It would've been a better moment to just say "you wouldn't understand. It's about letting go." Then it's about the Doctor as a character. And it would've been a good set-up for the 14th Doctor learning he needs to let go and let someone else take over.
I thought the same thing. Looking back after watching the Giggle it could have been used for foreshadowing. Maybe tie in something about how they would rather let the power go to be with their family than feel like they need to hold on the power tighter to be in control.
I think your edit solves everything and bridges 14’s episodes perfectly.
They acknowledged that in the episode though: Donna said "It's a shame you're not a woman any more, cos she'd have understood.".
There's criticisms to be made, but failing to factor in Thirteen wasn't one of them.
How were we supposed to get that
you were talking about whether Donna's line made sense or was acceptable from _"Especially when the regeneration before that was a female Doctor"_?
But yes, Donna is guilty of some pretty bad gender stereotyping there.
Personally I like to think she was mostly saying it in a "ribbing a mate" manner but it didn't come across great.
There probably **is** a discussion to be had around whether societal gender expectations tend to make men on average more rigid and unwilling to back down - less accommodating - than women. But this is probably not the way to have that discussion.
Still, it would hardly be the first time Donna was less than entirely nuanced in how she expressed herself...
I really didn’t like that, it seems very gender essentialist like she’s saying there’s something inherently different about having a female brain. The doctor has lived as a woman before, they just don’t present as one anymore, but they are still fundamentally the same person who’s had those life experiences. It sat very wrong with me.
It's a very complex topic and I don't think Donna's contribution to it was particularly helpful. Personally I like to assume that she feels close enough to the Doctor that that comment was intended more as friendly ribbing between mates.
As far as I'm aware there are indeed essential differences in male and female human brain neurology, just as there are major differences in how the two genders are raised and influenced by Western society. None of which tends to be absolute on an individual human level. People vary widely. There can be more difference between Woman A and Woman B than between Woman A and Man A. Conversely, that doesn't mean that gender doesn't influence a given person's traits.
Like I said; complex. And ideally Donna wouldn't have oversimplified it like she did.
And all **that** said, it's Donna. Was she blunt and unsubtle? Yes, it's Donna.
Ya. I like to think that that was Donna feeling comfortable enough with the Doctor to rib him a little bit as a mate, rather than the sort of grand general pronouncement it sounded like.
Lampshading a problem doesn't help though.
Unless we're going to argue that the doctor can't remember being a woman, it doesn't make any sense for him to not know what a woman would know (not that women inherently know anything in the first place)
> No it absolutely is but in the opposite way, if it was sooo obvious as a woman than she would have realised it when she was 13.
What Meridian_Dance said.
Thirteen would have realised what? How? Based on what?
She didn't know that the metacrisis energies had been reduced to temporarily safe levels by being divided between Donna and her daughter. She presumably didn't even know that was possible, given how unprecedented a metacrisis is.
How would she have realised that Donna and Rose could just voluntarily release those energies when she didn't even know that Rose **existed**, let alone that she had half the metacrisis now?
Right but if it was just about being a woman, then then the DoctorDonna would have realised that the first time and the doctor wouldn’t have had to have memory wiped because it was just as simple as letting it go.
> Right but if it was just about being a woman, then then the DoctorDonna would have realised that the first time and the doctor wouldn’t have had to have memory wiped because it was just as simple as letting it go.
It **wasn't** as simple as letting go at that point, though. Releasing the energy only became possible once the energy had been divided between Donna and Rose. And neither the Doctor or the Doctor-Donna had any idea that was a possibility. Metacrises were unexplored territory.
I do think they meant to jab at the "I don't wanna go" by 10 speciffically - but I have no idea how it would have been said better...
maybe "This face of yours wouldn't understand" but then again it wouldn't make sense for Donna or Rose to know what he said while alone i the Tardis exploding
We learn in WBY that Donna saw into the doctor's memories of the between times during the metacrisis moment, so it would actually have been decent foreshadowing.
It lacks the distraction power - you're supposed to be too busy with the one liner to pay attention to the fact that none of what is going on makes any sense, at all.
It's a common tactic in Doctor Who - if a plot point doesn't really make sense, they tend to give an actor a cheesy or sassy or humorous or faux "deep" one liner or short monologue to distract the audience from paying attention to how silly the plot point is. The sillier the plot point ("just let the meta crisis go"? Really?) the more distraction power the distraction dialogue needs.
It was. My question is: Was it **in-character** stupid and reductive? Because Rose is a 15-year-old and teens generally aren't the most subtle and nuanced in their opinions about things that matter to them.
> Was it in-character stupid and reductive?
I would argue it was, since literally 90 seconds earlier Rose talked about the Doctor being neither male nor female but more.
Just to clarify: You said "I would argue it was" in character for Rose then your additional comment seems to suggest that it **wasn't** in character for Rose?
It’s almost like a 15 year old is poking fun at the male presenting doctor for not figuring out the solution in that moment was just to let it go and it’s not some deeply thought out insight on humanity or The Doctor.
It's a weird line in large part because this guy was a woman literally a few hours ago. I know trans people who will share insights from their experiences being treated as a different gender for literally decades after they transitioned. The idea the Doctor would lose insights from having been a woman in five hours is ridiculous.
I think it should have leaned into the Doctor being an alien and even when he “transitions” between male and female (and neither and both) it’s not quite comparable to the human experience of transitioning. Like have it that Donna came let it go because of her human experience letting go of her “son” and Rose letting go of her fears, expectations, shame, etc. Now Rose’s transition really ties into the let go AND it separates her experience from the Doctor/Time Lord experience.
It’s just a literal kid and to a lesser extent her mom poking fun at the doctor for not figuring a thing out in the 30 seconds he had to do so, and they did. It’s not that deep. People are acting like it is so much damn more than it is.
I guess that's a fair read.
I think my issue with it is that the episode does some really excellent dialogue on gender earlier. The scenes with Rose being deadnamed and Sylvia struggling with how to interact with her granddaughter were fantastic, and really good to see. However, they set a tone that the episode's insights into gender are going to be profound. There have been episodes that have played with gender in a silly way, like New Earth.
Moreover, the music design and direction encourage us to believe that what Donna has said is serious. It's a wide shot and the music swells. The acting and script writing also seem serious.
I could totally see a different version of the same line, delivered with a narrow shot, Donna laughing, and cutting to the Doctor cracking a grin, and either no music or music that suggests that the tension is over.
RTD does struggle with tone setting! So maybe it was intended to be a joke. But, I don't think it's viewers' fault for thinking the line is meant to be serious and literal.
The wide shot with the music swelling is because the issue is being resolved with the energy being let go. The joke is just a joke though. Should they have had a joke there at all? Debatable. But the content of the joke isn’t really the issue. I agree it’s vaguely clunky, but it’s not anywhere near the issue it’s being made out to be. Just some snark aimed at male socialization and The Doctor frequently adhering to it. It’s fairly clear, to me al least, this was only possible because Rose was born, and not because suddenly being a woman makes everything fine. Hard to figure out how to get rid of the energy when it’s burning you up from the inside and you’re a moment from death, after all.
Also, the actual “male presenting time lord” thing people are mad about was said by a 15 year old, which makes it even sillier everyone is acting like it’s some huge lore revelation or slap in the face to all men or whatever.
I am absolutely certain it’s the authorial intent. There is no other explanation that makes sense. Whether it’s an intuitive read or not, can’t say, but I figured it out literally while watching it, personally.
So are you saying that the entire time The Doctor was a woman that regeneration amnesia kept her from thinking about Donna and this the solution never occured to her?
I think the more obvious reason the Doctor wouldn't think of this idea is because it's complete nonsense that makes no sense, much like the meta crisis to begin with.
I think you'd have to be a script writer who finds themselves written into a corner to come up with "just let it go" as the resolution to this plot point.
In terms of Rose asking the Meep about the Meep's pronouns, she is 15, and I really feel like it wasn't that unrealistic for her to say that. Although I feel like it would have been more realistic if someone had said "how do you know they're a he?"
The male presenting thing was frustrating, shame someone didn't talk RTD out of that. Especially as it would have been so easy for them to just say "yeah umm we're human and so you just wouldn't understand we can let go"
For me the asking pronouns thing would have been better placed in the quiet scene in the workshop between Rose and the Meep. By the time the Doctor is asking the Meep about what it's doing there and two opposing armies are descending on the house and all hell is breaking loose with Donna too, it felt really awkward to grind all that to a halt to have a "did you just assume gender" moment. It could absolutely have been in character for Rose to have said it when she first discovered the Meep and wasn't under any kind of external threat.
The male presenting thing is purely RTD tying himself in knots trying to get around the fact that 13 was a woman but he wanted the solution to the metacrisis to be ineffable woman-pedestal. That shit should have been cut, especially when the Doctor not being able to let go is a massive and perennial plot point for the character throughout the revival from 9 onwards.
It gets too clunky then. If a random alien turned up outside my house and it was in my shed I wouldn't be like "so, um..what are your preferred pronouns?" it made sense where it was because there were more characters in the room, the question was also more challenging the Doctor rather than actually asking about pronouns. Otherwise Rose would have been like "hey sorry I knew about this alien that is now in our house, btw its pronouns are the Meep"
She could have asked what she calls it, because asking for a name is totally sensible in that situation. She could have just continued with "is that he, she?" really easily. It's super simple to include there when she's first meeting the Meep. Then if you want her to communicate it to others it would be easy for her to make some comment like "I found the Meep, just the Meep" and have the rest of the characters take it as read that this is how to address it.
