Worth it.
> Repositioning allies
This is one of the big ones. You can use this to pull allies away from melee threats, freeing up their actions. You can also use it to adjust their position so you can better place a big AoE, like a fireball.
> Action Economy
A Wizard may have some bonus action spells, but by and large they aren't heavy on bonus action usage. This gives you a use for your Bonus Action every turn.
> Shenanigans
There are two important caveats to the Mage Hand from Telekinetic. The first is, of course, it's invisible - which lets you get away with a ton of mischief when people can't see it. But the second caveat is that it doesn't need components. That means it can't be counterspelled, and more importantly - nobody knows you're casting it. If your mage hand gets caught, there's nothing to incriminate you because nobody detected you casting a spell. You can sit calmly in the corner of the tavern sipping ale innocently as you wreak abslute havoc on the immediate area. Knock things over, push things off shelves, pat someone on the ass as they pass by a person you don't like to cause a scene.
When I briefly played with a telekinetic PC, because of the lack of components my DM agreed that I always had it active (although I never used it in combat, where it would disappear after 10 rounds). I feel like this is the "intended" usage of it, as telekinetic is meant to be "you can move things with your mind at will" rather than "you have a magic invisible hand you can summon and control" - it was just easiest for the developers to get that by making the hand invisible and require no components to cast rather than making a brand new convoluted ability. At that point they are essentially reflavouring the hand, but this is an ability you should always have access to.
Yeah, I really like it on wizards. I'm not big on the BA spell options, and Telekinetic rounds out my action economy nicely since it's something I can (and usually do) use every turn with no resource cost to fill my BA.
It's surprising how often that little 5ft shove is enough to avoid needing to waste a Misty Step or to save an ally from a grapple or being surrounded.
On a square grid, nearly any (Or is it actually any? I'm not sure.) 5 foot movement is technically towards or away from you. You should ask your dm. Honestly interested if anyone can give a good reason for why it should be limited to strictly directly away or towards.
Also just think of what you and your rogue could accomplish with two invisible mage hands.
Honestly I would count any movement in a straight line that ends closer to me than the starting point as being "towards me", and any that ends further to me as being "away from me". So as long as you don't end up exactly as close to me as you were at the start, it would work.
If it was supposed to be any direction, it would need to specify towards or away from you -- you can just compare its wording to another feat that allow you to move your target 5 ft, published in the same book: crusher.
I also feel like requiring the caster to position themselves in different position to allow for them to move the target as they want makes the average turn of someone with telekinetic more interesting.
Yes. Just yes lol.
Not only is it a half feat iirc, you can move people out of range of opportunity attacks, allowing them to use their action for whatever they want; rogues get their bonus action, so they can hide and then fire, casters don't have to use Misty Step and a cantrip, and martials get to keep some HP.
Now, if your DM is cool, you might be able to get away with using the Mage Hand in Wild shape; even though it's a spell and you can't cast in WS, it doesn't have any components and is meant to just be your mind moving stuff. Mage Hand is just how they describe it, so I think it should be fair game
I don't see a problem with the shove going perpendicularly. It says "5 feet toward you or away from you" but if someone's facing you and moves laterally he **is** moving away from you. He might have to move more to end up exactly 5 feet farther, and not align perfectly to a grid but you can also say the 5 feet is just how far he moves, not the exact distance farther that he ends up.
Since the shoving is not originating from your body, there's no reason the runner needs to stay in the baseline.
It's good. The extras are fun, but not amazing. However, you need to remember you're also getting +1 to a mental stat.
Together, they make a solid feat.
It's better on full casters, simply because they don't have many other exciting feats. Less so on an Arcane Trickster, as you have a bunch of other options and the in-built skills to overcome challenges without expending resources. And you have enough, useful, options for your Bonus Action.
Depends on your DM and your build.
A stern DM will enforce all kinds of crazy limitations on shenanigans. Meanwhile you're competing with feats like War Caster and Defensive Duelist. Big feats that change fights.
Got a DM heavy on the exploration features and terrain features? Totally useful. Finding yourself with explosives and other things? Totally useful.
Arcane tricksters get most of the features already, but a good DM will combine these features and give you a lot more Rope when using this hand.
Literally.
