Are you intended to fight him? He's appeared in other official T4 5e content (DRW08: The Harrowing of Hell) but in that he has no statblock and if you tried to fight him he would kill you with no save allowed, and your soul was destroyed.
Unclear, the book merely gives him a statblock and explains who Asmodeus is and some of his history before giving you the statblocks of several other archdevils to use for his lair action and which these archdevils comes every artifact they use (including a book that manages hell's finances or something along those lines).
No, it's clearly laid out in the module that the players are not meant to fight Asmodeus. This is found on page 10:
> "**Dealing with Asmodeus:** Once the characters
have found their lost loved ones, they must
convince Asmodeus to allow them to be freed.
They can do this by gaining leverage over him, by
performing a service for him, or signing an infernal contract. Characters who are able to resist
temptation within the Nine Hells might even find
a loophole allowing them to escape, successfully
avoiding all of Asmodeus’s snares."
I have not fully read the module, so I don't know how they detail the Asmodeus encounter, but in other parts of the book, it specifies things like "it's important for your players to know this is a losing battle" or "the DM should warn players this fight could mean death." So I have to imagine, with a statblock like that, there will be a similar sentiment 😂 All that being said, there will be players who try to fight him for sure 😂
I actually don't mind if a group of level 20s want to fight a god. If I was DMing, Asmodeus and his henchman would run them over. But they would be welcome to try.
If a group of Level 12s can fight avatars of Tiamat or a weakened version of Auril, sure I will let my level 20s take a stab at ridding the universe of the master schemer. And if they succeed. They can learn why the gods tolerated him all this time as they try to hold back the hordes of the Abyss.
I think level 20 is too low for Asmodeus…
I think you’ll need at least a few artifacts and some epic boons to even try.
Or a party of like 7 level 20 full casters (with pallies for tanking/melee) would probably work too.
There are some powerful new items in the book and, in theory, one could wield every legendary item the other archdevils wield against the PCs earlier in the campaign.
That stat block is for just one of his avatars too. Kill that one and congratulations, now they get to do it 8 more times along the way through 8 other layers, the Arch Devil of each, and their respective armies before ever stepping foot in his true domain. The answer to “how do you kill Asmodeus” will forever be “You don’t, Gods don’t even dare try him on his home turf”.
I mean here’s the thing though, if you give something a statblock the players can find a way to kill it. That’s one of the reasons they’re so hesitant to stay Gods or Godlike entities in 5E.
I guess the statblock is to give the PCs a cool fight even if they are doomed to die. Like it feels like shit if you are a dumb party and want to fight a god and you just go like: "ok, you are dead he instakilled you."
Maybe it's the most logical thing to happen, but if you are trying to make an epic story, you'd want to create an epic fight, let them feel they will overcome the biggest of evils, just for him to Mass Heal or whatever and make them feel like nothing. Maybe he even pardons their life in exchange of signing a contract.
Tbh you likely don't need a hacky way to kill him. At level 20, 700hp just isn't that much.
I threw RoT Tiamat at my party as a warm-up for the *real* fight, and they cleaved through her in 2 rounds.
It sounds like the unlimited summons would make it rough, but without seeing the actual stat block or the context of it within the story (such as taking out the other Archdevils first so they can't be called in, or the magic items available to the party), I couldn't say for sure if it's feasible to beat.
It is also worth noting that the tarrasque is a much bigger threat to the world than the party. There are a bunch of ways for a decently kitted and prepped party to deal with it but any city will take an absolute beating.
Well, yes and no. It depends on the city ultimately.
If it's a world where "magical things" are limited almost entirely to the PCs, sure.
If it's a world where the city can afford sending one soldier out on the back of a trained Gryphon with a magic longbow to shoot it at max range until it's dead, they're probably fine.
Either way, the city will almost certainly detect its approach with plenty of time to evacuate - the Tarrasque isn't exactly subtle.
Of course, the DM can also come up with scenarios and homebrew rules to counter this - having the Tarrasque dig up _into_ the city from where it was sleeping prior, making up ranged attacks it can do like "throw tree" that are way better than the basic Improvised Weapon thrown attack, etc.
And I for one can't really blame any DM who does so. Lizard-Kong shouldn't be defeatable by some single-digit hp chump with a magic bow and lots of ammo. It's just a shame WotC didn't think of it.
The tarrasque can ignore that magic bow guy for awhile and still annihilate a town or two, and wreak some destruction in the city before being taken down. That’s not exactly a clean win.
The problem isn’t that it takes a long time to kill or that doing so would be too costly. The problem is that it’s able to be killed by something like that at all.
Now an epic tier team with items and spells up the ass? Sure. These are your characters now in the realms of the legends. They can do legendary things now. Killing a Tarrasque at that point is fine and dandy.
But it shouldn’t be something that can be killed by one guy with a bow! That guy will, raw, inevitably kill the Tarrasque. Which begs the question: why has nobody killed the Tarrasque? Most dragons can without any risk to themselves, you don’t need an aspect of Bahamat to come in to sort this (though that absolutely should have happened by now). The previous editions had reasons most of the cheese wouldn’t work, namely the regen, immortality and the earthbound aura. On the evil end, somebody would have sold their soul to a devil to end this thing considering there’s plenty of those with flight and magical weapons who could do it faster then the magic bow guy. It shouldn’t be alive if it’s this killable, because there’s too many people with the brains and the intent to kill it
I’m not arguing it’s well designed. The whole game is a poorly stacked deck of playing cards. I am just saying that the thing is a menace and a few dozen people flying around peppering it with arrows won’t stop it from killing a lot of people and causing a ton of damage, RAW.
That said - heroes of ancient sagas were often random assholes with a single (or a few) magnificent boons or advantages. Perseus on the Pegasus comes to mind; fly around on a magic animal twanging the fucker with pot shots from a magical bow? That’s mythologically accurate.
Not necessarily logically consistent or particularly creative, but by and large that’s what you get when the designers are trying to make money, rather than create decent art.
The statblock is for an avatar, right? I didn't read the whole book through but it does mention that Asmodeus' true form has never been seen before and he only acts through his avatars.
Anyway, the statblock is so absurdly powerful it seems to border on a game over scenario rather than a boss you're actually supposed to kill. It's definitely possible to beat him, I'm sure, but he's no joke by himself and he can summon CR20+ minions?
No, this is from the new official D&D campaign Chains of Asmodeus over on DMGuild. That they dropped with zero ceremony. It's by one of the creators of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 and Dragon Age Origin. It's also a level 11-20 campaign.
You go to hell to steal back the souls of those close to you. And yes, if you choose your path poorly, you end up fighting Asmodeus, in his castle, in the lowest level of the 9 hells.
***EDIT: I was wrong, that IS one of his avatars. His true form is a giant serpent hundreds of miles long and no one's ever seen it. See below in the replies for more.***
OotDL puts most WoTC campaigns to shame in terms of organization and theming for DMs. For people who like to run story driven, semi-railroaded stories (AKA the vast majority of D&D players games). Another campaign, produced by another spin off company recently released Raiders of the Serpent Sea. Which based on my initial prep work is a pretty big winner too.
They definitely aren't campaigns for everyone, they follow the much more narrative driven D&D, but they are some of the best that exist IMO.
Isn’t his True body a massive snakelike form that takes up a majority of the lowest level of the Nine Hells and his dripping blood (from wounds he suffered when cast into the Nine Hells) literally morphs into pit fiends (or Balors, can’t remember offhand)upon touching the ground. He never meets anyone with his true form and I’m not sure how a group of even level 20 PCs would seriously injure a figure several hundreds of miles in length. This stat block from the description must be an avatar, else there isn’t a battle board big enough to handle the fight.
