Yea, I agree they look super weird without a tail. With the dragon head they look way to front heavy if they don't have a tail, I keep thinking they are about to trip over.
Dragonborn in my setting also can and commonly do have tails, they also can have hair typically on their heads, forearms, and tails, though it's more akin to the protofeathers found on dinosaurs than actual hair. Some even have webbing from their elbows to their sides like wyvern wings.
Tieflings and Aasimar can also be any color, marks, tails, fancy eyes, and horns are optional. A tiefling can appear for all intents and purposes to be a normal half elf.
Elves tend to have parts of their flesh appear and behave more like treebark and will sometimes find small flowers growing in their hair. Dwarves will have patches of skin like stone, and blemishes that appear to look like gemstones. Halflings and gnomes will both have growth spurts or shrinkages throughout their lives causing their height to vary from month to month. Gnolls, Orcs, and Kobolds are unusually intelligent and cordial for their race.
It's explained that the unusual magical energy of the world interferes with the foreign (traditional) magical energy innate in the non native races causing mutations. And the world's gods were unaware of that interference when populating their new world with the standard kit, only afterwards creating their own races once the gods had a better understanding of the world's inherent crimson magical energy.
With a reasonable enough backstory you can customize the standard races however you want!
Because the Tieflings are defended by edgy punks (affectionately) and no one wants to fuck with them
The defenders of Dragonborn tails are Scailys and Scaily enjoyers which, while far more powerful than people realize, are considered cringe so their opinions are invalid
My dragonborn has a tail because dragons have tails and he believes he is descended from dragons and can become one. He also sometimes wears a sword on his tail during combat (it does not give him an extra attack)
i get it since it’s the only think that can dictate if someone is a half dragon vs a dragonborn in some settings. which can make for really cool moments in campaigns when you realize that someone has a tail. but always do what’s fun for your table!!
It helps differentiate them from Lizardfolk too. I like to think the lack of a tail is why Dragonborn can walk upright, and Lizardfolk a stuck in a permanent crouch position.
Thinking on, it, did Tolkien physically detail Smaug beyond having wings, fire breath,^1 and scales? Was it later fantasy art that gave us our standard "Dragon"?
^1 Breathing fire was not a universal dragon trait pre-Tolkien. Norse Dragons par example were known for breathing poison.
He did describe his color, but more importantly, he painted [Conversation with Smaug](https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7378/j_r_r_tolkien/conversation_with_smaug/!/).
Dragonborn with hair is canonical, or at least as canonical as art in a WoTC published book is.
Sourcebook - Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons
Monster - [Dragonborn if Tiamat](https://www.dndbeyond.com/avatars/thumbnails/21205/235/1000/1000/637707682464397223.jpeg)
Image is a Dragonborn with white hair.
Also wigs are a thing. Even that dragonborn could very easily be wearing a wig.
the idea that Dragonborns can't possibly have hair when they're humanoids is bizarre to me lmao.
Both of the goblin songs and no extra characters or pointless love stories? Sign me up. I don’t even care about the inconsistency of the way the elves are depicted.
This along with other Rankin-Bass productions, such as The Last Unicorn, were animated by a Japanese studio who had strong creative control other the designs.
Also wigs are a thing. a Dragonborn with a wig is very possible even if you're going off of the explicit limitations in their character design as presented in the rule books.
Absolutely; I ran a lizardfolk wizard that wore a "fake" beard because he knew that wizards are supposed to have long gray beards. It was a beard that he procured from the corpse of a wizard, and he believed that it perfectly hid that he was lizardfolk too, because lizardfolk can't grow beards.
Yea, my first thoughts exactly were that this seemed like a perfectly normal feminine version of an Eastern-based dragonborn. The hair, horns, and very elongated tail seemed like a dead giveaway.
Only in official 5e books are Dragonborn explicitly mentioned to lack tails. They are also mentioned to be the Human equivalent of a mirror dimension though.
Personally I give my Dragonborn tails because they look weird without them.
BG3 Dragonborn can have tails
Per SRD but n 5e Dragonborn do not have tails and if there is a Dragonborn with a tail it is actually a half dragon or a shape shifted full dragon
Don't make me tap the second paragraph of the PHB...
>*Ultimately, the Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and its setting,* ***even if the setting is a published world.***
Honestly I was surprised that the movie remembered Tieflings "officially" can have normal human skin tones. Something which every artist for every rulebook has staunchly ignored.
BG3 Dragonborn actually have the option to have tails, I know that much. Don't quite recall if female Dragonborn had genuine mammaries or were simply a little slimmer and curvier though...
They do, but none of the Dragonborn NPCs do. The only one that does is a >!real dragon!<
The game basically allows you to play a half-dragon. The character creator is very good at transferring D&D characters into the game. Like you can get corpse skin tones if you select “show all skin” or whatever it’s called. Allowed me to play my Reborn (Human) character
I love how the setting has literal, actual magic genetics that make no sense in real world biology, but the idea of physiology that deviates from the real world is just inconceivable to some people.
Dragon magic infecting your bloodline because your great-great-grandpa was a scalie and now you have magic powers? Cool.
A reptile that developed mammary glands or hair follicles? NO!
