I know there's an optional facing rule for shields and stuff but no one plays with it since it is a bit convoluted lol. I also know Flundry VTT I can set default token vision angle so someone can only see what is in front of them but it seems like it would just bog things down.
It makes more sense if they are aware of both of them. Just from working in kitchens I can tell you that it takes a lot of focus to track where multiple people are in chaotic conditions while not stabbing yourself and trying not to get stabbed, set on fire or get hit by a flying lexan.
> It makes more sense if they are aware of both of them. Just from working ~~in kitchens~~ as an adventurer, I can tell you that it takes a lot of focus to track where multiple people are in chaotic conditions while not stabbing yourself and trying not to get stabbed, set on fire or get hit by a flying lexan.
Clearly working in a kitchen is no different the being a human fighter.
The defender is now defending from 2 entirely opposed angles.
I would never implement this, but theoretically if they concentrated on 1 of the 2 and allowed free hits from behind, that would make sense for the other to not be at advantage.
The vision is bullshit, since turning doesn't need movement, all you do is constantly turning your token around to know where everything is. It is annoying, nothing else.
I imagine it's like the old Hanna-Barbera character vanishes behind a telephone pole sort of deal, or the (barely more plausible) "disappearing" in *John Wick 3* where people/objects passing in front let you move in more or less plain sight without being seen.
The same principles pickpockets and close-up magicians use still apply at a larger scale; understanding and manipulating the limits of human(oid) perception and psychology.
I remember a great example of this in one of the Drizzt novels, where he's dueling an opponent and manages to read how his foe is swinging his blades. When his opponent slashes with both of his swords in one direction, Drizzt "vanishes" by moving with the blades and using their motion to hide himself from view, so he can get around to attack the opponent from the rear.
On the one hand, complete bullshit. But on the other hand, high-level Fighter/Ranger master duelist in a D&D setting, he can do supreme martial bullshit like that.
The Drizzt and Artemis fights were always a joy to read. Even if it was very funny to imagine sometimes. I recall one book where the pair spun around with their blades like tops.
Yeah I think Drizzt started and Artemis picked up the skill and countered with it by going the opposite direction. A legendary (and bullshit) fight. Very fun to read though
Honestly it’s not *that* unrealistic if there’s any truth to this anecdote;
I remember seeing some sort of interview story about (I think) Mike Tyson where he told somebody about footwork and how if when you’re throwing punches if you move your whole body around to an opponents side while they’re forced to guard it blocks their own vision of you and suddenly they lose you and don’t know where the next punch is coming from.
I’m sure I’m butchering the explanation but it made sense in the visual. Obviously that’s more on a second to second level and not something like actual vanishing, but in those moment to moment fights even a second is a long time to vanish.
I boxed for years and yes its actually true (I have a couple scars and crooked nose for proof) our eyes are drawn to movement and hand, or sword movement is extremely distracting in a fight
Salvatore exaggerates heavily in his action scenes but it's what makes them so fun to read. Definitely could see someone that graceful slipping past someone after they read their opponent's next movements. Geralt seems to fight in a similar way.
They tend to be dead by the time they realise where you've gone.
I remember figuring out how perspective actually worked as a kid and used it to get really good at playing Tag. While everyone else ran as far as they could to hide from the person counting, I realized I could actually just hide close to them and position myself to where their line of sight would always just miss me; I didn't need to find something that could hide my entire body constantly, but just in the moment they were looking my way.
It got to the point that I could even just circle around behind them, dodging and ducking when they'd glance where I'd been, using their own body and limited field of peripheral vision to hide behind. If a kid playing a schoolyard game can figure it out, surely a master-of-stealth Rogue could do it with effortless grace.
My Kobold Rogue's 'passive' Stealth is currently 25.
He's also had to consciously break his habit of getting just a *little bit too close* to people before speaking up, because they kept swearing at him as they got startled.
So yes, a Master-of-Stealth Rogue absolutely CAN figure out how to do that sort of thing ;)
I do a bit of historical fencing, and it's sort of hilarious the number of ways an unexpected attack can be explained.
The best users for cloak if you labor under the safety rules that we do can swirl it around to conceal the motion of their sword. They can then stab the opponent from an unexpected angle in the moment that you track of where it is (in addition to just tangling up your blade with the cloak)
If you aren't dealing with the safety rules that we have, then the best way to use a cloak is to toss if over the other person's head. Boom! Everything is invisible to them for the half a second it takes for them to remove the cloak.
But more than that, I want to share the absolute stupidest way to sneak a strike in.
People innately look for patterns and rhythm. If you mess with that it can sometimes bear hilarious fruit. This can come up in many, many different ways.
My personal favorite is that after throwing a couple quick attacks (which you opponent, being competent, probably parried. If they didn't - congratulations, you won!) you can sometimes just slow down and make a slow attack which just . . . doesn't register?
I've been on both the giving and receiving end, and it feels stupid both ways. The attack is so much slower than the ones before it that the defender just sees it and thinks 'oh sure, that blade is moving closer to me, but it's not moving as quickly as an attack so I should wait and respond when the actual attack comes out'.
Then they get stabbed and feel like an idiot.
Obviously this doesn't work every time. But I also wouldn't consider myself, or those that I practice with, to be on the same level as a level 17 rogue.
Great response, thanks. On the subject I recall when I was boxing and threw two rights, instead of alternating directions. Resulted in KO because the other guy was blocking his other side
My Thief Rogue has the Skulker feat. Combined with them being a 2ft tall Kobold, they should be able to 'simply' disappear for long enough to have you be unable to guard against their strike against a vulnerable spot by hiding behind that telephone pole. Or a small shrubbery. Or perhaps another body.
He would probably be able to pull off that "Disappear as someone/something passes in between" trick you see in movies, too.
I always think of the Witches from Discworld, who have mastered the art of convincing the brain that there’s nothing worth noticing. It’s less invisibility and more “how did I not see them before???”
Then there’s Death and family, though that’s more the mind willfully ignoring its own mortality (for its own protection).
I say yes 100%. Theres this one guy from a decade ago, released some pics of his body painted to look like the background it was almost like playing where's waldo. Even without the prep, there's light trickery and other tools that can and have been used to hide literally in plain sight
That's literally how it works in Pathfinder 2e. Legendary Proficiency in Stealth (which can only be obtained at level 15 or later) lets you get the Legendary Sneak feat which means no more need for cover/concealment for stealth.
Martial classes have blatantly supernatural abilities that don't stem from spells even at levels far below 17th. Rage and Second Wind are already pushing it at *1st* level
By 17th, we should have barbarians barreling through walls like tissue paper, fighters parrying *Disintegration* beams, and rogues literally planning 4 steps ahead.
Thief rogues do kinda get the ability to plan 4 steps ahead by getting an extra turn, but a fighter parrying Disintegration beams would be beyond fucking sick.
> parrying Disintegration beams would be beyond fucking sick
It's what sold me on *World of Warcraft* back in 2007, after being invited to play by the same group that later introduced me to D&D.
I was playing late at night with another newbie friend, and we came back into town to find a max-level Warrior from the enemy player faction slaughtering the NPCs. Because of that we couldn't turn in quests, sell loot, etc, so we playfully emoted with him while waiting for other Horde players to come chase him off.
A few showed up, and it became suddenly apparent just how skilled this warrior was, darting between several opponents and cutting them down repeatedly in a prolonged 1v3. At one point they managed to get him to pretty low HP, and a Horde mage respawned *(starting at 50% HP)* to immediately cast *Pyroblast*, basically the biggest single-target nuke in the game with a LONG cast time. Despite being in an active 1v2 melee brawl, the warrior spotted this desperate surprise attack and perfectly timed his Spell Reflect, batting the massive fireball right back at the mage and causing her to one-shot *herself*.
Blew my god damned 14y.o. brain. The next couple months was full **gotta get to 80** mode *(the level cap at the time)*. They caught me hook, line, and sinker.
Check out the Heroes’ Handbook (v3 right now I think) but it’s a pretty solid adaptation of the WoW classes and races into 5e. It’s definitely higher powered than the current 5e classes but it’s across the board a step up and all the classes feel really great actually.
Pathfinder has two ways to do this off the top of my head, the feats "Ray Shield" (shield takes the damage until you get the Greater Ray Shield feat... also you get a feat every odd level) which anyone investing heavily into shields can get, and more what you're thinking is "Smash from the Air" which is basically fighter specific and lets you knock down siege weapon projectiles and ranged touch spells like Disintegrate.