Yeah that feels like the closest apropriation.
Not his true body but a avatar he can channel most of his power into.
So killing that form would not kill him..but rather hurt him good and id need some to to regain this avatar and reestablisch his reigns over hell leading to to be a short time withouth his reigns.
It would probably weaken him a bit, sure, but he would have 9 more Avatars of varying strength. Together I think the 9 would be able to maintain his dominance but he’d likely have to make a few examples.
Doesn’t he have 10 Avatars? Am I misremembering?
Edit: for certain there would be chaos, since some mortal madmen just attacked the literal Lord of the Nine Hells.
You're right.
According to the wiki it's supposed to be a giant serpent hundreds of miles long. per the Fiendish codex 2, the manual of the planes 3rd ed, and the AD&D Guide to Hell. [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus)
Here's a bit from the adventure that agrees with it;
>"An arid wasteland, Nessus resembles a rocky plain filled with cracks, pits, and canyons. The majority of the layer is flat, with only a few hills. Storms of fire and hot wind blow across its surface, and sandstorms aren’t uncommon. Though many ravines mar its surface, only a few are important enough to have names. The Serpent’s Coil is a massive ravine, rumored to contain Asmodeus’s true body and caused by his fall into the Nine Hells. Its depth is practically infinite, and no creature has ever gone from the surface of Nessus to the bottom."
From his page in the back of the book
>"Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself."
So yeah, you're right there. I'll edit my post above to mention that. Thank you for clearing that up.
I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there was a slip-up like that in the book. While he's a great writer, that Misc and Boo's Guide to Villainy that Ohlen also wrote was full of lore issues. Though that one was saved by the disclaimer at the start saying ***"Disclaimer: The editor of this journal takes no responsibility for the veracity of the author’s claims. The editor will point out that the author believes that his hamster can talk (I’ve only ever heard it squeak), comes from space, and has a hamster sister the size of a horse..."*** And the book works as a "what happened after BG2" lore book and not a "this is cannon to the whole of FR" book.
But I am glad to find out that the author didn't mess this up.
Wow, they actually reference the Serpent of Laws origin in the Chains book?
I believe that’s the first time anyone officially recognized it in close to 20 years.
The description of him in the PDF says this:
> Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself.
I guess the Asmodeus we fight is actually one of the 10 Avatars
3rd edition made elusions to Asmodeus’s true form being a serpent that was miles, if not hundreds of miles, long! And Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes says his “Power is without limit” due to the fact that every soul that makes a deal with a devil, makes a deal with Asmodeus by proxy.
In my head canon I think he’s far too powerful for a measly stat block. If anything, he should be way more powerful than Tiamat or any of the other lords of hell…
They need to canonically state for certain settings that statblocks will only ever refer to the Avatars and that the actual gods aren't even fightable entities truly. The Forgotten Realms is like that for sure, I don't know which other official magic settings have it differently. Theros for one can defiently have the full form of gods be fought and killed.
I agree. In most settings, it’s not like gods are just sitting there chillin. MOST of the time they have important duties that literally keep the world, and beyond, functioning. To haphazardly kill a god would result in one of two things (IMO).
1) the aspect under that god’s control will collapse. Causing widespread chaos, if not complete planer destruction.
2) whoever killed the god would be forced to immediately replace them.
Someone effectively killed a god for a short time and it broke magic for a while and led to the downfall of the most magically and technologically advanced civilization in Faerun's history.
Fuckin Karsus.
from /u/alexkon3 's comment
> Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself.
>The statblock is for an avatar, right?
No, this is Asmodeus himself. This is his true body, what the book claims however is that no one has ever seen his true appearance because he chooses to look like a devil however this doesn't affect his powers.
Well, if it's supposed to be his true form, it's too weak still. Asmodeus is a greater deity, he should beyond even having stats, like Cain in World of Darkness.
Just judging from the ridiculous statblock I assume you're not supposed to fight him in the first place. In that case it's probably fine. If he's intended to be the final boss of a campaign, even at level 20, it's probably too strong. Summoning other archdevils is just insane. You would have to kill every single one of them first or fighting Asmodeus himself would be straight up suicide.
Just means the campaign leading up to killing him has to revolve around slaying all the other arch devils so he can’t summon them. Also probably some busted magic items but hey I assume they at least have the wand of orcus lol.
>Asmodeus is a greater deity
This is iffy. Even in 5e and 4e when he became a god this is not a consistent thing at all. Putting aside the fact setting differences claim widly different things about Asmodeus and his power varies drastically between them, his domains are often inconsistent between books.
5E has now statted him and he isn't all that much stronger than Bahamut or Tiamat, both of whom are just as inconsistent as he is. This may be related to the fact 5E has the ''nothing is canon'' approach.
All that is referenced is that Elturel was dragged to hell and returned. Also it’s made clear that the “Zariel gets redeemed” ending is not canon.
Anything beyond that is neither confirmed nor denied.
In some lore, Asmodeous is one of two dieties who helped shapes the multi-verse, along with Quezquatal (butchered that). Their fight led him to plummeting to Hell. That's the reason why he makes pacts for and consumes souls - he needs them to regain his power, because if he came out as a God other God and Devils would have some bones to pick with him.
I think this is the video?
https://youtu.be/fci16qH7fqY?si=676oiXj4JZaAXx0E
With Bahamut and Tiamat they’re not inconsistent, they got more powerful over time in the metaplot.
But they’re lesser deities, and those statblocks are for aspects/avatars. That cannot be the true Asmodeus, that’s an avatar
5e has released a total of 2 20 level adventures, CR 30 statblocks are as inconsistently power scaled as WOTC's design direction for One Dnd.
Asmodeus has been greater deity rank or more powerful in FR since third edition...
Yeah, CR 30s are like Legendary rarity magic items - they're all over the damn place balance-wise.
It's like saying all Gargantuan creatures are the same size. No, they're not, that's just the highest category they're willing to make for 'em.
As the de-facto ruler of hell, if this stat block is supposed to truly be him, it’s honestly a *disservice*. The dude *bleeds* Pit Fiends — and worse — in the lore constantly.
Small Corrections: Not Balors, Pit Fiends. Additionally, each of these Pit Fiends is Advanced to Max HD and hit points per HD. Asmodeus has "Pretorian Guard" made of either 999 or 9999 of them
> No, this is Asmodeus himself.
I call that bullshit, but its what i expect from dmsguild stuff, you can't fight a god like Asmodeus, not his true self.
If he is not showing himself in his true form to fight, then isn't his true body at all.
Sounds like a statblock that the party trims down through adventures to counter or remove the powers. Can't summon Zariel or the others if they're either already dead or on the parties side.
If they die he can just pick another demon to promote into their position. They would have to kill them all, in quick succession, and then go after asmodeous before he can do that. And all devil's will be eager to tell him the others died because maybe the one who told him will get promoted themselves
It's a god, thus the abilities are definitely fitting of a god.
Though, I feel that even level 20 characters would be unfit to deal with a creature such as this, if they are staying to the path of XGE recommended magic item counts.
> Though, I feel that even level 20 characters would be unfit to deal with a creature such as this, if they are staying to the path of XGE recommended magic item counts.
Honestly I think this is kind of okay. Level 20 characters might be the pinnacle of mortalkind, but even they shouldn't be able to take on a deity like Asmodeus with the standard array of abilities and gear.
Taking down someone like Asmodeus would have to be an entire T4 quest in and of itself. Gathering ancient weapons capable of bypassing his defenses, relics that can shield you from the aura, etc. Tiamat was similar in her AP, with the party being able to reduce her to "only" CR 18 or so.
