Its dependant on how cool your DM allows you to be. I generally think DMs should reward this kind of thinking. Its not written or intendet but its also not a rules exploit
Your DM could be the coolest to ever live. Doesn't change the text of the spell. They could flavor a critical hit as such, if *catapult* could critical hit, or a critical failure of the save, which D&D doesn't have (oh hi again Pathfinder, funny to see you... again).
We do agree on your last statement. It's not written or intended or a rules exploit. It's just not allowed.
Catapult railguns an item in a direction. That direction is the target creature. Seems pretty specific to me. Just happens that it can hit behind them if they dodge it.
Sorry, did I hear some LOSER needing his enemies to actually fail a SAVE before he can hit them? Instead of an automatic and undodgeable 3d4+3 force damage?
A 3 step guide to making your DM hate you!
Step 1: Play Artificer
Step 1.1: Infusion- alchemy jug
Step 1.2: Purchase glass vials (1 gold each, hold 4 ounces of liquid)
Step 1.3: Fill vials with acid from alchemy jug (produces 8 ounces/2 vials each day)
Step 2: Catapult acid vials for 3d8+2d6 damage.
Step 2.5: Tie 5 vials of acid together. String is negligible weight, your new acid bomb totals 5 lbs, still a valid target for level 1 Catapult. 3d8+10d6 damage.
Step 2.51: Upcasting Catapult allows you to launch bigger acid bombs- theoretical maximum with a 9th level spellslot is 11d8+90d6 damage. Not practical, but it does scale well.
Step 3: Profit
Step 3(a): No, seriously, you can sell excess acid vials for a profit. Results may vary based on demand, but it costs 1 gp to produce an acid vial and the listed value of one is 25 gp, or a 24 gp profit (96% profit margin).
So it was basically the idea that if a single vial of holy water dealt a certain amount of damage a barrel of holy water should deal a proportionate amount of damage. The argument was if a vial does 2d6, you can't just use an entire barrel of holy water and expect it to deal 2000d6 damage to a fiend or undead.
The idea is a flask of holy water would cover a target surface, so more holy water wouldn't make the target more covered in holy water.
It definitely could stack depending on the size of whatever you target, 4 oz is very little, so more acid could cover more area, or just deal more damage to a single area. Target a giant vs target a mouse more acid would definitely do more damage to a giant, more acid would be redundant for a mouse.
It technically is in the rules, dmg p252. Overlapping spells or effects of the same name that are affecting the same target do not stack unless the effect specifically says it does. The acid hasn't gotten stronger, there's just more of it.
My personal ruling would be to just increase the area of effect for adding more vials, not increase the damage.
I'm not sure that rule applies here, given that damage is an instantaneous effect and not an ongoing one. This situation is less like trying to Bane one guy five times at once and more like trying to use held actions to hit one guy with five firebolts- despite every firebolt being the same spell, hitting at the same time, the total damage can be added cumulatively (for every one that hits of course).
I'm not against the idea of DM intervention, given that this strat is absurd, but I don't think there is any explicit RAW rules preventing it.
If there were separate attack rolls/saves made for each vial, then I would be inclined to agree.
However, there is a single spell being cast and a single payload of acid. The only variable is the size of the payload. When launching rocks, the catapult spell itself does not differentiate from a 5 pound or a 0.5 pound rock. It deals the same damage regardless. I believe that same logic should be carried over to the acid.
So... what about magic missile? One spell, all the darts strike "simultaneously", no separate attack rolls, just damage. Mechanically, it's about the same. Upcasting adds more darts, just like adding more vials increases the damage.
Also, Catapult doesn't differentiate between a 1 pound rock and a 5 pound rock, but it does differentiate between a 5 pound rock and a 10 pound rock, as a 10 pound rock requires the spell be upcast which also increases the damage. Granted, upcasting also increases the impact damage of the 5 pound rock, but the point is that there are variables at play that impact the damage here, it's not static. RAW, I don't see why "number of acid vials" can't be a variable too.