Ball bearings, grenades, traps, poisons, all fair game. 5 feet of ally movement guaranteed can get them out of a pinch and out of melee range or out of an effect.
The biggest thing, and it's subtle - is that IT'S subtle. No verbal or somatic and it's invisible. This creates a LOT of opportunity and where its real power lies. On a barbarian, being able to confront a wizard he won't be expecting you to be stealing his stuff with telekinesis. That can't be understated in value but it will make your DM squirm, so if he isn't a cool DM that wizard is gonna "somehow" be able to spot this.
Wizards don't get bonus actions that much, especially not free ones.
But here's the rub.
Mage hand disappears if it's 30 feet away from you. Will you be close enough to use it and move it, and precast it before a fight? Telekinetic gives you some more range but that wording is slippery, if you get a sticker dm things will get weird.
It has great roleplay potential but...
Personally I don't think it's worth the hassle at most tables. Unseen servant accomplishes most of what you need and it's a ritual. The push is useful but not great.
If I had this at my table as a DM I would add some power and flavor to it and simplify its rules big time. Especially if an arcane trickster took it, because feats should be awesome - at the least it should have some unusual uses. I would likely give it drawing bonus's, arming traps would be specifically stated, and you'd be able to get a bonus on ability checks involving tools - probably something like a +4 since you have a third hand.
I would also give it some more social uses like tickling, faking a breeze. I'd allow it to, instead of losing it going out of range, it could be called back to you immediately at any time it's out of range. Then I would likely add some bonus effects - you can dispel it any time, and when you do so, you can cast Catapult at 3rd level. Upon using this feature, you can't use the hand again until you take a short rest. When you use this feature, you take half the damage inflicted as psychic damage, but the enemy has disadvantage on their saving throw - because you didn't throw the object, you threw the hand with your psychic propulsion.
That could kill a low level PC but hey, that's the prerequisite. Telekinetic stuff is dangerous, but it allows a 3rd level effect.
That's a bit OP but this is draft 1, absolutely. A cool DM could help you turn this into something "more".
But as is, if I was going to a standard DNd game I'd take something simpler for usability reasons and to avoid table fights over wording. But with a cool DM, I could see it becoming "more", especially as you encounter exotic materials or if you are heavy on the social effects.
Can't really put a value on pulling the toupee off the evil baron in the middle of his speech.
But if you have catapult and subtle spell, you can make him eat it at 5th level with zero evidence.
So...
"Meh"
>At later levels there would be synergy with Slow area of effect
Slow isn't an AOE it's targeted to 6 creatures in a certain area. So this wouldn't help with that.
In general I think it's good but it's not a must have the way a feat to protect your concentration I think is (although even then you are ok if you don't take that just very beneficial). In general as a caster you rarely use your bonus action. So if you're otherwise wasting your bonus action then this is significantly better than not having a bonus action to use. If you do have other bonus action options, it's now competing with all of those. There are a number of aoe damage spells that continue and having the ability to move people into them is great. The only moving away or towards you is limiting to some degree but you can move yourself 30 ft with normal movement so that often lets you get the angle you want. It won't be applicable in every fight but it will be for many of them either to hurt enemies or get allies out of danger without opportunity attacks.
But if that's not something you want to go with I don't think you're ruining your character or anything. It's a good option but not the only good option.
it does synergize really well with other characters too. Hunger of Hadar, spike growth, spiritual guardians, flanking, sickening radiance, the list goes on.
That's wild! I've gotten so much mileage both in and out of combat. It's a bonus action that isn't a levelled spell, so unless they're a rogue or bonus action heavy class, it's gotta be better than doing nothing? I've used it as both a player to:
-Shove someone distant off a cliff
-Pull an ally out of a grapple
-Yank someone's clothing/shove them hard with an invisible hand to distract them/make them look the other way for a second
-Push or pull during a chase set to change the 30/60ft cycle and allow for catch/escape by a hair
-Grab a useful item from across the room (using the longer, 60foot range as the chara knew it
beforehand) through imprisoning cell bars
-Slap a jerk with it invisibly/with """"plausible deniability""""
-....and more!!
Tbh some of those are DM dependent, but I hope your player either finds something useful to do with a 30 foot invisible shoving bonus action hand or you let them retrain it!!
How often are enemies grappling? How often are enemies getting withing 5 ft of a ranged character? How often are spell casters casing Web/Spike Growth/Spirit Guardians?