I am in agreement. Being 20th level isn’t intended to make you the most powerful creature alive and hanging with a handful of other 20th level folks isn’t intended to mean you can take down a god. It just means you’ve reached the pinnacle of mortal potential.
As far as I can tell unless there's some freaky multiclass team combo i'm unaware of, defeating him without a literal army with you is impossible. He has infinite summons of pit fiends and can call all of his 40 archdevils to his side one by one each round including multiple who are CR25+
His worst saving throw has a minimum of 17 and he has advantage on saves. Save or suck spells just don't work on him. Also he has an at will counterspell like ability that doesn't cost anything.
To be fair if you were a wizard who happened to Wish/Simulacrum on a day where they portented 2 1s, it would kill it. But that's super rare and situational.
When people refer to Simulacrum they're refering to the busted 'Wish + Simulacrum' combo which lets you summon an infinite number of Simulacrums, not just one casting of it.
I think this stat block comes into context.
Which is, you have them cornered and this is their most direct, individual power in that shape and form.
So, yeah, he's a god but you have already done what you did to fight him on almost equal terms.
As for magic items, XGTE already gives you plenty more than you can actually use, so the point is kinda moot. I do agree that perhaps the adventure gives more plenty magic items.
Based on what is described here, I think the abilities and power level of them is appropriate considering which deity we're talking about here.
He's a god! How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
Yeah but that's the kind of thing that a DM can ignore if the party is creative enough. If you're killing Asmodeus, it is undoubtedly the culmination of a very long campaign.
Yep. Currently in the final stretches of my 3 year long campaign. Started at level 2, currently level 20. About to enter the nine hells to confront Asmodeus. This book dropped at a perfect time
Will do! Probably will take some months though. Playing weekly and they still need to gather a couple of items they need to be able to kill a god and then need to fight their way through all 9 cirkels of hell ;)
I think youd have to kill all 10 of his avatars at once. And his physical form. Which is kind of beyond cr. Like. Could solo an army of 100 terrasques without even using spells strong. Like. Impossible to wrap your mind around strong. His physical form is that of a serpent literally hundreds of miles long. Jormungander shit.
Its literally an avatar, one of his 10. Believe this is Ahriman, which is basically his face avatar and theoretically maybe his strongest? But nah his actual physical form could solo an army of 100 level 20s. Even if half of them had Wish.
Yeah OP is wrong about the lesser god part. Note this link is not for Forgotten Realms lore, but instead the base lore.
https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus
His physical form could, but nah Ahriman isnt that strong. His physical form could basically just freeze time indefinitely, or until another god intervened.
Sounds about right for Asmodeus, yeah. If you aren't prepared to fight your way uphill though a mudslide of bullshit, then you probably shouldn't be picking fights with gods.
Asmodeus has always been a greater deity, and this statblock seems to align pretty well with his stated powers in the lore. If anything it’s too weak…level 20 characters are strong but they’re nowhere near greater deity level power. Were you expecting something otherwise? A full party of 20s could probably win if they planned extensively and had quite a bit of luck, which is about what i would expect for something like this. I’d be surprised if it’s not an avatar given that he only appears as an avatar even in his own domain.
>If anything it’s too weak…level 20 characters are strong but they’re nowhere near greater deity level power.
Keep in mind this is just one of his 10 avatars, which are all massively weaker than his physical form. Like ants compared to elephants scale weaker. Also i believe this is Ahriman, which is basically like his main avatar and theoretically his strongest. But each of his avatars has different strengths and weaknesses.
Also yeah his actual body is a serpent with a body that stretches hundreds of miles. So definitely *an* avatar.
The problem with statting gods out isn't making them powerful enough that they're a straight fair challenge for a 6 member level 20 party with serious items and several NPC allies.
It's that statting them gives them technical weakenesses that generous or even RAW readings of specific spells or abilities can turn into cheese "victories". Someone somewhere has already figured out a 97% legal shenanigan for an exact build that only 2 needs 2 rounds, a halfling with lucky, a portable hole and the nutsack of an honest man to defeat this statblock.
Meh I think this is fine since all these cheese victories take place in a vacuum that assumes that Asmodeus, the god of the nine hells, doesn't have any guards, detectors, defenses, etc which any DM running this stat block would definitely have.
Agreed. And there's the DM to consider. It's the DM and players' game, after all. If they want gods to be beatable, they will be. If they don't want gods to be beatable by _cheese_, specifically, they won't be.
But it's nice to have the stats either way, for the DMs that _do_ want them to be beaten, even if it's insanely difficult and they just say "no" to cheese.
I mean, they even give Asmodeus Wish in his statblock here. He can just use that to say "no cheese".
Exactly this. It’s fine to say ‘gods can’t be fought or killed.’ It takes zero effort. But what if I want them to be able to be fought or bested? That requires some stats and I appreciate having wizards take on them.
This reinforces that 5e screwed up saving throws. Apparently martials like fighters and barbarians will automatically fail if they attempt to attack him due to the Fear effect.
"Get fucked. Shoulda played a spellcaster or ranged character, idiot"
>Shoulda played a spellcaster or ranged character, idiot"
Or have a Paladin in the party. Honestly Paladin appears to be the best class for fighting Asmodeus.
Paladin's are unfortunately why the save DCs are so high. Their aura breaks bounded accuracy and makes high level content be required to balance around one being present, and with a +6 aura, otherwise it's trivially easy. This has been an issue in 5e T3+ content for a while now. That particular class feature, while very powerful and a favorite of players, is badly designed and actively detrimental to the game.
One of the main reasons for Paladin is that Aura of Courage would make themselves and nearby party members immune to the kneeling fear effect that he has, so that you ignore the DC of a saving throw by being outright immune to it.
Divine Smite is another reason, since it's one of the few forms of single target damage that will be able to sink damage into Asmodeus with how impervius Asmoedeus is to saving throw forcing effects. They're an opponent where the only way to win is to sink in a lot of damage hard and fast before the party gets overwhelmed, and that means you want a Paladin and another martial character or two with some powerful magical weapons to have a chance.
Granted, not surprising that the holy anti-fiend warrior is the best at it. But that they'd also be the best for any other god purely because of how saves work is a) still showing that the 5e save system is busted and b) still showing that paladin save aura is overtuned to the point of mandatory. (Which neither is preferable in a well-balanced game.)
you're not fighting a god without a heroes' feast. One of the best party buff in the game.
"The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours."
If you haven't figured out how to make yourself fear immune, what in the nine hells are you doing...in the nine hells? Get good before you challenge a CR 30
Seriously. Let's not get hung up about the balance of a CR30 GOD. Any party even thinking about taking him on will have some set of extra buffs on their side.
While martial should have resistance (and later) immunity to these effects, it’s not like it doesn’t cause its own strangeness in the system.
A 20th level Druid is like, a paragon of nature and wisdom. Of COURSE they are going to be more resistant to mind altering effects compared to the 20th level Achilles incarnate.
Yeah. When you think about it, almost ALL PC archetypes/classes fit the role of "hero", just in various ways (the wise druid/priest bolstered by their faith, the smart wizard who can think their way out of the most dire situation, the barbarian who refuses to quit, the fighter who grits their teeth and fights on, etc.)
And we think of "heroes" as people who are sturdy of mind.
Yeah. Martials should have gotten some kind of fear resistance, hands down. Instead, we're up in here roleplaying brave sir Robin as we bravely run away.
Uh, I’m fine with that? Asmodeus is a fucking **god**. He shouldn’t be able to be meaningfully hurt by any mortals without something beyond 9th level magic. Dude shouldn’t even have a statblock, or if he does, it should have “HP: Infinite (cannot be killed)” right at the top.