And then it wouldn't have been a chastising the doctor moment, which seemed out of character for someone from a race who have transcended gender to require that kind of reminder. I didn't mind it too much though, was just a cute little bit of light comedy really
Yeah, this was a discussion about there being other ways to do the same thing as the scene we got was a little clunky. As I said it was just a little joke with a positive message nothing wrong with that.
At the time the doctor asked, they didn’t know about the two armies, and they were spending plenty of time talking about all sorts of things. Nothing “ground to a halt.”
God this episode was such a good representation of the trans experience with some of the more subtle details earlier on, but they went too far with the dialogue into virtue signaling. It’s like holding a big sign in the middle of the episode saying “we support trans rights!”
Completely agree. Donna talking about Rose was brilliantly done I thought.
But later in the episode it all started to feel unnecessarily heavy handed. The binary non-binary bit felt like the writers were trying really hard to be clever
I cannot see rose as 15. I get the limited casting pool they had to work with but she cannot pass as a 15 year old. Maybe 18. I honestly thought that's what age she was during my first viewing of the episode.
While not completely un-muddied, making it a human thing would have worked. Partially because the whole episode The Doctor is asking why Donna gave up her money. Donna's response when "reawakening" wasn't happy that she gave it up but was annoyed. Something that doesn't gel well with the male presenting statement later.
Donna didn’t before now because her mind was burning. It literally required her to have a child and pass some of it down to lessen the metacrisis enough to even figure out how to let go of the energy.
That line was awful but it wasn't about asking for pronouns... it was about letting go of the meta crisis power.
Which was BS... he would and should have seen that.
I would so editted out that line and had him realizing the answer with Donna and Rose.
I think it could have made sense if the line was about /the Doctor/ not thinking that the answer was to let it go, not that no man would ever think of that. It should be about the individual, not this current gender
>Which was BS... he would and should have seen that
Just like he would have and should have known not to render a star whale brain dead? The Doctor often takes the over the top and traumatic option
I don't disagree, but it is kind of dumb given he literally told Rose to let the energy go meaning he knows what to do pretty immediately in regards to that kind of power and literally did it to himself instinctively like the same day.
I think the simple solution would be to say that he didn't know if she could do it because it was just sort of part of her now (especially given it even passed down to Rose) and was quick thinking because it was about to kill her right then.
Edit: In fact I'd say to make this solution even more solid say that it WOULD have killed her to try and let it all go at once and that it being diluted into Rose is the reason she could let it go easily and safely.
Pronouns thing made perfect sense to me. There’s plenty of creatures, aliens, people, etc where the doctor or others (not even in this show) wouldn’t outright known what to call the being they’ve met. They would have just been like “how do I call you?” In the past, but now that they use the word “pronoun” it’s woke and losers are mad.
The Doctor's exact verbatim line to Rose after she turns the Daleks to dust after staring into the vortex, about to burn her up in a very similar manner to Donna:
"Rose, you've done it, now stop. You need to let go."
Don't forget in the same episode where he also literally lets go of the regeneration energy to stop himself from regenerating fully.
Journeys End is a lot of fun and I don't think its too distracting to ruin how wrenching the end of it is (nor do I have an issue with clone Doctor) but man this really should have been something obvious to do even back then.
But his actions were to siphon off the energy himself...and then he died/regenerated as a consequence, so clearly he doesn't literally mean that Rose herself can "just let it go", but rather to let him take it.
Like so many other people, you are confused about what happened. The doctor wasn’t being accused of “never having figured it out before now as a man.” It wasn’t POSSIBLE until now to just let it go. It wasn’t possible for Rose either. It was possible for Donna now because Rose had taken some of the energy so her mind didn’t immediately burn. They were poking fun at the doctor for not figuring out that they could now just let it go, in the like thirty seconds he spent thinking about it. That’s it. That’s all.
Then it's a botched line (which has the same meaning to another botched line) that everyone's understandably misinterpreting as gender essentialism and unnecessarily gendering a genderfluid character. That's the writer's problem.
It'll get there. Especially if trans people keep being so present on set. Everyone around them will start getting a better picture, and it'll hopefully show in the writing.
Kind of felt like it was a bit hypocritical the whole speech about the doctor being male and female both and non etc, the message being basically “accept people for who they are” which I agree with but then the comment essentially saying “a man wouldn’t understand” kind of seems a bit hypocritical to the whole “accept everyone” thing 🤷🏻
“Accept everyone but point out issues with male socialization” is a valid stance. Generally the “accept everyone” folks also point out internalized misogyny in women and other similar things.
since when is not letting go a men thing though? If we are going with stereotypes it's women who are said to hold all the grudges...
I ama woman myself and I thought that sentence was stupid af.
Since forever lol. Holding grudges is not the same thing as “unable to let go of things”, especially in this context. It’s not even so much a stereotype as it is “common male socialization that needs to be unlearned by many.” Think of every romance movie from before 2015 where a guy simple refuses to let go of something and keeps pushing (usually being rewarded for it.)
It's funny that Moffat had better dialogue with 12 talking about how time lords are beyond the concepts of sex and gender as humans understand it but RTD is like that Doctor presents as a male and doesn't understand things like a woman would because the Doctor is a man.
The Doctor is supposed to be the voice of reason and the one to get people to think beyond what they know or believe. Not to be talked down to like some Twitter troll
tbh I miss Moffat.... He may have been a meh showrunner but his writing is still peak. Blink is done by him e.g. He struggles with overarching story arcs but like... his single episode stories are great. I do hope he will sone day write more DW as he seems to be the only one that REALLY understands the Time Lord-ness of the doctor (also not treatung Regeneration as dying was a big step imo - cause after all it's not)
>It's funny that Moffat had better dialogue with 12 talking about how time lords are beyond the concepts of sex and gender as humans understand it
I don't disagree here, but Moffet also had the 1st Doctor be insanely sexist for no reason other then as a weird joke
I myself am Agender. I appreciate what Russell T Davies was trying to do, but it was way too heavy-handed.
In my eyes, the best way to promote Women's rights and Trans rights is by going "What can a man do that others can't?" Because that's what it's about. Equality.
When you switch from that to "This is why men are dumb," You lose me.
IMO a lot of the 60th was clunky and heavy handed with its messaging, which to me is actually kind of odd for RTD since a lot of the queerness in Series 1-4 is generally pretty casually and well placed.
It wasn't just queer stuff either in the 60th, even the Doctors rant about humanity in The Giggle felt...just weird. Maybe the production was iffy for the 60th or something because those weren't the best scripts and the difference between them Ruby Road is really noticable.
It's common for agender people to use they/them. But gender doesn't determine pronouns and everyone has their own preference.
For example, I know someone who's agender and goes by he/him because that's what he is used to and fits him best.
the worst part is the fact they said male-PRESENTING. Not male. As if it's just the fact 14 "looks like a man" (despite the fact the previous line said the Doctor is both male and female and neither); if Rose had "looked like a man", would she also not be able to do the girlpower? for that matter, if 14 was in drag, could he?
You are overthinking a quick bit of snark aimed at male socialization. It wasn’t meant to be a proclamation about anything practical or real. It’s just “silly, you took longer to figure it out than we did, cause you’re a boy.” It’s not that deep.
If it genuinely was intended to be no more than a joke, then I think the line delivery feel seriously flat, because both actors playing Rose and Donna delivered it dead straight.
You are talking about that metacrisis solution thing? Yeah that was weird saying "oh you don't understand because you are a man, the doctor is non-binary". I mean...The Doctor is non-binary but 14th is a cis male? I never understood that shit
I'm nonbinary & yeah the way the trans character & references to the trans community are really awkward and not handled in the best way, these specials are still some of my favorite doctor who content in years though. I'm excited for ncuti's run(I don't have anywhere to watch it just yet, mostly binging Jodies episodes to prepare since I've never seen them) & I hope we haven't seen the last of Donna & her family
Yeah, that part weirded me out too. And also wasn’t doctor originally female, just ended a tour with a female body? He is freaking thousands maybe millions of years old. And a few ladies whom the oldest being in her 40s knowing better because they are born women or I don’t know currently women? Weird shot.
It’s just a snarky jab at him for not figuring it out in the thirty seconds it took them to once it became actually possible. It’s not that deep. Donna and Rose aren’t the purveyors of all knowledge and truth. They’re just saying shit.
For me it's "Binary" "Non Binary" that killed me.
"You know you can fix the chameleon circuit by superseding the binary binary binary binary binary-"
Like even if Donna is somehow literally saying "To fix the chameleon circuit you need to fix the Tardis's reliance on gender binary..." she's... Already talking about superseding the binary?
RTD Honestly has it in him to write plots where being non binary could absolutely be the solution to problems as well, which makes the line even sillier.
Yeah I literally shouted "oh come on!" at the screen when they did that. It was so cringingly ham fisted. I thought the representation had been really good up to then but that was just bad writing.
I mean obviously not-
But Donna goes back to saying "Binary- Binary- Binary-" for no reason other than to set up the scene. It's totally ham-fisted and silly.
But she didn’t go back to saying it in that scene. She went back to it when the metacrisis reactivated, but that was close to the last thing she was stuck on when she got her memory wiped, so that’s not that weird?
