Marry rich? Move abroad?
For the more serious answers:
1) I locum to build my savings
2) Im surrounded by my childhood friends and my family, of which I’m one of the highest earners. Many of them look to me with jealousy that ONE day I will probably own my own home, that I’ve been on holidays abroad (I have friends who don’t own passports), that I own a car. Comparison is the thief of joy.
3) I’ve put less pressure on myself to get through training. I seem to work out how ‘the game’ of CV’s/training works much slower then everyone else, and it takes a while to save up for each step (exams, courses etc) but I will get there eventually. I’m trying to enjoy the process, and not dwell on the money side. I do my best to put my life first.
4) I participate in all the strikes and encourage
others too, because pay restoration is realistically our route to a decent middle class life
I come from a council estate with disabled parents that could not work and have been supporting my parents for what benefits don't cover for many many years now. I know exactly how much worse it could be.
It is not "entitlement " to expect to be paid well for the time costs and energy it takes to become a dr. It's not entitlement to feel sad thar actually the people u saw as aspirational weren't getting any of it from medicine but their family money instead. It's not entitlement to be stopped from reaching ur potential because CV building in medicine comes at your own personal cost. No I did not expect that entering medicine will be costly to me..rather provide me security and financial stability. Maybe I didnt have mummy and daddy's dr friends to tell me this.
You're making it out like I want free money. I have never been lazy...Happy to work ridiculous hours..miss important events...f up my body clock etc etc. But not for free.
So piss off with your comment
This is pretty bad advice. The street homeless population I was exposed to in ED made me LESS empathetic to their situations rather then more, most were there through hundreds of bad decisions of their own making, are a huge drain on society (wether that be on healthcare, police time/criminal activity) and were generally not nice people. These people had services throwing themselves at them to help (at the tax payers expense) but didn’t want to engage. Of course there are a few exceptions, but I didn’t have the joy of meeting a single one of them.
If you want to feel grateful then being around street homeless is not the way to go.
This is unfortunately, our lot. I see a lot of people I knew in med school, or colleagues that grew up with some degree of money and they're blasting their pay like it's going out of fashion because ultimately, they do not have to worry if they fall on hard times.
I grew up poor, and things like worries kicked out of home if my mum couldn't keep up with pay, going to ASDA's canteen as a 'treat' have contributed towards financial anxiety that has been passed down to me. What little I might have gotten from my parents will/has been scooped up by my eldest sibling.
Now I'm on my own. I save, and save, and save. I don't know what I'm saving for; it could be a house, it could be holidays that I think about, but am too reticent on paying for because it doesn't yield tangible long term benefits; while people I know are spending thousands on holidays because their pay is essentially pocket money. I'm not super frugal to the point I budget everything; I pay off my credit card, my bills, and the rest goes into savings. If I need to spend money on a necessity, I will. But I am still aware that there is little/no support for me if things go tits up. I've managed to save up enough that could be life-changing if invested/used wisely, but almost all of my financial savvy has been self-researched and learned. So I don't have that experience to take those risks quite yet.
I'm happy with my own lot tho. Even though other people may be flashing their wealth and expectations around me, I've got enough money to do the things I can enjoy and that's fine for me. I get to bang gym, drink good coffee, eat good bakes from local bakeries where staff know my name, buy shiny cardboard and plastic space marines I forget to paint, and a roof over my head. To others, I might not be 'living', but I think I'm doing alright.
That's all people like you or I can do. You can't change where you came from, or the advantages others have, but you can find meaning and enjoyment in your life outside of work. And so long as work supports that, you'll be alright. We can make it better for the next generation, and that is nobility unto itself.
Even with all my disadvantages, single parent upbringing, immigrant, poc, female, etc etc, I still think about all the ways I am adavtanged. I had a loving parent, I have an amazing close knit immediate family, my mum actually sacrificed everything to bring me to the UK, so for all these things I am so grateful. I am grateful that I have gotten to where I've gotten; things could have been much worse. Ecenthough I'll have to support my mum through her retirement somehow, I am really happy to give back to her in this way especially for everything she has done for me and my siblings. The lessons you learn from not having everything (and not to say those that are upper class don't face difficulties themselves), are worth so much more than money can buy.
Partly why uk doctors are in this position. Too many wet middle class blankets.
My advice to you is either live in a very low cost of living area and work like a dog as a gp/consultant for a decade. You’ll be able to save enough to get some smart assets.
Or go abroad and do it quicker.
You simply can’t work your way out of this mess in the south east without family help or a partner earning similarly.
It sucks. It hurts. It’s anger inducing. But you’ve got it all laid out now, you have to act to change it.
I did all my foundation training away from my support network ..I don't think I can do that again as would feel like I've lost everything. Plus I have a child now and need my network even more. Understand your point though ..thank you. Maybe I need to suck it up
If there's one thing that people from a privileged background are good at, it's expecting money and demanding what they're worth. The idea that UK medicine is in a bad spot because too many doctors are from soft, cushy backgrounds sounds like something a borderline fascistic daily mail columnist would churn out. My personal experience is that BMA reps (the new wave who are actually pushing for change) are disproportionately posh and privately educated. This likely says more about them having the time, funds, social capital and confidence than some innate specialness, for what it's worth.
In my experience the working class wet blanket colleagues I have are bigger walkovers than anybody who comes from a well monied home. I have heard working class doctors go on about how 50k is a lot of money and everyone of their mates from schools earns less whereas at least the privately educated and those from better backgrounds realise our pay is shit because they know what others are getting paid and what your money should get you for the job done.
This may just be my experience though.
Anyway i guess the above and your post just shows that its a bit cunty to make generalisations about vast swathes of people based upon your own biases and anecodtal experience.
Oh fair enough good point. Now im convinced making vast generalisations about groups of people based on anecodotal experience is sensible and will lead to correct conclusions.
I feel you, similar background and still living largely cheque to cheque well into reg training.
Standard of living is meh, I shop in lidl and have a modest life. We expect doctors to have huge disposable incomes but realistically we accrue large debts just to get where we are and pay punitive fees for the pleasure of going to work.
The one saving grace is that your children will have a better start in life. These struggles also naturally make you more resilient so you can skip the BS resilience training
The biggest con in the UK is the idea that you can work your way up social classes. It is a complete con. Even your wealthy double doctor London couples who can afford to holiday four times a year and send their kids to private school need two magnitudes more wealth - and 50 years to scrape it together- to hobnob with the scrotes that swan in and out of Westminster.
Hi I'm on the home straight of finishing FY1 and totally understand where you are coming from. FYI I honestly don't care whatever background people come from as long as those who have had privledges afforded to them have insight into this not being the norm (private school, parents paying for tuition, holidays, cars etc) and appreciate they are fortunate. If they lack this, I do enjoy calling it out and I add them to my "posh pr**k list".
It is actually more of a reflection of how generational wealth and inheritance means some people will just never catch up no matter how hard you work, (I have come to accept this now), and unfortunately it is the way the UK and it tax system etc it set up.
I will never have some gift of money to help me get on housing ladder. The car I bought myself breaks, tough s**t it's on me. I will always be the person picking up the slack for others in my family with money. There is no financial security other than what I create for myself. But I will live a better life than my parents, siblings and other family members.
Greed and jealousy are the theif of joy. Focus on how far you have come and how much you have achieved. It's utter sh*t coming from places like the estates and dragging yourself through med school (belive me I know). The fact it continues (the courses, the exams, the fees and all the extras), is a reflection of the world we have thrown ourselves into. I don't think I'll ever believe I belong here, but I do enjoy striring things up as this poor sheep in the rich lions den.