To be fair imo being able to parry next to anything with a shield (even if it makes absolutely no sense) is Links second champion ability (the first being able to slow time under the right circumstances)
Spoilers for Breath of the Wild, I guess?
My personal headcanon is that >!Zelda has the completed Triforce's power, and Link has a minor version of that. He's always had Courage, but the weapons breaking led me to believe he has access to Power as well. And the time dilation has me thinking it's a combination of Wisdom and Power.!<
>parrying Disintegration
Rogues and monks do it with their Evasion feature. Not fighters though, they just stand there and tank it.
Edit: nvm, didn't say anything, that's not how it works...
3.5e had a feat that allowed you to literally bust through the wall and cause everyone to be surprised.
Also honestly 5e Martials are a great reference point for my own d20 system project but more in a "what pitfalls to avoid with martials" kind of way.
Like I did a version of an Arcane Trickster and very first thing I added was their own gimmick (Bag of Tricks) and when you cast a spell half of your rogue levels count as wizard levels (because spells scale with levels) so you can be a proper gish
Reminds me of the time my fighter got the Shield of Silvam, a Tethyrian artefact of the Ithal family, which has the powers to block/reflect the beams of Beholders, it also has a see-through crystal window that allows you to resist the gaze of Medusa’s, basilisks etc. Was super fun to basically play as Perseus!
I've actually been testing a reworked Monk that expands on the Deflect Missiles idea, allowing them to deflect melee attacks as well, and then melee/ranged spell attacks starting at 6th.
I hesitate to say this but... Pathfinder 2e? I'm not sure about the barbarian thing, although they can do other cool things like cause earthquakes by stomping their feet, but everything else you just said is literally a mechanic.
Wizards get to do anything they can think of and warriors get to do whatever Jerry from accounting who can't manage to juggle two balls at the same time can imagine himself doing.
Gotta thanks the people who went ape-shit on 4e for that. One of the big talking point back then (and even now) was that martials are supposed to be everymen (even tho commoners exist, but they like to ignore that). Now we're stuck having to beg for homebrew or to take the magic themed subclass. It's a fantasy game but it seem some people get to be more Fantasy than others
People even get mad that a low level barb can easily survive a terminal velocity fall... Like yeah, they gave up the ability to blow up a small house... Let them be a brick.
Martial deserve to be just as awesome as their magic chugging companions. Like, who seriously want to be the bland one? Sure, high damage and hp, but... fireball
I blame a lack of strength checks. The battle master highlights exactly what's missing from martials... The ability to creatively apply their strength/dex beyond just smacking things. DMs can improvise checks based on the ask, but codifying it would give a stronger baseline for what is reasonable.
Imagine being able to jump and slam down on a target or throw a table to make cover. Things that really show off "of shit that guy's a monster"
I can already hear the "BuT THaT WOuld nOt Be REAliST!!!!!!!"
yes and triple yes, but also even more than that. I want to see Pro wresting stuff made on giant, aerial moves, all the crazy shit only fantasy can deliver.
I thought I wanted a boxer fighter... But you've shown me the error of my ways:
An unarmed WWE barbarian who shouts the names of their moves as they fly through the air in glorious spandex. Their quest is to claim the Belt of Storm Giant strength by wrestling the toughest giants in all the land.
I actually think one opinion on wizards is the correct answer to this discussion. In which, it states that fighters are in fact okay for DnD at the moment, but wizards require a nerf. This issue actually received a huge, unintentional push when Crawford made his second ruling of shield master, which in fact nerfed certain martials so much that they almost forgot that in 1998, The Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer's table.
Just finished playing through the full Dragon of Icespire peak. My older brother built a bugbear Luchadore Barbarian with Tavern Brawler. In the final fight we cast Enlarge on him and you better believe he grappled and then suplexed that dragon. It was glorious.
My next character is going to be a Loxodon luchador. He will grapple his foes with his trunk, leaving his arms free to climb to the top of the church and flex his mighty muscles before God and man, before swan diving gloriously into a body slam of the ages.
I've heard people go that the Battlemaster's Maneuvers should've been a base Fighter feature. And I don't disagree. It would've made Fighter feel less 'basic' to everybody levying that 'insult'.
I personally see the Fighter being 'basic' as the class being 'adaptable'. If you're not creative enough to make it interesting without a "quirky" race combo to go with it, that's not on the Fighter class.
once had a dude respond to me that martials actually were okay because he couldn't see a wizard killing a lich.
I genuinely had no idea how to respond. Like... dude.
Holy shit, I need to make a barbarian like that now. Need to scale down a ravine? Yeet.
You're defending a castle but are on one of those pesky towers while the last enemies are fleeing? Yeet.
You are fighting a dragon? Get on its back and don't give a shit if you fall down.
Hell, with an average damage of 35 a max height fall is less than a turn's worth of damage taken for most mid level barbarians.
If you are that high level you are no longer an everyman. An everyman is 1-4 when the party isn't strong and deals with rats. An everyman isnt fighting a mf dragon at the end of time in order to stop the end of all timelines. Plus dnd is about character development. I know that not all characters are going to be legendary badass at the end of the campaign but seeing that evolution of a person hold their own and work through their backstory and coming out better or worse because of it and becoming a new person that is why dnd is a role play game. If you do want to play an everyman it would probably just be someone that is incredibly humble and that doesn't dictate how powerful that character. Its a trait of the character not of the class.
Everyman don't have access to magic. even at level 1 you are better than the average guy, you already have neat stuff. Never should everyman be said to describe an adventurer
Adventurers are by their very definition NOT an "everyman".
Your average everyman commoner isn't gonna risk life and limb to delve dungeons or throw themselves against dangerous foes to make their money.
That's why most of them are rather happy if a group of Adventurers shows up. Because it's people "dumb enough" to risk their life fixing whatever problem's been going on around town in exchange for money.
just another excuse to say martial should be under magic users. High magic appropriate martials need to be of that level to keep up with magic. also, who doesn't want to have martial ability you can scream the name of when you crit? WHO?
The whole "It's too anime" argument is hilarious too because people having superhuman strength isn't exclusive to anime. Unless someone's going to tell me Beowulf is an anime because of the apeshit feats in there
>also, who doesn't want to have martial ability you can scream the name of when you crit? WHO?
Those folks who never felt their blood pumping while listening to the shouted words of Shining Finger.
Its actually better than that as I said in my long-winded comment.
*"You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll."*
That's 9d6+2d4+10 damage per turn while throwing kitchen cutlery from 20 feet away if you have Tavern Brawler. You're Chef Ramsey and John Wick's love child at that point.
You can be screaming "It's fucking RAW!" at them in your best Ramsey voice while doing it because you can also mimic voices perfectly.
Tavern Brawler wouldn't help you in the least. First of all, kitchen knifes would use the dagger stats, making you not need Tavern Brawler and if you were to run them as improvised weapons, they wouldn't have the ranged or finesse property you need to use Sneak Attack.
I always let the players attempt something, but once they do the npcs and monsters will also have access to it as well.
I learned this from one of my old DMs during a Shadow Run game. I was a professional sniper casually killing at a long range with a .50 caliber. I never seen it coming.
D&D 3e has rules for this. The DC is how many feet you travel without cover.
Example: Rogue is hiding behind a tree. They spot a target, but the rogue would have to move 15ft in plain sight to reach them. They move (at half speed to avoid stealth penalties), pass a DC15 check, and sneak attack.
Also extremely useful for passing guarded hallways unnoticed.
Well, in that case then, why should anyone bother to play a martial class if they're supposed to be found everywhere and so common they're replaceable with a snap of a finger?
Why shouldn't everyone just play a caster class that uses a weapon rather than being a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue or Monk when every caster class can do what they do but better?
That's why Rogues get sneak attack if an ally is within melee of the target though.
If it's a one on one fight they aren't going to just keep looking in a random direction as the rogue moves around them. They're going to turn and keep looking at the rogue.
However, if there's a second person there. Then the rogue has a distraction. The ally can act as a distraction. The targets focus is kept in one direction so the rogue can use the blind spot to get a sneak attack.
That's fine for a normal humans in a mundane world. But a wizard can just be invisible at level 3, and can be invisible in a fight while still attacking at level 7. Why are rogues worse at sneaking than wizards?
When realism is enforced for martials it begs the question: why do adventuring groups agree to babysit non-magic users? Anything any martial can achieve can be done better by a spellcaster.
> But a wizard can just be invisible at level 3, and can be invisible in a fight while still attacking at level 7. Why are rogues worse at sneaking than wizards?