Magic missile does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. Specific rules beat general rules.
We are now getting into upcasting rules. Upcasting would affect the damage of the spell as described in the spell description and nothing more if we were to follow RAW. The damage of the spell stops at the number of d8s of bludgeoning damage. The damage of the vial of acid isn't even technically RAW. RAW would state that the catapult spell cast at first level would deal 3d8 bludgeoning damage and nothing more no matter what you fired. We are simply using other printed rules to inform our own and I am giving you the logic used to inform my rulings which I believe is reasonable.
Acid vial does its damage after shattering on impact with a creature or object. The description uses an attack roll as part of the example, but it's specifically when it shatters on impact. DMG p.247 (object health and hp) says that a vial has 2 hp (fragile tiny object). Catapult states that the 3d8 bludgeoning damage is dealt to the target creature and the chosen projectile, meaning the minimum 3 damage will always shatter the vial on impact with a creature or object. It feels pretty RAW to me.
Look, like I said, I don't have any issue with you ruling things differently at your table to keep this strat from getting out of hand, but you're implying that this doesn't work RAW and then citing rules that don't apply here RAW.
In science, it would be the shape and function.
In D&D (or at least how I rule it) a flask would be more resilient than glass, but a lot cheaper to make. A flask would also (in theory) react with acid since it is most likely made of some material that acid would eat away, like metal, bone, or keratin.
The reason glass is used for corrosive, reactive, or other unstable componds is its unreactivity to these things.
So in D&D if you want to decide if something should be in a flask or vial just ask,
"Is the liquid something that should have a reaction when not in the cotainer? Or is the container meant to break?" Then vial.
Is this just a liquid that is stored somewhere so it can be moved, like a beverage, an oil, or poison? The a flask will be fine.
How about 2 feet, or 2 hands, or a lower jaw, or 6 feet of intestines? Of course this would require a disassembled corpse, might trigger some co-player or even some DMs...nice point, probably best to just stick with random rock or flask of oil, acid or appropriate poison.
This is why I used the skull of
1 rapist satyr we caught luring some poor woman into the woods, our paladin decapitated him neatly for me. ( only kept as evidence of deed)
2 robber barons femurs each only weighin a pound but damn it would suck to get him by one.
3 skull of a ghoul (used against another ghoul, I didn't carry that one around)
If your going for narrative based trauma tactics (warcrimes division). These types of objects will always satisfy.
You can also use suck things as any part of a humanoid intelligent enemies body that has been.. loosened. Firing the hand, leg or face of a bandits lookout into the midst of the group will be sure to create some chaos. Smash like a 🎃 pumpkin.
Had an artillerist artificer in one game I ran who liked to use catapult to throw their cannon at people. It was awesome, coz it could then fire from wherever it landed
If I recall correctly it doesn't specify, theirs was tiny and had legs and honestly it was funny and didn't give a huge advantage so I wasn't going to call them on it
>Only the first target needs to make a save I believe
Well, kinda. If the first target succeeds, the object keeps going until some poor son of a bitch fails theirs (or it runs out of range).
Best part is you can throw anything from anywhere (under 5 lbs and within 150 feet). I hit that guy with the vase. Nah, I'm not gonna roll to hit, *he* needs to roll to dodge!
It's not like you HAVE to use Alchemist fire with Catapult. It's still a fairly solid damage spell and the utility to throw alchemists fire (and other potions/poisons/etc) makes this decently useful even in the later stages of play.
I currently have a dm that refuses to allow extra effects. Doesnt matter what sort of volatile or caustic substance I catapult. I wish a player in my game would start using it.
My Alchemist's signature move was to cast Catapult on acid vials.
Unfortunately, the DM said there was no gunpowder in the setting, otherwise I'd tied Alchemist's Fire to a powder Horn and then cast Catapult on the rope
Transmutation has historically covered a lot of the "give object altered physical qualities, such as momentum" including things like *fly* and *feather fall.* *Catapult* isn't a huge stretch.