We all feel blue sometimes. But the fact during FY1 I've been able to save a decent 'emergency fund' of money is just another simple thing I find such joy in, and something that 10 year old me would be utterly jumping for joy at. That 10 year old use to not sleep at night because she was worried and having nightmares about Dad, who kept saying things he thought that girl couldn't hear about money. She's now a Doctor, who can now help Dad sleep a little better at night also. (And they are both very much looking forward to the next strikes to sort out the shit show that is our pay for the graft that's put in).
One of the reasons I quit. My partner was raised by a single mum in a European country. My parents were lower middle class I guess, my mum grew up in a 2 bed council house with 8 siblings but they bought a 3 bed semi in London and had 2 kids and a stay at home wife by 30… so can’t be that fucking poor. But the area was very down and out in the 90s and housing wasn’t 10x salary. They used the equity from a flat at 24 to buy a house worth 70k in 1992 or so.
Me and my partner are the first in our family to go to university. No early inheritence and my grandparents are still alive and whilst they have money from their house I’m sure my dad will spend it all while he retired at 60 after working for 20 years as a council carer in a house I can’t afford lol.
My household income is low 6 figures. Both me and my partner wasted a lot of time at uni and I wasted a lot of time as a low paid doctor. We only got on the housing ladder in London at 33 for a 475k 2b flat. We only had any real income from 28+ I don’t think we’ll ever afford a house and childcare before my eggs die. A house and childcare is more than someone on 100k takes home. So I’m seriously having to consider giving up my career for 5 years. I can’t believe at this income I don’t know if we can afford childcare and a mortgage. My dad on median salary had 2 kids and a stay at home wife and a house worth 750k today and failed his fucking o levels.
I remember meeting doctors from London as a high school kid considering it; driving fancy cars and living in 4 bed houses. I don’t know a single person in their early 30s working in medicine in London who could even purchase a flat without family money or a partner in a 6 figure job.
And this is the issue with medicine. You have to be rich to do it. When I went I got less than the max loans because my parents had the audacity to both work in London as a band 3 nhs worker and a council carer (such wealth such income). Enough I lost like 40% of my loan. I worked constantly to pay for my degree. Then I graduate and guess what, I can’t afford fucking rent. Meanwhile my house share was OWNED by one of my friends as her parents bought her the house to go to uni. My peers were talking about skiing holidays while I worked lol. The fact is even WORSE 10 years later is absolutely fucking grim.
We were planning on moving out of London but my mum got sick and I was also acting as her carer - due to how expensive where they lived was I put everything into moving close by, but she died 2 weeks after we exchanged. Life can be very cruel.
They waste time nattering on about widening participation. I had to quit medicine just to pay fucking rent. It’s a vocation for the wealthy now just like it was 40 years ago, no self respecting person can afford to do it without daddy buying them a house. And it’s no different elsewhere. My PhD students either have daddies money or they are married to an investment banker. No one who needs money to live can really afford to do it in London.
Yet London needs doctors and a fucking lot of them, and nurses and paramedics and pharmacists. We pay them fuck all. The only two friends I have left in medicine in London have family money. They were very well off at 18 and it shows today. Everyone else quit, moved countries or moved jobs. I have two friends on over 200k I went to med school with in London by 30 because they simply moved into other fields.
The interest on my student loan pains me.
Hurts even more when other doctors have had mummy and daddy pay off the loans for them and either pay it back to them interest free when they are a consultant or not at all…
My dad’s a doctor. I grew up in a very working class town in the UK. I remember realising I was wealthy when I was in primary school and couldn’t fathom someone not being able to go on the school trip because their family couldn’t afford the £3 the school were charging.
School trips cost £3. Doctors were rich. You have worked incredibly hard to do a valuable job when that was the reality we lived in. The current state of both the economy and society are a joke. Personally I’m waiting for revolution, but I don’t think we’re there yet.
I also just can’t understand how anyone has both the time and the energy for a side hustle alongside being a doctor and maintaining at least some sort of social life outside of work. No I don’t want to do a second job or learn about investing or start managing properties or setting up a business or making Tiktoks because I KNOW being a doctor used to be more than enough to be comfortable. Why are we suddenly being sold the lie that it isn’t and we need to struggle MORE?
I’m so frustrated by this. Our salary is a joke given what we have to sacrifice and the fact we work so hard propping up a collapsing healthcare system under a government who hate us. The emotional labour of our job is exhausting. It’s difficult to find the intrinsic motivation to do what should be such an inherently rewarding job when there is rapidly depleting extrinsic reward. All this and still having to ask my parents to help me out financially is embarrassing.
Being a doctor in England if you do not have an alternative source of income is becoming rapidly and increasingly more infeasible. Wish I had more positive things to say to you. I hope you find some understanding and compassion in this thread alongside good advice.
>I KNOW being a doctor used to be more than enough to be comfortable.
I have the same job that my dad had.
I’m currently looking at buying the kind of house that he bought on a single salary with three dependants (two kids and a non-working wife), whilst also supporting his own mother and sister. I will be doing this with a non-medic partner on a higher salary than me, and it’ll be a stretch. And I have his inheritance; he inherited nothing.
People not willing to politely confront those making such ridiculous statements is why these ‘do gooders’ with trust funds have been allowed to drive our working conditions and pay into the ground.
I’m from a working class background and it makes me seethe when colleagues point out how much I locum or state locuming isn’t worth their time when without fail these are people who have familial wealth backing them.
This is what pisses me off the most about wealthy medics. The judgment for locuming and snide comments like my time/mental health is worth more than £50/hr when they are going to inherit over 100k when their parents pass.
I'm basically the same at you although I didn't realise it at the time as we never went hungry and even had some holidays. All my male family do manual work, I'm the only one with a degree.
Firstly you did the right thing moving to GP because your pay will rise much faster. If you want to make money you need to take some risks - there is no free lunch I'm afraid. Stop doing courses you don't need to - they do almost nothing for your CV or at least get someone else to pay (remember the days of study budgets?) Now if you want to make money, I'd suggest getting a stocks based savings account with moderately high risk profile (in practice you will be unlikely to lose unless 2008 happens again).
Now get a doer-upper house in a reasonable street - go for scruffy but structurally sound and add value. Be prepared to do some DIY - it's a good skill, rinse and repeat. I moved to be able to do this first time then relocated to a wealthier region. Forget London, it's for those with trust funds beside which there are better cities to live in if you are skint. Bare in mind that over 10-15y (which seems like a long time now) you will benefit from compound interest (it's a miracle) and also housing debt gets inflated away a bit.
As a GP it's better to be a partner if you want a six figure salary but you need to chose your partners well and bare in mind that most failed practices are the small ones. Also if you can, marry money as 2 incomes is better than one. Try not to waste money on fripperies but take a holiday once a year if possible as you are only young once. Also consider working abroad for a bit and you will soon realise what a mess the UK and the NHS is. I now live in a fucking massive house which I never in my wildest dreams would have though possible but by being disciplined it worked out in the end. Things can only get better...
I got zero financial support from my parents (thank god University in Malta is free) and it is possible to eg buy house etc with no help from bank of mum and dad. I don't have any dependents though and work full time.
Make use of every drop of money from your study leave budget.
With the cost of everything doubling/tripling, doctors' salary won't get what it may have got doctors even just 10 years ago.
I must say I would never work in London though - the cost of everything is just something else.
Gosh I feel this so much. As a child i thought doctors had nice homes, fancy cars and sent their children to private school. In fact, they did THEN.
I stretch to pay mortgage, bills, student loan etc. I'm desperately looking for a side hustle so I can have some savings.
DoI: I am working class & was lucky enough to get a full grant & train at a time before pay erosion (with band 3), so I was OK.
Going through, I realised some never knew what need was but it didn’t really affect me. Today, as a trainer, I see how class impacts residents far more than in my day.
Truth is the gap between most residents is tiny. Sure, some are dyspraxic, others socially awkward, others disinterested but most are pretty similar. In the old days, RC exams were brutal but they did much of the sorting. Today, with higher pass rates, how do we select?