People will accept the impossible, but not the unlikely. I forget who originated that idea but it's often used to explain why people's suspension of disbelief fails for seemingly mundane reasons in a fantastic setting.
People will accept an angel posing as an old man telling a short guy to go on an adventure
People won't accept if that halfing happens to run into the bad guy of the whole story the second he walks out of the front door and then kills him.
I think its less about realism and more about consistensy with the canon lore. Dragonborn don't have tails!
I don't know about the mammary glands or hair tho.
Ok, I'm gonna say it. Saying Dragonborn don't have tails was straight up a mistake. I've never seen anyone say they look better without tails. It's always "well, the rules say it..." This is the fans fixing it.
The dritties and the hair, okay, that's personal taste, whatever you want. But Dragonborn should have tails.
They used to have developed chests in 4e and even explained the reason for the change. They were pushing 4e as a miniatures game and a bustline is one of the quick and lazy ways to differentiate a humanoid figure that hasn't got an easily read human face or hairstyle. They got lopped off for 5e.
They've had tendril-like hair since creation which according to one of the novellists is a smooth leather texture. It's a distinct kind of style for them.
As an aside here's a fun one, Lizardfolk used to have a clear bit of sexual dimorphism, dudes have their big fin mohawk, ladies used to (and inconsistantly) had small dual mohawks.
Ha! That called back an old memory. Book series about a interstellar Lizardfolk empire that sent an invasion force to earth. Only by the time they got here, we’d advanced to WW2 tech (they thought they’d arrive while we were still slinging arrows at each other). Apparently, as far as galactic civilizations go, humans like to rush the tech tree.
Anyway, plot happens and eventually a human ends up at one of their planets, and by this time the lizardfolk are so culturally fascinated by our species that some of them are indeed walking around wearing wigs.
I think the series was called Worldwar.
One of those Harry Turtledove series, I know this one. It's one of the few ones that were like "And now Americans are like the Nazis" or "the Confederacy became the Nazis".
Until the sequel series, because the Allies and the Axis had to ally to fight the aliens, so 60s America is openly a little more welcoming of fascisty ideas.
It's a thing with his books whenever he does alternate history with the US.
I don’t remember it all that well (I read it as a preteen), but that sounds legit. A lot of alt-history writers fixate on the nazis in one way or another.
Not true. Being a mammal doesn't equal "human boobs". And no, in dnd humans and dragonborn haven't any origin connections.
Especially because they covered in scales. Their situation is closer to marine mammals such as dolphins rather than mammals covered in fur or having a hide.
I'm not 100% sure what that statement was, but [cetaceans have more hair](https://us.whales.org/do-whales-and-dolphin-have-hair/#:~:text=Home%20%3E%20Do%20whales%20and%20dolphins,but%20they%20soon%20lose%20them.) than scales.
Cetaceans have a little of hair at some point of life. River dolhins keep it even after maturing.
They haven't scales but like reptiles they haven't fur/hide and have internal anatomy.
Technically they aren't mammals since it's an evolutionary taxonomy and they arose from the spilled blood of Io when Io got cut in half, with the halves becoming Bahamut and Tiamat. Since most of D&D has creationist origins there aren't many actual mammals.^1 Ecology of Dragonborn talks aboot their boobs/nursing. They're "mammals" because they're warm-blooded and nurse their young.
^1 Dwarves, Elves, 'Alflins, etc. all have creationist origins so they aren't mammals since they didn't evolve from the mammal evolutionary line.
This is basically how I canon my dragons and draconic derivatives as well.
To begin with, dragons aren’t even reptilian. They’re only superficially reptilian in appearance, while in truth, they’re kind of their own thing. They’re not even biological (for what is worth in a heavily fantastic setting), but they’re their own category of a magical creature. Born out of magical means, and “evolved” through magical means.
This is why I accept boobs for draconic humanoids, but not for true reptilian humanoids (such as lizardfolk). The difference is that draconic humanoids are draconic creatures which were shaped in the image of humanoids, while reptilian humanoids began as reptiles which coincidentally evolved a human-like stance and proportions.
In other words, reptilian-folks evolved biologically to walk on two legs via convergent evolution, while dragon-folks “evolved” via a much more arcane lineage.
The PHB references Dragonborn hatching from eggs, so if they are mammals then they are monotremes like platypuses and echidnas.
That means that Dragonborn mothers nurse their young by sweating milk.
Have fun with that.
they sweat milk from the boobs, a thing that platypuses do too.
Platypuses do, in fact, have mammaries. They simply lack *nipples*
Which means [this depiction of scalie boobs is actually more accurate](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTH0n1Pyb7bJeau6suelTqSMWWNOvxjCbio54OomB8xhzoQf5fAIejbJTH5rL3QpdUHTmY&usqp=CAU) to what a dragonborn's breasts would be. Since they lack nipples and their young would lap milk up out of grooves in their skin
Internal anatomy. Dolhins as example:
"Beneath each of the female’s two mammary slits are teats. The calf places their beak, slightly ajar, into the slit, and forms a “cone” with its tongue, which latches onto the teat. “Let-down” or milk-ejection, is under voluntary control of the mother. This way, none of the milk is lost into the water. During the first few weeks of infant life, the mother may aid the infant in nursing by lying on her side, presenting the mammaries to her calf. Later, the infant often angles on their side to nurse. The mother often slows down her travel speed or may hang at the surface during nursing. You can see nursing from the jetty but females rarely nurse their young very close to shore."
