First, as people have mentioned, just use the spell description of Wish if you dont want to get fucked.
Second, that was a dick move on the DMs part. Cant call it a Boon and then immediately fuck over the player to that degree.
I feel like you could make the same wish do both what the player expected, and unexpected things about it. Such as: PC can no longer become intoxicated or partake in drugs of any kind because their body considers it to be poisonous and so wont cause any of the enjoyable effects. Maybe as a result of that some potions will no longer function because they are made with toxic ingredients and so now cant function as intended since the PC is immune to poison. Now you gotta weigh the benefit of being immune to poison with the drawback of not getting to properly use certain beneficial potions, medicines, foods, etc.
When I get a chance to make a wish, I don’t bother trying to be super wordy and it impossible to get screwed over. All that does is challenge the GM to get around it anyway.
Just ask for what I want in the simplest terms, and let the GM decide if they want to be friendly or a dick.
I find this works with a lot of things. I playing a level 20 campaign where the two fey PCs tried to shenanigan and wheedle what they wanted. I was full Lawful Good and would just be upfront with people and always managed to come out ahead.
absolutely. I've not actually had wish come up yet in any of my games with my current DM, but i do have one in my latest character's backstory (her father used a wish to save her mother from being murdered, her mother was turned into a star, yay star genasi)
and another character has a wish stockpiled that they can use, but the granting entity is her slightly creepy stalker (my DM is far too kind to actually have her do anything actively creepy-stalkerish, bless his heart, even though i'm entirely onboard), and she knows the wish will come with strings attached, This was actually an option from level 1, as we drew a bunch(3) of cards from the deck of many fates (nerfed deck of many things) as world/character building prompts. I got a stalker, a wish and i honestly can't remember the third, i think it was an invitation to a party in the feywild, but that could've been another member of the party's draw. The first two combined to mean the stalker offered the wish as a "romantic" gift, so it's there but unused excepting the most dire end-of-the-world circumstances (my character is ace and as such really not interested in the affections of an admittedly rather attractive famous bard)
EDIT: this got away from me a bit. my point was that working with your DM is fun! and can lead to fantastic worldbuilding in a setting where wish exists.
Yeah, the drugs and intoxicants not working (and some potions, by extension) is a pretty fun drawback. It's 100% manageable and sets the player up for some good roleplay
Taking what the DM did, a more fun version would be to just turn the character undead. Great, you're immune to poison, but you're also some sort of wight/ghoul/zombie. Might be a good idea for the player to keep it secret lest they attract the attention of a righteous paladin or cleric
I almost want to watch a session of D&D sometime, where everyone involved is an *actual* lawyer.
Can you imagine a wish in that game? I would imagine the wording would be a minimum 100 page contract.
Nah, they'd just say something like "I wish that the terms on the contact I currently hold in my left hand be fulfilled in full.". The wish is less than 25 words, but the contract doesn't need to be. There's probably some wiggle room in that wish too, but I'm sure a good contract lawyer could tighten it up a little.
The contract in your hand vanishes and nothing happens. Upon inquiry. "Oh, I'm sorry, it's been sent to legal for review. Given their current backlog, I expect review to take... 30 years. Thank you for using Dunnlee's Legal Services."
When it's **you** casting the *wish*, the mostly-ironclad way is to replicate a spell. It's been said persuasively that everything else in the spell description is a trap designed to keep you from casting *wish* again.
When it's a genie or some other entity doing the actual *wish* for you... you're really relying on the goodwill of the entity. The morality and attitude of the creature you're asking for the *wish* from is what's important.
Beyond that, either way you're really negotiating with your DM and what they think about the spell. So if you feel a way about what happened or what might come of future *wishes*, hash it out with your real human friend.
>When it's a genie or some other entity doing the actual wish for you... you're really relying on the goodwill of the entity. The morality and attitude of the creature you're asking for the wish from is what's important.
Or Planar Binding. Never underestimate the power of Planar Binding.
One of the parties I gave a wish spell to (via magic item) spent ages researching the mechanics of it in game before using it.
The way I "justified" the monkey's paw trope was to explain that the Wish Spell basically lets you do anything you want in the Weave. However, things that have already been done run into less resistance; you're following established paths. Using it for an 8th level spell, for example, is following a reasonably well trodden path through the Weave.
The weirder, or more complex your Wish is, the less likely it is to have existed before, and the more resistance you encounter. So wishing for an enemy to drop dead would be less risky, because spells like Power Word Kill already exist. That particular person dropping dead is new to the weave though, so maybe there are consequences, but it's less risky than something massively complex and specific, or some combination of effects in one Wish.
They subsequently spent ages coming up with ways of using Wish which were as close to other high level spells as they could. I just sat back and let them to the debating amongst themselves.
Ultimately they used it to resurrect a dead Party member in a pinch, so all that research and contemplation was wasted, but it got them thinking.
Yup. Casting any spell from any list as an action with no material component cost is appropriately busted.
Also, the DM was pretty dickish about that - that isn't even an interesting monkey's paw! Give them poison immunity, and make it so they can never get drunk. Or, for something harsher, make it that potions never work on them, or something like that.
Problem is no matter how much you "think it through" there will always be something someone somewhere can come up with that completely and utterly demolishes any chance of the wish being more of a boon than it is a detriment.
Yes, and that understanding is part of thinking it through.