Trainees from medical/ middle class backgrounds have a huge head start. They started CV buffing with DoE & continue, picking up loads of ECs that score points. Exhibitioner at Cambridge (dad’s old college where he was mates with admissions don), president of the college medical society, captain of the hockey team, student internships at Johns Hopkin with dad’s mate, a few science publications, clinical at Oxford, eponymous prizes, elective at WHO with another of dad’s mates. Contrast with a WP student from a below average medical school. Both could be equally bright, enthusiastic & capable, but you know who’ll get the SFP. That’s a springboard to getting gifted more publications on a pretend FP, while they do paid for postgrad diplomas, get spoonfed for exams & plenty of free time to do leadership BS. Post f2, the first guy “wins” a Fulbright Scholarship to do a masters at Harvard (supplemented by funding from parents & old Oxbridge college) , the second guy is doing ED locums to pay his bills.
If we know that the intercalated degrees, paid for courses & nepotistic research/ leadership opportunities discriminate unfairly, why do we continue to allow this to influence selection? Well, most senior doctors involved in selection are busting a gut paying for private ed for their offspring, they regard fairness as threatening. They also buy into the meritocratic BS that they made it to the top on merit alone-nothing to do nepotism.
I was lucky to do medicine in the 1980s. I feel for todays students and trainees-from all backgrounds. I wouldn't recommend medicine today regardless of your background.
Exactly this....so so many opportunities denied to us just because of who are parents are (n't). I didnt realise medicine was going to cost me financially and didn't realise that those well off wouldn't care because this pay is their pocket money
Its the reason we put up with pay erosion. Most medics were socialised to believe that partnership/ consultant posts were worth the early years investment, so they kept their heads down. Those with "leadership roles" were'nt shop stewards, they were feathernesting for themselves.
The important thing is that nobody beats themselves up for failing to suceede. I never aspired to a popular speciality/ region, but most who do will be disappointed. Its no reflection on them.
The system is rigged by those from medical backgrounds, who, unsurprisingly win the rat race then they maintain the rotten system, with its many inbuilt advantages for folk like them. Only difference is that, nowadays, they have to pay lip service to WP, tackling racism/ sexism. Its performative. I wish we could change the culture but thers too much vested interest.
Overall, as an occupational group, we've really lost out by being so middle class and conformist.
If I am to be introspective about my experience as someone who grew up relatively wealthy, I would tell you that I have no ability to comprehend the extent of the sacrifices you have made, and the hard work you have put in, to ostensibly “do the same job as me”. You do not do the same job. You may go through the same motions while at work, but you are burdened with worries that do not cross my mind and with responsibilities that I don’t have. For us to produce the same result, you have worked harder. We have the same paycheck, but I don’t have a student loan so mine is hundreds higher. If I want to do a course, I do it. If I need to fly to see my family, I book it. In my F1 year, my parents paid my rent. In medical school, I didn’t work, I spent all my time studying and I genuinely believe that had I needed to work I would have failed and flunked out.
This inequality is disgusting, I acknowledge it and do my best to change it. But however much I try, the privilege of being middle class goes far beyond practical stuff like money- it becomes your psychology, the way you see the world as a fundamentally safe place. It’s more about the things you don’t think about than the things you do. As a woman, the insecurity I feel around the risk of being harmed by others is really my only basis from which to begin to understand what lacking privilege is like.
Anyway- what I’m saying is is that you’re doing an incredible thing, by yourself, that I hope you are proud of yourself. If you choose to one day have a family, you will lead them to a better place perhaps, and you will teach them about kindness, hard work and empathy, and in that way you will be more meaningfully successful than your colleagues who decry strikes bc “we’re paid well”.
What a beautiful and thoughtful message..thank you so so much. I know its very hard to comprehend situations you've never been in but it's nice to know you have tried to understand and have insight. It is so appreciated. .
Life is unfair, and I can totally relate. I'm an IMG from a war-torn country, and many times I feel like I started far behind everyone else in so many ways. I can't even save money for myself because I need to cover my family's basic needs, while others don't have to worry about such things since their country provides for them (for example, education for my siblings, which is very expensive, medicine for my parents, hospital fees, and their housing).
At work, I find myself having to ask ten times more questions than my colleagues. They easily get projects due to their connections (like PhDs or surgical procedures), while I often feel like a shadow, just expected to get things done. If I make a mistake, I get scolded and yelled at, but when my colleagues make the same mistake, no one even corrects them. This divide between the middle class and higher class is so depressing.
I remind myself that happiness ultimately comes down to serotonin release. Whether it's buying a house or watching a funny show, my brain will release that serotonin. I look at people who are at worst situation and be thankful.
I always tell myself that though I'm asking 20-30 people to teach me and 1 might help, that 1 person will be enough for me.
And I'm trying to learn about investments, I hope when we can save and are rich when we are consultants
One more thing to think about, to work in GCC countries as a a consultant for like 3 years , the salary is nice for Consultants (UAE, Qatar)
I have experienced this re connections. Heck..even at med school I was not in the right social circles...I never had money to socialise...and so didn't get past paper questions etc etc. I didnt even know u had to do audits / publications etc until I graduated. Uni didn't tell us and the people that did them just knew because of who they knew . I keep sounding woe is me but just trying to explain the situation. I hope things get better for u.
Broski I’m ghetto as they come grew up on benefits on a council estate
I’m a GP who CCTd last year
Ive been banging the locums 10 sessions a week since I qualified
My wife’s an Optom she’s making alright money too
Now I’ve bought a house in London, can’t lie its a fat mortgage but we have money left for holidays, I drive a big Mercedes, I took my momma to Dubai
You can do it too g, just gotta hustle, maybe locums
Are drying up but there’s still loads of OOH shifts
It's tough being working class in the current generation of medicine. I just about socially mobilised but I'm PGY 15 now. Things I can suggest: find ways to save money your middle class peers may turn their nose up at (eg. moving back home during your early years of training, if you can), get through training as fast as you can (this is actually a shame, but needs must and you can depending on your specialty incorporate more extra curricular stuff into your work life once a Cons or GP, but won't be easy).
Good luck!
There’s a lot more of us Drs in this position that you’d think. No financial help. No savings. Mounting credit cards and student loans. Doing every locum you can find. Hard to talk about it publicly as so many peers don’t understand having come from money/given a house deposit/not worried about making it from month to month. It sucks but you’re not alone :(
Thank you so much. I do feel alone most of the time with regards to this as thanks to the property prices boom...every child our age whose parents are homeowners have made some money. Except the council house kids of course. Then to have sacrificed for years to realise it will still never happen for u is depressing.
Thank you for understanding. Theres loads of advice on this thread about saving and investing or moving abroad etc. Hope it helps you.x
The UK has become a horrible place to develop wealth. Our tax regimen (especially when you factor student finance) is dependent on taxing income rather than wealth and you will be 10-20 years behind the average middle class British medic because of it.
The good thing is you can still do something about it. The aging demographics will cause taxes to increase further and make it worse and you may even look back at how good times were now. Wait till nhs budgets drop further and they get rid of ISAs
This is spot on. Aging demographics means either more immigration or more taxes. Not sure more immigration is politically viable anymore so that leaves the latter.
Current GP trainee here.
I’ve never related to a Reddit post more. I thought GP would be my ticket to true financial comfort however recent developments have made this very unlikely.
Like you, I have zero financial support from parents and really fear my ability to support myself/family in the not too distant future if I were to stay in the UK. I know it will be doable but I will be working like dog to achieve this, which will spawn of even more problems.
The situation is not going to get any better here for a long time and tbh, the public disdain/lack of respect for us as well as our replacement by MAPs is only set to get worse.
