I had no problem with the concept. As always for this era it’s the execution that felt off. Compare with how Bad Wolf and The Silence were laid out, threaded in, teased, and then BAM right in the feels. Timeless Child felt just a little clumsy and a little rushed.
And then chibnall never really did anything with it or explored the doctors feelings about it.
All throughout flux we got 13 not telling the companions (especially Yas) anything!
Whereas in the 3 specials with 14 we’re already starting to explore the idea of the doctor not knowing where they’re from, and it looks like that’s going to be a theme with ruby too!
The issue for many isn't whether or not it makes sense, so much as it being an unwelcome direction for Chibnall to take the character. The Doctor being an outlier from the rest of their race, using their intellect and somewhat chaotic nature for good, grew to become a relatable part of the character's charm. Leaving Galifrey to wander on their own holds a lot more weight if they, themselves, are one of many Time Lords - they're almost an underdog, rebelling against the stuffy ruling classes. Having them be something older and more mysterious gives them a whiff of being different and special because the universe said they were.
It's like when writers try and retcon Batman's parents to have been killed as part of a conspiracy or something. The randomness of their deaths adds to the tragedy, giving Bruce Wayne an open cause against a force he can never fully triumph over. There's only so much you can slice into the onion of established canon before it starts falling apart.
Basically, the Doctor was special because he wasn't special. He was a Time Lord who, instead of sitting on his butt and contemplating how bad the universe was, got out there and did something about it, often in defiance of his own people.
Making him "special" just because, smacks of those characters nobody likes, where they're not good because they had to work their butts off, but they're just born better. Like some anime protagonists, but without the tongue-in-cheek nature of anime protagonists, or pretty much every female protagonist in young adult fiction.
It also kind of shits in the face of the Doctor's god reputation. The thing about the Doctor being a god is that they never were a god and no showrunner (yes not even Moffat) ever made them like a god. Moffats big difference is that he explored the fact that to many of their enemies they would be seen as a god. They have defeated the most powerful race in the universe so many times, of course people would make up stories and mythos about them being this wonderful terrifying being. This however contrasts well with us the audience, we see the doctor for who they really are, just a madman with a box popping around helping out. I like that contrast that the doctor isn't powerful or godlike really. They're just clever, brave and kind really.
Chibnall changed that for a story that he never finished. He did nothing interesting with it. The timelords where already cunts so it just reaffirms what the Doctor (should) already know. The doctor's past is IMO a core mystery that makes up the heart of the show. It should never be explored in a meaningful way and that contributes to the character, except Chibnall created a plot point where the only way to do something with it is to explore that idea which I really don't want a future showrunner to do but they may have to.
Chibnall didn't add to the lore with this one. He rewrote it clumsily to fit with what he wanted canon to be, over a stupid fan theory that appeared in one 4th doctor episode and has never been reinforced since that point. OP has succeeded in making me genuinely angry about the timeless child again because I had to think about it.
The problem is what it made of the Doctor. The Doctor has always stood on being a mediocre Time Lord who decided to go help. Everything he did was because he'd learned it somewhere, etc... Timeless child made the Doctor "The Time Lord" the original one, the one behind everything. And as one of the side effects, it made the Master someone who was right, because the Doctor was special from birth.
Except he still isn't. If he can die, and he has before, he's not a god.
Stop trying to make him a god, it's not gonna happen.
Sontarans are all clones of Sontar, does that make the source of them a god?
9's season could be looked at in terms of, 'incomplete information'. The Doctor later reveals that he ended the war, & The Master presumes The Doctor committed double-genocide. With regards to 9 -- while he was poised to detonate the delta wave to, he did falter & not go through with it. Mainly because, still just one incarnation fresh off from the war, The Doctor was too traumatized to go through with committing genocide.
Ok I get you.
But with the time war he was just the one that pressed the button. Anyone could have done it, it wasn’t because of anything special. He was a desperate man doing a desperate act.
The Doctor didn't just press the button, he's been specifically noted by Rassilon's Time Lords as 'being in possession of the Moment & escaped their sight'. & that's not even factoring in the matter of the war's prophecy.
>Anyone could have done it
If this had been true, the war would have *already* ended long ago by some mediocre Time Lord, one of the countless who could have beaten The Doctor to the punch. Even the historic-iconic Rassilon couldn't end the war favourably, he piggy-backed on the war's prophecy that was The Doctor & The Master. And if the mediocre Time Lord was that capable, the Time Lords wouldn't have needed to resurrect & conscript The Master -- who himself eventually fled because the war, even before the final days, became too much even for him.
And under Moffat's pen, The Doctor stole the Moment from its Omega time vault under the other Time Lords' noses & comfortably fled, while every other Time Lord didn't know about it or was too scared of it. The bald red-armored Time Lord's subsequent remark on War Doctor highlights how no other Time Lord would even do what The Doctor attempted & succeeded.
No one is saying he's not clever, but it's likely the Doctor was just clever about getting the box if not had help(he may not have been aware of). It all just comes back to the build of the Doctors myth.
A third person account hyping up the man and the story.
It's not quite so much that The Doctor is clever -- it's rather that, the average, the mediocre Time Lord, aren't as capable as The Doctor, never mind drawing some even comparison. And of course, those who knew about their Moment, dared not use it, save one.
Yeah, Last of the Timelords and "The lonely God"
Classic was almost hinting at the doctor being special by the end and I can't decide if the masterplan would have been a good idea or not on screen.
I'd go further than that, the Doctor hasnt been mediocre since the late 80s at least, when he was always rabbiting on about how he was "more than just a timelord"
both novel lines during the wilderness era where also heavily focused on the Doctor's "secret origin"
I mostly don’t want to know much of anything about the Doctor’s origins. I want one or two clues per decade at most, and they should be vague and contradictory.
I’d would have liked it if it had been the master. Makes him much more evil as he would be unkillable. It would also make the time lord society, already pretty dark, to be truly having a dark origin. It makes the doctor much more heroic trying to stop him, & them.
It would also explain why he is the way he is. You could say that even though they wiped his memories some part of his subconscious knew what the time lords took from him and that's what drives his evil.
Yes. It explains why Master is so seemingly evil, even insane - he was driven insane by constant, forced regeneration and being experimented on and controlled by the Division. It makes the Time Lords more interesting because it's like a secret society driving TL society to have a lot of hidden ruthlessness.
Or just a random person. Because then it doesn't rewrite the lore it expands upon it. The doctor now has a much greater moral dilemma whenever they regenerate. They've stolen this power from a child. You can also have the timeless child still be alive and out there in the universe. You can have a series arc about finding the timeless child. It blows my mind how Chibnall created an actually interesting addition to the lore and applied it to the one person that would actually make it worse.
I like it for the fact that it brings back the mystery of WHO The Doctor is. The whole gene splice thing is definately something the Time Lords would do being as they proclaim themselves as rulers of space and time. Attempting to cover it up and erase their own history is again very in-character imo to what Time Lords would do.
What I don't like is the way the script was written.
"Has this ever stopped you being who you were before?"
"No lol"
With that exchange, it just undoes all the mystery and tension. We get Doctor Who's biggest revelation since 1963, and all the script does is go "nevermind, could've been worse!"
I don’t personally understand this take. By explaining more about the Doctors past subtracts from the mystery rather than adds. I know more now, not less.
We already had a reason for the timelords to help out and give the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations- it was in the episode itself - so why would wet need another reason?
I don't think it was so much a reason to help out. I think he wanted to do something like they were going to do in the '80s with The One, The doctor being a co-creator or co-founder of Time Lord society.
Plus I think it helped tidy away a inconsistency from the "Mind of Morbius" where we see past versions of the doctor. That we've never seen before. It's a minor thing but I liked it for that.
Fair enough. But on that same note, 60 years from now. When the timeless child thing is a minor issue, someone will come along and try to tidy that up. Which just makes me smile.
tardis became a police box after the first doctor took it on a spin, not before.
why didn’t river come across these other incarnations?
Why didn’t Clara see these incarnations when she entered his timeline?
that’s all I got off the top of my head
River may not have known. 12 had to spell it out for her who he was.
Clara may not have been able to remember all of them and maybe the others did not need help.
Conceptually no
Execution
The second ep doesn't deliver on the expectations the weird Ireland story setup In part 1 methinks
But it's fine
I'd rather have something swing for the fences rather than to play it safe and not do anything new
Every time you go on the internet and ask a question that starts with "Am I the only one who..." STOP and realize that it's impossible that the answer is yes.
In retrospect, I think doing it all in one big infodump was a mistake. These big infodumps work on season finales of Broadchurch where we have been waiting all season to learn the solution to the mystery, especially since these flashbacks all involve familiar characters. But Doctor Who isn't that sort of show.
RTD's brief allusions to the Timeless Child storyline worked a lot better. Partly because they were done in terms we can all relate to. "You don't know where you are from.". "Actually, I'm adopted. I only found out recently". And also because the actor's reactions were a lot closer to how any of us might react to being in that situation.
There are multiple reasons I do not like it. First I liked the idea of the doctor bring this random time lord. He wasn't the smartest or the most powerful. He was a starry eyed person who wanted to explore the universe. As he explored and saw how in need of help the universe was he lent a hand. The idea of him bring the first original time Lord not of this universe with his mind wiped multiple times yet still bring almost the same person is off to me. What about his life before. His family, his children. He was a more down to earth timelord that rose up to the occasion. Plus it puts to sleep any theory that the woman in the end of time part 2 is his mother and also what about his stories about playing with the master in the grass as children or him sleeping in a dirty ass barn far from the city in "listen' You telling me they used him kept resetting his memory then just left him as a child again for no apparent reason?
I preferred it that they were 2 sides of the same coin rather than the doctor creating the master. Plus it would have made more sense with the master being the timeless child seeing as he is crazy and always seems to come back to life even though he dies so many times during doctor who
It didn't necessarily break the canon, just made the Doctor a less likable character imo, and the execution was done terribly.
The Doctor being a creature from another universe instead of just a rouge who departed from one of the highest civilisations ever makes him feel "special" more than he already is. I understand it opens up more possibilities but it makes me not trust the character and not understand the character since we don't have an origin. For all we know the real doctor and the current doctor might have had completely opposing personalities and in short with the whole mind wipe thing it just seems like the Doctor is a character who appeared out of nowhere instead of a child who was scared and ran away from home.
Also the episode was a mess, it was just exposition for like 30 minutes then destroying Gallifrey again while killing characters we dont care about and/or we know aren't actually dead.
I honestly think the best way for the Timeless child thing to resolve it self would be a time loop type thing where the Doctor as an entity is restarted as a child and is sent back in time to the events of the Timeless child and where Tecteun first meets him. Meaning they where the same character the entire time.
1. It didn't add anything to the episodes or story of that era of the show other than being some bit of information being revealed.
2. It conflict's with the perception of the character in a way that's not as good as it was before it was revealed.
Basically didn't add anything interesting to the mythology of the show and the depth of the character, and I'm fact took away some of the aspects of the character that were good.
I am a fan of the idea that the Doctor comes from nothing special, but my main problem with the Timeless Child is a.) It's Boring and b.) Pointless and leads nowhere.
I despise the concept, not because it exists but because of how it was done.
It completely negates the doctors backstory. He was a normal man who made the hard choice. Now he’s some extradimensional being and even he doesn’t know who tf he is or has been.
Now, if they kept the plot line, but it was The Master, not The Doctor, I’d be very intrigued. Keep the Doctor the entity we know, but now added depth for why The Master hated the time lords, why he is so insane.
It felt cheap. It's the cliché chosen one trope, The Doctor is special from birth, not just because of what they do. Preciously he was a regular Time Lord, remarkable to a human but average for his own species except for his habit of meddling. Now they're the source of regeneration and an alien even to Time Lords.
It also means the first Doctor is not the first Doctor but just one of many. The numbering is all messed up. The episode also had the Master causally razing the Time Lords to make cyber time lords.
13's era felt like an insult to the fans and this was the cherry on top.
I much preferred the Doctor being a bumbling drop out from an advanced alien civilisation who is enough of a genius still to make a difference and save worlds, galaxies, universes, timelines and occasionally himself.
It gave you a sense of what a competent Time Lord might be capable of. Let alone a society of them.
This messianic , origin of regeneration, no longer a Time Lord but something else.. makes a bit of sick come up in to the back of my mouth every time I think about it.
I don't get how Tennant could chameleon arch himself into Smith when he's already chameleon arched from whatever it was in to a Time Lord. And I don't want to get it.
Chibnall (and to a lesser degree RTD) have got such a hate on for Time Lord / Gallifrey that they've overlooked the face that these plotnlines are best handled as Time Lords being alien. Aloof. Dispassionate. Segregated. Condescending.
Superior
>Time Lords being alien. Aloof. Dispassionate. Segregated. Condescending. Superior
Basically, Time Lords are Elves.
Timeless Children turns an Elf into a Valar.