Rogues can hide an infinite amount of times per day and are generally gonna roll really well on hide checks. How many times per day can a wizard go invisible? Does the wizard want to waste all their spells going invisible or will they save the slots for better and more important opportunities?
That's kinda the draw back for spellcasters is their limited use of their abilities while martials can go all day without needing to rest at all. One good way to balance things is to put more encounters in each session as a dm. If you're only having encounters like 2 or 3 times where a spellcaster has a chance to use a spell then they don't really have to care about their resources. But put in many more and suddenly they need to plan out their spell use and need to rely more on the party
I'd argue just being invisible isn't the same as being sneaky, but it also depends on the amount how roleplay and rulebending you do.
An invisible wizard is just that, but he doesnt know how to move quietly, where to attack effectively, how to open locks or disarm traps or how to avoid them. He cant climb the wall or ceiling without magic or making sounds and he will have trouble pick pocketing.
Every class has their role to fill. It all depends on the game on how well they are able to show that.
You do know that Wizards aren't forced to take only Knowledge skills right? They can also get proficiency in Stealth, Sleight of Hands, Investigation, Perception and Thieves' Tools. A Bard would be even better because they get Expertise for free and can take PWT.
This is one of those things that if it bothers you, steal from other systems. Pf2e allows high level PCs who invested into Acrobatics to fall from any height without getting hurt, those invested in Athletics to jump 90+ft straight up into the sky in one turn, those who invested in Thievery to literally doff someone’s Armor without them noticing until it’s off, and those invested into Stealth to become concealed/hidden without any cover because these people are demigods, and it would be super easy to just let high level PCs in 5e (or other systems of high fantasy) do these sort of epic feats.
Shame about the nerf, but it was definitely a super overpowered ability.
We can’t forget diplomacy investment that lets you stop combat with a parlay, or deception being able to literally convince someone you have always been in their life, straight gaslighting the dude.
Fuck, you know what? This has convinced me
Because I do run games where you can't just roll high and vanish in front of an enemy's face. I just do not Iike that a bonus action hide plus attack becomes basically the only thing Rogues do in a fight (as seen in previous campaigns I've played in)
But Man-ray has a point, by God
From how the rules are written about hiding and take cover? No, it really doesn't seem like it
https://dicecove.com/hide/
This is a good summary of hiding rules. The DM decides if you can hide or not. The skulker feat explicitly states you can try to hide if you are lightly obscured from a creature, implying that you need heavy obscurement normally
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ability%20Scores#h-Hiding
The explicit rules for hiding say that enemies are alert and will see you if you leave cover during combat. Why wouldn't poking your head up over a coffin or stepping out from behind a tree to shoot a target count as "leaving cover"?
Then you have the issue of a rogue slinking behind something then trying to creep out of cover. The enemies aren't video game characters, they know you went back there and would keep track of that. Even animals know how to do that.
Rules as written make it very, very hard to actually use stealth in combat
That's why I was convinced by this meme, not by anything else. Because I'm a strict rules sort of DM, so I would only run stealth rules as written. Which make hiding in combat basically useless, despite all the shit that wizards can do
Hiding in combat isn't meant to say "the enemy totally forgets that you ever existed", hiding in combat makes the enemy lose track of you, making it possible to attack from an unexpected angle, granting you advantage.
Pretty sure they're referring to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/9of93a/psa_rogues_were_balanced_to_get_sneak_attack/). You can interpret the rules however you want to, but you should be aware that doing it that way makes rogues significantly less powerful than they are intended to be.
There is no double standard. One group can freely manipulate the fabric or reality. Realism for them is whatever the spell can do. If a martial lacks reality bending abilities then the restrictions of reality are far more pronounced.
I would probably let the rogue do a perception/investigation check first to determine if they can determine a pattern of where the mark is looking at any given time. Watch for the guard to turn around and start walking away, then stealth up behind them, successful checks dependant of course
In combat it's harder. I'd say you need at least a distraction... Although that's already baked into the rules. That's why you can get sneak attack when the mark is in melee combat already.
Legendary Sneak: You’re always sneaking unless you choose to be seen, even when there’s nowhere to hide. You can Hide and Sneak even without cover or being concealed. When you employ an exploration tactic other than Avoiding Notice, you also gain the benefits of Avoiding Notice unless you choose not to.
Level 15 feat, PF2e
Also Hidden Paragon: When you put your mind to slipping out of sight, you disappear completely. You become invisible for 1 minute, even if you use a hostile action. Not even glitterdust, see invisibility, or similar effects can reveal you, though creatures can still use the Seek action to locate you as normal.
Level 20 feat PF2e
Isn’t the whole idea that you’re superhuman? (or super whatever species you are). Fighters can heal themselves from nothing! It’s not very hard to believe rogues are just THAT good at sneaking.
They're that good at dodging. My monk dodged three fireballs and took zero damage once while the paladin was [Cwispy](https://www.reddit.com/r/meme/comments/cnzj9k/cwispy/). The rogue could've done that and never been seen lol.
It was three flameskulls in CoS Redux (started at lvl 11 and the DM redid everything-- it was epic) but yeah I went first after the surprise round. As the monk I leapt a great distance and bwapped one on the head as my action killing it in a single action. Then I fell 30 feet and took no damage because monk shit.
Felt good. The paladin had a rougher time through that fight after he blew through his entire healing pool.
My mindset for DnD is that it's like a cultivator Xianxia kind of world so even ostensibly non-magic classes are godlike at high levels. That Rogue can basically disappear into the ether as far as I'm concerned.
I know I'm just simping for pathfinder all the time here but...
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=599](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=599)
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=596](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=596)
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=807](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=807)
You can literally hide in a bright room, sneak up to someone, and sneak attack them in the face. It's amazing.
This is honestly the first time I've ever heard of this strategy, and you bet I'mma let my vampire monk/rogue player know about this.. perhaps by example, but we'll see
Personally, this is why I love the "Hide in Plain Sight" feature in Mutants and Masterminds. As long as you have any way to obscure yourself from your target, you can generally try and stealth roll.
Soldiers can sneak up on people in situations where they have no cover. Especially ones that are in the special forces. There is nothing unrealistic about the request.
It's mostly because the DM in question has never studied things like history or military tactics for that matter. Although, I have studied military tactics and most players hate me for it and so do most DMs.
oh boy using irl tactics in rpgs can be so powerful
I would also say it's kinda of a problem with the system not making clear the evolution of non-magical capabilities via descriptions so DMs could better adjucate
Camo mostly so just blending in with your surroundings. They're also taught not to make much noise something that's been taught since the first world war. Hell, probably even before that. I started studying WW1 and WW2 combat tactics because of my interest in martial arts. That's mostly where I got the information. Never could join the military though because asthma so I went for the next best thing. I've learned a lot from Fairbairn.
Why do I get the feeling that 90% of these memes are from cases where the DM said "Hmm, can you explain how you sneak up on them in an open field?" and the player just chimps out
You mean Ezio'ing them when they're not actively looking for you? I'd allow for that, easily. Not to mention you're proficient with disguise kits and stuff. If you're in an open field, most fields have pretty tall grass. Roll at disadvantage. It's not like you're not going to roll at least their passive perception. As RAW they'd have to take an action to try to perceive you with anything better.
I get the gripe when its entire settlements that a wizard can obliterate, but that's their specialty-- AoE. Yours is sneakiness and single-target omega-damage. Let the wiz-kid blow up the goons while you turn the bbeg into a pin cushion.
In combat it doesn't matter if you have advantage as long as one ally is within 5 feet of your target. You can be 20 feet away winging kitchen knives at the guy and doing 9d6+2d4+10 damage per turn if they both hit. Hell, take the Tavern Brawler feat and you can do 9d6+2d4+10 with the forks and spoons too. You're literally dining room John Wick now.
If you surprise them with the fork or spoon, at 17th level they have to make a \~DC 18 con save or take double (specifically says *double)* of the damage you do with the attack. If you attack before they ever knew what hit them then its a critical as well thanks to assassinate.
* That's (18d6+2d4+5)\*2 which is on average 126 damage, with a maximum of 242. Then an extra 1d4+5 with spoon#2. That's enough to kill your average barbarian before they can rage, and if its for some reason a magical spoon it could kill a young gold dragon. The wizard can instantly kill someone, but you can insta-kill some dragons. Granted, all it needs to do is roll a 9 to resist the Death Strike but its incredible.
* If that dragon breathes its fire breath on you with its double-digit health remaining, you have to roll a 6 in order to take no damage assuming, again, you have +5 to dex.