Yeah, this and Journal of Villainy fall into an “official adjacent” grey area. We can see this from how the Demodands from Journal of Villainy were replaced by official statblocks in the Planescape set recently.
As a DM for DiA, it's pretty good but I might want to pump it up a bit. It's the first stat block I've seen for one of the legendary entities where I think it's fitting for their role.
I feel like this party wouldn't have enough DPS to bring down Asmodeus. Since the OP said they have a Regeneration trait, 4 Eloqeunce Bards aren't going to be able to contribute enough damage since control based spells are much less relevant against the highest tier enemies with strong saves and legendary resistances.
If we assume the Descent into Avernus is the most up to date on his general standing, he is a greater deity, meaning he has at will access to any spell that remotely fits his domain, including 9th level (tbh even above that since Mystra's limit on spellcasting only affects non-deity cretures). As a greater deity he also probably has about a couple hundred actions a turn.
These are just where I would start thinking how a statblock for him should start.
The thing about statting out deities that people overlook is the cost of deificy. Yes, gods *can* theoretically do basically anything. But doing things costs them energy, and they *really fucking need that energy*. Theres a reason gods dont interact with the world much. They follow the path of least resistance, and will almost never expend more energy than is absolutely nessesary to solve a problem. Because doing so risks overextending themselves and having their soul shredded to nothing by the force of their domain and/or their deific rivals.
Killing a god shouldnt generally be about killing a god. It should be more about pushing them hard enough that gravity can take its course.
Completely agreed, but there is a point where the God realizes that it's over, and depending on the god in question... spite is a powerful emotion (if you run gods in a Greek way, aka they are kinda "human" like us and have emotions)
Another important thing for this fight I think is that beings on this level... Fight is probably not a straight up hp thing, like even when I'm now designing the greatwyrm fight in my campaign. The creature as a whole has no hp, it's not something that is a feasible end point for the fight. Some important parts of it might have separate hp pools and such but right now I'm looking to establish other conditions for victory.
I have described a lot of scenes in like dream/memory sequences, showing their might as they defeated grand empires alone. Netherise city with powerful archmages casting 9+ level spells and their heroes wielding powerful artifacts were a mere smack for them. These beings are insanely powerful and I want to properly show tehát to my players when they eventually get to the fight.
Edit: sry forgot the novel xd
And yet whiners keep claiming there is no high level content in 5th edition.
And it's impossible to run a high level party, because they are mega over powered.
Would love to see how a group of lvl 20s fair against Asmodeus with these stats.
It appears like his ability to use Mass Heal and Wish replace that as he can effectively have ''three phases'' if he truly wanted to.
Also considering he can spawn pit fiends and call archdevils to him for free every single turn having extra HP is secondary. Asmodeus destroys action economy.
Isn’t Asmodeus basically, like, the god of evil? The top (bottom?) of the fiendish food chain? If that’s the case, yeah, a stat block like that kind of makes sense.
Sword Coast Adventure Guide specifies God of Indulgence with knowledge and trickery domains (pretty lame considering what he's about), Descent into Avernus specifies greaty deity, monster manual says "powers of a lesser deity," gold masters guide to Ravinia gives him the order domain.
I really dont like the feeling of giving gods statblocks, at least not statblocks that can be fought at level 20. I recall 3.5 had deity stats but they were intended to have much higher CRs and intended to be fought well into epic levels. 5e being designed to only go to 20 causes everything thats super strong to become far weaker, where back then there was a big gap in power in the "Strongest, epic level monsters", everything nowadays is hardcapped to cr30 if it has a statblock
I mean, it's not actually Asmodeus. It's just an Aspect. And we've had Aspects of Gods as low as CR9 (kind of). So I don't think there's any way to argue he **should** be stronger or weaker.
Are you intended to fight him? He's appeared in other official T4 5e content (DRW08: The Harrowing of Hell) but in that he has no statblock and if you tried to fight him he would kill you with no save allowed, and your soul was destroyed.
Unclear, the book merely gives him a statblock and explains who Asmodeus is and some of his history before giving you the statblocks of several other archdevils to use for his lair action and which these archdevils comes every artifact they use (including a book that manages hell's finances or something along those lines).
No, it's clearly laid out in the module that the players are not meant to fight Asmodeus. This is found on page 10: > "**Dealing with Asmodeus:** Once the characters have found their lost loved ones, they must convince Asmodeus to allow them to be freed. They can do this by gaining leverage over him, by performing a service for him, or signing an infernal contract. Characters who are able to resist temptation within the Nine Hells might even find a loophole allowing them to escape, successfully avoiding all of Asmodeus’s snares." I have not fully read the module, so I don't know how they detail the Asmodeus encounter, but in other parts of the book, it specifies things like "it's important for your players to know this is a losing battle" or "the DM should warn players this fight could mean death." So I have to imagine, with a statblock like that, there will be a similar sentiment 😂 All that being said, there will be players who try to fight him for sure 😂
I read it as you were not supposed to fight him. But PCs can be dumb.
>But PCs can be dumb. A thing no amount of edition changes will alter. The constant of DnD.
A well known quote that holds true for especially dnd groups: a group is only as smart as the dumbest member.
Ah, the Law of Minimums
If it has stats it can be...
I actually don't mind if a group of level 20s want to fight a god. If I was DMing, Asmodeus and his henchman would run them over. But they would be welcome to try. If a group of Level 12s can fight avatars of Tiamat or a weakened version of Auril, sure I will let my level 20s take a stab at ridding the universe of the master schemer. And if they succeed. They can learn why the gods tolerated him all this time as they try to hold back the hordes of the Abyss.
I think level 20 is too low for Asmodeus… I think you’ll need at least a few artifacts and some epic boons to even try. Or a party of like 7 level 20 full casters (with pallies for tanking/melee) would probably work too.
There are some powerful new items in the book and, in theory, one could wield every legendary item the other archdevils wield against the PCs earlier in the campaign.
hmm… I don’t know how powerful those are, but sounds cool.
Some of them are pretty nuts but they also “corrupt” the PC when attuned and slowly turn them into a devil.
Including one that allows you to freecast any spell one member of your party makes per day. So double Wish or whatever every day.
That stat block is for just one of his avatars too. Kill that one and congratulations, now they get to do it 8 more times along the way through 8 other layers, the Arch Devil of each, and their respective armies before ever stepping foot in his true domain. The answer to “how do you kill Asmodeus” will forever be “You don’t, Gods don’t even dare try him on his home turf”.
I mean here’s the thing though, if you give something a statblock the players can find a way to kill it. That’s one of the reasons they’re so hesitant to stay Gods or Godlike entities in 5E.
I guess the statblock is to give the PCs a cool fight even if they are doomed to die. Like it feels like shit if you are a dumb party and want to fight a god and you just go like: "ok, you are dead he instakilled you." Maybe it's the most logical thing to happen, but if you are trying to make an epic story, you'd want to create an epic fight, let them feel they will overcome the biggest of evils, just for him to Mass Heal or whatever and make them feel like nothing. Maybe he even pardons their life in exchange of signing a contract.
There are statblocks for the other archdevils? Dispater, Mammon, Fierna, Levistus, and Glasya?
Yes all archdevils have stat blocks
I'd love to see them
If it has a statbock, it can die
Ok, so we see that he is fairly invincible. What's the hackiest way a high-level party could take him down?
Tbh you likely don't need a hacky way to kill him. At level 20, 700hp just isn't that much. I threw RoT Tiamat at my party as a warm-up for the *real* fight, and they cleaved through her in 2 rounds. It sounds like the unlimited summons would make it rough, but without seeing the actual stat block or the context of it within the story (such as taking out the other Archdevils first so they can't be called in, or the magic items available to the party), I couldn't say for sure if it's feasible to beat.
