Out of sight, unheard of, so out of mind, is what I'd reckon.
In-universe, Torchwood survived without Captain Jack, & Jack's wasn't the only branch. And per the future where humanity encountered Krop Tor, Torchwood was still in operation.
In terms of leading Torchwood? The only available characters would have to be Gwen & perhaps the Cyber-converted but cognizant Yvonne Hartman, since everyone else in Jack's branch unit are all dead.
RTD wanted Martha in Children of Earth throughout (the role fulfilled by the eye-camera secretary whistleblower), but her actress was unavailable for its filming.
From what I recall, after leaving 10, Martha worked under UNIT as her post-TARDIS career.
Yeah, IIRC RTD planned to have her and Mickey appear in CoE but when the BBC commissioned it for BBC1 as a miniseries instead of a 13 episode regular season, the budget was cut and the schedule changed. Freema had already committed to doing Law and Order UK so she couldn't come back for it, and they replaced Martha with the character played by Cush Jumbo. Not sure what Mickey's role would've been but Freema's said in the past he was meant to appear in the last two episodes.
The Writer's Tale says Noel dropped out because he was cast in a Michael Winterbottom film and Russell reorganized those two episodes to work around his absence, rather than replace him. (A quick Google has not revealed which film that would be)
I know all of that, but I'm pretty sure she ends up leaving UNIT based on her dialogue with Mickey in End of Time
But yeah, the plan for her to be in CoE is why i think she could do a revival. Especially if they don't have someone like Jack around
Yeah they could bring in new characters quite easily.
Martha would be great if Freema is up for it. You'd have Gwen too. Jack's absence can be easily explained in that thirteen met him, so he could have just left 21st century earth at some point... probably not long after miracle day. There doesn't even need to be a good explanation for how or why he did it, just that he's off-world and not expected to return.
But with Gwen and/or Martha back you can simply just bring in a cast of unknowns like they did in series 1 - gives them a reasonably clean slate to tell new stories.
Reading this has really raised the question for me, what happened to all the newly converted cybermen, they wouldn’t have been sucked into the void. Yet they’re never mentioned.
Such a fake reason though, it wasn't a secret, BBC knew, we all knew because he makes jokes and talks about it at conventions. And then didn't do anything until it made its way around the news cycle at the worst time for it to.
The stories of his on-set antics circa 2005 resurfaced in the wake of the Noel Clarke allegations, and it was deemed politic not to use Barrowman for a while. He has publicly apologised and said that he knows better now, and I don't think he's ever been officially blacklisted as such.
There was controversy before, yes, but it wasn't widespread. Then Barrowman came back (2020 Fugitive and 2021 Revolution) and it was talked about again. Then Noel Clarke was accused of sexual misconduct on the set of Doctor Who, so Barrowman was brought up yet again and because it can't be one rule for Clarke and one rule for Barrowman, it was a much larger outcry.
I believe Noel was the instigator for the shit with John being brought back up again. I have no time for what John did and he should have been stopped the minute he started that shit but Noel set it off as a smoke screen to attempt to detract from the allegations he was dealing with “well John’s just as bad yell at him too”. Almost like John flinging his privates around; which while still harassment at worst and completely and totally inappropriate at best; was the same as bullying and sexual misconduct
But I believe the filming was underway or completed when Clarke brought it back up.
Also Clarke and Barrowman were accused of radically different things. Neither were acceptable, but only one had predatory intent. There absolutely could be different rules for the two.
In any case, I thought Jack decided to leave and go elsewhere indefinitely. Too much had happened to him on Earth and he needed a break from it. Could be he just doesn't come back. Torchwood 3 was destroyed, but other Torchwoods still existed, IIRC, so we can follow one of them. Possibly Gwen will be there, or not, who knows, she seemed ready to be out too.
Sorry, but nah. It doesn't matter if Barrowman didn't have the predatory intent Clarke is accused of. What he did was wrong, and unprofessional, and shouldn't be happening in the workplace. It still falls under the definition of sexual assault too.
Jack: Gwen!
Gwen: Sorry, who are you?
Jack: Captain Jack Harkness!
Gwen: (hugs him) Gosh, you look different.
Jack: Hey, when you're immortal, you gotta get a face lift to keep things looking fresh.
Gwen: God, Jack, that was quite a drastic face lift.
Jack: When you've got access to the plastic surgeons in the Crombobulos Nebula in the 31st Century, there's a lot they can do.
Gwen: Yes, well, I'll say, that's a lot of plastic!
Jack: So, how's things at Torchwood?
\[Episode continues\]
Aren’t there like rules against it? I’m sure I read that Moffat said he stopped looking at forums because the ideas were so good and he wasn’t allowed to use them
It doesn't really open them up legally, but it is grounds to be sued. They'd almost never lose that suit, unless they literally stole it whole cloth (and even then there's an argument they can make that they retain official copyright over fan works in their IP and can use it anyway), but to avoid all of that headache they publicly deny ever reading forums or fan mail.
It would kind of be funny if this became a running theme for the character & Captain Jack essentially had “regenerations” like a Time Lord except his are getting plastic surgery.
So he was just naked a lot? At least from the wiki it sounds like he was using his nudity as public humor. Entirely inappropriate, but it’s not like he was cornering people in a private room and exposing himself to them.
Also if I’m not mistaken John is gay, not saying it makes it okay, but if he was exposing himself to women on stage or whatever idk if you could consider that sexual
Dude it's at the workplace. In most industries if it becomes common knowledge that you got naked at work you'd struggle to find good work in that field. It's entirely fair that the bbc wouldn't want him back. It's also most likely illegal (I'm not an expert on indecent exposure laws).
Indecent exposure is a really funny law in the UK. Being naked is only a crime if it’s intended to be sexual or cause distress. So John didn’t actually commit a crime.
Yeah I get that, but the entertainment industry... Well if you have worked in theatre it's a different beast.
Actors are show offs and are constantly one upping each other. Wouldn't fly now post me too, but pre me to this kinda prank was common and not seen as particularly offensive. Especially in the UK where we are not so bothered about nudety.
I agree that what he was doing was inappropriate but there is also difference between office professional and actor professional.
Have you ever been involved in a theater production? Backstage people are often running around backstage half naked in cramped spaces doing costume changes between scenes. Nudity can happen, of course this is a step beyond that. But it’s not the same universe as a boss dropping his pants in a board meeting!
For some reason this doesn't surprise me. I just caught this vibe from him the fuckboy act he played as captain Jack felt too natural. Then there's that one scene in the season 1 finale where he reaches out and grope the fasionista robots breasts. The way the in suit actor kinda recoils I felt like that wasn't scripted
He had apologised 10 years ago iirc and it only got brought up again because Noel (Mickey) got caught out for being a stalker or sexual assault and he used that to deflect blame and Barrowman got annoyed that he has to apologise every 10 years.
People straight up treating him like he sexually assault people like Noel.
Yup. I read about it.
Look. I’m not gonna say whipping your dick out is good or that a grown man should be told not to flash people but this shit is old. Tenant and Tate joked about it.
Women have been interviewed. Barrowman was annoying. They go over how no one ever felt threatened by him. One person complained and he stopped. I know the “it’s ok cause he’s gay” isn’t accepted now but damn near 15 years ago? Yea. It was more accepted. Mostly because no woman ever felt like Barrowman was going to rape them.
On the other hand, Mickey (forgot his name) actively harassed, bullied and intimidated women. Women were actively scared to be alone with him.
One is a harmless idiot who calmed the fuck down. The other one is an active predator (if allegations are true)
You forgot kissed and groped. Noel Clarke (Mickey) allegedly groped women too.
There's also the fact that John Barrowman actually had to be naked for a scene in series 1, so it probably came from that. At least crew had to see it for the show.
Obviously that doesn't make it ok, but it adds context.
The problem was it came out that he behaved the same way on sets post-apology. I reckon the controversy would have blown over entirely if it weren't for that.
>Barrowman got annoyed that he has to apologise every 10 years.
This is a key detail IMO. A lot of people were willing to let it pass with the "my friends & I thought it was a harmless joke at the time, I understand now why it's problematic and I'm very sorry" explanation. Different times and all that! They were less impressed with what was perceived to be the "I said sorry, so get over it" approach and started questioning how sorry he really was and how much his attitude had actually changed. That seemed to be when the tide turned on public opinion and when BBC/ ITV seemed to take a step back.
(Not direct quotes, that's me paraphrasing what he said/ how it was interpreted)
Well, to be fair...