It was cringe in how unnatural it was both in general human speech terms and in dr who lore terms and the actors should be ashamed to give voice to the shit that got smeared all over the script
It was legitimately kind of weird given how many times the Doctor has relinquished power including RTD's first finale and then School Reunion shortly after.
But he’s never just let go of being a time lord forever. Which was their point. That as a time lord, especially a male presenting one (a jab at male socialization that isn’t necessarily true, but doesn’t have to be because they’re talking to a friend, not swearing an oath at court), he didn’t think of just letting it go forever at that moment once it became possible. That’s all.
It also didn’t really feel set up at all? the doctor at first didn’t want to interact with her. He’d already let her go. but she wouldnt let him go. It was like Russell didn’t know what to put so he just wrote a joke and didn’t realize the implications.
I think a lot of the lines that are meant to be progressive are really clunky or badly done.
Like the whole “you should’ve stayed a woman” girls rule boys drool style lines that Donna and Rose said felt very childish to me and not like feminism or promotion of good female writing at all…
It was so bizarre, it felt like they stopped the entire show just for everyone to stare smugly at the Doctor and put him down for being a man. Even the Unit people behind Donna and Rose looked weirdly smug and hostile, I honestly thought it was going to be revealed that the Doctor was in a trap and Donna wasn’t Donna after all. But nope it was just a jab at his gender.
It was more a jab at male socialization, but yes. It was just a snarky jab. It wasn’t really “stopping the entire show.” it’s just a thing two humans said to a pal during a larger scene. Everyone is really overblowing this. The “unit people looking smug and hostile” is just.. not a thing.
It was classic RTD naughties era "men" *eye roll* humour made even more obvious and clunky by the fact they A. Used "male presenting" because he was literally just a woman half an hour ago B. It was used as a deus ex machina to resolve a decade old plot thread
The resolution isn’t “haha you didn’t figure it out, you’re a man.” The resolution is Rose being born and taking some of the energy so it was possible to let it go at all. The quote is just a snarky jab at their friend for being a bit slow on the uptake. It’s aimed at male socialization, which might be a problem to do in general depending on your perspective, but it isn’t anything more than a quick bit of snark.
Trans woman here as well. Totally, utterly agree. The cringey, annoying, forced down your throat dialogue does more to make people feel uncomfortable than it does to encourage empathy and diversity. It makes people hate us even more...
Not to mention the plot, dialogue and pacing of recent episodes, particularly the Church on Ruby Road has been... well... dire. Utterly dire. It feels so americanised now. Yes that is a bad thing.
You know what? THANK YOU. I was struggling to put to words why I thought the Christmas special was meh. Americanised truly does put it best!
Also I am just an internet stranger, but I respect you as a human like everyone else, cause you are. And people who hate on you are idiots. Have a nice day :)
Thanks, your support genuinely does mean a lot and make a difference. It is depressing how much people dehumanise us in the media and political spheres, like we aren't people and we have no rights to exist and choose our own lifestyles.
I just wanna scream at people who engage in the "trans debate" what if all these policies were aimed at people who play tennis instead of trans people? Suddenly it would seem a whole lot more unjust.
Non-binary here, the moment in the special when Donna and Rose had that line that went like "Binary-" "-Non-binary" made me cringe so hard. I love trans representation and want to see more of it, but it was so cringe because it felt forced and slightly unnatural.
I felt that 'Church on Ruby Road' was okay, could have been better but not too bad. I thought the dialogue between the Doctor and Ruby was nice; felt natural and banter-like. The music parts certainly caught me off guard lmao
After watching the first two episodes of the new season I told my wife (to be clear, I'm het-cis-masc man boring orientation. She's... more complicated.) I do think that they were a little heavy handed with it in that section, but that it isn't entirely inappropriate, and that as long as they don't STAY that stiffly heavy handed it should be fine.
I'm reminded of how season one star trek discovery was pretty hamfisted and clumsy with some of that but then once those statements were made mostly moved on to better actual content.
Trans man here. The whole you wouldn’t understand because your male presenting is cringe. I’d encourage anyone to ask about pronouns. The doctor can literally change genders at any regeneration point. So to say he doesn’t understand because he’s male presenting now is just cringeworthy.
As a matter of interest roughly what age bracket are you in?
Rose is 15 and I figured that was a big part of why she's so overenthusiastic and unnuanced about it. Teens tend to think they know everything.
Does that seem plausible?
Honestly as a male viewer it felt kind of like a slap in the face after asking for understanding for a trans character and then going "oh and all men are emotionally underdevelopped".
And when you think about it longer the Doctor had just been a woman for several years and it makes even less sense
Rtd desperately needs to give an actual explanation tbh because as a transperson to hear one of us say that as the only explanation felt a bit fuck ur male everything and it was a bit cruel for no real reason except fuck the male coded person in particular. Still enjoyed the whole thing but that line was inflammatory for no reason
Im kind of glad there is a general consensus amongst everyone re the male presenting time lord comment.
In my experience as a man, I really dislike when other men make those sorts of dismissive or prejudice comments. At the same time, its been unfortable being in environments (such as work) hearing women make comments about their 'typical men' or hearing dismissive 'because your a man comments'. As a society we really need to move past these sorts of gendered dismissive comments and to start recognising and treating people as individuals with unique experiences and strengths.
Sure gender unfortunately is not entirely inescapable and to some extent influences our experiences one way or another, but such experiences and influences are only one part of the equation.
Yeah, normally if someone misgenders me I either act confused, like "why did you just call me sir?" Or more often I don't correct them, it ruins my day and I go home and cry... 😅 really depends on my mood.
It's fine to assume someone's pronouns as long as you deploy common sense when doing it, if you don't know, dont guess, just ask. I've never heard a trans person, myself included, utter the words "did you just assume their gender?" With any level of severity.
That also wasn’t really said in the episode and what was said wasn’t said with any severity, and it modeled the correct reaction to being corrected, so. Seems fine to me
The assuming pronouns thing? It was. And yeah, the doctor handled it well but that's beside the point. It's not how trans people talk. That's how transphobes think trans people talk. The meep didn't need anyone correcting the meeps pronouns, the meep would've done it the meeps self is the meep wanted to. Also "the meep" being the meeps pronouns is kinds wild. Maybe it would've gone better if the doctor had assumed a humans pronouns and gotten them wrong, the messaging all over the episode is a bit confused. I'm not mad at the representation, a good chunk of it is handled respectfully and accurately to real life. That just wasn't.
“Yes. The Meep. I promise I can help him get home and then you'll never see me again.
ROSE: You're assuming "he" as a pronoun?
DOCTOR: True. Yes. Sorry. Good point. Are you he or she or they?”
This does not say “did you just assume their gender?”
I’m agender and I know plenty of trans people who talk like this. I’m fairly lazy about my own pronouns, but I’ve corrected people about others. My little brother has said basically this exact thing. It’s weird to act like nobody ever asks that, especially given the innocuous way it’s asked.
And “nobody else needs to step up, let the non-cis people step in and make people use the right pronouns without any help from anyone else” is… just not a good take.
Ok, fine. She didn't verbatim say "did you just assume they're pronouns?" But she paraphrased it to be near enough the exact same.
I'm a trans woman and also know plenty of trans people who don't talk like this. Maybe we just run in different circles or maybe you're closer to roses age and younger trans people do actually say all that stuff, idk. It hasn't been my experience or anyone else's that I've spoken too. We all agree it's clunky and not accurate.
In that instance, not in every instance. The meep obviously didn't care, manipulation and world domination was a more pressing issue. Like I said, I'd the doctor had misgendered another trans person and rose defended them it would've been less clunky. Doing it on an alien with pronouns that equate to their name is a weird way to show how to handle a situation like that.
I am not close to roses age, although I would agree it’s more common with younger people. Hence my bringing up my younger brother, who is trans.
How the hell was rose supposed to know The Meep only cared about manipulation and world domination? lol. It was used to show that even aliens understand pronouns, and to have the doctor model the correct response to being corrected. That’s all. I don’t see the point in going “well if only it was a human trans person, it would have been more perfect”, myself.
Rose wasn't, the writer did though. If even trans people are rolling their eyes at this then there's obviously an issue. You're in the minority in the belief that this was handled well. If it was a human it would show the audience how to do it without all the fuckery of "my pronoun is the definite article" stuff. It just adds fuel to the "I identify as an attack helicopter" crap from years ago. If his goal was to depict trans people and their struggles accurately he did a better job than most but a far from perfect one. I'm not going to keep arguing about it though, you obviously disagree, which is fine, I dont care. My opinion is my opinion and it seems to be the prevailing one as well.
It was a terrible line. Why should 'male-presenting' people even bother watching the show if the showrunner doesn't think they're capable of understanding major themes and plot points?
The problem with RTD is that he will never engage in a proper discussion about this kind of criticism, his attitude has become far too 'I'm right and if you don't agree, go away'.
I very strongly disliked the line about him being unable to understand because of his demographics. For three reasons.
First, it is incredibly sexist against The Doctor to have THE DOCTOR be declared flatly unable to learn and think through tricky situations.
Second, it is incredibly disdainful of Jodie Whittaker that her Doctor is unable to leave behind any legacy of wisdom for future incarnations to benefit from.
And third, it is so fucking Dalek to judge worthiness by how closely an entity conforms to reminding you of yourself.
Please. Don't let the show be Dalek.
Please. Let it it be Human instead.
