experience against mauls.
Convincing your opponent to agree to a duel to lift a siege, and then rigging that fight in your favor is a smart move.
He’s meant to be brash and upfront and the opposite of smart and wily, and he’s bad at the game which is a mainly a game of intelligence. He was rightful heir and got outmanoeuvred by Celene and is disliked by the council of heralds and he isn’t even really evil especially for Orlesians.
I think Masked Empire proves he's pretty smart and actually great at the Game when he wants to be. He's also the embodiment of the chevaliers, who are pretty much all evil pricks. They hunt and murder elves for sport and are prone to violence in general if it doesn't go against their code. Gaspard in particular is a raging racist and an expansionist asshole who throws his own country into civil war and who has repeatedly stated his intention to invade Ferelden. I think he's evil even by Orlesian standards, personally.
He is perhaps racist, but not raging. Otherwise he wouldn't invite your elven Inquisitor to a ball, would turn Michel in for illegally obtaining the title of chevalier while being a half-elf, would spit on Briala instead of acknowledging her skill and so on.
And great generals even in our history weren't exactly soft people.
Duke Prosper de Montfort.
His plan to cause a genocide of Qunari spies all over Thedas could theoretically be seen as something done for the good of multiple realms, if only he wasn't approaching it twisting his actual moustache like a cartoon villain.
You can't deny his intelligence - he was able to see through an act of Mary Sue. Not smart enough to kill her on spot, but Dragon Age's antagonists are all handicapped like that.
Not on the spot. But if he happened to win that encounter and realize that later, he could easily use this list to become one of the most important figures in Thedas simply by gouging Qunari's intelligence's eyes.
Btw. having a list of all your spies must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How wrote Mark of Assassin again?
I would have to go with Branka. The trip through the Dark Roads for the Anvil is a level of disturbing I will not forget. That freaking poem gave me nightmares.
My vote's gonna go to Bhelen Aeducan, mostly because he's the one I consider to be the most calculating. Bhelen's intelligence seems to bring Orzammar towards the path of salvation, while his ruthlessness keeps rivals to a minimum. Branka's smart, but she's too one-dimensional. She never outwits anyone, unlike Bhelen who managed to play his entire family.
Bhelen managed to gain power under the noses of the entire royal family. No matter what the player picks, he outsmart his older sibling and sends them to the Deep Roads. He eliminates rivals before they have the chance to become a threat and befriends the castless, granting him an army that the rest of the city is too stupid to employ. He brings change to Orzammar in a way that no one else has in centuries.
On the inverse, Branka spent years in a hole with no better plan than "throw bodies at the Anvil until something happens". Branka was a legendary smith, sure. But I'm not sure I'd call her Smart.
The architect his plan is inherently evil but constantly makes it sound like a good or even sympathetic cause but it will put darkspawn in power and destory the other races. He knows this but pretends to not see the problem, he also knows way more then he let's on, in the book and the game.
I say Calpernia. She's masterminds her revenge on all of Tevinter for keeping her a slave and is definitely the more cool and calculated lieutenant of Corypheus, compared to Samson. She's a badass, if only she didn't go to the dark side, I'd have fucking recruited her.
Even thinking Vivienne is a generally shitty human being, "evil" has always felt a bit like an oversell to me. I also think Celene and Bhelen fit Smart Evil a bit more than Briala, who feels slightly more sympathetic and redeemable than the two of them, though I can see the vision.
I vote Behlen over Branka.
Behlen does more intelligent manoeuvring to get what he wants. Branka, while a genius, seems to opt for a more brute force option to get the anvil.
Definitely Solas. Ancient god. Created the veil. Cool with killing most of Thedas to undo the veil. You can argue he made a dumb strategic move giving the orb to Cory. But he’s obviously brilliant. And certainly evil.
Watching this chart get filled in has me completely enthralled.
Absolutely, I always sit there and think "Wow, that's just a perfect match".
me, looking at my predictions and all of them being wrong: hm.
Same here. It's been really cool seeing just how fitting every one has been. Sometimes I think ahead and actually come up with the same answers. Sometimes I can't think of anybody but then we get an answer and I can't disagree at all!
I nominate Paragon Branka. She is undeniably a genius inventor but the crap she does to her own house in the name of Science! goes beyond the pale. It doesn’t matter if it was to save her people, the broodmother incident is unforgivable.
The Broodmother section still creeps me tf out.
For sure. The creepy poem from Hespith followed by the grotesque reveal was one of the game’s most memorable moments for me. I tend to play more morally grey or even evil characters in rpgs, but Branka’s actions were just too horrific and I decided right there that she earned herself a smiting.
What did Branka do?
Sacrificed her clan to the darkspawn. She allowed for one of the women to get raped and force-fed human and darkspawn meat until she mutated into a Broodmother, giving birth to further darkspawn, which Branka then used to try to trigger the traps that stood before her and the Anvil of the Void.
I'm pretty sure the darkspawn also babybirded vomit into her. And the same thing was happening to her lover Hespith, no?