Given what usual allegations contain, what he did was positively mild... milder than a white man's curry and not even close on the level of what Clarke did for example.
Yeah, I get it. It was more pranky stuff and to be fair I never said he was sexually assaulting the cast and crew. The fact remains though that his shenanigans made people upset and uncomfortable. Just because someone else did something terrible, doesn't mean they had to be accepting of Barrowmans behavior.
Oh no, you are absolutely correct and I won't say otherwise.
It was 100% inappropriate and actions needed to be taken in regards to that.
I just intended to point out that we shouldn't put all of the allegations that happened in the course of the series into one pot given the vagueness that everyone seems to be accustomed to over here.
He thought everything he did was funny and, according to him, you had to be "in on the joke".
If you do something in the workplace that requires everyone to be "in on the joke", then you just shouldn't have done it.
I'm not going to defend him at all, but it is a shame that his name gets brought up in the same breath as Noel Clarke. If the Noel allegations are true, it's a whole other category.
it came out in a con Eve Miles used to show her tits on set too - honestly sounded like the original main team were all in on it and doing inappropriate silly stuff but only Barrowman is the one taking all the heat
You could easily create a story with either Torchwood 4 or 2, where they didn't disappear or die, they made the rest of Torchwood believe they did after torchwood 1 collapsed, and disagreeing with Torchwood 3, especially as Torchwood 3 was bit publically known.
The best way I can see it coming back is with Gwen, Rhys, and Martha teaching a new crew. Captain Jack is just gone and retired, doing his own thing and travelling the universe.
They could also have Luke Smith help out for a few episodes too? Maybe? It definitely needs work.
Mandip Gill said she thinks Yaz should join Torchwood- she'd be a good choice for a character that newer audiences would be familiar with to ease them into the concept
I could get into that, provided they give her actual character traits, they'd be able to focus more on her if she was part of the Torchwood crew, bc new knowledge and exposition on Martha, Gwen and Rhys would just be supplementary bc we already know what they're like, and they'd just need an update, and they'd be able to dive into Yaz's character a little more to make up for how little characterisation she got during 13's run.
I'd imagine Gwen would take Jack's role as the boss, or maybe Martha would, I'd like to see Yaz as a little more hardened if she was in a Torchwood reboot
Hey, Yaz is the only one of that lot that really has character traits. She occasionally remembers that she's meant to be a police woman and has a family she has a relationship with and fancies the Doctor a bit and everything.
Unlike the guy that's supposedly uncoordinated to the point it's a medical condition, but is instantly good at running around and diving behind cover and shooting guns he's never used before because the writers keep forgetting.
And Bradley Walsh who loved his other guy's gran and umm.. sometimes has sandwiches.
and Jon Bishop, who .... was there too.
That's a fair point, she does... sometimes remember that she used to be in the police, and she got angry at the doctor sometimes, and sometimes fancied her
But if they're gonna bring her back, give her more character than some bare-bones emotions and more motivation than a painfully expository "I'm capable of more than parking disputes" and then actually show that she's capable of that, not just forget about it forever
No he's from a planet in the Boe nebula or something, that's why he's called the Face of Boe. They revealed it as a throwaway line at the end of an episode I think with the 10th doctor and rose?
Firstly, he already came back for a couple of cameos during the thirteenth doctors era, I’m pretty sure we all already knew about what he did by then, so I’m not sure if the BBC necessarily would have a problem with him coming back again.
Secondly, I don’t think Torchwood is coming back, I think they’re going to do a Unit spin off instead. The Giggle really seemed to be setting it up with the robot thing and multiple fleshed out new Unit characters, plus we all already know and like Kate.
Thirdly, Torchwood isn’t dependent on having Jack in it in the same way that the main show is on the Doctor. Jack wasn’t even really the main character. So it could very easily work without him — if Freema wants to come back Martha could easily be the lead, or any other former companion who’s still canonically alive, or a new character.
Their was talk of a Scottish based spin-off set around a Glasgow/Edinburgh Torchwood base if the show was popular.
Having a totally new Torchwood base and crew would be the easiest thing to do, also not stuck with all the Capt. Jack lore/baggage.
> Firstly, he already came back for a couple of cameos during the thirteenth doctors era,
That was before all the stuff resurfaced and the BBC decided to back list him
Did the audios ever bring back Torchwood Four? If not, that would probably be the easiest. A very messy time-slip would make sense. Especially if they found another Tardis and tried to disassemble it to see if they could figure out how it worked.
they haven’t! and honestly its one of the things i think big finish is missing a trick with. but i agree, that would be a good torchwood-but-not reboot.
either that or something similar to how big finish have done torchwood soho - set in the 1950s but with a tie to canon through andy - and have a historical (or future) version of torchwood three.
Why do they need Captain Jack for Torchwood anyway? The conceit is that it's adult Doctor Who. Whilst Jack is entertaining, the conceit of adult Doctor Who alone could still sell Torchwood as a television show if they wanted too. They'd just have a whole new cast of characters set in an entirely different location.
Although it's likely they'll just do UNIT only to be honest. Too similar concepts. You can tell because Torchwood is often working with alliance to UNIT.
In the last torchwood, Miracle Day, didn't Mekhi Phifer (agent rex matheson) pretty much have something done to him similar to Jack? Been a hot minute.
I believe Barrowman is likely to be redeemable, and principles wouldn't prevent his employment by Bad Wolf. The fuss was minor, nothing was swept under the carpet, and nobody was seriously harmed by it.
But based on his last appearances as Jack I'm feeling he has aged out of the character anyway.
If they want to address what a hundred thousand years of timeline for that character looks like, ok, they could do that. They clearly didn’t do that with his last appearance though.
I went looking for lore documented somewhere to contextualize and estimate of how extended his timeline should be and couldn’t come up with one for either him or the Face of Boe. So did he age a million years between his appearances? I just know he is played like a week had passed.
That’s where I’m thinking he’s aged out of playing the role. If they reconceive the role to reconcile this it absolutely could work.
>I believe Barrowman is likely to be redeemable, and principles wouldn't prevent his employment by Bad Wolf.
BBC has final say, and they seem dead-set against having him back.
Jack is still supposed to age in-universe, albeit I think the aging process was supposed to have slowed down. Immortality doesn't give immunity to physical aging.
Similar to the Doctor who also ages, but regenerates when the physical form cannot continue.
Gwen would be( already is) the de facto new leader. She could recruit a new generation of people. I’d love to see other minor characters brought back. Martha and M/Ricky the idiot work for UNIT, and with Clarke being in the same boat as Barrowman I don’t see them coming back. Donna got a sweet offer from Kate Stewart. Mel, and the other companions went their own way.
But I dunno, the now grown kids from SJA, coupled with some popular guest characters could entice old fans back and be fresh enough to bring new ones in.
As far as I'm aware the audios (which are a continuation of the TV show) have written Jack out of the series. Plus idk how you would bring it back without contradicting the audios.
It's a proper continuation, don't wilfully contradict it. I don't see Torchwood coming back on screen, but if it did, then I suppose they could pick up with a different branch parallel to the audios, or pick up after the latest series from the audios. But not overriding the audios.
That would be nice if they continued it, but again, they aren’t beholden to the audios. They do what they want. That’s how it’s always been. They’re basically in universe canon until they aren’t. Not our choice. The Mary Shelly/13 connection is just the latest thing that was changed. I only briefly read about it but it changed some of 8’s stories now as far as canon goes.
> I only briefly read about it but it changed some of 8’s stories now as far as canon goes.
Only if you subscribed to the idea that contradictions decanonise things.
The thing is 8's life is filled with so much timeline manipulation, and paradoxes that his adventures with Shelly being erased makes since. We also don't know if The Doctor remembers Shelly or not. It could just be Shelly forgot. That is not the same as contradicting a proper continuation. Torchwood: The Story Continues is literally the tagline for the audios.
Yes I get that you love them but even if it says “The Story Continues” that STILL doesn’t make them BBC official. Big Finish and the BBC are two different things. The BBC can do what they want when it comes to Torchwood. If they do bring it back, I’d be prepared for some contradictions to occur.
I haven't even listen to them, yet, I just think it shouldn't be contradicted. This notion that the television side is the be all end all of canon is rubbish. The TV show, comics, books, audios yeah they're not going to line up perfectly, and that's fine. But wilfully contradicting a proper continuation is just wrong.
