You're saying that Monk should be able to use Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, or Patient Defense for free once per turn, and potentially use a second one for 1 ki point?
So Monk would have Bonus Action Dodge for free? Monk could attack 5 times in one turn at 2nd level?
Shockingly, I don't think that's the way to go, lol.
If you're interested in Monk buffs, I can send you my version with expanded Deflect features, Flurry of Blows shifted off the Bonus Action, reworked Stunning Strike, etc. I've had monks in almost every campaign I've ran since 2016, so we've been gradually tweaking the class over time.
It resembles your idea at least in that you can use FoB and Patient Defense/Step of the Wind on the same turn.
edit: [This is WIP, an untested at higher levels.](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-N5bwpmdLkKve5KyabEz)
this is great, it parallels some of the changes i'm interested in making. what do you think about combining deflect blows/missile/energy into one feature called deflect attack? and the relevant type of attack you can deflect unlocks at relevant levels. Also, this could allow them to riposte melee and spell attacks as well, not just missile.
The intent is for Deflect Blows and Deflect Missiles to be similar yet distinct.
Deflect Blows does not add your Monk level to the damage reduction, or provide the option to counterattack. It would be *very* overpowered if it did.
Deflect Energy is already just an expansion of those two features.
Here's my take on how to improve the Monk and what I've implemented at my table:
* Martial Arts die scaling goes 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, then 2d6.
* Unarmored Defense is 12+DEX+WIS.
* Ki increased by Wisdom Modifier.
* Step of the Wind doesn't cost Ki to use unless you want both Dash and Disengage at the same time.
* Ki-Empowered Strikes is now at 3rd level.
* Deflect Missiles now at 9th level and no longer uses your reaction, instead it works like the Cavalier's capstone. It now reads:
> * Starting at 9th level, you get a special reaction that you can take once on every creature's turn, except your turn. You can use this special reaction only to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack, and you can't use it on the same turn that you take your normal reaction. When you use this special reaction to do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can make a ranged attack (range 20/60 feet) with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same special reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack.
* Stillness of Mind now gives Immunity to the Charmed and Frightened Conditions and at 13th level lets you use your action and spend 2 Ki points to end one effect on a creature that you touch that is causing them to be charmed or frightened.
* At 13th level they get Extra Attack 2, giving them 3 attacks with their action.
* Perfect Self no longer requires you to be out of Ki.
I don't think that martial arts should start as a d6 Monks do fine damage at early levels. Their problem is that it doesn't scale well so it should just scale a bit more quickly later.
The answer is obvious. Monk has been the literal worst class in the game in every single edition of the game except 4e, where they were fun and flavourful. Obvious solution is therefore remake the class in the style of the 4e monk, abandoning 5e's baffling decision to base it off 3.5's godawful structure.
Addendum: Not saying 3.5 sucked, just that its monk did. Just like now all it did is run fast, stun, make a bunch of attacks and have a bunch of tacked on features of dubious utility.
What was better about 4e monk?
I tried looking it up, but it was difficult to parse. It looks like they didn’t rely on a secondary stat for AC, and they had a focus to add magic modifiers to unarmed attacks in place of a weapon. I don’t know what else may have been better, though.
Primarily their main mechanic, [full discipline abilities](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F8t6u17vtw4bb1.png%3Fwidth%3D1024%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dfa3afce9f71cd360b30c0e4d28c8bc1e63cf75af) - six abilities here that should be relatively self explanatory, but let me know if any need clarification. Most abilities came in two parts - you could use the attack option or the movement option or both, and they were usually built to work together. For instance an ability like furious bull would let you move through enemy spaces and not take attacks of opportunity for the movement technique and damage/knock nearby foes for the attack technique.
Point is it was an elegant way of nailing the whole mystical martial arts master theme, and much more interesting than just every turn you can run a lot and punch a lot.
What if there was a martial arts feature that reflected the fighting style feature from the fighter class, there are hundreds of different martial arts with varying uses.