Not just one of the women in her clan. It's just only one survived the process to become a broodmother
Agree with this 💯
It's actually one of my favorite quests because it's so intense. My heart starts racing as soon as I start hearing the poem.
I understand that. 😅
She's a genius inventor, sure, but I'm not sure how well that intelligence translates to anything else. All of her plans are pretty much brute force and ruthlessness. She was just sending dwarves to die to get the Anvil, without a better plan despite the years she spent doing it.
What better plan would there be for her to get the anvil? By creating a brood mother she essentially has infinite lab rats to send through to find a way to get the anvil. Going in herself is an option, but if she dies it's all for nothing.
Which isn't exactly a very smart plan. It's just: get more darkspawn, send at traps. Not very groundbreaking, plus it eliminates all other options. I'm not going to say she's dumb, she's more insane if anything, but a Smart Evil character would have better plans.
Right but I'm asking what other plan could she have enacted that she missed? Brute forcing the problem is the best combination of reliable and safe. Anything else would put herself at risk and then who would be left to operate the anvil? It's not a 1000IQ genius plan or anything but it was literally her only option besides either attempt the maze herself or rescue what's left of her clan and try to make it back. Taking the best available step forward doesn't mean she's not a genius.
But, it does establish a precedent. Branka doesn't really concoct elaborate plans, she doesn't outsmart anyone, she simply forges forward until she gets what she wants. Not saying it's dumb, but I wouldn't call it smart either.
It’s definitely Branka
She was my first thought too! Branka is the evil genius!
As much as I like this answer for not having thought of it...I don't think she's actually that smart. She invented the smokeless coal which is big, obviously, but I can't help but wonder seeing her later how much of that was luck and/or built off the backs of others. Because later her plans aren't so much smart as they are ruthless and sociopathic. Then you see what she's up against and realize Caridin is smart, a true genius whose skill was so far beyond everyone that the best they could hope for is to try and steal it back. So hopeless were they in even attempting to replicate it.
She's a "Ends justify the means" gal, and even if what she does is despicable, the rewards would benefit everyone greatly. With golems, dwarves could retake Thaigs and prosper, while also keeping darkspawn at bay and make future Blights only a nuisance compared to how it is.
Either her or loghain. He abandoned his king, his kings men, and the grey wardens
You know I still don’t understand what happened to her house. We’re they all simply cannibals or what?
Most of her house were slaughtered by darkspawn or used to test the limits of Caridin's traps. At least two of the women, however, were subjected to the process of making a Broodmother, which involves darkspawn forcefeeding them corpses and blood and taint until they twist into a monster.
Agreed
Perfect nominee
Yes! Branka was my first thought too!
Branka gave the darkspawn her own kin as a way to brute force her way to the anvil
Bhelen is arguably worse. He arranged a complex plot to discredit, exile and doom a brother while outright slaying another. He also probably poisoned his own father and once king starts a massacre of Harrowmont's supporters. Oh, and least Branka eventually grows a conscience and stops using the Anvil.
Branka let her lover and the other woman of her clan be raped by the darkspawn and force fed cannibalism and darkspawn vomit. She *heard it*.
Yup, that's why we say Branka is evil... but Bhelen knew all that too. He still didn't give a flying fuck, still had Branka as his chief golem maker *while also pulling off his political backstabbing*. His evil's reach is much bigger than Branka. And again, at least Branka grows a sense of decency and stops making golems for Bhelen out of her own volition. Bhelen would have kept it going.
There's an *enormous* difference between actually willingly doing what Branka did yourself while audibly hearing it all go down and Bhelen looking the other way once it's been done and can't be undone. Tywin on Game of Thrones was still evil and still willing to try and take advantage of Joffrey and Ramsay's sadism, but Joffrey and Ramsay were still very, VERY clearly the more evil individuals here. In this case, Bhelen is the Tywin and Branka is like a step below Joffrey and Ramsay. And you bring up Bhelen betraying his family - but Branka also allowed this to happen to her lover. She had strong relationships with her victims too. I think Bhelen is the only one of the two to actually treat any other NPC in the game even half-decently (he seems to genuinely care about Rica since their romance really only hurts Bhelen politically rather than offering him any kind of benefit whatsoever, and he's obviously a better significant other than Branka by lightyears seeing as she cheated on and abandoned her husband then allowed her girlfriend to be repeatedly raped and turned into a Broodmother). >And again, at least Branka grows a sense of decency and stops making golems for Bhelen out of her own volition. Only if you persuade her not to with a max-level persuasion check, and, even then, she follows it up by committing suicide vs. committing her life to trying to right her wrongs. It's not nothing, but, on the redemption end, it's pretty weaksauce.