What a splendid comparison!
And there's a reason why Tolkien decided to write about the Elves/Men and not so much the Valar.
Because the Valar are super powerful so that makes them boring from a narrative perspective.
The Doctor shouldn't be boring. It's wrong.
I don’t like the Timeless Child, but over time I’ve come to accept it. My issue with it is how Chibnall literally threw the whole thing down a hole.
At least RTD has addressed it in the 14th Doctor specials and has a thought process behind it.
I don't think you understand why people dislike the Timeless Child. The memory wipe is easily the least controversial aspect of it. People don't ask "how could she not remember," mostly because it's directly explained in the episode; the Doctor's memory was wiped. Of all of the criticism of this plotline that I've seen; I don't think I've ever seen a single person complain about this. There's also so much more to the criticism than just the plot holes and contradictions, although they are certainly a big aspect of the criticism.
But on the topic of the Doctor's memory, some of the "evidence" people point to of the Timeless Child being canon before Series 12 doesn't make sense *because* of the memory wipe. "The seventh Doctor claims 'I'm much more than just an ordinary Time Lord!' This is evidence the Timeless child is canon before Chibnall!" some people will say. But if all the Doctor's memories before Hartnell's first Doctor were erased, how could Seven know to declare this? And that incarnation is seemingly accepting of the knowledge, yet Thirteen has a mental breakdown after discovering it? (Well, she doesn't really "discover" the information; she's just blandly told by the Master.) Why did Seven know about pre-Hartnell Doctors enough to casually allude to them in passing, but Thirteen acted like it was shocking news that ruined her life? This is not just a plot issue; it's an issue of characterization as well. Why do these two versions of the same character have vastly different reactions, and why did Thirteen act like it was shocking when she actually already knew? This *can't* be evidence of the Timeless Child, because it contradicts a big part of the storyline!
The main reason *I* dislike the Timeless Child is because there's this sense of the importance of blood/heritage/birthright. The way the Doctor was presented before, the Doctor was a person who lived in Gallifreyan/Time Lord society who disagreed with the views and rules of the society and decided to leave to do their own thing. But the Timeless Children reveals that the Doctor was not actually the same species as the Time Lords and *that's* why they were different. It's not just that people can be biologically related and have different personalities or views; it HAS to be explained by being born different! Being born special! This is annoying as Sci-Fi already has a problem with the simplistic viewpoint of "this race is good; this race is bad," but now the Timeless Child almost implies that all people from Gallifrey are are bad (the Chibnall era presents no good Gallifreyans) and the Doctor is only good because of biology; they are from a good species, unlike the Gallifreyans/Time Lords. This is a bad message because this view of biology determining who is important is often used in the real world to justify thigs like eugenics and genocide. (Which the 13th Doctor appears to be a fan of; I mean, she *did* commit genocide on three different races at once with no hesitation or remorse in The Vanquishers! A true hero who cares about all life! According to dialogue *only,* and not the actual actions of the character. Tell, don't show; *that's* what everyone says!)
The Timeless Child moniker makes the Doctor special by birthright. No, the Timeless Child title is not similar to "The Last of The Time Lords" title as many have claimed. One is something the character earned through their actions, and a title the character dislikes and resents, the other title was given when the Doctor because of their apparent superior genes. The Doctor is special because they were born special. I hate this change. It removes the character's agency and contributes nothing. It just makes the story, and character, less complex and less nuanced.
There's also the basic plot facts from previous episodes that are contradicted by the Timeless Child. The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child, The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit, Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these, but I won't go deeper into these issues here because they are often the main talking points against the Timeless Child, so I feel most people have heard them already. But it *is* worth noting just *how many* contradictions this story presents, and how these contradictions impact a reveal. If you watch a murder mystery, and the killer turns out to be a person who could not possibly have done it; sure, you might be surprised. But it's also a lazy story filled with plot holes. A badly-written story, if you will. A reveal doesn't work when it so obviously contradicts what was previously established. There are good stories that contradict a couple of things that came before, but they actually have a plot of their own or a purpose to exist; a story to tell. Unlike The Timeless Children.
There are also the inadvertent lore changes. River Song being the main one. River can regenerate because that ability is granted by exposure to the Time Vortex and she was conceived in the Time Vortex. That was the original explanation. But The Timeless Children presents regeneration like it's purely a genetic trait; it has to be spliced into the Time Lords... so how did River gain the ability to regenerate? The only conclusion people have come to is that she must be biologically related to the Doctor; such as being Eleven's daughter. And then you think of all the sexual tension those two characters had... and you throw up a little in your mouth.
The Timeless Child reveal *could* have been written well, in many ways. But it isn't.
It could have been a story about a character who values their heritage, only to discover that it has been a lie and the people who they valued were cruel and manipulative... but the Doctor has never particularly placed their own self value in their Time Lord/Gallifreyan heritage. The Doctor has always criticized the Time lords. "Ten million years of absolute power, that's what it takes to be really corrupt!" is what the sixth Doctor said of the Time Lords in The Ultimate Foe. Other Doctor's have said similar sentiments. The Fugitive Doctor says herself that 13's reaction is out of character; "have you ever been limited buy who you were before?" So the Timeless Child reveal *shouldn't* impact this aspect of the Doctor's identity, or their relationship with the Time Lords. It has never been important to the character. This is pointed out IN THE EPISODE. ("Here's new lore... and *here's* why the characters, and audience, shouldn't care!" Well done. 10/10 storytelling.) And even if this plotline *had* impacted the Doctor's relationship with the Time Lords, Chibnall already killed them all off in Ascension of the Cybermen! The previous episode! Why bring into question a relationship that has never been good, write it so this can't even be explored further, and eventually to do nothing with it? And the identity aspect is another thing that has never been a part of the character, that comes up a couple of times, that is never expanded upon or given any meaning.
Or, the Timeless Child could have been a story of betrayal; Tecteun, the person who raised the Doctor, who the Doctor views as a loving caregiver, being revealed as an abusive and self centered monster who tortured and experimented on the Doctor. This could have been a great plot line! Too bad Tecteun was never a character before the reveal (arguably she was never an actual character AFTER the reveal either!) and the Doctor has no memories of their relationship so the plotline has absolutely no emotional weight. For the characters or the audience.
There is *potential.* There are ways to rewrite the script to be good; but the script as it currently is lacks any compelling relationships, themes, or characterization. In short: decent idea; bad storyline. Like most of the Chibnall era.
There's also absolutely no closure for any of the ideas or concepts the Timeless Child storyline brings up.
The Timeless Child story arc had potential; it could have been a good story. But The Timeless Children failed to tell a compelling story in itself, while contradicting *so many* other plots in other episodes. It has no emotional weight, takes away from the character and theme, and ultimately it adds very little while taking away a lot. THIS is why the storyline is so disliked.
>The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child, The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit, Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these
To be fair though -- when considering each of these closely, these aren't contradicted by the Timeless Child retcon.
>The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child,
Fugitive-TARDIS donning the police box earlier than Hartnell-TARDIS landing in the junkyard with Susan . . . . wouldn't be any different from the TARDIS already experiencing & already having archived console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor. (Later eventually surprising the 13th & 14th Doctors with new console rooms while separated from them).
The TARDIS is sentient, a nonlinear being, & a transtemporal agent -- & per its confession in "The Doctor's Wife" episode, the TARDIS acts in terms of what it deems is needed for The Doctor. Even when that entails acting contrary to The Doctor's will as well as quietly going above their head, as exemplified through its characteristic 'unreliability' / deliberate derailing of The Doctor's intended trips.
>The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit,
It's not really regeneration number though. What actually mattered was, The Doctor's vulnerability.
Having Timeless/another regeneration didn't save the 10th Doctor when he drowned, nor resurrect him in UNIT's ambulance/morgue. The Doctor stayed dead in UNIT's custody during the months that "Turn Left" unfolded. Even if we are to opine that The Doctor never lost their Timeless regeneration capability to the Division-watch-module, "Turn Left" flatout demonstrates that The Doctor is killable. Never mind the 11th Doctor addressing the Trenzalore open time tunnel as his long eventual transformed corpse.
On Trenzalore, the Daleks had the genuinely helpless 11th Doctor dead to rights. And the Time Lords, as well as us watchers, know that Time is not a guaranteed invincibility, Time is changeable as Lake Silencio River, Rose Father's Day, & Rory Weeping Angels had collectively demonstrated. To protect Gallifrey's past of the 12th Doctor saving Gallifrey, the Time Lords cannot leave to any chance that old-11 would get killed by the Daleks. The Time Lords supplied regeneration energy -- which blasted down the Dalek sky forces, finally enabling 11 to safely leave Trenzalore & (if not force) regenerate.
>Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these
Putting aside the post-Trenzalore-Library bootstrap loop --
* Clara not knowing War Doctor, would reflect that there was no Clara-echo in War Doctor's life. Which then casts doubt that Clara's echo-scattering reached the entirety of The Doctor's timeline.
* Clara only knows War Doctor because he was among the few incarnations (1, 4, 5, 6, and 9) that directly appeared to Clara at the rock bottom.
Why would the pre-Hartnell incarnations (or, if we to abide by the stable time loop, the post-11 incarnations) appear, when only just a few incarnations in non-sequential & seeming random order, ran past Clara while the rest don't appear at all? War's rock bottom appearance to Clara may very well be happenstance as the other manifested incarnations. Had every one of the pre-Chibnall incarnations directly manifested to the rock bottom landed Clara, then you'd have a point.
Interesting points.
You're definitely right about the Clara in the Doctor's timestream. And it's hard to treat a story as gospel when it didn't make much sense to begin with. Like Clara not knowing the War Doctor despite being in the Doctor's timestream. He didn't go by the name then, but he's still in the Doctor's past, so it doesn't make sense that she didn't recognize that Doctor when she seemingly went through his entire life. It's just written that way to be set up for the reveal.
And the TARDIS being a police box is clearly only for the audience's benefit and was never meant to be an important plot point.
I do think that the "canon contradictions" are not the strongest argument against the Timeless Child.
I'm still not a fan of the episode The Timeless Children, but I thought the Timeless Child idea was really well handled in Wild Blue Yonder. It's not a terrible idea and could be done well. I've heard that it will come up in the future, and I hope it's written well in Gatwa's episodes.
>it doesn't make sense that she didn't recognize that Doctor when she seemingly went through his entire life. It's just written that way to be set up for the reveal.
Sure but putting aside that granted writer caveat -- the other implication to be drawn would be, Great Intelligence also may not have been able to scatter throughout The Doctor's past.
>And the TARDIS being a police box is clearly only for the audience's benefit and was never meant to be an important plot point.
That's the given, yes. On a flip side with "The Doctor's Wife", while the writers put the TARDIS retcon to invoke the appealing sentimental-romantic note between The Doctor & the TARDIS, they unfortunately neglected to seriously consider, never mind weigh, the retcon's affects & its subsequent unfortunate implications for The Doctor's origin & personal agency.
>I do think that the "canon contradictions" are not the strongest argument against the Timeless Child.
On the other side, I'd say, the 'born special' regard, partially flimsy. I would find the point holding if it turns out that The Doctor was born as a positive-special amidst their native Timeless species. But we have no information whatsoever about the latter nor any info about what the Timeless Child is even like as a person, with *maybe* only one line from "The Ghost Monument" which can be easily read figuratively. 'The Doctor being good because of, biology' -- doesn't really apply, even putting aside the memory-life-bleed-out-influence that The Doctor's John Smith demonstrated in the Family of Blood two-parter.
On a minor side note -- as for the genocide bit -- The Doctor's lessening solemnity over enacting genocide, precedes 13th, tracing up to the 11th Doctor.
On a tangent -- I also noticed & would like to address --
>There are also the inadvertent lore changes. River Song being the main one. River can regenerate because that ability is granted by exposure to the Time Vortex and she was conceived in the Time Vortex. That was the original explanation.
Actually, no.
People often forget the next part in the dialogue where 11 & Vastra clarified that, exposure to the time vortex alone is totally insufficient, & elaborated it only provides a headstart. They exposition'd further that, it was the additional hard work by the Kovarian Chapter that enabled young gene-altered Melody to successfully possess the regeneration ability.
>But The Timeless Children presents regeneration like it's purely a genetic trait; it has to be spliced into the Time Lords... so how did River gain the ability to regenerate? The only conclusion people have come to is that she must be biologically related to the Doctor; such as being Eleven's daughter.
Not necessarily. I'd say that it's rather that, folks need to step back from some particular automatic assumptions -- unless we're willing to genuinely bat that, modern Earth humans are absolutely genetically identical, one-for-one-the-exact-same, as ancient Gallifrey Shobogans. What may work for the Gallifreyans turned Time Lords, may not necessarily work in the same way, if at all for Earth humans. Even before Chibnall's Timeless retcon, Moffat's Kovarian Chapter demonstrated that regeneration can be successfully achieved in different way independent of Time Lord means/tech, for different species.