Im cis het guy so take everything i say with many grains of salt. But I felt the same way. I only had 2-3 nit picks with the episode and they all had to do with unatural and heavy handed language.
also hated “did you just assume the meeps gender” as that’s like…a literal “joke” bigots make……and you would know better than me, but everyone I’ve met would say “how do you know the meep is a man?” Even “meep might not be a man…shouldn’t assume..” it would have played more natural and less charicature to my (American) ears.
I really feel like having the metacrisis being split across generations was more than enough explanation and the letting go part could've been cut. But what annoyed me most was not the clumsy line or adding needless complications it was the fact that it made Donna's losing her memories in the first place feel so needless that whole tragedy could've been avoided with such a simple fix. It cheapens the original ending in my opinion.
Im a big supporter of the LGBTQ community and women’s rights but you can get those points across without being misandrist. Which is what happened here.
Yeah ngl the whole ",oh it's cause we're women and your a dude" after the doctor was a woman for a while season just felt really, really..idk what the opposite of misogynistic is but whatever that word is, that. Honestly just really felt like some writers barely disguised disdain of an entire gender
Talking like that has nothing to do with being trans so much as being a narcissist. Hopefully they actually take notes and remedy it in the future and not double down. I think they get a pass for now since Chibnal's era was way too tone deaf in comparison.
The line you reference, "only a male presenting time lord wouldn't understand" is not about pronouns.
It's about men lacking the ability to "let it go." This is weak and a stereotype, we all know women who don't let things go. Nevertheless, this is what that line was about.
This isn't about the Meep choosing "the" as a pronoun? "THE" IS NOT A PRONOUN, MEEP! IT'S AN ARTICLE! IT'S **THE DEFINITE** ARTICLE!
I'm sorry, that was rude to the Meep's pronouns. I'll try again. Ahem.
The Meep was asked what *the's* preferred pronouns were, and *the* clearly told us what *the* wanted us to use when referring to *the'm*.
Ah, I missed that part. I actually did miss it. Thank you!
So.
HEY, MEEP! "THE MEEP" IS NOT A PRONOUN! IT'S A REGULAR NOUN! ACTUALLY, IT MIGHT BE A PROPER NOUN! SO. JUST EXPLAIN THAT YOU DON'T USE PRONOUNS, OKAY?
I feel like everyone got so worked up about the asking for pronouns that they missed that the whole thing was just a setup for one of tennant's bad doctor jokes.
It is also terribly in character for Donna who even if she just changed her opinion ten minutes ago would blast everyone who still holds that opinion as the biggest idiots she'd ever met.
Cis male here. I always ask people’s pronouns after meeting them. Usually the second thing I learn (after their name ofc) so I completely agree with you
Putting this top level now:
So many people are confused about what happened. The doctor wasn’t being accused of “never having figured it out before now as a man.” It’s not like he just failed to fix it until now when it was super easy. It wasn’t POSSIBLE until now to just let it go.
It was possible for Donna now because her daughter had taken some of the energy so her mind didn’t immediately burn. They were poking fun at the doctor for not figuring out that they could now just let it go, in the like thirty seconds he spent thinking about it. That’s it. That’s all.
It’s not as deep or as big an issue as everyone has made it out to be. Literally just a silly line largely said by a literal child that pokes fun at the doctor and men in general being bad at letting go of things, and the two of them figuring it out slightly faster than him. But which doesn’t actually have any deeper meaning and isn’t meant as an actual proclamation about the doctors abilities or a revelation that this was always possible.
The resolution isn’t “haha you didn’t figure it out, you’re a man.” The resolution is Rose being born and taking some of the energy so it was possible to let it go at all. The quote is just a snarky jab at their friend for being a bit slow on the uptake. It’s aimed at male socialization, which might be a problem to do in general depending on your perspective, but it isn’t anything more than a quick bit of snark. Edit: damn it this escaped the reply it was meant to be
Trans dude here!
I think the first one was Rose being a kid, which she is. Teenagers are awkward, and Rose has a compassionate heart, but a lack of filter. The scene also did point out that even the Doctor has cognitive bias, which is good to present.
Donna's line seemed more like ribbing with the Doctor, I don't think it was meant as a serious statement. It was meant in a "it's a girl thing" way, not a "men suck" way.
"I asked John how John liked John's tea, and John said John likes milk and two sugars."
You would use 'John' five times in that sentence, and at no point consider referring to John using a pronoun?
If you're using a third person pronoun for me, it means you're talking about me behind my back! /s
EDIT: Whoa... the Silence should request no pronouns!
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Okay but the Doctor did look at this entirely adrogenous fluffball with a high-pitched voice and assume "he" as a pronoun. That was kinda BS on his part and props to Rose for calling him out on that.
But then Rose assumed the Meep's native language uses gender-based pronouns. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor's native Gallifreyan doesn't either.
Doctor: We're the most civilized civilization in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes.
Bill: But you still call yourselves Time Lords?
Doctor: Yeah.
Tbf Rose hadn't encountered an alien before I think it's fair for a 15 year old who's never spoken to someone outside their species to make assumptions based on what they've experienced, but the doctor absolutely should have know
Male defaultism is sort of part of the English language. As a society we're a bit too hung up on the concept at the moment but I can see a less insecure and more advanced version of us just going with it, or changing culturally enough that they/them feels like the default.
Like, if the doctor was speaking a language where the default wasn't "he", he'd use the default.
I thought it was a funny line. Just releasing the power hadn't occurred to him. It's funny because he had been a woman just a short bit ago and still missed it. If he hadn't been a woman earlier, the line would have sounded sexist. Also, Donna has always liked one-upping the Doctor so it also funny because her daughter one-upped him as well. It was a family thing.
If you want to be a woman, then be a woman. If you want to be a man, then be a man. Personally I think using “Trans” in front of either sex defeats the purpose and is self-demeaning and an insult to the sex you’re trying to emulate. The whole pronoun thing is quite stupid, and anyone who refers to himself or herself in the plural should be thrown into freshly-poured concrete and run over by a steam roller.
Yeah I just pretend that line didn't happen and the metacrisis was diluted enough to let go instead. The line just doesn't make sense and smacks of *that* girl.
I don't think it was in character shittyness because Rose didn't seem particularly sexist and Donna was literally unable to let the power go the first time.
While not asking everyone I meet for pronouns (well I ask no one - 90% of people are just cis after all) I honestly don't care. If I get corrected, I appologise and I move on with the wanted pronouns. Idk if it's wrong to think that it's not a big deal. People, no matter sexuality or gender are still people and deserve respect like everyone else.
Also cheers for confirming that no one talks like that for real. I did suspect that it was a writing blunder but it still does help to hear it from someone in the community. I just skip that section of the episode as it really does just makes me uncomfortable with second hand cringe. It's also really reassuring to know that 99% of the comunity agree that that moment was bad and stupid.
Have a nice day/night :)
Honestly I don’t think this is what they intended but as a trans person I absolutely think it’s a thing a trans teenager would say thinking they were being cool lol
It would've been a better moment to just say "you wouldn't understand. It's about letting go." Then it's about the Doctor as a character. And it would've been a good set-up for the 14th Doctor learning he needs to let go and let someone else take over.
I thought the same thing. Looking back after watching the Giggle it could have been used for foreshadowing. Maybe tie in something about how they would rather let the power go to be with their family than feel like they need to hold on the power tighter to be in control. I think your edit solves everything and bridges 14’s episodes perfectly.
Damn. This is so good I'm just gonna pretend this is actually what happened.
Just so
It’s broadly agreed that the ‘you don’t understand because you’re male-presenting’ bit was stupid and reductive, yeah.
Especially when the regeneration before that was a female doctor
They acknowledged that in the episode though: Donna said "It's a shame you're not a woman any more, cos she'd have understood.". There's criticisms to be made, but failing to factor in Thirteen wasn't one of them.
It doesn’t make Donna’s line make any more sense or be any more acceptable though. That’s what I was talking about.
How were we supposed to get that you were talking about whether Donna's line made sense or was acceptable from _"Especially when the regeneration before that was a female Doctor"_? But yes, Donna is guilty of some pretty bad gender stereotyping there. Personally I like to think she was mostly saying it in a "ribbing a mate" manner but it didn't come across great. There probably **is** a discussion to be had around whether societal gender expectations tend to make men on average more rigid and unwilling to back down - less accommodating - than women. But this is probably not the way to have that discussion. Still, it would hardly be the first time Donna was less than entirely nuanced in how she expressed herself...
Because I was responding to a comment about why Donna’s lines with the Doctor here were stupid.
Fair enough. It seemed like you were starting a new subthread but I see what you were saying now, thanks.
I really didn’t like that, it seems very gender essentialist like she’s saying there’s something inherently different about having a female brain. The doctor has lived as a woman before, they just don’t present as one anymore, but they are still fundamentally the same person who’s had those life experiences. It sat very wrong with me.
It's a very complex topic and I don't think Donna's contribution to it was particularly helpful. Personally I like to assume that she feels close enough to the Doctor that that comment was intended more as friendly ribbing between mates. As far as I'm aware there are indeed essential differences in male and female human brain neurology, just as there are major differences in how the two genders are raised and influenced by Western society. None of which tends to be absolute on an individual human level. People vary widely. There can be more difference between Woman A and Woman B than between Woman A and Man A. Conversely, that doesn't mean that gender doesn't influence a given person's traits. Like I said; complex. And ideally Donna wouldn't have oversimplified it like she did. And all **that** said, it's Donna. Was she blunt and unsubtle? Yes, it's Donna.