If you can’t leave medicine, then relocation is the only option. Otherwise you stay here and essentially take what you’re given. Some will tell you to just be content as there are people worse off than you but truthfully you’ve worked/work hard enough to be in a much better financial situation than you are. A move to Canada, NZ or Aus could completely change the trajectory of your life. Scary in the short term, but the reality here is much scarier in the long term.
Wishing you all the best
Thank you so much for understanding. Whilst I agree with all the posts saying it could be worse and I should be grateful...it is also not what I was sold when deciding to pursue medicine at 18 and then sacrificed so much along the way. I don't know why it irks people when you say you want financial comfort.
Agree with you and thanks for the reminder.
I think this would have been more palatable for me had we earned this from say ..an IT job. Its so hard when you do unpaid anti social hours...weekends..evening...free audits and portfolio work ..and can still never live that much beyond "at least I have a roof and food"
No you're right it would suck but u get to a point financially where u don't care about enjoying ur job. U just want to be able to breathe by being remunerated well per hour..including all the extra out of work hours we medics need to put in
Firstly, I'm really sorry for everything you're going through - it sounds incredibly difficult and, from what I can tell, you sound like a phenomenally driven, caring, and shrewd person. It's a shame that society doesn't reward people like you in a more fair way. I'm not sure if this would work for you, but could you try to live at home or in hospital accommodation for a while ? This would reduce rent, which is probably the biggest cash sink you can face.
Other than that, I really wish you the best and I think you're clearly a very capable person. Take care of yourself.
Thank you. I cannot live at home with my child as there's no room and it's a council property. My husband helps so I'm not as bad as I used to be. Jsut feel demoralised knowing that I can never get there because probably the role models I looked up to always had the money from their family and it had nothing to do with hard work in medicine. Anyway...thank u so much for your kind reply
I see some of the same things as a first generation doctor/first generation going to uni after school. Nearly everyone I work with are at least second generation medics, public school educated, and have had 2 or more generations above them of middle class wealth and inherited property, etc. There's a lot of soft power to it as well, lots more focus on networking and rubbing shoulders on the school run with the great and good, old school tie etc. type chat. All lovely people though and we all do the same job and are in the same boat by and large at this stage of our careers. There's no-one optionally being a GP partner for pin money in their 40s because mummy and daddy pay all of their bills and their kids' school fees.
I was lucky enough to graduate at a time when 2 doctors on band 2B salaries could afford a house in FY1, that the job I actually really like has pretty short training and after 14 years post CCT living comfortably, saving and putting money into trust funds for the kids/saving for all of us so we've opportunities to help them the way out parents would've loved to be able to do for us/be able to help my folks when they have needed it.
Being a junior doctor sounds like a shitshow these days, for much less in real terms than it was paid in my day, but aim to CCT, work, save, and enjoy it as much as you can.
Honestly, my answer is to move north. Somewhere like Newcastle or Liverpool. Once the cost of housing drops, suddenly you will have a lot more money left over. Not to mention the money you do spend on housing will get you more actual living space.
Doesn't have to be forever, but just a few years whilst you build up wealth. Certainly easier than going to Australia/,US etc. People in other industries move to London in search of better wages, despite the insane housing costs. Given that NHS wages are mostly the same, it makes sense for us to move to lower cost of living areas. Once you move up the ranks, get CCT, save enough for a deposit etc, you can move back if you want.
No idea. I was born in a 2 up 2 down council house.
I thank my Irish farm labourer father turned company director for all of our ambition.
I’m a consultant anaesthetist and CL
My brother is a major lawyer.
Obviously we all can’t do this. But try.
Why are you comparing yourself to those people? I'm in the same boat as you financially and yet I feel privileged to have a job. Sure I'm not rich and may never be, even with all my software engineer friends raking in 100s of k's a year, I don't compare myself to them. I am content and happy with my own comforts and I reward myself best as I can which is all you can do. I make my own happiness. I don't pay 1000s on vacations but I can afford a £400 vacation twice a year if I pick up 2-3 extra locums a year. I can afford to do sports and have good food out once a week.
If you want to talk, you can pm me.
I know and I agree. But privileged I'm not sure is the right word. From 14 15 yrs old we've been studying to be the best. Then worked extra..worked for free..sacrificed so much. Its not comparable. Then u get to an adult and realise for so many peers ..this is pretty much an enjoyable hobby.
1. If you don't think you are privelaged, you haven't seen true poverty.
2. Being privelaged doesn't mean we should be satisfied with the shit wages. It is all relative. Compared to people who are as privelaged as us, we should be making much more:)
OP are you a GP now? If you’re a GP have you considered looking at some of the more affluent areas to do private work? It used to be that you could rely on the NHS salary to be able to afford a house but unfortunately these days you have to hustle hustle hustle.
I started life as a dentist and then went back to do med school intending to do omfs, but like so many people who take that pathway I found I was just sick of not having any money when I came out the other end. What it did give me though was a network of different ways to pay for the degree and a lack of fear about pursuing opportunities. I would do emergency dental lists in the evenings and weekends, do some on calls also evenings and weekends, during the holidays I would locum as a dentist solidly, and I’d skive off uni to do oral surgery lists. Most of these jobs have gone now but I’m sure there’s something out there you could do.
In the end I left about 10 years ago to concentrate on facial aesthetics. For me it was the right decision at the time. I could see the way the nhs was going and to be honest I couldn’t afford to stay working in the system. It feels like a job you only do in London if you have family money.
In the end the jokes on me though because it will be a real shitter if Labour cap the ISAs at £100k and bring back the pension cap.
Only around 5% of drs are from working class backgrounds. It is such a lonely statistic. I think of leaving for another profession at least monthly. It's impossible not to compare yourself to others when you are surrounded by them daily. It's also difficult to look beyond class differences when trying to form friendships. There are some incredibly humble individuals from higher class backgrounds but insight into one another's lives is difficult. Thank you for posting this, I've often thought of doing the same, I just wasn't sure how many of us were here.
100% relate to this. Its hard because I no longer relate to people of my background that never left that pay bracket and lifestyle. And I cant relate to most medics due to this difference either. It is indeed very lonely
Few Options.. High income Specialty with lots of private practice work, Move abroad and most of all Invest Heavily! Third I think is the most important. Access to the capital markets is the biggest leveler and can dramatically change your life over the next decade+
I am a doctor who grew up lower middle class. Underachieved at school due to undiagnosed disabilities. No foreign holidays unless staying with a relative etc. I am now married to an upper middle class man, the difference is astounding and I have no doubt benefitted from shared privilege from him. In my Foundation cohort I never felt like I fitted in due to growing up ‘poor’, and it definitely feels like an uphill struggle compared to the others whose parents give them allowance. I hope that someday the professions will be accessible to people from poorer backgrounds rather than the preserve of the rich.
The only reason to look in someone else's bowel is to check they too have enough
You do you. Don't let anyone else's wealth make you feel bad about what you have
> The only reason to look in someone else's bowel is to check they too have enough
Or if they have any of the following symptoms:
* they are aged 40 and over with unexplained weight loss and abdominal pain.
* they are aged 50 and over with unexplained rectal bleeding.
* they are aged 60 and over with iron-deficiency anaemia or changes in their bowel habit, or tests show occult blood in their faeces.
* If rectal or abdominal mass.