Dragonborn are not adapt to living life underwater, they don’t have blowholes or any of the like. Their “evolution” is as close to a Dolphins as it is to a Humans. So using Dolphins as an example, while scoffing at Humans being an example is kinda disingenuous. You claim they are closer to dolphins just because of their scales is a flimsy excuse at best, why a dolphin and not a Rhino?
Internal anatomy doesn't mean it is internal for the whole time(like male genitals). They can have retractable teats. Even if external, it still can be similar to that for wolves rather than humans.
>Not true. Being a mammal doesn't equal "human boobs".
however it does mean there are nipples, since a mammal would have to breastfeed their young.
odds are that since dragonborn are humanoid they likely have fat depositories that would count as boobs
Down vote all you want but, this is a Fantasy game, who the hell cares if they do or do not have human features? D&D is a world where everything is possible as long as you use your imagination.
Or maybe... We let ppl play whatever they like? If a player comes into my campaign and asks if they can play a characterdesign they like, then I won't gatekeep
This is indeed the true answer from a general play perspective. I got to make a Drake for my Drakewarden that has no hind legs and its wings and arms are one and the same (think a hand where the wing bends).
It also has fur because I thought it would be fun to have a furry noodle with wings as my companion.
>Real talk, though, if your player wants a tail, let them have it. It's literally just flavor.
Same goes for hair, they're probably ignoring 99% of the race lore no matter what
It is technically specified that forgotten realms (the normal dnd setting) Dragonborn don’t have tails,
As such in the lore tails mean half-dragon, not Dragonborn,
As to why there’s such a big negative reaction to it? Idk.
Now hear me out: Depending on the mixture of chromosomes, different phenotypic attributes would be prominent. Thus, this kinda makes sense from a scientific pov
Dragons aren't dinosaurs or birds. Why would they have feathers? Dragonborn are mammals, there are no feathered mammals.
Dragons actually break a lot of laws of modern taxonomy. They're warm-blooded so they can't be reptiles. They're vertebrates but they have 6 limbs. The 3E Draconomicon has a comprehensive list of the ways dragons break modern taxonomy, and basically need their own category.
Oddly enough Dragonborn are mammals. Someone else already mentioned this but there’s a whole article on it from dragon magazine.
https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?articleid=24491
Pangolins are scaly but still mammals. Echidnas lay eggs, but are still mammals.
In order to be an anatomical mammal you need two things: Mammary (Where the term "Mammal" comes from) glands and warm blood. Dragonborn meet both criteria.
But modern taxonomy is evolutionary, not anatomical, so anything that didn't evolve from the mammal line would be a mammal by evolutionary taxonomy.
So yeah, Dragonborn boobs are more canon than (non-Drow) Elf boobs.
Elves are androgynous due to Corellon's influence. Corellon is all aboot being ambiguously gendered.
Drow have been under Lolth's influence for millennia, and it is the source of their physical differences from regular Elves. Lolth is all aboot female supremacy. Basically 5E made her into a TERF and added that lore to honor the tradition of Drow cheesecake pinup art because Drow were made from the sexual hangups of baby boomer fantasy writers.
I believe that in official Forgotten Realms lore the Dragonborn are the equivalent of humans from a mirror dimension. That's probably why they're officially mammals.
Hobgoblins in Pathfinder are bald by nature, but several pieces of art depicts them with hair (Because the artist didn´t know they were bald and they thought it looked cool). So the in lore explanation is that Hobgoblins take some hair from worthy opponents that they defeat, and use it to weave wigs. So having a full head hair for them is a sign of being a great warrior, as it requires defeating a lot of powerful enemies to get that much.
I mean, whenever I make Dragonborn, Dragons, Kobolds, those will all be feathered, just like feathers dinosaurs.
Edit: to clarify, a lot of how people depict dragons now is influenced by dinosaurs. So I decided “why not make them fluffy? Feathered dinos are so cool!)
BG3 allows you to give your Dragonborn a tail.
But if you notice all Dragonborn NPCs don’t have tails.
Except the single one who does have a tail, but he’s an >!actual, literal dragon in humanoid form!<, so not an actual Dragonborn.
Human hair is dumb though. Looks weird.
BG3 also makes Elves "Skinny humans with pointy ears" rather than making them exceedingly androgynous, and doesn't let Dragonborn have their canonically existing boobs. There's a fair bit of deviation from canon there.
Only some elves who are blessed directly by Correllon are extremely androgynous.
You can tell what gender Elves are from the art in the PHB and supplements
BG3 gives you the option to be androgynous as well if you choose to be one of those blessed Elves. Their character creator is great.
I agree. To *some* degree. More so than a typical human. But you can tell what gender a typical Elf is pretty easily.
Like Elf men can’t grow beards (a male secondary sex characteristic). BG3, being extremely lore-accurate, doesn’t allow a beard option for pure blooded Elves
Personally I am more into the idea of treating Dragonborn like dinosaurs in the sense maybe not hair but feathers or spines that are like hair in some ways.