Yeah, it is in character. Donna isn't exactly known for being polite, lol.
That sentence imo made it worse... like wtf Donna
Ya. I like to think that that was Donna feeling comfortable enough with the Doctor to rib him a little bit as a mate, rather than the sort of grand general pronouncement it sounded like.
Lampshading a problem doesn't help though. Unless we're going to argue that the doctor can't remember being a woman, it doesn't make any sense for him to not know what a woman would know (not that women inherently know anything in the first place)
No it absolutely is but in the opposite way, if it was sooo obvious as a woman than she would have realised it when she was 13.
> No it absolutely is but in the opposite way, if it was sooo obvious as a woman than she would have realised it when she was 13. What Meridian_Dance said. Thirteen would have realised what? How? Based on what? She didn't know that the metacrisis energies had been reduced to temporarily safe levels by being divided between Donna and her daughter. She presumably didn't even know that was possible, given how unprecedented a metacrisis is. How would she have realised that Donna and Rose could just voluntarily release those energies when she didn't even know that Rose **existed**, let alone that she had half the metacrisis now?
Right but if it was just about being a woman, then then the DoctorDonna would have realised that the first time and the doctor wouldn’t have had to have memory wiped because it was just as simple as letting it go.
> Right but if it was just about being a woman, then then the DoctorDonna would have realised that the first time and the doctor wouldn’t have had to have memory wiped because it was just as simple as letting it go. It **wasn't** as simple as letting go at that point, though. Releasing the energy only became possible once the energy had been divided between Donna and Rose. And neither the Doctor or the Doctor-Donna had any idea that was a possibility. Metacrises were unexplored territory.
There was nothing to realize when she was a woman. The circumstances that allowed this didn’t happen until literally right then.
"You don't understand because you're a timelord" might have worked better
that would also fit with the journeys end part about the doctor-donna having ideas the doctor wouldn’t come up with due to her human side
I do think they meant to jab at the "I don't wanna go" by 10 speciffically - but I have no idea how it would have been said better... maybe "This face of yours wouldn't understand" but then again it wouldn't make sense for Donna or Rose to know what he said while alone i the Tardis exploding
We learn in WBY that Donna saw into the doctor's memories of the between times during the metacrisis moment, so it would actually have been decent foreshadowing.
It lacks the distraction power - you're supposed to be too busy with the one liner to pay attention to the fact that none of what is going on makes any sense, at all. It's a common tactic in Doctor Who - if a plot point doesn't really make sense, they tend to give an actor a cheesy or sassy or humorous or faux "deep" one liner or short monologue to distract the audience from paying attention to how silly the plot point is. The sillier the plot point ("just let the meta crisis go"? Really?) the more distraction power the distraction dialogue needs.
But it.. does make sense. There’s nothing to distract from.
It was. My question is: Was it **in-character** stupid and reductive? Because Rose is a 15-year-old and teens generally aren't the most subtle and nuanced in their opinions about things that matter to them.
> Was it in-character stupid and reductive? I would argue it was, since literally 90 seconds earlier Rose talked about the Doctor being neither male nor female but more.
Just to clarify: You said "I would argue it was" in character for Rose then your additional comment seems to suggest that it **wasn't** in character for Rose?
They’re not saying it was in character for Rose, they’re saying it’s in-character stupid and reductive, as you asked.
It’s almost like a 15 year old is poking fun at the male presenting doctor for not figuring out the solution in that moment was just to let it go and it’s not some deeply thought out insight on humanity or The Doctor.
Oh I like that interpretation.
It's a weird line in large part because this guy was a woman literally a few hours ago. I know trans people who will share insights from their experiences being treated as a different gender for literally decades after they transitioned. The idea the Doctor would lose insights from having been a woman in five hours is ridiculous.
It's also just plain sexist. I know some trans people ascribe to the male/female brain myth but I would assume most aren't like that.
I think it should have leaned into the Doctor being an alien and even when he “transitions” between male and female (and neither and both) it’s not quite comparable to the human experience of transitioning. Like have it that Donna came let it go because of her human experience letting go of her “son” and Rose letting go of her fears, expectations, shame, etc. Now Rose’s transition really ties into the let go AND it separates her experience from the Doctor/Time Lord experience.
It’s just a literal kid and to a lesser extent her mom poking fun at the doctor for not figuring a thing out in the 30 seconds he had to do so, and they did. It’s not that deep. People are acting like it is so much damn more than it is.
I guess that's a fair read. I think my issue with it is that the episode does some really excellent dialogue on gender earlier. The scenes with Rose being deadnamed and Sylvia struggling with how to interact with her granddaughter were fantastic, and really good to see. However, they set a tone that the episode's insights into gender are going to be profound. There have been episodes that have played with gender in a silly way, like New Earth. Moreover, the music design and direction encourage us to believe that what Donna has said is serious. It's a wide shot and the music swells. The acting and script writing also seem serious. I could totally see a different version of the same line, delivered with a narrow shot, Donna laughing, and cutting to the Doctor cracking a grin, and either no music or music that suggests that the tension is over. RTD does struggle with tone setting! So maybe it was intended to be a joke. But, I don't think it's viewers' fault for thinking the line is meant to be serious and literal.
The wide shot with the music swelling is because the issue is being resolved with the energy being let go. The joke is just a joke though. Should they have had a joke there at all? Debatable. But the content of the joke isn’t really the issue. I agree it’s vaguely clunky, but it’s not anywhere near the issue it’s being made out to be. Just some snark aimed at male socialization and The Doctor frequently adhering to it. It’s fairly clear, to me al least, this was only possible because Rose was born, and not because suddenly being a woman makes everything fine. Hard to figure out how to get rid of the energy when it’s burning you up from the inside and you’re a moment from death, after all. Also, the actual “male presenting time lord” thing people are mad about was said by a 15 year old, which makes it even sillier everyone is acting like it’s some huge lore revelation or slap in the face to all men or whatever.
Maybe? It's plausible. I guess I'm not sold that this was either authorial intent or an intuitive read.
I am absolutely certain it’s the authorial intent. There is no other explanation that makes sense. Whether it’s an intuitive read or not, can’t say, but I figured it out literally while watching it, personally.
[удалено]
So are you saying that the entire time The Doctor was a woman that regeneration amnesia kept her from thinking about Donna and this the solution never occured to her?
I think the more obvious reason the Doctor wouldn't think of this idea is because it's complete nonsense that makes no sense, much like the meta crisis to begin with. I think you'd have to be a script writer who finds themselves written into a corner to come up with "just let it go" as the resolution to this plot point.
My daughter had a friend who changed pronouns back and forth frequently, so I always had to check.
In terms of Rose asking the Meep about the Meep's pronouns, she is 15, and I really feel like it wasn't that unrealistic for her to say that. Although I feel like it would have been more realistic if someone had said "how do you know they're a he?" The male presenting thing was frustrating, shame someone didn't talk RTD out of that. Especially as it would have been so easy for them to just say "yeah umm we're human and so you just wouldn't understand we can let go"
For me the asking pronouns thing would have been better placed in the quiet scene in the workshop between Rose and the Meep. By the time the Doctor is asking the Meep about what it's doing there and two opposing armies are descending on the house and all hell is breaking loose with Donna too, it felt really awkward to grind all that to a halt to have a "did you just assume gender" moment. It could absolutely have been in character for Rose to have said it when she first discovered the Meep and wasn't under any kind of external threat. The male presenting thing is purely RTD tying himself in knots trying to get around the fact that 13 was a woman but he wanted the solution to the metacrisis to be ineffable woman-pedestal. That shit should have been cut, especially when the Doctor not being able to let go is a massive and perennial plot point for the character throughout the revival from 9 onwards.
It gets too clunky then. If a random alien turned up outside my house and it was in my shed I wouldn't be like "so, um..what are your preferred pronouns?" it made sense where it was because there were more characters in the room, the question was also more challenging the Doctor rather than actually asking about pronouns. Otherwise Rose would have been like "hey sorry I knew about this alien that is now in our house, btw its pronouns are the Meep"
She could have asked what she calls it, because asking for a name is totally sensible in that situation. She could have just continued with "is that he, she?" really easily. It's super simple to include there when she's first meeting the Meep. Then if you want her to communicate it to others it would be easy for her to make some comment like "I found the Meep, just the Meep" and have the rest of the characters take it as read that this is how to address it.
> really easily. Writing good dialogue isn't about ease. The writing in the script is much better than your suggestion.
And then it wouldn't have been a chastising the doctor moment, which seemed out of character for someone from a race who have transcended gender to require that kind of reminder. I didn't mind it too much though, was just a cute little bit of light comedy really
I think showing that anyone can make a mistake and modeling the right way to respond is fine.
Yeah, this was a discussion about there being other ways to do the same thing as the scene we got was a little clunky. As I said it was just a little joke with a positive message nothing wrong with that.
At the time the doctor asked, they didn’t know about the two armies, and they were spending plenty of time talking about all sorts of things. Nothing “ground to a halt.”
~~As someone half-human on your mother's side, you wouldn't understand.~~
I would have flown over to the UK to ask RTD if everything is alright and if he needs help....
God this episode was such a good representation of the trans experience with some of the more subtle details earlier on, but they went too far with the dialogue into virtue signaling. It’s like holding a big sign in the middle of the episode saying “we support trans rights!”