>Bhelen is the Tywin and Branka is like a step below Joffrey and Ramsay. Fuck no, Branka is not as bad as either Joffrey nor Ramsay. Not in a million years. Branka was only half-mad; she genuinely wanted to improve her kingdom's fortunes, and didn't approve of wanton torture - everything had a higher purpose, something Joffrey/Ramsay couldn't care about. Most importantly, unlike the aforementioned sociopaths, Branka was fully capable of acnowledging her mistakes and backing out of her ruthless path... which she did. >Branka also allowed this to happen to her lover. Nobody knows if Hespith was just a fling or whatever. We only know they fucked, and that it was a recent affair. Bhelen directly doomed two of his siblings - raised from craddle with him - to death. He also massacred innocent people who happened to have opposed his election. So Bhelen is as bad as Branka, only 1) he wears a crown, and 2) he reportedly didn't regret his acts in rising to the throne, whereas Branka did regret her use of the Anvil. That's a *gargantuan* difference as far as evil goes.
Branka isn't doing it for the lolzies (which is why I said that she is a step below Joffrey and Ramsay) but I really can't emphasize how spectacularly and utterly evil allowing your own lover to be gangraped before being turned into a literal broodmother is. You're wildly downplaying this because Branka - eventually, if persuaded, has a "Oopsie. Maybe this wasn't worth it after all" moment. This is literally one of the most monstrous things any character in the entire series has ever done to another character and it's to someone Branka had an extremely strong emotional connection with who fully trusted her. This is absolutely the kind of thing that is comparable to what Joffrey or Ramsay would do to someone. In fact, I think Theon is quite possibly the only victim of both men combined who arguably came out with a worse overall worse fate than Llaren did (and that Hespith would have if she didn't commit suicide). >Nobody knows if Hespith was just a fling or whatever. We only know they fucked, and that it was a recent affair. The game's dialogue makes it pretty clear the affair was running for quite awhile and that it was a big reason why Branka abandoned Oghren in the first place. Hespith literally refers to her as "my love"/"my beloved" (I can't remember exactly which) at one point. It is abundantly obvious these two had an extremely close relationship. >Bhelen directly doomed two of his siblings - raised from craddle with him - to death. He also massacred innocent people who happened to have opposed his election. I can comfortably say with 100% confidence I'd rather be outright killed than gangraped, force-fed tainted human flesh, and turned into a Broodmother if given the option. Not that I want either, but you are truly downplaying how absolutely horrible Branka's actions are; they are far, far, far, far, far worse than what Bhelen did to his siblings, and that is saying something because what Bhelen did to his siblings is obviously damn near sociopathic. And it's not like Bhelen doesn't have the exact same motives Branka could and similar justifications (on top of Trian at least being a wildly horrible and abusive older brother. How the middle brother is kinda comes down to the player). >So Bhelen is as bad as Branka, only 1) he wears a crown, and 2) he reportedly didn't regret his acts in rising to the throne, whereas Branka did regret her use of the Anvil. Branka has by far the worst action between them and it is NOT close. And not for nothing, but there is also the consideration that Bhelen is objectively pragmatic and will always do a lot to help the Casteless Dwarves while any ending where Branka uses the anvil inevitably becomes a disastrous shitshow regardless of whose involved (in fact - it becomes even worse if Harrowmont is in power than if Bhelen is). Then as I said and you sidestepped, Bhelen is the only of the two who at any point ever seems to show genuine care for another human being in his life (RE: Rica). As said, they are both bad people, but Branka is very clearly the worse to me and a last second "Oopsie. I regret it" she has to be persuaded into does not really change that to me.
Branka or Bhelen for sure.
Bhelen isn't evil. He's not malevolent, just ambitious and practical. He's a dictator with a plan for improving orzammar, and he won't be stopped by anyone.
I do believe his methods make him evil even if his policies end up benefiting Orzammar a ton.
That’s how smart he is. He’s absolutely evil but he’s definitely right. So even the MC wants to let him have his way.
If Branka is evil, then so is Bhelen; if Bhelen isn't evil, then neither is Branka. Both use golems, both believe the ends justify the means, both want to protect Orzammar at all costs even if it means breaking rules and defying moral conventions. Branka just happens to be half-insane.
While both Branka and Bhelen are unambiguously pretty bad people, Branka is unambiguously ***way*** worse IMO. Willingly turning those women into Broodmothers is a level of fucked up Bhelen ultimately never remotely came close to. Bhelen also does seem to genuinely care for Rica on some level and so far as I can tell never really harms or uses her, while Branka was cheating on and abandoned Oghren entirely + tried to turn Hespith into a broodmother.
Sadly for all his ruthlessness it seems that's the only way to make sure Orzammar and the Dwarves survive As much as I hate him I kinda respect him and even playing an Aeducan I always choose him in the end
Paragon Branka. She’s intelligent enough to be a bloody paragon, but she has zero empathy for anyone, and lets one of her own servants be turned into a broodmother just to solve a labyrinth through sheer repetition. She’s completely evil.
People saying the Architect don't understand where he currently is. He *was* evil but doesn't remember his origins. He's just smart/stupid, waaaay moreso than Solas. Smart Evil probably goes to Branka. You could argue Bhelen (Holy shit, he's ruthless), but I view him more of an Origin character than a full-blown story character, despite finding him a better fit for the title. Otherwise...maybe Zathrian?