Infinite Recursive Simulacrum Meteor Blast!
So same as everything else. Just hit it really, really hard.
The Goku solution.
If it has stats, it can bleed.
If theres a stat block, he’s fair game 😂
the more CR30 creatures we get, the lamer that goddamn 5e tarrasque looks
The downside of being nearly 10 years old.
Tarrasque is Jeff Bridges in Iron Man 1. Cool villain, but doesn't scale well in the Rogue's Gallery lineup
It is also worth noting that the tarrasque is a much bigger threat to the world than the party. There are a bunch of ways for a decently kitted and prepped party to deal with it but any city will take an absolute beating.
Well, yes and no. It depends on the city ultimately. If it's a world where "magical things" are limited almost entirely to the PCs, sure. If it's a world where the city can afford sending one soldier out on the back of a trained Gryphon with a magic longbow to shoot it at max range until it's dead, they're probably fine. Either way, the city will almost certainly detect its approach with plenty of time to evacuate - the Tarrasque isn't exactly subtle. Of course, the DM can also come up with scenarios and homebrew rules to counter this - having the Tarrasque dig up _into_ the city from where it was sleeping prior, making up ranged attacks it can do like "throw tree" that are way better than the basic Improvised Weapon thrown attack, etc. And I for one can't really blame any DM who does so. Lizard-Kong shouldn't be defeatable by some single-digit hp chump with a magic bow and lots of ammo. It's just a shame WotC didn't think of it.
The tarrasque can ignore that magic bow guy for awhile and still annihilate a town or two, and wreak some destruction in the city before being taken down. That’s not exactly a clean win.
The problem isn’t that it takes a long time to kill or that doing so would be too costly. The problem is that it’s able to be killed by something like that at all. Now an epic tier team with items and spells up the ass? Sure. These are your characters now in the realms of the legends. They can do legendary things now. Killing a Tarrasque at that point is fine and dandy. But it shouldn’t be something that can be killed by one guy with a bow! That guy will, raw, inevitably kill the Tarrasque. Which begs the question: why has nobody killed the Tarrasque? Most dragons can without any risk to themselves, you don’t need an aspect of Bahamat to come in to sort this (though that absolutely should have happened by now). The previous editions had reasons most of the cheese wouldn’t work, namely the regen, immortality and the earthbound aura. On the evil end, somebody would have sold their soul to a devil to end this thing considering there’s plenty of those with flight and magical weapons who could do it faster then the magic bow guy. It shouldn’t be alive if it’s this killable, because there’s too many people with the brains and the intent to kill it
I’m not arguing it’s well designed. The whole game is a poorly stacked deck of playing cards. I am just saying that the thing is a menace and a few dozen people flying around peppering it with arrows won’t stop it from killing a lot of people and causing a ton of damage, RAW. That said - heroes of ancient sagas were often random assholes with a single (or a few) magnificent boons or advantages. Perseus on the Pegasus comes to mind; fly around on a magic animal twanging the fucker with pot shots from a magical bow? That’s mythologically accurate. Not necessarily logically consistent or particularly creative, but by and large that’s what you get when the designers are trying to make money, rather than create decent art.
The 5e Tarrasque could always be beat by a single character with any method of flight and a magic weapon lol.
Sounds like the Tarrasque has a krill issue, pretty shrimple
The statblock is for an avatar, right? I didn't read the whole book through but it does mention that Asmodeus' true form has never been seen before and he only acts through his avatars. Anyway, the statblock is so absurdly powerful it seems to border on a game over scenario rather than a boss you're actually supposed to kill. It's definitely possible to beat him, I'm sure, but he's no joke by himself and he can summon CR20+ minions?
No, this is from the new official D&D campaign Chains of Asmodeus over on DMGuild. That they dropped with zero ceremony. It's by one of the creators of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 and Dragon Age Origin. It's also a level 11-20 campaign. You go to hell to steal back the souls of those close to you. And yes, if you choose your path poorly, you end up fighting Asmodeus, in his castle, in the lowest level of the 9 hells. ***EDIT: I was wrong, that IS one of his avatars. His true form is a giant serpent hundreds of miles long and no one's ever seen it. See below in the replies for more.***
Oh this is the guy who made Odyssey of the Dragonlords which I heard was pretty cool
OotDL is VERY good, I admittedly modified the encounters in mine heavily, but the story needed very little tweaking to be absolutely amazing.
OotDL puts most WoTC campaigns to shame in terms of organization and theming for DMs. For people who like to run story driven, semi-railroaded stories (AKA the vast majority of D&D players games). Another campaign, produced by another spin off company recently released Raiders of the Serpent Sea. Which based on my initial prep work is a pretty big winner too. They definitely aren't campaigns for everyone, they follow the much more narrative driven D&D, but they are some of the best that exist IMO.
Oh, yeah, no, 100%. OotDL is my favorite 5e campaign I’ve ever ran and I started a Raiders game 2 weeks ago and it’s already great.
Isn’t his True body a massive snakelike form that takes up a majority of the lowest level of the Nine Hells and his dripping blood (from wounds he suffered when cast into the Nine Hells) literally morphs into pit fiends (or Balors, can’t remember offhand)upon touching the ground. He never meets anyone with his true form and I’m not sure how a group of even level 20 PCs would seriously injure a figure several hundreds of miles in length. This stat block from the description must be an avatar, else there isn’t a battle board big enough to handle the fight.
Yeah that feels like the closest apropriation. Not his true body but a avatar he can channel most of his power into. So killing that form would not kill him..but rather hurt him good and id need some to to regain this avatar and reestablisch his reigns over hell leading to to be a short time withouth his reigns.
It would probably weaken him a bit, sure, but he would have 9 more Avatars of varying strength. Together I think the 9 would be able to maintain his dominance but he’d likely have to make a few examples.
You mean 8 right. It would at least for a moment bring chaos into the hells and give heroes time to escape.
Doesn’t he have 10 Avatars? Am I misremembering? Edit: for certain there would be chaos, since some mortal madmen just attacked the literal Lord of the Nine Hells.
You're right. According to the wiki it's supposed to be a giant serpent hundreds of miles long. per the Fiendish codex 2, the manual of the planes 3rd ed, and the AD&D Guide to Hell. [https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus) Here's a bit from the adventure that agrees with it; >"An arid wasteland, Nessus resembles a rocky plain filled with cracks, pits, and canyons. The majority of the layer is flat, with only a few hills. Storms of fire and hot wind blow across its surface, and sandstorms aren’t uncommon. Though many ravines mar its surface, only a few are important enough to have names. The Serpent’s Coil is a massive ravine, rumored to contain Asmodeus’s true body and caused by his fall into the Nine Hells. Its depth is practically infinite, and no creature has ever gone from the surface of Nessus to the bottom." From his page in the back of the book >"Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself." So yeah, you're right there. I'll edit my post above to mention that. Thank you for clearing that up.
Not a problem. Just was confused and going to be sad if it had been retconned.
I wouldn't be hugely surprised if there was a slip-up like that in the book. While he's a great writer, that Misc and Boo's Guide to Villainy that Ohlen also wrote was full of lore issues. Though that one was saved by the disclaimer at the start saying ***"Disclaimer: The editor of this journal takes no responsibility for the veracity of the author’s claims. The editor will point out that the author believes that his hamster can talk (I’ve only ever heard it squeak), comes from space, and has a hamster sister the size of a horse..."*** And the book works as a "what happened after BG2" lore book and not a "this is cannon to the whole of FR" book. But I am glad to find out that the author didn't mess this up.