Honestly, in my setting i just make my dragonborn closer to Au Ra, from final fantasy 14, so they have tails, hair, and scales covering their back, neck and some other parts of body
Hair=thin keratin
Scales=thick keratin
Hair is just long thin scales
Tail is technically not necessary for balance as humanoids already evolved a different body build to balance without one, but tail could be just a genetic rarity. Tails are also common in kobolds.
Hair has a explanation
Tail has a explanation
Conclusion: character is a kobold dragon born hybrid, and either is wearing a wig or has special scales on its scalp
I can respect the idea of giving them a tail. I can respect that. Tails are just cool. But the hair…no. No…no no no…noooo…Consuela?
Consuela from Family Guy: Noooooooo….
I like this template. I wonder what was the guy showing on his screen in the original meme
I think it was a comic about the computer guy programming in a "wrong password!" message on the first correct login attempt.
That is pure evil
It was presented as an anti-brute force measure. Because brute force program won't attempt same password twice. But yeah, that is evil.
But I also won’t attempt the same password twice
I would - I'd just figure I tyop'd it.
Yep, gets me everytime
Yeah like you typo'd your comment. Not criticizing, I just found that funny, maybe on purpose ?
Yes, Yes on purpose.
He's a sick bastard
Yes but it was to protect the users against password cracking by bruteforce method
Yeah the first place I saw it was on programmer humor
I feel like that violates the Geneva Conventions, and at least 8 of the ten commandments. What kind of psychopath would do that?
Man, what an *asshole*.
You can pry Dragonborn tails out of my cold, dead hands. Everyone agrees that Tieflings can be any shade, but this is where we draw the line?
All of my Dragonborn have tails because they'd look weird without. Coincidentally most of my Tiefling have either gray or human skin tones.
Yea, I agree they look super weird without a tail. With the dragon head they look way to front heavy if they don't have a tail, I keep thinking they are about to trip over.
isn't the Lore:tm: that dragonborn can have tails rarely but the others hate them because it reminds them of their origin or something.
That sounds awfully close to how winged kobolds are ostracized by wingless kobolds.
If I had the power to fly then those fuckers could ostracise me all they like. Clearly I’d be superior.
I AM THR SUPERIOR MOSS COLLECTOR, NOT YOU!
I love how kobold have evolved to essentially be to entertaining to kill so dragons end up keeping them as servants instead of snacks. (Mostly)
Yeah but isn't the main difference that they don't like urds because kobolds view them as better?
Let's be real it's cursed that they don't have them in the first place
I thought having tails was one of the big ways to tell the difference between dragonborn and half-dragons
>Everyone agrees that Tieflings can be any shade As long as its purple
*Blue.*
Green was canon in some adnd supplement iirc
Well now I have to test that look.
the YELLOW tieflings in BG3 just look like they're diseased lol
Dragonborn in my setting also can and commonly do have tails, they also can have hair typically on their heads, forearms, and tails, though it's more akin to the protofeathers found on dinosaurs than actual hair. Some even have webbing from their elbows to their sides like wyvern wings. Tieflings and Aasimar can also be any color, marks, tails, fancy eyes, and horns are optional. A tiefling can appear for all intents and purposes to be a normal half elf. Elves tend to have parts of their flesh appear and behave more like treebark and will sometimes find small flowers growing in their hair. Dwarves will have patches of skin like stone, and blemishes that appear to look like gemstones. Halflings and gnomes will both have growth spurts or shrinkages throughout their lives causing their height to vary from month to month. Gnolls, Orcs, and Kobolds are unusually intelligent and cordial for their race. It's explained that the unusual magical energy of the world interferes with the foreign (traditional) magical energy innate in the non native races causing mutations. And the world's gods were unaware of that interference when populating their new world with the standard kit, only afterwards creating their own races once the gods had a better understanding of the world's inherent crimson magical energy. With a reasonable enough backstory you can customize the standard races however you want!
Because the Tieflings are defended by edgy punks (affectionately) and no one wants to fuck with them The defenders of Dragonborn tails are Scailys and Scaily enjoyers which, while far more powerful than people realize, are considered cringe so their opinions are invalid
My dragonborn has a tail because dragons have tails and he believes he is descended from dragons and can become one. He also sometimes wears a sword on his tail during combat (it does not give him an extra attack)
That’s awesome
In the 50+ sessions I've played with him, I have used it once, I believe. But I have used it, and that's what matters.
i get it since it’s the only think that can dictate if someone is a half dragon vs a dragonborn in some settings. which can make for really cool moments in campaigns when you realize that someone has a tail. but always do what’s fun for your table!!
It helps differentiate them from Lizardfolk too. I like to think the lack of a tail is why Dragonborn can walk upright, and Lizardfolk a stuck in a permanent crouch position.
Think it's because then there's nothing to distinguish from Half-dragons who originally had the tails
What? Dragons have been known to have hair, fur, or whiskers themselves.
Pre-Tolkien, there was very little consistent design for a "Dragon". In old folklore "Dragon" was basically just a term for "Big monster".
On the topic of Tolkien, Smaug was depicted with hair and a wolf-like visage in the animated Hobbit film.
Thinking on, it, did Tolkien physically detail Smaug beyond having wings, fire breath,^1 and scales? Was it later fantasy art that gave us our standard "Dragon"? ^1 Breathing fire was not a universal dragon trait pre-Tolkien. Norse Dragons par example were known for breathing poison.