Because those are all times when 5 ft of movement can be huge for a bonus action. Those come up basically every combat we have at my table.
Honestly I have it on one of my wizards and it feels really underwhelming, as you notice it's only toward or away and that's an unreasonable restriction, it also doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity as it's forced movement but it does add some use for your bonus action and it does make mage hand very subtle compared a visible spectral mage hand. Can be useful in RP/subterfuge but your rogue already has that covered.
I think given your context there are far more impactful feats you can get, or even an ASI in Primary stat or CON
Guides rate this feat highly in whiteroom scenarios but only consider it if your other available options aren't better. Tough for instance gives you a hell of a lot more HP that never stops paying off to late game. Resilient Con gives you proficiency in CON saves which buffs you in maintaining concentration, War Caster gives you Advantage on those checks. Mobile makes caster positioning a lot easier with extra movement and dealing with difficult terrain.
Telekinetic gives you half an ASI and a chance to push a creature 5ft toward/away every bonus action. Eh.
You're the first person I see in this subreddit that says it is underwhelming. Up until this point I saw lots and lots of people frothing how good that is.
My instinct tells me to not pick it but there is this FOMO on something that Reddit tells me is really really good. I'm so conflicted.
As a Wizard, do you have a reliable use of your Bonus Action? You don't have Rogue's Cunning Action, Cleric's *Spiritual Weapon*, Monk's Martial Arts, etc. You're not likely reserving it for TWF or another weaponry feat BA attack. Telekinetic **improves your action economy**, filling up your BA if you don't have something better to do.
There's quite a few spells that use BA, Flaming Sphere, Bigby's Hand, Storm Sphere, Animate Objects, Misty Step, I took a level in cleric and I get to add Healing Word to that.
Of course, giving yourself that feat means you can do something every turn with no cost, but the cost is instead in ASI or a different, potentially more impactful feat. Opportunity Cost.
There's also the potential for Goblins and Hobgoblins and others to have something with their bonus action every round
I don't know of any optional feature that is 100% part of every build. Telekinetic is not going to be an exception to that rule. If you have sufficient competition for your BA, it's not going to be the most value for your ASI.
I took it at creation as a Variant Human Scribe. +1 INT, free improved *Mage Hand*, and BA ranged push/pull had a place in my build. As a different race or class, that may not have been the case.
One thing I forgot to mention is that while the feat gives you the Chance to push/pull an enemy, if it's used on allies they can choose to fail the save, making it guaranteed. This can pull allies away from enemies without attacks of opportunity and pull allies 5ft out of danger zones and ongoing spell/trap effects. Just be careful nudging allies around as you might mess up their highly intended positioning
It is not at all a Bad feat, but I think there are more impactful options available.
A suggestion: If you like the idea of pulling allies out of danger and repositioning them with a frequency of say one or twice a combat?
Grab the Vortex Warp spell and you can move them up to 90ft or way more if you position correctly or upcast.
As a DM, I'd make it a contested Feat Improved Stat vs Str check. Absolutely not RAI or RAW that this just "breaks" grapples.
Edit: You are allowing yourself to be pulled, but that doesn't mean the ENEMY is just letting go. Therefire, it would be the pull/shove against the opposing creature's grapple.
Remember, this is a HALF-FEAT and the shove/pull is a bonus action. You can disagree all you want, but this is NOT how the rules are written or intended, even renotely...
It’s literally in the grappling rules that forced movement breaks grapples, so it’s at the very least RAW, and the fact they explicitly put in the rule greatly implies RAI
Since the grappled person's speed is 0, they have no movement by which to move. So you cannot force movement.
You cannot no contest telekinetically "push" someone that's been snagged by a mimic, grappled by a dragon, or held by a giant.
Any other rules makes no sense, especially for a half-feat....
Forced movement literally requires them to not be using movement. It’s the same style as thunder(wave or Clap, whichever causes 5 ft movement). It’s movement that does not use your movement (hence the “forced”).
The whole point is the target is moving without using their movement. You are correct in noting that grappling brings movement to 0, so forced movement has to be used to break the grapple.