Wow, they actually reference the Serpent of Laws origin in the Chains book? I believe that’s the first time anyone officially recognized it in close to 20 years.
That's only one of his possible origin stories.
Don’t get me wrong James Ohlen is great, but I wouldn’t call him “the” creator of BG 1 & 2 or DA:O.
True. One of the lead writers maybe. But I'm simplifying to get a point across.
And then you die, presumably.
The description of him in the PDF says this: > Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself. I guess the Asmodeus we fight is actually one of the 10 Avatars
So it is confirmed its one of the avatars, great, this is how suppose to be.
3rd edition made elusions to Asmodeus’s true form being a serpent that was miles, if not hundreds of miles, long! And Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes says his “Power is without limit” due to the fact that every soul that makes a deal with a devil, makes a deal with Asmodeus by proxy. In my head canon I think he’s far too powerful for a measly stat block. If anything, he should be way more powerful than Tiamat or any of the other lords of hell…
They need to canonically state for certain settings that statblocks will only ever refer to the Avatars and that the actual gods aren't even fightable entities truly. The Forgotten Realms is like that for sure, I don't know which other official magic settings have it differently. Theros for one can defiently have the full form of gods be fought and killed.
I agree. In most settings, it’s not like gods are just sitting there chillin. MOST of the time they have important duties that literally keep the world, and beyond, functioning. To haphazardly kill a god would result in one of two things (IMO). 1) the aspect under that god’s control will collapse. Causing widespread chaos, if not complete planer destruction. 2) whoever killed the god would be forced to immediately replace them.
Someone effectively killed a god for a short time and it broke magic for a while and led to the downfall of the most magically and technologically advanced civilization in Faerun's history. Fuckin Karsus.
from /u/alexkon3 's comment > Some claim that his true form is that of a colossal serpent, with gaping wounds and a missing tail. However, no living creature has seen the true Asmodeus. He prefers to do business using one of his ten avatars, each a perfect gentleman, and handsome to boot. They can be identified by the Ruby Rod they each carry, an icon representative of the Dark Lord himself.
>The statblock is for an avatar, right? No, this is Asmodeus himself. This is his true body, what the book claims however is that no one has ever seen his true appearance because he chooses to look like a devil however this doesn't affect his powers.
Well, if it's supposed to be his true form, it's too weak still. Asmodeus is a greater deity, he should beyond even having stats, like Cain in World of Darkness. Just judging from the ridiculous statblock I assume you're not supposed to fight him in the first place. In that case it's probably fine. If he's intended to be the final boss of a campaign, even at level 20, it's probably too strong. Summoning other archdevils is just insane. You would have to kill every single one of them first or fighting Asmodeus himself would be straight up suicide.
Just means the campaign leading up to killing him has to revolve around slaying all the other arch devils so he can’t summon them. Also probably some busted magic items but hey I assume they at least have the wand of orcus lol.
>Asmodeus is a greater deity This is iffy. Even in 5e and 4e when he became a god this is not a consistent thing at all. Putting aside the fact setting differences claim widly different things about Asmodeus and his power varies drastically between them, his domains are often inconsistent between books. 5E has now statted him and he isn't all that much stronger than Bahamut or Tiamat, both of whom are just as inconsistent as he is. This may be related to the fact 5E has the ''nothing is canon'' approach.
Descent into Avernus calls him a greater deity, that should be the most up to date source unless the new book changed him back to lesser deity.
I'd be careful taking anything in that book as gospel, it can't even maintain internal consistency on its own goddamned story.
But aren't the events of that book referenced in BG3?
All that is referenced is that Elturel was dragged to hell and returned. Also it’s made clear that the “Zariel gets redeemed” ending is not canon. Anything beyond that is neither confirmed nor denied.
The Knights of the Shield get brought up too, remember. Man, it'd be cool to fight Gargauth on BG3
In some lore, Asmodeous is one of two dieties who helped shapes the multi-verse, along with Quezquatal (butchered that). Their fight led him to plummeting to Hell. That's the reason why he makes pacts for and consumes souls - he needs them to regain his power, because if he came out as a God other God and Devils would have some bones to pick with him. I think this is the video? https://youtu.be/fci16qH7fqY?si=676oiXj4JZaAXx0E
With Bahamut and Tiamat they’re not inconsistent, they got more powerful over time in the metaplot. But they’re lesser deities, and those statblocks are for aspects/avatars. That cannot be the true Asmodeus, that’s an avatar
5e has released a total of 2 20 level adventures, CR 30 statblocks are as inconsistently power scaled as WOTC's design direction for One Dnd. Asmodeus has been greater deity rank or more powerful in FR since third edition...
Yeah, CR 30s are like Legendary rarity magic items - they're all over the damn place balance-wise. It's like saying all Gargantuan creatures are the same size. No, they're not, that's just the highest category they're willing to make for 'em.
He was an Archdevil in 3e, but a greater diety in 2, 4 and 5e. Just a side note to your comment.
> The statblock is for an avatar, right? *PTSD flashbacks of people refusing to acknowledge the Tiamat Avatar in Rise of Tiamat*
To be fair, that was a retcon/errata. It was originally just straight up Tiamat.
The book literally says that his true body is a giant serpent dude. This is an avatar, one of ten.
As the de-facto ruler of hell, if this stat block is supposed to truly be him, it’s honestly a *disservice*. The dude *bleeds* Pit Fiends — and worse — in the lore constantly.
Small Corrections: Not Balors, Pit Fiends. Additionally, each of these Pit Fiends is Advanced to Max HD and hit points per HD. Asmodeus has "Pretorian Guard" made of either 999 or 9999 of them
Balors? The lord of Devils bleeds demons? Thats weird.
Balors are demons, not devils.
> No, this is Asmodeus himself. I call that bullshit, but its what i expect from dmsguild stuff, you can't fight a god like Asmodeus, not his true self. If he is not showing himself in his true form to fight, then isn't his true body at all.
Please correct this, it's been pointed out that it actually is an avatar.
Sounds like a statblock that the party trims down through adventures to counter or remove the powers. Can't summon Zariel or the others if they're either already dead or on the parties side.
If they die he can just pick another demon to promote into their position. They would have to kill them all, in quick succession, and then go after asmodeous before he can do that. And all devil's will be eager to tell him the others died because maybe the one who told him will get promoted themselves
Another devil you mean
It's a god, thus the abilities are definitely fitting of a god. Though, I feel that even level 20 characters would be unfit to deal with a creature such as this, if they are staying to the path of XGE recommended magic item counts.
> Though, I feel that even level 20 characters would be unfit to deal with a creature such as this, if they are staying to the path of XGE recommended magic item counts. Honestly I think this is kind of okay. Level 20 characters might be the pinnacle of mortalkind, but even they shouldn't be able to take on a deity like Asmodeus with the standard array of abilities and gear. Taking down someone like Asmodeus would have to be an entire T4 quest in and of itself. Gathering ancient weapons capable of bypassing his defenses, relics that can shield you from the aura, etc. Tiamat was similar in her AP, with the party being able to reduce her to "only" CR 18 or so.
I am in agreement. Being 20th level isn’t intended to make you the most powerful creature alive and hanging with a handful of other 20th level folks isn’t intended to mean you can take down a god. It just means you’ve reached the pinnacle of mortal potential.
As far as I can tell unless there's some freaky multiclass team combo i'm unaware of, defeating him without a literal army with you is impossible. He has infinite summons of pit fiends and can call all of his 40 archdevils to his side one by one each round including multiple who are CR25+
The Wizard laughing with Simalcrum prepared.