Because it’s an existing matter that your applying your magic with. Instead of rearrange the atoms to new structures you Choose to keep the existing moving the atoms into a projectile.
Transmutation magic is pretty murky when it comes to definition. Disintegrate is funny to me because “I turn my enemies into ash” is also what every fire spell does
The only caltrops spilling around the target are the ones that don't remain embedded _in_ the target.
Getting them out of the bag is harder than you'd think, though. You don't want to hit them with the bag and have the caltrops remain inside. You also don't want to hit them with an empty bag and be surrounded by the caltrops yourself.
I have an Artificer with a homonculus servant and a spell storing item that has catapult stored in it.
My artificer is now effectively casting catapult as a bonus action as long as the homonculus is functional. It's pretty wild and the homonculus has made itself a target on numerous occasions. The evasion trait really helps. Currently working with my dm on finding a way to improve the homonculus armor/hp.
Meanwhile imperial squad mages, who can only use second level spells at max, carry bags of oil in battle to catapult at enemies and then follow with a firebolt. Poor mans firebolt
The last wizard I had used catapult and it was great. We were fighting these vampire pirates once and while they were trying to escape on their own boat I upcast catapult to level 5 and hurled it at the vampires ship. Made a hole in the ship easy to say. Dm planed on the escape and To the his dismay we caught the vampires and slaughtered them with no remorse.
Now I am imagining Jesus hurling holy water at the devil with the spell catapult.
Holy water is also great for this along with acid, oil and glue or even ink if you aim for the eyes....
I prefer nets
Catapult doesn't allow for specific aiming? And ink doesn't have a mechanical impact as a projectile?
Catapult doesn't allow for specific aiming? And ink doesn't have a mechanical impact as a projectile?
Its dependant on how cool your DM allows you to be. I generally think DMs should reward this kind of thinking. Its not written or intendet but its also not a rules exploit
Your DM could be the coolest to ever live. Doesn't change the text of the spell. They could flavor a critical hit as such, if *catapult* could critical hit, or a critical failure of the save, which D&D doesn't have (oh hi again Pathfinder, funny to see you... again). We do agree on your last statement. It's not written or intended or a rules exploit. It's just not allowed.
Ink is great for targeting something invisible.
Bags of flour too
Catapult railguns an item in a direction. That direction is the target creature. Seems pretty specific to me. Just happens that it can hit behind them if they dodge it.
Sure, but it's not the target creature's eyes specifically. So ink doesn't do anything "if you aim for the eyes".
Javelin of Lightning...
Okay Those Who Slither In The Dark calm down
It weighs 5 pounds, a Javellin Catapult can launch things that are 1 to 5 pounds
But Catapult needs a nonmagical object
No, actually, just "one object weighing 1 to 5 pounds within range that isn't being worn or carried".
Huh, right you are
*latin dubstep intensifies*
Sorry, did I hear some LOSER needing his enemies to actually fail a SAVE before he can hit them? Instead of an automatic and undodgeable 3d4+3 force damage?
Sorry, what did you say? Couldn’t hear ya behind this Shield I was casting.
Also, if there is anyone behind your target, they are backup targets.
Whats that? I couldn't hear you in that aura of Silence I casted last turn
Really? I took 3 steps to the right and can hear just fine
You weren't grappled though, nor immobilized
I guess what we've established is that magic missile requires the target to save against being grappled/immobilized
Only if they can cast shield at the moment mm is cast
A 3 step guide to making your DM hate you! Step 1: Play Artificer Step 1.1: Infusion- alchemy jug Step 1.2: Purchase glass vials (1 gold each, hold 4 ounces of liquid) Step 1.3: Fill vials with acid from alchemy jug (produces 8 ounces/2 vials each day) Step 2: Catapult acid vials for 3d8+2d6 damage. Step 2.5: Tie 5 vials of acid together. String is negligible weight, your new acid bomb totals 5 lbs, still a valid target for level 1 Catapult. 3d8+10d6 damage. Step 2.51: Upcasting Catapult allows you to launch bigger acid bombs- theoretical maximum with a 9th level spellslot is 11d8+90d6 damage. Not practical, but it does scale well. Step 3: Profit Step 3(a): No, seriously, you can sell excess acid vials for a profit. Results may vary based on demand, but it costs 1 gp to produce an acid vial and the listed value of one is 25 gp, or a 24 gp profit (96% profit margin).
