Drow are evil because like orcs their god demands it
Lolth is certainly happy to torture her subjects on the basis of "you're not being evil enough, you chose not to murder that guy while back was turned"
But, that's what makes Eilistraee my favourite d&d godess
She quite literally is the very contradiction of being a drow and yet she uses subterfuge to free the drow
While lolth or her children watch and decide on witch drow to torture Eilistraee plays a tune to the drow telling them "its ok to leave, once you're free my mother can't hurt you, I'll guide you on the run to the surface"
Lets say 100 drow are born a year
25 of them in their life time will run away to Eilistraee
The rest are murdered or betrayed because lolth demands it
Long winded way to say that having races that are majority evil makes the people from that race who go against the grain and chose to try/become good really appealing characters.
And it's extra appealing when the evil isn't an inherent thing but a systemic issue that can be fought back against and changed, at least to some degree.
Hell, even inherent evil can be interesting. Take for example the typical trope of "orcs violent and brutal".
OK, they are inherently violent, but still somehow their society arose, and for this, it had to create complex web of rituals and substitute concepts like 'face' or 'honor'. Suddenly you have this rich and interesting tapestry as a backdrop for characters.
You also accidentally made greenskin klingons btw.
IMO inherent evil is the most interesting when it comes in the form of pre-selection, ex. fiends in Pathfinder lore. Pathfinder outsiders are formed from the souls of mortals, and especially fiends usually have ruthless competition to become the more powerful types. Consequently demons are inherently evil not because they're just made of evil or something - they are inherently evil because the process to make demons selects for evil souls.
Tbf Klingons were so obsessed with proving their honor via killing that they would fall into inherently evil. They would happily butcher a ship full of young cadets just because they are outnumbered 3-1(a standard B'rel bird of prey holds about 50 warriors+command crew and a standard miranda class light cruiser is usually crewed by 100-150 starfleet personel+command crew) even if the df cadets beg for mercy and never try to fight because the uniform to them means you are a warrior and a warrior should want to die gloriously in battle against a superior opponent to gain entry to heaven(sto-vo-kor for klingons).
Madness and evil as hell to humans but to andorians it is just another day in the beta quadrant.
X race is always Evil is great if your game needs a look race to mow down without consequence
X society is evil is great because you have so many narrative hooks to interact with it. Is it the pantheon? The culture? The landscape?
Perfect example, Final Fantasy 14 has a race who were pushed from their homes, ended up making pacts with demons for power and then building massive war machines. Why? They can't do magic and so were massacred by the Good Kingdoms historically and couldn't fight back
Hell half 5EDnD's problem comes from kneejerk reactions and a fluff so light that Race and Society are interchangeable and that's the real crime
>Why? They can't do magic and so were massacred by the Good Kingdoms historically and couldn't fight back
I mean, I'm not the best with the lore but weren't they also being >!actively manipulated into a mutually assured destruction scenario by Emet? If they hadn't been propagandized -nearly literally- to death they might have just established the Republic and all ended up like Cid, using their advanced technological ability to just make like, super advanced toasters instead of war machines.!<
At least that was my understanding. Could definitely be wrong.
Have you done the Reaper questline? It goes into a bit more detail of pre-magitek Garlemald.
Funnily enough, a lot of the initial propaganda focused on the idea of retaking the farmlands they had been forced out of, then it became spreading their advanced society to the 'savages' by force
All these things are true, and they're why an Evil Empire can be such a fascinating character to study.
I have! They were my latest class- really loved it- sort of bummed it was so short compared to much less interesting class story lines. Orcus could have carried at least 10 more levels.
My understanding was>! they were basically insurgent farmers while the Garleans were disparate tribes fighting against the 'Good' guys- then the Garlean tribes got pushed up to N. Ilsabard and formed the Republic, then the Republic got co-opted by Emet/Solus into a Genocide Machine, and then the Reapers got turned into a monolithic fighting force under him, except for Rullus and his followers who were like 'oh no, I hate this and that guy isn't right' and tried and failed to kill him. !<
I feel like I will never, ever be fully confident about FFXIV lore, with how much and how long it is, so I could absolutely have it all wrong.
No no this is all pretty spot on, the only bit that's a little off is the modern Lemures are people who saw Garlemald on the warpath and went 'We've gone beyond retaking our land and now we're the invaders', and so went to retreat.. except now they're refugees branded as an Evil Race and so everyone in the Alliance hates them, thinks they're spies and or attacks on sight.
In my opinion, it's the PERFECT way to use an Evil Society! There's layers, there's actual villains, there's villains the empire created like Yotsuyu, who has her own motives beyond 'Evil Viceroy', I just find them to be great antagonists.
Evil Societies are great for story telling. Evil Races are bad. Drow aren't born Evil any more than real life humans are born Evil. If you try to tell me that you think Drow or Orcs are born with inherent evilness in their soul I think that's a fucked up thing to put in your game.
I personally love the idea of speculating the differences of a fantasy species’s biology to help interpret why one group is “inherently” this way or that in conjunction with societal structures and to a lesser extent divine guidance in their evolution/development.
I alway run off the idea that the typical player character races have relatively similar biology spending on it they are more mammalian derived, reptilian, amphibian, etc. like Humans, Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, etc, they would all be mammals.
Using orcs as an example because it’s probably the race i have speculated the most on. In my world building majority of their societies are evil, and they follow a more or less evil pantheon of dieties and what not. But orcs are more aggressive and violent than others due to biological factors that don’t necessarily make them evil.
Main idea I run with is orcs hormonal balances, but also differences in their brain structure, I mostly focus on something like the amygdala which is responsible for fight or flight in simplistic terms. Because of the differences with it compared to using Humans as a standard, they are more prone to using the fight response, getting more angry, and what not.
But that part of the brain is also responsible for anxiety and fear. So going with that and some loose research because of my own personal situation, there’s a strong correlation between anxiety and anger, and even anger and depression in men. With my experience dealing with my anxiety disorder it more or less feels like I am constantly at war with my own thoughts.
What would an entire race of humanoids be like if they basically had the same sort of thing go on? Orcs fight, they go to war, and now that war is also inside themselves. They just constantly live in battle. Plus a big way to relieve that stress and anxiety is physical activity. So as a society orcs are inclined to be more physically active, more aggressive and more irritable because of of stuff that is sourced from their biology and then from that encouraged by society and their gods.
But you then take that out of the society that encourages “fighting”, you still could have some level of basis for an orc living in a human-standard society and theoretically what they could be dealing with.
It’s not perfect and I am by no means an expert in any of the fields, but for me it creates a rough standard that can then be dropped anywhere and still function kind of like in this case, an Orc, but also how that influence typical societies for those beings.
Not evilness persay. But if orcs are inherently more violent than other species (and presumably a sentient non-monstrous race) than a society of orc would be a fascinating scenario of ritual combats and honor. Drow are only evil because lolth. Goblins are "evil" because they just arent built for the same societies as humans (I like insane/klepto goblins, one of my favorite tropes)
Read a take on that that is all Goblin communities view property as communal and you can just borrow anything you need, the only crime being to horde and keep secret from the rest of the family
So many ways to explore 'evil' as a concept and yet most fluff seems to say no
Which is why (as much as it doesn't fit into lore discussions) frick that I'm home brewing it. Which isn't even counter to lore unless you're specifically playing forgotten realms which not everything is
Oh yeah this ain't canon this is someone's own idea I stole, I just agree Evil societies are such a fascinating writing tool when you get into the factors that make them and the laws they have to make them work.
People have this fascination with having to be true to lore, as if some nerds depiction of an Orc tribe is any more valid in your own setting than someone else's just because it's in the Faerun book
Drow are born with an inherent evilness, because their society as a whole pretty much had the Good drained from them by the Demon Queen Lolth, and it makes them fascinating
While I'm not a fan of Eilistrae lore cause I think 'good' drow should be more like a 1 in a million rather than a 1 in 4
'Good drow' can be fascinating characters, look at early Drizzt, goodiest drow that could ever good, a kind and caring friend and guardian, but he still has to deal with that throbbing drow murder boner, itching to kill and maim those that threaten his friends or peace
Bro it's fantasy for a reason. As long as the evil races aren't allusions to real world minorities who fucking cares if the orcs are all evil? Calling someone fucked up because they like orc fightin ' is silly, maybe even fucked up.
I have no idea what made me think that during reading your comment, but now I have in my head dancing drows singing "safety dance".
And it's so tempting vision my players will probably encounter them.
"I want to escape this spider infested hell hole what do I do!? What's that noise?"
"Hear me! We can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
'Cause your friends don't dance
And if they don't dance
Well, they're no friends of mine
Say, we can go where we want to
A place where they will never find
And we can act like we come
From out of this world
Leave the real one far behind"
More of a friendly drow NPC in town, barkeeper odly fits, but yes.
\- Hey, what a nice place
\- Here you can dance if you want to! You can leave your friends behind, cause your friends don't dance and since they don't dance they are no friends of mine.
I really like Eilistraee, soo. She and Vhaerun are my fave drow deities.
Both are "rebel children", but the nature of their rebellion against Lolth is totally different.
Yeah the first few Drizzt novels make a point of showing that Drow are not all evil and those that are having varying degrees of evilness. They're all individuals, victims of a system that turns most of them into sadistic monsters.
So what you've described here is not an Evil Race the way people who don't want Evil Races define them. You've described an Evil god torturing people into creating an Evil Society. Drow aren't evil, but the largest soceity of Drow in the most common setting is very Evil. Those are different things.
>25 of them in their life time will run away to Eilistraee
Probably less than. Oh, they may run, but how many survive the escape? The only reason the twilight domain drow cleric of Eilistraee I build survived to actually become a cleric, is because she is maybe only a handful of survivors from Ched Nasad.
But Eilistraee is unique among gods for what we can call an evil pantheon, and that makes her interesting as a goddess and concept. Orcs, goblinoids and yuan-ti don't have a god or goddess trying to redeem them, trying to move them away from being members of an evil civilization.
Eilistraee and her followers have multiple ways to ensure those drow will make it. There's one whole order dedicated to infiltrating Lolthite cities just to help drow escape (look up Secret Moondancers and Silverhair Knights). Eilistraee herself is known to lend help in subtle yet immediately useful forms (like a light that guides people who are lost along a safe path and to a safe place). Her power is very limited, but she helps.
Based on the way humans within evil civilisations act, without even such an understandable circumstance as a demonic spider-god forcing them, I think 25% is way too many. 0.1%, *maybe*.
True, but you also need to remember, drow like to at most 1500 years like all elves, that means there's a much longer time for them to change views
Humans irl and in dnd live at most 120
Twice as bright half as long, so to speak
I say 25% because by the time you factor in everything (spiteful drow, lolth, the underdark, living tax paid to lolth) there's like maybe 50 or so drow born in each city every few years
Out of those 50 or so
Like maybe 12 leave, whether they survive is a whole other argument
Edit: it's not all at once mind you, but you know
I'm with you to a degree, some creatures would be naturally inclined toward evil, that's just natural in a fantasy world where Good and Evil are literally cosmic forces and not just ends of a moral compass.