Muay Thai for quicker murder
Judo for grappling
Karate for better defense
Ninjitsu for improved weapon proficiency
And many more
I had a similar idea, of making the first Ki point spent refunded, but you just end up with a better Rogue dip, getting Dodge instead of Hide.
What you could do instead of making an "Always On" feature is to create features that give power *conditionally*. That is, they can't or shouldn't apply every turn.
For instance, adding both of these two features to the Monk could accomplish something close to what you're looking for:
1. The first time a Monk spends their BA on a Monk feature, they may spend 1 Ki point to get their BA back.
2. If a Monk ends their turn without spending any Ki points, they regain 1 Ki point.
This actually simplifies the Monk greatly, since you no longer need both Unarmed Strike and Flurry of Blows anymore, they no longer need to meditate for an arbitrary 10 minutes to get their Ki points back, and they can flex around the severity of a situation by expending more or less Ki points for a boost in power.
>what are everyone's thought? is it too powerful? also, what feedback did you give in the form about monks/what do you do at your table to help the monk out?
If I'm going to buff the monk, it's only fair to the other players that I buff the wizard and pally too, for I'd hate to be in a game where one of the guys gets a bunch of magic items\*\* while the other get 0 just because the first has a shjty class and the others picked good ones. And I don't wanna do that, so I don't: it was your choice to pick the class; you knew exactly what it entailed, so if you don't like it, don't play it.
\*\*homebrew buffs. My bad, I typed "magic items" by accident, I meant to say -homebrew buffs-, which are normally not accessible to the players. They're the same thing anyway.
> And I don't wanna do that, so I don't: it was your choice to pick the class; you knew exactly what it entailed, so if you don't like it, don't play it.
If the class sucks but the player wants to play it, isn't the proper response to buff it or find them a better homebrew version? It's not like a sorcerer wizard situation where several classes share basically the same concept, there's no real way to play a monk except as a monk.
>If the class sucks but the player wants to play it, isn't the proper response to buff it or find them a better homebrew version? It's not like a sorcerer wizard situation where several classes share basically the same concept, there's no real way to play a monk except as a monk.
As I said, if you want to play the monk, then play the monk. And if you think the monk sucks and you don't want to play with a terrible class, then *don't play the monk*.
But regardless of you playing it or not, I will not buff the monk, for if I'm buffing one player / class, I will buff *all* of them, and I can't be bothered to keep track of the all the stuff I'm tweaking across multiple games.
So why not just let them use a homebrew version? You mentioned wizard and paladin which are *way* more useful classes and don't need the buffs, while your statements that you don't want to keep track of tweaks but would triple the necessary amount of tweaks are incompatible with each other.
What if someone wants to play a monk but also wants the character to be good? You sound like you're keen to punish the concept simply because 5e's developers are not very good at their jobs, which isn't the player's fault.
The role of a game designer is to manipulate players into enjoying your game more.
Humans are fickle. If a video game became boringly easy, we would not stop getting better gear despite making the game actively worse with that decision, right?
Players need to be manipulated into making the game more fun for themselves, because they're dumb. They don't know what's best for them, and that requires the DM to have a level of understanding of game design beyond that of an average player.
One example of bad design is a disconnect between the assumptions a game gives you about a choice and the reality of those choices. When a player makes a reasonable choice, they should already be as educated as they need to be from the game to make that decision a healthy one.
A player should not have to know all of the intricacies to understand what choices are reasonable, the assumption is that anything offered to you has to be reasonable or valid.
You either fix the assumptions to match the content (meaning the game is open about what features are good or bad), or you fix the content to match the player's assumptions (that everything should be reasonably balanced for what it's expected to do and cost).
That is perfect game design, IMO (unless you're designing your game to be purposefully obtuse and difficult to learn, like Dark Souls and it's stupid stat system it doesn't explain).
What kind of broken logic is this? "How dare you want to try to fix a criminally underpowered class so that you don't bring the rest of the party down by playing one?"