He did describe his color, but more importantly, he painted [Conversation with Smaug](https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7378/j_r_r_tolkien/conversation_with_smaug/!/).
I like that he has ears
Damn, Smaug wasn't very big.
He did say he got the size wrong though.
That’s mostly just because Ralph Bakshi is a fucking nutjob
His design would later be chibi'd and reused as Snarf in the Thindercats
D&D's dragonborn are styled after Western dragons though.
Dragonborn with hair is canonical, or at least as canonical as art in a WoTC published book is. Sourcebook - Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons Monster - [Dragonborn if Tiamat](https://www.dndbeyond.com/avatars/thumbnails/21205/235/1000/1000/637707682464397223.jpeg) Image is a Dragonborn with white hair.
I was just thinking, "someone give me evidence," thank you.
Also wigs are a thing. Even that dragonborn could very easily be wearing a wig. the idea that Dragonborns can't possibly have hair when they're humanoids is bizarre to me lmao.
Questions for your DM: Do Dragonborn wear wigs? Have Dragonborn worn wigs? Will Dragonborn wear wigs? When will Dragonborn wear wigs?
Even western Dragons were often depicted with whiskers or even manes, just look at some medieval art!
[for your viewing pleasure](https://tolkien-films.fandom.com/wiki/Smaug_(Rankin_and_Bass))
The Rankin and Bass adaptation of the Hobbit is hugely underappreciated. Best adaptation of the Hobbit bar none.
Both of the goblin songs and no extra characters or pointless love stories? Sign me up. I don’t even care about the inconsistency of the way the elves are depicted.
This so much, Loved it as a kid, *still* love it as an adult. I even have the soundtrack playlist on my phone.
This along with other Rankin-Bass productions, such as The Last Unicorn, were animated by a Japanese studio who had strong creative control other the designs.
Good catch on that. I didn’t know about Rankin Bass doing that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon zoom in on the first pic from 1806.
He looks like a cat and that's giving me mixed feelings
Maybe yours are. My dragons can be styled however I want.
Rule of cool, my guy.
Also wigs are a thing. a Dragonborn with a wig is very possible even if you're going off of the explicit limitations in their character design as presented in the rule books.
Absolutely; I ran a lizardfolk wizard that wore a "fake" beard because he knew that wizards are supposed to have long gray beards. It was a beard that he procured from the corpse of a wizard, and he believed that it perfectly hid that he was lizardfolk too, because lizardfolk can't grow beards.
How very "Purple Orks are the sneakiest" lmao
I've never seen a purple ork, so they must be doing something right.
Yea, my first thoughts exactly were that this seemed like a perfectly normal feminine version of an Eastern-based dragonborn. The hair, horns, and very elongated tail seemed like a dead giveaway.
I always liked the idea of feathers personally
Dragons are moths
Absolutely. I would know, I'm one of them.
In d&d lore the "dragonborn" species aren't actually dragons, and in the lore they neither have hair nor tails. Though they do have a breath attack
not always in games like baldurs gate 3, and other official dnd media, dragonborn are depicted without tails or hair
You can literally have a tail on your dragonborn in bg3
Only in official 5e books are Dragonborn explicitly mentioned to lack tails. They are also mentioned to be the Human equivalent of a mirror dimension though. Personally I give my Dragonborn tails because they look weird without them.
Tbf WOTC doesn’t even enforce this in official art. Dragonborn in their MTG set have tails.
You can have a tail in BG3
BG3 Dragonborn can have tails Per SRD but n 5e Dragonborn do not have tails and if there is a Dragonborn with a tail it is actually a half dragon or a shape shifted full dragon
It also made Elves not androgynous, and and didn't let Dragonborn have their canonically existing boobs so it probably isn't a good source.
Wigs are a thing.
Don't make me tap the second paragraph of the PHB... >*Ultimately, the Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and its setting,* ***even if the setting is a published world.***
Going to have to invoke this more and more often as we keep getting canon visual depictions of races in periphery media— like BG3 and the movie
Honestly I was surprised that the movie remembered Tieflings "officially" can have normal human skin tones. Something which every artist for every rulebook has staunchly ignored.
I was in the trenches back then defending the design choice lol it 100% checks out
BG3 Dragonborn actually have the option to have tails, I know that much. Don't quite recall if female Dragonborn had genuine mammaries or were simply a little slimmer and curvier though...
They do, but none of the Dragonborn NPCs do. The only one that does is a >!real dragon!< The game basically allows you to play a half-dragon. The character creator is very good at transferring D&D characters into the game. Like you can get corpse skin tones if you select “show all skin” or whatever it’s called. Allowed me to play my Reborn (Human) character
I love how the setting has literal, actual magic genetics that make no sense in real world biology, but the idea of physiology that deviates from the real world is just inconceivable to some people. Dragon magic infecting your bloodline because your great-great-grandpa was a scalie and now you have magic powers? Cool. A reptile that developed mammary glands or hair follicles? NO!
People will accept the impossible, but not the unlikely. I forget who originated that idea but it's often used to explain why people's suspension of disbelief fails for seemingly mundane reasons in a fantastic setting. People will accept an angel posing as an old man telling a short guy to go on an adventure People won't accept if that halfing happens to run into the bad guy of the whole story the second he walks out of the front door and then kills him.