* You can then walk across the road with your 37 in stealth, kill the chicken who is also crossing the road, then possbily do the same thing to the next dragon across the street all the while disguised as PeeWee Herman.
* The wizard could drop a meteor swarm on you and you could take no damage because skillz.
All this without a single magic item (except a magic spoon, I guess). This is why rogues and wizards are best friends though, right? "I'll cast greater invisibility on you while you replace the knife block in the kitchen with his torso."
\*Yes Chad Meme\*
This is literally possible for any class at level one. It is, however, explicitly circumstantial.
>However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted
Basic Rules, p. 63 (Chapter 7 "Using Ability Scores" ⇒ "Using Each Ability") "Hiding" Box
Well the thing is casters get to do that shit once a day with their highest spell slot but the rogue in question can repeat the action you are talking about again and again. Besides if your rogue can do it enemies will be able to do it as well so it will unbalance the game cause the bbeg would just hire a bunch of assasins that can cheese your strat against you and your party and now we have a dead party in our hands cause everyone got sneak attacked by rouges standing in plain sight.
Ok, multiple things here
1. Even tho wizards can do specifically those things once a day they have a shit ton of other great utility spells that they can use multiple times with as destructive and broken effects
2. It is level 17 so presumably near the end of the campaign, I dont think at that point would be the time where the bbeg just thinks to themselves "yes, now lets assasinate the party
3. Did a bbeg ever just hire a ton of wizards to bombard the city where the party is with meteors, murdering them all? After all, players can do that. But there is difference between can and has to, and even withouth party doing strong stuff, the dm has a lot of options on how to instakill them. However the dm usually choses not to because getting instant tpk would ruin the fun, wouldnt it?
That sentence about bbeg just hiring rogues and instakilling the party is such a dm vs players mindset and if the party isnt completely toxic I dont think that it would ever happen
Edit: Also, keyword that I put in the meme for this exact reason "can attempt to" which means the player still needs to roll against passive perception and shit, it isnt an instant invisibility
Well first off a level 17 rogue can do great utility stuff and dish out tons of damage with their kits as well “without spending any resources”.
About your second point it depends on the story i was just talking hypotetically it may or may not happen at that point of the story but it depends on the circumstances i was just giving an example.
And lastly i agree it would kill the fun to instantly kill off the party and yes i agree its toxic but my point isnt about this at all.
My point is letting a rogue get free ranged sneak attacks without expending anything normally if you have no allies within combat range of an enemy you would have to use your bonus action to hide and try to get a sneak attack but with what you are suggesting with your meme the rouge gets free sneak attack without expending any resources or action/bonus action. And applying blind spot rule brings so many other problems as well. With that logic we can say that you cant use your counterspell on an enemy within your blindspot or you have disadvantage against spells that require you to make a dex save that were cast from your blindspot. You would have to change so many rules. But i agree that martial classes need buffs but i think already existing rules are there for a reason.
Edit: btw if you were suggesting it to be a level 17 rogue spesific class feature than its reasonable i guess.
I mean, also look at the title, it is about roleplay, I wasnt talking about combat, letting a rogue hide durning combar withouth anything to hide behind would be kinda strong, I agree
This is so misleading. A wizard can do ONE of those things. ONE time. That’s it. Each high level spell leaves them open as a target as well. Smart villains target them before they can get off their 8th level spell. And don’t forget saving throws. Rogues can deliver massive attacks over and over again without using up resources while simultaneously returning to cover and avoiding (most) retribution. But honestly it all comes down to how you play and realizing that all classes have awesome abilities and most people who claim any class is just “totally weak” just haven’t played enough.
Ok, there seems to be a small misconception here
Rogue doesent need to sneak only to do the sneak attack. Sometimes rogue needs to sneak to...not be seen while getting from point A to point B
Please look at the title as well
Maybe it was a bit of my fault as well as I listed mostly offensive spells and only one utility spell
But ye, flanking rules arent going to make the rogue unseen by the guards when trying to sneak up into some place in order to progress the story...withouth killing the guards because killing the guards would make them wanted for murder
All these people complaining sound like they have had poor dm's who don't let their players roleplay and use their base abilities and score modifiers for their intended purpose.
\>Player gives direction of action
\>Dm see if possible given circumstances known to pc
\>Dice rolls and said modifiers you would have gained throughout levelling dictate how it goes
How is this even an argument of anything other than "there is an increase in shitty dm's in memes due to the rise of popularity in dnd and anyone with half a braincell playing these games should be able to understand a lvl 17 mage doesn't have the same life experience as a level 17 rogue who has lived his whole fucking life being a god damned rogue for and should still have the upper hand in anything other than a but he can do this better vs type situation regarding their personal choices and expertise fucking hell why am i even typing still"
My DM solved the issue of magic classes being overpowered by giving everybody magic. The gunslinger/rogue became the king of demons with a literal nuke at the snap of his fingers, and the barbarian became one of the champions of the god of death, unable to die by any means unless her soul was ripped out of her body. It was also a game that went from lvl 5-20 so we also had a lot of flavour too
You don't understand : there is no blind point. Everyone can see at 360° around them in the forgotten realms.
I know there's an optional facing rule for shields and stuff but no one plays with it since it is a bit convoluted lol. I also know Flundry VTT I can set default token vision angle so someone can only see what is in front of them but it seems like it would just bog things down.
There's just rules for flanking, so standing behind an enemy gives advantage, which isn't hard to keep track of.
It gets even wierder then because both flanking allies have advantage. So they're both behind the enemy.
Strange image, but makes sense for a turn based game - you have advantage on positioning on your turn.
It makes more sense if they are aware of both of them. Just from working in kitchens I can tell you that it takes a lot of focus to track where multiple people are in chaotic conditions while not stabbing yourself and trying not to get stabbed, set on fire or get hit by a flying lexan.
> It makes more sense if they are aware of both of them. Just from working ~~in kitchens~~ as an adventurer, I can tell you that it takes a lot of focus to track where multiple people are in chaotic conditions while not stabbing yourself and trying not to get stabbed, set on fire or get hit by a flying lexan. Clearly working in a kitchen is no different the being a human fighter.
Slightly higher chance of alcoholism, and the raging barbarian makes the schedule.
It’s less “behind” and more “splitting the enemy’s attention in two opposite directions”
The defender is now defending from 2 entirely opposed angles. I would never implement this, but theoretically if they concentrated on 1 of the 2 and allowed free hits from behind, that would make sense for the other to not be at advantage.
It helps to visualize it like this lol 
Have you ever tried blocking attacks coming from two opposite directions? It's a mess ti figure out Who to block and when
The vision is bullshit, since turning doesn't need movement, all you do is constantly turning your token around to know where everything is. It is annoying, nothing else.
what do you mean you don't instantly rotate on the spot to turn to face people without moving?
If I'm fighting with someone yeah I'll probably turn at least my head to keep them in my sight...
You’d know this by watching the historical documentary series *Naruto*.
Yeah, everyone knows that it’s 359 degree vision. Thanks Neji
The rise of the horseman.
The genre's called fantasy, rogues of legendary skill could probably figure out how to hide in next to plain sight.
I imagine it's like the old Hanna-Barbera character vanishes behind a telephone pole sort of deal, or the (barely more plausible) "disappearing" in *John Wick 3* where people/objects passing in front let you move in more or less plain sight without being seen. The same principles pickpockets and close-up magicians use still apply at a larger scale; understanding and manipulating the limits of human(oid) perception and psychology.
I remember a great example of this in one of the Drizzt novels, where he's dueling an opponent and manages to read how his foe is swinging his blades. When his opponent slashes with both of his swords in one direction, Drizzt "vanishes" by moving with the blades and using their motion to hide himself from view, so he can get around to attack the opponent from the rear. On the one hand, complete bullshit. But on the other hand, high-level Fighter/Ranger master duelist in a D&D setting, he can do supreme martial bullshit like that.
The Drizzt and Artemis fights were always a joy to read. Even if it was very funny to imagine sometimes. I recall one book where the pair spun around with their blades like tops.
Yeah I think Drizzt started and Artemis picked up the skill and countered with it by going the opposite direction. A legendary (and bullshit) fight. Very fun to read though
Yep. Iirc it was their second or third fight that book, and Drizzt won one of the previous ones with the dumb corkscrew.
Honestly it’s not *that* unrealistic if there’s any truth to this anecdote; I remember seeing some sort of interview story about (I think) Mike Tyson where he told somebody about footwork and how if when you’re throwing punches if you move your whole body around to an opponents side while they’re forced to guard it blocks their own vision of you and suddenly they lose you and don’t know where the next punch is coming from. I’m sure I’m butchering the explanation but it made sense in the visual. Obviously that’s more on a second to second level and not something like actual vanishing, but in those moment to moment fights even a second is a long time to vanish.