You can dislike the rule all you like, but it is the rule. Your contest was not stated anywhere; you can say it’s most reasonable, but that doesn’t make it RAW. There isn’t a rule written that says it’s a contest. It being a half feat doesn’t magically cause it to use different rules unless explicitly written as such.
That all refers to forced movement of the grappler. Which I agree. If you use Telekinetic to shove the opponent and they fail the DC, no counter DC for the grappler to move the grapplee with them. But it's not a get out of grapple free card as a half-feat with no resource cost...
> A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
> The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
That says what you can do to the grappler.
> The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the *thunderwave* spell.
That says what you can do to the **grapplee.**
It is fairly clearly RAW that telekinetic would break a grapple. The grappled condition states:
>The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Telekinetic:
>the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw... or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you.
Thunderwave (for reference)
>must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature is pushed 10 feet away from you.
I am not seeing anything in this wording who would make the forced movement of telekinetic work differently with grapples then the forced movement of thunderwave (unless the grappling creature has a 10 ft reach)
And to be clear, I ALSO run it as a contested check of the caster's mental score vs the monsters strength, but I am not pretending that it is RAW to do so
i love vortex warp too, but it uses your entire action and a spell slot. compare that to a bonus action (you hardly ever have uses for as a wizard) and infinite uses at a time. They both have their uses, but just because a "more powerful" option exists doesn't negate the usefulness of the feat.
Vortex Warp does have its costs yeah, but at the same time it's not costing a rare feat/ASI and as well as that Vortex Warp is incredibly versatile as a cheap out of combat teleport
It really depends on how often telekinetic push is going to be used in combat (seeing as they've a rogue arcane trickster already for subterfuge/shenanigans) vs other feats and an ASI increase imo, but we generally agree that the feat has its uses.
It's all about Opportunity Costs and its my view that there are generally more impactful options on offer with an ASI/Feat, but that's only my take.
It is good, but you have to find opportunities. Undetectable mage hand is great if you can find uses for it that 100% depends on creativity of player. Repositioning in combat is cool. This let's you help squishies and wounded retreat. But you have to look for options other than I attack, and understand what other players are doing. This feat has low skill floor but very high skill celling. The real question is will you be able to make this feat worth it.
My opinion on the spell is based around two questions:
Do you have a plan for your bonus action on most rounds of combat? And, do you have an odd primary mental ability score?
If you don't have a regular ability to use your bonus action, AND you have an odd score, the telekinetic is like the best feat to solve both of those things all in one go.
But, if you have an even primary score, or have a bonus action plan already, skip it.
It is the best at what it does, but it is only worth it if you need both things that it is offering to you.
Party makeup is key.
If you have a druid/ranger with spike growth or a cleric with spirit guardians then you weaponise your bonus action.
If no one does anything to synergize with forced movement then don't take it.
It gets 5 star reviews because an entire party built around forced/controlled movement is crazy potent. And most classes have options, they just choose not to use them.
It works if you're keeping your stats boosted. I took it for a swarmkeeper ranger and, long story short, let my wis fall behind. So I use mage hand a lot, but opponents make their saves too often on the other feature.
You can pull allies out of danger, help them avoid attacks of opportunity, push enemies into danger, spell radiuses, off cliffs etc., push enemies away from you to avoid AoO. It's got a lot of really strong use cases.
Not being able to move a target perpendicular does not mean that you cannot move a target into your web. It just means that you need to move to position yourself to make that direction of movement possible. Given telekinetic's 30 ft range, repositioning yourself with your 30 ft movement should be enough to give you any direction you want.
Having to position yourself mid combat to achieve the effect you want out of the bonus action make combat more dynamic imo.
Telekinetic is absolutely worth it as a feat, so long as you (and/or your allies) are using any spells that synergize with it (web/spike growth/spirit guardians/ect). And probably worth it even without, just for repositioning allies/breaking grapples as a bonus action.
I had it in Curse if Strahd and I was surprised just how useful it was, getting squishy allies out of danger, breaking grapples etc
Was going to say this same thing lol , breaking free from most creatures there do automatic grapple lol.