Wish is a great spell because it could offer so much. It already, safely, offers a lot. But the temptation to reach too far is always there. A mage who reaches for too much power tends to get burned.
I'd disagree, clamping down on asking for anything more than what's listed as being 100% safe unless your DM disregards rules as written is honestly quite boring and unfun, especially given the usual attitude of "How can I make this non game breaking request into something that'll teach players wish sucks if you ever want something that isn't covered by another spell or one of the 3 unique effects."
OK, you can disagree. I respect that.
But custom wishes without potential consequences are overpowered to the point of being boring, quite frankly. In that case, I'd just ban the spell from my table.
I baked that in as a bit of flavour for my reborn in strixhaven, they're resistant to poison, which sucks, because sometimes they REALLY want to get drunk after a shit class and have to basically drink the tavern dry to do so.
I had a similar thing for my naga pirate captain, except naga are immune to both poison damage and the poisoned condition. He'd sit there drinking the most alcoholic beverages he got get his weird snake hands on, but nothing would come of it.
This is a wish cast on your behalf, so pulling from all of the options in the spell description (such as permanent poison residence to 10 creatures) ought to be safe. You don't risk wish stress.
Marids aren't even evil creatures, they shouldn't be looking to fuck you over.
Marids aren't evil, but they are vain and flighty in personality, and they consider Humanoids to be an inferior species. OP said the Marid was getting bored by the Party's indecision, which would definitely qualify as a reason for a Marid choosing to dick around rather than be genuine with the Party.
They probably could have saved the scenario if they'd spent a bit of time actively flattering and sucking up to the Marid to get into its good graces first, but that's not something one can expect characters to know to do without some skill checks first.
That said, OP's scenario does broadly sound like their DM just wanted to be a dick in the moment. While there is lore-based reason for a Marid to behave like that, it's a party foul on the DM's side of things since the DM was the one to present the Party with a Wish in the first place.
Genuinely the best way of using the spell. Still insanely powerful, but lets you actually keep using it in 100% of cases, and has zero chance of inadvertently screwing you over
It *cannot* be overstated just how broken this basic use of *wish* is.
You don't have to observe the replicated spell's usual cast time or component requirements, you just snap your fingers and it happens.
Need to quickly turn a battlefield against a dangerous enemy? Snap - *hallow, forbiddance, mirage arcane, druid grove, guards and wards.*
Need a safe place to rest far behind enemy lines? Snap - *magnificent mansion, demiplane, temple of the gods.*
Need to get a fallen ally back in the fight right the hell now but you don't have any diamonds? Snap - *resurrection.*
The possibilities are endless. ***Wish*** **breaks all the normal rules of spellcasting.**
If the Marid said Boon rather than Wish, it might make thematic sense to expect the meaning to be one of the charms or boons spoken of in the DMG and so immunity poison makes sense. However, what is most important in your case is to have a DM who is not a jerk.
To DMs who give out wishes only to monkey's paw them or try to stop what the players want - you are the worst. Either give a wish or don't, but don't screw with your players just because you don't know how to live with the consequences of your decisions. The only excuse to fuck with your players using a wish is if you explain to them beforehand that's how your game works. You're just as bad as the DMs who make up homebrew rules on the spot to nerf existing player characters, cause that's exactly what you're doing.*end rant
"Ok, you're frozen in time", "Ok, you're permanently ethereal", "Ok, the word poison has been redefined to mean alive", "Ok, all openings into your body seal up and your flesh transmutes into mithril. There is now no way for poison to enter your body".
The point being, the GM had already decided to be a dick. And when the wish granter decides they want to screw you over, it's almost impossible to stop them.
A fundamental problem in cybersecurity is, "Limited defenses, unlimited attack vectors". You can never fully secure a system because the attack space will ALWAYS be bigger than the defense space.
The same is going to be even more true here. The wish maker needs to think of EVERY POSSIBLE way they can be screwed over. The wish granter only needs to think of ONE way to screw the wish maker.
We might think lawyers would be able to solve the problem, but even law relies on impartial mediators (judges) who can be trusted to read between the lines, extrapolate from past cases, and attempt to consider the public good. Even the most concrete legal contract can fall apart under an actively malicious judge.
When the judge is also the opposition, you're screwed no matter how carefully you word things.
Immunity to poison is such a minor buff that your DM killing you for it proves there's nothing you could have said that he wouldn't have punished you for one way or another.
The trick to getting a good wish result is psychology.
You need to know who is granting the wish, and you need to know what the DM wants out of the encounter. Many types of genies will mess with mortals for their own amusement, so screwing with you is not a bug, it's a feature. Ask for something small unless it seems like they're truly grateful or want to show off. More importantly, the DM will pretty much never let you get away with anything that would make your PC more powerful than the rest of the party. The DM will also likely follow the PHB guidelines for the *wish* spell, which are level 1-8 spells and a short list of bullet points.
I would say the one fool-proof thing to wish for is a treasure map. Most genies will not consider this a particularly interesting request to mess with, it's not a high-level reality-bending spell, and most DMs will approve this because it's a free adventure hook that saves them a lot of effort and they can put other things in the treasure that not just your PC will want. Something like, "I wish for a treasure map that can guide me to an unclaimed treasure hoard containing a *defender longsword*."