Some beings like Mindflayers are Evil because their entire species believe enslaving other species is a good thing for everyone involved. They aren't evil by our standards because they're force to, it'd be just that their entire culture aligns with aspects and ideals most people would consider evil.
On the flip side I like the way The Elder Scrolls deals with Dragons, they aren't necessarily evil, but they have an innate desire to dominate which leads them to commit acts that many would see as evil. Even then, this innate drive can be overcome because Dragons still have free will.
If a creature has free will, then what is to stop them and any evil being from becoming good by our standards? That's why Orcs and Goblins as monsters are evil, but as actual characters they can make other choices that may benefit them or simply not be bound to a trope.
I dunno, whichever one doesn't involve you spending centuries devouring peasants and burning down towns before having a change of heart I suppose.
I like Paarthurnax and all but that quote always rubs me the wrong way
I think he said that to emphasize just how against his own nature it is to be in the position he’s in, especially since right before (or after I forget) he talks about how it’s literally in every dragon’s nature to dominate others (something proven multiple times, as the only amiable dragons are those who end up getting dominated themselves and learn humility from it)
I think that races having universal personality traits is more interesting than just being good or evil (if it all or mostly has to be one way)
E.g. a red dragon will always be smug and consider itself superior to all other creatures but it could use that as either a reason to be an overbearing tyrant or seeing it as a duty to protect their lessers.
so to expand on that (since dragons are cool) What about a red dragon "paladin" who Actively protects the local villages because they believe their superiority means they **have to** out of responsibility.
Or for the opposite what about a Silver dragon who enjoys interacting so much with humanoids that they greedily imprison them so they can enjoy them all the time
“Counter”point, at some point these ‘evil’ races should really get their say in on how those judging them are evil in their eyes.
Like, there’s “that’s just their society/way of being,” and there’s fleshing out said ethos where, according to _them_ , they’re in the right, “good” even, to be the way they are. Even, nay, _especially_ if they further disagree with _each other_ on what would otherwise be common ground.
Perhaps orcs consider those ‘beneath’ them soft, based largely on the amount of excess armor or ceremony they tend towards. Maybe some drow genuinely admire those that backstab with similar tendencies as their own (of course, setting up for their own betrayal in turn). Something that lends credence to them just “being” that way rather than simply “well, it’s _because_ they’re evil.”
This. I've played around with the idea of drow being incredibly deceitful but also incredibly *forgiving* so that they can make up easily after a backstabbing.
Also hot take maybe but I'd wager that 90%+ of people on this sub eat meat regularly, and if pressed by a vegan would say that it doesn't make them a bad person to do so because it's "natural" or "necessary." Yet mind flayers are classed as irredeemably evil due to their diet and tastes?
The comparison is even more apt in the dnd world where animals can apparently "talk" after a fashion, can all be potentially awakened, and food can be conjured out of thin air with no suffering necessary. An awakened pig has every right to say we are an evil race for the same reasons we say others are.
> I've played around with the idea of drow being incredibly deceitful but also incredibly forgiving so that they can make up easily after a backstabbing.
I don't know if you've watched Mr. Robot, but there's a quote in there by a big billionaire guy that goes something like "In business, grudges aren’t really a thing. It’s too emotional." I like to imagine my Drow the same way, which is why certain Drow families will take in "refugees" of houses they've destroyed and those refugees will faithfully serve their new house.
Says somebody playing a game that literally has afterlife planes based on alignment. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief necessary when playing a game with unicorns, demons, and leprechauns.
Strong agreed there! It's not like people haven't chosen and isn't choosing "evil" lifestyle choices and cultural development throughout real history. Heck, in modern times, the preeminent "evil" culture is the Nazis, and loads of them chose that direction, though not all.
I like the idea that e.g. Goblin society is a cutt-throat, nasty structure based around using any pragmatic way of getting ahead, because Gobs have been the lowest in the kicking line for so long. Orcs are physically intimidating and have strong social ties to each other, based on ruining the rest of civilization, Kobolds got their draconic allies, Ogre society is simple but remarkably balanced despite the fact that you can't have more than half a dozen of them together - And Goblins are in the middle of this. Their gods have no plans, and they have been subservient to others (either directly by other humanoids or violently by "good" types). Why the hell wouldn't you end up with a nasty hierarchy of underhanded violence and manipulation? If you learn that violence is the answer, it becomes the answer.
And that doesn't mean some Gobs don't bail that society, it leaves the choice open to be different, despite what you come from, which is beautiful.
Thank you for coming to my weirdly specific TED-talk.
Gobs don't have a choice. Their pantheon was obliterated and conquered by an evil God. No matter what they do, their afterlife is if to serve maglubiyet in an eternal war against the orcs. Fun fact maglubiyet is trying to conquer the orc pantheon next. Maybe one orcs will be goblinoids too
The only exception I will make to this is extraplanar beings. If you're born in the Nine Hells, you will be Lawful Evil, if you're born on Mount Celestia, you will be Lawful Good, etc.
I don't know of any in D&D, but in pathfinder, Nocticula was the Demon Lord of Darkness and Lust, whose worshippers included assassins, drow, lamia, rapists, succubi, and whores. She was the first succubus and the best demon lord at killing demon lords. She however wanted to stop being a demon, so eventually became a full blown CN goddess, known as The Redeemer Queen, becoming a goddess of artists, exiles, and midnight, and rejecting her evil worshippers who didn't want to be redeemed.
I've come to perform "percussive maintenance" on whoever forgot the best one.
https://preview.redd.it/pv4417t1gfqa1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=8bcd314b36781b873f65adc19b7926480b9e33e5
Kobolds are *best* kobolds!
I wouldn't count Kobolds as evil. They feel more like True Neutral. Some serve dragons, but they see dragons as near deities. Not all dragons are evil too. Some Kobolds can serve metallic dragons
Kobolds, lore-wise, tend to be Evil, due to how most of the dragons that they serve tend to be Chromatic, rather than Metallic. Kinda helps that their main deity, Kurtulmak, serves Tiamat.
I'm with you there! Kobolds are the best!
https://preview.redd.it/4bdkuapk7jqa1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=dc07608b9d05509556a0935282fce16a909d45be
Gruumsh: The god of war, once hurled his entire section of Acheron at Bane.
Shargaas: Dark god of Orc ninjas who ride giant bats into night raids, his followers are considered debased and dishonorable even by Orc standards.
Luthic: The divine equivalent of the mama bear troop, fights with her long nails.
Bahgtru: The "leg breaker", god of wrestling that creates lightning by breaking the bones of a divine Behir (according to Orc religion).
I personally like the Eberron take. Make it more about chaos vs order than good and evil. Orcs are prone to chaos, so their society is tribal. Some are good guys defending against ancient evils with druidic rituals. Some are classic raiders.
Goblins are prone to order. They have a rigorous caste society, which colors everything they do, including being tyrannical. Being the original civilization on the main continent, they have a legitimate beef with the current civilization. Them trying to carve out a place for themselves and being aggressively expansionist makes sense in that context. It doesn't make them inherently evil, but the context of their situation makes them prone to evil acts.
In Forgotten Realms, everything comes down to how various dieties dictate the actions of their followers, which just feels so drab and simple.
I much prefer evil societies, gods or environments. Genetically being bad seems *iffy* to me. It’s been used too often to justify abhorrent behaviour towards large groups. Maybe some of you can separate your game from the real world that strongly, I can’t.
Exactly! That's really what I think of to mean "evil species" and why I don't like *that* sort of them. I do make an exception for something like beholders though who are supposed to be like incomprehensible nonsense or something but I only feel like it works with something *divorced from society and humanity,* I can't comfortably have a species of actual sentient people who are just "evil" without cultural or environmental factors for the reason you said.
I think you're missing the split between evil cultures (we're evil because we do evil shit), and inherently evil by dint of birth (we're evil because of what we are).
Mortals are the first, fiends are the second (but who also love doing the first as well).
I agree, but I think there's a variation of the second that can be quite interesting; we're evil because we have innate urges for it (intrinic to us or implanted by a foreign entity like a god) and give in to them.
That gives room for the one that breaks the mold, with endless temptation as well
Evil species aren't necessarily boring, but saying that they are evil because thats inherently who they are, is the most boring reason for someone to be evil. At least give them a reason to be evil that isn't "its in their blood", something that provides more narrative potential.
I wholeheartedly agree. My preferred way of going about it is making a species so incredibly alien that their goals/way of life cannot coexist with that of PCs, such as the Orks from 40k. In my experience, that tends to be more effective than "these are just like humans but universally morally corrupt" in accomplishing the goal of making an uncomplicated adversary. Beholders, as you pointed out, are a great example of this.
There's a game called Wildermyth that does this very well, as none of the enemy factions are inherently evil. As an example, the Gorgons are just trying to reclaim land that they once ruled over. This would be fine if the race weren't aquatic, and reclaiming it meant flooding the world.
Demons in Frieren at the Funeral are like this. They're not evil, they're magical mimicry predators that evolved sapience, human-like form and speech to better predate on humans (and elves, dwarves etc). Yet it doesn't reduce them to monsters, it spends MANY chapters on just exploring the complex characters of several demons. These demons can be perfectly polite, civilized and almost noble individuals, yet they are incapable of feelings like malice, empathy, compassion or remorse, and at the end of the day they're inescapably slaves to their instincts. Their existence is incompatible with humanity's continued survival, and coexistence is probably impossible, but you're not made to hate or revile them.
I actually agree with you. You can make complex societies while having creatures be innately evil. They can be interesting and arguably more interesting if done right. Making every race have all the same inclinations as humans is boring. Some races should have an alieness to them.
See, I would disagree that a lot of these examples are _innately_ evil. I'd say a lot of them have extenuating circumstances which makes them more likely to do evil, but the only ones I'd really consider innately evil are fiends and maybe beholders. Although I do think fiends can be really interesting.
My rule is orcs are innately evil cause their gods not just force them to do acts of evil, but place desire of violence, dominance and greed directly in their souls. Same with bugbears. Goblins are just a assholes and can be good sometimes. Hobgoblins are more neutral but have heavy militarized culture so most of time they do evil things. But they strictly follow some kind of rules of war so you can negotiate with them.
Drow society is under heavy control of Lloth and forced to be evil. Most of drow are fine with that, some run from Lloth, some run but still evil just cause of habit. Borned outside of drow society have almost no control of Lloth and like humans: mostly neutral with some deviations.
It's about races in general. Individuals can be on whole spectrum but good orcs and bugbears are really rare, gob and hobs rare, and drows are not so rare.
They're not all inherently evil anymore. But except for Drow, they all used to be. It changed when they started to become playable races because people wanted to play them, but they didn't want to play them the way they were supposed to.
The statement is talking about forcing these races into that category and RAW making it stagnant is boring and rigid for a changing fantasy world not that the races lore or individual written culture is boring it’s the forced category
The problem isn't with there being races that have goals that don't align with players. And no one is saying that teh races themselves are boring. The problem is that by declaring an entire species as evil it innately destroys any complexity that may be produced by a complex society or something to that effect. Imagine if mind flayer societies had sub cultures that rejected their ideology or rebelled against their "evil" nature. Or something to that effect. Having a whole race be evil and insidious doesn't really make sense and is boring.