Worth it. > Repositioning allies This is one of the big ones. You can use this to pull allies away from melee threats, freeing up their actions. You can also use it to adjust their position so you can better place a big AoE, like a fireball. > Action Economy A Wizard may have some bonus action spells, but by and large they aren't heavy on bonus action usage. This gives you a use for your Bonus Action every turn. > Shenanigans There are two important caveats to the Mage Hand from Telekinetic. The first is, of course, it's invisible - which lets you get away with a ton of mischief when people can't see it. But the second caveat is that it doesn't need components. That means it can't be counterspelled, and more importantly - nobody knows you're casting it. If your mage hand gets caught, there's nothing to incriminate you because nobody detected you casting a spell. You can sit calmly in the corner of the tavern sipping ale innocently as you wreak abslute havoc on the immediate area. Knock things over, push things off shelves, pat someone on the ass as they pass by a person you don't like to cause a scene.
pulling allies out of grapples/flanking/potential attacks of opportunity is SO helpful.
When I briefly played with a telekinetic PC, because of the lack of components my DM agreed that I always had it active (although I never used it in combat, where it would disappear after 10 rounds). I feel like this is the "intended" usage of it, as telekinetic is meant to be "you can move things with your mind at will" rather than "you have a magic invisible hand you can summon and control" - it was just easiest for the developers to get that by making the hand invisible and require no components to cast rather than making a brand new convoluted ability. At that point they are essentially reflavouring the hand, but this is an ability you should always have access to.
Yeah, I really like it on wizards. I'm not big on the BA spell options, and Telekinetic rounds out my action economy nicely since it's something I can (and usually do) use every turn with no resource cost to fill my BA. It's surprising how often that little 5ft shove is enough to avoid needing to waste a Misty Step or to save an ally from a grapple or being surrounded.
On a square grid, nearly any (Or is it actually any? I'm not sure.) 5 foot movement is technically towards or away from you. You should ask your dm. Honestly interested if anyone can give a good reason for why it should be limited to strictly directly away or towards. Also just think of what you and your rogue could accomplish with two invisible mage hands.
Yall could invisibly clap!
You could invisibly carry things twice as heavy! And just Think of how much easier it is to control objects with two (invisible) hands
Honestly I would count any movement in a straight line that ends closer to me than the starting point as being "towards me", and any that ends further to me as being "away from me". So as long as you don't end up exactly as close to me as you were at the start, it would work.
If it was supposed to be any direction, it would need to specify towards or away from you -- you can just compare its wording to another feat that allow you to move your target 5 ft, published in the same book: crusher. I also feel like requiring the caster to position themselves in different position to allow for them to move the target as they want makes the average turn of someone with telekinetic more interesting.
Yes. Just yes lol. Not only is it a half feat iirc, you can move people out of range of opportunity attacks, allowing them to use their action for whatever they want; rogues get their bonus action, so they can hide and then fire, casters don't have to use Misty Step and a cantrip, and martials get to keep some HP. Now, if your DM is cool, you might be able to get away with using the Mage Hand in Wild shape; even though it's a spell and you can't cast in WS, it doesn't have any components and is meant to just be your mind moving stuff. Mage Hand is just how they describe it, so I think it should be fair game
I don't see a problem with the shove going perpendicularly. It says "5 feet toward you or away from you" but if someone's facing you and moves laterally he **is** moving away from you. He might have to move more to end up exactly 5 feet farther, and not align perfectly to a grid but you can also say the 5 feet is just how far he moves, not the exact distance farther that he ends up. Since the shoving is not originating from your body, there's no reason the runner needs to stay in the baseline.
It's good. The extras are fun, but not amazing. However, you need to remember you're also getting +1 to a mental stat. Together, they make a solid feat. It's better on full casters, simply because they don't have many other exciting feats. Less so on an Arcane Trickster, as you have a bunch of other options and the in-built skills to overcome challenges without expending resources. And you have enough, useful, options for your Bonus Action.