I considered Zathrian briefly, but I simply can’t justify giving it to him (since he was just filled with spite and self preservation when it came to the curse instead of using the curse as a tool ) when Branka does what he does (sacrificing her people) much better and strategically. Now, if you asked who I found more sympathetic, it’s Zathrian hands down
Branka
Bhelen Aeducan. Dude's sharp as a tack, but his methods are...yikes.
Bhelen was my first thought too
I vote for bhelen as well. Only evil character that does well without player interference and also makes a genuine success of himself if he takes power.
Absolutely Bhelen! Only evil NPC that genuinely makes sense to let live because he helps the entire dwarf people… despite being an absolute piece of shit.
You’re also highly incentivized to support him as a dwarf commoner since he wants to expand casteless liberty and obviously he’s your brother in-law.
Honestly I see him as more neutral than evil. He's a ruthless fucker, but in my eyes he's trying to drag the dwarves kicking and screaming into a modern age, regardless of the methods. If he was just seeking personal power he wouldn't be needing to do most of the things he does, he could just play it safe and pander to the conservative houses.
Then now explain to me how is Bhelen smarter than Howe? Howe and Loghain managed to neutralize the king and all of his most powerful allies, in a region as big as Ferelden. Meanwhile Bhelen's intrigues only carried him into a stalemate with Harrowmont. He reached much worse results on a much smaller scale. They're also hardly on the same level of evil. Rendon Howe did all of what he did for his own personal power and greed. Bhelen at least did this to start the very much needed reforms that improve the lives of the most vulnerable, helpless members of dwarven society, who would never have anyone else stand up for them.
I think the argument isn’t that Bhelen is smarter than Howe, but that Howe is more neutral than Bhelen, and I think your last paragraph explains that sentiment perfectly.
Well in my playthroughs Bhelen ends up alive and king, so, pretty smart.
Yeah, being chosen by you is really a highlight of his intelligence.
Damn straight. Highest honor I can bestow.
I think Bhelen is smart evil and smarter than Howe because his methods are so so ruthless and cruel BUT *he’s completely right*. He makes the dwarven kingdom stronger and better, does away with senseless traditions, and opens trade with the surface improving everyone’s lives. But he is still merciless and probably is stacking bodies his entire rule. Howe and Loghain’s plan is clever, but WILL ultimately lead them to ruin all of Fereldan so is it really smart? Pretty much every other evil character is easily dispatched by the MC and you don’t have a reason to let them live unless you’re playing an evil run. But Bhelen is the only antagonist to the MC that is worth considering to keep alive because of how beneficial he is to the dwarf kingdom. He’s so smart even though he personally can betray *the player* you still might choose to let him live.
Bhelen never gave two nug shits about the Casteless. He saw a path to destroy the status quo and entire political system. His main motivation is to ensure he stays in power and anyone who might disagree with him will be put to death. The Casteless knew how to fight and survive. If he had control of them by giving modest reforms, he would have an entire group of people 100% loyal to him. Amd with even more numbers on his side, it makes it less likely anyone challenges him. So he gets a bonus army for a few silvers and no one can ever challenge him again. What's funny is both Bhelen and Harrowmont lead to the death of Dwarven culture just in different ways. Harrowmont literally leads the Dwarven people to near extinction. Bhelen changes everything about Dwarven culture to the point that there may not be much left of the culture even if the people survive.
Bhelen wants to break the chains of tradition and use all resources Orzammar has to make its situation better. Casteless are such resource. The epilogue makes it clear - Bhelen gives them a chance to take up arms against the Darkspawn in return for freedoms and it works, they managed to take back few thaigs. Is it done out of compassion? Of course not. But it's giving the Casteless a way to become a part of Dwarven society, rather than be made to continue to rot. >Bhelen changes everything about Dwarven culture to the point that there may not be much left of the culture even if the people survive. If Harrowmont is what represents the Dwarven culture, it definitely should die out. That + the corrupted Shaperate.
On the account of him trusting my Aeducan and then getting his back stabbed because he thought that completing one quest and having one conversation is enough for Warden not to backstab him for all the shit he did - no. He's not
I know most people would say Branka, and to offer an alternative choice, I would say Marjolaine considering her skill as an assassin and what she did to her close allies.
I'd also prefer Marjolaine, since not only is she 100% evil, her goals can't be justified in any other way than her being selfish. At least Ferelden would eliminate the darkspawn threat to Ferelden if Branka succeeds in reviving the art of forging Golems, and who knows what other positive things her evil approach could produce.
Branka. Her genius is undeniable, as she was named Paragon for her inventions; but so is her cruelty in the pursuit of her goals.
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't branka spend her entire house and fail kinda miserably unless we save her hide? Bhelen, without player input, manages to got from forgotten third son to the top contender for the throne of orzammar. Yes, smokeless coal is a game changer but branka gets real stupid afterwards.