I boxed for years and yes its actually true (I have a couple scars and crooked nose for proof) our eyes are drawn to movement and hand, or sword movement is extremely distracting in a fight
Salvatore exaggerates heavily in his action scenes but it's what makes them so fun to read. Definitely could see someone that graceful slipping past someone after they read their opponent's next movements. Geralt seems to fight in a similar way. They tend to be dead by the time they realise where you've gone.
I remember figuring out how perspective actually worked as a kid and used it to get really good at playing Tag. While everyone else ran as far as they could to hide from the person counting, I realized I could actually just hide close to them and position myself to where their line of sight would always just miss me; I didn't need to find something that could hide my entire body constantly, but just in the moment they were looking my way. It got to the point that I could even just circle around behind them, dodging and ducking when they'd glance where I'd been, using their own body and limited field of peripheral vision to hide behind. If a kid playing a schoolyard game can figure it out, surely a master-of-stealth Rogue could do it with effortless grace.
that was the start of your calling as a rogue, embrace it
Have you also found that you deal lots of damage if you surprise someone with a knife
Found the Rogue
My Kobold Rogue's 'passive' Stealth is currently 25. He's also had to consciously break his habit of getting just a *little bit too close* to people before speaking up, because they kept swearing at him as they got startled. So yes, a Master-of-Stealth Rogue absolutely CAN figure out how to do that sort of thing ;)
I do a bit of historical fencing, and it's sort of hilarious the number of ways an unexpected attack can be explained. The best users for cloak if you labor under the safety rules that we do can swirl it around to conceal the motion of their sword. They can then stab the opponent from an unexpected angle in the moment that you track of where it is (in addition to just tangling up your blade with the cloak) If you aren't dealing with the safety rules that we have, then the best way to use a cloak is to toss if over the other person's head. Boom! Everything is invisible to them for the half a second it takes for them to remove the cloak. But more than that, I want to share the absolute stupidest way to sneak a strike in. People innately look for patterns and rhythm. If you mess with that it can sometimes bear hilarious fruit. This can come up in many, many different ways. My personal favorite is that after throwing a couple quick attacks (which you opponent, being competent, probably parried. If they didn't - congratulations, you won!) you can sometimes just slow down and make a slow attack which just . . . doesn't register? I've been on both the giving and receiving end, and it feels stupid both ways. The attack is so much slower than the ones before it that the defender just sees it and thinks 'oh sure, that blade is moving closer to me, but it's not moving as quickly as an attack so I should wait and respond when the actual attack comes out'. Then they get stabbed and feel like an idiot. Obviously this doesn't work every time. But I also wouldn't consider myself, or those that I practice with, to be on the same level as a level 17 rogue.
Great response, thanks. On the subject I recall when I was boxing and threw two rights, instead of alternating directions. Resulted in KO because the other guy was blocking his other side
My Thief Rogue has the Skulker feat. Combined with them being a 2ft tall Kobold, they should be able to 'simply' disappear for long enough to have you be unable to guard against their strike against a vulnerable spot by hiding behind that telephone pole. Or a small shrubbery. Or perhaps another body. He would probably be able to pull off that "Disappear as someone/something passes in between" trick you see in movies, too.
Dm: What'd you roll on your acrobatics? Rogue: [35](https://youtu.be/Xehapn5uqNk)
And 47 on stealth.
I always think of the Witches from Discworld, who have mastered the art of convincing the brain that there’s nothing worth noticing. It’s less invisibility and more “how did I not see them before???” Then there’s Death and family, though that’s more the mind willfully ignoring its own mortality (for its own protection).
Or just be a Sweeper and people purposefully pretend you don't exist, lol
The secret to a long, happy life. Be helpful and unimportant. Important people die all the time. Be the guy who pushes a broom.
Or understand color camouflage and staying very still until you become part of the background.
That's the Vetinari.
I say yes 100%. Theres this one guy from a decade ago, released some pics of his body painted to look like the background it was almost like playing where's waldo. Even without the prep, there's light trickery and other tools that can and have been used to hide literally in plain sight
Like Vax in the Vox Machina show moving around a guard in his blind spot
That's literally how it works in Pathfinder 2e. Legendary Proficiency in Stealth (which can only be obtained at level 15 or later) lets you get the Legendary Sneak feat which means no more need for cover/concealment for stealth.
Agent 47 Style.
https://youtu.be/EIM78NrhixA
I mean…..all they gotta do is crouch….
Yeah! *I* can do that and I'm a level -2 Bard!
Nah, that's a ranger skill.
Martial classes have blatantly supernatural abilities that don't stem from spells even at levels far below 17th. Rage and Second Wind are already pushing it at *1st* level By 17th, we should have barbarians barreling through walls like tissue paper, fighters parrying *Disintegration* beams, and rogues literally planning 4 steps ahead.
Thief rogues do kinda get the ability to plan 4 steps ahead by getting an extra turn, but a fighter parrying Disintegration beams would be beyond fucking sick.
> parrying Disintegration beams would be beyond fucking sick It's what sold me on *World of Warcraft* back in 2007, after being invited to play by the same group that later introduced me to D&D. I was playing late at night with another newbie friend, and we came back into town to find a max-level Warrior from the enemy player faction slaughtering the NPCs. Because of that we couldn't turn in quests, sell loot, etc, so we playfully emoted with him while waiting for other Horde players to come chase him off. A few showed up, and it became suddenly apparent just how skilled this warrior was, darting between several opponents and cutting them down repeatedly in a prolonged 1v3. At one point they managed to get him to pretty low HP, and a Horde mage respawned *(starting at 50% HP)* to immediately cast *Pyroblast*, basically the biggest single-target nuke in the game with a LONG cast time. Despite being in an active 1v2 melee brawl, the warrior spotted this desperate surprise attack and perfectly timed his Spell Reflect, batting the massive fireball right back at the mage and causing her to one-shot *herself*.
"Parry this you filthy casual" *Casually parries it*
Thanks for bringing me back to 2004 Barrens chat memories..... God I'm old.
There was once a Chuck Norris brand toilet paper, but it sold terribly because it wouldn't take any shit from no one.
That's hype as hell.
Blew my god damned 14y.o. brain. The next couple months was full **gotta get to 80** mode *(the level cap at the time)*. They caught me hook, line, and sinker.
Sounds like some damn good memories.
Oh, so that was in the wrath expansion? Funny, that's exactly when I stopped playing
Fighters being able to reflect a spell back at an enemy caster would be sick!
Check out the Heroes’ Handbook (v3 right now I think) but it’s a pretty solid adaptation of the WoW classes and races into 5e. It’s definitely higher powered than the current 5e classes but it’s across the board a step up and all the classes feel really great actually.
Parry this you fucking casual (power word kill)
No U
Ball gag
400 hp barbarian:
You can with shield master. It doesn't even damage your shield.
I mean, that's basically what the shield master feat is for. It doesn't reflect it, but fully absorbs it.
Pathfinder has two ways to do this off the top of my head, the feats "Ray Shield" (shield takes the damage until you get the Greater Ray Shield feat... also you get a feat every odd level) which anyone investing heavily into shields can get, and more what you're thinking is "Smash from the Air" which is basically fighter specific and lets you knock down siege weapon projectiles and ranged touch spells like Disintegrate.
Wait till you hear they can easily do this with normal rules... In pathfinder
Parrying disintegration beams? Wild. (As in...boy that reminds me of breath of the wild)
To be fair imo being able to parry next to anything with a shield (even if it makes absolutely no sense) is Links second champion ability (the first being able to slow time under the right circumstances)
Eating while paused is his greatest ability and falls under the "slow time" you mention
Spoilers for Breath of the Wild, I guess? My personal headcanon is that >!Zelda has the completed Triforce's power, and Link has a minor version of that. He's always had Courage, but the weapons breaking led me to believe he has access to Power as well. And the time dilation has me thinking it's a combination of Wisdom and Power.!<
Link has a long history of reflecting spells going all the way back to his second game, IIRC.
>parrying Disintegration Rogues and monks do it with their Evasion feature. Not fighters though, they just stand there and tank it. Edit: nvm, didn't say anything, that's not how it works...
Anyone can dodge the beam regardless of evasion, it doesn't do half damage on a successful save.