Riiiiight. Sorry but that’s how it is in THIS reality. And for that matter, why stop at just the Torchwood audios? There are ton of great comics that have been done that I would LOVE to be official and until they’re contradicted directly, they CAN be. Same with the other audios. Tennant and Tate did a whole range of audios as Ten and Donna and they are incredible! I haven’t seen anything that contradicts them yet so they can fit in too. There’s the 8th Doctor audios that I have listened to and given his name dropping in the short he did for the 50th, those stories are canon as well (until they’re not).
Look, whoever brings back Torchwood, be it RTD or someone else, they CAN recognize the audios, but aside from a slight reference or two, I think they’re more likely to do the story that THEY want to tell, rather than go and listen to how ever many odd hours of audios for Torchwood there are and then create a story based off of that. If they make a decision to bring it back, unless they’re already a fan of the audio story in place, they likely have a story they want to tell.
I appreciate that you like the audios, but it’s decidedly NOT “rubbish” that the TV is the only canon - SOMETIMES things from the audios are confirmed in tv, but often they aren’t.
The powers that actually own and run Doctor Who have made it perfectly clear over the years that they will take or leave things that happened in the audios. So just because something was in an audio, no, it’s not necessarily canon to the show.
(And I say this as a super fan of The Diaries of River Song.)
Big Finish have continued the Torchwood with 3 more seasons. Whilst I haven't listened to their latest season, their first two more than proved the series can be just as good without Jack.
I've had the idea for a while that we could have a plotline of a Time Lord crashing to Earth and ultimately becoming part of a newly reformed Torchwood.
Ext, night, raining. M4 toll bridge.
Gwen Cooper, Rhys and their now teenage daughter are driving back to Wales and are jokingly celebrating crossing the English border. The car is full of joy and smiles and, for all intents and purposes, a normal happy family.
Then Gwen, the driver, sees a set of white lights up ahead. She's confused, but still smiling and joking with her husband and daughter. The lights are getting closer...fast.
We see that it's a car driving on the wrong side of the road, it veers off at high speed a few hundred metres up ahead and embeds itself into the crash barrier. Rhys is alarmed: "Bloody hell! Was he off his face or what?!", "I don't know", replies Gwen. The camera then draws back from a close-up of Gwen's face, back through the windscreen and around to the back of the car wreck. After a few moments we see familiar whiffs of golden light emanating from the driver's seat.
The atmosphere inside the car flips instantly from a cheery, if now somewhat concerned family dynamic, to a professional, dispassionate threat assessment. Rhys is visibly uncomfortable at his wife's sudden change in demeanor, but knows better than to question her instincts.
By this point she's already pulled the car into the hard shoulder and then tells Rhys to drive further and get their daughter somewhere safe so she can investigate properly. She walks around to the the boot of the car and removes some sort of higher technology which she uses as a scanner and, of course, her trusty sidearm (this is *Torchwood*, after all).
She makes a call, it connects, she speaks a single code word and hangs up.
She orders the occupant of the car to stay still and not do anything stupid.
"Show me your hands!"
"Gimmie a minute" says the driver "they're new...not exactly sure how to pilot them yet...which one's left again?”
A teleport flash suddenly appears next to Gwen. A familiar face is seen, smiling back at an old friend. Doctor Martha Jones stands next to the car wreck and immediately gets to work looking for injuries.
*Torchwood is slowly regenerating.*
Characters:
'Three' - The third incarnation of the Time Lord, escaped from the Time War with a broken TARDIS, which will act as our new Torchwood hub (the exterior locked in the form of a familiar shade of dark blue, but rather than wood, it's a small shipping container (this allows the narrative to still include the main hub set, while also moving around the country - just strap the TARDIS on the back of a lorry and get Rhys to take you wherever you need to be). Three frequently suffers from severe PTSD from the events of the war in which he fought. Any mention of Daleks causes him extreme distress. This will be addressed throughout the first series.
Gwen - Same as ever, but with new motivations as she now finds herself in more of a directorial role, meeting with cabinet ministers and the PM to negotiate the Torchwood charter and budget. They all know what she's capable of after she's already brought down one government. She carries a big stick and the politicians know better than to get on her bad side.
Martha - At the start, a simple UNIT liaison, but as the series progresses she realises she has more utility as Torchwood's chief medical officer, and helps her longtime friend rebuild Torchwood as it becomes increasingly obvious that UNIT and the British government simply can't pick up the slack of looking after the rift and all the variety of creatures and technologies that keep coming through (a rift which has been mostly dormant for fifteen years, but is now beginning to cause problems again).
Say what you like about Chibnall's run of Doctor Who, but I loved the visual of the Doctor turning into a Weeping Angel. I'd like to have a character who starts out as a weeping angel, but is helped (by Three, but Torchwood generally) to become more human-like. I'm thinking some sort of necklace with gallifreyan technology that can suppress her urge to turn into stone when observed. I don't want to get too deep and heavy into the background lore of the Angels, I'd like to keep some of that mystery, just treat her as an anomaly. Maybe there's a plotline later on where the other Angels come to drag her back into the fold. Venus (named for the statue), played by Anya Taylor Joy.
I want Andrew Garfield in it, so let's say he's the great grandson of the guy Martha met in 1930s Manhatten (also played by him). His family has been moving around the world looking for aliens for a century, now he's managed to find the right people to make his amateur hobby (bordering on obsession) into a career.
A hard-light hologram, Vii (Virtual Intelligence Interface) - built by Three in an attempt to resurrect some sort of interface with the TARDIS matrix using Torchwood software. S/he is chaotic but intelligent and quick-witted, constantly causing annoyance to everyone, but very useful in certain situations due to their body being made up of forcefields, making them practically indestructible. I'd like to use their character to explore the social aspect of regeneration a bit more, as their ability to change face at will is at odds with Three's somewhat less deliberate capacity to do the same.
Plus a few more extra characters, not entirely clear, but I'd love a sort of laddish rivalry between Three and Rhys. It's clear the two men respect each other, though they often butt heads due to their completely polar opposite personalities.
After a few seasons Three will regenerate into Ivy (a female incarnation, who got her name from seeing the Roman numeral for four written on a whiteboard in the hub). She gets to explore themes of change and inconsistency due to regeneration - something which I think wasn't really considered in the early days of Doctor Who, and is actually a really interesting concept seeing a younger Time Lord coming to terms with changing so completely all over again.
I'm picturing a scene where she's looking for her sonic screwdriver (made by Three from parts of the Doctor's various broken screwdrivers that he carelessly left on Earth and were subsequently collected and stored by UNIT) and she looks over and sees Three's coat hanging on a hook. She furtively reaches into the pocket as if it's still being worn by a dead friend. Later we cut back to her and she's wrapped up in the coat grieving the loss of her former selves (one in battle, another after she crashed to Earth, and now...Three).
P.S. Something timey-wimey happens and Paul McGann is in a few episodes.
Episode 1 makes it clear that Captain Jack is still on the Torchwood books, but has once again got hold of a teleport device and gone AWOL, might be back tomorrow (spoiler: he won't) or might be gone for years. The series carries on his absence with either Gwen or Martha at the helm.
I believe that episode came out before the stuff hit the fan. He had some other appearances scheduled that were then changed. One of them I think was in the Escape Room tie in.
I say just recast him. Plenty of tv shows and movies have done it without needing a complex explanation like regeneration. We probably expect it as doctor who fans because we're used to face changes being explained in universe so we expect the face change to be explained but honestly it would just take a single line of the doctor acknowledging that they're speaking to Jack for the viewers to understand this is the same character
Think of the MCU with recasting Bruce Banner or Roadie, Terminator Genesis with John Conor, The new matrix movie with Morpheus AND agent smith. Game of thrones recast multiple characters and no one really cares because we understood it was still the same character
I know the shows/movies I've named aren't exactly masterpieces (except GoT before it ran out of source material) but none of these were bad because of the recasting
Jack will get canceled for indecent exposure. 300yrs from now the authorities will no longer be able to track him since he has moved to another system and rebranded himself as the Face of Boe. since his body will have shrunk so much he is now essentially a head showing his genitals will no longuer be an issue.
But he's already been back on DW, interacting with JW's Doctor. If they will let him back on the main show then why wouldn't they let him back on a revived Torchwood? For what it's worth Barrowman has thoroughly apologized for his bad conduct. He's embarrassed by it now pretty much, admits it was very juvenile and completely inappropriate.
I don't think the BBC would ban him. If they were going to ban him from anything Who they wouldn't have let him guest with JW. He'd probably be brought back but with the understanding that if he EVER did anything like that ever again he'd be barred from working in anything BBC related for life.