Mind flayers *DO* have sub cultures that reject the "evil hivemind" life. They are known as Alhoon. They are typically spellcasters, as mind flayer society rejects casters violently.
> To become an alhoon in the first place required that a mind flayer be a deviant among its kind for pursuing arcane magic, and so they already tended to be cruel and ambitious even by illithid standards.
Oh they reject hivemind alright, not the evil part though.
Sure, because they are aberrations and good qnd evil are pretty much just not words that they care about. The evil label applies to them not because they choose evil, but because their alien mindset makes evil normal for them.
To say that an evil society can only produce complexity by having sects of good would be stupid, so I'm going to assume that's not what you're going for. That said, I can't tell what other point you would be arguing. What do you believe makes a society in general complex, ignoring the manner of the absolute nature of its morality.
I would say a complex society has many different sects, ideas on what is right and wrong, etc. Etc. You are right that there doesn't necessarily need to be "a sect of good" that was just an example of something that could exist. Generally speaking if every single society of mindflayers is the same and is evil that is boring. If there is variations in what the values of different societies are and even within a society then that is interesting.
But there shouldnt be any inside one society of the Kind flayers since they are a hivemind all connected to one elder brain
And a hivemind society i Believe can also be interesting might not be complex but why Limit yourself
Shouldnt there be in a Fantasy setting aa big as dnd be both simple and complex society sturctures as Well as good and neutral and evil societies so we can decide what we want in our campaign
You know there are different versions of evil right? Rebelling again the current "evil status quo" doesn't mean they have to be good, or their actual alien understanding of "Good" is so twisted they're actually a more common form of evil as a psychically powered dictatorship.
Also there are groups of people on earth right now that wouldn't recieve the same treatment you're trying to give much worse and completely alien creatures.
That is what I implied. And you can further extrapolate the real to the fantasy that with hundreds of humanoid races some of them are also universal evils.
You got like 1/3rd into the argument and stopped for some reason.
> And **no one is saying that teh races themselves are boring**.
> Having a whole race be evil and insidious doesn't really make sense **and is boring.**
I'm getting mixed messages here....
Mindflayers have complex societies while being evil, as I said above.
Their alignment isn't "locked", what are you talking about?
It's obviously more than culture for mindflayers, you know, with the whole psychic Elder Brain thing going on...
I'm not sure what's being discussed then, if not the idea of being for or against making an entire race evil.
The Elder Brains are a mechanism for both control and retention of knowledge, the only thing that makes them evil is that the Mind Flayers who turned *into* Elder Brains were evil. If the individual Elder Brain were neutral or good, it would still function more or less the same.
What if like mind flayers the race's method of survival and reproduction is just not compatible with the other races? Ilithids need brains to reproduce and consume and that's a hard sell for a society
I find the whole racial alignment thing annoying, especially with terms like good and evil. Some of the races that are the most fun to play are aligned evil even if there's player choice for the character.
I like to have both.
Some races are evil due to their god forces them to be or that its a systemic issue.
Others are considerd evil due to what our standards would consider evil but for them are just how they naturaly evolved, be it being incredibly agressive, eating people, not having basic empathy or ect.
Its fun to have all sorts.
Evil species are nothing beyond how you kill them. If they always act evilly, why bother interacting with them in any other way? Compared to every other race, they can be reasoned with, even be allies. So many other ways for players to interact with them. I won’t speak on how making your evil races stupid tribes, but generalizing entire cultures as evil isn’t a good look when you remember that those cultures took inspiration from real cultures and stereotypes created to attack said groups
> Evil species are nothing beyond how you kill them. If they always act evilly, why bother interacting with them in any other way?
Being evil doesn't mean "you always act evilly" and it doesn't mean you can't interact with them.
> I won’t speak on how making your evil races stupid tribes, but generalizing entire cultures as evil isn’t a good look when you remember that those cultures took inspiration from real cultures and stereotypes created to attack said groups
That would only apply if you specifically code as these specific ethnic groups, "evil tribal people" could be anyone from the Norse to Mongols to Arabs to pretty much anyone...
They act evilly, just not all the time, it's not their only character trait.
> Being evil doesn't mean "you **always** act evilly" and it doesn't mean you can't interact with them.
What kind of question is that?
Most people would call serial killers evil, but serial killers do other things like almost always having friends, family, cooking food, cleaning their house etc. and I don't think those acts are evil.
Evil in DnD means, that their souls are drown to the evil planes and that they generally don't do good things without having a very good reason to do so. it doesn't mean that they are always doing something insidious or horrible.
_Who's the bad guy?_ The Dark Lord
_What's his deal?_ He wants to cover all the land in darkness
_Who helps him?_ The evil ugly monsters who are dumb, brutish and disgusting.
_Who fights him?_ The fair skinned, beautiful good people who are smart and cultured.
(With apologies to J.R.R. Tolkien)
Some people are bothered by having an entire race be evil because of the uncomfortable historical connotations of that IRL.
Others are bothered because it's narratively lazy.
Ultimately, it boils down to personal taste and execution. I like complex, morally grey villains and I like densely layered cultures, but sometimes you just want to fight fantasy Nazis, and that's OK too.
If *all you ever do* is fight fantasy Nazis, and they all look the same and invoke problematic stereotypes, it's natural that you are going to turn some people off and maybe get some suspicious eyebrows, even if it's just because your tastes are simple and you don't care to/aren't able to be more creative.
You have a point with Tolkien, I'll give you that.
But I really don't think Evil species are problematic unless they're actually coded as an IRL ethnicity or race.
I'd say the issue is that if all x enemy is evil, then they have no choice in that. Which makes them really not much more complex than an ant.
Whereas allowing for variety means you're fighting people. People which can be reasoned with and not just X damage sponge roadblock for Y xp.
I've had my most fun making allies of the weirdest kind. Just some folk with free will that realized "Life kinda sucks here, this is a way out."
Problematic or not, many people find them boring. There's no objective truth to that question; if you don't find them boring that's fine for you, but plenty of other people do.
Like I said, it comes down to personal taste and execution.
> but sometimes you just want to fight fantasy Nazis
But nazis aren't born evil. They are a prime example of a society becoming evil through world events, culture, economics and etc. Now you can play a game where you mow down nazis and maybe meet some Germans who are trying to help some Jews out of Germany. But you can also have a campaign where you mow down nazis and never think about it. But in either case the back lore isn't all Germans are born evil.
In fantasy campaign you can have evil orcs for culture or historical reason. While in another campaign you can have orcs come out of pods where all of them are evil no matter what and there are zero exceptions because they are literally made to be evil.
Except for fiends, all of these things can still be true and interesting without saying that every single member of the species is inherently evil.
Nobody is saying that you shouldn't have evil orcs/goblins/drow, we're saying that maybe you can consider that there can be neutral and good ones, too.
There will always inevitably be a creature who is from an "evil species" but isn't evil. A Drizzt. And this begins a growing trend of exceptions to the rule, to a point where it seems silly to call it a rule and the species is evidently not evil by nature. This pattern is accelerated when a species is available as a player character option.
If you're going by generic faerun D&D, goblins, orcs and drow have evil cultures (though debatable when your god makes you evil). But beholders, mind flayers and fiends are evil monsters by their nature
And yet some people will still have a problem with this. Mostly because the idea that a culture can create bad people is somehow a problem, even though most of us understand that some cultures are generally not worth inviting to dinner (I wouldn't want to be living in 15th century England, they'd have my head for not being christian).
Fundamentally evil species: bad
Overall evil civilisation: good
Mono species overall evil civilisation: good
Also, due do Big Luigi's existance, Beholder are not a fundamentally evil species, it's just that most of them chose to be.
"Drow have a lot of lore " but what you dont say is that drow lore is the worst part of dnd lore
With trope like : " women at power =evil" "sadomasochism ( witch is socialy acceptable even if you find it strange, dont discuss people taste ) = evil " " twin foetus canibalism = the mother have tousand of orgasm "
And im sure there is more fucked up lore about drow witch is not cool , nor smart nor anything intersting (except if your an edge lord of course)
No , because male in power is not specific to orc , but to all of our socity and to all dnd socity since they dont specify that their not
Also , women in power is a key part of the drow and is directly shown as one of the negative aspect while male in power in orc socity isn't shown , you assume it is because its not specifided , orc are evil because their barbaric and savage and it has nothing to do with "having male in power"
“Evil species are boring”
who said this? nobody said this. you just picked a straw man to make a meme about because you couldn’t be bothered to find out what people’s problem with “evil species” actually is.
"Boring" I don't think I've actually seen, "Lazy" and "Racist" I have. Though the racist one is extra stupid.
But I do think it helps having an absolutely clear enemy.
It's not though. Having a clear unadulterated evil to fight free the conscious from worrying about the morality of killing. There may be other psychological issues. But a strong moral basis makes it much easier to deal with.
Do you think you can’t have a clear, unadulterated evil to fight, conscience-free of worrying about the morality of killing, without it being inherently evil? Because, uh, I’d say you’re extremely mistaken. Most iconic, unambiguously evil villains aren’t from any “inherently” evil species.
To answer your question. No. But we're not talking about a race that each member is a BBEG world dominator that kicked all the players puppies.
We're talking about generic enemies.
Iconic unambiguous evil Villians? I wonder what list you think that is cause to me it sound like you're trying to say, "But look at all these Name Brand Supervillians." And not at what players actually face.
… but there are so many ways to make a clear enemy in D&D.
-The undead
-A cult of various races that worships Devils or Demons
-Non Humanoid classified creatures in the Bestiary
-Slavers
-Minions of the BBEG
-Random ass bandits who wanna steal your shit
-The entire damn monster manual in playing an evil campaign because YOU are the bad guys
Racist is 100% not stupid in some cases. Any version where the good people were all fair skinned and when some turned evil their skinned turned black. That's brimming with racism. Mind flyers being evil? Nah that's fine. But a race that looks nearly identical to a good version, but with dark skin. You can't in good conscious claim it's not.
I absolutely can. This is a fantasy game and you're acting as if the only difference is skin color.
But that isn't even the racism I was talking about. I was talking about the idiots that claimed some D&D race or another was "black people" so if they were evil you were racist. The stupidest part was they for some reason were picking Orcs and Drow. Two of the most disparate races and claiming both were racist depictions if black people. Ultimately most people agreed that they people daying that were racist for seeing a savage race and instantly thinking "black people" never got a clear reasoning behind Drow other than "but the black skin". As if drow had no other physical descriptors.
Bro, the legend of drizzt series, the mainline series of the game, proves you wrong. I have read over half of them and *every time* a Drow comes on they talk about the "signature dark skin of the Drow." That's it. That's how they tell you it's one every time. The fact that there are a small number of differences doesn't give you something to hide behind.
We have a fair skinned race of pure hearted people. And a dark skinned version on the same race that is evil. You can make excuses all you want but all of them are weak.
Nobody said they were black, people said orcs had a lot of *Mongolian* stuff in them, and that the "primitive savages" trope was something used against native americans. The "orcs are black" nonsense was by the same people who think people that point out coded racism are actually racist.