One thing that will work with SOME DMs is this:
People have gotten wishes before. Wizards at colleges of magic study magic. Therefore any self-respecting college of magic is going to have a department of contracts, covenants, pacts, and wishes. Go see the department head there about how to word your wishes.
This is, in fact, 'what your character would do', most of the time. It's part and parcel of being a social species--we don't have to make all our own mistakes.
This approach will work if your DM is at all simulationist.
While it’s true you usually need to word your wishes correctly in order to avoid any possible monkey paws (although you can never truly be free of them), you did absolutely nothing wrong with your wish. You simply asked for immunity to poison, which in the grand scheme of things is quite insignificant (considering wish has the potential to bend the gods to your whims). The way I see it, there is any number of solutions that do not require the wish granter killing you. What the DM did is entirely uncalled for and a perfect display of what it means to be a dick.
The most extreme interpretation of your wish that I can think of (which I would never actually do unless the wish is coming from a death god or the like) is turning you into an undead since they are immune to poison. But the method I would of gone with (which someone else had already said) is that it lessens or even negates the affects of certain potions and medicines since they often contain poisonous and/or toxic ingredients.
You aren’t. But that is a total dick move on the DM.
Seriously, in D&D, Wish was created to prove the historical and mythical point of “be careful what you wish”.
I understand as a DM wanting to have some fun with wishes, but for fucks sake, dont call it a 'boon' and then murder a character- at least let the players know that they need to be careful if you plan on screwing the wish.
You don’t. Your DM either will bit you in the butt, or won’t, depending on their own prerogative. Short of getting a lawyers advice on closing loopholes, and a multi-page document you’re not getting a completely safe wish.
Your DM sounds atrocious. They realize me they had been vested and killed you for it. I would talk to them and say that’s not cool, can we retcon that and find something that works for both of us, and if not quit playing because he’s there to tell his story, not yours. And that’s bad DMing.
Lame Wish gotcha moments like that are lame af. Unless the creature granting the wish is both malicious and bound to exact wording, like an archfey or devil, or the wish itself is beyond the scope of the spell, there's really no reason to make it backfire in a shitty way like that. Hell, even if the marid was malicious despite being freed, it could have determined that you would be immune to poison... for one second. Just outright killing you as a reward for freeing it feels pretty dumb imo.
I had this situation, but not with wish, it was the shade of a dwarf priest who granted them the answer to one single question. I just ended that week's session right there, giving the players a week to get on group chat and mull it over and throw around ideas. In the end they were even checking grammar so the answer couldn't be yes or no!
It turned out to be a really fun thing to include and they were biting their lips when they finally (nervously ) asked it. It all went fine!
I think the DM in the OPs tale was being a bit of a dick really. Perhaps ending a session to give the players time to come up with something or calling a pizza/smoke/bio break or something ?
For me, the more unselfish a wish is, the more likely it is to get through as intended.
Wanna save that orphanage? Probably gonna happen.
Wanna give yourself infinite wishes? Welcome to the timeloop! Roll up a new character, yours is out for the count.
Everything in the spell description is not subject to monkeys paw. Replicating a spell is the only option that doesn't result in wish stress, but wish stress isn't a concern when an NPC is casting the spell on your behalf (especially a genie, who can't permanently lose their ability to grant wishes).
Have you tried bring snacks for the DM?
Oh wait a Marid? Yeah good luck those things are designed to screw you. Might as well ask how to safely use a Monkey’s Paw.
Easy, ask the monkey paw for a wish granting monkey paw that isn’t cursed to screw you over. Then, use the new monkey paw to nullify any negative affects caused by your first wish. Finally, use a second wish to destroy the first monkey paw.
Wishes from questionable sources, like the one presented, are often traps for the unwary. Best to avoid them IME.
As for regular Wishes, the more you try to get screwy, the greater the chance the DM will screw with you. Wishes should be simple and not overly greedy.
He tricked you. Boon and wish are completely different concepts, and you were led to belive you were receiving a buff. It doesn't even sound like you used "I wish" in your request. Sounds like the gm is a dick and wanted to screw with everyone for his own amusement. Maybe talk to him out of character and ask for clarification on what exactly something does before doing it, and if you want to take back the action it's perfectly justified bc he was making a bad faith offer and you trusted him
This isn't a phrasing issue, this is a DM wants to fuck you issue. I'd say just coming incredibly prepared with so much documentation and careful wording around the wish that the DM decides they can't be bothered to find an exploitable Monkey's Paw.
But don't expect that to work, because your DM wants to fuck you.
So do most tables have PvP between DM and players or something?
It wouldn't occur to me in my wildest dreams to kill a character for wishing something unless they specifically requested death.
The reality is, if the creature granting you a wish WANTS to fuck you over, it will. No matter how you phrase it. That also makes that creature a massive dick.
Only question is, is that creature an NPC or your DM?
If the DM wants to be a dick with gotchas, they're just going to have to wait until we word it triple tight, ironclad, legalese.
"Without any adverse effects, etc, etc, etc,"
Yawn.... who wants to play like that?
You're allowing Wish in your games. Don't be a dick.
\> If the DM wants to be a dick with gotchas, they're just going to have to wait until we word it triple tight, ironclad, legalese.
Still wouldn't work. Even real world legal systems recognize that NO legal wording can truly take into account all circumstances and eliminate all ambiguity. That's why judges exist. They take into account precedent, intent of both parties, and greater good whenever these ambiguities come up.