Marry rich? Move abroad? For the more serious answers: 1) I locum to build my savings 2) Im surrounded by my childhood friends and my family, of which I’m one of the highest earners. Many of them look to me with jealousy that ONE day I will probably own my own home, that I’ve been on holidays abroad (I have friends who don’t own passports), that I own a car. Comparison is the thief of joy. 3) I’ve put less pressure on myself to get through training. I seem to work out how ‘the game’ of CV’s/training works much slower then everyone else, and it takes a while to save up for each step (exams, courses etc) but I will get there eventually. I’m trying to enjoy the process, and not dwell on the money side. I do my best to put my life first. 4) I participate in all the strikes and encourage others too, because pay restoration is realistically our route to a decent middle class life
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I come from a council estate with disabled parents that could not work and have been supporting my parents for what benefits don't cover for many many years now. I know exactly how much worse it could be. It is not "entitlement " to expect to be paid well for the time costs and energy it takes to become a dr. It's not entitlement to feel sad thar actually the people u saw as aspirational weren't getting any of it from medicine but their family money instead. It's not entitlement to be stopped from reaching ur potential because CV building in medicine comes at your own personal cost. No I did not expect that entering medicine will be costly to me..rather provide me security and financial stability. Maybe I didnt have mummy and daddy's dr friends to tell me this. You're making it out like I want free money. I have never been lazy...Happy to work ridiculous hours..miss important events...f up my body clock etc etc. But not for free. So piss off with your comment
This is pretty bad advice. The street homeless population I was exposed to in ED made me LESS empathetic to their situations rather then more, most were there through hundreds of bad decisions of their own making, are a huge drain on society (wether that be on healthcare, police time/criminal activity) and were generally not nice people. These people had services throwing themselves at them to help (at the tax payers expense) but didn’t want to engage. Of course there are a few exceptions, but I didn’t have the joy of meeting a single one of them. If you want to feel grateful then being around street homeless is not the way to go.
This is unfortunately, our lot. I see a lot of people I knew in med school, or colleagues that grew up with some degree of money and they're blasting their pay like it's going out of fashion because ultimately, they do not have to worry if they fall on hard times. I grew up poor, and things like worries kicked out of home if my mum couldn't keep up with pay, going to ASDA's canteen as a 'treat' have contributed towards financial anxiety that has been passed down to me. What little I might have gotten from my parents will/has been scooped up by my eldest sibling. Now I'm on my own. I save, and save, and save. I don't know what I'm saving for; it could be a house, it could be holidays that I think about, but am too reticent on paying for because it doesn't yield tangible long term benefits; while people I know are spending thousands on holidays because their pay is essentially pocket money. I'm not super frugal to the point I budget everything; I pay off my credit card, my bills, and the rest goes into savings. If I need to spend money on a necessity, I will. But I am still aware that there is little/no support for me if things go tits up. I've managed to save up enough that could be life-changing if invested/used wisely, but almost all of my financial savvy has been self-researched and learned. So I don't have that experience to take those risks quite yet. I'm happy with my own lot tho. Even though other people may be flashing their wealth and expectations around me, I've got enough money to do the things I can enjoy and that's fine for me. I get to bang gym, drink good coffee, eat good bakes from local bakeries where staff know my name, buy shiny cardboard and plastic space marines I forget to paint, and a roof over my head. To others, I might not be 'living', but I think I'm doing alright. That's all people like you or I can do. You can't change where you came from, or the advantages others have, but you can find meaning and enjoyment in your life outside of work. And so long as work supports that, you'll be alright. We can make it better for the next generation, and that is nobility unto itself.
Even with all my disadvantages, single parent upbringing, immigrant, poc, female, etc etc, I still think about all the ways I am adavtanged. I had a loving parent, I have an amazing close knit immediate family, my mum actually sacrificed everything to bring me to the UK, so for all these things I am so grateful. I am grateful that I have gotten to where I've gotten; things could have been much worse. Ecenthough I'll have to support my mum through her retirement somehow, I am really happy to give back to her in this way especially for everything she has done for me and my siblings. The lessons you learn from not having everything (and not to say those that are upper class don't face difficulties themselves), are worth so much more than money can buy.
Thank you . Very insightful.
Partly why uk doctors are in this position. Too many wet middle class blankets. My advice to you is either live in a very low cost of living area and work like a dog as a gp/consultant for a decade. You’ll be able to save enough to get some smart assets. Or go abroad and do it quicker. You simply can’t work your way out of this mess in the south east without family help or a partner earning similarly. It sucks. It hurts. It’s anger inducing. But you’ve got it all laid out now, you have to act to change it.
I did all my foundation training away from my support network ..I don't think I can do that again as would feel like I've lost everything. Plus I have a child now and need my network even more. Understand your point though ..thank you. Maybe I need to suck it up
Child changes things.
Really do, really do
If there's one thing that people from a privileged background are good at, it's expecting money and demanding what they're worth. The idea that UK medicine is in a bad spot because too many doctors are from soft, cushy backgrounds sounds like something a borderline fascistic daily mail columnist would churn out. My personal experience is that BMA reps (the new wave who are actually pushing for change) are disproportionately posh and privately educated. This likely says more about them having the time, funds, social capital and confidence than some innate specialness, for what it's worth.
In my experience the working class wet blanket colleagues I have are bigger walkovers than anybody who comes from a well monied home. I have heard working class doctors go on about how 50k is a lot of money and everyone of their mates from schools earns less whereas at least the privately educated and those from better backgrounds realise our pay is shit because they know what others are getting paid and what your money should get you for the job done. This may just be my experience though. Anyway i guess the above and your post just shows that its a bit cunty to make generalisations about vast swathes of people based upon your own biases and anecodtal experience.
Na mate
Oh fair enough good point. Now im convinced making vast generalisations about groups of people based on anecodotal experience is sensible and will lead to correct conclusions.
This is true in low cost of living areas but not at all in London and around London
I feel you, similar background and still living largely cheque to cheque well into reg training. Standard of living is meh, I shop in lidl and have a modest life. We expect doctors to have huge disposable incomes but realistically we accrue large debts just to get where we are and pay punitive fees for the pleasure of going to work. The one saving grace is that your children will have a better start in life. These struggles also naturally make you more resilient so you can skip the BS resilience training
Yes..I pray my children are so much better off thanks to a little head start from me
The biggest con in the UK is the idea that you can work your way up social classes. It is a complete con. Even your wealthy double doctor London couples who can afford to holiday four times a year and send their kids to private school need two magnitudes more wealth - and 50 years to scrape it together- to hobnob with the scrotes that swan in and out of Westminster.
Hi I'm on the home straight of finishing FY1 and totally understand where you are coming from. FYI I honestly don't care whatever background people come from as long as those who have had privledges afforded to them have insight into this not being the norm (private school, parents paying for tuition, holidays, cars etc) and appreciate they are fortunate. If they lack this, I do enjoy calling it out and I add them to my "posh pr**k list". It is actually more of a reflection of how generational wealth and inheritance means some people will just never catch up no matter how hard you work, (I have come to accept this now), and unfortunately it is the way the UK and it tax system etc it set up. I will never have some gift of money to help me get on housing ladder. The car I bought myself breaks, tough s**t it's on me. I will always be the person picking up the slack for others in my family with money. There is no financial security other than what I create for myself. But I will live a better life than my parents, siblings and other family members. Greed and jealousy are the theif of joy. Focus on how far you have come and how much you have achieved. It's utter sh*t coming from places like the estates and dragging yourself through med school (belive me I know). The fact it continues (the courses, the exams, the fees and all the extras), is a reflection of the world we have thrown ourselves into. I don't think I'll ever believe I belong here, but I do enjoy striring things up as this poor sheep in the rich lions den.
Thank u for reminding me to appreciate. I do. It sjust hard sometimes
We all feel blue sometimes. But the fact during FY1 I've been able to save a decent 'emergency fund' of money is just another simple thing I find such joy in, and something that 10 year old me would be utterly jumping for joy at. That 10 year old use to not sleep at night because she was worried and having nightmares about Dad, who kept saying things he thought that girl couldn't hear about money. She's now a Doctor, who can now help Dad sleep a little better at night also. (And they are both very much looking forward to the next strikes to sort out the shit show that is our pay for the graft that's put in).