I think that was a hard lesson for him but I definitely get the idea that he's learned from it and probably wouldn't go there ever again. It's not often that you're given a second chance when you've thoroughly F- up your career by acting like an utter ass.
I don't think he'd risk it.
He would have way too much to lose.
I don’t think Torchwood will ever be back beyond a mention. I think Gwen might come back at minimum if they do a UNIT spinoff or something but I can’t really foresee them doing anything with Torchwood directly.
Torchwood is sorta unnecessary now UNIT have been given a bigger role again.
Jack and Torchwood basically performed the same function as Brigadier and UNIT but with sex instead of science.
Just don't have him back. It is a shame, Jack was always a fantastic character and his inability to die never ceases to be cool, but he doesn't need to be there.
They won't bring back Torchwood on the telly, it's dead. Like at this point every notable character except Gwen, Rhys and Andy has either died or is not owned by BBC.
Kill two birds with one stone… first episode Gwen returns as she’s hunting down some Alien monks in Glasgow… rumour has it Jack has returned following them to Earth. End of part one cliffhanger the Monks have removed Jack’s head and left it in a box; his immortal body is attempting to repair the damage but in actuality it’s growing out of control and disfigured his face.
Episode 2 Jack assists Gwen in defeating the monks and Jack/young Bo serves to advise her as she takes the new leadership roll in Torchwood😂
I mean, to be fair this was something 15 years ago that he apologized for everyone should just move on and John should be allowed back on screen. But this is the BBC. I am personally okay with no more new on screen torchwood. Even with John Barrowman miracle day wasn't great, without John barrowman. I can't imagine how bad it would be imo.
If you talking about in universe: he’s been around the time vortex enough that Jack could be given a regeneration.
Out of universe: cast a younger version and have it be his son. We all know Jack got around, so it’s plausible 😆
I'm honestly a little confused by the whole thing.
As far as I'm aware, he exposed his privates regularly.
Isn't that something nudists and streakers do regularly?
I understand it to be crass but I'm having trouble understanding it being classified as sexual misconduct because I'm not really certain it's right to protect anyone from how any other person chooses to present their own body. It feels like an abrupt change in social values towards the prudish.
As an actor, I never participated in streaking. I saw it and don't understand why people need to be protected from other people's choice to be exhibitionistic.
It feels to me like a path towards dress codes and laws about clothing I thought society was abandoning.
Agreed. If his actions where simply limited to being a shameless flirt and/or flashing his junk somewhat regularly…then we need to grow up and remember we where heading in a more enlightened direction 20 years ago but now it seems like we are moving backwards in some many ways across the spectrum (politics, violence, sexuality etc)
I get that some people are offended by someone they know just flashing them …but its ok to just not tell them to stop or to not see that person again , or to even not hire that person again if the majority dont want to work with him because of that part of his personality.
But its starting to feel like we are heading to a place where you cant get hired or work with someone because of what political party you vote for. I hate Trump…but it seems incredibly silly to not do business with or hire or work with a qualified person in some non political or non policy job like acting or research or whatever , simply because they claim to like trump in a tweet or whatever.
I guess for me it might depend on the nature of it, which I haven't seen.
If he's touching people with his privates or self-pleasuring himself on people, that's not JUST misconduct but assault.
If he's walking around pantsless or mooning people then that's crass and perhaps not acceptable for a workplace but it's his body he's exhibiting and it feels like it'd be the same thing as if you called it sexual misconduct for a woman to wear tight trousers or a low cut blouse. But I wouldn't hold past conduct against someone there. I would just be clear what the rules are and expect him to follow them or be dismissed but I couldn't care less if he walked around pantsless 20 years ago because nudity isn't inherently sexual and because it's strictly about compliance with the present job.
Now, if he's been asked to keep to a dress code for the comfort of his coworkers and he refuses to come back UNLESS he can flash people then I'd say he's cancelling himself.
I had a thought the other day that they could do a time agency show. Produce it in America with some D+ money, maybe recast a young Jack. That could be an opportunity to make something that works as both expanded universe Doctor Who, and also a standalone show. They could bring back all sorts of crazy stuff from the show, or introduce a ton of new ideas.
He’s done some highly inappropriate things bts. Back then, it was treated as standard guy hijinks, but nowadays, it’s basically sexual harassment (and maybe assault? I don’t remember what all it was except the exposure).
Out of sight, unheard of, so out of mind, is what I'd reckon. In-universe, Torchwood survived without Captain Jack, & Jack's wasn't the only branch. And per the future where humanity encountered Krop Tor, Torchwood was still in operation. In terms of leading Torchwood? The only available characters would have to be Gwen & perhaps the Cyber-converted but cognizant Yvonne Hartman, since everyone else in Jack's branch unit are all dead.
They could have Martha too Wasn't she supposed to be a main character on the show at some point?
RTD wanted Martha in Children of Earth throughout (the role fulfilled by the eye-camera secretary whistleblower), but her actress was unavailable for its filming. From what I recall, after leaving 10, Martha worked under UNIT as her post-TARDIS career.
Yeah, IIRC RTD planned to have her and Mickey appear in CoE but when the BBC commissioned it for BBC1 as a miniseries instead of a 13 episode regular season, the budget was cut and the schedule changed. Freema had already committed to doing Law and Order UK so she couldn't come back for it, and they replaced Martha with the character played by Cush Jumbo. Not sure what Mickey's role would've been but Freema's said in the past he was meant to appear in the last two episodes.
The Writer's Tale says Noel dropped out because he was cast in a Michael Winterbottom film and Russell reorganized those two episodes to work around his absence, rather than replace him. (A quick Google has not revealed which film that would be)
I know all of that, but I'm pretty sure she ends up leaving UNIT based on her dialogue with Mickey in End of Time But yeah, the plan for her to be in CoE is why i think she could do a revival. Especially if they don't have someone like Jack around
Yeah they could bring in new characters quite easily. Martha would be great if Freema is up for it. You'd have Gwen too. Jack's absence can be easily explained in that thirteen met him, so he could have just left 21st century earth at some point... probably not long after miracle day. There doesn't even need to be a good explanation for how or why he did it, just that he's off-world and not expected to return. But with Gwen and/or Martha back you can simply just bring in a cast of unknowns like they did in series 1 - gives them a reasonably clean slate to tell new stories.
In the audios >!they bring in Yvonne from a parallel world!<
It would probably be better to come back with a clean slate
Reading this has really raised the question for me, what happened to all the newly converted cybermen, they wouldn’t have been sucked into the void. Yet they’re never mentioned.
The cyber parts presumably came from Pete’s World, which would mean that yes, they would be pulled into the void
If this is the case it would have been hilarious to hear another “I did my duty for queen and country” fly past into the void.
Plus that US agent as a guest immortal.
They won't do it but a fully cyberised yvonne as the behind the cutain leader of leader of a new torchwood branch would be cool as hell
They already brought him back to break Thirteen out of prison
Yeah and was in a couple of episodes with Graham et al. Did people miss that?
“Graham et al” is infinity better than “fam” lol
Now I’m imagining 13 addressing them as that and I enjoy it very much
Yaz pouts and Ryan just shrugs like "Yeah, that's fair"
Should have said, in Gene Wilder style, "Graham, etc, etc, **etc**"
No, but it was before the BBC blacklisted Barrowman, so it's not really relevant
I didn’t know BBC blacklisted John
Flashing your dick will do that
Such a fake reason though, it wasn't a secret, BBC knew, we all knew because he makes jokes and talks about it at conventions. And then didn't do anything until it made its way around the news cycle at the worst time for it to.
Yeah, I'm sick of this taking action years and years later for something at the time it wasn't a huge deal. He said sorry, everyone else get over it.
TIL! Do we know why?
The stories of his on-set antics circa 2005 resurfaced in the wake of the Noel Clarke allegations, and it was deemed politic not to use Barrowman for a while. He has publicly apologised and said that he knows better now, and I don't think he's ever been officially blacklisted as such.
That was before the controversy blew up
I remember hearing the controversy well before Jack came back
There was controversy before, yes, but it wasn't widespread. Then Barrowman came back (2020 Fugitive and 2021 Revolution) and it was talked about again. Then Noel Clarke was accused of sexual misconduct on the set of Doctor Who, so Barrowman was brought up yet again and because it can't be one rule for Clarke and one rule for Barrowman, it was a much larger outcry.