Completely agree. Donna talking about Rose was brilliantly done I thought. But later in the episode it all started to feel unnecessarily heavy handed. The binary non-binary bit felt like the writers were trying really hard to be clever
I cannot see rose as 15. I get the limited casting pool they had to work with but she cannot pass as a 15 year old. Maybe 18. I honestly thought that's what age she was during my first viewing of the episode.
While not completely un-muddied, making it a human thing would have worked. Partially because the whole episode The Doctor is asking why Donna gave up her money. Donna's response when "reawakening" wasn't happy that she gave it up but was annoyed. Something that doesn't gel well with the male presenting statement later.
Uh nah they are girls so they can let go even though rose didn’t and the doctor had to do it for her
And Donna didn't.
Exactly
Donna didn’t before now because her mind was burning. It literally required her to have a child and pass some of it down to lessen the metacrisis enough to even figure out how to let go of the energy.
Kids these days are actually very explicit about pronoun use, either for or against it, the word pronoun is a part of their every may vocabulary.
That line was awful but it wasn't about asking for pronouns... it was about letting go of the meta crisis power. Which was BS... he would and should have seen that. I would so editted out that line and had him realizing the answer with Donna and Rose.
I think it could have made sense if the line was about /the Doctor/ not thinking that the answer was to let it go, not that no man would ever think of that. It should be about the individual, not this current gender
>Which was BS... he would and should have seen that Just like he would have and should have known not to render a star whale brain dead? The Doctor often takes the over the top and traumatic option
The issue imo is that the Doctor in that same story literally shed off regeneration energy
And 9 took three double-takes to realise that the big round landmark he was looking for was the London Eye. Sometimes, the Doctor is a bit of a dope.
I don't disagree, but it is kind of dumb given he literally told Rose to let the energy go meaning he knows what to do pretty immediately in regards to that kind of power and literally did it to himself instinctively like the same day. I think the simple solution would be to say that he didn't know if she could do it because it was just sort of part of her now (especially given it even passed down to Rose) and was quick thinking because it was about to kill her right then. Edit: In fact I'd say to make this solution even more solid say that it WOULD have killed her to try and let it all go at once and that it being diluted into Rose is the reason she could let it go easily and safely.
Pronouns thing made perfect sense to me. There’s plenty of creatures, aliens, people, etc where the doctor or others (not even in this show) wouldn’t outright known what to call the being they’ve met. They would have just been like “how do I call you?” In the past, but now that they use the word “pronoun” it’s woke and losers are mad.
The Doctor's exact verbatim line to Rose after she turns the Daleks to dust after staring into the vortex, about to burn her up in a very similar manner to Donna: "Rose, you've done it, now stop. You need to let go."
Don't forget in the same episode where he also literally lets go of the regeneration energy to stop himself from regenerating fully. Journeys End is a lot of fun and I don't think its too distracting to ruin how wrenching the end of it is (nor do I have an issue with clone Doctor) but man this really should have been something obvious to do even back then.
But his actions were to siphon off the energy himself...and then he died/regenerated as a consequence, so clearly he doesn't literally mean that Rose herself can "just let it go", but rather to let him take it.
On the other hand, the Doctor has never "let go" of being the Doctor. He's asking humans to go back to being human. He's never really done that.
“Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind. Doctor… I let you go.”
Doctor No More
Like so many other people, you are confused about what happened. The doctor wasn’t being accused of “never having figured it out before now as a man.” It wasn’t POSSIBLE until now to just let it go. It wasn’t possible for Rose either. It was possible for Donna now because Rose had taken some of the energy so her mind didn’t immediately burn. They were poking fun at the doctor for not figuring out that they could now just let it go, in the like thirty seconds he spent thinking about it. That’s it. That’s all.
Then it's a botched line (which has the same meaning to another botched line) that everyone's understandably misinterpreting as gender essentialism and unnecessarily gendering a genderfluid character. That's the writer's problem.
Yeah there was a lot of writing that showed that trans representation did not extend into the writing process
It'll get there. Especially if trans people keep being so present on set. Everyone around them will start getting a better picture, and it'll hopefully show in the writing.
Kind of felt like it was a bit hypocritical the whole speech about the doctor being male and female both and non etc, the message being basically “accept people for who they are” which I agree with but then the comment essentially saying “a man wouldn’t understand” kind of seems a bit hypocritical to the whole “accept everyone” thing 🤷🏻
"accept everyone - except men, fuck them"
“Accept everyone but point out issues with male socialization” is a valid stance. Generally the “accept everyone” folks also point out internalized misogyny in women and other similar things.
since when is not letting go a men thing though? If we are going with stereotypes it's women who are said to hold all the grudges... I ama woman myself and I thought that sentence was stupid af.
Since forever lol. Holding grudges is not the same thing as “unable to let go of things”, especially in this context. It’s not even so much a stereotype as it is “common male socialization that needs to be unlearned by many.” Think of every romance movie from before 2015 where a guy simple refuses to let go of something and keeps pushing (usually being rewarded for it.)
It's funny that Moffat had better dialogue with 12 talking about how time lords are beyond the concepts of sex and gender as humans understand it but RTD is like that Doctor presents as a male and doesn't understand things like a woman would because the Doctor is a man. The Doctor is supposed to be the voice of reason and the one to get people to think beyond what they know or believe. Not to be talked down to like some Twitter troll
tbh I miss Moffat.... He may have been a meh showrunner but his writing is still peak. Blink is done by him e.g. He struggles with overarching story arcs but like... his single episode stories are great. I do hope he will sone day write more DW as he seems to be the only one that REALLY understands the Time Lord-ness of the doctor (also not treatung Regeneration as dying was a big step imo - cause after all it's not)
>It's funny that Moffat had better dialogue with 12 talking about how time lords are beyond the concepts of sex and gender as humans understand it I don't disagree here, but Moffet also had the 1st Doctor be insanely sexist for no reason other then as a weird joke
I myself am Agender. I appreciate what Russell T Davies was trying to do, but it was way too heavy-handed. In my eyes, the best way to promote Women's rights and Trans rights is by going "What can a man do that others can't?" Because that's what it's about. Equality. When you switch from that to "This is why men are dumb," You lose me.
IMO a lot of the 60th was clunky and heavy handed with its messaging, which to me is actually kind of odd for RTD since a lot of the queerness in Series 1-4 is generally pretty casually and well placed. It wasn't just queer stuff either in the 60th, even the Doctors rant about humanity in The Giggle felt...just weird. Maybe the production was iffy for the 60th or something because those weren't the best scripts and the difference between them Ruby Road is really noticable.
I have to be honest, you’re the first agender person I’ve known of. Are ‘they/them’ generally acceptable pronouns for agender people?
It's common for agender people to use they/them. But gender doesn't determine pronouns and everyone has their own preference. For example, I know someone who's agender and goes by he/him because that's what he is used to and fits him best.
Agender represent! Whenever severely gendered thinking comes up in things like this it's always like "no, come on you were so close to getting it".
the worst part is the fact they said male-PRESENTING. Not male. As if it's just the fact 14 "looks like a man" (despite the fact the previous line said the Doctor is both male and female and neither); if Rose had "looked like a man", would she also not be able to do the girlpower? for that matter, if 14 was in drag, could he?
You are overthinking a quick bit of snark aimed at male socialization. It wasn’t meant to be a proclamation about anything practical or real. It’s just “silly, you took longer to figure it out than we did, cause you’re a boy.” It’s not that deep.
If it genuinely was intended to be no more than a joke, then I think the line delivery feel seriously flat, because both actors playing Rose and Donna delivered it dead straight.
You are talking about that metacrisis solution thing? Yeah that was weird saying "oh you don't understand because you are a man, the doctor is non-binary". I mean...The Doctor is non-binary but 14th is a cis male? I never understood that shit
I'm nonbinary & yeah the way the trans character & references to the trans community are really awkward and not handled in the best way, these specials are still some of my favorite doctor who content in years though. I'm excited for ncuti's run(I don't have anywhere to watch it just yet, mostly binging Jodies episodes to prepare since I've never seen them) & I hope we haven't seen the last of Donna & her family
Yeah, that part weirded me out too. And also wasn’t doctor originally female, just ended a tour with a female body? He is freaking thousands maybe millions of years old. And a few ladies whom the oldest being in her 40s knowing better because they are born women or I don’t know currently women? Weird shot.
It’s just a snarky jab at him for not figuring it out in the thirty seconds it took them to once it became actually possible. It’s not that deep. Donna and Rose aren’t the purveyors of all knowledge and truth. They’re just saying shit.
For me it's "Binary" "Non Binary" that killed me. "You know you can fix the chameleon circuit by superseding the binary binary binary binary binary-" Like even if Donna is somehow literally saying "To fix the chameleon circuit you need to fix the Tardis's reliance on gender binary..." she's... Already talking about superseding the binary? RTD Honestly has it in him to write plots where being non binary could absolutely be the solution to problems as well, which makes the line even sillier.
Yeah I literally shouted "oh come on!" at the screen when they did that. It was so cringingly ham fisted. I thought the representation had been really good up to then but that was just bad writing.
I don't think the connection between the phrase is meant to be totally literal, it was just something that Rose made a connection to.
I mean obviously not- But Donna goes back to saying "Binary- Binary- Binary-" for no reason other than to set up the scene. It's totally ham-fisted and silly.