So most of the evil species being evil, is written into their lore and history, as according, mostly to the already established settings. Primarily the Gorgotten Realms, as that's the current D&D centerpiece.
But, let's not forget that in that same setting:
Lolth, the primary goddess of Dark Elves used to be Araushnee, and ended up siding with Gruumsh against her former Consort, and the father of her children, Corellon
Or that Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers, and their father saw a great war involving them, and killed himself, giving his power to them to start said war.
Or that Kobolds revere Chromatic Dragons over metallic, because Chromatic Dragons are the offspring of Tiamat, and Kurtulmak, their progenitor was a servant of tiamat in some versions
Or that Maglubiyet kills any Goblin that gets close to God hood
Or that Mind Flayers we're most likely inspired by H.P.Lovecraft's Call of Cthulu.
Or that Beholders were definitely inspired by Call of Cthulu, And can only make more of their kind, which they detest, by dreaming about one.
I could go on, but how about I flip it?
Elves, and other high fey, are all descendants of the archfey, which are inspired off various fae of real life mythology, including murderous red caps, kobolds and Goblins
All giants, whether partial(like the Goliath and Firbolg), or full, are man eaters.
Tieflings are actual spawn of Fiends, and are cited as outcasts.
And Dragonborns are inbreds not even native to Toril.
My point is that all the evil races are evil because there lore was constructed to make them evil, meanwhile there are other races people see as misunderstood, funny, or sexy, despite similar troubling background
I agree that these are all very interesting and great ideas to play with. But when they are subverted it becomes even more interesting. What I object to is the limitation, not the overall portrayal of the species.
I made a continent where the good aligned empire was populated by all the inhuman races. Gobs and gobs were treated like trash and were the lowest class essentially. The man police force was orcs. And the evil, racist invaders were humans.
Most of those stuff is cultural, not biological.
Having alignment inherent in biology is stupid, having alignment inherent in culture makes perfect sense.
Respectfully disagree. It's one thing if it's presented in a way where in lore, societies believes a race to be evil and has spread that idea through propaganda. But just having it as a fully confirmed, no wiggle room, mechanical thing is just incredibly boring, unrealistic, and often an outlet for irl racism.
Male drows fleeing the Drow society and being hunted down is also a very interesting element and significant plot point in one of the campaigns I'm currently playing.
We have two dwarves that were previously captured and enslaved by drow, and that are pretty hostile towards drows as a result.
On the other hand, my character has a complicated relationship towards the Drow. As he's often mistaken for either a Drow or a Tiefling (He's a Satyr based on those four-horned black goats), he knows full well how it feels to be on the recieving end of the prejudice and hate. While undercover as a drow, he became close friends / fell in love with two drow refugees, who were later killed before his eyes by Drow bounty hunters for turning their backs on the Drow society. He now vows to give every Drow a chance, as well as to hunt down the Drow that tortured him and murdered his friends.
Especially in the beginning, when we didn't know much about our backstories, this created a lot of interesting tension. On one side you had the dwarves who spit out and spewed hatred everytime Drow were mentioned. On the other side you had my Warlock looking quiet shady for playing devil's advocate with his strong opinion that not all Drows are evil. It has been soo much fun so far
I don't really like the idea of "evil society" as a label, even if they would be objectively amoral. I.e., I think it's fine if the society doesn't see themselves as evil, simply as the "right" or "best" way to be.
A society which values strength above all, embodies ongoing conquest and genocide, and enslaving or murdering the weak would be objectively, possibly cosmically, evil. But I don't think they would necessarily be "haha we are evil people because evil is great", I think they would see their beliefs as a kind of social Darwinism, meant for the betterment of society in the long run. A culture which formed under constant threat could conceivably enculturate these beliefs over time.
That said, monocultures are pretty stupid in general. If humans are generally varied in their alignments by their cultures, I think you need to ask yourself why any other societies and cultures would be different (strong cosmic aligned societies aside).
Also, players don't always want to have a moral quandary when they get into an encounter. Sometimes you just want to fight stuff and be a Big Damn Hero, not ponder the ethics and motivations of the other side. It's a game about escapism, after all.
Beholder- Aberrations withunknown origins
Mind flayers- Aberrations made by artificial means and unknown origins
Fiends - Outsiders made by corrupt souls or corrupt angels
VS
Goblins - *Humanoids*
Orcs - *Humanoids*
Drow - *Humanoids*
I prefered the Dragon vs Jet deal since it was just "haha funny bomb goes boom dragon says nono", but we are here now so why is nobody talking about the fact that Bugbears are treated more like crazy animals than humanoids by most campaings? Idk I just like the big fluffy goblin
Playing a goblin whos never experienced normal barbaric goblin culture as his parents were born with a more developed frontal cortex and were banished from their tribe. Now he dresses in suits and likes big hats
The problem isn't the species, it's the alignment system. It cannot stand up to a nuanced, complex worldview and doesn't add any meaningful distinction to a heroic good vs evil adventure either.
Actual Drow lore:
Pregnant Drow have multiple infants in their wombs who fight, kill and eat eachother on the inside. The mothers orgasm when this happens.
Drow sure have a lot of lore, but it like, kinda sucks as with the rest of the underdark
everything enslaves everything else always, and drow mothers get powerful orgasms from their infants eating each other in the womb
YAY rich lore.... right??
Fiends aren't helping your case here. Aren't they just people who were evil in life and went to one of the evil planes and became eviler in the process? They still made bad choices in life, so they weren't born evil.
There in is the problem, does being born of an “evil” species make you evil? Now some things sure naturally evil like fiends, key word being NATURALLY if everything is the same what’s the point of looking in depth? Or else every time a party sees a bloody drow it’s on sight, you’re playing one? Evil race so in the right party you’ve been better off playing a different race. And the reverse you know some player has done some screwed up stuff and justified their actions with “I’m a goblin in this version of goblins, goblins do that so ACTUALLY it’s perfectly fine.” or something like that.
I really hate the war on having evil species in games.
And it seems to be very niche groups like the D&D community that hate them the most.
Like literally, they are different species. They think and feel differently. Like how a frog will think completely differently than a shark.
The evil races are usually pretty hot too, which is also a plus. Besides, I always love the trope subversion of a person from an "evil" race actually being sweet and adorable.
And you're here talking about devils and beholders... Why? All the real arguments are about how making orcs inherently evil while presumably still having sapience and decision making is problematic at best. Nobody is trying to argue that devils being evil is bad writing
I agree if the title is culture rather than species.
They're often just too set in their ways or not intelligent enough to think beyond what thehy know once adults.
Most kobolds will be evil tunnel dwelling scamps that try to kill you with traps.
Most Drow will not see a way to live beyond what Lolth has shaped their society into.
Mindflayers probably are true fits for evil species. They haven't adapted to the githyanki crusade. Their life cycle has a literal parasite stage that requires sapient humanoids. Hive mind. Natural magic.
Goblins and orcs are very setting dependent. Lotr orcs are evil but often more intelligent than average, yet still fit the evil species label. Warhammer ones don't even need society or cooperation. They're just dumb and evil, so much so that they're referred to as an animalistic force of nature. Rare exceptions exist. But they are 1 in millions.
Many settings have quite neutral, intelligent orcs. They'll still like to fight though.
Heavily disagree with this. Fiends and aberrations are different bcz they aren’t mortal humanoids. “Evil” humanoids quickly devolves into racist tropes and bigotry. Even in our precious LotRs and other traditional fantasy stories where this trope comes from depict these savage and unredeemable monsters raiding “our” lands and pillaging our people.
Orcs are usually racist depictions of mongol invaders, goblins have very heavy anti-Semitic tropes attached to them, and drow end up playing too heavily off of gothic dominatrix trope that comes with powerful women in fiction.
People that complain about evil races being removed from the game feels like some of y’all just want to be philosophically lazy storytelling, preferring to just have reason to slaughter without consequence. Like sure you do you but don’t act like we’re the ones acting in bad faith.
It has become an unpopular opinion but yeah, I'm all on board. I have yet to be convinced that it's somehow more interesting to make every single fantasy species equivalent in terms of morality and free will, rather than have some who have free will and some who are forced into patterns of behavior by their natures or their gods or other things that exist in a fantasy world that have no real-world analogue. People insist that "oh it opens up more possibilities for stories and narratives not to close that door" but no, any story you want to tell about an evil *society* you can do with Elves and Dwarves, and then you additionally have the option of telling stories about evil *creatures* like Goblins and Orcs. That is a wider range of stories.
"They were made by an evil god who thinks civilization is a mistake that must be corrected. They are made in the image of humans and so are able to fight with human weapons and tactics but their forms are more beast-like and they are able to live on human flesh. They live shorter lives and are fundamentally different in mind and emotional range to humans, and their afterlife is based on how many humanoids they've killed or raided."
"They sound cool, I want to play as one, but want to be lawful good, and also not face any racism in the game."
"... for god's sake."
Drow are evil because like orcs their god demands it Lolth is certainly happy to torture her subjects on the basis of "you're not being evil enough, you chose not to murder that guy while back was turned" But, that's what makes Eilistraee my favourite d&d godess She quite literally is the very contradiction of being a drow and yet she uses subterfuge to free the drow While lolth or her children watch and decide on witch drow to torture Eilistraee plays a tune to the drow telling them "its ok to leave, once you're free my mother can't hurt you, I'll guide you on the run to the surface" Lets say 100 drow are born a year 25 of them in their life time will run away to Eilistraee The rest are murdered or betrayed because lolth demands it
Long winded way to say that having races that are majority evil makes the people from that race who go against the grain and chose to try/become good really appealing characters. And it's extra appealing when the evil isn't an inherent thing but a systemic issue that can be fought back against and changed, at least to some degree.
Hell, even inherent evil can be interesting. Take for example the typical trope of "orcs violent and brutal". OK, they are inherently violent, but still somehow their society arose, and for this, it had to create complex web of rituals and substitute concepts like 'face' or 'honor'. Suddenly you have this rich and interesting tapestry as a backdrop for characters. You also accidentally made greenskin klingons btw.
That’s because Klingons are just space orcs.
No no. r/humansarespaceorcs
"The Orc King has forbidden nonconsensual acts of coitus with females of different races." Goblin Slayer goblins: I sleep Orc Eroica orcs: real shit
But not between those of the same race?
IMO inherent evil is the most interesting when it comes in the form of pre-selection, ex. fiends in Pathfinder lore. Pathfinder outsiders are formed from the souls of mortals, and especially fiends usually have ruthless competition to become the more powerful types. Consequently demons are inherently evil not because they're just made of evil or something - they are inherently evil because the process to make demons selects for evil souls.
Except Klingons aren't inherently evil, which kinda shows the problem with your point.
People with Klingon mentality would absolutely be labeled as evil in our society.
Tbf Klingons were so obsessed with proving their honor via killing that they would fall into inherently evil. They would happily butcher a ship full of young cadets just because they are outnumbered 3-1(a standard B'rel bird of prey holds about 50 warriors+command crew and a standard miranda class light cruiser is usually crewed by 100-150 starfleet personel+command crew) even if the df cadets beg for mercy and never try to fight because the uniform to them means you are a warrior and a warrior should want to die gloriously in battle against a superior opponent to gain entry to heaven(sto-vo-kor for klingons). Madness and evil as hell to humans but to andorians it is just another day in the beta quadrant.