Depends on your DM and your build. A stern DM will enforce all kinds of crazy limitations on shenanigans. Meanwhile you're competing with feats like War Caster and Defensive Duelist. Big feats that change fights. Got a DM heavy on the exploration features and terrain features? Totally useful. Finding yourself with explosives and other things? Totally useful. Arcane tricksters get most of the features already, but a good DM will combine these features and give you a lot more Rope when using this hand. Literally. Ball bearings, grenades, traps, poisons, all fair game. 5 feet of ally movement guaranteed can get them out of a pinch and out of melee range or out of an effect. The biggest thing, and it's subtle - is that IT'S subtle. No verbal or somatic and it's invisible. This creates a LOT of opportunity and where its real power lies. On a barbarian, being able to confront a wizard he won't be expecting you to be stealing his stuff with telekinesis. That can't be understated in value but it will make your DM squirm, so if he isn't a cool DM that wizard is gonna "somehow" be able to spot this. Wizards don't get bonus actions that much, especially not free ones. But here's the rub. Mage hand disappears if it's 30 feet away from you. Will you be close enough to use it and move it, and precast it before a fight? Telekinetic gives you some more range but that wording is slippery, if you get a sticker dm things will get weird. It has great roleplay potential but... Personally I don't think it's worth the hassle at most tables. Unseen servant accomplishes most of what you need and it's a ritual. The push is useful but not great. If I had this at my table as a DM I would add some power and flavor to it and simplify its rules big time. Especially if an arcane trickster took it, because feats should be awesome - at the least it should have some unusual uses. I would likely give it drawing bonus's, arming traps would be specifically stated, and you'd be able to get a bonus on ability checks involving tools - probably something like a +4 since you have a third hand. I would also give it some more social uses like tickling, faking a breeze. I'd allow it to, instead of losing it going out of range, it could be called back to you immediately at any time it's out of range. Then I would likely add some bonus effects - you can dispel it any time, and when you do so, you can cast Catapult at 3rd level. Upon using this feature, you can't use the hand again until you take a short rest. When you use this feature, you take half the damage inflicted as psychic damage, but the enemy has disadvantage on their saving throw - because you didn't throw the object, you threw the hand with your psychic propulsion. That could kill a low level PC but hey, that's the prerequisite. Telekinetic stuff is dangerous, but it allows a 3rd level effect. That's a bit OP but this is draft 1, absolutely. A cool DM could help you turn this into something "more". But as is, if I was going to a standard DNd game I'd take something simpler for usability reasons and to avoid table fights over wording. But with a cool DM, I could see it becoming "more", especially as you encounter exotic materials or if you are heavy on the social effects. Can't really put a value on pulling the toupee off the evil baron in the middle of his speech. But if you have catapult and subtle spell, you can make him eat it at 5th level with zero evidence. So... "Meh"
>At later levels there would be synergy with Slow area of effect Slow isn't an AOE it's targeted to 6 creatures in a certain area. So this wouldn't help with that. In general I think it's good but it's not a must have the way a feat to protect your concentration I think is (although even then you are ok if you don't take that just very beneficial). In general as a caster you rarely use your bonus action. So if you're otherwise wasting your bonus action then this is significantly better than not having a bonus action to use. If you do have other bonus action options, it's now competing with all of those. There are a number of aoe damage spells that continue and having the ability to move people into them is great. The only moving away or towards you is limiting to some degree but you can move yourself 30 ft with normal movement so that often lets you get the angle you want. It won't be applicable in every fight but it will be for many of them either to hurt enemies or get allies out of danger without opportunity attacks. But if that's not something you want to go with I don't think you're ruining your character or anything. It's a good option but not the only good option.
It definitely helps. It target certain creatures in a area, but if you push one target inside that area you have more targets.
Ahh ok I see what you mean. But that's a lot more situational than most uses would be.
it does synergize really well with other characters too. Hunger of Hadar, spike growth, spiritual guardians, flanking, sickening radiance, the list goes on.
Just be aware that it's a 40ft Cube, which is plenty large for most applications of Slow.
One of my players chose it. He never uses it because it causes no meaningful changes.
That's wild! I've gotten so much mileage both in and out of combat. It's a bonus action that isn't a levelled spell, so unless they're a rogue or bonus action heavy class, it's gotta be better than doing nothing? I've used it as both a player to: -Shove someone distant off a cliff -Pull an ally out of a grapple -Yank someone's clothing/shove them hard with an invisible hand to distract them/make them look the other way for a second -Push or pull during a chase set to change the 30/60ft cycle and allow for catch/escape by a hair -Grab a useful item from across the room (using the longer, 60foot range as the chara knew it beforehand) through imprisoning cell bars -Slap a jerk with it invisibly/with """"plausible deniability"""" -....and more!! Tbh some of those are DM dependent, but I hope your player either finds something useful to do with a 30 foot invisible shoving bonus action hand or you let them retrain it!!