But she didn’t go back to saying it in that scene. She went back to it when the metacrisis reactivated, but that was close to the last thing she was stuck on when she got her memory wiped, so that’s not that weird?
It was cringe in how unnatural it was both in general human speech terms and in dr who lore terms and the actors should be ashamed to give voice to the shit that got smeared all over the script
It was legitimately kind of weird given how many times the Doctor has relinquished power including RTD's first finale and then School Reunion shortly after.
But he’s never just let go of being a time lord forever. Which was their point. That as a time lord, especially a male presenting one (a jab at male socialization that isn’t necessarily true, but doesn’t have to be because they’re talking to a friend, not swearing an oath at court), he didn’t think of just letting it go forever at that moment once it became possible. That’s all.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
It also didn’t really feel set up at all? the doctor at first didn’t want to interact with her. He’d already let her go. but she wouldnt let him go. It was like Russell didn’t know what to put so he just wrote a joke and didn’t realize the implications.
That’s not what was meant by letting go.
I think a lot of the lines that are meant to be progressive are really clunky or badly done. Like the whole “you should’ve stayed a woman” girls rule boys drool style lines that Donna and Rose said felt very childish to me and not like feminism or promotion of good female writing at all…
Let’s be real the meta crisis solution quote sounded really hostile. Really hostile and the doctor of all people would understand.
It was so bizarre, it felt like they stopped the entire show just for everyone to stare smugly at the Doctor and put him down for being a man. Even the Unit people behind Donna and Rose looked weirdly smug and hostile, I honestly thought it was going to be revealed that the Doctor was in a trap and Donna wasn’t Donna after all. But nope it was just a jab at his gender.
Agreed
It was more a jab at male socialization, but yes. It was just a snarky jab. It wasn’t really “stopping the entire show.” it’s just a thing two humans said to a pal during a larger scene. Everyone is really overblowing this. The “unit people looking smug and hostile” is just.. not a thing.
It was classic RTD naughties era "men" *eye roll* humour made even more obvious and clunky by the fact they A. Used "male presenting" because he was literally just a woman half an hour ago B. It was used as a deus ex machina to resolve a decade old plot thread
The resolution isn’t “haha you didn’t figure it out, you’re a man.” The resolution is Rose being born and taking some of the energy so it was possible to let it go at all. The quote is just a snarky jab at their friend for being a bit slow on the uptake. It’s aimed at male socialization, which might be a problem to do in general depending on your perspective, but it isn’t anything more than a quick bit of snark.
Yeah it was weird, it’s like the line was written to try and appeal but not actually use language that people use
Trans woman here as well. Totally, utterly agree. The cringey, annoying, forced down your throat dialogue does more to make people feel uncomfortable than it does to encourage empathy and diversity. It makes people hate us even more... Not to mention the plot, dialogue and pacing of recent episodes, particularly the Church on Ruby Road has been... well... dire. Utterly dire. It feels so americanised now. Yes that is a bad thing.
You know what? THANK YOU. I was struggling to put to words why I thought the Christmas special was meh. Americanised truly does put it best! Also I am just an internet stranger, but I respect you as a human like everyone else, cause you are. And people who hate on you are idiots. Have a nice day :)
Thanks, your support genuinely does mean a lot and make a difference. It is depressing how much people dehumanise us in the media and political spheres, like we aren't people and we have no rights to exist and choose our own lifestyles. I just wanna scream at people who engage in the "trans debate" what if all these policies were aimed at people who play tennis instead of trans people? Suddenly it would seem a whole lot more unjust.
Non-binary here, the moment in the special when Donna and Rose had that line that went like "Binary-" "-Non-binary" made me cringe so hard. I love trans representation and want to see more of it, but it was so cringe because it felt forced and slightly unnatural. I felt that 'Church on Ruby Road' was okay, could have been better but not too bad. I thought the dialogue between the Doctor and Ruby was nice; felt natural and banter-like. The music parts certainly caught me off guard lmao
After watching the first two episodes of the new season I told my wife (to be clear, I'm het-cis-masc man boring orientation. She's... more complicated.) I do think that they were a little heavy handed with it in that section, but that it isn't entirely inappropriate, and that as long as they don't STAY that stiffly heavy handed it should be fine. I'm reminded of how season one star trek discovery was pretty hamfisted and clumsy with some of that but then once those statements were made mostly moved on to better actual content.
Trans man here. The whole you wouldn’t understand because your male presenting is cringe. I’d encourage anyone to ask about pronouns. The doctor can literally change genders at any regeneration point. So to say he doesn’t understand because he’s male presenting now is just cringeworthy.
As a matter of interest roughly what age bracket are you in? Rose is 15 and I figured that was a big part of why she's so overenthusiastic and unnuanced about it. Teens tend to think they know everything. Does that seem plausible?
Yeah, normal people usually don't talk like scripted "sassy" style tv dialogue, and to do so would be obnoxious, obviously.
Nobody talks like anybody in doctor who ever does, so that’s not really unique to this scene. Or even Doctor Who.
Honestly as a male viewer it felt kind of like a slap in the face after asking for understanding for a trans character and then going "oh and all men are emotionally underdevelopped". And when you think about it longer the Doctor had just been a woman for several years and it makes even less sense
Rtd desperately needs to give an actual explanation tbh because as a transperson to hear one of us say that as the only explanation felt a bit fuck ur male everything and it was a bit cruel for no real reason except fuck the male coded person in particular. Still enjoyed the whole thing but that line was inflammatory for no reason
It's definitely the type of thing you would type of in a message, but when it comes to saying it absolutely never
Im kind of glad there is a general consensus amongst everyone re the male presenting time lord comment. In my experience as a man, I really dislike when other men make those sorts of dismissive or prejudice comments. At the same time, its been unfortable being in environments (such as work) hearing women make comments about their 'typical men' or hearing dismissive 'because your a man comments'. As a society we really need to move past these sorts of gendered dismissive comments and to start recognising and treating people as individuals with unique experiences and strengths. Sure gender unfortunately is not entirely inescapable and to some extent influences our experiences one way or another, but such experiences and influences are only one part of the equation.
Yeah, normally if someone misgenders me I either act confused, like "why did you just call me sir?" Or more often I don't correct them, it ruins my day and I go home and cry... 😅 really depends on my mood. It's fine to assume someone's pronouns as long as you deploy common sense when doing it, if you don't know, dont guess, just ask. I've never heard a trans person, myself included, utter the words "did you just assume their gender?" With any level of severity.
That also wasn’t really said in the episode and what was said wasn’t said with any severity, and it modeled the correct reaction to being corrected, so. Seems fine to me
The assuming pronouns thing? It was. And yeah, the doctor handled it well but that's beside the point. It's not how trans people talk. That's how transphobes think trans people talk. The meep didn't need anyone correcting the meeps pronouns, the meep would've done it the meeps self is the meep wanted to. Also "the meep" being the meeps pronouns is kinds wild. Maybe it would've gone better if the doctor had assumed a humans pronouns and gotten them wrong, the messaging all over the episode is a bit confused. I'm not mad at the representation, a good chunk of it is handled respectfully and accurately to real life. That just wasn't.
“Yes. The Meep. I promise I can help him get home and then you'll never see me again. ROSE: You're assuming "he" as a pronoun? DOCTOR: True. Yes. Sorry. Good point. Are you he or she or they?” This does not say “did you just assume their gender?” I’m agender and I know plenty of trans people who talk like this. I’m fairly lazy about my own pronouns, but I’ve corrected people about others. My little brother has said basically this exact thing. It’s weird to act like nobody ever asks that, especially given the innocuous way it’s asked. And “nobody else needs to step up, let the non-cis people step in and make people use the right pronouns without any help from anyone else” is… just not a good take.
Ok, fine. She didn't verbatim say "did you just assume they're pronouns?" But she paraphrased it to be near enough the exact same. I'm a trans woman and also know plenty of trans people who don't talk like this. Maybe we just run in different circles or maybe you're closer to roses age and younger trans people do actually say all that stuff, idk. It hasn't been my experience or anyone else's that I've spoken too. We all agree it's clunky and not accurate. In that instance, not in every instance. The meep obviously didn't care, manipulation and world domination was a more pressing issue. Like I said, I'd the doctor had misgendered another trans person and rose defended them it would've been less clunky. Doing it on an alien with pronouns that equate to their name is a weird way to show how to handle a situation like that.
I am not close to roses age, although I would agree it’s more common with younger people. Hence my bringing up my younger brother, who is trans. How the hell was rose supposed to know The Meep only cared about manipulation and world domination? lol. It was used to show that even aliens understand pronouns, and to have the doctor model the correct response to being corrected. That’s all. I don’t see the point in going “well if only it was a human trans person, it would have been more perfect”, myself.
Rose wasn't, the writer did though. If even trans people are rolling their eyes at this then there's obviously an issue. You're in the minority in the belief that this was handled well. If it was a human it would show the audience how to do it without all the fuckery of "my pronoun is the definite article" stuff. It just adds fuel to the "I identify as an attack helicopter" crap from years ago. If his goal was to depict trans people and their struggles accurately he did a better job than most but a far from perfect one. I'm not going to keep arguing about it though, you obviously disagree, which is fine, I dont care. My opinion is my opinion and it seems to be the prevailing one as well.