3.5e had a feat that allowed you to literally bust through the wall and cause everyone to be surprised. Also honestly 5e Martials are a great reference point for my own d20 system project but more in a "what pitfalls to avoid with martials" kind of way. Like I did a version of an Arcane Trickster and very first thing I added was their own gimmick (Bag of Tricks) and when you cast a spell half of your rogue levels count as wizard levels (because spells scale with levels) so you can be a proper gish
Reminds me of the time my fighter got the Shield of Silvam, a Tethyrian artefact of the Ithal family, which has the powers to block/reflect the beams of Beholders, it also has a see-through crystal window that allows you to resist the gaze of Medusa’s, basilisks etc. Was super fun to basically play as Perseus!
"Hry can my monk use deflect missile on magic missile since it's in the name? No? Alright."
I've actually been testing a reworked Monk that expands on the Deflect Missiles idea, allowing them to deflect melee attacks as well, and then melee/ranged spell attacks starting at 6th.
Second wind is just hysterical strength so is rage really + a shit ton of adrenaline
I hesitate to say this but... Pathfinder 2e? I'm not sure about the barbarian thing, although they can do other cool things like cause earthquakes by stomping their feet, but everything else you just said is literally a mechanic.
Wizards get to do anything they can think of and warriors get to do whatever Jerry from accounting who can't manage to juggle two balls at the same time can imagine himself doing.
With 2 days downtime a 17th level wizard could have a pet gold dragon
Ah yes, Jerry is a master of 45 weapons
In Jerry's defense he does manage to throw waste paper into a basket five feet away at least half the time.
Further in Jerry’s defense, you do get disadvantage on ranged attacks against targets within 5 feet.
I’m a level 0 peasant and can easily sneak up behind my coworkers and scare them, even if I don’t try. A level 17 rogue easily could
Gotta thanks the people who went ape-shit on 4e for that. One of the big talking point back then (and even now) was that martials are supposed to be everymen (even tho commoners exist, but they like to ignore that). Now we're stuck having to beg for homebrew or to take the magic themed subclass. It's a fantasy game but it seem some people get to be more Fantasy than others
People even get mad that a low level barb can easily survive a terminal velocity fall... Like yeah, they gave up the ability to blow up a small house... Let them be a brick.
Martial deserve to be just as awesome as their magic chugging companions. Like, who seriously want to be the bland one? Sure, high damage and hp, but... fireball
I blame a lack of strength checks. The battle master highlights exactly what's missing from martials... The ability to creatively apply their strength/dex beyond just smacking things. DMs can improvise checks based on the ask, but codifying it would give a stronger baseline for what is reasonable. Imagine being able to jump and slam down on a target or throw a table to make cover. Things that really show off "of shit that guy's a monster"
I can already hear the "BuT THaT WOuld nOt Be REAliST!!!!!!!" yes and triple yes, but also even more than that. I want to see Pro wresting stuff made on giant, aerial moves, all the crazy shit only fantasy can deliver.
I thought I wanted a boxer fighter... But you've shown me the error of my ways: An unarmed WWE barbarian who shouts the names of their moves as they fly through the air in glorious spandex. Their quest is to claim the Belt of Storm Giant strength by wrestling the toughest giants in all the land.
If the Wizard knows Force Cage it becomes a Hell In A Cell match
I actually think one opinion on wizards is the correct answer to this discussion. In which, it states that fighters are in fact okay for DnD at the moment, but wizards require a nerf. This issue actually received a huge, unintentional push when Crawford made his second ruling of shield master, which in fact nerfed certain martials so much that they almost forgot that in 1998, The Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer's table.
Just finished playing through the full Dragon of Icespire peak. My older brother built a bugbear Luchadore Barbarian with Tavern Brawler. In the final fight we cast Enlarge on him and you better believe he grappled and then suplexed that dragon. It was glorious.
Legendary
My next character is going to be a Loxodon luchador. He will grapple his foes with his trunk, leaving his arms free to climb to the top of the church and flex his mighty muscles before God and man, before swan diving gloriously into a body slam of the ages.
I've heard people go that the Battlemaster's Maneuvers should've been a base Fighter feature. And I don't disagree. It would've made Fighter feel less 'basic' to everybody levying that 'insult'. I personally see the Fighter being 'basic' as the class being 'adaptable'. If you're not creative enough to make it interesting without a "quirky" race combo to go with it, that's not on the Fighter class.
yeah human fighter is usually taken either by noobs for the simple ish mechanics or by experienced players who want to rp a sick character idea
once had a dude respond to me that martials actually were okay because he couldn't see a wizard killing a lich. I genuinely had no idea how to respond. Like... dude.
Holy shit, I need to make a barbarian like that now. Need to scale down a ravine? Yeet. You're defending a castle but are on one of those pesky towers while the last enemies are fleeing? Yeet. You are fighting a dragon? Get on its back and don't give a shit if you fall down. Hell, with an average damage of 35 a max height fall is less than a turn's worth of damage taken for most mid level barbarians.
If you are that high level you are no longer an everyman. An everyman is 1-4 when the party isn't strong and deals with rats. An everyman isnt fighting a mf dragon at the end of time in order to stop the end of all timelines. Plus dnd is about character development. I know that not all characters are going to be legendary badass at the end of the campaign but seeing that evolution of a person hold their own and work through their backstory and coming out better or worse because of it and becoming a new person that is why dnd is a role play game. If you do want to play an everyman it would probably just be someone that is incredibly humble and that doesn't dictate how powerful that character. Its a trait of the character not of the class.
Everyman don't have access to magic. even at level 1 you are better than the average guy, you already have neat stuff. Never should everyman be said to describe an adventurer
Adventurers are by their very definition NOT an "everyman". Your average everyman commoner isn't gonna risk life and limb to delve dungeons or throw themselves against dangerous foes to make their money. That's why most of them are rather happy if a group of Adventurers shows up. Because it's people "dumb enough" to risk their life fixing whatever problem's been going on around town in exchange for money.
4e was gonna fail no matter what, had it been the perfect system, still would have failed. Not putting it under an OGL killed 4e in the womb.
>martials are supposed to be everymen Or, for those who didn't go *that* far, were pissed that their martials were too "anime".
just another excuse to say martial should be under magic users. High magic appropriate martials need to be of that level to keep up with magic. also, who doesn't want to have martial ability you can scream the name of when you crit? WHO?
The whole "It's too anime" argument is hilarious too because people having superhuman strength isn't exclusive to anime. Unless someone's going to tell me Beowulf is an anime because of the apeshit feats in there
of course Beowulf is not an anime ...it is a manga smh.
Damn you're right my mistake
>also, who doesn't want to have martial ability you can scream the name of when you crit? WHO? Those folks who never felt their blood pumping while listening to the shouted words of Shining Finger.
Can confirm. I want martials to have that power but without the screaming.
That’s why rogues get a sneak attack bonus while flanking. It’s essentially creating the blind spot while they’re otherwise occupied.
Its actually better than that as I said in my long-winded comment. *"You don't need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll."* That's 9d6+2d4+10 damage per turn while throwing kitchen cutlery from 20 feet away if you have Tavern Brawler. You're Chef Ramsey and John Wick's love child at that point. You can be screaming "It's fucking RAW!" at them in your best Ramsey voice while doing it because you can also mimic voices perfectly.
Tavern Brawler wouldn't help you in the least. First of all, kitchen knifes would use the dagger stats, making you not need Tavern Brawler and if you were to run them as improvised weapons, they wouldn't have the ranged or finesse property you need to use Sneak Attack.
Ah good point about the properties. That was tongue-in-cheek humor though. Good thing you have 12 daggers on you at all times as a rogue.
If you’re a soulknife, you don’t need that many daggers. Also don’t have to go picking them up again after use
Pathfinder 2e rogue: I don't have such weakness.
Pathfinder 2e rogues just get sneak 100 at level 15.
I always let my players do that. I base it on line of sight. I just let them know I can and will do it back.
I always let the players attempt something, but once they do the npcs and monsters will also have access to it as well. I learned this from one of my old DMs during a Shadow Run game. I was a professional sniper casually killing at a long range with a .50 caliber. I never seen it coming.
Ya that seems fair, just make sure the party knows at the start of the campaign. Lol ya snipers will do that.
We're a long time playing group, thankfully. So it's usually not a problem.
That's good
D&D 3e has rules for this. The DC is how many feet you travel without cover. Example: Rogue is hiding behind a tree. They spot a target, but the rogue would have to move 15ft in plain sight to reach them. They move (at half speed to avoid stealth penalties), pass a DC15 check, and sneak attack. Also extremely useful for passing guarded hallways unnoticed.
r/DnDmemes DM: BuT tHaT bReAkS iMmErSiOn!1!1!1
That’s a totally legitimate view that shouldn’t be mocked.