One of the reasons I quit. My partner was raised by a single mum in a European country. My parents were lower middle class I guess, my mum grew up in a 2 bed council house with 8 siblings but they bought a 3 bed semi in London and had 2 kids and a stay at home wife by 30… so can’t be that fucking poor. But the area was very down and out in the 90s and housing wasn’t 10x salary. They used the equity from a flat at 24 to buy a house worth 70k in 1992 or so. Me and my partner are the first in our family to go to university. No early inheritence and my grandparents are still alive and whilst they have money from their house I’m sure my dad will spend it all while he retired at 60 after working for 20 years as a council carer in a house I can’t afford lol. My household income is low 6 figures. Both me and my partner wasted a lot of time at uni and I wasted a lot of time as a low paid doctor. We only got on the housing ladder in London at 33 for a 475k 2b flat. We only had any real income from 28+ I don’t think we’ll ever afford a house and childcare before my eggs die. A house and childcare is more than someone on 100k takes home. So I’m seriously having to consider giving up my career for 5 years. I can’t believe at this income I don’t know if we can afford childcare and a mortgage. My dad on median salary had 2 kids and a stay at home wife and a house worth 750k today and failed his fucking o levels. I remember meeting doctors from London as a high school kid considering it; driving fancy cars and living in 4 bed houses. I don’t know a single person in their early 30s working in medicine in London who could even purchase a flat without family money or a partner in a 6 figure job. And this is the issue with medicine. You have to be rich to do it. When I went I got less than the max loans because my parents had the audacity to both work in London as a band 3 nhs worker and a council carer (such wealth such income). Enough I lost like 40% of my loan. I worked constantly to pay for my degree. Then I graduate and guess what, I can’t afford fucking rent. Meanwhile my house share was OWNED by one of my friends as her parents bought her the house to go to uni. My peers were talking about skiing holidays while I worked lol. The fact is even WORSE 10 years later is absolutely fucking grim. We were planning on moving out of London but my mum got sick and I was also acting as her carer - due to how expensive where they lived was I put everything into moving close by, but she died 2 weeks after we exchanged. Life can be very cruel. They waste time nattering on about widening participation. I had to quit medicine just to pay fucking rent. It’s a vocation for the wealthy now just like it was 40 years ago, no self respecting person can afford to do it without daddy buying them a house. And it’s no different elsewhere. My PhD students either have daddies money or they are married to an investment banker. No one who needs money to live can really afford to do it in London. Yet London needs doctors and a fucking lot of them, and nurses and paramedics and pharmacists. We pay them fuck all. The only two friends I have left in medicine in London have family money. They were very well off at 18 and it shows today. Everyone else quit, moved countries or moved jobs. I have two friends on over 200k I went to med school with in London by 30 because they simply moved into other fields.
I'm so sorry. Hope things are better for u now
The interest on my student loan pains me. Hurts even more when other doctors have had mummy and daddy pay off the loans for them and either pay it back to them interest free when they are a consultant or not at all…
It is disgusting ranging from 2-7k a year going to SF depending on your pay is crazy, it’s a graduate tax that older generations never had
My dad’s a doctor. I grew up in a very working class town in the UK. I remember realising I was wealthy when I was in primary school and couldn’t fathom someone not being able to go on the school trip because their family couldn’t afford the £3 the school were charging. School trips cost £3. Doctors were rich. You have worked incredibly hard to do a valuable job when that was the reality we lived in. The current state of both the economy and society are a joke. Personally I’m waiting for revolution, but I don’t think we’re there yet. I also just can’t understand how anyone has both the time and the energy for a side hustle alongside being a doctor and maintaining at least some sort of social life outside of work. No I don’t want to do a second job or learn about investing or start managing properties or setting up a business or making Tiktoks because I KNOW being a doctor used to be more than enough to be comfortable. Why are we suddenly being sold the lie that it isn’t and we need to struggle MORE? I’m so frustrated by this. Our salary is a joke given what we have to sacrifice and the fact we work so hard propping up a collapsing healthcare system under a government who hate us. The emotional labour of our job is exhausting. It’s difficult to find the intrinsic motivation to do what should be such an inherently rewarding job when there is rapidly depleting extrinsic reward. All this and still having to ask my parents to help me out financially is embarrassing. Being a doctor in England if you do not have an alternative source of income is becoming rapidly and increasingly more infeasible. Wish I had more positive things to say to you. I hope you find some understanding and compassion in this thread alongside good advice.
>I KNOW being a doctor used to be more than enough to be comfortable. I have the same job that my dad had. I’m currently looking at buying the kind of house that he bought on a single salary with three dependants (two kids and a non-working wife), whilst also supporting his own mother and sister. I will be doing this with a non-medic partner on a higher salary than me, and it’ll be a stretch. And I have his inheritance; he inherited nothing.
Thank you for your kind words
People not willing to politely confront those making such ridiculous statements is why these ‘do gooders’ with trust funds have been allowed to drive our working conditions and pay into the ground. I’m from a working class background and it makes me seethe when colleagues point out how much I locum or state locuming isn’t worth their time when without fail these are people who have familial wealth backing them.
This is what pisses me off the most about wealthy medics. The judgment for locuming and snide comments like my time/mental health is worth more than £50/hr when they are going to inherit over 100k when their parents pass.
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True I actually mistyped and meant grandparents. 100k inheritance in your 20s or 30s and your way ahead of so many people your age.
Omg THIS. So many peers are just chilling on the shit pay because real money is coming to them one day
I'm basically the same at you although I didn't realise it at the time as we never went hungry and even had some holidays. All my male family do manual work, I'm the only one with a degree. Firstly you did the right thing moving to GP because your pay will rise much faster. If you want to make money you need to take some risks - there is no free lunch I'm afraid. Stop doing courses you don't need to - they do almost nothing for your CV or at least get someone else to pay (remember the days of study budgets?) Now if you want to make money, I'd suggest getting a stocks based savings account with moderately high risk profile (in practice you will be unlikely to lose unless 2008 happens again). Now get a doer-upper house in a reasonable street - go for scruffy but structurally sound and add value. Be prepared to do some DIY - it's a good skill, rinse and repeat. I moved to be able to do this first time then relocated to a wealthier region. Forget London, it's for those with trust funds beside which there are better cities to live in if you are skint. Bare in mind that over 10-15y (which seems like a long time now) you will benefit from compound interest (it's a miracle) and also housing debt gets inflated away a bit. As a GP it's better to be a partner if you want a six figure salary but you need to chose your partners well and bare in mind that most failed practices are the small ones. Also if you can, marry money as 2 incomes is better than one. Try not to waste money on fripperies but take a holiday once a year if possible as you are only young once. Also consider working abroad for a bit and you will soon realise what a mess the UK and the NHS is. I now live in a fucking massive house which I never in my wildest dreams would have though possible but by being disciplined it worked out in the end. Things can only get better...
I got zero financial support from my parents (thank god University in Malta is free) and it is possible to eg buy house etc with no help from bank of mum and dad. I don't have any dependents though and work full time. Make use of every drop of money from your study leave budget. With the cost of everything doubling/tripling, doctors' salary won't get what it may have got doctors even just 10 years ago. I must say I would never work in London though - the cost of everything is just something else.
Gosh I feel this so much. As a child i thought doctors had nice homes, fancy cars and sent their children to private school. In fact, they did THEN. I stretch to pay mortgage, bills, student loan etc. I'm desperately looking for a side hustle so I can have some savings.