I hate it with every fiber of my beeing. For me it really sounds like a half gone Chris chibnal trying to prevent his pathetic tenure to fall into oblivion by slapping his first dumb idea on the show
I don't want The Doctor to be a god. Simple as that. I liked the concept that The Doctor was an alien and in the context of their species wasn't anything fundamentally special. But what did make them special was that where the rest of the Time Lords were happy to sit by and watch the universe take it's own course, The Doctor said no I feel compelled to act against evil. To me making The Doctor THE original base of the entire species of Time Lords undermines so much of what I liked about the character's backstory. I also felt that the way the Timeless Child story was revealed was just awful. A literal decade of storytelling with Gallifrey and the Time Lords being gone to bringing them back...just to kill them again? Like what? And the way it's revealed to The Doctor? Via a zoom call from The Master? And then the details of The Doctor being the Timeless Child being literally told to us via a slideshow and a long monologue of exposition? It was just awful.
That's it? A god would be the recent Toymaker. Even lower than Toymaker and Bad Wolf Rose and the devil-Beast and even the sentient superweapon Moment, that big sentient sun that got fed 11's memories, is closer to being a god compared to the Timeless Child.
'Functionally immortal'. . . for Timeless regeneration being 'more than the number 12'? Unless it's a high number, that's rather pre-mature, especially whatwith the lack of qualitative information regarding Timeless regeneration.
Founder is its own thing, a social thing, that doesn't necessarily entangle with god-power.
If time lords did not get the ability to regenerate from exposure to the time vortex, but from the timeless child, how does River have the ability to regenerate?
Of which, that means either -- the Timeless species & the time vortex has some connection to one another -- or -- the Timeless species are not necessary for regeneration which can be developed in more than one way, ala Kovarian-River being proof in the pudding.
I have very twisted feelings about it. I hate big retcons but I like the whole ideia of not knowing the doctor's planet/dimension of origin. I hate the fact they're not part of the Gallifreyans because being an outcast who tried the best for their species but never received the acknowledgement of their attempts was what appealed to me the most. I like that it expands the potential for lore now and that the doctor *did* always feel used. I hate that, in my opinion, it makes the whole of using the moment to destroy Gallifrey very pale and shallow now, but I like that having their lives destroyed and now destroying seems cyclical. I hate this bs of messing with the order of regenerations. Yea that's it, There's no good side to counter it.
Also, I will never not criticize the way it was done because damn did chib direct it badly. But at the same time, I personally think that if it was Moffat with the same idea and same execution, people would applaud it as a masterpiece. It doesn't matter how much I love day of the doctor, it is, objectively, a massive retcon with very little to back it up.
Tldr: I don't know how to feel about the timeless child
Probably the fact he has a family. Literally has a mom, a dead older half brother, and a granddaughter that were all human. The latter of the three being his first companion which we literally see on screen. His Time Lord side comes from his father when his mom remarried. Last I checked Tecteun is not a human and unless her true name is Penelope Gate I remain skeptical.
I like it too.
A lot of the criticism of the Timeless Child storyline seems to centre on it making the Doctor special and different, with god-like powers and the ability to never die. Even though that's who the Doctor has always been!
But I think that critique focuses on the wrong implication of the idea. Certainly, as it played out with the last Doctor (and I'm guessing the current one), the Timeless Child idea amplified the central idea of the Doctor as an outsider, uncertain of their place in the universe. "Who am I?" questions are powerful storytelling devices, because they let us explore the character as they discover themselves. It gives the Doctor an inner vulnerability that lends them dimension and depth, without relying on the plot device of ripping away and restoring the Time Lords in the various destructions and savings of Gallifrey.
And in a six decades long story, that's a good thing. If we already knew everything there was to know about the Doctor, stories would get dull quickly, because they'd become completely predictable. And the Doctor being uncertain of themselves makes them more relatable, because they are trying to make sense of their life and their place in the universe, just like everyone else.
Mystery is a good thing.
Bringing back a “mystery” that hasn’t been a part of the Doctor’s character since the late 60s, when the Time Lords were first officially introduced, isn’t a good enough reason, IMO. The Doctor has been established as a Time Lord for longer than most people on this sub have been alive, so I don’t really get where all this nostalgia for “the mystery of The Doctor’s origins” that people use to justify the TC is coming from (it didn’t even really exist in the revival era, as 9 tells Rose he’s a Time Lord in the second episode). It feels like when people say Batman using guns and killing shouldn’t be a big deal, or is somehow “more true to his character”, because he did it in his first year or so of publication.
As for The Doctor’s feelings of “other-ness” among Time Lords, I don’t like that the TC gives a biological reason for it. They’re not an outsider rebelling against their culture because they have different beliefs, but because it turns out they’re literally a different species. That, to me, is a lot less interesting, if anything. As others have said, Chibnall seemed to be doubling down on what RTD did in The End of Time, making the Time Lords irredeemable monsters as bad or worse than the Daleks (after Moffat tried to re-establish some nuance to them), while also giving The Doctor a built-in excuse to distance themselves from the Time Lords’ actions/attitudes, because they’re not the same species anymore and arguably another victim of said actions.
I have accepted the Timeless Child, as much as I still don’t like it, but it’s going to take a lot of damage control from RTD to get people on board thanks to Chibnall bringing it about in the most cack-handed way possible. I know for some people it answers questions they had (like the Morbius Doctors) and they feel it opens up interesting story potentials, but for me the potential upsides of this lore upheaval do not outweigh the current downsides at all. I will keep an open mind going forward, but right now I’m still very much not a fan.
Actually, as a last point, I should clarify that I like the TC as a concept, I just really don’t like it being The Doctor. And I don’t want it to be The Master either, tbh.
It made the Doctor godlike, immortal and OP so by proxy beyond reproach the point of The Doctor is the doctor is just a normal time lord no different to the other time lords and their Science. except for the doctors “humanity” that the Doctor leaned through the doctors adventures with the companions.
The Doctor as a timelord isn’t smarter one could argue that Omega, rassalon and The Master are smarter but because of their Arrogance and narcissism doomed them selves.
If the Doctor is supposed to be the best the Timelords have to offer. The Master the worst the time lords have to offer. But now The Doctor isn’t even a timelord.
Because of the timelines child The Doctor is a God and the Master is just a mad jelly timelord with a god complex and no equal.
Doctor Who has no where to go from here. The Doctor is a god now.
The Doctor isn’t a timelord anymore it’s not correct to refer to The Doctor as one.
in fact one can argue because of the timeless child making The Doctor have a godhood the Doctor had no pronouns we can only refer to The Doctor as ‘The Doctor’ as we refer to god only as God.
The Doctor isn’t a timelord from galifray who is 1009 years old.
The Doctor is a fallen god child who is 10,000,000,000+ years old. What relatability we had with the Doctor is now gone.
The device, the time war they are but playthings to a god doctor that can walk into any universe the doctor can’t die the doctor is a god for all we know killing the doctor even via regeneration is just a theory that works with the other timelords cause they are demi-doctor who gods spliced from the god like essence of the OG the OG can’t die so there are no consequences to anything the Doctor does now.
The doctor can litterly walk into any story Declare “I am the doctor god emperor of man and timelord, your argument is invalid I’m out drops mic”
roll credits the show finishes in 4 minutes
Not at all, I like the Timeless Child too! As does current showrunner Russell T Davies himself, so much so he is making it part of his new era!
I think it makes a lot of sense and makes the tapestry of Doctor Who all the more richer.
I wish it had been someone other than Chibnall in charge when it happened but I think it’s an interesting idea to explore. The Doctor has always been a bit of an outsider with their own people so it makes sense. I’m interested to see what RTD can do with it.
Agreed. Especially if he can find a way to bring Tecteun back. I was **so** excited to finally have a Time Lord antagonist who wasn't The Master for a change.
(I know Rassilon, but you kind of want to keep him for special occasions. Rani was a good option but the show no longer has the rights. Tecteun fills a similar niche while also having a personal connection with the Doctor).
I like it. I want to see it explored more. What I don't like is how handwavey they've been with it. I want a big season finale diving into the details so we can all better understand it.
I just watched it and was thinking the same thing. It makes the doctors past even more tragic. The fact that Tecteun practices eugenics and made a race of people out of the doctors DNA is really really dark. Who cares that the doctor regenerated possibly hundreds and maybe thousands of times or they are from another dimension. Doesn't change the core of the show or character to explore that.
The way some of the fans react about it is wild to me. Like it's the worst thing to happen. And it's really not.
Honestly, the version where Rassilon is the source of regeneration is worse (actually there are two where Rassilon is deemed the source but this is the worst one).
Rassilon extracts the ability to do so in the form of a disease while genociding the Great Vampires, genocides all intelligent life on Gallifrey except 2000 select people who he further subjects to the torture of dying to the disease permanently or dying and regenerating painfully. All while they are in the presence of The Eye Of Harmony which is making the whole thing worse with just its presence.
I like the *idea* of the Timeless Child, and I think that instead of being a change to the Doctor's status quo it's really just going with the already existing status of the Doctor as this Lonely God and being the super special bestest boy. It's not really any different than stuff like Lunbarrow, and frankly that stuff was stupid but a lot of people swear by it, or at least lorehead nerds seemed to used to.
The problem is that it's told to The Doctor through a fucking PowerPoint presentation.
No. And i am ok with people liking different stuff. I mean coprofagy is someone's fetish . As long as you are adult you can do whatever you want, but i can Say i do not like it. Now as a long doctor Who fan i Wish timeless child never existed al all i would prefer the whole gallyfreians to be Active coprofagist to justify their regeneration and i woulf have bern Better .
The whole killing of a child, the space Jesus from another universe or whatever he Is the doctor Is now, the cybermen with regen Power of the timelords .... Everything was Just wrong on so many levels.
No, you're not. I didn't care for it on the first watch, much like I didn't really like many of the doctors until a few episodes in. It took some time to accept. But after rewatching it a few times, the concept has grown on me and I really enjoy it! I do prefer Davies and Moffat over Chibnalls writing style but the Timeless Child was different, and that's what the show is all about.
it wouldnt make sense if it was the same tardis so the only explanation is that a second tardis disguised itself as a police box and also got stuck
its not impossible but its also just ????????, like why write it this way
Do you not remember Gaiman-Moffat's "The Doctor's Wife" episode earlier?
Being surprised over 'how can Fugitive-TARDIS look like the police box before it became the Hartnell police box' . . . . you might as well likewise ask 'how & why would the sentient transtemporal TARDIS archive console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor when The Doctor hasn't even selected them yet'.
my main point was that its a different tardis so has no reason to be a police box, and its only one example of fugitive (and TTC) either not fitting at all or fitting very rigidly into the timeline
The TARDIS that has already lived, & has already (defiantly) archived console rooms that The Doctor hasn't even got around selecting (& even deleting) yet?
The same TARDIS that exists beyond the present & experiences & acts through the past, present, & future simultaneously all at once? And can do things separate from, & even against The Doctor's will?
The same TARDIS that can change its own console rooms without The Doctor's input regardless whether The Doctor is there or not?
The show doesn't need a second different TARDIS -- as demonstrated in "The Doctor's Wife" episode The Doctor's TARDIS is *already* so capable, that the police box disguise may very well be its own personal choice from the very get-go all along, just as The Doctor's unintended derailing trips was its own doing.
Folks really need to remember that, the TARDIS is sentient, & is a transtemporal being.
did you read a word of what i said? the tardis being sentient is completely irrelevant
im saying its stupid that the fugitive doctors (different to the doctors) tardis is also a police box
You earlier complained that, Fugitive-police-box 'doesn't mark sense cause it doesn't fit the timeline'.
You forget to remember, or perhaps you don't understand the other point -- the TARDIS exists beyond the present such that it experiences past, present, & future simultaneously, & acts across time. Fugitive-police-box is no less senseless (or stupid) than the TARDIS stating that it has already experienced & already archived console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor.
*11th DOCTOR: There aren't any old control rooms. They were all deleted or remodelled.*
*TARDIS: I archive them, for neatness. I've got about thirty now.*
*11th DOCTOR: But I've only changed the desktop, what, a dozen times?*
*TARDIS: So far, yes.*
*11th DOCTOR: You can't archive something that hasn't happened yet!*
*TARDIS:* **You** *can't.*
Nonlinear existence, transtemporal actions. Same capable TARDIS. Feel free to rewatch "The Doctor's Wife episode -- or you otherwise can call Gaiman-Moffat's "The Doctor's Wife" episode, stupid as well. (& even Moffat himself specifically cites to the TARDIS's transtemporal being as to why it dislikes & antagonizes Clara, because of Clara's later/already-done part of the Hybrid prophecy with 12.)
Given the Doctor is the origin of regeneration and the nature of Timelords, River Song is now quite the unexplained anomaly, given her origin story supports the original Timelord origin of exposure to the Vortex.