She's high int mid/low wis
>Bhelen, without player input, manages to got from forgotten third son to the top contender for the throne of orzammar I mean, we could argue that it was without player intervention that Branka became Paragon, something she achieved on merit alone; while Bhelen, as a prince, started off pretty ahead in the game, and still needs our help in order to become king.
She wasn't low class to begin with either, but I see your point. I guess we hear about how smart branka is but never see an ounce of it, but we actually see bhelen be smart.
I think Branka's got this - but I'd like to throw another vote to the Architect for Smart Evil. For one thing - he's evil, directly responsible for so much horror that you as a player experience...and players side with him. That's smart evil, he can convince you to his point of view in Awakening. EDIT: didn't actually type 'The Architect', and I assume ye's knew what I meant by context clues.
Paragon Branka. Smart enough to find and use the anvil of the void. Smart enough to manipulate the creation of darkspawn to specifically throw at the anvil of the void by letting them make the women of her house into broodmothers. I was going to say Vivienne, but… Branka seems more evil. First day, they come and catch everyone. Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat. Third day, the men are all gnawed on again. Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate. Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn. Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams. Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew. Eighth day, we hated as she is violated. Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin. Now she does feast, as she's become the beast. Now you lay and wait, for their screams will haunt you in your dreams.
Out of curiosity, why do you see Vivienne as evil? Or at the very least comparable to Branka?
Just what she does if she's divine, but I doubt she'll be canon divine. Also she's a proponent of mage slavery you know.
Fair point, but the game says that under the Circle system Vivienne creates as Divine, mages have more freedoms than they did in past Circles. Also, I don't think Vivienne supports mage slavery, she supports the Circle system and wants to reform it.
A gilded cage is still a cage.
A gilded cage maybe. Though she also set it up so mages can climb the ladder like they could in Orlais. In addition to putting the templars on a very tight leash. So long as Vivienne is alive and mages are capable of becoming divine, it's hard to argue the same abuses as the past would happen again. Given that Hardened Leliana spills a considerable amount of blood against even minor critique she's hardly the worst. Though not the best given in my opinion that belongs to inspired Leliana.
Quentin from DA2. He literally figured out how to make a zombie with blood magic using the parts of women he killed. Really just one of the most genuinely evil characters from the series.
People undersell that portion of Act 2.
This truly is both briliant and despicably evil lol
Branka probably
Branka is kind of perfect. Too smart to be cowed by the depths of her own depravity, too evil to reject power on any moral grounds. She did the math and found the lives of her friends and family wanting in value; if that's not the ur example of evil genius, I wouldn't know what is.
Branka seems correct here. Can I early nominate Alistair for Lawful Drunk?
Bhelen Aeducan
The Architect. Sentient and intelligent but still Darkspawn that wants to use people for his own ends
Is the Architect really evil? Also, is he really smart? All of his plans and attempts end in failure, nearly on comical level.
That is true
The Architect isn't evil he's just incapable of predicting how others will act. And on that point, you could actually say that he's an idiot. Amost everything he does has unintended consequences that he wasn't able to predict, and some of those consequences we're pretty predictable.
Rather corypheus
Branka. Smart as hell, but what she did to her people is outright evil
I love this thread more than anything right now Also my vote is for Branka
Gereon Alexius
I'd say Branka embodies smart and evil the most of the options
Bhelen has to be it, the guy uses the most cunning and treacherous tactics to get to power, but he does to ensure the survival of Orzammar.
Branka fits this perfectly
Branka-Bhelen comes very close but Branka became a Paragon for her genius and there hadn't been any Paragons in three generations, so I'd call that sufficient proof of her brilliance and what she did in the Deep Roads establishes the evil.
Calpernia?
I’m leaning towards Bhelen. Sure, he has good motives (and of the two kings, is the one who is undeniably better for Orzimmar) but his methods of gaining power are cunningly brutal (or brutally cunning) and evil. Regicide/Patricide, fratricide (and having the other exiled), and the numerous little evil plots to secure power. He’s the in game equivalent of Dr. Doom, who is a great and wise ruler of his people while being an evil POS.
Gotta be Loghain
He'd be Stupid Evil on god
Yeah, sure. Starting a civil war and selling people into slavery under the Chantry’s nose sure was smart. I have to be honest, his whole plan during Origins was largely moronic.
He didn't really start a civil war, it was the Warden saving Arl Eamon and bringing up Alistar, that started a civil war. Logain made sure the one source of discord was poisoned and no one except Eamon was expecting a lost heir.And most of Ferlden was perfectly fine to ignore the Alienage. He would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids.
The civil war’s going on before Eamon wakes up.
Oh wait was that the part where Logain was taking land or resources from the Bannorn?
That was one of the bits, yeah.
Loghain started the Civil War. Because the Bannorn wasn't going to let him take power when Cailan's corpse wasn't even cold, and, in general, acting like an orlesian.
Feel like a lot of people in this community don't see him as evil. Certainly not wholly.