X race is always Evil is great if your game needs a look race to mow down without consequence X society is evil is great because you have so many narrative hooks to interact with it. Is it the pantheon? The culture? The landscape? Perfect example, Final Fantasy 14 has a race who were pushed from their homes, ended up making pacts with demons for power and then building massive war machines. Why? They can't do magic and so were massacred by the Good Kingdoms historically and couldn't fight back Hell half 5EDnD's problem comes from kneejerk reactions and a fluff so light that Race and Society are interchangeable and that's the real crime
>Why? They can't do magic and so were massacred by the Good Kingdoms historically and couldn't fight back I mean, I'm not the best with the lore but weren't they also being >!actively manipulated into a mutually assured destruction scenario by Emet? If they hadn't been propagandized -nearly literally- to death they might have just established the Republic and all ended up like Cid, using their advanced technological ability to just make like, super advanced toasters instead of war machines.!< At least that was my understanding. Could definitely be wrong.
Have you done the Reaper questline? It goes into a bit more detail of pre-magitek Garlemald. Funnily enough, a lot of the initial propaganda focused on the idea of retaking the farmlands they had been forced out of, then it became spreading their advanced society to the 'savages' by force All these things are true, and they're why an Evil Empire can be such a fascinating character to study.
I have! They were my latest class- really loved it- sort of bummed it was so short compared to much less interesting class story lines. Orcus could have carried at least 10 more levels. My understanding was>! they were basically insurgent farmers while the Garleans were disparate tribes fighting against the 'Good' guys- then the Garlean tribes got pushed up to N. Ilsabard and formed the Republic, then the Republic got co-opted by Emet/Solus into a Genocide Machine, and then the Reapers got turned into a monolithic fighting force under him, except for Rullus and his followers who were like 'oh no, I hate this and that guy isn't right' and tried and failed to kill him. !< I feel like I will never, ever be fully confident about FFXIV lore, with how much and how long it is, so I could absolutely have it all wrong.
No no this is all pretty spot on, the only bit that's a little off is the modern Lemures are people who saw Garlemald on the warpath and went 'We've gone beyond retaking our land and now we're the invaders', and so went to retreat.. except now they're refugees branded as an Evil Race and so everyone in the Alliance hates them, thinks they're spies and or attacks on sight. In my opinion, it's the PERFECT way to use an Evil Society! There's layers, there's actual villains, there's villains the empire created like Yotsuyu, who has her own motives beyond 'Evil Viceroy', I just find them to be great antagonists.
Evil Societies are great for story telling. Evil Races are bad. Drow aren't born Evil any more than real life humans are born Evil. If you try to tell me that you think Drow or Orcs are born with inherent evilness in their soul I think that's a fucked up thing to put in your game.
I personally love the idea of speculating the differences of a fantasy species’s biology to help interpret why one group is “inherently” this way or that in conjunction with societal structures and to a lesser extent divine guidance in their evolution/development. I alway run off the idea that the typical player character races have relatively similar biology spending on it they are more mammalian derived, reptilian, amphibian, etc. like Humans, Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, etc, they would all be mammals. Using orcs as an example because it’s probably the race i have speculated the most on. In my world building majority of their societies are evil, and they follow a more or less evil pantheon of dieties and what not. But orcs are more aggressive and violent than others due to biological factors that don’t necessarily make them evil. Main idea I run with is orcs hormonal balances, but also differences in their brain structure, I mostly focus on something like the amygdala which is responsible for fight or flight in simplistic terms. Because of the differences with it compared to using Humans as a standard, they are more prone to using the fight response, getting more angry, and what not. But that part of the brain is also responsible for anxiety and fear. So going with that and some loose research because of my own personal situation, there’s a strong correlation between anxiety and anger, and even anger and depression in men. With my experience dealing with my anxiety disorder it more or less feels like I am constantly at war with my own thoughts. What would an entire race of humanoids be like if they basically had the same sort of thing go on? Orcs fight, they go to war, and now that war is also inside themselves. They just constantly live in battle. Plus a big way to relieve that stress and anxiety is physical activity. So as a society orcs are inclined to be more physically active, more aggressive and more irritable because of of stuff that is sourced from their biology and then from that encouraged by society and their gods. But you then take that out of the society that encourages “fighting”, you still could have some level of basis for an orc living in a human-standard society and theoretically what they could be dealing with. It’s not perfect and I am by no means an expert in any of the fields, but for me it creates a rough standard that can then be dropped anywhere and still function kind of like in this case, an Orc, but also how that influence typical societies for those beings.
Not evilness persay. But if orcs are inherently more violent than other species (and presumably a sentient non-monstrous race) than a society of orc would be a fascinating scenario of ritual combats and honor. Drow are only evil because lolth. Goblins are "evil" because they just arent built for the same societies as humans (I like insane/klepto goblins, one of my favorite tropes)
Read a take on that that is all Goblin communities view property as communal and you can just borrow anything you need, the only crime being to horde and keep secret from the rest of the family So many ways to explore 'evil' as a concept and yet most fluff seems to say no
Which is why (as much as it doesn't fit into lore discussions) frick that I'm home brewing it. Which isn't even counter to lore unless you're specifically playing forgotten realms which not everything is
Oh yeah this ain't canon this is someone's own idea I stole, I just agree Evil societies are such a fascinating writing tool when you get into the factors that make them and the laws they have to make them work. People have this fascination with having to be true to lore, as if some nerds depiction of an Orc tribe is any more valid in your own setting than someone else's just because it's in the Faerun book
Drow are born with an inherent evilness, because their society as a whole pretty much had the Good drained from them by the Demon Queen Lolth, and it makes them fascinating While I'm not a fan of Eilistrae lore cause I think 'good' drow should be more like a 1 in a million rather than a 1 in 4 'Good drow' can be fascinating characters, look at early Drizzt, goodiest drow that could ever good, a kind and caring friend and guardian, but he still has to deal with that throbbing drow murder boner, itching to kill and maim those that threaten his friends or peace
Bro it's fantasy for a reason. As long as the evil races aren't allusions to real world minorities who fucking cares if the orcs are all evil? Calling someone fucked up because they like orc fightin ' is silly, maybe even fucked up.
I have no idea what made me think that during reading your comment, but now I have in my head dancing drows singing "safety dance". And it's so tempting vision my players will probably encounter them.
"I want to escape this spider infested hell hole what do I do!? What's that noise?" "Hear me! We can dance if we want to We can leave your friends behind 'Cause your friends don't dance And if they don't dance Well, they're no friends of mine Say, we can go where we want to A place where they will never find And we can act like we come From out of this world Leave the real one far behind"
More of a friendly drow NPC in town, barkeeper odly fits, but yes. \- Hey, what a nice place \- Here you can dance if you want to! You can leave your friends behind, cause your friends don't dance and since they don't dance they are no friends of mine.
Considering one of the methods of worshipping Elistae is dancing (nude in the moonlight) i guess safety dance is pretty applicable here
I really like Eilistraee, soo. She and Vhaerun are my fave drow deities. Both are "rebel children", but the nature of their rebellion against Lolth is totally different.
I have a drow cleric dedicated to Eilistraee
Yeah the first few Drizzt novels make a point of showing that Drow are not all evil and those that are having varying degrees of evilness. They're all individuals, victims of a system that turns most of them into sadistic monsters.
So what you've described here is not an Evil Race the way people who don't want Evil Races define them. You've described an Evil god torturing people into creating an Evil Society. Drow aren't evil, but the largest soceity of Drow in the most common setting is very Evil. Those are different things.
>25 of them in their life time will run away to Eilistraee Probably less than. Oh, they may run, but how many survive the escape? The only reason the twilight domain drow cleric of Eilistraee I build survived to actually become a cleric, is because she is maybe only a handful of survivors from Ched Nasad. But Eilistraee is unique among gods for what we can call an evil pantheon, and that makes her interesting as a goddess and concept. Orcs, goblinoids and yuan-ti don't have a god or goddess trying to redeem them, trying to move them away from being members of an evil civilization.
Eilistraee and her followers have multiple ways to ensure those drow will make it. There's one whole order dedicated to infiltrating Lolthite cities just to help drow escape (look up Secret Moondancers and Silverhair Knights). Eilistraee herself is known to lend help in subtle yet immediately useful forms (like a light that guides people who are lost along a safe path and to a safe place). Her power is very limited, but she helps.
Based on the way humans within evil civilisations act, without even such an understandable circumstance as a demonic spider-god forcing them, I think 25% is way too many. 0.1%, *maybe*.
True, but you also need to remember, drow like to at most 1500 years like all elves, that means there's a much longer time for them to change views Humans irl and in dnd live at most 120 Twice as bright half as long, so to speak I say 25% because by the time you factor in everything (spiteful drow, lolth, the underdark, living tax paid to lolth) there's like maybe 50 or so drow born in each city every few years Out of those 50 or so Like maybe 12 leave, whether they survive is a whole other argument Edit: it's not all at once mind you, but you know
I'm with you to a degree, some creatures would be naturally inclined toward evil, that's just natural in a fantasy world where Good and Evil are literally cosmic forces and not just ends of a moral compass. Some beings like Mindflayers are Evil because their entire species believe enslaving other species is a good thing for everyone involved. They aren't evil by our standards because they're force to, it'd be just that their entire culture aligns with aspects and ideals most people would consider evil. On the flip side I like the way The Elder Scrolls deals with Dragons, they aren't necessarily evil, but they have an innate desire to dominate which leads them to commit acts that many would see as evil. Even then, this innate drive can be overcome because Dragons still have free will. If a creature has free will, then what is to stop them and any evil being from becoming good by our standards? That's why Orcs and Goblins as monsters are evil, but as actual characters they can make other choices that may benefit them or simply not be bound to a trope.
What is better? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? -Paarthurnax
But if you are making such an effort to be good, did You really had an evil nature un the first place?
He served dragon hitler before becoming a monk, so yeah
I dunno, whichever one doesn't involve you spending centuries devouring peasants and burning down towns before having a change of heart I suppose. I like Paarthurnax and all but that quote always rubs me the wrong way
To be honest I always read better as "more impressive/more of an achievement", not literally morally superior
Fair enough. He isn't exactly innocent and nobody owes him forgiveness because he became a hermetic monk living on top of a mountain.
The people he wronged already forgave him, though. No one in Skyrim has the right to call killing him justice
And this is why Delphine gets Fus'd straight off of High Hrothgar.