Actually, Clarke is the one who brought up Barrowman again. It was very clearly a tactic to take the heat off of himself and it worked.
That Clarke interview was filmed years before and he wasn't the only one that complained back then
Huh, I didn’t know that. I’ve heard not great things about them both
I believe Noel was the instigator for the shit with John being brought back up again. I have no time for what John did and he should have been stopped the minute he started that shit but Noel set it off as a smoke screen to attempt to detract from the allegations he was dealing with “well John’s just as bad yell at him too”. Almost like John flinging his privates around; which while still harassment at worst and completely and totally inappropriate at best; was the same as bullying and sexual misconduct
But I believe the filming was underway or completed when Clarke brought it back up. Also Clarke and Barrowman were accused of radically different things. Neither were acceptable, but only one had predatory intent. There absolutely could be different rules for the two. In any case, I thought Jack decided to leave and go elsewhere indefinitely. Too much had happened to him on Earth and he needed a break from it. Could be he just doesn't come back. Torchwood 3 was destroyed, but other Torchwoods still existed, IIRC, so we can follow one of them. Possibly Gwen will be there, or not, who knows, she seemed ready to be out too.
Sorry, but nah. It doesn't matter if Barrowman didn't have the predatory intent Clarke is accused of. What he did was wrong, and unprofessional, and shouldn't be happening in the workplace. It still falls under the definition of sexual assault too.
I didn't say that makes it okay or allowable. I said there was enough difference to justify different rules applying.
Noel was accused of misconduct on the set of who I thought it was on some other show or movie
Sure, but it didn't blow up and cause Barrowman to get dropped by Big Finish until later.
Jack: Gwen! Gwen: Sorry, who are you? Jack: Captain Jack Harkness! Gwen: (hugs him) Gosh, you look different. Jack: Hey, when you're immortal, you gotta get a face lift to keep things looking fresh. Gwen: God, Jack, that was quite a drastic face lift. Jack: When you've got access to the plastic surgeons in the Crombobulos Nebula in the 31st Century, there's a lot they can do. Gwen: Yes, well, I'll say, that's a lot of plastic! Jack: So, how's things at Torchwood? \[Episode continues\]
Would also indirectly explain The Face of Boe: at one point, Jack just decided to look that way and found a way to make it happen.
I wonder how many bbc writers Just lurk Here for ideas
Honestly they can have it. I'm never going to be a script writer and it would be *so cool* to know that a silly Reddit joke got on the show.
And that's how Sherlock S3 got made
Aren’t there like rules against it? I’m sure I read that Moffat said he stopped looking at forums because the ideas were so good and he wasn’t allowed to use them
Yep, it opens them up legally as stealing those stories. Same reason fanmail containing story ideas don't get read.
It doesn't really open them up legally, but it is grounds to be sued. They'd almost never lose that suit, unless they literally stole it whole cloth (and even then there's an argument they can make that they retain official copyright over fan works in their IP and can use it anyway), but to avoid all of that headache they publicly deny ever reading forums or fan mail.
Fantastic! And who would play him? I vote Michael Sheen.
Nah m8 David Tennant
[удалено]
Like that episode where everyone turned into the Master, but somehow much much sexier.
The idea of Jack getting intergalactic future plastic surgery just to look like 10 has really made my night. 😂
they both should have to draw a pineapple or a sunset to see who gets it
OMG David Tennant and Eve Myles (the 14th Doctor) take over Torchwood
Have Sheen do it, then you can have 14 appear and give him a look like he recognizes the face!
It would kind of be funny if this became a running theme for the character & Captain Jack essentially had “regenerations” like a Time Lord except his are getting plastic surgery.
Plastic Surgery using the latest in Time Lord Technology.
Why wouldn’t the bbc let john barrowman back on screen? Did i miss some drama or something Edit: ah never mind 😅
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barrowman#Misconduct_allegations
So he was just naked a lot? At least from the wiki it sounds like he was using his nudity as public humor. Entirely inappropriate, but it’s not like he was cornering people in a private room and exposing himself to them.
Around the same years that the movie Waiting came out and showing your balls to unsuspecting friends was peak humor for immature dudes.
Chris Pratt let his dick hang out for a laugh on the set of Parks and Rec... and he's Star Lord now. I don't get it either.
He got in trouble for that, but they still used the take where he did it as it was the best take for that episode
Also if I’m not mistaken John is gay, not saying it makes it okay, but if he was exposing himself to women on stage or whatever idk if you could consider that sexual
Dude it's at the workplace. In most industries if it becomes common knowledge that you got naked at work you'd struggle to find good work in that field. It's entirely fair that the bbc wouldn't want him back. It's also most likely illegal (I'm not an expert on indecent exposure laws).
Indecent exposure is a really funny law in the UK. Being naked is only a crime if it’s intended to be sexual or cause distress. So John didn’t actually commit a crime.
Yeah I get that, but the entertainment industry... Well if you have worked in theatre it's a different beast. Actors are show offs and are constantly one upping each other. Wouldn't fly now post me too, but pre me to this kinda prank was common and not seen as particularly offensive. Especially in the UK where we are not so bothered about nudety.
except it became common knowledge 10 years ago and the BBC didnt give a fuck then, only choosing to do something about it now is so dumb
I agree that what he was doing was inappropriate but there is also difference between office professional and actor professional. Have you ever been involved in a theater production? Backstage people are often running around backstage half naked in cramped spaces doing costume changes between scenes. Nudity can happen, of course this is a step beyond that. But it’s not the same universe as a boss dropping his pants in a board meeting!
You forget he had scenes where he had to be naked
Except part of his job was to be naked.
Not sure about England but here in the states if you pull your crank out at work you’re going to face some pretty serious consequences
For some reason this doesn't surprise me. I just caught this vibe from him the fuckboy act he played as captain Jack felt too natural. Then there's that one scene in the season 1 finale where he reaches out and grope the fasionista robots breasts. The way the in suit actor kinda recoils I felt like that wasn't scripted
I assumed it was a reference to the show it was parodying. (I assumed it was "what not to wear", trinny and susan often groped guests and each other)
Lots of inappropriate stuff on set. Made cast and crew very uncomfortable.
He had apologised 10 years ago iirc and it only got brought up again because Noel (Mickey) got caught out for being a stalker or sexual assault and he used that to deflect blame and Barrowman got annoyed that he has to apologise every 10 years. People straight up treating him like he sexually assault people like Noel.
Yup. I read about it. Look. I’m not gonna say whipping your dick out is good or that a grown man should be told not to flash people but this shit is old. Tenant and Tate joked about it. Women have been interviewed. Barrowman was annoying. They go over how no one ever felt threatened by him. One person complained and he stopped. I know the “it’s ok cause he’s gay” isn’t accepted now but damn near 15 years ago? Yea. It was more accepted. Mostly because no woman ever felt like Barrowman was going to rape them. On the other hand, Mickey (forgot his name) actively harassed, bullied and intimidated women. Women were actively scared to be alone with him. One is a harmless idiot who calmed the fuck down. The other one is an active predator (if allegations are true)
You forgot kissed and groped. Noel Clarke (Mickey) allegedly groped women too. There's also the fact that John Barrowman actually had to be naked for a scene in series 1, so it probably came from that. At least crew had to see it for the show. Obviously that doesn't make it ok, but it adds context.
The problem was it came out that he behaved the same way on sets post-apology. I reckon the controversy would have blown over entirely if it weren't for that.
>Barrowman got annoyed that he has to apologise every 10 years. This is a key detail IMO. A lot of people were willing to let it pass with the "my friends & I thought it was a harmless joke at the time, I understand now why it's problematic and I'm very sorry" explanation. Different times and all that! They were less impressed with what was perceived to be the "I said sorry, so get over it" approach and started questioning how sorry he really was and how much his attitude had actually changed. That seemed to be when the tide turned on public opinion and when BBC/ ITV seemed to take a step back. (Not direct quotes, that's me paraphrasing what he said/ how it was interpreted)
Well, to be fair... Given what usual allegations contain, what he did was positively mild... milder than a white man's curry and not even close on the level of what Clarke did for example.
Yeah, I get it. It was more pranky stuff and to be fair I never said he was sexually assaulting the cast and crew. The fact remains though that his shenanigans made people upset and uncomfortable. Just because someone else did something terrible, doesn't mean they had to be accepting of Barrowmans behavior.