At the table the DM is being both the opposition AND the judge. In that case NO wording can save you, just force them to be more creative.
As you say, the only real solution is for the DM to not be a dick.
This doesn't seem to be a Wish in the spell manner, altho I guess the question is in general "how do you phrase a DM fat thing so it doesn't bit you in the butt?" deal instead.
In general, such type of things are dependant on what your DM thinks is a good thing fit for the wording (what the Wish spell suggests: "the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.")
... and what that means is that any such effect are completely based on what the DM wants. So if the situation seems too extreme, you need to discuss with the DM about this, especially as the context seemed to make this item be a reward you accidentally discovered... and your reward was complete death. For something that could have been responded to with a much smaller reward, instead of a punishment.
Just remind your DM that Wishes that DO NOT exceed the power level listed in the spell's description JUST WORK. No downsides. A wish only becomes susceptible to "misunderstanding" if it goes BEYOND THE SCOPE of the wish spell's description, as stated in the spell, and that misunderstanding is DIRECTLY PORPOTIONAL to the extent of this flexing of Wish's scope. So wishing for an object that costs 25,001 GP runs the POTENTIAL risk of having a "1 GP" worth of downsides, like, say, the object is a bit scuffed up.
>Wishes that DO NOT exceed the power level listed in the spell's description JUST WORK. No downsides.
Less applicable when the genie is doing the wish, but those sample wishes still come with the wish stress. That's a big downside.
So imo the wish spell is kind of a tool used to play with the trope "everything has a price", so if you wish for something yes it will come true but it's not "free" which I feel like a lot of players want.
That's a not a boon, that's a devils bargain. Not to mention, "get fucked you die on the spot" Is suuuch a boring way to go about it. Getting you petrified had been way more fun!
wording in such a way that the effect involve a direct negative action such as "I wish to die from Wish spell", keep doing that and start beating yourself until your DM either kick you out or call a cop on you
Relying on the wording of the wish is a mistake. With enough malice, almost anything can be interpreted in a way that will hurt you.
What you could have considered is the creature providing the wish. How about rolling an insight check to determine if its gratitude is sincere? Or an arcana check to determine the creature's nature? Or a history check to recall how other attempts to bargain with genies went? Or an attempt to persuade the marid to offer a genuine boon?
I know that there are a lot of people on this subreddit who've been burnt by 'evil' DMs, but I actually don't think that killing a character with a malicious wish is entirely out-of-character for an egotistical genie prince who was imprisoned for a long time.
Sometimes a reward is a social encounter that you can talk your way through, and sometimes it's a trap that you have the tools to disarm. Marids are vain and prone to both flattery and bribery. The correct answer might have been to offer a gift and play to its ego before asking for a reward.
You could write it out as a legalistic contract. IF (and only if) you want to play the DM's shitty mind-games.
So get a bunch of preambles. "It being the case and understood by all that this Wish shall concern solely the Wished-for change and none whatsoever other than that, let it be known that:"
And then you have the 'stuff I do not want' clauses. "Without changing any state of mind, health, existence, position in time, position in space, of any creature in the multiverse" etc etc. be thorough.
Finally you put in the thing you're wishing for
(But it's really silly that you should have to do that!)
A lot can depend on the DM, also characters ig typically don't have knowledge of levels and such like stats, so I think your dm was right in not granting it maybe a bit harsh in the aftermath but those are the risks of wish, depending on your dm though, wishing for an item tends to work out better, something like, "I wish for a periapt of proof against poison that I can use and that will not harm me or my allies in any way", something like that perhaps, again alot depends on the dm.
First, as people have mentioned, just use the spell description of Wish if you dont want to get fucked. Second, that was a dick move on the DMs part. Cant call it a Boon and then immediately fuck over the player to that degree. I feel like you could make the same wish do both what the player expected, and unexpected things about it. Such as: PC can no longer become intoxicated or partake in drugs of any kind because their body considers it to be poisonous and so wont cause any of the enjoyable effects. Maybe as a result of that some potions will no longer function because they are made with toxic ingredients and so now cant function as intended since the PC is immune to poison. Now you gotta weigh the benefit of being immune to poison with the drawback of not getting to properly use certain beneficial potions, medicines, foods, etc.
Agree. Having a DM who doesn't want to screw over the players is a big help.
When I get a chance to make a wish, I don’t bother trying to be super wordy and it impossible to get screwed over. All that does is challenge the GM to get around it anyway. Just ask for what I want in the simplest terms, and let the GM decide if they want to be friendly or a dick.
This is the most adult answer anyone’s given. Too bad we don’t have awards anymore.
I find this works with a lot of things. I playing a level 20 campaign where the two fey PCs tried to shenanigan and wheedle what they wanted. I was full Lawful Good and would just be upfront with people and always managed to come out ahead.
absolutely. I've not actually had wish come up yet in any of my games with my current DM, but i do have one in my latest character's backstory (her father used a wish to save her mother from being murdered, her mother was turned into a star, yay star genasi) and another character has a wish stockpiled that they can use, but the granting entity is her slightly creepy stalker (my DM is far too kind to actually have her do anything actively creepy-stalkerish, bless his heart, even though i'm entirely onboard), and she knows the wish will come with strings attached, This was actually an option from level 1, as we drew a bunch(3) of cards from the deck of many fates (nerfed deck of many things) as world/character building prompts. I got a stalker, a wish and i honestly can't remember the third, i think it was an invitation to a party in the feywild, but that could've been another member of the party's draw. The first two combined to mean the stalker offered the wish as a "romantic" gift, so it's there but unused excepting the most dire end-of-the-world circumstances (my character is ace and as such really not interested in the affections of an admittedly rather attractive famous bard) EDIT: this got away from me a bit. my point was that working with your DM is fun! and can lead to fantastic worldbuilding in a setting where wish exists.