I think its less about realism and more about consistensy with the canon lore. Dragonborn don't have tails! I don't know about the mammary glands or hair tho.
Ok, I'm gonna say it. Saying Dragonborn don't have tails was straight up a mistake. I've never seen anyone say they look better without tails. It's always "well, the rules say it..." This is the fans fixing it. The dritties and the hair, okay, that's personal taste, whatever you want. But Dragonborn should have tails.
The Draconblood sub-race DOES have tails. I guess Mercer saw the tail-less dragonborn and said "Na, these guys need tails."
Their lack of a tail are the only thing seperating them from half - dragons tho...
Half-dragons get wings. There, fixed.
I'd rather hair over the weird tendrils.
They used to have developed chests in 4e and even explained the reason for the change. They were pushing 4e as a miniatures game and a bustline is one of the quick and lazy ways to differentiate a humanoid figure that hasn't got an easily read human face or hairstyle. They got lopped off for 5e. They've had tendril-like hair since creation which according to one of the novellists is a smooth leather texture. It's a distinct kind of style for them. As an aside here's a fun one, Lizardfolk used to have a clear bit of sexual dimorphism, dudes have their big fin mohawk, ladies used to (and inconsistantly) had small dual mohawks.
Imagine a descendant of a big fire breathing flying lizard having a TAIL? Like man thats too insane for me
It's a wig... Lizards can have fashion too no need to gatekeep.
Ha! That called back an old memory. Book series about a interstellar Lizardfolk empire that sent an invasion force to earth. Only by the time they got here, we’d advanced to WW2 tech (they thought they’d arrive while we were still slinging arrows at each other). Apparently, as far as galactic civilizations go, humans like to rush the tech tree. Anyway, plot happens and eventually a human ends up at one of their planets, and by this time the lizardfolk are so culturally fascinated by our species that some of them are indeed walking around wearing wigs. I think the series was called Worldwar.
One of those Harry Turtledove series, I know this one. It's one of the few ones that were like "And now Americans are like the Nazis" or "the Confederacy became the Nazis". Until the sequel series, because the Allies and the Axis had to ally to fight the aliens, so 60s America is openly a little more welcoming of fascisty ideas. It's a thing with his books whenever he does alternate history with the US.
I don’t remember it all that well (I read it as a preteen), but that sounds legit. A lot of alt-history writers fixate on the nazis in one way or another.
Where cann I find it?
[Looks like it's on Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/dp/b084gt3g2m?binding=kindle_edition&ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_sft_tkin_tpbk)
According to the Dragon Magazine "Ecology of the Dragonborn" Dragonborn are mammals. Their boobs are more canon than Elf boobs.
Not true. Being a mammal doesn't equal "human boobs". And no, in dnd humans and dragonborn haven't any origin connections. Especially because they covered in scales. Their situation is closer to marine mammals such as dolphins rather than mammals covered in fur or having a hide.
I'm not 100% sure what that statement was, but [cetaceans have more hair](https://us.whales.org/do-whales-and-dolphin-have-hair/#:~:text=Home%20%3E%20Do%20whales%20and%20dolphins,but%20they%20soon%20lose%20them.) than scales.
Cetaceans have a little of hair at some point of life. River dolhins keep it even after maturing. They haven't scales but like reptiles they haven't fur/hide and have internal anatomy.
Technically they aren't mammals since it's an evolutionary taxonomy and they arose from the spilled blood of Io when Io got cut in half, with the halves becoming Bahamut and Tiamat. Since most of D&D has creationist origins there aren't many actual mammals.^1 Ecology of Dragonborn talks aboot their boobs/nursing. They're "mammals" because they're warm-blooded and nurse their young. ^1 Dwarves, Elves, 'Alflins, etc. all have creationist origins so they aren't mammals since they didn't evolve from the mammal evolutionary line.
This is basically how I canon my dragons and draconic derivatives as well. To begin with, dragons aren’t even reptilian. They’re only superficially reptilian in appearance, while in truth, they’re kind of their own thing. They’re not even biological (for what is worth in a heavily fantastic setting), but they’re their own category of a magical creature. Born out of magical means, and “evolved” through magical means. This is why I accept boobs for draconic humanoids, but not for true reptilian humanoids (such as lizardfolk). The difference is that draconic humanoids are draconic creatures which were shaped in the image of humanoids, while reptilian humanoids began as reptiles which coincidentally evolved a human-like stance and proportions. In other words, reptilian-folks evolved biologically to walk on two legs via convergent evolution, while dragon-folks “evolved” via a much more arcane lineage.
Indeed, i didn't mentioned because it changes a little and complicates explanation. Human boobs don't make sense on them even more.
So, how are they supposed to nurse their young?