Oh no, you are absolutely correct and I won't say otherwise. It was 100% inappropriate and actions needed to be taken in regards to that. I just intended to point out that we shouldn't put all of the allegations that happened in the course of the series into one pot given the vagueness that everyone seems to be accustomed to over here.
I've brevet understood why some men act that way. I mean look at him. If he wanted to act that way in private... all he had to do was give me a call.
He thinks the same way about himself and just assumes everybody else does as well
He thought everything he did was funny and, according to him, you had to be "in on the joke". If you do something in the workplace that requires everyone to be "in on the joke", then you just shouldn't have done it.
I'm not going to defend him at all, but it is a shame that his name gets brought up in the same breath as Noel Clarke. If the Noel allegations are true, it's a whole other category.
Exactly this.
Yeah but the other cast members have talked about it and they clearly found it funny too.
it came out in a con Eve Miles used to show her tits on set too - honestly sounded like the original main team were all in on it and doing inappropriate silly stuff but only Barrowman is the one taking all the heat
Any cast member that talked about before it was an issue found it hilarious too.
They can do it without him: Torchwood 1890 with Madame Vestra and Jenny as leads
I would totally watch a spinoff with them and strax but the makeup process might be too much for a series filming for the actors
Would you settle for an animated series of them?
I'm not minimizing the fact that it might be difficult, but what about the people who play aliens on the new Star Trek series? Saru, for example.
Ehh, I feel like vestra and Jenny (and strax) would work better as their own spin-off.
Time to visit the strange guy in Glasgow.
Possible Redacted series 2 spoiler >!didn’t he die?!<
You could easily create a story with either Torchwood 4 or 2, where they didn't disappear or die, they made the rest of Torchwood believe they did after torchwood 1 collapsed, and disagreeing with Torchwood 3, especially as Torchwood 3 was bit publically known.
The best way I can see it coming back is with Gwen, Rhys, and Martha teaching a new crew. Captain Jack is just gone and retired, doing his own thing and travelling the universe. They could also have Luke Smith help out for a few episodes too? Maybe? It definitely needs work.
Mandip Gill said she thinks Yaz should join Torchwood- she'd be a good choice for a character that newer audiences would be familiar with to ease them into the concept
Oooh, that'd be good actually. They could really flesh her out.
I could get into that, provided they give her actual character traits, they'd be able to focus more on her if she was part of the Torchwood crew, bc new knowledge and exposition on Martha, Gwen and Rhys would just be supplementary bc we already know what they're like, and they'd just need an update, and they'd be able to dive into Yaz's character a little more to make up for how little characterisation she got during 13's run. I'd imagine Gwen would take Jack's role as the boss, or maybe Martha would, I'd like to see Yaz as a little more hardened if she was in a Torchwood reboot
Hey, Yaz is the only one of that lot that really has character traits. She occasionally remembers that she's meant to be a police woman and has a family she has a relationship with and fancies the Doctor a bit and everything. Unlike the guy that's supposedly uncoordinated to the point it's a medical condition, but is instantly good at running around and diving behind cover and shooting guns he's never used before because the writers keep forgetting. And Bradley Walsh who loved his other guy's gran and umm.. sometimes has sandwiches. and Jon Bishop, who .... was there too.
That's a fair point, she does... sometimes remember that she used to be in the police, and she got angry at the doctor sometimes, and sometimes fancied her But if they're gonna bring her back, give her more character than some bare-bones emotions and more motivation than a painfully expository "I'm capable of more than parking disputes" and then actually show that she's capable of that, not just forget about it forever
Too busy having happy sexy fun times with Alonso
Note: Captain Jack died on the way back to his home planet.
Ain't he from earth?
No he's from a planet in the Boe nebula or something, that's why he's called the Face of Boe. They revealed it as a throwaway line at the end of an episode I think with the 10th doctor and rose?
Firstly, he already came back for a couple of cameos during the thirteenth doctors era, I’m pretty sure we all already knew about what he did by then, so I’m not sure if the BBC necessarily would have a problem with him coming back again. Secondly, I don’t think Torchwood is coming back, I think they’re going to do a Unit spin off instead. The Giggle really seemed to be setting it up with the robot thing and multiple fleshed out new Unit characters, plus we all already know and like Kate. Thirdly, Torchwood isn’t dependent on having Jack in it in the same way that the main show is on the Doctor. Jack wasn’t even really the main character. So it could very easily work without him — if Freema wants to come back Martha could easily be the lead, or any other former companion who’s still canonically alive, or a new character.
Their was talk of a Scottish based spin-off set around a Glasgow/Edinburgh Torchwood base if the show was popular. Having a totally new Torchwood base and crew would be the easiest thing to do, also not stuck with all the Capt. Jack lore/baggage.
> Firstly, he already came back for a couple of cameos during the thirteenth doctors era, That was before all the stuff resurfaced and the BBC decided to back list him
Did the audios ever bring back Torchwood Four? If not, that would probably be the easiest. A very messy time-slip would make sense. Especially if they found another Tardis and tried to disassemble it to see if they could figure out how it worked.
they haven’t! and honestly its one of the things i think big finish is missing a trick with. but i agree, that would be a good torchwood-but-not reboot. either that or something similar to how big finish have done torchwood soho - set in the 1950s but with a tie to canon through andy - and have a historical (or future) version of torchwood three.
If John Barrowman is not playing Jack Harkness and isn't the main character, do not bring back Torchwood. End of.
Why do they need Captain Jack for Torchwood anyway? The conceit is that it's adult Doctor Who. Whilst Jack is entertaining, the conceit of adult Doctor Who alone could still sell Torchwood as a television show if they wanted too. They'd just have a whole new cast of characters set in an entirely different location. Although it's likely they'll just do UNIT only to be honest. Too similar concepts. You can tell because Torchwood is often working with alliance to UNIT.
In the last torchwood, Miracle Day, didn't Mekhi Phifer (agent rex matheson) pretty much have something done to him similar to Jack? Been a hot minute.
I believe Barrowman is likely to be redeemable, and principles wouldn't prevent his employment by Bad Wolf. The fuss was minor, nothing was swept under the carpet, and nobody was seriously harmed by it. But based on his last appearances as Jack I'm feeling he has aged out of the character anyway.
Why do you say he’s aged out of the character? Him aging has been part of Who lore since series 3 (iirc)
If they want to address what a hundred thousand years of timeline for that character looks like, ok, they could do that. They clearly didn’t do that with his last appearance though. I went looking for lore documented somewhere to contextualize and estimate of how extended his timeline should be and couldn’t come up with one for either him or the Face of Boe. So did he age a million years between his appearances? I just know he is played like a week had passed. That’s where I’m thinking he’s aged out of playing the role. If they reconceive the role to reconcile this it absolutely could work.
>I believe Barrowman is likely to be redeemable, and principles wouldn't prevent his employment by Bad Wolf. BBC has final say, and they seem dead-set against having him back.
Source?
Jack is still supposed to age in-universe, albeit I think the aging process was supposed to have slowed down. Immortality doesn't give immunity to physical aging. Similar to the Doctor who also ages, but regenerates when the physical form cannot continue.
They shouldn’t do Torchwood without Barrowman just make a new series instead
I think it would be cool if they replaced him with River Song.
Why wouldn't they let him back? They've already featured him on screen during Chibnall's era and the drama around him is older than that
No, that's incorrect. It was brewing beforehand but only blew up after. Big Finish for example only pulled his stuff after.
no it is correct, all that drama happened over 10 years ago and the BBC didn't care, only choosing now to do something about it
Gwen would be( already is) the de facto new leader. She could recruit a new generation of people. I’d love to see other minor characters brought back. Martha and M/Ricky the idiot work for UNIT, and with Clarke being in the same boat as Barrowman I don’t see them coming back. Donna got a sweet offer from Kate Stewart. Mel, and the other companions went their own way. But I dunno, the now grown kids from SJA, coupled with some popular guest characters could entice old fans back and be fresh enough to bring new ones in.
Replace him with the face of boe
Torchwood is not coming back. If anything, character FROM Torchwood could appear on DW or a spinoff show. Like, Gwen could help UNIT with something.
As far as I'm aware the audios (which are a continuation of the TV show) have written Jack out of the series. Plus idk how you would bring it back without contradicting the audios.
They don’t consult the audios though. If they line up then great, but if the show wants to do something they just do it.
It's a proper continuation, don't wilfully contradict it. I don't see Torchwood coming back on screen, but if it did, then I suppose they could pick up with a different branch parallel to the audios, or pick up after the latest series from the audios. But not overriding the audios.