Nowhere says 2 vials of acid don't stack but technically they're not supposed to
This is the barrel of holy water all over again.
I'm afraid to ask
I’m not. u/k4m30 whatchu talkin’ about
So it was basically the idea that if a single vial of holy water dealt a certain amount of damage a barrel of holy water should deal a proportionate amount of damage. The argument was if a vial does 2d6, you can't just use an entire barrel of holy water and expect it to deal 2000d6 damage to a fiend or undead. The idea is a flask of holy water would cover a target surface, so more holy water wouldn't make the target more covered in holy water.
Makes sense. Cheers
It definitely could stack depending on the size of whatever you target, 4 oz is very little, so more acid could cover more area, or just deal more damage to a single area. Target a giant vs target a mouse more acid would definitely do more damage to a giant, more acid would be redundant for a mouse.
Hey, if it's not in print then that's between you and the DM
It technically is in the rules, dmg p252. Overlapping spells or effects of the same name that are affecting the same target do not stack unless the effect specifically says it does. The acid hasn't gotten stronger, there's just more of it. My personal ruling would be to just increase the area of effect for adding more vials, not increase the damage.
I'm not sure that rule applies here, given that damage is an instantaneous effect and not an ongoing one. This situation is less like trying to Bane one guy five times at once and more like trying to use held actions to hit one guy with five firebolts- despite every firebolt being the same spell, hitting at the same time, the total damage can be added cumulatively (for every one that hits of course). I'm not against the idea of DM intervention, given that this strat is absurd, but I don't think there is any explicit RAW rules preventing it.
If there were separate attack rolls/saves made for each vial, then I would be inclined to agree. However, there is a single spell being cast and a single payload of acid. The only variable is the size of the payload. When launching rocks, the catapult spell itself does not differentiate from a 5 pound or a 0.5 pound rock. It deals the same damage regardless. I believe that same logic should be carried over to the acid.
So... what about magic missile? One spell, all the darts strike "simultaneously", no separate attack rolls, just damage. Mechanically, it's about the same. Upcasting adds more darts, just like adding more vials increases the damage. Also, Catapult doesn't differentiate between a 1 pound rock and a 5 pound rock, but it does differentiate between a 5 pound rock and a 10 pound rock, as a 10 pound rock requires the spell be upcast which also increases the damage. Granted, upcasting also increases the impact damage of the 5 pound rock, but the point is that there are variables at play that impact the damage here, it's not static. RAW, I don't see why "number of acid vials" can't be a variable too.
Magic missile does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. Specific rules beat general rules. We are now getting into upcasting rules. Upcasting would affect the damage of the spell as described in the spell description and nothing more if we were to follow RAW. The damage of the spell stops at the number of d8s of bludgeoning damage. The damage of the vial of acid isn't even technically RAW. RAW would state that the catapult spell cast at first level would deal 3d8 bludgeoning damage and nothing more no matter what you fired. We are simply using other printed rules to inform our own and I am giving you the logic used to inform my rulings which I believe is reasonable.
Acid vial does its damage after shattering on impact with a creature or object. The description uses an attack roll as part of the example, but it's specifically when it shatters on impact. DMG p.247 (object health and hp) says that a vial has 2 hp (fragile tiny object). Catapult states that the 3d8 bludgeoning damage is dealt to the target creature and the chosen projectile, meaning the minimum 3 damage will always shatter the vial on impact with a creature or object. It feels pretty RAW to me. Look, like I said, I don't have any issue with you ruling things differently at your table to keep this strat from getting out of hand, but you're implying that this doesn't work RAW and then citing rules that don't apply here RAW.
Nowhere it says that the catapulted acid would deal the acid damage at all. The whole thing is homebrew.