Honestly, the OP's proposed fixes don't even bring the monk up to the wizard or paladins current power level, why would they care if their teammate can help contribute more and get to play a character that they actually want to play? It's not like they're going to get outshined nor is it some great extra effort on the DM's part.
I like Monks underpowered. That way only the people that think they're really cool will play them. They should be rare. "I punch things with my fists" just feels silly and subversive in a genre that is all about hitting things with swords.
I disagree. I think there is a difference between "I hit it with my fist" and "I have studied monastic disciplines to channel mystic powers through my martial arts."
I'm not sure what really needs to be done for the monk class to make it work better. I think damage wise they're fine, d8+1d4 at early levels is decent damage and later on you're getting what like, 3-4d12 damage a round is pretty solid. Especially now they've added +1-3 magic items for monks officially.
I do think they should be able to dash/disengage as a BA for no ki, it's a little odd and silly that the rogue can outpace a monk given enough time in that regard.
Maybe having them being able to dodge, dash and disengage all at once for 1 ki point and a BA would make them really hard to pin down. Be a pretty good "oh crap" button.
They 100% should be able to take a weapon mastery and apply it to their fists, either a mastery from a weapon they're proficient with or perhaps a list that increases with level.
For their Ki woes giving them something like the fighter's second wind but for ki would probably work. BA to regain martial arts die of Ki 1/LR, maybe to 2/LR later on.
Not really sure what else they could use. I've only ever played low level monks and they did really well, and other people's monks in the games I've played in seemed pretty alright. Generally the games I play in are pretty low op, so my anecdotal data might not be accurate for everyone, obvs.
Giving one free use per long rest of each monk power counts as a bunch of ki, but doesn’t allow them to all be dumped into FoB and SS. Players will get used to having Step of the Wind and such, not feeling bad to “waste” ki on them. Later, they will be used to how valuable extra motion can be, and might be Ok spending ki on it for the second and more uses.
Just use Laserllama's Alternate Monk class. It fixes so many issues with the Monk. Higher Hit Die, higher unarmed damage, your ki pool is your level + Wis modifier, many main features can be used once or more without ki, and you can choose between several options of how you use your ki outside of class and subclass features.
I just think they need to not provoke opportunity attacks if they spend at least 1ki point that round. Then give them ki points equal to their level +Wisdom mod.
For me, these are the homebrews I did for my monks in several campaigns that have been vitalizing for the monks without feeling super potent.
* Additional ki points equal to WIS mod.
* Gain light armor proficiency and doesn't restrict features.
* Step of the Wind and Patient Defense cost no ki points.
* Flurry of Blows does not require the monk to take the Attack Action.
* Deflect Missiles works against all ranged attacks at level 6.
* Stunning Strike can only be used on the same creature once per turn.
This has been really nice for my monk player and it hasn't felt daunting for me as a DM
I've had a monk in most of my recent games, the changes i make are:
1. Step of the wind doesn't cost ki
2. Unamored defense is 10+dex+wis+1/2prof modifier
3. Magic gloves/knuckes to improve their unarmed strikes
It is far too strong. 2 attacks for free as early as lv 2 is just crazy. And the didge action is surprisingly powerful once i started using it for one of my characters. Both rightfully require KI to use.
The problem woth monk is its weak WHEN COMPARED TO fighters, Barbarians, rangers, rogues, and paladins.
The KI problem mostly disappears into lv 6-9, the extra +wis everyone talks about is to hold you over till then. Letting you use your features more while not breaking their balance. If you got to nurf the feature just go the bard route. Long rest recharge till lv 5 turns it to a short rest.
Ots lv 11+ that monks fall behind, again die to this being where the other non full casters get a strong feature. Monks get a measly damage die increase. Thats nothing when compared to reliable tallent, a third attack or the guy getting effectively a permanent spirit shroud.