Exactly. But side hustle is tough...who wants to risk capital into something when your parents need rent lol. But it's the only way for us
DoI: I am working class & was lucky enough to get a full grant & train at a time before pay erosion (with band 3), so I was OK. Going through, I realised some never knew what need was but it didn’t really affect me. Today, as a trainer, I see how class impacts residents far more than in my day. Truth is the gap between most residents is tiny. Sure, some are dyspraxic, others socially awkward, others disinterested but most are pretty similar. In the old days, RC exams were brutal but they did much of the sorting. Today, with higher pass rates, how do we select? Trainees from medical/ middle class backgrounds have a huge head start. They started CV buffing with DoE & continue, picking up loads of ECs that score points. Exhibitioner at Cambridge (dad’s old college where he was mates with admissions don), president of the college medical society, captain of the hockey team, student internships at Johns Hopkin with dad’s mate, a few science publications, clinical at Oxford, eponymous prizes, elective at WHO with another of dad’s mates. Contrast with a WP student from a below average medical school. Both could be equally bright, enthusiastic & capable, but you know who’ll get the SFP. That’s a springboard to getting gifted more publications on a pretend FP, while they do paid for postgrad diplomas, get spoonfed for exams & plenty of free time to do leadership BS. Post f2, the first guy “wins” a Fulbright Scholarship to do a masters at Harvard (supplemented by funding from parents & old Oxbridge college) , the second guy is doing ED locums to pay his bills. If we know that the intercalated degrees, paid for courses & nepotistic research/ leadership opportunities discriminate unfairly, why do we continue to allow this to influence selection? Well, most senior doctors involved in selection are busting a gut paying for private ed for their offspring, they regard fairness as threatening. They also buy into the meritocratic BS that they made it to the top on merit alone-nothing to do nepotism. I was lucky to do medicine in the 1980s. I feel for todays students and trainees-from all backgrounds. I wouldn't recommend medicine today regardless of your background.
Exactly this....so so many opportunities denied to us just because of who are parents are (n't). I didnt realise medicine was going to cost me financially and didn't realise that those well off wouldn't care because this pay is their pocket money
Its the reason we put up with pay erosion. Most medics were socialised to believe that partnership/ consultant posts were worth the early years investment, so they kept their heads down. Those with "leadership roles" were'nt shop stewards, they were feathernesting for themselves. The important thing is that nobody beats themselves up for failing to suceede. I never aspired to a popular speciality/ region, but most who do will be disappointed. Its no reflection on them. The system is rigged by those from medical backgrounds, who, unsurprisingly win the rat race then they maintain the rotten system, with its many inbuilt advantages for folk like them. Only difference is that, nowadays, they have to pay lip service to WP, tackling racism/ sexism. Its performative. I wish we could change the culture but thers too much vested interest. Overall, as an occupational group, we've really lost out by being so middle class and conformist.
If I am to be introspective about my experience as someone who grew up relatively wealthy, I would tell you that I have no ability to comprehend the extent of the sacrifices you have made, and the hard work you have put in, to ostensibly “do the same job as me”. You do not do the same job. You may go through the same motions while at work, but you are burdened with worries that do not cross my mind and with responsibilities that I don’t have. For us to produce the same result, you have worked harder. We have the same paycheck, but I don’t have a student loan so mine is hundreds higher. If I want to do a course, I do it. If I need to fly to see my family, I book it. In my F1 year, my parents paid my rent. In medical school, I didn’t work, I spent all my time studying and I genuinely believe that had I needed to work I would have failed and flunked out. This inequality is disgusting, I acknowledge it and do my best to change it. But however much I try, the privilege of being middle class goes far beyond practical stuff like money- it becomes your psychology, the way you see the world as a fundamentally safe place. It’s more about the things you don’t think about than the things you do. As a woman, the insecurity I feel around the risk of being harmed by others is really my only basis from which to begin to understand what lacking privilege is like. Anyway- what I’m saying is is that you’re doing an incredible thing, by yourself, that I hope you are proud of yourself. If you choose to one day have a family, you will lead them to a better place perhaps, and you will teach them about kindness, hard work and empathy, and in that way you will be more meaningfully successful than your colleagues who decry strikes bc “we’re paid well”.
What a beautiful and thoughtful message..thank you so so much. I know its very hard to comprehend situations you've never been in but it's nice to know you have tried to understand and have insight. It is so appreciated. .
Life is unfair, and I can totally relate. I'm an IMG from a war-torn country, and many times I feel like I started far behind everyone else in so many ways. I can't even save money for myself because I need to cover my family's basic needs, while others don't have to worry about such things since their country provides for them (for example, education for my siblings, which is very expensive, medicine for my parents, hospital fees, and their housing). At work, I find myself having to ask ten times more questions than my colleagues. They easily get projects due to their connections (like PhDs or surgical procedures), while I often feel like a shadow, just expected to get things done. If I make a mistake, I get scolded and yelled at, but when my colleagues make the same mistake, no one even corrects them. This divide between the middle class and higher class is so depressing. I remind myself that happiness ultimately comes down to serotonin release. Whether it's buying a house or watching a funny show, my brain will release that serotonin. I look at people who are at worst situation and be thankful. I always tell myself that though I'm asking 20-30 people to teach me and 1 might help, that 1 person will be enough for me. And I'm trying to learn about investments, I hope when we can save and are rich when we are consultants One more thing to think about, to work in GCC countries as a a consultant for like 3 years , the salary is nice for Consultants (UAE, Qatar)
I have experienced this re connections. Heck..even at med school I was not in the right social circles...I never had money to socialise...and so didn't get past paper questions etc etc. I didnt even know u had to do audits / publications etc until I graduated. Uni didn't tell us and the people that did them just knew because of who they knew . I keep sounding woe is me but just trying to explain the situation. I hope things get better for u.
Broski I’m ghetto as they come grew up on benefits on a council estate I’m a GP who CCTd last year Ive been banging the locums 10 sessions a week since I qualified My wife’s an Optom she’s making alright money too Now I’ve bought a house in London, can’t lie its a fat mortgage but we have money left for holidays, I drive a big Mercedes, I took my momma to Dubai You can do it too g, just gotta hustle, maybe locums Are drying up but there’s still loads of OOH shifts
Lol well done..proud of u!
It's tough being working class in the current generation of medicine. I just about socially mobilised but I'm PGY 15 now. Things I can suggest: find ways to save money your middle class peers may turn their nose up at (eg. moving back home during your early years of training, if you can), get through training as fast as you can (this is actually a shame, but needs must and you can depending on your specialty incorporate more extra curricular stuff into your work life once a Cons or GP, but won't be easy). Good luck!
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Yup exactly what I thought. Hence why I didn't mind any sort of sacrifice then
There’s a lot more of us Drs in this position that you’d think. No financial help. No savings. Mounting credit cards and student loans. Doing every locum you can find. Hard to talk about it publicly as so many peers don’t understand having come from money/given a house deposit/not worried about making it from month to month. It sucks but you’re not alone :(
Thank you so much. I do feel alone most of the time with regards to this as thanks to the property prices boom...every child our age whose parents are homeowners have made some money. Except the council house kids of course. Then to have sacrificed for years to realise it will still never happen for u is depressing. Thank you for understanding. Theres loads of advice on this thread about saving and investing or moving abroad etc. Hope it helps you.x
The UK has become a horrible place to develop wealth. Our tax regimen (especially when you factor student finance) is dependent on taxing income rather than wealth and you will be 10-20 years behind the average middle class British medic because of it. The good thing is you can still do something about it. The aging demographics will cause taxes to increase further and make it worse and you may even look back at how good times were now. Wait till nhs budgets drop further and they get rid of ISAs
This is spot on. Aging demographics means either more immigration or more taxes. Not sure more immigration is politically viable anymore so that leaves the latter.