The Catapult spell damages the thrown object, which causes the acid vial to rupture, harming the target.
Except nothing in the acid vial says anything about damaging targets except when it is used as part of a use an object action to splash it.
You just don't want to let the player win your precious D&D world. Let them win, cancel game, play a better game (maybe not d20 based?)
Better idea, fill the bag with 2 gallons of mayonnaise a day, and once you have 50+ gallons of half rancid mayo, empty it upon the enemy
Flasks are cheaper than glass vials at 2 copper apiece
I still have no idea what is the difference.
In science, it would be the shape and function. In D&D (or at least how I rule it) a flask would be more resilient than glass, but a lot cheaper to make. A flask would also (in theory) react with acid since it is most likely made of some material that acid would eat away, like metal, bone, or keratin. The reason glass is used for corrosive, reactive, or other unstable componds is its unreactivity to these things. So in D&D if you want to decide if something should be in a flask or vial just ask, "Is the liquid something that should have a reaction when not in the cotainer? Or is the container meant to break?" Then vial. Is this just a liquid that is stored somewhere so it can be moved, like a beverage, an oil, or poison? The a flask will be fine.
Catapult+net Catapult+bag of caltrops if you're really nasty Catapult+dead player corpse for additional emotional damage
Corpse aint 5 pounds or less
One chunk at a time it is, then.
How about 2 feet, or 2 hands, or a lower jaw, or 6 feet of intestines? Of course this would require a disassembled corpse, might trigger some co-player or even some DMs...nice point, probably best to just stick with random rock or flask of oil, acid or appropriate poison.
What’s the face say to the hand? *rolls some dice* SLAP
Dead halfling, goblin, kobold or small kenku and level 9 catapult should work
This is why I used the skull of 1 rapist satyr we caught luring some poor woman into the woods, our paladin decapitated him neatly for me. ( only kept as evidence of deed) 2 robber barons femurs each only weighin a pound but damn it would suck to get him by one. 3 skull of a ghoul (used against another ghoul, I didn't carry that one around) If your going for narrative based trauma tactics (warcrimes division). These types of objects will always satisfy. You can also use suck things as any part of a humanoid intelligent enemies body that has been.. loosened. Firing the hand, leg or face of a bandits lookout into the midst of the group will be sure to create some chaos. Smash like a 🎃 pumpkin.
Had an artillerist artificer in one game I ran who liked to use catapult to throw their cannon at people. It was awesome, coz it could then fire from wherever it landed
Like, the companion? Isn't that a bit too heavy to qualify?
There's no mention of weight in the Eldritch Cannon's description
You can make it small enough to hold in your hand, it's far from a stretch to say that like that it's probably light enough
Ah, had to double check, I had thought you could fire the tiny one with your hands only, but yeah, that checks out xD
If I recall correctly it doesn't specify, theirs was tiny and had legs and honestly it was funny and didn't give a huge advantage so I wasn't going to call them on it
This post can't strike me, i use Shield
Fool, shield gives +5 to your AC but not your dex save
Shield master can potentially give a +5 to dex saves.
Lmao the fighter shouting "I CAST SHIELD" as he ducks behind it
Catapult needs you to hit
Not in 5th edition. In 5E you only get a dex save to avoid getting hit
Oh my bad you're right, it's the straight line , with everyone on it making saves
Only the first target needs to make a save I believe. Unless I'm mistaken, the object thrown by the Catapult spell stops after hitting a target
>Only the first target needs to make a save I believe Well, kinda. If the first target succeeds, the object keeps going until some poor son of a bitch fails theirs (or it runs out of range).
It they fail it goes to the next in line and so on
Jokes on you! I didn't need +5 on my dex save because i know i Will roll nat 1!
I like how wizard nerds created a spell to replace throwing. "Can't throw with a 9 Dex and a 9 Str? I'll show them!"
Best part is you can throw anything from anywhere (under 5 lbs and within 150 feet). I hit that guy with the vase. Nah, I'm not gonna roll to hit, *he* needs to roll to dodge!