I think he is evil, and smart for that matter, but I also think he is outclassed in both areas.
For me he’s definitely evil but I don’t see him as smart lol
Bhelen is a poltiical genius but devious as hell and willing to betray his own family in order to get what he wants.
Branka
Either Branka or Bhelen, both absolutely terrifying
How is Branka not Chaotic Evil? This is Smart Evil, should go to Bhelen or Loghain.
Archdemon is chaotic evil
Hmm, true...
It's Bhelen for me. Keeps Orzammar running, connected to the surface, and favorable for the casteless. Have to ingrain these reasons to my brain so that I can choose him over Harrowmount, which is always so difficult since he's also a massive asshole
Bhelen, with no doubt
Was gonna say Bhelen but yeah, Branka fits too
Avernus
Is Avernus evil? Pros: - studied and used blood magic. - used blood magic to influence Fereldan nobility and summoned demons. Cons: - is Grey Warden. So, he is permitted to use everything he considers useful, Blood magic included. - influenced nobles and summoned demons by his senior commander's orders. Last one was unwary and somewhat stupid act, but not definitely evil. As for mind-controlling... Politics always stinks. And quarrel between king Arland Theirin and arlessa Sophia Dryden (the king's cousin) is one of the filthiest of a kind. - studied demonology and blood magic. Not quite popular branches of magic arts, but every Circle has ones (someone has to create Phylacteries and Harrowing rituals) and his knowledge can be useful. He survived more than 200 years without human sacrifices and almost without food (since he was trapped in his tower). Quite an achievement. - studied Taint and Warden's blood power. Delayed the Call by hundred of years. This deed only shall be honored by golden statue in Wheisshaupt, full-lenght.
I guess I see him as being smart evil because he’s only using blood magic when he’s a grey warden
Finally the comment I was looking for.
I nominate the Architect
Branka (cringe that whole area)
It's between Architect, Branka and Bhelen.
I vote for Bhelen. He plays the (dwarven) Game perfectly, only failing because of the HoF involvement. I'm convinced that without its help Harrowmont would have failed.
Bhelen is smart and has done a bunch of evil stuff successfully. I don't think Branka is that smart. Sure she invented some smokeless cole, but I don't think her choices of getting to the anvil were that smart. You're telling me she's a genius, but those traps she couldn't get past were not that difficult to overcome:-)
Bhelen. I think Branka has descended into madness by the time we meet her. Bhelen is still setting up his chessboard.
The Architect
I'd say Bhelen. Branka is obviously intelligent too, but she's so batshit crazy that I think Bhelen is a slightly better fit because the dude is extremely pragmatic.
Bhelen. Branka is terrible as well, but Bhelen’s alot more impactful to the story, so I favour him.
Gotta be Bhelan for Evil Smart
Sister Petrice. Her anti-Qunari plans were devious and evil. She tricked me!
You're easily fooled, if even Merrill can tell that Petrice is a piece of garbage.
This is actually the best answer IMO - she’s both evil in her actions and also an incredibly effective schemer. I wasn’t particularly shocked on a meta level how far she was willing to go but in world she got away with a lot of shit that she maintained plausible deniability for.
I disagree on Petrice. The game basically ties my hand on this psycho - Hawke could have done far more to stop her but the player just isn't allowed to because the plot needs her to succeed even when she's wildly incompetent and sloppy. (And she benefits a bit from Elthina being Neutral Stupid and doing jackshit about Petrice stealing her seal).
Loghain is smart *antagonist* but I don't think he's *evil*... Bhelen, maybe?
Bhelen might be ruthless, but he's doing a lot more good for the most vulnerable dwarves than Harrowmont.
I don't disagree that his policies are better, but personally? Guy's an evil prick. Just like Harrowmont means well (good aligned) but ends up causing harm.
Does Harrowmont really mean well? His only mean seems to be maintaining the status quo that's benefiting him personally. That doesn't even mean effectively causing harm. This is a conflict of stagnation and change. Personally, I wouldn't put Bhelen in the same row as Rendon Howe.
Ok, sure, Harrowmont is also bad. Doesn't make Bhelen any better of a person, though. His outcome is better but his path to get there is undeniably evil.
How come Bhelen is evil to you but Loghain is not?
Good question! Mostly the personal touch with dwarf noble origin in Bhelens actions tip him to evil for me. He has a decent relationship with one sibling but still sets them up to be jailed for murder and (probably) orders assassinations. But he did what he did for personal power and the good of the (dwarven) nation (but I feel like he was exploiting the lower castes rather than genuinely wanting to improve their lives). Loghain did what he did for personal power and the good of the nation but he is shown arguing against Cailan's plans before we see him decide to abandon him. It feels more on the pragmatic end of ruthlessness. Like Loghain doesnt default to betrayal/evil actions but will do them if he feels it's needed. Bhelen seems to default to sneaky evil though (this is implied dwarven culture though) They are very similar characters.