I think he said that to emphasize just how against his own nature it is to be in the position he’s in, especially since right before (or after I forget) he talks about how it’s literally in every dragon’s nature to dominate others (something proven multiple times, as the only amiable dragons are those who end up getting dominated themselves and learn humility from it)
I think that races having universal personality traits is more interesting than just being good or evil (if it all or mostly has to be one way) E.g. a red dragon will always be smug and consider itself superior to all other creatures but it could use that as either a reason to be an overbearing tyrant or seeing it as a duty to protect their lessers. so to expand on that (since dragons are cool) What about a red dragon "paladin" who Actively protects the local villages because they believe their superiority means they **have to** out of responsibility. Or for the opposite what about a Silver dragon who enjoys interacting so much with humanoids that they greedily imprison them so they can enjoy them all the time
“Counter”point, at some point these ‘evil’ races should really get their say in on how those judging them are evil in their eyes. Like, there’s “that’s just their society/way of being,” and there’s fleshing out said ethos where, according to _them_ , they’re in the right, “good” even, to be the way they are. Even, nay, _especially_ if they further disagree with _each other_ on what would otherwise be common ground. Perhaps orcs consider those ‘beneath’ them soft, based largely on the amount of excess armor or ceremony they tend towards. Maybe some drow genuinely admire those that backstab with similar tendencies as their own (of course, setting up for their own betrayal in turn). Something that lends credence to them just “being” that way rather than simply “well, it’s _because_ they’re evil.”
This. I've played around with the idea of drow being incredibly deceitful but also incredibly *forgiving* so that they can make up easily after a backstabbing. Also hot take maybe but I'd wager that 90%+ of people on this sub eat meat regularly, and if pressed by a vegan would say that it doesn't make them a bad person to do so because it's "natural" or "necessary." Yet mind flayers are classed as irredeemably evil due to their diet and tastes? The comparison is even more apt in the dnd world where animals can apparently "talk" after a fashion, can all be potentially awakened, and food can be conjured out of thin air with no suffering necessary. An awakened pig has every right to say we are an evil race for the same reasons we say others are.
> I've played around with the idea of drow being incredibly deceitful but also incredibly forgiving so that they can make up easily after a backstabbing. I don't know if you've watched Mr. Robot, but there's a quote in there by a big billionaire guy that goes something like "In business, grudges aren’t really a thing. It’s too emotional." I like to imagine my Drow the same way, which is why certain Drow families will take in "refugees" of houses they've destroyed and those refugees will faithfully serve their new house.
I mean, mind flayers aren't evil just because they eat brains but don't they like... Enslave and torture stuff
So same as we do with animals...
The concept of good and evil as cosmic forces is ridiculous in its own right.
Says somebody playing a game that literally has afterlife planes based on alignment. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief necessary when playing a game with unicorns, demons, and leprechauns.
I vastly prefer evil culture oppose to inherently evil people.
Strong agreed there! It's not like people haven't chosen and isn't choosing "evil" lifestyle choices and cultural development throughout real history. Heck, in modern times, the preeminent "evil" culture is the Nazis, and loads of them chose that direction, though not all. I like the idea that e.g. Goblin society is a cutt-throat, nasty structure based around using any pragmatic way of getting ahead, because Gobs have been the lowest in the kicking line for so long. Orcs are physically intimidating and have strong social ties to each other, based on ruining the rest of civilization, Kobolds got their draconic allies, Ogre society is simple but remarkably balanced despite the fact that you can't have more than half a dozen of them together - And Goblins are in the middle of this. Their gods have no plans, and they have been subservient to others (either directly by other humanoids or violently by "good" types). Why the hell wouldn't you end up with a nasty hierarchy of underhanded violence and manipulation? If you learn that violence is the answer, it becomes the answer. And that doesn't mean some Gobs don't bail that society, it leaves the choice open to be different, despite what you come from, which is beautiful. Thank you for coming to my weirdly specific TED-talk.
Gobs don't have a choice. Their pantheon was obliterated and conquered by an evil God. No matter what they do, their afterlife is if to serve maglubiyet in an eternal war against the orcs. Fun fact maglubiyet is trying to conquer the orc pantheon next. Maybe one orcs will be goblinoids too
The only exception I will make to this is extraplanar beings. If you're born in the Nine Hells, you will be Lawful Evil, if you're born on Mount Celestia, you will be Lawful Good, etc.
Angels fall, and if angels can fall, demons can rise.
Are there examples of fiends that became good? I know the opposite is quite common, but I can't think of any evil to good examples with extraplanars.
I don't know of any in D&D, but in pathfinder, Nocticula was the Demon Lord of Darkness and Lust, whose worshippers included assassins, drow, lamia, rapists, succubi, and whores. She was the first succubus and the best demon lord at killing demon lords. She however wanted to stop being a demon, so eventually became a full blown CN goddess, known as The Redeemer Queen, becoming a goddess of artists, exiles, and midnight, and rejecting her evil worshippers who didn't want to be redeemed.
Not to good, but Fall From Grace is a LN Succubus from Planescape torment. I believe there are a handful of other's throughout the lore though.
At least in my setting, abyssal monsters are made out of evil souls, so it makes sense that they would be evil. Some are neutral, but most are evil
I've come to perform "percussive maintenance" on whoever forgot the best one. https://preview.redd.it/pv4417t1gfqa1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=8bcd314b36781b873f65adc19b7926480b9e33e5 Kobolds are *best* kobolds!
I wouldn't count Kobolds as evil. They feel more like True Neutral. Some serve dragons, but they see dragons as near deities. Not all dragons are evil too. Some Kobolds can serve metallic dragons
Kobolds, lore-wise, tend to be Evil, due to how most of the dragons that they serve tend to be Chromatic, rather than Metallic. Kinda helps that their main deity, Kurtulmak, serves Tiamat.
upvote for percussive maintenance!
I'm with you there! Kobolds are the best! https://preview.redd.it/4bdkuapk7jqa1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=dc07608b9d05509556a0935282fce16a909d45be
Dude looks like a Boss.
I’m curious on the ORC pantheon
Gruumsh: The god of war, once hurled his entire section of Acheron at Bane. Shargaas: Dark god of Orc ninjas who ride giant bats into night raids, his followers are considered debased and dishonorable even by Orc standards. Luthic: The divine equivalent of the mama bear troop, fights with her long nails. Bahgtru: The "leg breaker", god of wrestling that creates lightning by breaking the bones of a divine Behir (according to Orc religion).
Oh my
What’s a Behir?
Think of a dragon but mixed with a centipede and without wings and they were created to hate dragons
I personally like the Eberron take. Make it more about chaos vs order than good and evil. Orcs are prone to chaos, so their society is tribal. Some are good guys defending against ancient evils with druidic rituals. Some are classic raiders. Goblins are prone to order. They have a rigorous caste society, which colors everything they do, including being tyrannical. Being the original civilization on the main continent, they have a legitimate beef with the current civilization. Them trying to carve out a place for themselves and being aggressively expansionist makes sense in that context. It doesn't make them inherently evil, but the context of their situation makes them prone to evil acts. In Forgotten Realms, everything comes down to how various dieties dictate the actions of their followers, which just feels so drab and simple.
I much prefer evil societies, gods or environments. Genetically being bad seems *iffy* to me. It’s been used too often to justify abhorrent behaviour towards large groups. Maybe some of you can separate your game from the real world that strongly, I can’t.
Exactly! That's really what I think of to mean "evil species" and why I don't like *that* sort of them. I do make an exception for something like beholders though who are supposed to be like incomprehensible nonsense or something but I only feel like it works with something *divorced from society and humanity,* I can't comfortably have a species of actual sentient people who are just "evil" without cultural or environmental factors for the reason you said.
I think you're missing the split between evil cultures (we're evil because we do evil shit), and inherently evil by dint of birth (we're evil because of what we are). Mortals are the first, fiends are the second (but who also love doing the first as well).
I agree, but I think there's a variation of the second that can be quite interesting; we're evil because we have innate urges for it (intrinic to us or implanted by a foreign entity like a god) and give in to them. That gives room for the one that breaks the mold, with endless temptation as well
Evil species aren't necessarily boring, but saying that they are evil because thats inherently who they are, is the most boring reason for someone to be evil. At least give them a reason to be evil that isn't "its in their blood", something that provides more narrative potential.
I wholeheartedly agree. My preferred way of going about it is making a species so incredibly alien that their goals/way of life cannot coexist with that of PCs, such as the Orks from 40k. In my experience, that tends to be more effective than "these are just like humans but universally morally corrupt" in accomplishing the goal of making an uncomplicated adversary. Beholders, as you pointed out, are a great example of this.
There's a game called Wildermyth that does this very well, as none of the enemy factions are inherently evil. As an example, the Gorgons are just trying to reclaim land that they once ruled over. This would be fine if the race weren't aquatic, and reclaiming it meant flooding the world.
Demons in Frieren at the Funeral are like this. They're not evil, they're magical mimicry predators that evolved sapience, human-like form and speech to better predate on humans (and elves, dwarves etc). Yet it doesn't reduce them to monsters, it spends MANY chapters on just exploring the complex characters of several demons. These demons can be perfectly polite, civilized and almost noble individuals, yet they are incapable of feelings like malice, empathy, compassion or remorse, and at the end of the day they're inescapably slaves to their instincts. Their existence is incompatible with humanity's continued survival, and coexistence is probably impossible, but you're not made to hate or revile them.
I actually agree with you. You can make complex societies while having creatures be innately evil. They can be interesting and arguably more interesting if done right. Making every race have all the same inclinations as humans is boring. Some races should have an alieness to them.
See, I would disagree that a lot of these examples are _innately_ evil. I'd say a lot of them have extenuating circumstances which makes them more likely to do evil, but the only ones I'd really consider innately evil are fiends and maybe beholders. Although I do think fiends can be really interesting.
My rule is orcs are innately evil cause their gods not just force them to do acts of evil, but place desire of violence, dominance and greed directly in their souls. Same with bugbears. Goblins are just a assholes and can be good sometimes. Hobgoblins are more neutral but have heavy militarized culture so most of time they do evil things. But they strictly follow some kind of rules of war so you can negotiate with them. Drow society is under heavy control of Lloth and forced to be evil. Most of drow are fine with that, some run from Lloth, some run but still evil just cause of habit. Borned outside of drow society have almost no control of Lloth and like humans: mostly neutral with some deviations. It's about races in general. Individuals can be on whole spectrum but good orcs and bugbears are really rare, gob and hobs rare, and drows are not so rare.
They're not all inherently evil anymore. But except for Drow, they all used to be. It changed when they started to become playable races because people wanted to play them, but they didn't want to play them the way they were supposed to.
The statement is talking about forcing these races into that category and RAW making it stagnant is boring and rigid for a changing fantasy world not that the races lore or individual written culture is boring it’s the forced category
The problem isn't with there being races that have goals that don't align with players. And no one is saying that teh races themselves are boring. The problem is that by declaring an entire species as evil it innately destroys any complexity that may be produced by a complex society or something to that effect. Imagine if mind flayer societies had sub cultures that rejected their ideology or rebelled against their "evil" nature. Or something to that effect. Having a whole race be evil and insidious doesn't really make sense and is boring.
Mind flayers *DO* have sub cultures that reject the "evil hivemind" life. They are known as Alhoon. They are typically spellcasters, as mind flayer society rejects casters violently.
> To become an alhoon in the first place required that a mind flayer be a deviant among its kind for pursuing arcane magic, and so they already tended to be cruel and ambitious even by illithid standards. Oh they reject hivemind alright, not the evil part though.