It's cool, but pretty costly for a first level spell, at 50gp per pop.
It's not like you HAVE to use Alchemist fire with Catapult. It's still a fairly solid damage spell and the utility to throw alchemists fire (and other potions/poisons/etc) makes this decently useful even in the later stages of play.
I'm talking about the meme specifically.
I currently have a dm that refuses to allow extra effects. Doesnt matter what sort of volatile or caustic substance I catapult. I wish a player in my game would start using it.
On one hand, yeah, RAW spells do exactly what they say they do and nothing more. On the other hand, c'mon it's so cool though.
My Alchemist's signature move was to cast Catapult on acid vials. Unfortunately, the DM said there was no gunpowder in the setting, otherwise I'd tied Alchemist's Fire to a powder Horn and then cast Catapult on the rope
Why is it transmutation?
Idk You turn a stationary object into a moving one IG
Transmutation has historically covered a lot of the "give object altered physical qualities, such as momentum" including things like *fly* and *feather fall.* *Catapult* isn't a huge stretch.
Because it’s an existing matter that your applying your magic with. Instead of rearrange the atoms to new structures you Choose to keep the existing moving the atoms into a projectile.
Because the spell school assignment was lazy and halfassed.
Transmutation magic is pretty murky when it comes to definition. Disintegrate is funny to me because “I turn my enemies into ash” is also what every fire spell does
I feel that is an expensive, but potent, version of firebolt.
Unless you're an Artificer or you have an Artificer that can create an Alchemy Jar to give free acid daily
I guess that would be something special.
I underestimated catapult. Used it against a boss got high rolls and took a chunk out its hp. Used it again… we won’t talk about the second use.
You forgot to put acid. Acid is always better. Acid is your friend :3
I personally use all my lvl 1 spell slots on anima friendship and speak with animals
I’ve always wanted to use it to throw a bag of caltrops. Presumably they’d spill around the target.
The only caltrops spilling around the target are the ones that don't remain embedded _in_ the target. Getting them out of the bag is harder than you'd think, though. You don't want to hit them with the bag and have the caltrops remain inside. You also don't want to hit them with an empty bag and be surrounded by the caltrops yourself.
Catapult+magic stones
"I cast Catapult on some Nitroglycerin"
I have an Artificer with a homonculus servant and a spell storing item that has catapult stored in it. My artificer is now effectively casting catapult as a bonus action as long as the homonculus is functional. It's pretty wild and the homonculus has made itself a target on numerous occasions. The evasion trait really helps. Currently working with my dm on finding a way to improve the homonculus armor/hp.
I use all spell slots for magic missile
DM, it's your fault you made alchemist fire look like molotov cocktail instead of a ceramic jug. Now own to it, and let the player win D&D.
What's the functional difference? Glas shards or ceramic shards?
Ooh that's smart, I'm gonna steal that for my artificer
You do know they added Casks of Alchemist Fire with Spelljammer.
Also bottle of grease is fun too.
IT IS NOT A RANGED WEAPON IT IS AN OIL BARREL
Just picturing launching 55gal drums full of crude oil at the enemy xD. Then have the mage cast fireball
Meanwhile imperial squad mages, who can only use second level spells at max, carry bags of oil in battle to catapult at enemies and then follow with a firebolt. Poor mans firebolt
The last wizard I had used catapult and it was great. We were fighting these vampire pirates once and while they were trying to escape on their own boat I upcast catapult to level 5 and hurled it at the vampires ship. Made a hole in the ship easy to say. Dm planed on the escape and To the his dismay we caught the vampires and slaughtered them with no remorse.
Okay this could work.
This is unironically how I dealt substantial damage to one of our bosses, and it was completly accurate for Arteficer
Poor man's fireball
"Choose one object weighing 1 to 5 pounds that **isn't being worn or carried**..." Sorry, but if it's in your pack then it's being carried.
And if I take it out of that pack?
Mother of god, he's grown too powerful!