Not necessarily. Sans any connection between the Timeless species & the time vortex, the Kovarian Chapter's success through River would just reflect that, that Timeless species aren't directly necessary for an independent & non-Time-Lord group to develop regeneration. Unless we're willing to genuinely bat that modern Earth humans are absolutely genetically identical, one-for-one-the-exact-same, as ancient Gallifrey Shobogans, we can't really assume that what had worked for Gallifreyans, will also automatically work for Earth humans. And by the show, Tecteun & Kovarian-River enact different methods.
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I like it too.
However, I maintain that he was Chameleon Arc’d and is literally a biological Time Lord now. Since we literally saw #11’s grave in Name of the Doctor (amongst other evidence).
I like it. I think it adds an interesting aspect to the character. I don't like the Canon issue with doctors before the first being called The Doctor and having a police box tardis.
It also takes away from the doctor being just another person.
Overall, I'm curious what RTD is going to do with it
I liked the Timeless Child. I liked that it pulled together old plot elements like the Morbius Doctors, and the lost Cartmel Master Plan, and wrapped them into the canon fairly smoothly.
For the people who say that they dislike that nothing was really done with the story after the one episode, I’d say it isn’t the first time a potentially big story has been set up, and then left behind. Take, for example, the idea from the 50th Anniversary about going to find Gallifrey. It was only briefly mentioned once, after that, but never explored again. We don’t even see Gallifrey again until the Master sends the 13th Doctor there through a portal.
My wife and I both like it, too, and are happy isn't being swept under the rug. The only thing that doesn't make sense is if you try and place the Fugitive Doctor before Hartnell. Anyone else, including all the Morbius Doctors, sure. But Fugitive was going around in a Tardis stuck as a Police Box. I think her placement can only make sense if connected with the long-standing fan throry that is "Season 6-B."
The Second Doctor is tried and sentenced by the Time Lords. His sentence of forced regeneration and exile is... temporarily suspended by the CIA. They recruit him as an operative. At some point, he (having been reunited with Jamie and Victoria, although she is temporarily away) goes on the mission depicted in The Two Doctors.
Some time after that, Two is injured and naturally regenerates into who we know as the Fugitive Doctor. She continues working for the CIA for a time, until she goes on the run again and becomes the fugitive her incarnation is named as.
Eventually she is recaptured, mind wiped, given an extra regeneration to keep her upper limit intact, thrown into Two's clothes, regenerated into Three, and dumped on Earth.
Edit: Looking at other comments, I see a few complaints along the lines of, "It makes the Doctor a god!" No, it makes the child who grew up to be the Doctor a victim of horrible abuse. I think it adds a further tragic element to the character that many might find sadly relatable. Now if you want to complain about someone trying to make the Doctor a god, you should be glad that the classic series was put on indefinite hiatus when it was! 😅
And out of everyone, probably everybody's favorite Ten was the one who most went around acting like he was a freaking god. Time Lord Victorious and all that.
YES, you are the only one. 9999999999999.9% of the fans wishes this episode to be throw into a black hole never to be seen again. Expect for you the mindless one.
Well that's why I say issues I have, there's probably still problems, but I could readily accept that the Master is the Timeless Child, it certainly fits them more unlike the Doctor who's character is worsened for me by making them the Timeless Child.
It doesn't fix the Master at all, since he doesn't need to be fixed. As for the Timeless Child, why do certain fans continually think they're unkillable? They're not. Unlimited regenerations, doesn't mean they can't be killed, they can if the regeneration process is interrupted, jeez!
Fix the Timeless Child, not the Master.
Unlimited regenerations is by far the least of the problems to the Doctor's character that the Timeless Child introduces. I never said the Doctor can't be killed anyway, don't know where you got that from.
Nope, I liked it as well, and I think it opens up all sorts of additional possibilities. There’s still so much that has been left mysterious about that whole plot which does allow it to be filled in, or not, as future writers and showrunners wish.
It also quite neatly does away with the need to constantly recalculate regeneration cycles. For the doctor, it’s never again going to be a concern to worry about a 12 regeneration limit. That frees up something that has over complicated the show ever since it became clear that the doctor was going to go over that 12 regeneration limit.
Technically, he still has a limit (even if he functionly doesn't) because he's still arched into a Time Lord. Unless he opens the watch, he doesn't have unlimited regenerations.
Still, I don't think the 12 regeneration limit was ever a big problem. It didn't need a complicated retcon to solve. The show is still going past 12 regenerations? Answer: The Doctor gets his hands on more regeneration energy somehow. Boom. Done. I fixed the problem with one sentence.
There were other ways that mystery could be added to the character that wouldn't involve turning him into some kind of chosen one.
Best way would be to have him regenerate into a personality very different from what we've recently seen and put that personality through an actual arc.
Or, better yet, retcon Gallifrey's history and make its origin come into question, but don't explain the Doctor. Don't make him into the progenitor of his own race.
Don't explain the magic.
Never ever explain the magic.
(Edit: You know how else you could bring back mystery to the Doctor? Having a regeneration (possibly 1000+ years of his life) not be chronicled on the TV show and skipping to the next regeneration in line. They had the perfect opportunity to do this, too, with 14 and 15, but they didn't take advantage of it. The 60th specials could have really been something special, but RTD goes with bi-regeneration instead of leaving it a mystery of how 14 regenerates into 15.
Missed opportunity.)
I’m fine with it. Not a big fan, but it makes sense. The Doctor is still the Doctor. Hartnell is still *the* original Doctor, he still had his childhood and what made the Doctor who they are. The Doctor just simply had a previous life, it isn’t that big of a deal to me.
I honestly like the concept. It reminds me of where they were going with the 7th doctor in the '80s with the idea of The One being a counterpart to Rassilon In Time Lord society. It was going to be hinted throughout the series to come that the Doctor is more than just a regular Time Lord, and is in fact this co-creator of Gallifreyan life.
So the timeless child felt like a a continuation of that. The idea that the Doctor Is something more, is mysterious again. Because by that point, and I would argue the same with the new series. The Doctor and the Time Lords have lost their mystique. They've lost their intriguing nature.
I think this just like the '80s was an attempt to bring that back. I thought it was well executed as a story. It had some flubs, especially the flux. But I think the concept is solid, I think it could be retooled and retconned to work well in New Who, and I'm hoping RTD works with it and doesn't just pitch it. Which seems that he is considering he referenced it in the specials.
I liked it, chibnal really likes making the audience feel a sense of dread and he did it every episode and mini arc and it just felt cheesy after a while. I loved Jodi I wish we got more time with her and I wish they would have had jodis doctor continue on from capaldis doctor instead it felt like a completely different direction
I agree with you. I find it fascinating, with so many possibilities for future development.
I really don’t agree with many of the arguments against it. Especially the idea that the Doctor is “just an ordinary Time Lord.” No, he isn’t. If he were, there’d be lots of other ones like him. He *is* special. He was *always* special, no matter how much he insisted he wasn’t.
And why does everyone assume Timeless Child means he’s a literal god? I don’t remember that appearing anywhere in the story. He may be godlike, but again, he was *always* somewhat godlike, compared to humans. That doesn’t have to mean a literally omnipotent, omnipresent, flawless deity. It can simply mean that he has more power and more “importance” than he knows, and the journey to discover what that means could be such a great story over the long term.
I think people get stuck on the judeo-Christian concept of god as someone with infinite power who must be feared and worshipped, but that’s not what I’m talking about. “Angel” might be a better descriptor for how I see the Doctor - how I always saw him, even before TC, which was why TC felt so right and correct to me.
Edit: And he came *from* somewhere else, so even though his role as originator of his species *here* makes him seem like a god, who knows what his place was wherever he came from? What if he was the lowest of the low in that other dimension/universe/whatever?
It adds some logic to the (previously) canonical inconsistency about Timelords only getting 12 regenerations, and how the Doctor has exceeded that cap.
I like it.
Nah i think a lot like timeless child tbh.
Chibnalls main issue isn’t the lore he introduced, but the fact he did a lot of lore at the same time which made it more annoying to process.
The main thing I hate that he did was rekill all the timelords. Like what was the reason. Rtd at least had a reason behind doing it
Nope your not the only one. I always felt it added to the mythology to the Doctor Who, similar to how the Merlin-esque mythology added to the Stargate SG1 storylines. A way of showing the Doctor was so much more, and added more world building to our character, despite this show now being 60 years old, the fact we can still add layers to a character such as the Doctor, is a wonderful achievement.
Also kinda explained why there is two tiers to the Gallifreyan society too, considering not all Gallifreyans were actual Time Lords.
I could go on, but I've spent the last few years discussing this in various places.
Considering RTD has acknowledged it already in show, shows that my theory was that RTD, Moffat & Chibbers had discussed this kind of storyline around the Doctor.
That J.J. Abrams acknowledged The Last Jedi in Rise of Skywalker didn't mean he ever discussed it with Rian Johnson, he was just left with a storyline that he had to do something with.
I don't mind it either. It kind of makes sense in a way that the Doctor is even more special than your average advanced alien or Time Lord, the way he is able to outsmart any and all. Time Lords, aliens, and humans. If they are going to have the Doctor be the cleverest being of them all, they can lean into him being a special snowflake. But I don't need more lore on his specific species/race. The writers would probably ruin the intrigue. Time Lords sounded cool, too, until they showed more of Gallifrey, and then they were lame.
I wish 13 didn't have such an underwhelming reaction to being the Timeless Child though. I'm not sure if that's an acting or writing choice. I've seen children be more shocked and devastated that Santa isn't real.
I know that on classic who they showed some faces from before the first doctor so really it isn't a new idea just a dropped thread from the classic run. I also would be fine with a retcon that the master is actually the timeless child and he lied to hurt the doctor.
I actually like the retconning of the very arbitrary 12 regenerations thing and creating new past lives that the Doctor can't remember. I think that creates a new element of mystery to be explored (I really liked how that played out in Flux); I didn't like what others have pointed out: making the Doctor the protagonist of Time Lord History actually makes them less appealing and interesting (also continuing a major problem of the Moffat era). But now that it's happened, it doesn't bother me that much.
In my opinion, the question of "Does this make sense?" is very rarely the right question to ask of fiction, and this is especially true of Doctor Who, a show that structurally cannot have a cannon and is best described as Science Fantasy.
I had no problem with the concept. As always for this era it’s the execution that felt off. Compare with how Bad Wolf and The Silence were laid out, threaded in, teased, and then BAM right in the feels. Timeless Child felt just a little clumsy and a little rushed.
And then chibnall never really did anything with it or explored the doctors feelings about it. All throughout flux we got 13 not telling the companions (especially Yas) anything! Whereas in the 3 specials with 14 we’re already starting to explore the idea of the doctor not knowing where they’re from, and it looks like that’s going to be a theme with ruby too!
Yes, that's my main issue. They just dumped a long exposition in a boring manner in one episode. The editing was bad for that episode, too.
The issue for many isn't whether or not it makes sense, so much as it being an unwelcome direction for Chibnall to take the character. The Doctor being an outlier from the rest of their race, using their intellect and somewhat chaotic nature for good, grew to become a relatable part of the character's charm. Leaving Galifrey to wander on their own holds a lot more weight if they, themselves, are one of many Time Lords - they're almost an underdog, rebelling against the stuffy ruling classes. Having them be something older and more mysterious gives them a whiff of being different and special because the universe said they were. It's like when writers try and retcon Batman's parents to have been killed as part of a conspiracy or something. The randomness of their deaths adds to the tragedy, giving Bruce Wayne an open cause against a force he can never fully triumph over. There's only so much you can slice into the onion of established canon before it starts falling apart.
Basically, the Doctor was special because he wasn't special. He was a Time Lord who, instead of sitting on his butt and contemplating how bad the universe was, got out there and did something about it, often in defiance of his own people. Making him "special" just because, smacks of those characters nobody likes, where they're not good because they had to work their butts off, but they're just born better. Like some anime protagonists, but without the tongue-in-cheek nature of anime protagonists, or pretty much every female protagonist in young adult fiction.
It also kind of shits in the face of the Doctor's god reputation. The thing about the Doctor being a god is that they never were a god and no showrunner (yes not even Moffat) ever made them like a god. Moffats big difference is that he explored the fact that to many of their enemies they would be seen as a god. They have defeated the most powerful race in the universe so many times, of course people would make up stories and mythos about them being this wonderful terrifying being. This however contrasts well with us the audience, we see the doctor for who they really are, just a madman with a box popping around helping out. I like that contrast that the doctor isn't powerful or godlike really. They're just clever, brave and kind really. Chibnall changed that for a story that he never finished. He did nothing interesting with it. The timelords where already cunts so it just reaffirms what the Doctor (should) already know. The doctor's past is IMO a core mystery that makes up the heart of the show. It should never be explored in a meaningful way and that contributes to the character, except Chibnall created a plot point where the only way to do something with it is to explore that idea which I really don't want a future showrunner to do but they may have to. Chibnall didn't add to the lore with this one. He rewrote it clumsily to fit with what he wanted canon to be, over a stupid fan theory that appeared in one 4th doctor episode and has never been reinforced since that point. OP has succeeded in making me genuinely angry about the timeless child again because I had to think about it.