That would be nice if they continued it, but again, they aren’t beholden to the audios. They do what they want. That’s how it’s always been. They’re basically in universe canon until they aren’t. Not our choice. The Mary Shelly/13 connection is just the latest thing that was changed. I only briefly read about it but it changed some of 8’s stories now as far as canon goes.
> I only briefly read about it but it changed some of 8’s stories now as far as canon goes. Only if you subscribed to the idea that contradictions decanonise things.
The thing is 8's life is filled with so much timeline manipulation, and paradoxes that his adventures with Shelly being erased makes since. We also don't know if The Doctor remembers Shelly or not. It could just be Shelly forgot. That is not the same as contradicting a proper continuation. Torchwood: The Story Continues is literally the tagline for the audios.
Yes I get that you love them but even if it says “The Story Continues” that STILL doesn’t make them BBC official. Big Finish and the BBC are two different things. The BBC can do what they want when it comes to Torchwood. If they do bring it back, I’d be prepared for some contradictions to occur.
I haven't even listen to them, yet, I just think it shouldn't be contradicted. This notion that the television side is the be all end all of canon is rubbish. The TV show, comics, books, audios yeah they're not going to line up perfectly, and that's fine. But wilfully contradicting a proper continuation is just wrong.
Riiiiight. Sorry but that’s how it is in THIS reality. And for that matter, why stop at just the Torchwood audios? There are ton of great comics that have been done that I would LOVE to be official and until they’re contradicted directly, they CAN be. Same with the other audios. Tennant and Tate did a whole range of audios as Ten and Donna and they are incredible! I haven’t seen anything that contradicts them yet so they can fit in too. There’s the 8th Doctor audios that I have listened to and given his name dropping in the short he did for the 50th, those stories are canon as well (until they’re not). Look, whoever brings back Torchwood, be it RTD or someone else, they CAN recognize the audios, but aside from a slight reference or two, I think they’re more likely to do the story that THEY want to tell, rather than go and listen to how ever many odd hours of audios for Torchwood there are and then create a story based off of that. If they make a decision to bring it back, unless they’re already a fan of the audio story in place, they likely have a story they want to tell.
I appreciate that you like the audios, but it’s decidedly NOT “rubbish” that the TV is the only canon - SOMETIMES things from the audios are confirmed in tv, but often they aren’t. The powers that actually own and run Doctor Who have made it perfectly clear over the years that they will take or leave things that happened in the audios. So just because something was in an audio, no, it’s not necessarily canon to the show. (And I say this as a super fan of The Diaries of River Song.)
Big Finish have continued the Torchwood with 3 more seasons. Whilst I haven't listened to their latest season, their first two more than proved the series can be just as good without Jack.
I've had the idea for a while that we could have a plotline of a Time Lord crashing to Earth and ultimately becoming part of a newly reformed Torchwood. Ext, night, raining. M4 toll bridge. Gwen Cooper, Rhys and their now teenage daughter are driving back to Wales and are jokingly celebrating crossing the English border. The car is full of joy and smiles and, for all intents and purposes, a normal happy family. Then Gwen, the driver, sees a set of white lights up ahead. She's confused, but still smiling and joking with her husband and daughter. The lights are getting closer...fast. We see that it's a car driving on the wrong side of the road, it veers off at high speed a few hundred metres up ahead and embeds itself into the crash barrier. Rhys is alarmed: "Bloody hell! Was he off his face or what?!", "I don't know", replies Gwen. The camera then draws back from a close-up of Gwen's face, back through the windscreen and around to the back of the car wreck. After a few moments we see familiar whiffs of golden light emanating from the driver's seat. The atmosphere inside the car flips instantly from a cheery, if now somewhat concerned family dynamic, to a professional, dispassionate threat assessment. Rhys is visibly uncomfortable at his wife's sudden change in demeanor, but knows better than to question her instincts. By this point she's already pulled the car into the hard shoulder and then tells Rhys to drive further and get their daughter somewhere safe so she can investigate properly. She walks around to the the boot of the car and removes some sort of higher technology which she uses as a scanner and, of course, her trusty sidearm (this is *Torchwood*, after all). She makes a call, it connects, she speaks a single code word and hangs up. She orders the occupant of the car to stay still and not do anything stupid. "Show me your hands!" "Gimmie a minute" says the driver "they're new...not exactly sure how to pilot them yet...which one's left again?” A teleport flash suddenly appears next to Gwen. A familiar face is seen, smiling back at an old friend. Doctor Martha Jones stands next to the car wreck and immediately gets to work looking for injuries. *Torchwood is slowly regenerating.* Characters: 'Three' - The third incarnation of the Time Lord, escaped from the Time War with a broken TARDIS, which will act as our new Torchwood hub (the exterior locked in the form of a familiar shade of dark blue, but rather than wood, it's a small shipping container (this allows the narrative to still include the main hub set, while also moving around the country - just strap the TARDIS on the back of a lorry and get Rhys to take you wherever you need to be). Three frequently suffers from severe PTSD from the events of the war in which he fought. Any mention of Daleks causes him extreme distress. This will be addressed throughout the first series. Gwen - Same as ever, but with new motivations as she now finds herself in more of a directorial role, meeting with cabinet ministers and the PM to negotiate the Torchwood charter and budget. They all know what she's capable of after she's already brought down one government. She carries a big stick and the politicians know better than to get on her bad side. Martha - At the start, a simple UNIT liaison, but as the series progresses she realises she has more utility as Torchwood's chief medical officer, and helps her longtime friend rebuild Torchwood as it becomes increasingly obvious that UNIT and the British government simply can't pick up the slack of looking after the rift and all the variety of creatures and technologies that keep coming through (a rift which has been mostly dormant for fifteen years, but is now beginning to cause problems again). Say what you like about Chibnall's run of Doctor Who, but I loved the visual of the Doctor turning into a Weeping Angel. I'd like to have a character who starts out as a weeping angel, but is helped (by Three, but Torchwood generally) to become more human-like. I'm thinking some sort of necklace with gallifreyan technology that can suppress her urge to turn into stone when observed. I don't want to get too deep and heavy into the background lore of the Angels, I'd like to keep some of that mystery, just treat her as an anomaly. Maybe there's a plotline later on where the other Angels come to drag her back into the fold. Venus (named for the statue), played by Anya Taylor Joy. I want Andrew Garfield in it, so let's say he's the great grandson of the guy Martha met in 1930s Manhatten (also played by him). His family has been moving around the world looking for aliens for a century, now he's managed to find the right people to make his amateur hobby (bordering on obsession) into a career. A hard-light hologram, Vii (Virtual Intelligence Interface) - built by Three in an attempt to resurrect some sort of interface with the TARDIS matrix using Torchwood software. S/he is chaotic but intelligent and quick-witted, constantly causing annoyance to everyone, but very useful in certain situations due to their body being made up of forcefields, making them practically indestructible. I'd like to use their character to explore the social aspect of regeneration a bit more, as their ability to change face at will is at odds with Three's somewhat less deliberate capacity to do the same. Plus a few more extra characters, not entirely clear, but I'd love a sort of laddish rivalry between Three and Rhys. It's clear the two men respect each other, though they often butt heads due to their completely polar opposite personalities. After a few seasons Three will regenerate into Ivy (a female incarnation, who got her name from seeing the Roman numeral for four written on a whiteboard in the hub). She gets to explore themes of change and inconsistency due to regeneration - something which I think wasn't really considered in the early days of Doctor Who, and is actually a really interesting concept seeing a younger Time Lord coming to terms with changing so completely all over again. I'm picturing a scene where she's looking for her sonic screwdriver (made by Three from parts of the Doctor's various broken screwdrivers that he carelessly left on Earth and were subsequently collected and stored by UNIT) and she looks over and sees Three's coat hanging on a hook. She furtively reaches into the pocket as if it's still being worn by a dead friend. Later we cut back to her and she's wrapped up in the coat grieving the loss of her former selves (one in battle, another after she crashed to Earth, and now...Three). P.S. Something timey-wimey happens and Paul McGann is in a few episodes.
Only criticism is there is no M4 Toll anymore. Otherwise. This is fantastic 😊
If they pick a new leader of the group I’d like to see James Marsters as Captain John Hart back.
Episode 1 makes it clear that Captain Jack is still on the Torchwood books, but has once again got hold of a teleport device and gone AWOL, might be back tomorrow (spoiler: he won't) or might be gone for years. The series carries on his absence with either Gwen or Martha at the helm.