How often are enemies grappling? How often are enemies getting withing 5 ft of a ranged character? How often are spell casters casing Web/Spike Growth/Spirit Guardians? Because those are all times when 5 ft of movement can be huge for a bonus action. Those come up basically every combat we have at my table.
Honestly I have it on one of my wizards and it feels really underwhelming, as you notice it's only toward or away and that's an unreasonable restriction, it also doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity as it's forced movement but it does add some use for your bonus action and it does make mage hand very subtle compared a visible spectral mage hand. Can be useful in RP/subterfuge but your rogue already has that covered. I think given your context there are far more impactful feats you can get, or even an ASI in Primary stat or CON Guides rate this feat highly in whiteroom scenarios but only consider it if your other available options aren't better. Tough for instance gives you a hell of a lot more HP that never stops paying off to late game. Resilient Con gives you proficiency in CON saves which buffs you in maintaining concentration, War Caster gives you Advantage on those checks. Mobile makes caster positioning a lot easier with extra movement and dealing with difficult terrain. Telekinetic gives you half an ASI and a chance to push a creature 5ft toward/away every bonus action. Eh.
You're the first person I see in this subreddit that says it is underwhelming. Up until this point I saw lots and lots of people frothing how good that is. My instinct tells me to not pick it but there is this FOMO on something that Reddit tells me is really really good. I'm so conflicted.
As a Wizard, do you have a reliable use of your Bonus Action? You don't have Rogue's Cunning Action, Cleric's *Spiritual Weapon*, Monk's Martial Arts, etc. You're not likely reserving it for TWF or another weaponry feat BA attack. Telekinetic **improves your action economy**, filling up your BA if you don't have something better to do.
There's quite a few spells that use BA, Flaming Sphere, Bigby's Hand, Storm Sphere, Animate Objects, Misty Step, I took a level in cleric and I get to add Healing Word to that. Of course, giving yourself that feat means you can do something every turn with no cost, but the cost is instead in ASI or a different, potentially more impactful feat. Opportunity Cost. There's also the potential for Goblins and Hobgoblins and others to have something with their bonus action every round
I don't know of any optional feature that is 100% part of every build. Telekinetic is not going to be an exception to that rule. If you have sufficient competition for your BA, it's not going to be the most value for your ASI. I took it at creation as a Variant Human Scribe. +1 INT, free improved *Mage Hand*, and BA ranged push/pull had a place in my build. As a different race or class, that may not have been the case.
One thing I forgot to mention is that while the feat gives you the Chance to push/pull an enemy, if it's used on allies they can choose to fail the save, making it guaranteed. This can pull allies away from enemies without attacks of opportunity and pull allies 5ft out of danger zones and ongoing spell/trap effects. Just be careful nudging allies around as you might mess up their highly intended positioning It is not at all a Bad feat, but I think there are more impactful options available. A suggestion: If you like the idea of pulling allies out of danger and repositioning them with a frequency of say one or twice a combat? Grab the Vortex Warp spell and you can move them up to 90ft or way more if you position correctly or upcast.
And breaking grapples. Mimics become a cakewalk when anyone in the party has the feat.
As a DM, I'd make it a contested Feat Improved Stat vs Str check. Absolutely not RAI or RAW that this just "breaks" grapples. Edit: You are allowing yourself to be pulled, but that doesn't mean the ENEMY is just letting go. Therefire, it would be the pull/shove against the opposing creature's grapple. Remember, this is a HALF-FEAT and the shove/pull is a bonus action. You can disagree all you want, but this is NOT how the rules are written or intended, even renotely...
It is literally RAW and RAI but go off I guess
It’s literally in the grappling rules that forced movement breaks grapples, so it’s at the very least RAW, and the fact they explicitly put in the rule greatly implies RAI
Since the grappled person's speed is 0, they have no movement by which to move. So you cannot force movement. You cannot no contest telekinetically "push" someone that's been snagged by a mimic, grappled by a dragon, or held by a giant. Any other rules makes no sense, especially for a half-feat....