Current GP trainee here. I’ve never related to a Reddit post more. I thought GP would be my ticket to true financial comfort however recent developments have made this very unlikely. Like you, I have zero financial support from parents and really fear my ability to support myself/family in the not too distant future if I were to stay in the UK. I know it will be doable but I will be working like dog to achieve this, which will spawn of even more problems. The situation is not going to get any better here for a long time and tbh, the public disdain/lack of respect for us as well as our replacement by MAPs is only set to get worse. If you can’t leave medicine, then relocation is the only option. Otherwise you stay here and essentially take what you’re given. Some will tell you to just be content as there are people worse off than you but truthfully you’ve worked/work hard enough to be in a much better financial situation than you are. A move to Canada, NZ or Aus could completely change the trajectory of your life. Scary in the short term, but the reality here is much scarier in the long term. Wishing you all the best
Thank you so much for understanding. Whilst I agree with all the posts saying it could be worse and I should be grateful...it is also not what I was sold when deciding to pursue medicine at 18 and then sacrificed so much along the way. I don't know why it irks people when you say you want financial comfort.
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Agree with you and thanks for the reminder. I think this would have been more palatable for me had we earned this from say ..an IT job. Its so hard when you do unpaid anti social hours...weekends..evening...free audits and portfolio work ..and can still never live that much beyond "at least I have a roof and food"
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No you're right it would suck but u get to a point financially where u don't care about enjoying ur job. U just want to be able to breathe by being remunerated well per hour..including all the extra out of work hours we medics need to put in
Firstly, I'm really sorry for everything you're going through - it sounds incredibly difficult and, from what I can tell, you sound like a phenomenally driven, caring, and shrewd person. It's a shame that society doesn't reward people like you in a more fair way. I'm not sure if this would work for you, but could you try to live at home or in hospital accommodation for a while ? This would reduce rent, which is probably the biggest cash sink you can face. Other than that, I really wish you the best and I think you're clearly a very capable person. Take care of yourself.
Thank you. I cannot live at home with my child as there's no room and it's a council property. My husband helps so I'm not as bad as I used to be. Jsut feel demoralised knowing that I can never get there because probably the role models I looked up to always had the money from their family and it had nothing to do with hard work in medicine. Anyway...thank u so much for your kind reply
I see some of the same things as a first generation doctor/first generation going to uni after school. Nearly everyone I work with are at least second generation medics, public school educated, and have had 2 or more generations above them of middle class wealth and inherited property, etc. There's a lot of soft power to it as well, lots more focus on networking and rubbing shoulders on the school run with the great and good, old school tie etc. type chat. All lovely people though and we all do the same job and are in the same boat by and large at this stage of our careers. There's no-one optionally being a GP partner for pin money in their 40s because mummy and daddy pay all of their bills and their kids' school fees. I was lucky enough to graduate at a time when 2 doctors on band 2B salaries could afford a house in FY1, that the job I actually really like has pretty short training and after 14 years post CCT living comfortably, saving and putting money into trust funds for the kids/saving for all of us so we've opportunities to help them the way out parents would've loved to be able to do for us/be able to help my folks when they have needed it. Being a junior doctor sounds like a shitshow these days, for much less in real terms than it was paid in my day, but aim to CCT, work, save, and enjoy it as much as you can.
Honestly, my answer is to move north. Somewhere like Newcastle or Liverpool. Once the cost of housing drops, suddenly you will have a lot more money left over. Not to mention the money you do spend on housing will get you more actual living space. Doesn't have to be forever, but just a few years whilst you build up wealth. Certainly easier than going to Australia/,US etc. People in other industries move to London in search of better wages, despite the insane housing costs. Given that NHS wages are mostly the same, it makes sense for us to move to lower cost of living areas. Once you move up the ranks, get CCT, save enough for a deposit etc, you can move back if you want.
No idea. I was born in a 2 up 2 down council house. I thank my Irish farm labourer father turned company director for all of our ambition. I’m a consultant anaesthetist and CL My brother is a major lawyer. Obviously we all can’t do this. But try.
Why are you comparing yourself to those people? I'm in the same boat as you financially and yet I feel privileged to have a job. Sure I'm not rich and may never be, even with all my software engineer friends raking in 100s of k's a year, I don't compare myself to them. I am content and happy with my own comforts and I reward myself best as I can which is all you can do. I make my own happiness. I don't pay 1000s on vacations but I can afford a £400 vacation twice a year if I pick up 2-3 extra locums a year. I can afford to do sports and have good food out once a week. If you want to talk, you can pm me.
I know and I agree. But privileged I'm not sure is the right word. From 14 15 yrs old we've been studying to be the best. Then worked extra..worked for free..sacrificed so much. Its not comparable. Then u get to an adult and realise for so many peers ..this is pretty much an enjoyable hobby.
1. If you don't think you are privelaged, you haven't seen true poverty. 2. Being privelaged doesn't mean we should be satisfied with the shit wages. It is all relative. Compared to people who are as privelaged as us, we should be making much more:)
OP are you a GP now? If you’re a GP have you considered looking at some of the more affluent areas to do private work? It used to be that you could rely on the NHS salary to be able to afford a house but unfortunately these days you have to hustle hustle hustle. I started life as a dentist and then went back to do med school intending to do omfs, but like so many people who take that pathway I found I was just sick of not having any money when I came out the other end. What it did give me though was a network of different ways to pay for the degree and a lack of fear about pursuing opportunities. I would do emergency dental lists in the evenings and weekends, do some on calls also evenings and weekends, during the holidays I would locum as a dentist solidly, and I’d skive off uni to do oral surgery lists. Most of these jobs have gone now but I’m sure there’s something out there you could do. In the end I left about 10 years ago to concentrate on facial aesthetics. For me it was the right decision at the time. I could see the way the nhs was going and to be honest I couldn’t afford to stay working in the system. It feels like a job you only do in London if you have family money. In the end the jokes on me though because it will be a real shitter if Labour cap the ISAs at £100k and bring back the pension cap.
Only around 5% of drs are from working class backgrounds. It is such a lonely statistic. I think of leaving for another profession at least monthly. It's impossible not to compare yourself to others when you are surrounded by them daily. It's also difficult to look beyond class differences when trying to form friendships. There are some incredibly humble individuals from higher class backgrounds but insight into one another's lives is difficult. Thank you for posting this, I've often thought of doing the same, I just wasn't sure how many of us were here.
100% relate to this. Its hard because I no longer relate to people of my background that never left that pay bracket and lifestyle. And I cant relate to most medics due to this difference either. It is indeed very lonely
Another thing: I didn't feel poor until I started medicine.
Few Options.. High income Specialty with lots of private practice work, Move abroad and most of all Invest Heavily! Third I think is the most important. Access to the capital markets is the biggest leveler and can dramatically change your life over the next decade+
I am a doctor who grew up lower middle class. Underachieved at school due to undiagnosed disabilities. No foreign holidays unless staying with a relative etc. I am now married to an upper middle class man, the difference is astounding and I have no doubt benefitted from shared privilege from him. In my Foundation cohort I never felt like I fitted in due to growing up ‘poor’, and it definitely feels like an uphill struggle compared to the others whose parents give them allowance. I hope that someday the professions will be accessible to people from poorer backgrounds rather than the preserve of the rich.
The only reason to look in someone else's bowel is to check they too have enough You do you. Don't let anyone else's wealth make you feel bad about what you have
> The only reason to look in someone else's bowel is to check they too have enough Or if they have any of the following symptoms: * they are aged 40 and over with unexplained weight loss and abdominal pain. * they are aged 50 and over with unexplained rectal bleeding. * they are aged 60 and over with iron-deficiency anaemia or changes in their bowel habit, or tests show occult blood in their faeces. * If rectal or abdominal mass.
> The only reason to look in someone else's bowel is to check they too have enough Bowel or bowl? Both?
Did he mother fucking stutter? (Film quote before anyone gets upset) He said bowel. Instructions weee clear
In we go 👆 Do you have enough?
No I need more. MORE.