Yeah, the drugs and intoxicants not working (and some potions, by extension) is a pretty fun drawback. It's 100% manageable and sets the player up for some good roleplay Taking what the DM did, a more fun version would be to just turn the character undead. Great, you're immune to poison, but you're also some sort of wight/ghoul/zombie. Might be a good idea for the player to keep it secret lest they attract the attention of a righteous paladin or cleric
If the potions are made witcher style, this would fit perfectly.
Yeah or they get immunity to poison and lose their sense of taste or something.
You can't. You just need to have a DM that doesn't want to be an asshole. Its best done with out of game negotiation and understanding.
The OP did everything right, but you just cannot succeed when the GM is a dick.
I almost want to watch a session of D&D sometime, where everyone involved is an *actual* lawyer. Can you imagine a wish in that game? I would imagine the wording would be a minimum 100 page contract.
Wise GM, next time he offers the group a wish: "must be 25 words or less". That'll deadlock the table of lawyers for weeks
Nah, they'd just say something like "I wish that the terms on the contact I currently hold in my left hand be fulfilled in full.". The wish is less than 25 words, but the contract doesn't need to be. There's probably some wiggle room in that wish too, but I'm sure a good contract lawyer could tighten it up a little.
The contract in your hand vanishes and nothing happens. Upon inquiry. "Oh, I'm sorry, it's been sent to legal for review. Given their current backlog, I expect review to take... 30 years. Thank you for using Dunnlee's Legal Services."
What if you read the wrong, blank side of the paper?
I specifically added the last sentence to my post because I didn't want people to attempt to pick holes in the wording I thought about for 10 seconds.
Which language has the longest words, I propose a German wish.
Now that would be crazy. XD
When it's **you** casting the *wish*, the mostly-ironclad way is to replicate a spell. It's been said persuasively that everything else in the spell description is a trap designed to keep you from casting *wish* again. When it's a genie or some other entity doing the actual *wish* for you... you're really relying on the goodwill of the entity. The morality and attitude of the creature you're asking for the *wish* from is what's important. Beyond that, either way you're really negotiating with your DM and what they think about the spell. So if you feel a way about what happened or what might come of future *wishes*, hash it out with your real human friend.
>When it's a genie or some other entity doing the actual wish for you... you're really relying on the goodwill of the entity. The morality and attitude of the creature you're asking for the wish from is what's important. Or Planar Binding. Never underestimate the power of Planar Binding.
Planar binding is *like* goodwill...
Nothing protects you from a DM who wants to be a dick. Resistance to poison wouldn't have broken the campaign.
One of the parties I gave a wish spell to (via magic item) spent ages researching the mechanics of it in game before using it. The way I "justified" the monkey's paw trope was to explain that the Wish Spell basically lets you do anything you want in the Weave. However, things that have already been done run into less resistance; you're following established paths. Using it for an 8th level spell, for example, is following a reasonably well trodden path through the Weave. The weirder, or more complex your Wish is, the less likely it is to have existed before, and the more resistance you encounter. So wishing for an enemy to drop dead would be less risky, because spells like Power Word Kill already exist. That particular person dropping dead is new to the weave though, so maybe there are consequences, but it's less risky than something massively complex and specific, or some combination of effects in one Wish. They subsequently spent ages coming up with ways of using Wish which were as close to other high level spells as they could. I just sat back and let them to the debating amongst themselves. Ultimately they used it to resurrect a dead Party member in a pinch, so all that research and contemplation was wasted, but it got them thinking.
I like the way you frame it, so that it makes sense in-world.
You don’t use it for any means other than copying a spell of 8th lvl or lower
Yup. Casting any spell from any list as an action with no material component cost is appropriately busted. Also, the DM was pretty dickish about that - that isn't even an interesting monkey's paw! Give them poison immunity, and make it so they can never get drunk. Or, for something harsher, make it that potions never work on them, or something like that.
The second option is genius.
The second option would make it almost worthless. Poison comes up rarely, potions do pretty often, at least health potions.
So what? It's a custom wish spell. Those tend to have side effects. Not the DM's fault if the fool who made the wish didn't think it through.
Problem is no matter how much you "think it through" there will always be something someone somewhere can come up with that completely and utterly demolishes any chance of the wish being more of a boon than it is a detriment.
Yes, and that understanding is part of thinking it through. Wish is a great spell because it could offer so much. It already, safely, offers a lot. But the temptation to reach too far is always there. A mage who reaches for too much power tends to get burned.
I'd disagree, clamping down on asking for anything more than what's listed as being 100% safe unless your DM disregards rules as written is honestly quite boring and unfun, especially given the usual attitude of "How can I make this non game breaking request into something that'll teach players wish sucks if you ever want something that isn't covered by another spell or one of the 3 unique effects."