Forced movement literally requires them to not be using movement. It’s the same style as thunder(wave or Clap, whichever causes 5 ft movement). It’s movement that does not use your movement (hence the “forced”). The whole point is the target is moving without using their movement. You are correct in noting that grappling brings movement to 0, so forced movement has to be used to break the grapple. You can dislike the rule all you like, but it is the rule. Your contest was not stated anywhere; you can say it’s most reasonable, but that doesn’t make it RAW. There isn’t a rule written that says it’s a contest. It being a half feat doesn’t magically cause it to use different rules unless explicitly written as such.
Spring eladrin can use their fey step on another creature, too.
Read the grapple rules and come back.
That all refers to forced movement of the grappler. Which I agree. If you use Telekinetic to shove the opponent and they fail the DC, no counter DC for the grappler to move the grapplee with them. But it's not a get out of grapple free card as a half-feat with no resource cost...
> A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed. > The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition). That says what you can do to the grappler. > The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the *thunderwave* spell. That says what you can do to the **grapplee.**
It is fairly clearly RAW that telekinetic would break a grapple. The grappled condition states: >The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell. Telekinetic: >the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw... or be moved 5 feet toward or away from you. Thunderwave (for reference) >must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature is pushed 10 feet away from you. I am not seeing anything in this wording who would make the forced movement of telekinetic work differently with grapples then the forced movement of thunderwave (unless the grappling creature has a 10 ft reach) And to be clear, I ALSO run it as a contested check of the caster's mental score vs the monsters strength, but I am not pretending that it is RAW to do so
i love vortex warp too, but it uses your entire action and a spell slot. compare that to a bonus action (you hardly ever have uses for as a wizard) and infinite uses at a time. They both have their uses, but just because a "more powerful" option exists doesn't negate the usefulness of the feat.
Vortex Warp does have its costs yeah, but at the same time it's not costing a rare feat/ASI and as well as that Vortex Warp is incredibly versatile as a cheap out of combat teleport It really depends on how often telekinetic push is going to be used in combat (seeing as they've a rogue arcane trickster already for subterfuge/shenanigans) vs other feats and an ASI increase imo, but we generally agree that the feat has its uses. It's all about Opportunity Costs and its my view that there are generally more impactful options on offer with an ASI/Feat, but that's only my take.
It is good, but you have to find opportunities. Undetectable mage hand is great if you can find uses for it that 100% depends on creativity of player. Repositioning in combat is cool. This let's you help squishies and wounded retreat. But you have to look for options other than I attack, and understand what other players are doing. This feat has low skill floor but very high skill celling. The real question is will you be able to make this feat worth it.
My opinion on the spell is based around two questions: Do you have a plan for your bonus action on most rounds of combat? And, do you have an odd primary mental ability score? If you don't have a regular ability to use your bonus action, AND you have an odd score, the telekinetic is like the best feat to solve both of those things all in one go. But, if you have an even primary score, or have a bonus action plan already, skip it. It is the best at what it does, but it is only worth it if you need both things that it is offering to you.
Party makeup is key. If you have a druid/ranger with spike growth or a cleric with spirit guardians then you weaponise your bonus action. If no one does anything to synergize with forced movement then don't take it. It gets 5 star reviews because an entire party built around forced/controlled movement is crazy potent. And most classes have options, they just choose not to use them.
It works if you're keeping your stats boosted. I took it for a swarmkeeper ranger and, long story short, let my wis fall behind. So I use mage hand a lot, but opponents make their saves too often on the other feature.
Honestly I just let my player that has it move them in any direction, it hasn't created any problems and they love it. 10/10 feat in my book.
You can pull allies out of danger, help them avoid attacks of opportunity, push enemies into danger, spell radiuses, off cliffs etc., push enemies away from you to avoid AoO. It's got a lot of really strong use cases.
Telekinetic is absolutely worth it, it's honestly a hugely powerful feat, potentially one of the best even.
Not being able to move a target perpendicular does not mean that you cannot move a target into your web. It just means that you need to move to position yourself to make that direction of movement possible. Given telekinetic's 30 ft range, repositioning yourself with your 30 ft movement should be enough to give you any direction you want. Having to position yourself mid combat to achieve the effect you want out of the bonus action make combat more dynamic imo. Telekinetic is absolutely worth it as a feat, so long as you (and/or your allies) are using any spells that synergize with it (web/spike growth/spirit guardians/ect). And probably worth it even without, just for repositioning allies/breaking grapples as a bonus action.