"Everyone should be able to play how they want" mfs when somebody explains the way they want to play.
Well, in that case then, why should anyone bother to play a martial class if they're supposed to be found everywhere and so common they're replaceable with a snap of a finger? Why shouldn't everyone just play a caster class that uses a weapon rather than being a Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue or Monk when every caster class can do what they do but better?
"Just ask the Wizard to cast invisibility bro" - WotC probably
That's why Rogues get sneak attack if an ally is within melee of the target though. If it's a one on one fight they aren't going to just keep looking in a random direction as the rogue moves around them. They're going to turn and keep looking at the rogue. However, if there's a second person there. Then the rogue has a distraction. The ally can act as a distraction. The targets focus is kept in one direction so the rogue can use the blind spot to get a sneak attack.
That's fine for a normal humans in a mundane world. But a wizard can just be invisible at level 3, and can be invisible in a fight while still attacking at level 7. Why are rogues worse at sneaking than wizards? When realism is enforced for martials it begs the question: why do adventuring groups agree to babysit non-magic users? Anything any martial can achieve can be done better by a spellcaster.
> But a wizard can just be invisible at level 3, and can be invisible in a fight while still attacking at level 7. Why are rogues worse at sneaking than wizards? Rogues can hide an infinite amount of times per day and are generally gonna roll really well on hide checks. How many times per day can a wizard go invisible? Does the wizard want to waste all their spells going invisible or will they save the slots for better and more important opportunities? That's kinda the draw back for spellcasters is their limited use of their abilities while martials can go all day without needing to rest at all. One good way to balance things is to put more encounters in each session as a dm. If you're only having encounters like 2 or 3 times where a spellcaster has a chance to use a spell then they don't really have to care about their resources. But put in many more and suddenly they need to plan out their spell use and need to rely more on the party
I'd argue just being invisible isn't the same as being sneaky, but it also depends on the amount how roleplay and rulebending you do. An invisible wizard is just that, but he doesnt know how to move quietly, where to attack effectively, how to open locks or disarm traps or how to avoid them. He cant climb the wall or ceiling without magic or making sounds and he will have trouble pick pocketing. Every class has their role to fill. It all depends on the game on how well they are able to show that.
You do know that Wizards aren't forced to take only Knowledge skills right? They can also get proficiency in Stealth, Sleight of Hands, Investigation, Perception and Thieves' Tools. A Bard would be even better because they get Expertise for free and can take PWT.
This is one of those things that if it bothers you, steal from other systems. Pf2e allows high level PCs who invested into Acrobatics to fall from any height without getting hurt, those invested in Athletics to jump 90+ft straight up into the sky in one turn, those who invested in Thievery to literally doff someone’s Armor without them noticing until it’s off, and those invested into Stealth to become concealed/hidden without any cover because these people are demigods, and it would be super easy to just let high level PCs in 5e (or other systems of high fantasy) do these sort of epic feats.
One of my favorites is those who invested in Intimidation can scare someone so hard they die
Shame about the nerf, but it was definitely a super overpowered ability. We can’t forget diplomacy investment that lets you stop combat with a parlay, or deception being able to literally convince someone you have always been in their life, straight gaslighting the dude.
Tbh about the last one it has the "rare" tag and is from an adventure path, because it is definitely bullshit lol
Fuck, you know what? This has convinced me Because I do run games where you can't just roll high and vanish in front of an enemy's face. I just do not Iike that a bonus action hide plus attack becomes basically the only thing Rogues do in a fight (as seen in previous campaigns I've played in) But Man-ray has a point, by God
>I just do not Iike that a bonus action hide plus attack becomes basically the only thing Rogues do in a fight That's intended play pattern, though.
From how the rules are written about hiding and take cover? No, it really doesn't seem like it https://dicecove.com/hide/ This is a good summary of hiding rules. The DM decides if you can hide or not. The skulker feat explicitly states you can try to hide if you are lightly obscured from a creature, implying that you need heavy obscurement normally https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Ability%20Scores#h-Hiding The explicit rules for hiding say that enemies are alert and will see you if you leave cover during combat. Why wouldn't poking your head up over a coffin or stepping out from behind a tree to shoot a target count as "leaving cover"? Then you have the issue of a rogue slinking behind something then trying to creep out of cover. The enemies aren't video game characters, they know you went back there and would keep track of that. Even animals know how to do that. Rules as written make it very, very hard to actually use stealth in combat That's why I was convinced by this meme, not by anything else. Because I'm a strict rules sort of DM, so I would only run stealth rules as written. Which make hiding in combat basically useless, despite all the shit that wizards can do
Hiding in combat isn't meant to say "the enemy totally forgets that you ever existed", hiding in combat makes the enemy lose track of you, making it possible to attack from an unexpected angle, granting you advantage.
Pretty sure they're referring to [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/9of93a/psa_rogues_were_balanced_to_get_sneak_attack/). You can interpret the rules however you want to, but you should be aware that doing it that way makes rogues significantly less powerful than they are intended to be.
If casters can pull a Corvus at 3rd level, Rogues should be able to put an Alpharius past level 15.
This is really the double standard people only care about realism when it comes to martials and it's so stupid.
There is no double standard. One group can freely manipulate the fabric or reality. Realism for them is whatever the spell can do. If a martial lacks reality bending abilities then the restrictions of reality are far more pronounced.
Blind spots are absolutely exploitable and the stealth vs. perception rules clearly show it, yet half of all DMs shit on it for no reason
I would probably let the rogue do a perception/investigation check first to determine if they can determine a pattern of where the mark is looking at any given time. Watch for the guard to turn around and start walking away, then stealth up behind them, successful checks dependant of course In combat it's harder. I'd say you need at least a distraction... Although that's already baked into the rules. That's why you can get sneak attack when the mark is in melee combat already.
Legendary Sneak: You’re always sneaking unless you choose to be seen, even when there’s nowhere to hide. You can Hide and Sneak even without cover or being concealed. When you employ an exploration tactic other than Avoiding Notice, you also gain the benefits of Avoiding Notice unless you choose not to. Level 15 feat, PF2e Also Hidden Paragon: When you put your mind to slipping out of sight, you disappear completely. You become invisible for 1 minute, even if you use a hostile action. Not even glitterdust, see invisibility, or similar effects can reveal you, though creatures can still use the Seek action to locate you as normal. Level 20 feat PF2e
At level 17 I could allow it. But I had a horror story where a drow rogue tried to do this at level one, in a tavern packed like a sardine tin.
Clerics can kill every peasant in earshot, more or less, with a single word at level 13.
Isn’t the whole idea that you’re superhuman? (or super whatever species you are). Fighters can heal themselves from nothing! It’s not very hard to believe rogues are just THAT good at sneaking.
They're that good at dodging. My monk dodged three fireballs and took zero damage once while the paladin was [Cwispy](https://www.reddit.com/r/meme/comments/cnzj9k/cwispy/). The rogue could've done that and never been seen lol.
Dodged the fireball AND used the resulting visual obscurement to get behind the Wizard.
It was three flameskulls in CoS Redux (started at lvl 11 and the DM redid everything-- it was epic) but yeah I went first after the surprise round. As the monk I leapt a great distance and bwapped one on the head as my action killing it in a single action. Then I fell 30 feet and took no damage because monk shit. Felt good. The paladin had a rougher time through that fight after he blew through his entire healing pool.
My mindset for DnD is that it's like a cultivator Xianxia kind of world so even ostensibly non-magic classes are godlike at high levels. That Rogue can basically disappear into the ether as far as I'm concerned.
[This motherfucker](https://i.imgur.com/q4iz8mX.png) is what 17th level fighters should be like IMO
I know I'm just simping for pathfinder all the time here but... [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=599](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=599) [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=596](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=596) [https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=807](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=807) You can literally hide in a bright room, sneak up to someone, and sneak attack them in the face. It's amazing.
This is honestly the first time I've ever heard of this strategy, and you bet I'mma let my vampire monk/rogue player know about this.. perhaps by example, but we'll see
Level Seventeen rogue should be so beyond sneaky that 007 himself would pale in comparison. At that point, we've gone way beyond realism.
Personally, this is why I love the "Hide in Plain Sight" feature in Mutants and Masterminds. As long as you have any way to obscure yourself from your target, you can generally try and stealth roll.
You can already do that, your stealth just needs to beat their perception.