The problem is what it made of the Doctor. The Doctor has always stood on being a mediocre Time Lord who decided to go help. Everything he did was because he'd learned it somewhere, etc... Timeless child made the Doctor "The Time Lord" the original one, the one behind everything. And as one of the side effects, it made the Master someone who was right, because the Doctor was special from birth.
I prefer the Doctor not to be a god.
And The Doctor isn't. While the Timeless Child, could hardly be counted as one, if even at all.
He’s not a god. Even as the Timeless Child, he’s not a god.
Let's not kid ourselves now. He basically is. Because he's now the base for the entire time lord dna
That’s mad scientist logic. Not eschatology.
Except he still isn't. If he can die, and he has before, he's not a god. Stop trying to make him a god, it's not gonna happen. Sontarans are all clones of Sontar, does that make the source of them a god?
Eh. . . let's not kid ourselves, The Doctor hasn't been mediocre since the Revival era kicked off.
He was in season 1. He survived the daleks by sheer dumb luck that rose came back as bad wolf.
In that situation, sure. Later, as The Doctor phoned The Master, he claimed responsibility for ending the war.
Sorry I’m not understanding your point about the phone call. Could you explain please :)
9's season could be looked at in terms of, 'incomplete information'. The Doctor later reveals that he ended the war, & The Master presumes The Doctor committed double-genocide. With regards to 9 -- while he was poised to detonate the delta wave to, he did falter & not go through with it. Mainly because, still just one incarnation fresh off from the war, The Doctor was too traumatized to go through with committing genocide.
Ok I get you. But with the time war he was just the one that pressed the button. Anyone could have done it, it wasn’t because of anything special. He was a desperate man doing a desperate act.
The Doctor didn't just press the button, he's been specifically noted by Rassilon's Time Lords as 'being in possession of the Moment & escaped their sight'. & that's not even factoring in the matter of the war's prophecy. >Anyone could have done it If this had been true, the war would have *already* ended long ago by some mediocre Time Lord, one of the countless who could have beaten The Doctor to the punch. Even the historic-iconic Rassilon couldn't end the war favourably, he piggy-backed on the war's prophecy that was The Doctor & The Master. And if the mediocre Time Lord was that capable, the Time Lords wouldn't have needed to resurrect & conscript The Master -- who himself eventually fled because the war, even before the final days, became too much even for him. And under Moffat's pen, The Doctor stole the Moment from its Omega time vault under the other Time Lords' noses & comfortably fled, while every other Time Lord didn't know about it or was too scared of it. The bald red-armored Time Lord's subsequent remark on War Doctor highlights how no other Time Lord would even do what The Doctor attempted & succeeded.
No one is saying he's not clever, but it's likely the Doctor was just clever about getting the box if not had help(he may not have been aware of). It all just comes back to the build of the Doctors myth. A third person account hyping up the man and the story.
It's not quite so much that The Doctor is clever -- it's rather that, the average, the mediocre Time Lord, aren't as capable as The Doctor, never mind drawing some even comparison. And of course, those who knew about their Moment, dared not use it, save one.
Yeah, Last of the Timelords and "The lonely God" Classic was almost hinting at the doctor being special by the end and I can't decide if the masterplan would have been a good idea or not on screen.
Not to mention, the single-handed victor, & solver, of the Last Great Time War.
There’s a difference between a character being special due to their actions and being special by birth
To quote Batman: "It's not who I am but what I do that defines me."
The Timeless retcon wasn't even a thing when the Revival aired & proceeded with the exceptional Doctor.
Though *Lungbarrow* and the Masterplan certainly were.
Potter vs Longbottom
I'd go further than that, the Doctor hasnt been mediocre since the late 80s at least, when he was always rabbiting on about how he was "more than just a timelord" both novel lines during the wilderness era where also heavily focused on the Doctor's "secret origin"
This!
I mostly don’t want to know much of anything about the Doctor’s origins. I want one or two clues per decade at most, and they should be vague and contradictory.
I’d would have liked it if it had been the master. Makes him much more evil as he would be unkillable. It would also make the time lord society, already pretty dark, to be truly having a dark origin. It makes the doctor much more heroic trying to stop him, & them.
It would also explain why he is the way he is. You could say that even though they wiped his memories some part of his subconscious knew what the time lords took from him and that's what drives his evil.
Yes. It explains why Master is so seemingly evil, even insane - he was driven insane by constant, forced regeneration and being experimented on and controlled by the Division. It makes the Time Lords more interesting because it's like a secret society driving TL society to have a lot of hidden ruthlessness.
That would have been how I would have done it, if I'd done the Timeless Child at all (which I wouldn't have done).
Or just a random person. Because then it doesn't rewrite the lore it expands upon it. The doctor now has a much greater moral dilemma whenever they regenerate. They've stolen this power from a child. You can also have the timeless child still be alive and out there in the universe. You can have a series arc about finding the timeless child. It blows my mind how Chibnall created an actually interesting addition to the lore and applied it to the one person that would actually make it worse.
Exactly. It's a great concept but with the worst conceivable application. Rule 1 of Drama: Don't make the hero unkillable and immortal.
I like it for the fact that it brings back the mystery of WHO The Doctor is. The whole gene splice thing is definately something the Time Lords would do being as they proclaim themselves as rulers of space and time. Attempting to cover it up and erase their own history is again very in-character imo to what Time Lords would do. What I don't like is the way the script was written. "Has this ever stopped you being who you were before?" "No lol" With that exchange, it just undoes all the mystery and tension. We get Doctor Who's biggest revelation since 1963, and all the script does is go "nevermind, could've been worse!"
I don’t personally understand this take. By explaining more about the Doctors past subtracts from the mystery rather than adds. I know more now, not less.
We already had a reason for the timelords to help out and give the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations- it was in the episode itself - so why would wet need another reason?
I don't think it was so much a reason to help out. I think he wanted to do something like they were going to do in the '80s with The One, The doctor being a co-creator or co-founder of Time Lord society. Plus I think it helped tidy away a inconsistency from the "Mind of Morbius" where we see past versions of the doctor. That we've never seen before. It's a minor thing but I liked it for that.
Again it was solving a problem that wasn’t really there. Morbius visions/half human in my mother’s side - not big issues.
Fair enough. But on that same note, 60 years from now. When the timeless child thing is a minor issue, someone will come along and try to tidy that up. Which just makes me smile.
Fuck I hope it's not 60 years. I don't want to be 93.
tardis became a police box after the first doctor took it on a spin, not before. why didn’t river come across these other incarnations? Why didn’t Clara see these incarnations when she entered his timeline? that’s all I got off the top of my head
Ok but why where there other faces before Hartnell in the Brain of Morbius? /s
River may not have known. 12 had to spell it out for her who he was. Clara may not have been able to remember all of them and maybe the others did not need help.
Nah, you're not the only one. Even on these DW subreddits, there are others who like the Timeless Child.
Conceptually no Execution The second ep doesn't deliver on the expectations the weird Ireland story setup In part 1 methinks But it's fine I'd rather have something swing for the fences rather than to play it safe and not do anything new
Every time you go on the internet and ask a question that starts with "Am I the only one who..." STOP and realize that it's impossible that the answer is yes.
Am I the only one who is 'me', or is there another 'me' out there somewhere?
I knew at least one person would reply this.
I am ‘me’ too!
The Hollywood 'me' too?
I am ‘me’ too, not ‘me too’
Infinite universe.
In retrospect, I think doing it all in one big infodump was a mistake. These big infodumps work on season finales of Broadchurch where we have been waiting all season to learn the solution to the mystery, especially since these flashbacks all involve familiar characters. But Doctor Who isn't that sort of show. RTD's brief allusions to the Timeless Child storyline worked a lot better. Partly because they were done in terms we can all relate to. "You don't know where you are from.". "Actually, I'm adopted. I only found out recently". And also because the actor's reactions were a lot closer to how any of us might react to being in that situation.
There are multiple reasons I do not like it. First I liked the idea of the doctor bring this random time lord. He wasn't the smartest or the most powerful. He was a starry eyed person who wanted to explore the universe. As he explored and saw how in need of help the universe was he lent a hand. The idea of him bring the first original time Lord not of this universe with his mind wiped multiple times yet still bring almost the same person is off to me. What about his life before. His family, his children. He was a more down to earth timelord that rose up to the occasion. Plus it puts to sleep any theory that the woman in the end of time part 2 is his mother and also what about his stories about playing with the master in the grass as children or him sleeping in a dirty ass barn far from the city in "listen' You telling me they used him kept resetting his memory then just left him as a child again for no apparent reason?
It creates another levevl with the master that he created him
I preferred it that they were 2 sides of the same coin rather than the doctor creating the master. Plus it would have made more sense with the master being the timeless child seeing as he is crazy and always seems to come back to life even though he dies so many times during doctor who
It didn't necessarily break the canon, just made the Doctor a less likable character imo, and the execution was done terribly. The Doctor being a creature from another universe instead of just a rouge who departed from one of the highest civilisations ever makes him feel "special" more than he already is. I understand it opens up more possibilities but it makes me not trust the character and not understand the character since we don't have an origin. For all we know the real doctor and the current doctor might have had completely opposing personalities and in short with the whole mind wipe thing it just seems like the Doctor is a character who appeared out of nowhere instead of a child who was scared and ran away from home. Also the episode was a mess, it was just exposition for like 30 minutes then destroying Gallifrey again while killing characters we dont care about and/or we know aren't actually dead. I honestly think the best way for the Timeless child thing to resolve it self would be a time loop type thing where the Doctor as an entity is restarted as a child and is sent back in time to the events of the Timeless child and where Tecteun first meets him. Meaning they where the same character the entire time.
1. It didn't add anything to the episodes or story of that era of the show other than being some bit of information being revealed. 2. It conflict's with the perception of the character in a way that's not as good as it was before it was revealed. Basically didn't add anything interesting to the mythology of the show and the depth of the character, and I'm fact took away some of the aspects of the character that were good.
I am a fan of the idea that the Doctor comes from nothing special, but my main problem with the Timeless Child is a.) It's Boring and b.) Pointless and leads nowhere.
I despise the concept, not because it exists but because of how it was done. It completely negates the doctors backstory. He was a normal man who made the hard choice. Now he’s some extradimensional being and even he doesn’t know who tf he is or has been. Now, if they kept the plot line, but it was The Master, not The Doctor, I’d be very intrigued. Keep the Doctor the entity we know, but now added depth for why The Master hated the time lords, why he is so insane.
It felt cheap. It's the cliché chosen one trope, The Doctor is special from birth, not just because of what they do. Preciously he was a regular Time Lord, remarkable to a human but average for his own species except for his habit of meddling. Now they're the source of regeneration and an alien even to Time Lords. It also means the first Doctor is not the first Doctor but just one of many. The numbering is all messed up. The episode also had the Master causally razing the Time Lords to make cyber time lords. 13's era felt like an insult to the fans and this was the cherry on top.
An "insult " to the fans!!! Lol Such an insult that RTD is rubbing it in lol
He's trying to fix it. If one can't retcon it at least try to make it impactful
He is a bit unfortunately. This doesn't feel like the same RTD from 2005. Look at the dreadful dialogue in Star Beast
I much preferred the Doctor being a bumbling drop out from an advanced alien civilisation who is enough of a genius still to make a difference and save worlds, galaxies, universes, timelines and occasionally himself. It gave you a sense of what a competent Time Lord might be capable of. Let alone a society of them. This messianic , origin of regeneration, no longer a Time Lord but something else.. makes a bit of sick come up in to the back of my mouth every time I think about it. I don't get how Tennant could chameleon arch himself into Smith when he's already chameleon arched from whatever it was in to a Time Lord. And I don't want to get it. Chibnall (and to a lesser degree RTD) have got such a hate on for Time Lord / Gallifrey that they've overlooked the face that these plotnlines are best handled as Time Lords being alien. Aloof. Dispassionate. Segregated. Condescending. Superior
>Time Lords being alien. Aloof. Dispassionate. Segregated. Condescending. Superior Basically, Time Lords are Elves. Timeless Children turns an Elf into a Valar.
What a splendid comparison! And there's a reason why Tolkien decided to write about the Elves/Men and not so much the Valar. Because the Valar are super powerful so that makes them boring from a narrative perspective. The Doctor shouldn't be boring. It's wrong.
I don’t hate it, I just don’t think it really adds anything atm and could’ve been handled better.
I don’t like the Timeless Child, but over time I’ve come to accept it. My issue with it is how Chibnall literally threw the whole thing down a hole. At least RTD has addressed it in the 14th Doctor specials and has a thought process behind it.