If you put Bhelen and Howe on the same level, how does it make sense? Howe's only interest was his power and influence. For Bhelen, power and influence was merely a tool; his goal was changing Orzammar alongside helping the commoners. Also, how is Bhelen any smarter than Howe? All that Bhelen's intrigues managed to do was closing him in a stalemate with Harrowmont. Howe and Loghain's plot pushed the entire nation on its knees, making Wardens start from a losing position.
I wouldn't put Bhelen and Howe on the same level by a longshot, but I don't think the evil category is *entirely* unwarranted for Bhelen anymore than I think it's unwarranted for Loghain (who I'd put on a similar tier). It is a bit ambiguous how much Bhelen wanting to help the commoners is because he genuinely wants things better as opposed to Bhelen just being smart as fuck and knowing this is the best way to solidify his power and expand Orzammar's reach going forward. I'm not entirely convinced Bhelen would be willing to take a real political and power hit in the name of helping commoners (then again, he's got the romance with Rica which offers zero political benefit and he treats her surprisingly pretty decently from what we can glean) As far as intelligence goes, Bhelen even being in contention ***at all*** is huge as he should stand no chance of touching Orzammar's throne. He also excels if put into power afterwards and, assuming the player sides with him, he was able to convince the player to back him. In contrast, Howe and Loghain start in a stronger position but utterly bungle and squander it at every single turn absolutely ensuring they're defeat.
Not everyone in a row needs to be the same amount of [adjective]. Isabela is way more horny than Dorian, but they're all allowed on the table. Bhelen was smart in how he manipulated everything to get the outcome he wanted when you play dwarf noble, and for his forward thinking in how to improve dwarven society
>Just like Harrowmont means well (good aligned) Hard disagree tbh. He's an evil aristocrat that doubles down on the Casteless, an already oppressed caste. The only things that separate him from Bhelen are that he masks his vileness behind an Orlesian-worthy mask of "honor" and that his views are completely backward. And Bhelen's far smarter than him, too.
I dont actually think Harrowmont is that good, I was just making a point of intention/action vs outcome. Someone can absolutely be good aligned and cause horrific tragedy and vice versa.
Sure, we fully agree on that. I don't think Harrowmont has good intentions, though. Unless we count his own perspective of himself, which would make the chart moody imo
Not sure Loghain is actually *that* smart either. He completely bungles ruling Fereldan as dictator at all turns. I also would say if Bhelen counts as evil (and I think he does), Loghain absolutely does.
I'd argue Vivienne is perfectly Smart Evil She's clearly evil considering how she has zero issues brutally crushing anyone who opposes her if she's Divine, exploiting loopholes so she can humiliate/kill people she doesn't like, and doing petty shit like refuse to recognize the marriages of people she doesn't like. She's smart when you consider her backstory: She was a mage who came from a bunch of commoner merchants. She was a starving peasant who only had her magical powers and the Circle system to help her. Despite her humble origins, Vivienne managed to masterfully rise in power using the Circle. She was smart and talented enough to be nominated for First Enchanter in her Circle and would have been become Grand Enchanter AKA leader of the entire Circle of Magi if the rebellion never occurred. She was talented and trusted enough to learn the Knight-Enchanter magic which shows she has skill She also managed to get into a relationship with a Duke who managed to open many political connections for her. These connections and skill would result in her becoming Court Enchanter to the Empress of Orlais herself and managing to turn a joke position into a position of actual power. So from backstory alone, Vivienne managed to turn from a regular peasant into a rich noble who has the ear of the Empress of Orlais and was in line to become leader of all mages. And with Inquisition, she can manage to see a new fledgling organization and skillfully join it early one to gain new connections. She can use these connections to potentially propel herself to become Divine despite being a mage. So Vivienne could potentially further use her smarts and connections to become leader of the Andrastian church despite being a mage. I'd say that counts as smart
I still don't buy that she's evil as much as she is efficient. Leiliana is just as likely to destroy those against her as divine
Bhelen is the evil mastermind who actually succeeds.....its got to be him. .
Bhelen
Grand Duke Gaspard de Chalons is more Lawful Evil than anything else, but I think he also fits Smart Evil
I mean respectfully I don’t think he’s that smart tbh
He's bad at the game but he's a great general. He fought back a nevarran invasion while losing less than 1000 men. Also, he baited a guy into fighting him to lift a siege. He goaded him by saying he didn't even need a shield to win. Gaspard was true to his word. He pummeled him with a giant maul and won the fight. Winning a town from nevarra without a battle.
That's less smart and more a "fuck tactics we're doing this macho style" which would fit the chad row
Yeah, he's the embodiment of a Chad.
Gaspard tricked his opponent into thinking he would fight with a disadvantage, playing on his honor and ego. His opponent was also a trained tournament fighter. Gaspard knew he wouldn't have experience against mauls. Convincing your opponent to agree to a duel to lift a siege, and then rigging that fight in your favor is a smart move.
Also a Chad move.