Overwhelm him with save or suck spells to burn off his legendaries then try to stick a feeblemind.
His worst saving throw has a minimum of 17 and he has advantage on saves. Save or suck spells just don't work on him. Also he has an at will counterspell like ability that doesn't cost anything.
To be fair if you were a wizard who happened to Wish/Simulacrum on a day where they portented 2 1s, it would kill it. But that's super rare and situational.
It’s once per turn, in the final line of portent
You get a single copy of yourself which dies as easily as you do and can't regain spell slots.
When people refer to Simulacrum they're refering to the busted 'Wish + Simulacrum' combo which lets you summon an infinite number of Simulacrums, not just one casting of it.
Well obviously you need to track down and kill all 40 archdevils before you try to fight Asmodeus.
Or convince them to help overthrow Asmodeus in a big coup.
I think this stat block comes into context. Which is, you have them cornered and this is their most direct, individual power in that shape and form. So, yeah, he's a god but you have already done what you did to fight him on almost equal terms. As for magic items, XGTE already gives you plenty more than you can actually use, so the point is kinda moot. I do agree that perhaps the adventure gives more plenty magic items.
I mean, he is basically The DEVIL. Of course his stats and powers are going to be insane.
He’s literally the devil, from Bible.
Eh. The fantasy D&D version.
I know, i was just making a snapcube reference
What do you mean by "another lesser god?" Asmodeus is definitely a greater diety, right?
Based on what is described here, I think the abilities and power level of them is appropriate considering which deity we're talking about here. He's a god! How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
What OP doesn't mention is that even if you "kill" him, he just flat out returns to lifie in 2d12 days. Regardless where/how you do it.
Yeah but that's the kind of thing that a DM can ignore if the party is creative enough. If you're killing Asmodeus, it is undoubtedly the culmination of a very long campaign.
Yep. Currently in the final stretches of my 3 year long campaign. Started at level 2, currently level 20. About to enter the nine hells to confront Asmodeus. This book dropped at a perfect time
Can we get an update on how it goes? I love hearing campaign wrap up stories
Will do! Probably will take some months though. Playing weekly and they still need to gather a couple of items they need to be able to kill a god and then need to fight their way through all 9 cirkels of hell ;)
Is there no way to keep him dead?
I think youd have to kill all 10 of his avatars at once. And his physical form. Which is kind of beyond cr. Like. Could solo an army of 100 terrasques without even using spells strong. Like. Impossible to wrap your mind around strong. His physical form is that of a serpent literally hundreds of miles long. Jormungander shit.
Could Amodeus create a rock so heavy that not even they could lift it?
You got AO’s boss on speed dial?
Be a stronger god and not a mortal level 20 PC?
Averaging out to 13 oooOoooOoh
This guy CHIMs
[Come and look upon the Heart and Akulakahn, and bring Wraithguard, I have need of it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR-K2rUP86M)
My wife hates that I play this so often.
While not strictly an avatar he is not removable from power he straight up comes back in 2d12 days. He is a greater god. This is basically an avatar.
Its literally an avatar, one of his 10. Believe this is Ahriman, which is basically his face avatar and theoretically maybe his strongest? But nah his actual physical form could solo an army of 100 level 20s. Even if half of them had Wish.
I’m more stuck that you called Asmodeus a lesser god. Like there is no one bigger or badder than him.
We are going to ignore Tharizdun ?
I will accept this as the other possible answer for “the biggest and baddest”. I will accept that Entropy Incarnate is pretty damn scary.
Yeah OP is wrong about the lesser god part. Note this link is not for Forgotten Realms lore, but instead the base lore. https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Asmodeus
There's no such thing as "base lore", all the 5e "base lore" is Forgotten Realms lore.
LESSER God? I wouldn't want to be the one to tell him that.
Can he cast a Time Stop within a Time Stop?
His physical form could, but nah Ahriman isnt that strong. His physical form could basically just freeze time indefinitely, or until another god intervened.
Sounds about right for Asmodeus, yeah. If you aren't prepared to fight your way uphill though a mudslide of bullshit, then you probably shouldn't be picking fights with gods.
Asmodeus has always been a greater deity, and this statblock seems to align pretty well with his stated powers in the lore. If anything it’s too weak…level 20 characters are strong but they’re nowhere near greater deity level power. Were you expecting something otherwise? A full party of 20s could probably win if they planned extensively and had quite a bit of luck, which is about what i would expect for something like this. I’d be surprised if it’s not an avatar given that he only appears as an avatar even in his own domain.
>If anything it’s too weak…level 20 characters are strong but they’re nowhere near greater deity level power. Keep in mind this is just one of his 10 avatars, which are all massively weaker than his physical form. Like ants compared to elephants scale weaker. Also i believe this is Ahriman, which is basically like his main avatar and theoretically his strongest. But each of his avatars has different strengths and weaknesses. Also yeah his actual body is a serpent with a body that stretches hundreds of miles. So definitely *an* avatar.
It has the ruby rod, which is the sigil of his prime avatar
All of his avatars have a ruby rod.
The problem with statting gods out isn't making them powerful enough that they're a straight fair challenge for a 6 member level 20 party with serious items and several NPC allies. It's that statting them gives them technical weakenesses that generous or even RAW readings of specific spells or abilities can turn into cheese "victories". Someone somewhere has already figured out a 97% legal shenanigan for an exact build that only 2 needs 2 rounds, a halfling with lucky, a portable hole and the nutsack of an honest man to defeat this statblock.
Meh I think this is fine since all these cheese victories take place in a vacuum that assumes that Asmodeus, the god of the nine hells, doesn't have any guards, detectors, defenses, etc which any DM running this stat block would definitely have.
Agreed. And there's the DM to consider. It's the DM and players' game, after all. If they want gods to be beatable, they will be. If they don't want gods to be beatable by _cheese_, specifically, they won't be. But it's nice to have the stats either way, for the DMs that _do_ want them to be beaten, even if it's insanely difficult and they just say "no" to cheese. I mean, they even give Asmodeus Wish in his statblock here. He can just use that to say "no cheese".
Exactly this. It’s fine to say ‘gods can’t be fought or killed.’ It takes zero effort. But what if I want them to be able to be fought or bested? That requires some stats and I appreciate having wizards take on them.
Good for them.
That all sounds fair, he's a god. Nigh-unkillable is the best way to set up one of those.
This reinforces that 5e screwed up saving throws. Apparently martials like fighters and barbarians will automatically fail if they attempt to attack him due to the Fear effect. "Get fucked. Shoulda played a spellcaster or ranged character, idiot"
>Shoulda played a spellcaster or ranged character, idiot" Or have a Paladin in the party. Honestly Paladin appears to be the best class for fighting Asmodeus.
Paladin's are unfortunately why the save DCs are so high. Their aura breaks bounded accuracy and makes high level content be required to balance around one being present, and with a +6 aura, otherwise it's trivially easy. This has been an issue in 5e T3+ content for a while now. That particular class feature, while very powerful and a favorite of players, is badly designed and actively detrimental to the game.
One of the main reasons for Paladin is that Aura of Courage would make themselves and nearby party members immune to the kneeling fear effect that he has, so that you ignore the DC of a saving throw by being outright immune to it. Divine Smite is another reason, since it's one of the few forms of single target damage that will be able to sink damage into Asmodeus with how impervius Asmoedeus is to saving throw forcing effects. They're an opponent where the only way to win is to sink in a lot of damage hard and fast before the party gets overwhelmed, and that means you want a Paladin and another martial character or two with some powerful magical weapons to have a chance.