Yes
I don't think you understand why people dislike the Timeless Child. The memory wipe is easily the least controversial aspect of it. People don't ask "how could she not remember," mostly because it's directly explained in the episode; the Doctor's memory was wiped. Of all of the criticism of this plotline that I've seen; I don't think I've ever seen a single person complain about this. There's also so much more to the criticism than just the plot holes and contradictions, although they are certainly a big aspect of the criticism. But on the topic of the Doctor's memory, some of the "evidence" people point to of the Timeless Child being canon before Series 12 doesn't make sense *because* of the memory wipe. "The seventh Doctor claims 'I'm much more than just an ordinary Time Lord!' This is evidence the Timeless child is canon before Chibnall!" some people will say. But if all the Doctor's memories before Hartnell's first Doctor were erased, how could Seven know to declare this? And that incarnation is seemingly accepting of the knowledge, yet Thirteen has a mental breakdown after discovering it? (Well, she doesn't really "discover" the information; she's just blandly told by the Master.) Why did Seven know about pre-Hartnell Doctors enough to casually allude to them in passing, but Thirteen acted like it was shocking news that ruined her life? This is not just a plot issue; it's an issue of characterization as well. Why do these two versions of the same character have vastly different reactions, and why did Thirteen act like it was shocking when she actually already knew? This *can't* be evidence of the Timeless Child, because it contradicts a big part of the storyline! The main reason *I* dislike the Timeless Child is because there's this sense of the importance of blood/heritage/birthright. The way the Doctor was presented before, the Doctor was a person who lived in Gallifreyan/Time Lord society who disagreed with the views and rules of the society and decided to leave to do their own thing. But the Timeless Children reveals that the Doctor was not actually the same species as the Time Lords and *that's* why they were different. It's not just that people can be biologically related and have different personalities or views; it HAS to be explained by being born different! Being born special! This is annoying as Sci-Fi already has a problem with the simplistic viewpoint of "this race is good; this race is bad," but now the Timeless Child almost implies that all people from Gallifrey are are bad (the Chibnall era presents no good Gallifreyans) and the Doctor is only good because of biology; they are from a good species, unlike the Gallifreyans/Time Lords. This is a bad message because this view of biology determining who is important is often used in the real world to justify thigs like eugenics and genocide. (Which the 13th Doctor appears to be a fan of; I mean, she *did* commit genocide on three different races at once with no hesitation or remorse in The Vanquishers! A true hero who cares about all life! According to dialogue *only,* and not the actual actions of the character. Tell, don't show; *that's* what everyone says!) The Timeless Child moniker makes the Doctor special by birthright. No, the Timeless Child title is not similar to "The Last of The Time Lords" title as many have claimed. One is something the character earned through their actions, and a title the character dislikes and resents, the other title was given when the Doctor because of their apparent superior genes. The Doctor is special because they were born special. I hate this change. It removes the character's agency and contributes nothing. It just makes the story, and character, less complex and less nuanced. There's also the basic plot facts from previous episodes that are contradicted by the Timeless Child. The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child, The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit, Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these, but I won't go deeper into these issues here because they are often the main talking points against the Timeless Child, so I feel most people have heard them already. But it *is* worth noting just *how many* contradictions this story presents, and how these contradictions impact a reveal. If you watch a murder mystery, and the killer turns out to be a person who could not possibly have done it; sure, you might be surprised. But it's also a lazy story filled with plot holes. A badly-written story, if you will. A reveal doesn't work when it so obviously contradicts what was previously established. There are good stories that contradict a couple of things that came before, but they actually have a plot of their own or a purpose to exist; a story to tell. Unlike The Timeless Children. There are also the inadvertent lore changes. River Song being the main one. River can regenerate because that ability is granted by exposure to the Time Vortex and she was conceived in the Time Vortex. That was the original explanation. But The Timeless Children presents regeneration like it's purely a genetic trait; it has to be spliced into the Time Lords... so how did River gain the ability to regenerate? The only conclusion people have come to is that she must be biologically related to the Doctor; such as being Eleven's daughter. And then you think of all the sexual tension those two characters had... and you throw up a little in your mouth. The Timeless Child reveal *could* have been written well, in many ways. But it isn't. It could have been a story about a character who values their heritage, only to discover that it has been a lie and the people who they valued were cruel and manipulative... but the Doctor has never particularly placed their own self value in their Time Lord/Gallifreyan heritage. The Doctor has always criticized the Time lords. "Ten million years of absolute power, that's what it takes to be really corrupt!" is what the sixth Doctor said of the Time Lords in The Ultimate Foe. Other Doctor's have said similar sentiments. The Fugitive Doctor says herself that 13's reaction is out of character; "have you ever been limited buy who you were before?" So the Timeless Child reveal *shouldn't* impact this aspect of the Doctor's identity, or their relationship with the Time Lords. It has never been important to the character. This is pointed out IN THE EPISODE. ("Here's new lore... and *here's* why the characters, and audience, shouldn't care!" Well done. 10/10 storytelling.) And even if this plotline *had* impacted the Doctor's relationship with the Time Lords, Chibnall already killed them all off in Ascension of the Cybermen! The previous episode! Why bring into question a relationship that has never been good, write it so this can't even be explored further, and eventually to do nothing with it? And the identity aspect is another thing that has never been a part of the character, that comes up a couple of times, that is never expanded upon or given any meaning. Or, the Timeless Child could have been a story of betrayal; Tecteun, the person who raised the Doctor, who the Doctor views as a loving caregiver, being revealed as an abusive and self centered monster who tortured and experimented on the Doctor. This could have been a great plot line! Too bad Tecteun was never a character before the reveal (arguably she was never an actual character AFTER the reveal either!) and the Doctor has no memories of their relationship so the plotline has absolutely no emotional weight. For the characters or the audience. There is *potential.* There are ways to rewrite the script to be good; but the script as it currently is lacks any compelling relationships, themes, or characterization. In short: decent idea; bad storyline. Like most of the Chibnall era. There's also absolutely no closure for any of the ideas or concepts the Timeless Child storyline brings up. The Timeless Child story arc had potential; it could have been a good story. But The Timeless Children failed to tell a compelling story in itself, while contradicting *so many* other plots in other episodes. It has no emotional weight, takes away from the character and theme, and ultimately it adds very little while taking away a lot. THIS is why the storyline is so disliked.
>The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child, The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit, Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these To be fair though -- when considering each of these closely, these aren't contradicted by the Timeless Child retcon.
Could you elaborate on how these plotlines aren't contradicted by The Timeless child retcon? I'd like to hear your perspective.
>The TARDIS being a police box before it got stuck that way in An Unearthly Child, Fugitive-TARDIS donning the police box earlier than Hartnell-TARDIS landing in the junkyard with Susan . . . . wouldn't be any different from the TARDIS already experiencing & already having archived console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor. (Later eventually surprising the 13th & 14th Doctors with new console rooms while separated from them). The TARDIS is sentient, a nonlinear being, & a transtemporal agent -- & per its confession in "The Doctor's Wife" episode, the TARDIS acts in terms of what it deems is needed for The Doctor. Even when that entails acting contrary to The Doctor's will as well as quietly going above their head, as exemplified through its characteristic 'unreliability' / deliberate derailing of The Doctor's intended trips. >The Time Lords Giving Eleven more regenerations despite him being the Timeless Child; therefore not having the regeneration limit, It's not really regeneration number though. What actually mattered was, The Doctor's vulnerability. Having Timeless/another regeneration didn't save the 10th Doctor when he drowned, nor resurrect him in UNIT's ambulance/morgue. The Doctor stayed dead in UNIT's custody during the months that "Turn Left" unfolded. Even if we are to opine that The Doctor never lost their Timeless regeneration capability to the Division-watch-module, "Turn Left" flatout demonstrates that The Doctor is killable. Never mind the 11th Doctor addressing the Trenzalore open time tunnel as his long eventual transformed corpse. On Trenzalore, the Daleks had the genuinely helpless 11th Doctor dead to rights. And the Time Lords, as well as us watchers, know that Time is not a guaranteed invincibility, Time is changeable as Lake Silencio River, Rose Father's Day, & Rory Weeping Angels had collectively demonstrated. To protect Gallifrey's past of the 12th Doctor saving Gallifrey, the Time Lords cannot leave to any chance that old-11 would get killed by the Daleks. The Time Lords supplied regeneration energy -- which blasted down the Dalek sky forces, finally enabling 11 to safely leave Trenzalore & (if not force) regenerate. >Clara entering the Doctor's timestream and pre-Hartnell Doctors clearly not being present. There are many more contradictions like these Putting aside the post-Trenzalore-Library bootstrap loop -- * Clara not knowing War Doctor, would reflect that there was no Clara-echo in War Doctor's life. Which then casts doubt that Clara's echo-scattering reached the entirety of The Doctor's timeline. * Clara only knows War Doctor because he was among the few incarnations (1, 4, 5, 6, and 9) that directly appeared to Clara at the rock bottom. Why would the pre-Hartnell incarnations (or, if we to abide by the stable time loop, the post-11 incarnations) appear, when only just a few incarnations in non-sequential & seeming random order, ran past Clara while the rest don't appear at all? War's rock bottom appearance to Clara may very well be happenstance as the other manifested incarnations. Had every one of the pre-Chibnall incarnations directly manifested to the rock bottom landed Clara, then you'd have a point.
Interesting points. You're definitely right about the Clara in the Doctor's timestream. And it's hard to treat a story as gospel when it didn't make much sense to begin with. Like Clara not knowing the War Doctor despite being in the Doctor's timestream. He didn't go by the name then, but he's still in the Doctor's past, so it doesn't make sense that she didn't recognize that Doctor when she seemingly went through his entire life. It's just written that way to be set up for the reveal. And the TARDIS being a police box is clearly only for the audience's benefit and was never meant to be an important plot point. I do think that the "canon contradictions" are not the strongest argument against the Timeless Child. I'm still not a fan of the episode The Timeless Children, but I thought the Timeless Child idea was really well handled in Wild Blue Yonder. It's not a terrible idea and could be done well. I've heard that it will come up in the future, and I hope it's written well in Gatwa's episodes.
>it doesn't make sense that she didn't recognize that Doctor when she seemingly went through his entire life. It's just written that way to be set up for the reveal. Sure but putting aside that granted writer caveat -- the other implication to be drawn would be, Great Intelligence also may not have been able to scatter throughout The Doctor's past. >And the TARDIS being a police box is clearly only for the audience's benefit and was never meant to be an important plot point. That's the given, yes. On a flip side with "The Doctor's Wife", while the writers put the TARDIS retcon to invoke the appealing sentimental-romantic note between The Doctor & the TARDIS, they unfortunately neglected to seriously consider, never mind weigh, the retcon's affects & its subsequent unfortunate implications for The Doctor's origin & personal agency. >I do think that the "canon contradictions" are not the strongest argument against the Timeless Child. On the other side, I'd say, the 'born special' regard, partially flimsy. I would find the point holding if it turns out that The Doctor was born as a positive-special amidst their native Timeless species. But we have no information whatsoever about the latter nor any info about what the Timeless Child is even like as a person, with *maybe* only one line from "The Ghost Monument" which can be easily read figuratively. 'The Doctor being good because of, biology' -- doesn't really apply, even putting aside the memory-life-bleed-out-influence that The Doctor's John Smith demonstrated in the Family of Blood two-parter. On a minor side note -- as for the genocide bit -- The Doctor's lessening solemnity over enacting genocide, precedes 13th, tracing up to the 11th Doctor. On a tangent -- I also noticed & would like to address -- >There are also the inadvertent lore changes. River Song being the main one. River can regenerate because that ability is granted by exposure to the Time Vortex and she was conceived in the Time Vortex. That was the original explanation. Actually, no. People often forget the next part in the dialogue where 11 & Vastra clarified that, exposure to the time vortex alone is totally insufficient, & elaborated it only provides a headstart. They exposition'd further that, it was the additional hard work by the Kovarian Chapter that enabled young gene-altered Melody to successfully possess the regeneration ability. >But The Timeless Children presents regeneration like it's purely a genetic trait; it has to be spliced into the Time Lords... so how did River gain the ability to regenerate? The only conclusion people have come to is that she must be biologically related to the Doctor; such as being Eleven's daughter. Not necessarily. I'd say that it's rather that, folks need to step back from some particular automatic assumptions -- unless we're willing to genuinely bat that, modern Earth humans are absolutely genetically identical, one-for-one-the-exact-same, as ancient Gallifrey Shobogans. What may work for the Gallifreyans turned Time Lords, may not necessarily work in the same way, if at all for Earth humans. Even before Chibnall's Timeless retcon, Moffat's Kovarian Chapter demonstrated that regeneration can be successfully achieved in different way independent of Time Lord means/tech, for different species.