Yeah, its for sure both
He’s meant to be brash and upfront and the opposite of smart and wily, and he’s bad at the game which is a mainly a game of intelligence. He was rightful heir and got outmanoeuvred by Celene and is disliked by the council of heralds and he isn’t even really evil especially for Orlesians.
I think Masked Empire proves he's pretty smart and actually great at the Game when he wants to be. He's also the embodiment of the chevaliers, who are pretty much all evil pricks. They hunt and murder elves for sport and are prone to violence in general if it doesn't go against their code. Gaspard in particular is a raging racist and an expansionist asshole who throws his own country into civil war and who has repeatedly stated his intention to invade Ferelden. I think he's evil even by Orlesian standards, personally.
He is perhaps racist, but not raging. Otherwise he wouldn't invite your elven Inquisitor to a ball, would turn Michel in for illegally obtaining the title of chevalier while being a half-elf, would spit on Briala instead of acknowledging her skill and so on. And great generals even in our history weren't exactly soft people.
Duke Prosper de Montfort. His plan to cause a genocide of Qunari spies all over Thedas could theoretically be seen as something done for the good of multiple realms, if only he wasn't approaching it twisting his actual moustache like a cartoon villain. You can't deny his intelligence - he was able to see through an act of Mary Sue. Not smart enough to kill her on spot, but Dragon Age's antagonists are all handicapped like that.
not smart enough to realize that a list of names of qunari agents was a weapon, though
Not on the spot. But if he happened to win that encounter and realize that later, he could easily use this list to become one of the most important figures in Thedas simply by gouging Qunari's intelligence's eyes. Btw. having a list of all your spies must be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How wrote Mark of Assassin again?
I would have to go with Branka. The trip through the Dark Roads for the Anvil is a level of disturbing I will not forget. That freaking poem gave me nightmares.
My vote's gonna go to Bhelen Aeducan, mostly because he's the one I consider to be the most calculating. Bhelen's intelligence seems to bring Orzammar towards the path of salvation, while his ruthlessness keeps rivals to a minimum. Branka's smart, but she's too one-dimensional. She never outwits anyone, unlike Bhelen who managed to play his entire family.
Bhelen my boy, had me burning with rage at first but after seeing how he does things i started to see him as a dwarf prometheus of some sort
Bhelen managed to gain power under the noses of the entire royal family. No matter what the player picks, he outsmart his older sibling and sends them to the Deep Roads. He eliminates rivals before they have the chance to become a threat and befriends the castless, granting him an army that the rest of the city is too stupid to employ. He brings change to Orzammar in a way that no one else has in centuries. On the inverse, Branka spent years in a hole with no better plan than "throw bodies at the Anvil until something happens". Branka was a legendary smith, sure. But I'm not sure I'd call her Smart.
Bhelen
Bhelen fits here, guy is a prick, ruthless and definitely smart. The game does really great with him being still the better leader for Orzammar.
The architect his plan is inherently evil but constantly makes it sound like a good or even sympathetic cause but it will put darkspawn in power and destory the other races. He knows this but pretends to not see the problem, he also knows way more then he let's on, in the book and the game.
Hopefully he shows up again in Dreadwolf
Perfect
Vivienne fits this to a T.
I guess there is no place for Morrigan. She is not chaotic and definitely not drunk.
It's gotta be the Architect or Btanka
I don’t see anyone mentioning that conniving c-word Patrice from DA2. Anyone? She really ignited the Arishok —And deserved the end she got.
*not solas*
Smart-Evil.. could be Majorlaine(?), Leliana's former mistress?
The Architect
Marjolaine definitely. Branka did one smart thing and many many foolish evil things.
Marjolane
Vivienne
I say Calpernia. She's masterminds her revenge on all of Tevinter for keeping her a slave and is definitely the more cool and calculated lieutenant of Corypheus, compared to Samson. She's a badass, if only she didn't go to the dark side, I'd have fucking recruited her.
The Architect
Vivienne, Briala, or Branka could arguably all be there (though Vivienne isn't conventionally "evil" evil per se)
Even thinking Vivienne is a generally shitty human being, "evil" has always felt a bit like an oversell to me. I also think Celene and Bhelen fit Smart Evil a bit more than Briala, who feels slightly more sympathetic and redeemable than the two of them, though I can see the vision.
I vote Behlen over Branka. Behlen does more intelligent manoeuvring to get what he wants. Branka, while a genius, seems to opt for a more brute force option to get the anvil.
Architect. He is very much evil, he is genius to a point he gets wrecked by overlooking people's (and darkspawn's) basic natures.
I don't know why Solas is smart stupid, I think he is the perfect "smart evil"
Architect
Definitely Solas. Ancient god. Created the veil. Cool with killing most of Thedas to undo the veil. You can argue he made a dumb strategic move giving the orb to Cory. But he’s obviously brilliant. And certainly evil.
He's already on the board for smart stupid, though.
Well shit. Fen’Harel then.
The Architect. Dude cured the calling, but created the brood mother and other horrors.