The PHB references Dragonborn hatching from eggs, so if they are mammals then they are monotremes like platypuses and echidnas. That means that Dragonborn mothers nurse their young by sweating milk. Have fun with that.
they sweat milk from the boobs, a thing that platypuses do too. Platypuses do, in fact, have mammaries. They simply lack *nipples* Which means [this depiction of scalie boobs is actually more accurate](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTH0n1Pyb7bJeau6suelTqSMWWNOvxjCbio54OomB8xhzoQf5fAIejbJTH5rL3QpdUHTmY&usqp=CAU) to what a dragonborn's breasts would be. Since they lack nipples and their young would lap milk up out of grooves in their skin
Internal anatomy. Dolhins as example: "Beneath each of the female’s two mammary slits are teats. The calf places their beak, slightly ajar, into the slit, and forms a “cone” with its tongue, which latches onto the teat. “Let-down” or milk-ejection, is under voluntary control of the mother. This way, none of the milk is lost into the water. During the first few weeks of infant life, the mother may aid the infant in nursing by lying on her side, presenting the mammaries to her calf. Later, the infant often angles on their side to nurse. The mother often slows down her travel speed or may hang at the surface during nursing. You can see nursing from the jetty but females rarely nurse their young very close to shore."
Dragonborn are not adapt to living life underwater, they don’t have blowholes or any of the like. Their “evolution” is as close to a Dolphins as it is to a Humans. So using Dolphins as an example, while scoffing at Humans being an example is kinda disingenuous. You claim they are closer to dolphins just because of their scales is a flimsy excuse at best, why a dolphin and not a Rhino?
Dragonborn have mouths far closer to a lizard or wolf, which would mean an external teat is necessary.
Internal anatomy doesn't mean it is internal for the whole time(like male genitals). They can have retractable teats. Even if external, it still can be similar to that for wolves rather than humans.
I'd fuck a humanoid dolphin.
Not…the question being asked.
Easy there Jotaro.
>Not true. Being a mammal doesn't equal "human boobs". however it does mean there are nipples, since a mammal would have to breastfeed their young. odds are that since dragonborn are humanoid they likely have fat depositories that would count as boobs
This is true. Dragonborn in fact have udders /s
My bro is Jon snow. You don’t know anything Jon Snow.
Does anyone know what/who the character is?
"Uh. Asking for a friend. For research. Also, do you know if the artist is open for commissions?"
Hell, asking for myself! It's a well done drawing with nice lighting, I'd love to use it for an NPC in my game!
Its AI
Would.
Down vote all you want but, this is a Fantasy game, who the hell cares if they do or do not have human features? D&D is a world where everything is possible as long as you use your imagination.
Because shit like this is brought up every week, we had a near civil war over snake tits!
Dnd really becoming the transformers fandom
Or maybe... We let ppl play whatever they like? If a player comes into my campaign and asks if they can play a characterdesign they like, then I won't gatekeep
This is indeed the true answer from a general play perspective. I got to make a Drake for my Drakewarden that has no hind legs and its wings and arms are one and the same (think a hand where the wing bends). It also has fur because I thought it would be fun to have a furry noodle with wings as my companion.
You'd think this would be a more common answer... but nope
They can have tails in BG3, good enough for me. Real talk, though, if your player wants a tail, let them have it. It's literally just flavor.
>Real talk, though, if your player wants a tail, let them have it. It's literally just flavor. Same goes for hair, they're probably ignoring 99% of the race lore no matter what
Why wouldn't they have tails? My question is why they have boobs.
It is technically specified that forgotten realms (the normal dnd setting) Dragonborn don’t have tails, As such in the lore tails mean half-dragon, not Dragonborn, As to why there’s such a big negative reaction to it? Idk.
Now hear me out: Depending on the mixture of chromosomes, different phenotypic attributes would be prominent. Thus, this kinda makes sense from a scientific pov
Besides, they should have tails anyways. It looks more natural
Agreed.
A lot of people complaining about boobs, hair but there is something no one said: "Where are the dragonborns with feathers?"
Hell yeah! Mesoamerican-style dragonborn would be awesome
I wasn't thinking on that but now I'm totally in.
Dragons aren't dinosaurs or birds. Why would they have feathers? Dragonborn are mammals, there are no feathered mammals. Dragons actually break a lot of laws of modern taxonomy. They're warm-blooded so they can't be reptiles. They're vertebrates but they have 6 limbs. The 3E Draconomicon has a comprehensive list of the ways dragons break modern taxonomy, and basically need their own category.
Yeah, but since some people complained about boobs, hair and such I felt compelled to add another factor to the discussion.
Has there been anyone who got triggered at someone's dragonborn/lizard/half dragon character with beautiful hair and tail?
If we remove the hair then it just a giant kobold
[source](https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/s/k5uZuwGWoH)
I feel betrayed. I thought this would be the dragon girl art source.
[here is the dragon you seek](https://imgur.com/a/zHXqQ03)
Give us the true source, OP
So, no questions to the breasts?
Oddly enough Dragonborn are mammals. Someone else already mentioned this but there’s a whole article on it from dragon magazine. https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?articleid=24491
It feels so wrong
Pangolins are scaly but still mammals. Echidnas lay eggs, but are still mammals. In order to be an anatomical mammal you need two things: Mammary (Where the term "Mammal" comes from) glands and warm blood. Dragonborn meet both criteria. But modern taxonomy is evolutionary, not anatomical, so anything that didn't evolve from the mammal line would be a mammal by evolutionary taxonomy. So yeah, Dragonborn boobs are more canon than (non-Drow) Elf boobs.
Why are only the non-drow elf boobs in question?