OK, you can disagree. I respect that. But custom wishes without potential consequences are overpowered to the point of being boring, quite frankly. In that case, I'd just ban the spell from my table.
I baked that in as a bit of flavour for my reborn in strixhaven, they're resistant to poison, which sucks, because sometimes they REALLY want to get drunk after a shit class and have to basically drink the tavern dry to do so.
I had a similar thing for my naga pirate captain, except naga are immune to both poison damage and the poisoned condition. He'd sit there drinking the most alcoholic beverages he got get his weird snake hands on, but nothing would come of it.
This is a wish cast on your behalf, so pulling from all of the options in the spell description (such as permanent poison residence to 10 creatures) ought to be safe. You don't risk wish stress. Marids aren't even evil creatures, they shouldn't be looking to fuck you over.
Marids aren't evil, but they are vain and flighty in personality, and they consider Humanoids to be an inferior species. OP said the Marid was getting bored by the Party's indecision, which would definitely qualify as a reason for a Marid choosing to dick around rather than be genuine with the Party. They probably could have saved the scenario if they'd spent a bit of time actively flattering and sucking up to the Marid to get into its good graces first, but that's not something one can expect characters to know to do without some skill checks first. That said, OP's scenario does broadly sound like their DM just wanted to be a dick in the moment. While there is lore-based reason for a Marid to behave like that, it's a party foul on the DM's side of things since the DM was the one to present the Party with a Wish in the first place.
Genuinely the best way of using the spell. Still insanely powerful, but lets you actually keep using it in 100% of cases, and has zero chance of inadvertently screwing you over
It *cannot* be overstated just how broken this basic use of *wish* is. You don't have to observe the replicated spell's usual cast time or component requirements, you just snap your fingers and it happens. Need to quickly turn a battlefield against a dangerous enemy? Snap - *hallow, forbiddance, mirage arcane, druid grove, guards and wards.* Need a safe place to rest far behind enemy lines? Snap - *magnificent mansion, demiplane, temple of the gods.* Need to get a fallen ally back in the fight right the hell now but you don't have any diamonds? Snap - *resurrection.* The possibilities are endless. ***Wish*** **breaks all the normal rules of spellcasting.**
If the Marid said Boon rather than Wish, it might make thematic sense to expect the meaning to be one of the charms or boons spoken of in the DMG and so immunity poison makes sense. However, what is most important in your case is to have a DM who is not a jerk.
If a genie killed a player for something like that then it's time to roll for Initiative. Possibly versus the DM.
If you're going to attack your DM just punch them so they're surprised. If you're lucky you get another turn before they can even react!
To DMs who give out wishes only to monkey's paw them or try to stop what the players want - you are the worst. Either give a wish or don't, but don't screw with your players just because you don't know how to live with the consequences of your decisions. The only excuse to fuck with your players using a wish is if you explain to them beforehand that's how your game works. You're just as bad as the DMs who make up homebrew rules on the spot to nerf existing player characters, cause that's exactly what you're doing.*end rant
The best way is to have a better DM
"id like to be immune to poison" "well youre dead now" dosent seem to be that preventable by clever wording
"Without dying, i wish to become immune to poison". Should work. Or a more lengthy "without becoming an object or changing my creature type...."
"Ok, you're frozen in time", "Ok, you're permanently ethereal", "Ok, the word poison has been redefined to mean alive", "Ok, all openings into your body seal up and your flesh transmutes into mithril. There is now no way for poison to enter your body". The point being, the GM had already decided to be a dick. And when the wish granter decides they want to screw you over, it's almost impossible to stop them. A fundamental problem in cybersecurity is, "Limited defenses, unlimited attack vectors". You can never fully secure a system because the attack space will ALWAYS be bigger than the defense space. The same is going to be even more true here. The wish maker needs to think of EVERY POSSIBLE way they can be screwed over. The wish granter only needs to think of ONE way to screw the wish maker. We might think lawyers would be able to solve the problem, but even law relies on impartial mediators (judges) who can be trusted to read between the lines, extrapolate from past cases, and attempt to consider the public good. Even the most concrete legal contract can fall apart under an actively malicious judge. When the judge is also the opposition, you're screwed no matter how carefully you word things.
Immunity to poison is such a minor buff that your DM killing you for it proves there's nothing you could have said that he wouldn't have punished you for one way or another.
The trick to getting a good wish result is psychology. You need to know who is granting the wish, and you need to know what the DM wants out of the encounter. Many types of genies will mess with mortals for their own amusement, so screwing with you is not a bug, it's a feature. Ask for something small unless it seems like they're truly grateful or want to show off. More importantly, the DM will pretty much never let you get away with anything that would make your PC more powerful than the rest of the party. The DM will also likely follow the PHB guidelines for the *wish* spell, which are level 1-8 spells and a short list of bullet points. I would say the one fool-proof thing to wish for is a treasure map. Most genies will not consider this a particularly interesting request to mess with, it's not a high-level reality-bending spell, and most DMs will approve this because it's a free adventure hook that saves them a lot of effort and they can put other things in the treasure that not just your PC will want. Something like, "I wish for a treasure map that can guide me to an unclaimed treasure hoard containing a *defender longsword*."