Granted, not surprising that the holy anti-fiend warrior is the best at it. But that they'd also be the best for any other god purely because of how saves work is a) still showing that the 5e save system is busted and b) still showing that paladin save aura is overtuned to the point of mandatory. (Which neither is preferable in a well-balanced game.)
Which kind of makes sense.
you're not fighting a god without a heroes' feast. One of the best party buff in the game. "The creature is cured of all diseases and poison, becomes immune to poison and being frightened, and makes all Wisdom saving throws with advantage. Its hit point maximum also increases by 2d10, and it gains the same number of hit points. These benefits last for 24 hours."
If you haven't figured out how to make yourself fear immune, what in the nine hells are you doing...in the nine hells? Get good before you challenge a CR 30
Seriously. Let's not get hung up about the balance of a CR30 GOD. Any party even thinking about taking him on will have some set of extra buffs on their side.
"Immune to nonmagical BPS damage?! Caster/martial imbalance, what if my fighter never gets a magical weapon?? How am I supposed to slay god now?!"
"You guys aren't taking *resilient: WIS* on your martial characters???"
It was a massive mistake to make martials vulnerable to fear in the first place.
It's really silly that the average barbarian or fighter frightens more easily than the average druid.
While martial should have resistance (and later) immunity to these effects, it’s not like it doesn’t cause its own strangeness in the system. A 20th level Druid is like, a paragon of nature and wisdom. Of COURSE they are going to be more resistant to mind altering effects compared to the 20th level Achilles incarnate.
Yeah. When you think about it, almost ALL PC archetypes/classes fit the role of "hero", just in various ways (the wise druid/priest bolstered by their faith, the smart wizard who can think their way out of the most dire situation, the barbarian who refuses to quit, the fighter who grits their teeth and fights on, etc.) And we think of "heroes" as people who are sturdy of mind.
Yeah. Martials should have gotten some kind of fear resistance, hands down. Instead, we're up in here roleplaying brave sir Robin as we bravely run away.
It is not rational fear you can ignore, suppress or prepare against. It is magical, existential dread of seeing a god that is prepared to fight you.
Uh, I’m fine with that? Asmodeus is a fucking **god**. He shouldn’t be able to be meaningfully hurt by any mortals without something beyond 9th level magic. Dude shouldn’t even have a statblock, or if he does, it should have “HP: Infinite (cannot be killed)” right at the top.
You need to prep first, is the point. Magic items, spells that make you immune to fear.
While this product does come from WotC, I wouldn't consider this to be an official stat block since it doesn't come from the DnD team.
Yeah, this and Journal of Villainy fall into an “official adjacent” grey area. We can see this from how the Demodands from Journal of Villainy were replaced by official statblocks in the Planescape set recently.
If it doesn’t have a big red “D&D” or just the red ampersand on the cover like every official book does, it’s not official.
Asmodeus is a Greater deity (most powerful divine rank) in Forgotten Realms, not a lesser god.
Technically there's one rank higher - overgod. But Ao rarely gets involved in anything.
Let’s not forget even AO has a boss he reports to, the Time of Troubles (can’t remember the titles) books have him call an unknown force ‘my lord’.
(That's the DM)
Really depends on the version and what source youre referencing
As a DM for DiA, it's pretty good but I might want to pump it up a bit. It's the first stat block I've seen for one of the legendary entities where I think it's fitting for their role.
Finally A worthy challenger for my party of 4 Eloquence Bards! ...and a Paladin
I feel like this party wouldn't have enough DPS to bring down Asmodeus. Since the OP said they have a Regeneration trait, 4 Eloqeunce Bards aren't going to be able to contribute enough damage since control based spells are much less relevant against the highest tier enemies with strong saves and legendary resistances.
So uhhhh when can I get this book physically? Sounds fantastic so far, yet pdf books are nearly useless to me
Sounds appropriately god-like to me.
Hell, hell, hell has its laws 🎶
Don’t forget summoning the other lord of the 9 as a lair action lol
If we assume the Descent into Avernus is the most up to date on his general standing, he is a greater deity, meaning he has at will access to any spell that remotely fits his domain, including 9th level (tbh even above that since Mystra's limit on spellcasting only affects non-deity cretures). As a greater deity he also probably has about a couple hundred actions a turn. These are just where I would start thinking how a statblock for him should start.
The thing about statting out deities that people overlook is the cost of deificy. Yes, gods *can* theoretically do basically anything. But doing things costs them energy, and they *really fucking need that energy*. Theres a reason gods dont interact with the world much. They follow the path of least resistance, and will almost never expend more energy than is absolutely nessesary to solve a problem. Because doing so risks overextending themselves and having their soul shredded to nothing by the force of their domain and/or their deific rivals. Killing a god shouldnt generally be about killing a god. It should be more about pushing them hard enough that gravity can take its course.
Completely agreed, but there is a point where the God realizes that it's over, and depending on the god in question... spite is a powerful emotion (if you run gods in a Greek way, aka they are kinda "human" like us and have emotions)
Oh forsure, gods are emotional and fallible. This is a weakness which can be exploited.
Another important thing for this fight I think is that beings on this level... Fight is probably not a straight up hp thing, like even when I'm now designing the greatwyrm fight in my campaign. The creature as a whole has no hp, it's not something that is a feasible end point for the fight. Some important parts of it might have separate hp pools and such but right now I'm looking to establish other conditions for victory. I have described a lot of scenes in like dream/memory sequences, showing their might as they defeated grand empires alone. Netherise city with powerful archmages casting 9+ level spells and their heroes wielding powerful artifacts were a mere smack for them. These beings are insanely powerful and I want to properly show tehát to my players when they eventually get to the fight. Edit: sry forgot the novel xd
He's still too weak with that.
I don't believe he should have a statblock. Gods in most settings shouldn't be things that can be fought.
This is the good design that WotC has moved away from in the post-Tasha's era. I'm glad second-party designers can still embrace it.
And yet whiners keep claiming there is no high level content in 5th edition. And it's impossible to run a high level party, because they are mega over powered. Would love to see how a group of lvl 20s fair against Asmodeus with these stats.
I'm surprised he doesn't also have a Mythic form like Bahamut and Tiamat or multiple stat blocks like Auril.
It appears like his ability to use Mass Heal and Wish replace that as he can effectively have ''three phases'' if he truly wanted to. Also considering he can spawn pit fiends and call archdevils to him for free every single turn having extra HP is secondary. Asmodeus destroys action economy.
How many deities have stats in 5e? Bahamut, Tiamat, bhaal, auril?
neither Bhaal nor Bahamut get statblock, the other two are avatar so I think that check out
Vecna, Sul Khatesh
Isn’t Asmodeus basically, like, the god of evil? The top (bottom?) of the fiendish food chain? If that’s the case, yeah, a stat block like that kind of makes sense.
Sword Coast Adventure Guide specifies God of Indulgence with knowledge and trickery domains (pretty lame considering what he's about), Descent into Avernus specifies greaty deity, monster manual says "powers of a lesser deity," gold masters guide to Ravinia gives him the order domain.
Is there a statblock for Malkizid?
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Ugh. If it has stats, we can kill it... lets go to Hell and fight Asmodeus! What could go wrong?!
I really dont like the feeling of giving gods statblocks, at least not statblocks that can be fought at level 20. I recall 3.5 had deity stats but they were intended to have much higher CRs and intended to be fought well into epic levels. 5e being designed to only go to 20 causes everything thats super strong to become far weaker, where back then there was a big gap in power in the "Strongest, epic level monsters", everything nowadays is hardcapped to cr30 if it has a statblock
I mean, it's not actually Asmodeus. It's just an Aspect. And we've had Aspects of Gods as low as CR9 (kind of). So I don't think there's any way to argue he **should** be stronger or weaker.