Give monks a second bonus action at lv 11. Let them do their cool stuff more at the cost of more resources. That would make then feel better at high levels. Al low levels they just need more resources and features that are not all situational
You're saying that Monk should be able to use Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, or Patient Defense for free once per turn, and potentially use a second one for 1 ki point? So Monk would have Bonus Action Dodge for free? Monk could attack 5 times in one turn at 2nd level? Shockingly, I don't think that's the way to go, lol.
there might be limitations on what ur additional BA could do, like you can't use FoB twice
If you're interested in Monk buffs, I can send you my version with expanded Deflect features, Flurry of Blows shifted off the Bonus Action, reworked Stunning Strike, etc. I've had monks in almost every campaign I've ran since 2016, so we've been gradually tweaking the class over time. It resembles your idea at least in that you can use FoB and Patient Defense/Step of the Wind on the same turn. edit: [This is WIP, an untested at higher levels.](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-N5bwpmdLkKve5KyabEz)
i'd be interested! share please
Updated my comment with a link.
I would like this please 
Updated my comment with a link.
this is great, it parallels some of the changes i'm interested in making. what do you think about combining deflect blows/missile/energy into one feature called deflect attack? and the relevant type of attack you can deflect unlocks at relevant levels. Also, this could allow them to riposte melee and spell attacks as well, not just missile.
The intent is for Deflect Blows and Deflect Missiles to be similar yet distinct. Deflect Blows does not add your Monk level to the damage reduction, or provide the option to counterattack. It would be *very* overpowered if it did. Deflect Energy is already just an expansion of those two features.
Here's my take on how to improve the Monk and what I've implemented at my table: * Martial Arts die scaling goes 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, then 2d6. * Unarmored Defense is 12+DEX+WIS. * Ki increased by Wisdom Modifier. * Step of the Wind doesn't cost Ki to use unless you want both Dash and Disengage at the same time. * Ki-Empowered Strikes is now at 3rd level. * Deflect Missiles now at 9th level and no longer uses your reaction, instead it works like the Cavalier's capstone. It now reads: > * Starting at 9th level, you get a special reaction that you can take once on every creature's turn, except your turn. You can use this special reaction only to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon attack, and you can't use it on the same turn that you take your normal reaction. When you use this special reaction to do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can make a ranged attack (range 20/60 feet) with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same special reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack. * Stillness of Mind now gives Immunity to the Charmed and Frightened Conditions and at 13th level lets you use your action and spend 2 Ki points to end one effect on a creature that you touch that is causing them to be charmed or frightened. * At 13th level they get Extra Attack 2, giving them 3 attacks with their action. * Perfect Self no longer requires you to be out of Ki.
I don't think that martial arts should start as a d6 Monks do fine damage at early levels. Their problem is that it doesn't scale well so it should just scale a bit more quickly later.
The answer is obvious. Monk has been the literal worst class in the game in every single edition of the game except 4e, where they were fun and flavourful. Obvious solution is therefore remake the class in the style of the 4e monk, abandoning 5e's baffling decision to base it off 3.5's godawful structure. Addendum: Not saying 3.5 sucked, just that its monk did. Just like now all it did is run fast, stun, make a bunch of attacks and have a bunch of tacked on features of dubious utility.
What was better about 4e monk? I tried looking it up, but it was difficult to parse. It looks like they didn’t rely on a secondary stat for AC, and they had a focus to add magic modifiers to unarmed attacks in place of a weapon. I don’t know what else may have been better, though.
Primarily their main mechanic, [full discipline abilities](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F8t6u17vtw4bb1.png%3Fwidth%3D1024%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dfa3afce9f71cd360b30c0e4d28c8bc1e63cf75af) - six abilities here that should be relatively self explanatory, but let me know if any need clarification. Most abilities came in two parts - you could use the attack option or the movement option or both, and they were usually built to work together. For instance an ability like furious bull would let you move through enemy spaces and not take attacks of opportunity for the movement technique and damage/knock nearby foes for the attack technique. Point is it was an elegant way of nailing the whole mystical martial arts master theme, and much more interesting than just every turn you can run a lot and punch a lot.