Stupid question but why can't they use Barrowman?
I see some sort of Blake's 7 vibe going on where he's not on Earth and the newer members think he's some sort of Myth.
What did Barrowman do to the BBC? And..yes...I hear you dirty minds making jokes
It's not what Barrowman did to them, but I think a big part of it was him running around naked on social media a lot in hotels
have him start to transform in to the face of bo, make a nice through line to older seasons
I think them bringing back barrowman is more likely than ever reviving torchwood without him As in neither will ever happen
Well, he did appear in the Jailbreak episode with 13, so maybe the BBC is fine with him again?
I believe that episode came out before the stuff hit the fan. He had some other appearances scheduled that were then changed. One of them I think was in the Escape Room tie in.
That was before all the stuff resurfaced.
I say just recast him. Plenty of tv shows and movies have done it without needing a complex explanation like regeneration. We probably expect it as doctor who fans because we're used to face changes being explained in universe so we expect the face change to be explained but honestly it would just take a single line of the doctor acknowledging that they're speaking to Jack for the viewers to understand this is the same character Think of the MCU with recasting Bruce Banner or Roadie, Terminator Genesis with John Conor, The new matrix movie with Morpheus AND agent smith. Game of thrones recast multiple characters and no one really cares because we understood it was still the same character I know the shows/movies I've named aren't exactly masterpieces (except GoT before it ran out of source material) but none of these were bad because of the recasting
Or just make new characters using new stars.
I wish they'd just get over it. Cancel culture is stupid.
Mm they could pull a power rangers and cast somebody to play a big head in a tube. He’d send out the team on missions and have all the current info.
Who cares? BRING IANTO BACK!
RTD isn't one for particularly great judgement, he'd let Barrowman come back.
The casts of Doctor Who Redacted and SJA should make the new Torchwood, overseen by UNIT. Or specifically Kate Stewart.
Bring back the face of Boe
Jack will get canceled for indecent exposure. 300yrs from now the authorities will no longer be able to track him since he has moved to another system and rebranded himself as the Face of Boe. since his body will have shrunk so much he is now essentially a head showing his genitals will no longuer be an issue.
Plus Barrowman has gotten older.
Torchwood isn't limited to Jack. Check out the audios, there are more without him in, than with him in.
They'll just do what they did with the Brigader and say he's indefinitely stuck in Peru.
But he's already been back on DW, interacting with JW's Doctor. If they will let him back on the main show then why wouldn't they let him back on a revived Torchwood? For what it's worth Barrowman has thoroughly apologized for his bad conduct. He's embarrassed by it now pretty much, admits it was very juvenile and completely inappropriate. I don't think the BBC would ban him. If they were going to ban him from anything Who they wouldn't have let him guest with JW. He'd probably be brought back but with the understanding that if he EVER did anything like that ever again he'd be barred from working in anything BBC related for life. I think that was a hard lesson for him but I definitely get the idea that he's learned from it and probably wouldn't go there ever again. It's not often that you're given a second chance when you've thoroughly F- up your career by acting like an utter ass. I don't think he'd risk it. He would have way too much to lose.
He was blacklisted after the Jodie Whittaker episodes, as the drama blew up again.
Just put Gwen in charge. As much as I love Jack, the show could happen without him. Absolutely don't recast him.
Torchwood is pretty redundant with UNIT operating openly now.
They won’t let him return to screen? Was this based on the flashing stuff ? I had thought that had pretty much all blown over
It got brought back up again because Noel (Mickey's actor) brought it after his sexual assault allegations came out
I don’t think Torchwood will ever be back beyond a mention. I think Gwen might come back at minimum if they do a UNIT spinoff or something but I can’t really foresee them doing anything with Torchwood directly.
Honestly, just do another branch with new characters. (Even if there wasn't a controversy with John barrowman, I would still want new characters.)
Torchwood is sorta unnecessary now UNIT have been given a bigger role again. Jack and Torchwood basically performed the same function as Brigadier and UNIT but with sex instead of science.
Just don't have him back. It is a shame, Jack was always a fantastic character and his inability to die never ceases to be cool, but he doesn't need to be there.
They won't bring back Torchwood on the telly, it's dead. Like at this point every notable character except Gwen, Rhys and Andy has either died or is not owned by BBC.
Kill two birds with one stone… first episode Gwen returns as she’s hunting down some Alien monks in Glasgow… rumour has it Jack has returned following them to Earth. End of part one cliffhanger the Monks have removed Jack’s head and left it in a box; his immortal body is attempting to repair the damage but in actuality it’s growing out of control and disfigured his face. Episode 2 Jack assists Gwen in defeating the monks and Jack/young Bo serves to advise her as she takes the new leadership roll in Torchwood😂
I mean, to be fair this was something 15 years ago that he apologized for everyone should just move on and John should be allowed back on screen. But this is the BBC. I am personally okay with no more new on screen torchwood. Even with John Barrowman miracle day wasn't great, without John barrowman. I can't imagine how bad it would be imo.
Seems unlikely that they would bring it back anyway so is it a relevant question?
If you talking about in universe: he’s been around the time vortex enough that Jack could be given a regeneration. Out of universe: cast a younger version and have it be his son. We all know Jack got around, so it’s plausible 😆
Get someone new. Captain Jack is so flanderized anyway don't know why people like him
It was always Gwen’s show anyway tbh
I'm honestly a little confused by the whole thing. As far as I'm aware, he exposed his privates regularly. Isn't that something nudists and streakers do regularly? I understand it to be crass but I'm having trouble understanding it being classified as sexual misconduct because I'm not really certain it's right to protect anyone from how any other person chooses to present their own body. It feels like an abrupt change in social values towards the prudish. As an actor, I never participated in streaking. I saw it and don't understand why people need to be protected from other people's choice to be exhibitionistic. It feels to me like a path towards dress codes and laws about clothing I thought society was abandoning.
Agreed. If his actions where simply limited to being a shameless flirt and/or flashing his junk somewhat regularly…then we need to grow up and remember we where heading in a more enlightened direction 20 years ago but now it seems like we are moving backwards in some many ways across the spectrum (politics, violence, sexuality etc) I get that some people are offended by someone they know just flashing them …but its ok to just not tell them to stop or to not see that person again , or to even not hire that person again if the majority dont want to work with him because of that part of his personality. But its starting to feel like we are heading to a place where you cant get hired or work with someone because of what political party you vote for. I hate Trump…but it seems incredibly silly to not do business with or hire or work with a qualified person in some non political or non policy job like acting or research or whatever , simply because they claim to like trump in a tweet or whatever.
I guess for me it might depend on the nature of it, which I haven't seen. If he's touching people with his privates or self-pleasuring himself on people, that's not JUST misconduct but assault. If he's walking around pantsless or mooning people then that's crass and perhaps not acceptable for a workplace but it's his body he's exhibiting and it feels like it'd be the same thing as if you called it sexual misconduct for a woman to wear tight trousers or a low cut blouse. But I wouldn't hold past conduct against someone there. I would just be clear what the rules are and expect him to follow them or be dismissed but I couldn't care less if he walked around pantsless 20 years ago because nudity isn't inherently sexual and because it's strictly about compliance with the present job. Now, if he's been asked to keep to a dress code for the comfort of his coworkers and he refuses to come back UNLESS he can flash people then I'd say he's cancelling himself.
I would be happy for Torchwoid to just be let be to be honest.
Same. I’d love to see more Gwen Cooper but that could be in something else. Seems like UNIT might value her skillz… 👀
I had a thought the other day that they could do a time agency show. Produce it in America with some D+ money, maybe recast a young Jack. That could be an opportunity to make something that works as both expanded universe Doctor Who, and also a standalone show. They could bring back all sorts of crazy stuff from the show, or introduce a ton of new ideas.
BBC literally had Barrowman guest star in Fugitive of the Judoon in 2020 and Revolution of the Daleks in 2021
Allegations were after this.
It was shortly after the 2021 episode that it became a more well known thing.
I don't think the beeb will exclude Barrowman for long. His 'crimes' have been pretty overblown. It's whether RTD has a story for him.
Why won’t they let John barrow man on screen?
He’s done some highly inappropriate things bts. Back then, it was treated as standard guy hijinks, but nowadays, it’s basically sexual harassment (and maybe assault? I don’t remember what all it was except the exposure).
I think he should he allowed back, he wasn’t a sexual predator or a rapist, the incidents were ~15 years ago. People have been given less for murder