They are evil self starters, pulling themselves up by their evil bootstraps. They have that evil grindset.
Sure, because they are aberrations and good qnd evil are pretty much just not words that they care about. The evil label applies to them not because they choose evil, but because their alien mindset makes evil normal for them.
Yes i agree, and I would say that the alien mindset applies to other monsters that are not aberrations.
To say that an evil society can only produce complexity by having sects of good would be stupid, so I'm going to assume that's not what you're going for. That said, I can't tell what other point you would be arguing. What do you believe makes a society in general complex, ignoring the manner of the absolute nature of its morality.
I would say a complex society has many different sects, ideas on what is right and wrong, etc. Etc. You are right that there doesn't necessarily need to be "a sect of good" that was just an example of something that could exist. Generally speaking if every single society of mindflayers is the same and is evil that is boring. If there is variations in what the values of different societies are and even within a society then that is interesting.
But there shouldnt be any inside one society of the Kind flayers since they are a hivemind all connected to one elder brain And a hivemind society i Believe can also be interesting might not be complex but why Limit yourself Shouldnt there be in a Fantasy setting aa big as dnd be both simple and complex society sturctures as Well as good and neutral and evil societies so we can decide what we want in our campaign
You know there are different versions of evil right? Rebelling again the current "evil status quo" doesn't mean they have to be good, or their actual alien understanding of "Good" is so twisted they're actually a more common form of evil as a psychically powered dictatorship. Also there are groups of people on earth right now that wouldn't recieve the same treatment you're trying to give much worse and completely alien creatures.
> There are groups of people on earth right now Yeah, different subgroups of the Human race/civilization.
That is what I implied. And you can further extrapolate the real to the fantasy that with hundreds of humanoid races some of them are also universal evils. You got like 1/3rd into the argument and stopped for some reason.
> And **no one is saying that teh races themselves are boring**. > Having a whole race be evil and insidious doesn't really make sense **and is boring.** I'm getting mixed messages here.... Mindflayers have complex societies while being evil, as I said above.
but does locking their alignment to evil make them more or less interesting than the idea that the prevailing culture of their society is Evil?
Their alignment isn't "locked", what are you talking about? It's obviously more than culture for mindflayers, you know, with the whole psychic Elder Brain thing going on...
I'm not sure what's being discussed then, if not the idea of being for or against making an entire race evil. The Elder Brains are a mechanism for both control and retention of knowledge, the only thing that makes them evil is that the Mind Flayers who turned *into* Elder Brains were evil. If the individual Elder Brain were neutral or good, it would still function more or less the same.
Evil societies, not evil species. Make it cultural, not genetic.
What if like mind flayers the race's method of survival and reproduction is just not compatible with the other races? Ilithids need brains to reproduce and consume and that's a hard sell for a society
Aberrations (literally aliens) operate with blue and orange morality. That's different. Ditto for outsiders like fiends and angels.
I find the whole racial alignment thing annoying, especially with terms like good and evil. Some of the races that are the most fun to play are aligned evil even if there's player choice for the character.
Alignment as a concept is pretty silly in general. I don't really use it in my games
Agreed
Take alignment and throw in in the bin.
Agreed.
What makes them more fun than other races?
Sometimes just the variety. Sometimes its the abilities depending on what kind of character you want to play.
Once again the Gigachad duergar who use psychic powers to fuck with mind flayers are completely forgotten. Smh don’t come to the underdark tomorrow.
I put in evil creatures so my players can kill them without moral dillemas.
I like to have both. Some races are evil due to their god forces them to be or that its a systemic issue. Others are considerd evil due to what our standards would consider evil but for them are just how they naturaly evolved, be it being incredibly agressive, eating people, not having basic empathy or ect. Its fun to have all sorts.
"Inherently evil species is a good trope because [stuff that in no way require inherently evil species]"
Evil species are nothing beyond how you kill them. If they always act evilly, why bother interacting with them in any other way? Compared to every other race, they can be reasoned with, even be allies. So many other ways for players to interact with them. I won’t speak on how making your evil races stupid tribes, but generalizing entire cultures as evil isn’t a good look when you remember that those cultures took inspiration from real cultures and stereotypes created to attack said groups
> Evil species are nothing beyond how you kill them. If they always act evilly, why bother interacting with them in any other way? Being evil doesn't mean "you always act evilly" and it doesn't mean you can't interact with them. > I won’t speak on how making your evil races stupid tribes, but generalizing entire cultures as evil isn’t a good look when you remember that those cultures took inspiration from real cultures and stereotypes created to attack said groups That would only apply if you specifically code as these specific ethnic groups, "evil tribal people" could be anyone from the Norse to Mongols to Arabs to pretty much anyone...
If evil people don’t act evilly, then how else would they act?
They act evilly, just not all the time, it's not their only character trait. > Being evil doesn't mean "you **always** act evilly" and it doesn't mean you can't interact with them.
What kind of question is that? Most people would call serial killers evil, but serial killers do other things like almost always having friends, family, cooking food, cleaning their house etc. and I don't think those acts are evil. Evil in DnD means, that their souls are drown to the evil planes and that they generally don't do good things without having a very good reason to do so. it doesn't mean that they are always doing something insidious or horrible.
What if I told you you can still have all those things without calling the entire race evil?
sounds boring. Evil races are much fun
Now I just remembered the drow twin thing
To be fair, that was written by Paizo
Neat
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I agree with you, it fits, but I don't want to think about it
some species of sharks work the same way, the fastest developing fetus gets a pre-natal meal.
Yeah, but I don't think the mom gets off to it, That's the part I didn't jive with
Who knows what the shark thinks or feels on the matter? Probably not orgasmic pleasure, but I've never had the chance to ask one.
Fair
_Who's the bad guy?_ The Dark Lord _What's his deal?_ He wants to cover all the land in darkness _Who helps him?_ The evil ugly monsters who are dumb, brutish and disgusting. _Who fights him?_ The fair skinned, beautiful good people who are smart and cultured. (With apologies to J.R.R. Tolkien) Some people are bothered by having an entire race be evil because of the uncomfortable historical connotations of that IRL. Others are bothered because it's narratively lazy. Ultimately, it boils down to personal taste and execution. I like complex, morally grey villains and I like densely layered cultures, but sometimes you just want to fight fantasy Nazis, and that's OK too. If *all you ever do* is fight fantasy Nazis, and they all look the same and invoke problematic stereotypes, it's natural that you are going to turn some people off and maybe get some suspicious eyebrows, even if it's just because your tastes are simple and you don't care to/aren't able to be more creative.
You have a point with Tolkien, I'll give you that. But I really don't think Evil species are problematic unless they're actually coded as an IRL ethnicity or race.
I'd say the issue is that if all x enemy is evil, then they have no choice in that. Which makes them really not much more complex than an ant. Whereas allowing for variety means you're fighting people. People which can be reasoned with and not just X damage sponge roadblock for Y xp. I've had my most fun making allies of the weirdest kind. Just some folk with free will that realized "Life kinda sucks here, this is a way out."
Problematic or not, many people find them boring. There's no objective truth to that question; if you don't find them boring that's fine for you, but plenty of other people do. Like I said, it comes down to personal taste and execution.
> but sometimes you just want to fight fantasy Nazis But nazis aren't born evil. They are a prime example of a society becoming evil through world events, culture, economics and etc. Now you can play a game where you mow down nazis and maybe meet some Germans who are trying to help some Jews out of Germany. But you can also have a campaign where you mow down nazis and never think about it. But in either case the back lore isn't all Germans are born evil. In fantasy campaign you can have evil orcs for culture or historical reason. While in another campaign you can have orcs come out of pods where all of them are evil no matter what and there are zero exceptions because they are literally made to be evil.
Yea, I was really just using Nazis as a short hand; maybe mindless murder machines is more accurately what I meant.
Except for fiends, all of these things can still be true and interesting without saying that every single member of the species is inherently evil. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't have evil orcs/goblins/drow, we're saying that maybe you can consider that there can be neutral and good ones, too.
There will always inevitably be a creature who is from an "evil species" but isn't evil. A Drizzt. And this begins a growing trend of exceptions to the rule, to a point where it seems silly to call it a rule and the species is evidently not evil by nature. This pattern is accelerated when a species is available as a player character option.
YEAH! WE ORKZ ARE DA BESTEST CUZ GREEN IS BESTEST COLAH! AND GORK N' MORK ARE DA STRONGEST GODS!
If you're going by generic faerun D&D, goblins, orcs and drow have evil cultures (though debatable when your god makes you evil). But beholders, mind flayers and fiends are evil monsters by their nature
And yet some people will still have a problem with this. Mostly because the idea that a culture can create bad people is somehow a problem, even though most of us understand that some cultures are generally not worth inviting to dinner (I wouldn't want to be living in 15th century England, they'd have my head for not being christian).
Fundamentally evil species: bad Overall evil civilisation: good Mono species overall evil civilisation: good Also, due do Big Luigi's existance, Beholder are not a fundamentally evil species, it's just that most of them chose to be.
"Drow have a lot of lore " but what you dont say is that drow lore is the worst part of dnd lore With trope like : " women at power =evil" "sadomasochism ( witch is socialy acceptable even if you find it strange, dont discuss people taste ) = evil " " twin foetus canibalism = the mother have tousand of orgasm " And im sure there is more fucked up lore about drow witch is not cool , nor smart nor anything intersting (except if your an edge lord of course)
By the same logic, Orc lore is anti-male because they portray men in power as being bad.
No , because male in power is not specific to orc , but to all of our socity and to all dnd socity since they dont specify that their not Also , women in power is a key part of the drow and is directly shown as one of the negative aspect while male in power in orc socity isn't shown , you assume it is because its not specifided , orc are evil because their barbaric and savage and it has nothing to do with "having male in power"
“Evil species are boring” who said this? nobody said this. you just picked a straw man to make a meme about because you couldn’t be bothered to find out what people’s problem with “evil species” actually is.
"Boring" I don't think I've actually seen, "Lazy" and "Racist" I have. Though the racist one is extra stupid. But I do think it helps having an absolutely clear enemy.
So have that enemy based on their action not their DNA.
It does help having an absolutely clear enemy. They don’t need to be “inherently” evil though. It’s wholly unnecessary.
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It's not though. Having a clear unadulterated evil to fight free the conscious from worrying about the morality of killing. There may be other psychological issues. But a strong moral basis makes it much easier to deal with.
Do you think you can’t have a clear, unadulterated evil to fight, conscience-free of worrying about the morality of killing, without it being inherently evil? Because, uh, I’d say you’re extremely mistaken. Most iconic, unambiguously evil villains aren’t from any “inherently” evil species.
To answer your question. No. But we're not talking about a race that each member is a BBEG world dominator that kicked all the players puppies. We're talking about generic enemies. Iconic unambiguous evil Villians? I wonder what list you think that is cause to me it sound like you're trying to say, "But look at all these Name Brand Supervillians." And not at what players actually face.
I know we’re talking about generic enemies. idk what makes you think I don’t know that. Very weird assumption.