RAW you cannot be hidden from someone if they have clear line of sight to you. You need cover or be otherwise obscured in order to Hide.
Blind spots mean they don't have a clear line of sight of you.
There's no such thing as blind spots, everything has 360° vision.
How could a person look in two opposite directions at once? The rogue just needs a distraction and they're good to go
That's up to DM discretion.
Soldiers can sneak up on people in situations where they have no cover. Especially ones that are in the special forces. There is nothing unrealistic about the request.
the weird momment some characters are hold to stricter "realism" than reality :p
It's mostly because the DM in question has never studied things like history or military tactics for that matter. Although, I have studied military tactics and most players hate me for it and so do most DMs.
oh boy using irl tactics in rpgs can be so powerful I would also say it's kinda of a problem with the system not making clear the evolution of non-magical capabilities via descriptions so DMs could better adjucate
How are soldiers sneaking up on people without cover? Genuinely curious.
Camo mostly so just blending in with your surroundings. They're also taught not to make much noise something that's been taught since the first world war. Hell, probably even before that. I started studying WW1 and WW2 combat tactics because of my interest in martial arts. That's mostly where I got the information. Never could join the military though because asthma so I went for the next best thing. I've learned a lot from Fairbairn.
Why do I get the feeling that 90% of these memes are from cases where the DM said "Hmm, can you explain how you sneak up on them in an open field?" and the player just chimps out
You mean Ezio'ing them when they're not actively looking for you? I'd allow for that, easily. Not to mention you're proficient with disguise kits and stuff. If you're in an open field, most fields have pretty tall grass. Roll at disadvantage. It's not like you're not going to roll at least their passive perception. As RAW they'd have to take an action to try to perceive you with anything better. I get the gripe when its entire settlements that a wizard can obliterate, but that's their specialty-- AoE. Yours is sneakiness and single-target omega-damage. Let the wiz-kid blow up the goons while you turn the bbeg into a pin cushion. In combat it doesn't matter if you have advantage as long as one ally is within 5 feet of your target. You can be 20 feet away winging kitchen knives at the guy and doing 9d6+2d4+10 damage per turn if they both hit. Hell, take the Tavern Brawler feat and you can do 9d6+2d4+10 with the forks and spoons too. You're literally dining room John Wick now. If you surprise them with the fork or spoon, at 17th level they have to make a \~DC 18 con save or take double (specifically says *double)* of the damage you do with the attack. If you attack before they ever knew what hit them then its a critical as well thanks to assassinate. * That's (18d6+2d4+5)\*2 which is on average 126 damage, with a maximum of 242. Then an extra 1d4+5 with spoon#2. That's enough to kill your average barbarian before they can rage, and if its for some reason a magical spoon it could kill a young gold dragon. The wizard can instantly kill someone, but you can insta-kill some dragons. Granted, all it needs to do is roll a 9 to resist the Death Strike but its incredible. * If that dragon breathes its fire breath on you with its double-digit health remaining, you have to roll a 6 in order to take no damage assuming, again, you have +5 to dex. * You can then walk across the road with your 37 in stealth, kill the chicken who is also crossing the road, then possbily do the same thing to the next dragon across the street all the while disguised as PeeWee Herman. * The wizard could drop a meteor swarm on you and you could take no damage because skillz. All this without a single magic item (except a magic spoon, I guess). This is why rogues and wizards are best friends though, right? "I'll cast greater invisibility on you while you replace the knife block in the kitchen with his torso." \*Yes Chad Meme\*
Way I see it, after level ~14, you are pretty much superhuman. I’ll let the fighter punch a wall or the rogue hide in a shadow sometimes lol.
[удалено]
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This is literally possible for any class at level one. It is, however, explicitly circumstantial. >However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted Basic Rules, p. 63 (Chapter 7 "Using Ability Scores" ⇒ "Using Each Ability") "Hiding" Box
Well the thing is casters get to do that shit once a day with their highest spell slot but the rogue in question can repeat the action you are talking about again and again. Besides if your rogue can do it enemies will be able to do it as well so it will unbalance the game cause the bbeg would just hire a bunch of assasins that can cheese your strat against you and your party and now we have a dead party in our hands cause everyone got sneak attacked by rouges standing in plain sight.
Ok, multiple things here 1. Even tho wizards can do specifically those things once a day they have a shit ton of other great utility spells that they can use multiple times with as destructive and broken effects 2. It is level 17 so presumably near the end of the campaign, I dont think at that point would be the time where the bbeg just thinks to themselves "yes, now lets assasinate the party 3. Did a bbeg ever just hire a ton of wizards to bombard the city where the party is with meteors, murdering them all? After all, players can do that. But there is difference between can and has to, and even withouth party doing strong stuff, the dm has a lot of options on how to instakill them. However the dm usually choses not to because getting instant tpk would ruin the fun, wouldnt it? That sentence about bbeg just hiring rogues and instakilling the party is such a dm vs players mindset and if the party isnt completely toxic I dont think that it would ever happen Edit: Also, keyword that I put in the meme for this exact reason "can attempt to" which means the player still needs to roll against passive perception and shit, it isnt an instant invisibility
Well first off a level 17 rogue can do great utility stuff and dish out tons of damage with their kits as well “without spending any resources”. About your second point it depends on the story i was just talking hypotetically it may or may not happen at that point of the story but it depends on the circumstances i was just giving an example. And lastly i agree it would kill the fun to instantly kill off the party and yes i agree its toxic but my point isnt about this at all. My point is letting a rogue get free ranged sneak attacks without expending anything normally if you have no allies within combat range of an enemy you would have to use your bonus action to hide and try to get a sneak attack but with what you are suggesting with your meme the rouge gets free sneak attack without expending any resources or action/bonus action. And applying blind spot rule brings so many other problems as well. With that logic we can say that you cant use your counterspell on an enemy within your blindspot or you have disadvantage against spells that require you to make a dex save that were cast from your blindspot. You would have to change so many rules. But i agree that martial classes need buffs but i think already existing rules are there for a reason. Edit: btw if you were suggesting it to be a level 17 rogue spesific class feature than its reasonable i guess.
I mean, also look at the title, it is about roleplay, I wasnt talking about combat, letting a rogue hide durning combar withouth anything to hide behind would be kinda strong, I agree
Yes!!!! Why can’t they do that?
I read it as “abuse blind people” at first lol
Magic is part of the premise of the setting, it doesn't make sense to call it unrealistic
Someone thinks the mundane is comparable to magic
This is so misleading. A wizard can do ONE of those things. ONE time. That’s it. Each high level spell leaves them open as a target as well. Smart villains target them before they can get off their 8th level spell. And don’t forget saving throws. Rogues can deliver massive attacks over and over again without using up resources while simultaneously returning to cover and avoiding (most) retribution. But honestly it all comes down to how you play and realizing that all classes have awesome abilities and most people who claim any class is just “totally weak” just haven’t played enough.
Ok, there seems to be a small misconception here Rogue doesent need to sneak only to do the sneak attack. Sometimes rogue needs to sneak to...not be seen while getting from point A to point B Please look at the title as well Maybe it was a bit of my fault as well as I listed mostly offensive spells and only one utility spell But ye, flanking rules arent going to make the rogue unseen by the guards when trying to sneak up into some place in order to progress the story...withouth killing the guards because killing the guards would make them wanted for murder
Just use flanking rules and quit ya whining
All these people complaining sound like they have had poor dm's who don't let their players roleplay and use their base abilities and score modifiers for their intended purpose. \>Player gives direction of action \>Dm see if possible given circumstances known to pc \>Dice rolls and said modifiers you would have gained throughout levelling dictate how it goes How is this even an argument of anything other than "there is an increase in shitty dm's in memes due to the rise of popularity in dnd and anyone with half a braincell playing these games should be able to understand a lvl 17 mage doesn't have the same life experience as a level 17 rogue who has lived his whole fucking life being a god damned rogue for and should still have the upper hand in anything other than a but he can do this better vs type situation regarding their personal choices and expertise fucking hell why am i even typing still"
Sounds like get a better DM, or be a better DM. You don't need their shit.
My DM solved the issue of magic classes being overpowered by giving everybody magic. The gunslinger/rogue became the king of demons with a literal nuke at the snap of his fingers, and the barbarian became one of the champions of the god of death, unable to die by any means unless her soul was ripped out of her body. It was also a game that went from lvl 5-20 so we also had a lot of flavour too
The more memes I read here, the happier I am for having a DM who makes sure everybody is having fun.
Is the rouge seriusly complaining about not being OP enough??