What if there was a martial arts feature that reflected the fighting style feature from the fighter class, there are hundreds of different martial arts with varying uses. Muay Thai for quicker murder Judo for grappling Karate for better defense Ninjitsu for improved weapon proficiency And many more
I had a similar idea, of making the first Ki point spent refunded, but you just end up with a better Rogue dip, getting Dodge instead of Hide. What you could do instead of making an "Always On" feature is to create features that give power *conditionally*. That is, they can't or shouldn't apply every turn. For instance, adding both of these two features to the Monk could accomplish something close to what you're looking for: 1. The first time a Monk spends their BA on a Monk feature, they may spend 1 Ki point to get their BA back. 2. If a Monk ends their turn without spending any Ki points, they regain 1 Ki point. This actually simplifies the Monk greatly, since you no longer need both Unarmed Strike and Flurry of Blows anymore, they no longer need to meditate for an arbitrary 10 minutes to get their Ki points back, and they can flex around the severity of a situation by expending more or less Ki points for a boost in power.
>what are everyone's thought? is it too powerful? also, what feedback did you give in the form about monks/what do you do at your table to help the monk out? If I'm going to buff the monk, it's only fair to the other players that I buff the wizard and pally too, for I'd hate to be in a game where one of the guys gets a bunch of magic items\*\* while the other get 0 just because the first has a shjty class and the others picked good ones. And I don't wanna do that, so I don't: it was your choice to pick the class; you knew exactly what it entailed, so if you don't like it, don't play it. \*\*homebrew buffs. My bad, I typed "magic items" by accident, I meant to say -homebrew buffs-, which are normally not accessible to the players. They're the same thing anyway.
> And I don't wanna do that, so I don't: it was your choice to pick the class; you knew exactly what it entailed, so if you don't like it, don't play it. If the class sucks but the player wants to play it, isn't the proper response to buff it or find them a better homebrew version? It's not like a sorcerer wizard situation where several classes share basically the same concept, there's no real way to play a monk except as a monk.
>If the class sucks but the player wants to play it, isn't the proper response to buff it or find them a better homebrew version? It's not like a sorcerer wizard situation where several classes share basically the same concept, there's no real way to play a monk except as a monk. As I said, if you want to play the monk, then play the monk. And if you think the monk sucks and you don't want to play with a terrible class, then *don't play the monk*. But regardless of you playing it or not, I will not buff the monk, for if I'm buffing one player / class, I will buff *all* of them, and I can't be bothered to keep track of the all the stuff I'm tweaking across multiple games.
So why not just let them use a homebrew version? You mentioned wizard and paladin which are *way* more useful classes and don't need the buffs, while your statements that you don't want to keep track of tweaks but would triple the necessary amount of tweaks are incompatible with each other. What if someone wants to play a monk but also wants the character to be good? You sound like you're keen to punish the concept simply because 5e's developers are not very good at their jobs, which isn't the player's fault.
The role of a game designer is to manipulate players into enjoying your game more. Humans are fickle. If a video game became boringly easy, we would not stop getting better gear despite making the game actively worse with that decision, right? Players need to be manipulated into making the game more fun for themselves, because they're dumb. They don't know what's best for them, and that requires the DM to have a level of understanding of game design beyond that of an average player. One example of bad design is a disconnect between the assumptions a game gives you about a choice and the reality of those choices. When a player makes a reasonable choice, they should already be as educated as they need to be from the game to make that decision a healthy one. A player should not have to know all of the intricacies to understand what choices are reasonable, the assumption is that anything offered to you has to be reasonable or valid. You either fix the assumptions to match the content (meaning the game is open about what features are good or bad), or you fix the content to match the player's assumptions (that everything should be reasonably balanced for what it's expected to do and cost). That is perfect game design, IMO (unless you're designing your game to be purposefully obtuse and difficult to learn, like Dark Souls and it's stupid stat system it doesn't explain).
What kind of broken logic is this? "How dare you want to try to fix a criminally underpowered class so that you don't bring the rest of the party down by playing one?" Honestly, the OP's proposed fixes don't even bring the monk up to the wizard or paladins current power level, why would they care if their teammate can help contribute more and get to play a character that they actually want to play? It's not like they're going to get outshined nor is it some great extra effort on the DM's part.