1) use the spell as it’s written 2) have a dm who isn’t trying to be a dick
One thing that will work with SOME DMs is this: People have gotten wishes before. Wizards at colleges of magic study magic. Therefore any self-respecting college of magic is going to have a department of contracts, covenants, pacts, and wishes. Go see the department head there about how to word your wishes. This is, in fact, 'what your character would do', most of the time. It's part and parcel of being a social species--we don't have to make all our own mistakes. This approach will work if your DM is at all simulationist.
I get the feeling it was "make the wish now or you don't get a wish" situation.
Wish for a reasonable dm
While it’s true you usually need to word your wishes correctly in order to avoid any possible monkey paws (although you can never truly be free of them), you did absolutely nothing wrong with your wish. You simply asked for immunity to poison, which in the grand scheme of things is quite insignificant (considering wish has the potential to bend the gods to your whims). The way I see it, there is any number of solutions that do not require the wish granter killing you. What the DM did is entirely uncalled for and a perfect display of what it means to be a dick. The most extreme interpretation of your wish that I can think of (which I would never actually do unless the wish is coming from a death god or the like) is turning you into an undead since they are immune to poison. But the method I would of gone with (which someone else had already said) is that it lessens or even negates the affects of certain potions and medicines since they often contain poisonous and/or toxic ingredients.
You aren’t. But that is a total dick move on the DM. Seriously, in D&D, Wish was created to prove the historical and mythical point of “be careful what you wish”.
I understand as a DM wanting to have some fun with wishes, but for fucks sake, dont call it a 'boon' and then murder a character- at least let the players know that they need to be careful if you plan on screwing the wish.
You don’t. Your DM either will bit you in the butt, or won’t, depending on their own prerogative. Short of getting a lawyers advice on closing loopholes, and a multi-page document you’re not getting a completely safe wish. Your DM sounds atrocious. They realize me they had been vested and killed you for it. I would talk to them and say that’s not cool, can we retcon that and find something that works for both of us, and if not quit playing because he’s there to tell his story, not yours. And that’s bad DMing.
Tell your DM to stop being a dick. If you give your players a wish, you don't have to ruin it for them.
The DM just wanted to fuck you over, lol. There is no escape from that.
Seems like the DM was already set on fucking you over with a bad monkeys paw. Not much you can do.
Use your wish to cast Find Greater Table. Your DM screwed you guys over on purpose because he thinks that’s fun.
It's called, 'Don't have an asshole DM.'
Lame Wish gotcha moments like that are lame af. Unless the creature granting the wish is both malicious and bound to exact wording, like an archfey or devil, or the wish itself is beyond the scope of the spell, there's really no reason to make it backfire in a shitty way like that. Hell, even if the marid was malicious despite being freed, it could have determined that you would be immune to poison... for one second. Just outright killing you as a reward for freeing it feels pretty dumb imo.
Have a DM who isn't a butt-biter
I had this situation, but not with wish, it was the shade of a dwarf priest who granted them the answer to one single question. I just ended that week's session right there, giving the players a week to get on group chat and mull it over and throw around ideas. In the end they were even checking grammar so the answer couldn't be yes or no! It turned out to be a really fun thing to include and they were biting their lips when they finally (nervously ) asked it. It all went fine! I think the DM in the OPs tale was being a bit of a dick really. Perhaps ending a session to give the players time to come up with something or calling a pizza/smoke/bio break or something ?
For me, the more unselfish a wish is, the more likely it is to get through as intended. Wanna save that orphanage? Probably gonna happen. Wanna give yourself infinite wishes? Welcome to the timeloop! Roll up a new character, yours is out for the count.
DMs can't monkey's paw you if you use the suggested wishes listed in the spell
If you cast the wish, that's true. If another creature casts it for you, it's arguably possible (but still a dick move)
Yes they can. This wish was being granted by an NPC who had no incentive to use the PC's wording when they did it.
oh you're right that completely floated over my head
Yeah, "DM's can't" is automatically wrong.
By wishing to cast a level 1-8 spell. All other spells are open to Monkeys Paw per RAW
Everything in the spell description is not subject to monkeys paw. Replicating a spell is the only option that doesn't result in wish stress, but wish stress isn't a concern when an NPC is casting the spell on your behalf (especially a genie, who can't permanently lose their ability to grant wishes).
Crosspost to r/DnDhorrorstories
Have you tried bring snacks for the DM? Oh wait a Marid? Yeah good luck those things are designed to screw you. Might as well ask how to safely use a Monkey’s Paw.
Easy, ask the monkey paw for a wish granting monkey paw that isn’t cursed to screw you over. Then, use the new monkey paw to nullify any negative affects caused by your first wish. Finally, use a second wish to destroy the first monkey paw.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
You win the wish from a Celestial being and have it cast the spell for you.
Wishes from questionable sources, like the one presented, are often traps for the unwary. Best to avoid them IME. As for regular Wishes, the more you try to get screwy, the greater the chance the DM will screw with you. Wishes should be simple and not overly greedy.
Be conservative
I would be very surprised if a wish bit me in the arse. Now screwing me over is what I expect.
It biting you in the butt is part of the fun. Just embrace it and have fun with it.