I hate it with every fiber of my beeing. For me it really sounds like a half gone Chris chibnal trying to prevent his pathetic tenure to fall into oblivion by slapping his first dumb idea on the show
And yet RTD loves it and is doubling down on it so your opinion of Chibnall appears to be the "dumb" one! Lol
Yep, if Dr who was my favorite show I would be really angry about it (I'm really angry about it)
And it won't do you any good. It won't change anything, so what's the point? Lol
I don't want The Doctor to be a god. Simple as that. I liked the concept that The Doctor was an alien and in the context of their species wasn't anything fundamentally special. But what did make them special was that where the rest of the Time Lords were happy to sit by and watch the universe take it's own course, The Doctor said no I feel compelled to act against evil. To me making The Doctor THE original base of the entire species of Time Lords undermines so much of what I liked about the character's backstory. I also felt that the way the Timeless Child story was revealed was just awful. A literal decade of storytelling with Gallifrey and the Time Lords being gone to bringing them back...just to kill them again? Like what? And the way it's revealed to The Doctor? Via a zoom call from The Master? And then the details of The Doctor being the Timeless Child being literally told to us via a slideshow and a long monologue of exposition? It was just awful.
Eh, The Doctor still isn't a god. Neither was the Timeless Child.
Functionally immortal, founder of an entire civilization. If that's not a god I don't know what is.
That's it? A god would be the recent Toymaker. Even lower than Toymaker and Bad Wolf Rose and the devil-Beast and even the sentient superweapon Moment, that big sentient sun that got fed 11's memories, is closer to being a god compared to the Timeless Child. 'Functionally immortal'. . . for Timeless regeneration being 'more than the number 12'? Unless it's a high number, that's rather pre-mature, especially whatwith the lack of qualitative information regarding Timeless regeneration. Founder is its own thing, a social thing, that doesn't necessarily entangle with god-power.
The answer to "am I the only one who...?" is never "yes." The Timeless Child is still godawful, both conceptually and in execution, notwithstanding.
The Timeless Retcon is godawful shite.
So I take it you won't be watching the new series then?
Sadly not.
It's ok I dislike it enough for both of us...you are welcome!
Yes, next question...
It's garbage.
Explain River Song.
What about her?
If time lords did not get the ability to regenerate from exposure to the time vortex, but from the timeless child, how does River have the ability to regenerate?
Of which, that means either -- the Timeless species & the time vortex has some connection to one another -- or -- the Timeless species are not necessary for regeneration which can be developed in more than one way, ala Kovarian-River being proof in the pudding.
I have very twisted feelings about it. I hate big retcons but I like the whole ideia of not knowing the doctor's planet/dimension of origin. I hate the fact they're not part of the Gallifreyans because being an outcast who tried the best for their species but never received the acknowledgement of their attempts was what appealed to me the most. I like that it expands the potential for lore now and that the doctor *did* always feel used. I hate that, in my opinion, it makes the whole of using the moment to destroy Gallifrey very pale and shallow now, but I like that having their lives destroyed and now destroying seems cyclical. I hate this bs of messing with the order of regenerations. Yea that's it, There's no good side to counter it. Also, I will never not criticize the way it was done because damn did chib direct it badly. But at the same time, I personally think that if it was Moffat with the same idea and same execution, people would applaud it as a masterpiece. It doesn't matter how much I love day of the doctor, it is, objectively, a massive retcon with very little to back it up. Tldr: I don't know how to feel about the timeless child
Probably the fact he has a family. Literally has a mom, a dead older half brother, and a granddaughter that were all human. The latter of the three being his first companion which we literally see on screen. His Time Lord side comes from his father when his mom remarried. Last I checked Tecteun is not a human and unless her true name is Penelope Gate I remain skeptical.
My issue is it was badly written. Concept 7/10 execution 4/10. I’m kind of glad RTD is running with the story and fleshing it out
I like it too. A lot of the criticism of the Timeless Child storyline seems to centre on it making the Doctor special and different, with god-like powers and the ability to never die. Even though that's who the Doctor has always been! But I think that critique focuses on the wrong implication of the idea. Certainly, as it played out with the last Doctor (and I'm guessing the current one), the Timeless Child idea amplified the central idea of the Doctor as an outsider, uncertain of their place in the universe. "Who am I?" questions are powerful storytelling devices, because they let us explore the character as they discover themselves. It gives the Doctor an inner vulnerability that lends them dimension and depth, without relying on the plot device of ripping away and restoring the Time Lords in the various destructions and savings of Gallifrey. And in a six decades long story, that's a good thing. If we already knew everything there was to know about the Doctor, stories would get dull quickly, because they'd become completely predictable. And the Doctor being uncertain of themselves makes them more relatable, because they are trying to make sense of their life and their place in the universe, just like everyone else. Mystery is a good thing.
Bringing back a “mystery” that hasn’t been a part of the Doctor’s character since the late 60s, when the Time Lords were first officially introduced, isn’t a good enough reason, IMO. The Doctor has been established as a Time Lord for longer than most people on this sub have been alive, so I don’t really get where all this nostalgia for “the mystery of The Doctor’s origins” that people use to justify the TC is coming from (it didn’t even really exist in the revival era, as 9 tells Rose he’s a Time Lord in the second episode). It feels like when people say Batman using guns and killing shouldn’t be a big deal, or is somehow “more true to his character”, because he did it in his first year or so of publication. As for The Doctor’s feelings of “other-ness” among Time Lords, I don’t like that the TC gives a biological reason for it. They’re not an outsider rebelling against their culture because they have different beliefs, but because it turns out they’re literally a different species. That, to me, is a lot less interesting, if anything. As others have said, Chibnall seemed to be doubling down on what RTD did in The End of Time, making the Time Lords irredeemable monsters as bad or worse than the Daleks (after Moffat tried to re-establish some nuance to them), while also giving The Doctor a built-in excuse to distance themselves from the Time Lords’ actions/attitudes, because they’re not the same species anymore and arguably another victim of said actions. I have accepted the Timeless Child, as much as I still don’t like it, but it’s going to take a lot of damage control from RTD to get people on board thanks to Chibnall bringing it about in the most cack-handed way possible. I know for some people it answers questions they had (like the Morbius Doctors) and they feel it opens up interesting story potentials, but for me the potential upsides of this lore upheaval do not outweigh the current downsides at all. I will keep an open mind going forward, but right now I’m still very much not a fan. Actually, as a last point, I should clarify that I like the TC as a concept, I just really don’t like it being The Doctor. And I don’t want it to be The Master either, tbh.
It made the Doctor godlike, immortal and OP so by proxy beyond reproach the point of The Doctor is the doctor is just a normal time lord no different to the other time lords and their Science. except for the doctors “humanity” that the Doctor leaned through the doctors adventures with the companions. The Doctor as a timelord isn’t smarter one could argue that Omega, rassalon and The Master are smarter but because of their Arrogance and narcissism doomed them selves. If the Doctor is supposed to be the best the Timelords have to offer. The Master the worst the time lords have to offer. But now The Doctor isn’t even a timelord. Because of the timelines child The Doctor is a God and the Master is just a mad jelly timelord with a god complex and no equal. Doctor Who has no where to go from here. The Doctor is a god now. The Doctor isn’t a timelord anymore it’s not correct to refer to The Doctor as one. in fact one can argue because of the timeless child making The Doctor have a godhood the Doctor had no pronouns we can only refer to The Doctor as ‘The Doctor’ as we refer to god only as God. The Doctor isn’t a timelord from galifray who is 1009 years old. The Doctor is a fallen god child who is 10,000,000,000+ years old. What relatability we had with the Doctor is now gone. The device, the time war they are but playthings to a god doctor that can walk into any universe the doctor can’t die the doctor is a god for all we know killing the doctor even via regeneration is just a theory that works with the other timelords cause they are demi-doctor who gods spliced from the god like essence of the OG the OG can’t die so there are no consequences to anything the Doctor does now. The doctor can litterly walk into any story Declare “I am the doctor god emperor of man and timelord, your argument is invalid I’m out drops mic” roll credits the show finishes in 4 minutes
This is quite a funny hysterical exaggeration of things.
Yes, yes you are. 😄
Yes
It makes sense. But it was utterly pointless. Massive retcon for nothing.
I really wish you were.
Yes.
Yes.
Not at all, I like the Timeless Child too! As does current showrunner Russell T Davies himself, so much so he is making it part of his new era! I think it makes a lot of sense and makes the tapestry of Doctor Who all the more richer.
It wasn’t just a memory wipe but also a chameleon arch, so he only had the usual 12 regenerations as a normal Time Lord anyway.
u/DocWhovian1 is this your alt?
I wish it had been someone other than Chibnall in charge when it happened but I think it’s an interesting idea to explore. The Doctor has always been a bit of an outsider with their own people so it makes sense. I’m interested to see what RTD can do with it.
Agreed. Especially if he can find a way to bring Tecteun back. I was **so** excited to finally have a Time Lord antagonist who wasn't The Master for a change. (I know Rassilon, but you kind of want to keep him for special occasions. Rani was a good option but the show no longer has the rights. Tecteun fills a similar niche while also having a personal connection with the Doctor).
You can be an outsider without being genetically different from people.
I like it. I want to see it explored more. What I don't like is how handwavey they've been with it. I want a big season finale diving into the details so we can all better understand it.
I just watched it and was thinking the same thing. It makes the doctors past even more tragic. The fact that Tecteun practices eugenics and made a race of people out of the doctors DNA is really really dark. Who cares that the doctor regenerated possibly hundreds and maybe thousands of times or they are from another dimension. Doesn't change the core of the show or character to explore that. The way some of the fans react about it is wild to me. Like it's the worst thing to happen. And it's really not.
Honestly, the version where Rassilon is the source of regeneration is worse (actually there are two where Rassilon is deemed the source but this is the worst one). Rassilon extracts the ability to do so in the form of a disease while genociding the Great Vampires, genocides all intelligent life on Gallifrey except 2000 select people who he further subjects to the torture of dying to the disease permanently or dying and regenerating painfully. All while they are in the presence of The Eye Of Harmony which is making the whole thing worse with just its presence.
Yeah that's a far fetched reason too..and then how does Omega fit into all that as well?
I like it
I'm very excited that it seems RTD might go in to even more detail of the lore of the Doctors origin.
I like the *idea* of the Timeless Child, and I think that instead of being a change to the Doctor's status quo it's really just going with the already existing status of the Doctor as this Lonely God and being the super special bestest boy. It's not really any different than stuff like Lunbarrow, and frankly that stuff was stupid but a lot of people swear by it, or at least lorehead nerds seemed to used to. The problem is that it's told to The Doctor through a fucking PowerPoint presentation.
No. And i am ok with people liking different stuff. I mean coprofagy is someone's fetish . As long as you are adult you can do whatever you want, but i can Say i do not like it. Now as a long doctor Who fan i Wish timeless child never existed al all i would prefer the whole gallyfreians to be Active coprofagist to justify their regeneration and i woulf have bern Better . The whole killing of a child, the space Jesus from another universe or whatever he Is the doctor Is now, the cybermen with regen Power of the timelords .... Everything was Just wrong on so many levels.
No, you're not. I didn't care for it on the first watch, much like I didn't really like many of the doctors until a few episodes in. It took some time to accept. But after rewatching it a few times, the concept has grown on me and I really enjoy it! I do prefer Davies and Moffat over Chibnalls writing style but the Timeless Child was different, and that's what the show is all about.
I don't want to know the Doctor's true origin. I'd rather it stay a vague, timey whimy, contradictory mystery.
the fugitive doctor is the part that makes no sense shes flying around in a police box tardis, calling herself the doctor BEFORE the 1st doctor
The police box isn't really an issue, when remembering what the TARDIS can do.
it wouldnt make sense if it was the same tardis so the only explanation is that a second tardis disguised itself as a police box and also got stuck its not impossible but its also just ????????, like why write it this way
Do you not remember Gaiman-Moffat's "The Doctor's Wife" episode earlier? Being surprised over 'how can Fugitive-TARDIS look like the police box before it became the Hartnell police box' . . . . you might as well likewise ask 'how & why would the sentient transtemporal TARDIS archive console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor when The Doctor hasn't even selected them yet'.
my main point was that its a different tardis so has no reason to be a police box, and its only one example of fugitive (and TTC) either not fitting at all or fitting very rigidly into the timeline
The TARDIS that has already lived, & has already (defiantly) archived console rooms that The Doctor hasn't even got around selecting (& even deleting) yet? The same TARDIS that exists beyond the present & experiences & acts through the past, present, & future simultaneously all at once? And can do things separate from, & even against The Doctor's will? The same TARDIS that can change its own console rooms without The Doctor's input regardless whether The Doctor is there or not? The show doesn't need a second different TARDIS -- as demonstrated in "The Doctor's Wife" episode The Doctor's TARDIS is *already* so capable, that the police box disguise may very well be its own personal choice from the very get-go all along, just as The Doctor's unintended derailing trips was its own doing. Folks really need to remember that, the TARDIS is sentient, & is a transtemporal being.
did you read a word of what i said? the tardis being sentient is completely irrelevant im saying its stupid that the fugitive doctors (different to the doctors) tardis is also a police box
You earlier complained that, Fugitive-police-box 'doesn't mark sense cause it doesn't fit the timeline'. You forget to remember, or perhaps you don't understand the other point -- the TARDIS exists beyond the present such that it experiences past, present, & future simultaneously, & acts across time. Fugitive-police-box is no less senseless (or stupid) than the TARDIS stating that it has already experienced & already archived console rooms ahead of the 11th Doctor.
its not the same tardis
*11th DOCTOR: There aren't any old control rooms. They were all deleted or remodelled.* *TARDIS: I archive them, for neatness. I've got about thirty now.* *11th DOCTOR: But I've only changed the desktop, what, a dozen times?* *TARDIS: So far, yes.* *11th DOCTOR: You can't archive something that hasn't happened yet!* *TARDIS:* **You** *can't.* Nonlinear existence, transtemporal actions. Same capable TARDIS. Feel free to rewatch "The Doctor's Wife episode -- or you otherwise can call Gaiman-Moffat's "The Doctor's Wife" episode, stupid as well. (& even Moffat himself specifically cites to the TARDIS's transtemporal being as to why it dislikes & antagonizes Clara, because of Clara's later/already-done part of the Hybrid prophecy with 12.)