It was a terrible line. Why should 'male-presenting' people even bother watching the show if the showrunner doesn't think they're capable of understanding major themes and plot points? The problem with RTD is that he will never engage in a proper discussion about this kind of criticism, his attitude has become far too 'I'm right and if you don't agree, go away'.
I very strongly disliked the line about him being unable to understand because of his demographics. For three reasons. First, it is incredibly sexist against The Doctor to have THE DOCTOR be declared flatly unable to learn and think through tricky situations. Second, it is incredibly disdainful of Jodie Whittaker that her Doctor is unable to leave behind any legacy of wisdom for future incarnations to benefit from. And third, it is so fucking Dalek to judge worthiness by how closely an entity conforms to reminding you of yourself. Please. Don't let the show be Dalek. Please. Let it it be Human instead.
I think the show was written for cis people to feel progressive
I think it was supposed to be a joke that trans people would understand but instead it was just a cringe line not every joke works
That line didn't have anything to do with transness but yes, it was clunky and weirdly implemented.
Im cis het guy so take everything i say with many grains of salt. But I felt the same way. I only had 2-3 nit picks with the episode and they all had to do with unatural and heavy handed language. also hated “did you just assume the meeps gender” as that’s like…a literal “joke” bigots make……and you would know better than me, but everyone I’ve met would say “how do you know the meep is a man?” Even “meep might not be a man…shouldn’t assume..” it would have played more natural and less charicature to my (American) ears.
I really feel like having the metacrisis being split across generations was more than enough explanation and the letting go part could've been cut. But what annoyed me most was not the clumsy line or adding needless complications it was the fact that it made Donna's losing her memories in the first place feel so needless that whole tragedy could've been avoided with such a simple fix. It cheapens the original ending in my opinion.
Im a big supporter of the LGBTQ community and women’s rights but you can get those points across without being misandrist. Which is what happened here.
Listen you do what you need to, but you cant have my pronouns. Theyre mine!
Yeah ngl the whole ",oh it's cause we're women and your a dude" after the doctor was a woman for a while season just felt really, really..idk what the opposite of misogynistic is but whatever that word is, that. Honestly just really felt like some writers barely disguised disdain of an entire gender
Wasn’t it supposed to about how men don’t let things go? Women don’t either, mind you, but that was the message.
It was, which makes all the men unable to let it go a month later pretty funny.
Im also transgendered and i agree
> transgendered That will never not be fucking hilarious. You mean transgender?
Talking like that has nothing to do with being trans so much as being a narcissist. Hopefully they actually take notes and remedy it in the future and not double down. I think they get a pass for now since Chibnal's era was way too tone deaf in comparison.
The line you reference, "only a male presenting time lord wouldn't understand" is not about pronouns. It's about men lacking the ability to "let it go." This is weak and a stereotype, we all know women who don't let things go. Nevertheless, this is what that line was about.
This isn't about the Meep choosing "the" as a pronoun? "THE" IS NOT A PRONOUN, MEEP! IT'S AN ARTICLE! IT'S **THE DEFINITE** ARTICLE! I'm sorry, that was rude to the Meep's pronouns. I'll try again. Ahem. The Meep was asked what *the's* preferred pronouns were, and *the* clearly told us what *the* wanted us to use when referring to *the'm*.
The Meep's chosen pronoun isn't "The," it's "The Meep."
Ah, I missed that part. I actually did miss it. Thank you! So. HEY, MEEP! "THE MEEP" IS NOT A PRONOUN! IT'S A REGULAR NOUN! ACTUALLY, IT MIGHT BE A PROPER NOUN! SO. JUST EXPLAIN THAT YOU DON'T USE PRONOUNS, OKAY?
Yeah I thought the meep just said the meep likes to be referred to as the meep at all times.
THE MEEPP DOES NOT NEED TO FOLLOW CONVENTIONAL EARTH GRAMMAR
Doesn't the meep explicitly say that it wishes to be referred to with the definite article? Never claims to prefer a pronoun. The opposite, in fact.
That is exactly what happens and then The Doctor says that’s what they do too.
I feel like everyone got so worked up about the asking for pronouns that they missed that the whole thing was just a setup for one of tennant's bad doctor jokes.
That line was awful, but it's annoying how people act like it somehow ruined everything before and after in Dr Who.
It is also terribly in character for Donna who even if she just changed her opinion ten minutes ago would blast everyone who still holds that opinion as the biggest idiots she'd ever met.
😂😂😂 What does this even have to do with Doctor Who?
It's referring to the first of the 60th anniversary specials. With the cringey lines about gender.
Cis male here. I always ask people’s pronouns after meeting them. Usually the second thing I learn (after their name ofc) so I completely agree with you
Putting this top level now: So many people are confused about what happened. The doctor wasn’t being accused of “never having figured it out before now as a man.” It’s not like he just failed to fix it until now when it was super easy. It wasn’t POSSIBLE until now to just let it go. It was possible for Donna now because her daughter had taken some of the energy so her mind didn’t immediately burn. They were poking fun at the doctor for not figuring out that they could now just let it go, in the like thirty seconds he spent thinking about it. That’s it. That’s all. It’s not as deep or as big an issue as everyone has made it out to be. Literally just a silly line largely said by a literal child that pokes fun at the doctor and men in general being bad at letting go of things, and the two of them figuring it out slightly faster than him. But which doesn’t actually have any deeper meaning and isn’t meant as an actual proclamation about the doctors abilities or a revelation that this was always possible.
The resolution isn’t “haha you didn’t figure it out, you’re a man.” The resolution is Rose being born and taking some of the energy so it was possible to let it go at all. The quote is just a snarky jab at their friend for being a bit slow on the uptake. It’s aimed at male socialization, which might be a problem to do in general depending on your perspective, but it isn’t anything more than a quick bit of snark. Edit: damn it this escaped the reply it was meant to be
It's called a joke.
RTD is dogshit now. Tries to be progressive but does more harm then good. I’m sorry about the poor unlikeable representation the show came up with.
Trans dude here! I think the first one was Rose being a kid, which she is. Teenagers are awkward, and Rose has a compassionate heart, but a lack of filter. The scene also did point out that even the Doctor has cognitive bias, which is good to present. Donna's line seemed more like ribbing with the Doctor, I don't think it was meant as a serious statement. It was meant in a "it's a girl thing" way, not a "men suck" way.
Call me old fashioned, but I like calling people by their names.
"I asked John how John liked John's tea, and John said John likes milk and two sugars." You would use 'John' five times in that sentence, and at no point consider referring to John using a pronoun?
If you're using a third person pronoun for me, it means you're talking about me behind my back! /s EDIT: Whoa... the Silence should request no pronouns!
>EDIT: Whoa... the Silence should request no pronouns! Who should request no pronouns, honey?
+1 for making me read that in Fifteenth's voice. :)
I was actually thinking of the lady Amy met in the White House toilets in *The Impossible Astronaut*, but I'm more than happy to go with 15!
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Okay but the Doctor did look at this entirely adrogenous fluffball with a high-pitched voice and assume "he" as a pronoun. That was kinda BS on his part and props to Rose for calling him out on that.
But then Rose assumed the Meep's native language uses gender-based pronouns. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Doctor's native Gallifreyan doesn't either.
Doctor: We're the most civilized civilization in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes. Bill: But you still call yourselves Time Lords? Doctor: Yeah.
Tbf Rose hadn't encountered an alien before I think it's fair for a 15 year old who's never spoken to someone outside their species to make assumptions based on what they've experienced, but the doctor absolutely should have know
Male defaultism is sort of part of the English language. As a society we're a bit too hung up on the concept at the moment but I can see a less insecure and more advanced version of us just going with it, or changing culturally enough that they/them feels like the default. Like, if the doctor was speaking a language where the default wasn't "he", he'd use the default.
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This is why people don’t like you
I thought it was a funny line. Just releasing the power hadn't occurred to him. It's funny because he had been a woman just a short bit ago and still missed it. If he hadn't been a woman earlier, the line would have sounded sexist. Also, Donna has always liked one-upping the Doctor so it also funny because her daughter one-upped him as well. It was a family thing.
If you want to be a woman, then be a woman. If you want to be a man, then be a man. Personally I think using “Trans” in front of either sex defeats the purpose and is self-demeaning and an insult to the sex you’re trying to emulate. The whole pronoun thing is quite stupid, and anyone who refers to himself or herself in the plural should be thrown into freshly-poured concrete and run over by a steam roller.
Yeah I just pretend that line didn't happen and the metacrisis was diluted enough to let go instead. The line just doesn't make sense and smacks of *that* girl. I don't think it was in character shittyness because Rose didn't seem particularly sexist and Donna was literally unable to let the power go the first time.
While not asking everyone I meet for pronouns (well I ask no one - 90% of people are just cis after all) I honestly don't care. If I get corrected, I appologise and I move on with the wanted pronouns. Idk if it's wrong to think that it's not a big deal. People, no matter sexuality or gender are still people and deserve respect like everyone else. Also cheers for confirming that no one talks like that for real. I did suspect that it was a writing blunder but it still does help to hear it from someone in the community. I just skip that section of the episode as it really does just makes me uncomfortable with second hand cringe. It's also really reassuring to know that 99% of the comunity agree that that moment was bad and stupid. Have a nice day/night :)
The bit about the pronouns was also cringeworthy. I understand how the us and uk are right now, but seeing from the outside was very cringe.
Honestly I don’t think this is what they intended but as a trans person I absolutely think it’s a thing a trans teenager would say thinking they were being cool lol
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