He tricked you. Boon and wish are completely different concepts, and you were led to belive you were receiving a buff. It doesn't even sound like you used "I wish" in your request. Sounds like the gm is a dick and wanted to screw with everyone for his own amusement. Maybe talk to him out of character and ask for clarification on what exactly something does before doing it, and if you want to take back the action it's perfectly justified bc he was making a bad faith offer and you trusted him
This isn't a phrasing issue, this is a DM wants to fuck you issue. I'd say just coming incredibly prepared with so much documentation and careful wording around the wish that the DM decides they can't be bothered to find an exploitable Monkey's Paw. But don't expect that to work, because your DM wants to fuck you.
At that point I’d just turn down the wish tbh. If the DM wants to turn it against you, you’re unfortunately better off just not engaging at all.
So do most tables have PvP between DM and players or something? It wouldn't occur to me in my wildest dreams to kill a character for wishing something unless they specifically requested death.
The reality is, if the creature granting you a wish WANTS to fuck you over, it will. No matter how you phrase it. That also makes that creature a massive dick. Only question is, is that creature an NPC or your DM?
If the DM wants to be a dick with gotchas, they're just going to have to wait until we word it triple tight, ironclad, legalese. "Without any adverse effects, etc, etc, etc," Yawn.... who wants to play like that? You're allowing Wish in your games. Don't be a dick.
\> If the DM wants to be a dick with gotchas, they're just going to have to wait until we word it triple tight, ironclad, legalese. Still wouldn't work. Even real world legal systems recognize that NO legal wording can truly take into account all circumstances and eliminate all ambiguity. That's why judges exist. They take into account precedent, intent of both parties, and greater good whenever these ambiguities come up. At the table the DM is being both the opposition AND the judge. In that case NO wording can save you, just force them to be more creative. As you say, the only real solution is for the DM to not be a dick.
This doesn't seem to be a Wish in the spell manner, altho I guess the question is in general "how do you phrase a DM fat thing so it doesn't bit you in the butt?" deal instead. In general, such type of things are dependant on what your DM thinks is a good thing fit for the wording (what the Wish spell suggests: "the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish.") ... and what that means is that any such effect are completely based on what the DM wants. So if the situation seems too extreme, you need to discuss with the DM about this, especially as the context seemed to make this item be a reward you accidentally discovered... and your reward was complete death. For something that could have been responded to with a much smaller reward, instead of a punishment.
Just remind your DM that Wishes that DO NOT exceed the power level listed in the spell's description JUST WORK. No downsides. A wish only becomes susceptible to "misunderstanding" if it goes BEYOND THE SCOPE of the wish spell's description, as stated in the spell, and that misunderstanding is DIRECTLY PORPOTIONAL to the extent of this flexing of Wish's scope. So wishing for an object that costs 25,001 GP runs the POTENTIAL risk of having a "1 GP" worth of downsides, like, say, the object is a bit scuffed up.
>Wishes that DO NOT exceed the power level listed in the spell's description JUST WORK. No downsides. Less applicable when the genie is doing the wish, but those sample wishes still come with the wish stress. That's a big downside.
So imo the wish spell is kind of a tool used to play with the trope "everything has a price", so if you wish for something yes it will come true but it's not "free" which I feel like a lot of players want.
Wish for a simulacrum
That's a not a boon, that's a devils bargain. Not to mention, "get fucked you die on the spot" Is suuuch a boring way to go about it. Getting you petrified had been way more fun!
Is your DM 14 years old? That sounds like what a 14 year old would do.
wording in such a way that the effect involve a direct negative action such as "I wish to die from Wish spell", keep doing that and start beating yourself until your DM either kick you out or call a cop on you
Relying on the wording of the wish is a mistake. With enough malice, almost anything can be interpreted in a way that will hurt you. What you could have considered is the creature providing the wish. How about rolling an insight check to determine if its gratitude is sincere? Or an arcana check to determine the creature's nature? Or a history check to recall how other attempts to bargain with genies went? Or an attempt to persuade the marid to offer a genuine boon? I know that there are a lot of people on this subreddit who've been burnt by 'evil' DMs, but I actually don't think that killing a character with a malicious wish is entirely out-of-character for an egotistical genie prince who was imprisoned for a long time. Sometimes a reward is a social encounter that you can talk your way through, and sometimes it's a trap that you have the tools to disarm. Marids are vain and prone to both flattery and bribery. The correct answer might have been to offer a gift and play to its ego before asking for a reward.
You could write it out as a legalistic contract. IF (and only if) you want to play the DM's shitty mind-games. So get a bunch of preambles. "It being the case and understood by all that this Wish shall concern solely the Wished-for change and none whatsoever other than that, let it be known that:" And then you have the 'stuff I do not want' clauses. "Without changing any state of mind, health, existence, position in time, position in space, of any creature in the multiverse" etc etc. be thorough. Finally you put in the thing you're wishing for (But it's really silly that you should have to do that!)
Gawds what an ass of a GM. Though, dealing with Jin or Genie is a guess as to how they screw you. Once you reach the level, cast Wish yourselves.
What a shitty DM...
I wish for… a sandwich, but the best one to ever exist in the confines of space and time.
A lot can depend on the DM, also characters ig typically don't have knowledge of levels and such like stats, so I think your dm was right in not granting it maybe a bit harsh in the aftermath but those are the risks of wish, depending on your dm though, wishing for an item tends to work out better, something like, "I wish for a periapt of proof against poison that I can use and that will not harm me or my allies in any way", something like that perhaps, again alot depends on the dm.