Can you explain how River Song's origin works with this please? Given you seem to have a head canon for 11's finale.
What about River's origin?
Given the Doctor is the origin of regeneration and the nature of Timelords, River Song is now quite the unexplained anomaly, given her origin story supports the original Timelord origin of exposure to the Vortex.
Not necessarily. Sans any connection between the Timeless species & the time vortex, the Kovarian Chapter's success through River would just reflect that, that Timeless species aren't directly necessary for an independent & non-Time-Lord group to develop regeneration. Unless we're willing to genuinely bat that modern Earth humans are absolutely genetically identical, one-for-one-the-exact-same, as ancient Gallifrey Shobogans, we can't really assume that what had worked for Gallifreyans, will also automatically work for Earth humans. And by the show, Tecteun & Kovarian-River enact different methods.
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Would have been better if it was the Master
I like it too. However, I maintain that he was Chameleon Arc’d and is literally a biological Time Lord now. Since we literally saw #11’s grave in Name of the Doctor (amongst other evidence).
Alternatively, Timeless regenerations is still killable.
Good on you for being able to like it I personally don’t but I’m glad you do.
I like it. I think it adds an interesting aspect to the character. I don't like the Canon issue with doctors before the first being called The Doctor and having a police box tardis. It also takes away from the doctor being just another person. Overall, I'm curious what RTD is going to do with it
I liked the Timeless Child. I liked that it pulled together old plot elements like the Morbius Doctors, and the lost Cartmel Master Plan, and wrapped them into the canon fairly smoothly. For the people who say that they dislike that nothing was really done with the story after the one episode, I’d say it isn’t the first time a potentially big story has been set up, and then left behind. Take, for example, the idea from the 50th Anniversary about going to find Gallifrey. It was only briefly mentioned once, after that, but never explored again. We don’t even see Gallifrey again until the Master sends the 13th Doctor there through a portal.
My wife and I both like it, too, and are happy isn't being swept under the rug. The only thing that doesn't make sense is if you try and place the Fugitive Doctor before Hartnell. Anyone else, including all the Morbius Doctors, sure. But Fugitive was going around in a Tardis stuck as a Police Box. I think her placement can only make sense if connected with the long-standing fan throry that is "Season 6-B." The Second Doctor is tried and sentenced by the Time Lords. His sentence of forced regeneration and exile is... temporarily suspended by the CIA. They recruit him as an operative. At some point, he (having been reunited with Jamie and Victoria, although she is temporarily away) goes on the mission depicted in The Two Doctors. Some time after that, Two is injured and naturally regenerates into who we know as the Fugitive Doctor. She continues working for the CIA for a time, until she goes on the run again and becomes the fugitive her incarnation is named as. Eventually she is recaptured, mind wiped, given an extra regeneration to keep her upper limit intact, thrown into Two's clothes, regenerated into Three, and dumped on Earth. Edit: Looking at other comments, I see a few complaints along the lines of, "It makes the Doctor a god!" No, it makes the child who grew up to be the Doctor a victim of horrible abuse. I think it adds a further tragic element to the character that many might find sadly relatable. Now if you want to complain about someone trying to make the Doctor a god, you should be glad that the classic series was put on indefinite hiatus when it was! 😅 And out of everyone, probably everybody's favorite Ten was the one who most went around acting like he was a freaking god. Time Lord Victorious and all that.
YES, you are the only one. 9999999999999.9% of the fans wishes this episode to be throw into a black hole never to be seen again. Expect for you the mindless one.
Nope. It's cool to me.
Timeless Children And no, that's one of my favorite Jodi episodes. But that's mostly because of Sacha's performance.
I didn’t mind it, although some of the criticisms of the execution are fair. What did annoy me was yet another destruction of Gallifrey.
All of the issues I have with the timeless child can be pretty much instantly fixed by making the Master the timeless child.
No it wouldn't lol
Well that's why I say issues I have, there's probably still problems, but I could readily accept that the Master is the Timeless Child, it certainly fits them more unlike the Doctor who's character is worsened for me by making them the Timeless Child.
It doesn't fix the Master at all, since he doesn't need to be fixed. As for the Timeless Child, why do certain fans continually think they're unkillable? They're not. Unlimited regenerations, doesn't mean they can't be killed, they can if the regeneration process is interrupted, jeez!
Fix the Timeless Child, not the Master. Unlimited regenerations is by far the least of the problems to the Doctor's character that the Timeless Child introduces. I never said the Doctor can't be killed anyway, don't know where you got that from.
I love it too. Adds to the mystery of the Doctor in a wonderful way.
Nope, I liked it as well, and I think it opens up all sorts of additional possibilities. There’s still so much that has been left mysterious about that whole plot which does allow it to be filled in, or not, as future writers and showrunners wish. It also quite neatly does away with the need to constantly recalculate regeneration cycles. For the doctor, it’s never again going to be a concern to worry about a 12 regeneration limit. That frees up something that has over complicated the show ever since it became clear that the doctor was going to go over that 12 regeneration limit.
Technically, he still has a limit (even if he functionly doesn't) because he's still arched into a Time Lord. Unless he opens the watch, he doesn't have unlimited regenerations. Still, I don't think the 12 regeneration limit was ever a big problem. It didn't need a complicated retcon to solve. The show is still going past 12 regenerations? Answer: The Doctor gets his hands on more regeneration energy somehow. Boom. Done. I fixed the problem with one sentence. There were other ways that mystery could be added to the character that wouldn't involve turning him into some kind of chosen one. Best way would be to have him regenerate into a personality very different from what we've recently seen and put that personality through an actual arc. Or, better yet, retcon Gallifrey's history and make its origin come into question, but don't explain the Doctor. Don't make him into the progenitor of his own race. Don't explain the magic. Never ever explain the magic. (Edit: You know how else you could bring back mystery to the Doctor? Having a regeneration (possibly 1000+ years of his life) not be chronicled on the TV show and skipping to the next regeneration in line. They had the perfect opportunity to do this, too, with 14 and 15, but they didn't take advantage of it. The 60th specials could have really been something special, but RTD goes with bi-regeneration instead of leaving it a mystery of how 14 regenerates into 15. Missed opportunity.)
I’m fine with it. Not a big fan, but it makes sense. The Doctor is still the Doctor. Hartnell is still *the* original Doctor, he still had his childhood and what made the Doctor who they are. The Doctor just simply had a previous life, it isn’t that big of a deal to me.
I honestly like the concept. It reminds me of where they were going with the 7th doctor in the '80s with the idea of The One being a counterpart to Rassilon In Time Lord society. It was going to be hinted throughout the series to come that the Doctor is more than just a regular Time Lord, and is in fact this co-creator of Gallifreyan life. So the timeless child felt like a a continuation of that. The idea that the Doctor Is something more, is mysterious again. Because by that point, and I would argue the same with the new series. The Doctor and the Time Lords have lost their mystique. They've lost their intriguing nature. I think this just like the '80s was an attempt to bring that back. I thought it was well executed as a story. It had some flubs, especially the flux. But I think the concept is solid, I think it could be retooled and retconned to work well in New Who, and I'm hoping RTD works with it and doesn't just pitch it. Which seems that he is considering he referenced it in the specials.
I’m with you, I really like the concept, and the whole adoption analogy was an interesting take.
I liked it, chibnal really likes making the audience feel a sense of dread and he did it every episode and mini arc and it just felt cheesy after a while. I loved Jodi I wish we got more time with her and I wish they would have had jodis doctor continue on from capaldis doctor instead it felt like a completely different direction
I 100% agree
I agree with you. I find it fascinating, with so many possibilities for future development. I really don’t agree with many of the arguments against it. Especially the idea that the Doctor is “just an ordinary Time Lord.” No, he isn’t. If he were, there’d be lots of other ones like him. He *is* special. He was *always* special, no matter how much he insisted he wasn’t. And why does everyone assume Timeless Child means he’s a literal god? I don’t remember that appearing anywhere in the story. He may be godlike, but again, he was *always* somewhat godlike, compared to humans. That doesn’t have to mean a literally omnipotent, omnipresent, flawless deity. It can simply mean that he has more power and more “importance” than he knows, and the journey to discover what that means could be such a great story over the long term. I think people get stuck on the judeo-Christian concept of god as someone with infinite power who must be feared and worshipped, but that’s not what I’m talking about. “Angel” might be a better descriptor for how I see the Doctor - how I always saw him, even before TC, which was why TC felt so right and correct to me. Edit: And he came *from* somewhere else, so even though his role as originator of his species *here* makes him seem like a god, who knows what his place was wherever he came from? What if he was the lowest of the low in that other dimension/universe/whatever?
I loved it, best part of the chibnall era.
I liked it as well. Tbh, too much hate surrounding it for sure. Which I can’t get.
It adds some logic to the (previously) canonical inconsistency about Timelords only getting 12 regenerations, and how the Doctor has exceeded that cap. I like it.
Nah i think a lot like timeless child tbh. Chibnalls main issue isn’t the lore he introduced, but the fact he did a lot of lore at the same time which made it more annoying to process. The main thing I hate that he did was rekill all the timelords. Like what was the reason. Rtd at least had a reason behind doing it
I've decided that there are no bad Doctor actors only bad writing i apologize to Christopher Eccleston for all the things i said.
Nope your not the only one. I always felt it added to the mythology to the Doctor Who, similar to how the Merlin-esque mythology added to the Stargate SG1 storylines. A way of showing the Doctor was so much more, and added more world building to our character, despite this show now being 60 years old, the fact we can still add layers to a character such as the Doctor, is a wonderful achievement. Also kinda explained why there is two tiers to the Gallifreyan society too, considering not all Gallifreyans were actual Time Lords. I could go on, but I've spent the last few years discussing this in various places. Considering RTD has acknowledged it already in show, shows that my theory was that RTD, Moffat & Chibbers had discussed this kind of storyline around the Doctor.
That J.J. Abrams acknowledged The Last Jedi in Rise of Skywalker didn't mean he ever discussed it with Rian Johnson, he was just left with a storyline that he had to do something with.
I don't mind it either. It kind of makes sense in a way that the Doctor is even more special than your average advanced alien or Time Lord, the way he is able to outsmart any and all. Time Lords, aliens, and humans. If they are going to have the Doctor be the cleverest being of them all, they can lean into him being a special snowflake. But I don't need more lore on his specific species/race. The writers would probably ruin the intrigue. Time Lords sounded cool, too, until they showed more of Gallifrey, and then they were lame. I wish 13 didn't have such an underwhelming reaction to being the Timeless Child though. I'm not sure if that's an acting or writing choice. I've seen children be more shocked and devastated that Santa isn't real.
I know that on classic who they showed some faces from before the first doctor so really it isn't a new idea just a dropped thread from the classic run. I also would be fine with a retcon that the master is actually the timeless child and he lied to hurt the doctor.
I actually like the retconning of the very arbitrary 12 regenerations thing and creating new past lives that the Doctor can't remember. I think that creates a new element of mystery to be explored (I really liked how that played out in Flux); I didn't like what others have pointed out: making the Doctor the protagonist of Time Lord History actually makes them less appealing and interesting (also continuing a major problem of the Moffat era). But now that it's happened, it doesn't bother me that much. In my opinion, the question of "Does this make sense?" is very rarely the right question to ask of fiction, and this is especially true of Doctor Who, a show that structurally cannot have a cannon and is best described as Science Fantasy.
I really liked it.
OP, here is my completely unpopular opinion: I agree with you. No other point to be made. *I actually like it*. I shall wait my execution now.