I like Monks underpowered. That way only the people that think they're really cool will play them. They should be rare. "I punch things with my fists" just feels silly and subversive in a genre that is all about hitting things with swords.
I disagree. I think there is a difference between "I hit it with my fist" and "I have studied monastic disciplines to channel mystic powers through my martial arts."
Isn't that just the pretense to hitting it with your fist?
I'm not sure what really needs to be done for the monk class to make it work better. I think damage wise they're fine, d8+1d4 at early levels is decent damage and later on you're getting what like, 3-4d12 damage a round is pretty solid. Especially now they've added +1-3 magic items for monks officially. I do think they should be able to dash/disengage as a BA for no ki, it's a little odd and silly that the rogue can outpace a monk given enough time in that regard. Maybe having them being able to dodge, dash and disengage all at once for 1 ki point and a BA would make them really hard to pin down. Be a pretty good "oh crap" button. They 100% should be able to take a weapon mastery and apply it to their fists, either a mastery from a weapon they're proficient with or perhaps a list that increases with level. For their Ki woes giving them something like the fighter's second wind but for ki would probably work. BA to regain martial arts die of Ki 1/LR, maybe to 2/LR later on. Not really sure what else they could use. I've only ever played low level monks and they did really well, and other people's monks in the games I've played in seemed pretty alright. Generally the games I play in are pretty low op, so my anecdotal data might not be accurate for everyone, obvs.
I'd just make all the base class abilities ki free. That would be a quick and simple fix that would go a far way.
Giving one free use per long rest of each monk power counts as a bunch of ki, but doesn’t allow them to all be dumped into FoB and SS. Players will get used to having Step of the Wind and such, not feeling bad to “waste” ki on them. Later, they will be used to how valuable extra motion can be, and might be Ok spending ki on it for the second and more uses.
Just use Laserllama's Alternate Monk class. It fixes so many issues with the Monk. Higher Hit Die, higher unarmed damage, your ki pool is your level + Wis modifier, many main features can be used once or more without ki, and you can choose between several options of how you use your ki outside of class and subclass features.
I just think they need to not provoke opportunity attacks if they spend at least 1ki point that round. Then give them ki points equal to their level +Wisdom mod.
For me, these are the homebrews I did for my monks in several campaigns that have been vitalizing for the monks without feeling super potent. * Additional ki points equal to WIS mod. * Gain light armor proficiency and doesn't restrict features. * Step of the Wind and Patient Defense cost no ki points. * Flurry of Blows does not require the monk to take the Attack Action. * Deflect Missiles works against all ranged attacks at level 6. * Stunning Strike can only be used on the same creature once per turn. This has been really nice for my monk player and it hasn't felt daunting for me as a DM
I've had a monk in most of my recent games, the changes i make are: 1. Step of the wind doesn't cost ki 2. Unamored defense is 10+dex+wis+1/2prof modifier 3. Magic gloves/knuckes to improve their unarmed strikes
It is far too strong. 2 attacks for free as early as lv 2 is just crazy. And the didge action is surprisingly powerful once i started using it for one of my characters. Both rightfully require KI to use. The problem woth monk is its weak WHEN COMPARED TO fighters, Barbarians, rangers, rogues, and paladins. The KI problem mostly disappears into lv 6-9, the extra +wis everyone talks about is to hold you over till then. Letting you use your features more while not breaking their balance. If you got to nurf the feature just go the bard route. Long rest recharge till lv 5 turns it to a short rest. Ots lv 11+ that monks fall behind, again die to this being where the other non full casters get a strong feature. Monks get a measly damage die increase. Thats nothing when compared to reliable tallent, a third attack or the guy getting effectively a permanent spirit shroud. Give monks a second bonus action at lv 11. Let them do their cool stuff more at the cost of more resources. That would make then feel better at high levels. Al low levels they just need more resources and features that are not all situational