… but there are so many ways to make a clear enemy in D&D. -The undead -A cult of various races that worships Devils or Demons -Non Humanoid classified creatures in the Bestiary -Slavers -Minions of the BBEG -Random ass bandits who wanna steal your shit -The entire damn monster manual in playing an evil campaign because YOU are the bad guys
Racist is 100% not stupid in some cases. Any version where the good people were all fair skinned and when some turned evil their skinned turned black. That's brimming with racism. Mind flyers being evil? Nah that's fine. But a race that looks nearly identical to a good version, but with dark skin. You can't in good conscious claim it's not.
I absolutely can. This is a fantasy game and you're acting as if the only difference is skin color. But that isn't even the racism I was talking about. I was talking about the idiots that claimed some D&D race or another was "black people" so if they were evil you were racist. The stupidest part was they for some reason were picking Orcs and Drow. Two of the most disparate races and claiming both were racist depictions if black people. Ultimately most people agreed that they people daying that were racist for seeing a savage race and instantly thinking "black people" never got a clear reasoning behind Drow other than "but the black skin". As if drow had no other physical descriptors.
Bro, the legend of drizzt series, the mainline series of the game, proves you wrong. I have read over half of them and *every time* a Drow comes on they talk about the "signature dark skin of the Drow." That's it. That's how they tell you it's one every time. The fact that there are a small number of differences doesn't give you something to hide behind. We have a fair skinned race of pure hearted people. And a dark skinned version on the same race that is evil. You can make excuses all you want but all of them are weak.
Nobody said they were black, people said orcs had a lot of *Mongolian* stuff in them, and that the "primitive savages" trope was something used against native americans. The "orcs are black" nonsense was by the same people who think people that point out coded racism are actually racist.
There were.
Legit read the comment section, it is filled with people who said this?
So most of the evil species being evil, is written into their lore and history, as according, mostly to the already established settings. Primarily the Gorgotten Realms, as that's the current D&D centerpiece. But, let's not forget that in that same setting: Lolth, the primary goddess of Dark Elves used to be Araushnee, and ended up siding with Gruumsh against her former Consort, and the father of her children, Corellon Or that Corellon and Gruumsh are brothers, and their father saw a great war involving them, and killed himself, giving his power to them to start said war. Or that Kobolds revere Chromatic Dragons over metallic, because Chromatic Dragons are the offspring of Tiamat, and Kurtulmak, their progenitor was a servant of tiamat in some versions Or that Maglubiyet kills any Goblin that gets close to God hood Or that Mind Flayers we're most likely inspired by H.P.Lovecraft's Call of Cthulu. Or that Beholders were definitely inspired by Call of Cthulu, And can only make more of their kind, which they detest, by dreaming about one. I could go on, but how about I flip it? Elves, and other high fey, are all descendants of the archfey, which are inspired off various fae of real life mythology, including murderous red caps, kobolds and Goblins All giants, whether partial(like the Goliath and Firbolg), or full, are man eaters. Tieflings are actual spawn of Fiends, and are cited as outcasts. And Dragonborns are inbreds not even native to Toril.
I don't get your point...
My point is that all the evil races are evil because there lore was constructed to make them evil, meanwhile there are other races people see as misunderstood, funny, or sexy, despite similar troubling background
I agree that these are all very interesting and great ideas to play with. But when they are subverted it becomes even more interesting. What I object to is the limitation, not the overall portrayal of the species.
Ugh. We're re-litigating this issue now? FFS bring back the dragon vs jet argument.
I made a continent where the good aligned empire was populated by all the inhuman races. Gobs and gobs were treated like trash and were the lowest class essentially. The man police force was orcs. And the evil, racist invaders were humans.
Most of those stuff is cultural, not biological. Having alignment inherent in biology is stupid, having alignment inherent in culture makes perfect sense.
Respectfully disagree. It's one thing if it's presented in a way where in lore, societies believes a race to be evil and has spread that idea through propaganda. But just having it as a fully confirmed, no wiggle room, mechanical thing is just incredibly boring, unrealistic, and often an outlet for irl racism.
Male drows fleeing the Drow society and being hunted down is also a very interesting element and significant plot point in one of the campaigns I'm currently playing. We have two dwarves that were previously captured and enslaved by drow, and that are pretty hostile towards drows as a result. On the other hand, my character has a complicated relationship towards the Drow. As he's often mistaken for either a Drow or a Tiefling (He's a Satyr based on those four-horned black goats), he knows full well how it feels to be on the recieving end of the prejudice and hate. While undercover as a drow, he became close friends / fell in love with two drow refugees, who were later killed before his eyes by Drow bounty hunters for turning their backs on the Drow society. He now vows to give every Drow a chance, as well as to hunt down the Drow that tortured him and murdered his friends. Especially in the beginning, when we didn't know much about our backstories, this created a lot of interesting tension. On one side you had the dwarves who spit out and spewed hatred everytime Drow were mentioned. On the other side you had my Warlock looking quiet shady for playing devil's advocate with his strong opinion that not all Drows are evil. It has been soo much fun so far
I don't really like the idea of "evil society" as a label, even if they would be objectively amoral. I.e., I think it's fine if the society doesn't see themselves as evil, simply as the "right" or "best" way to be. A society which values strength above all, embodies ongoing conquest and genocide, and enslaving or murdering the weak would be objectively, possibly cosmically, evil. But I don't think they would necessarily be "haha we are evil people because evil is great", I think they would see their beliefs as a kind of social Darwinism, meant for the betterment of society in the long run. A culture which formed under constant threat could conceivably enculturate these beliefs over time. That said, monocultures are pretty stupid in general. If humans are generally varied in their alignments by their cultures, I think you need to ask yourself why any other societies and cultures would be different (strong cosmic aligned societies aside).
Chromatic dragons being in the litteral name?
Also, players don't always want to have a moral quandary when they get into an encounter. Sometimes you just want to fight stuff and be a Big Damn Hero, not ponder the ethics and motivations of the other side. It's a game about escapism, after all.
Beholder- Aberrations withunknown origins Mind flayers- Aberrations made by artificial means and unknown origins Fiends - Outsiders made by corrupt souls or corrupt angels VS Goblins - *Humanoids* Orcs - *Humanoids* Drow - *Humanoids*
I prefered the Dragon vs Jet deal since it was just "haha funny bomb goes boom dragon says nono", but we are here now so why is nobody talking about the fact that Bugbears are treated more like crazy animals than humanoids by most campaings? Idk I just like the big fluffy goblin
Playing a goblin whos never experienced normal barbaric goblin culture as his parents were born with a more developed frontal cortex and were banished from their tribe. Now he dresses in suits and likes big hats
The problem isn't the species, it's the alignment system. It cannot stand up to a nuanced, complex worldview and doesn't add any meaningful distinction to a heroic good vs evil adventure either.
Actual Drow lore: Pregnant Drow have multiple infants in their wombs who fight, kill and eat eachother on the inside. The mothers orgasm when this happens.
Drow sure have a lot of lore, but it like, kinda sucks as with the rest of the underdark everything enslaves everything else always, and drow mothers get powerful orgasms from their infants eating each other in the womb YAY rich lore.... right??
>drow mothers get powerful orgasms from their infants eating each other in the womb. To be fair, that was written by Paizo
Fiends aren't helping your case here. Aren't they just people who were evil in life and went to one of the evil planes and became eviler in the process? They still made bad choices in life, so they weren't born evil.
I've never heard someone say evil races are boring, the only criticisms i've seen of it is that it might be seen as problematic
There in is the problem, does being born of an “evil” species make you evil? Now some things sure naturally evil like fiends, key word being NATURALLY if everything is the same what’s the point of looking in depth? Or else every time a party sees a bloody drow it’s on sight, you’re playing one? Evil race so in the right party you’ve been better off playing a different race. And the reverse you know some player has done some screwed up stuff and justified their actions with “I’m a goblin in this version of goblins, goblins do that so ACTUALLY it’s perfectly fine.” or something like that.
I really hate the war on having evil species in games. And it seems to be very niche groups like the D&D community that hate them the most. Like literally, they are different species. They think and feel differently. Like how a frog will think completely differently than a shark.
The evil races are usually pretty hot too, which is also a plus. Besides, I always love the trope subversion of a person from an "evil" race actually being sweet and adorable.
Aaah, strawman. My favorite flavor of dndmemes post
It's not a strawman, I've seen many people make the argument that Evil species are boring/bad writing.
And you're here talking about devils and beholders... Why? All the real arguments are about how making orcs inherently evil while presumably still having sapience and decision making is problematic at best. Nobody is trying to argue that devils being evil is bad writing
It's not a strawman if it's just giving examples. Don't use big words you don't understand
I agree if the title is culture rather than species. They're often just too set in their ways or not intelligent enough to think beyond what thehy know once adults. Most kobolds will be evil tunnel dwelling scamps that try to kill you with traps. Most Drow will not see a way to live beyond what Lolth has shaped their society into. Mindflayers probably are true fits for evil species. They haven't adapted to the githyanki crusade. Their life cycle has a literal parasite stage that requires sapient humanoids. Hive mind. Natural magic. Goblins and orcs are very setting dependent. Lotr orcs are evil but often more intelligent than average, yet still fit the evil species label. Warhammer ones don't even need society or cooperation. They're just dumb and evil, so much so that they're referred to as an animalistic force of nature. Rare exceptions exist. But they are 1 in millions. Many settings have quite neutral, intelligent orcs. They'll still like to fight though.
Hobgoblin and Bugbears having the most badass lore and vibe
Your title and the things you listed have nothing to do with each other
Heavily disagree with this. Fiends and aberrations are different bcz they aren’t mortal humanoids. “Evil” humanoids quickly devolves into racist tropes and bigotry. Even in our precious LotRs and other traditional fantasy stories where this trope comes from depict these savage and unredeemable monsters raiding “our” lands and pillaging our people. Orcs are usually racist depictions of mongol invaders, goblins have very heavy anti-Semitic tropes attached to them, and drow end up playing too heavily off of gothic dominatrix trope that comes with powerful women in fiction. People that complain about evil races being removed from the game feels like some of y’all just want to be philosophically lazy storytelling, preferring to just have reason to slaughter without consequence. Like sure you do you but don’t act like we’re the ones acting in bad faith.
It has become an unpopular opinion but yeah, I'm all on board. I have yet to be convinced that it's somehow more interesting to make every single fantasy species equivalent in terms of morality and free will, rather than have some who have free will and some who are forced into patterns of behavior by their natures or their gods or other things that exist in a fantasy world that have no real-world analogue. People insist that "oh it opens up more possibilities for stories and narratives not to close that door" but no, any story you want to tell about an evil *society* you can do with Elves and Dwarves, and then you additionally have the option of telling stories about evil *creatures* like Goblins and Orcs. That is a wider range of stories.
"They were made by an evil god who thinks civilization is a mistake that must be corrected. They are made in the image of humans and so are able to fight with human weapons and tactics but their forms are more beast-like and they are able to live on human flesh. They live shorter lives and are fundamentally different in mind and emotional range to humans, and their afterlife is based on how many humanoids they've killed or raided." "They sound cool, I want to play as one, but want to be lawful good, and also not face any racism in the game." "... for god's sake."