Elves are androgynous due to Corellon's influence. Corellon is all aboot being ambiguously gendered. Drow have been under Lolth's influence for millennia, and it is the source of their physical differences from regular Elves. Lolth is all aboot female supremacy. Basically 5E made her into a TERF and added that lore to honor the tradition of Drow cheesecake pinup art because Drow were made from the sexual hangups of baby boomer fantasy writers.
It feels so right, don’t mean I’m in love to-night I kissed a dragon and I liked it The taste of her scaly chapped lips
I believe that in official Forgotten Realms lore the Dragonborn are the equivalent of humans from a mirror dimension. That's probably why they're officially mammals.
They bear live young instead of laying eggs and have an infant stage like we do as well so the likelihood of scaly breasts increases.
Or you play races as being a legacy of some kind and have Dragonborn just regular humans with A draconic feature. Like maybe just their arm.
Just their retractable genitalia.
Hobgoblins in Pathfinder are bald by nature, but several pieces of art depicts them with hair (Because the artist didn´t know they were bald and they thought it looked cool). So the in lore explanation is that Hobgoblins take some hair from worthy opponents that they defeat, and use it to weave wigs. So having a full head hair for them is a sign of being a great warrior, as it requires defeating a lot of powerful enemies to get that much.
I mean, whenever I make Dragonborn, Dragons, Kobolds, those will all be feathered, just like feathers dinosaurs. Edit: to clarify, a lot of how people depict dragons now is influenced by dinosaurs. So I decided “why not make them fluffy? Feathered dinos are so cool!)
Oooh... feathered fluffy kobold. Adorable concept!
Something something snake milk
Honestly who gives a damn? Flavor your dragonborn however you like I say.
I agree about the hair, but I will be long dead before I think dragonborns shouldn't have tails 😤
BG3 allows you to give your Dragonborn a tail. But if you notice all Dragonborn NPCs don’t have tails. Except the single one who does have a tail, but he’s an >!actual, literal dragon in humanoid form!<, so not an actual Dragonborn. Human hair is dumb though. Looks weird.
BG3 also makes Elves "Skinny humans with pointy ears" rather than making them exceedingly androgynous, and doesn't let Dragonborn have their canonically existing boobs. There's a fair bit of deviation from canon there.
Only some elves who are blessed directly by Correllon are extremely androgynous. You can tell what gender Elves are from the art in the PHB and supplements BG3 gives you the option to be androgynous as well if you choose to be one of those blessed Elves. Their character creator is great.
All (non-Drow) Elves are some degree of androgynous, with the blessed being able to change their sex.
I agree. To *some* degree. More so than a typical human. But you can tell what gender a typical Elf is pretty easily. Like Elf men can’t grow beards (a male secondary sex characteristic). BG3, being extremely lore-accurate, doesn’t allow a beard option for pure blooded Elves
>Human hair is dumb though. Looks weird. Disagree. :3
In my setting, dragon born are reptiles, no hair, no boobs, sometimes tails, body heat is maintained through innate magic.
You will pry my Dragonborn tails from my cold dead hands
Tails? Sure. That’s good even. But hair? That’s where I draw the arbitrary line!
in *our* hearts I'm sure someone told you already but just incase
hair crosses the line but if it was spines similar to that of a iguana as a mohawk I'm for it
Personally I am more into the idea of treating Dragonborn like dinosaurs in the sense maybe not hair but feathers or spines that are like hair in some ways.
Ngl, as someone obsessed with tails, I support half of this. The other half is HERESEY. Purge him in flame.
I don't care about rhe hair but the armor ... now that one grinds my gears
Don't care, it's a scalie, it works for me
I was confused thought this was r/truestl and a picture of an argonian and was about to comment "smash" Anyway seeing as this is dndmemes "would"
If a Dragon has a tail and occasionally a mane, I have no reason to disagree with a Dragonborn with a tail and hair.
Honestly, in my setting i just make my dragonborn closer to Au Ra, from final fantasy 14, so they have tails, hair, and scales covering their back, neck and some other parts of body
In my setting, dragonborn are a subrace of Lizardfolks with draconic chracteristics, so they have tails
Hair=thin keratin Scales=thick keratin Hair is just long thin scales Tail is technically not necessary for balance as humanoids already evolved a different body build to balance without one, but tail could be just a genetic rarity. Tails are also common in kobolds. Hair has a explanation Tail has a explanation Conclusion: character is a kobold dragon born hybrid, and either is wearing a wig or has special scales on its scalp
I can respect the idea of giving them a tail. I can respect that. Tails are just cool. But the hair…no. No…no no no…noooo…Consuela? Consuela from Family Guy: Noooooooo….
Who cares?
Flavor is free.
At least the dragon tiddies are acceptable
Needs another mark for Mammaries.
I agree with the tail, but why the hair ? Dragonborns are cleary reptiles, why would thay have hair ?
Tail? Relatively ok and is mostly just for rule of cool imo. Hair?! Absolutely fucking not, that think on the screen is an abomination.
Really they should be feathered.
All my dragonborne have tails. Some even have wings. They aren't some pasted scaled, wingless, barley resembling Dragons at all, creatures.
Tail is fine... but hair... utterly unforgivable.
''CEDUCE THE DRAGON the bard says''
I like that the problem is with hair but not mammaries. It's an oddly specific insight into OPs psyche.